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So the general consensus seems to place DE Sidious slightly above Valkorian and Vitiate a bit above TPM Palpatine. Which team takes this fight?

DE solos.

I assume SoR Vitate. TMP Sids~SoR Vitate and DE Sidious>Valkorion.

Team V.

Originally posted by Azronger
DE solos.

Dumb dumb stupid.

Originally posted by Azronger
DE solos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4gJsKZvqE4&t=0m49s

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dumb dumb stupid.

Valkorion and Vitiate.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Valkorion and Vitiate.

Team 1.

Originally posted by Azronger
DE solos.
Where do you rank Valk?

Team 2

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Where do you rank Valk?

Above Plagueis, below Yoda, as an overall combatant.

Originally posted by Azronger
DE solos.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I assume SoR Vitate. TMP Sids~SoR Vitate and DE Sidious>Valkorion.

hysterical hysterical hysterical hysterical hysterical

Team two solidly. TPM Sheev is too weak to really make any difference here other than delay the inevitable.

Originally posted by Azronger
DE solos. Nope.

TPM Sidious isn't beating Vitiate either.

Originally posted by Jmanghan
Nope.

TPM Sidious isn't beating Vitiate either.

Wonderful, reason has returned.

Valkorion would nearly solo, but with Vitiate here, it turns into a stompfest.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Valkorion and Vitiate.

TPM Palpatine kills Vitiate, honestly. Then they team Valk

Originally posted by Tondemonai
hysterical hysterical hysterical hysterical hysterical

Team two solidly. TPM Sheev is too weak to really make any difference here other than delay the inevitable.
TPM Sidious could very well beat Vitate, and hold off Valk, while DE beats Vitate with medium difficulty, or Valk with a bit more diff.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
TPM Sidious could very well beat Vitate, and hold off Valk, while DE beats Vitate with medium difficulty, or Valk with a bit more diff.

Vitