Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Talzin gets her Dathomir feats.

Battle takes place on Korriban.

Force vs Magic.

Who wins?

Plagueis.

Plagueis via martial capability.

Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis.

Plagueis wins. Talzin has no answer for him once he gets in close.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Force vs Magic.

Also, she had more than enough skill to hold off Windu.

Talzin wins, Talzin = TCW Sidious > TPM Sidious = Plagueis

Actually Mace held her off. All we saw of Talzin dueling Mace was wild slashes (that missed) and saberlocks. Hardly indicative of comparable skill.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Talzin = TCW Sidious

Originally posted by AncientPower
Talzin = TCW Sidious
TCW Sidious > TPM Sidious
TPM Sidious = Plagueis No chance in hell, lol.
Probably not by a great deal, though.
Correct, more or less, hence why the Muun takes this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Talzin gets her Dathomir feats.

Amped Talzin has equated Sidious in Son of Dathomir, how is this even question?

Judging by how she lost to him, not really.

Originally posted by ILS
Judging by how she lost to him, not really. Originally posted by AncientPower
how is this even question?

EDIT: double post

Especially considering even with all of Maul's power she still lost. Did't make sense in the versus thread with her against Sidious, doesn't make sense here.

Sidious had Dooku helping him doe.

You mean after he was tortured, then possessed, then beat up by Sidious?

yes

You people confuse me with Talzin and where she stands on power. X.x

1st it's she can go toe to toe with Sidious and hold off both his and Dooku's Lighting

2nd it's...well she got beat by Sidious so she isn't on his level.

....So what is it?

Originally posted by ILS
yes
I guess that would put Maul about on par with him. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/mmm.gif

You could also just decide for yourself instead of listening to random people on the internet.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I guess that would put Mar about on par with him. http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/mmm.gif I'm just not ignoring his presence.

Well, despite the smiley, I was being serious.

I'm inclined to disagree that a battered, tortured and drained Dooku is on-par with Maul but I suppose there's no way of truly knowing.

Well it's not like it was Maul himself fighting, iirc, just Talzin using his power.

Yeah, Maul was powering her barrier and Dooku/Sids were hitting it with lightning.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
You people confuse me with Talzin and where she stands on power. X.x

1st it's she can go toe to toe with Sidious and hold off both his and Dooku's Lighting

2nd it's...well she got beat by Sidious so she isn't on his level.

....So what is it? It's stated that Talzin can go toe-to-toe with Sidious but that statement doesn't have to be interpreted as them being equal. And when Sidious actually confronts her on Dathomir they initially appear to stalemate, but Sidious quickly gains the upper hand. It's quite obvious he was stronger.

Dooku intervenes to aid Palps but as it's being pointed out, Maul does so for Talzin also, and given that Dooku had been drained of his power, he wouldn't have counted for much.

However it should be remembered that Talzin is actually said to be not at full strength when confronted by Sidious, however she was also on Dathomir, which likely notably amped her powers. So in that respect Dathomir Talzin is just normal Talzin.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's stated that Talzin can go toe-to-toe with Sidious but that statement doesn't have to be interpreted as them being equal. And when Sidious actually confronts her on Dathomir they initially appear to stalemate, but Sidious quickly gains the upper hand. It's quite obvious he was stronger.

Dooku intervenes to aid Palps but as it's being pointed out, Maul does so for Talzin also, and given that Dooku had been drained of his power, he wouldn't have counted for much.

However it should be remembered that Talzin is actually said to be not at full strength when confronted by Sidious, however she was also on Dathomir, which likely notably amped her powers. So in that respect Dathomir Talzin is just normal Talzin.

> Not sure if serious.
> wonders if Beni's read the comic.
> probably not
> smh

Ok, so let's analyse this shit.

Number 1:

The Ritual to awaken Talzin from her spirit form. This is a complex ritual that required the draining of a powerful Force User. A member of the Nightbrother clan says that the ritual will give Talzin all she needs to reach physical form. He also says that Dooku will not survive the encounter.

http://i.gyazo.com/4e35f5ea1d9a726a4734049489077f23.png

Why would he say Dooku would not Survive? Likely because Talzin is stronger than Dooku, and thus all the Force Energy he could give still would not return her to full power, requiring she drain him in his entirety to reach as close as possible.

That leads us into this. The infamous "she could be weakened" quote:
http://i.gyazo.com/6da7c9940e099f1f1f6ad9d4defb7c99.png

The full ritual taken to completion could weaken her, leave her needing to continue to gather her strength. This makes sense, she'd need to gather the power she could not steal from Dooku. Dooku would not return her to her original power levels.

This leads us into point 2:

Talzin's possession of Dooku. Possessing a powerful Force User demands a great deal of effort. Dooku was weak, yes, but it still would have cost her. She could not have controlled him without expending her power, yet she maintained enough of a position to fight in his body.

http://i.gyazo.com/6f26cc852bb99028789509dec0d9286e.jpg

Next, Sidious attacks Dooku's possessed body with Force Lightning:

http://i.gyazo.com/4f170bc50edd6f6996ffdb145eb2747b.png

And it's actually wounding Talzin, given her screams and the fact he attacked her with it to get her out of his body:

http://i.gyazo.com/de461643e3472ed80ff201c64b7e9f96.png

The essential guide to the force says:
"Force Lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens and individual's life"

.... Talzin's reincarnated body was even weaker, and wounded. She then proceeded to cut off her draining of his body faster because she needed to be released from his body.

Moving into point 3:

The duel. Talzin was never being overwhelmed by Sidious alone. People suggest Sidious' lightning was beginning to overpower Talzin's, it was not.

http://i.gyazo.com/647f802069b8552e36d1bd2c478061c9.png

Here they fight evenly.

http://i.gyazo.com/bf48ab9f73f60033059bce1591c1db7d.png

... Still fighting evenly.

http://i.gyazo.com/2b2865e708b921aa76120db25ee16f89.png

That is where people think she was overpowered, but it was merely a perspective shift. Sidious is closer to the eye of the beholder than Talzin is. That's made obvious by the fact the Lightning on the right side of the panel is half the size of Talzin's body on the left, despite it being far thinner in previous panels.

They were still even.

http://i.gyazo.com/75d48eea950091fc5e1e6abef335cc7c.png

That's where Dooku joins in and the rest is history. Maul offers Talzin his powers when Dooku shows up. Noting that this is a Maul who's already fought off and TK'd General Grievous.

It's also made clear that Talzin has power to spare when she actually uses Telekinesis in the form of a Lightning Bolt to strike Maul back into the arms of his forces. It's not exactly like Maul's power was the only thing keeping her alive, since she obviously had power to spare:

http://i.gyazo.com/f15bf518cc6794aefbcde8b9c57a9bfe.png

So suggesting that she wasn't weakened, was overpowered, or needed Maul's help, is all wrong. Glad we could settle that.

Damn, that post actually raises a lot of good points. Talzin likely wasn't at her best there.

Nice job, Sel.

Sel's post is basically my feelings on the Talzin issue.

Originally posted by Selenial
Number 1:

The Ritual to awaken Talzin from her spirit form. This is a complex ritual that required the draining of a powerful Force User. A member of the Nightbrother clan says that the ritual will give Talzin all she needs to reach physical form. He also says that Dooku will not survive the encounter.

http://i.gyazo.com/4e35f5ea1d9a726a4734049489077f23.png

Why would he say Dooku would not Survive? Likely because Talzin is stronger than Dooku, and thus all the Force Energy he could give still would not return her to full power, requiring she drain him in his entirety to reach as close as possible.

That leads us into this. The infamous "she could be weakened" quote:
http://i.gyazo.com/6da7c9940e099f1f1f6ad9d4defb7c99.png

The full ritual taken to completion could weaken her, leave her needing to continue to gather her strength. This makes sense, she'd need to gather the power she could not steal from Dooku. Dooku would not return her to her original power levels.

This leads us into point 2:

Talzin's possession of Dooku. Possessing a powerful Force User demands a great deal of effort. Dooku was weak, yes, but it still would have cost her. She could not have controlled him without expending her power, yet she maintained enough of a position to fight in his body.

http://i.gyazo.com/6f26cc852bb99028789509dec0d9286e.jpg

Next, Sidious attacks Dooku's possessed body with Force Lightning:

http://i.gyazo.com/4f170bc50edd6f6996ffdb145eb2747b.png

And it's actually wounding Talzin, given her screams and the fact he attacked her with it to get her out of his body:

http://i.gyazo.com/de461643e3472ed80ff201c64b7e9f96.png

The essential guide to the force says:
"Force Lightning causes excruciating pain as it weakens and individual's life"

.... Talzin's reincarnated body was even weaker, and wounded. She then proceeded to cut off her draining of his body faster because she needed to be released from his body.That's all well and good but it fails to acknowledge for the nexus, which as strong in the dark side and particularly the Living Force, would have amplified her powers considerably. Remember Talzin, as it would appear, draws on her power externally. So a external source deeply connected to the Force would have increased her ability much more than any other individual.

I also find it unlikely that Sidious' Force lightning would have had any effect on Talzin. Force lightning weakens life not because it has draining qualities, but simply because it damages the physical form, killing it, and so weakens that forms ability to channel the Force. So by leaving Dooku's body she should have negated any effects it had on her power, now channeled through her own body. Dooku is the only victim here.Originally posted by Selenial
http://i.gyazo.com/2b2865e708b921aa76120db25ee16f89.png

That is where people think she was overpowered, but it was merely a perspective shift. Sidious is closer to the eye of the beholder than Talzin is. That's made obvious by the fact the Lightning on the right side of the panel is half the size of Talzin's body on the left, despite it being far thinner in previous panels.

They were still even.I disagree here, while yes the point is valid in terms of the lightning, if you look at Talzin herself you can see she's gone from an upright position to being hunched, as if being pushed back, because she was.

That said when it comes to comics, perspective if how the artists convey messages, the perspective her suggests Talzin is losing, because that is the message trying to be conveyed. Force lightning oscillates in size and number, especially if more power is put into it, that could be all we are seeing here.I don't remember suggesting that Talzin needed Maul's help, but it remains a fact that Maul offered him her power, which she was presumably wise enough to use, which would have allowed her to last as long as she did. However its inconsequential, given as soon as Dooku intervenes her lightning is routed.

Thanks for conceding Beni!










Oh wait, what's that? You weren't aware you were conceding? Ok then allow me to elaborate!

Even if your argument was valid, Sidious was amped as well by the fact Dathomir has been staring in numerous sources as a nexus of Dark Side energy. It's not valid! The thread maker clearly indicated that Talzin's Dathomir feats apply.

Therefore she was weakened, still matched Sidious. A full strength Talzin would be more than capable of beating Plagueis with the force.

But I might as well reply to the rest. No, Force Lightning weakens life. That's confirmed in quite a lot of sources, hence why it's far more dangerous than actual Lightning. Not to mention she still would have undergone excruciating pain.

As for Talzin's stance, yep, she was hunched forward. As was Sidious, actually. They were both putting their full effort into it, you'd have to be mentally retarded to think equal combatants go in for a fight and don't give it their all.

And that's the most bullshit explanation of perspective I've ever seen. No, they changed the perspective because they needed to show the Lightning battle was still going on. They had however shown a neutral shot 4 times by then, why do it again?

And again, read the damn comic before you reply to me. Maul's power was used at the exact time Dooku launched his assault, your point is behind moot, it's flat out wrong.

So sassy.

Originally posted by Selenial
Even if your argument was valid, Sidious was amped as well by the fact Dathomir has been staring in numerous sources as a nexus of Dark Side energy. It's not valid! The thread maker clearly indicated that Talzin's Dathomir feats apply.Considering drawing, or at least to any notable degree, is an active rather than passive action, I don't think we can say that for certain. Sure Sidious could have drawn on Dathomir for power, but that doesn't mean he did and no indication is given, it could well be that Sidious was confident enough in his own abilities to not deem it necessary. After all at no point did Talzin have the advantage.

That said it still remains a fact that Talzin would benefit more. "Dathomir feats apply" is also kinda vague, does that mean Talzin is has the Dathomir amp and is at full strength, or is merely a disclaimer that her Dathomir feats are not exempt from consideration?You might, as you're argument is only valid if you can prove Talzin matched Sidious.
EDIT: I see your point, could you provide these sources though?

The one you did doesn't imply weakens = drain. Really I fail to see how it does full stop.

As for pain, I think Talzin is capable of moving beyond that, if not using it to her advantage. Not really...

They are perfectly upright here:

http://embed.gyazo.com/bf48ab9f73f60033059bce1591c1db7d.png

And then Talzin appears hunched as if reeling. Difference is pretty clear.

http://embed.gyazo.com/2b2865e708b921aa76120db25ee16f89.pngI won't waste time debating a matter of opinion.Sel, I assumed you were joking at first, but it would now appear that you have indeed forgotten the time you accused me of not reading the comic, and I corrected you. I do so again.

That sad no need for an ad hominem any how. Try to be civil.

Not sure what you mean though, the point is Talzin lost the contest of lightning as soon as Dooku intervened, so it's not proof she can contend with their combined raw output irregardless of Maul's involvement, which she could have only benefited from.

EDIT: Double backwards triple post?

EDIT: Double post again

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Considering drawing, or at least to any notable degree, is an active rather than passive action, I don't think we can say that for certain. Sure Sidious could have drawn on Dathomir for power, but that doesn't mean he did and no indication is given, it could well be that Sidious was confident enough in his own abilities to not deem it necessary. After all at no point did Talzin have the advantage.

That said it still remains a fact that Talzin would benefit more. "Dathomir feats apply" is also kinda vague, does that mean Talzin is has the Dathomir amp and is at full strength, or is merely a disclaimer that her Dathomir feats are not exempt from consideration?

> implies there's nothing saying he draws on the Nexus meaning he didn't.
>fails to apply that logic to talzin

Logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, Beni. And again, if they're both exerting full power and failing to overcome the other, they're going to tap into anything they can. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing and admit defeat, you're not exactly helping your reputation.



Which I already have.

Am I allowed to use Aurbere's trademark "soon"? I'm on my phone and nowhere near any of my sourcebooks, or the computer which stores a lot of my torrents.



No, Talzin is hunched as if she's giving it her all. Exactly like Sidious is:

http://i.gyazo.com/66dddaa7abb39819c25c3246fb7fbd45.png
Noting that this panel is between the two you showed, perhaps indicating they both stepped up their power.



Except you've time and again proven you lack a basic understanding of the comic. If you've read it, I implore you to read it again.

And I'm not sure what that mahooooooosive Strawman is for either. Why does it matter if she lost when Dooku intervened? No one is saying Talzin > Sidious + Dooku, we're arguing that a Dathomir Talzin is an equal to TCW Sidious. Perhaps you should stop throwing out entirely irrelevant points in an attempt to distract from the fact you're rapidly losing ground

Originally posted by Selenial
> implies there's nothing saying he draws on the Nexus meaning he didn't.
>fails to apply that logic to talzin

Logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, Beni. And again, if they're both exerting full power and failing to overcome the other, they're going to tap into anything they can. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing and admit defeat, you're not exactly helping your reputation.Actually I was taking into account when Dooku is told he is at the "heart of Mother Talzin's power" - the ensuing ritual implying of the Force. That and its the only fathomable reason Dooku would be brought to Dathomir. On top of that we have Talzin herself saying she operates best on Dathomir, and she was fighting for her life against an opponent she is herself in awe of.

As for the second part, that would only be the case if we accept your version of the events i.e. that Sidious was stalemating until Dooku's intervension. Way I see it Talzin not only never had the advantage, but Sidious quickly got the upper hand, it was only a matter of time until she died.

Also more ad hominem? I'll certainly withdraw from the debate if this keeps up, if that's your aim.I am genuinely interested so yes.Except Talzin's leaning back, if not looking as if she'll fall over, while Sidious is leaning forward. And yeah I'm aware, which is why I interpreted it as Sidious pressing the attack, and Talzin recoiling.In which it's irrelevant - the fact that we are not even discussing it as this point does yes, makes it even more irrelevant. That tends to happen when you cherry pick.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Actually I was taking into account when Dooku is told he is at the "heart of Mother Talzin's power" - the ensuing ritual implying of the Force. That and its the only fathomable reason Dooku would be brought to Dathomir. On top of that we have Talzin herself saying she operates best on Dathomir, and she was fighting for her life against an opponent she is herself in awe of.

As for the second part, that would only be the case if we accept your version of the events i.e. that Sidious was stalemating until Dooku's intervension. Way I see it Talzin not only never had the advantage, but Sidious quickly got the upper hand, it was only a matter of time until she died.

Also more ad hominem? I'll certainly withdraw from the debate if this keeps up, if that's your aim.
None of the opening part has been denied in any way. You're conveniently drawing the debate to Dathomir again when you know Dathomir doesn't matter. That's the sign of someone who's arguing for the sake of arguing, when you steer the conversation entirely away from the debate in the hopes that no one will notice.


I rotated the image for you.

http://i.gyazo.com/ee27c1e2764780e19378b20bb457c772.png

Please. Tell me more how Talzin is leaning back and about to fall over. I'm really interested in your argument



So what you're saying is Maul = Dooku perfectly in force powers? Because unless that's true, your ridiculous supposition is entirely irrelevant to the debate at hand, as I have said. Numerous times.

http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

Would say Sel is in the lead atm. 1-0. Let's see if Beni can turn it around for the second half.

Bring your own beverages you pieces of shit.

Originally posted by Selenial
None of the opening part has been denied in any way. You're conveniently drawing the debate to Dathomir again when you know Dathomir doesn't matter. That's the sign of someone who's arguing for the sake of arguing, when you steer the conversation entirely away from the debate in the hopes that no one will notice.Yet I'd remind you it was you who brought up Sidious' amp in the first place and accused me of making a logical fallacy. I won't apologise for defending my argument, especially when you were the one with initiated the discussion.

On top of that, I also felt that this was a general debate surrounding the events of that engagement, and started as an answer to Wolf's question of where Talzin stands on power. So methinks you're being overly dismissive, this is perfectly relevant.

But if you concede that Talzin was amped to a greater extent in comparison to Palpatine, who may not have been at all, I'll happily move on.

On another note, how are those sources coming along?Mmm, I tried that myself. However you'll notice that by rotating the image in that manner the lightning trajectory is no longer vertical i.e. it's not supposed to go that way. There is also the added issue that in the panel immediately below it she has the same stance:

https://i.imgur.com/XAqxHo4.png

Which you'll find looks quite silly if you try and rotate it. It also makes it easier to see that Talzin is recoiling rather than pressing the attack.

Altogether, I feel you're trying to "skew" the facts in you're favour. Oh too funny.
To be quite honest, I have no idea what you're talking about.
You know I seem to remember saying the same thing.Originally posted by Beniboybling
In which it's irrelevant - the fact that we are not even discussing it as this point does yes, makes it even more irrelevant. That tends to happen when you cherry pick. http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/3024136639.gif

You sure you responded to the right post?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet I'd remind you it was you who brought up Sidious' amp in the first place and accused me of making a logical fallacy. I won't apologise for defending my argument, especially when you were the one with initiated the discussion.

On top of that, I also felt that this was a general debate surrounding the events of that engagement, and started as an answer to Wolf's question of where Talzin stands on power. So methinks you're being overly dismissive, this is perfectly relevant.

But if you concede that Talzin was amped to a greater extent in comparison to Palpatine, who may not have been at all, I'll happily move on.

*sigh*

Ok so let's take this down to an even simpler level, because apparently you're still not getting it. Which is kind of impressive.

We are discussing Dathomir Talzin. This thread is regarding a full strength Dathomir Talzin. To try and talk about her being amped on Dathomir could not be more irrelevant. Whether she was or not does not matter. What matters is that Dathomir!Talzin faced off against an amped Sidious and was holding her own.

No one cares if you think Dathomir amped her. Like genuinely no-one because it's an irrelevant bias that seeks to only distract from every other area of the debate that you're currently being destroyed in.



Haven't even looked, shame you apparently don't have your own sources




How does that stance say she's recoiling? Why does it matter since the lightning fight is still even anyway? Unless you're saying a Talzin who's not giving it her all stalemates Sidious?

No, it's just called standing up straight Not to mention in the panel where she's facing off against Dooku and Sidious, which is when she begins to get overwhelmed, she's standing forcing forward.

http://i.gyazo.com/41f62b8ea51971b29a1ccfbbdf74e117.png

Unless you're trying to tell me that Talzin wasn't straining herself? Or that she was somehow pressing an advantage in this panel?

What's more, is that when she gets weak, she doesn't start moving backward or fall over like you're trying to weirdly suggest. She falls forward onto her knees.

http://i.gyazo.com/5331d4901fe7124a3cb3bf336c88ecba.png



No way... a Debater's trying to prove a point? Man Beni, I think you're onto something here!



"to be quite honest" I'm not even remotely surprised. What I'm saying is that when Maul and Dooku enter the engagement, there's far too many opinion based variables to take into account. Nothing conclusive about power levels can be drawn from that engagement.

I was merely responding to your cherry pick comment, explaining why any attempt to actually use that area of the fight is idiotic.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Actually Mace held her off. All we saw of Talzin dueling Mace was wild slashes (that missed) and saberlocks. Hardly indicative of comparable skill.

Their duel lasted like 45 seconds bro. It was a stalemate.

Also, since when are wide arcs indicative of a bad duelist? Shii-Cho would like a word.

Not to mention, you can't exactly use the art style of TCW to show someone's a bad duelist. Grievous and Ventress have both used equally wide slashes like that in TCW, we don't call them terrible. The outcome was the same either way, she held Windu off.

Not that I think she's a comparable duelist, but she did well.

That's Fisto's thing doe.

Originally posted by Selenial
*sigh*

Ok so let's take this down to an even simpler level, because apparently you're still not getting it. Which is kind of impressive.

We are discussing Dathomir Talzin. This thread is regarding a full strength Dathomir Talzin. To try and talk about her being amped on Dathomir could not be more irrelevant. Whether she was or not does not matter. What matters is that Dathomir!Talzin faced off against an amped Sidious and was holding her own.

No one cares if you think Dathomir amped her. Like genuinely no-one because it's an irrelevant bias that seeks to only distract from every other area of the debate that you're currently being destroyed in.If you're not interested in having the discussion, then you shouldn't have engaged it in, but you did. I raised the point that the Dathomir amp cancels out her weaknesses making this a normal portrayal of her abilities, and you rejoined by saying I was incorrect. Is it relevant to Plagueis vs Talzin? No. But I never raised it as such.

Saying it's irrelevant and "no-one" cares is just a red herring. You appeared to care a moment ago when you responded to my points in the belief you were right, but as soon as I prove otherwise is not relevant? OK. But you know if you just conceded the point we could have moved on already, but instead you decided to make it a mud-slinging contest.I'd appreciate it if you did, firstly because it's needed to support your argument, and secondly because I've only come across the one source you raised.
Recoil means to "shrink back", so her bending away rather than forward in this manner seems like a recoil to me. But granted her stance changes throughout. It's just my perspective really, I'll concede that it isn't of much importance as she's still holding her own.It's a joke, laugh silly.Yeah but you've got the wrong end of the stick here, and you're just getting more and more tangled up. I don't disagree with that at all, and that was never my point. My point merely was that as soon as Dooku steps in, the lighting engagement is over, what happens next is therefore irrelevant as a determiner or the difference in power between Sidious and Talzin or even Sidious + Dooku, and irrelevant to this debate. Ironically you took this to mean the exact opposite, I apologise for the confusion.Originally posted by Selenial
Also, since when are wide arcs indicative of a bad duelist? Shii-Cho would like a word.

Not to mention, you can't exactly use the art style of TCW to show someone's a bad duelist. Grievous and Ventress have both used equally wide slashes like that in TCW, we don't call them terrible. The outcome was the same either way, she held Windu off.

Not that I think she's a comparable duelist, but she did well. Eh Fisto looked a lot more impressive than Talzin, just looked like flailing to me. That said it appears that the force of Talzin's attacks is just too much for Windu, which is why he retreats, so still pretty impressive. She might even have beaten him.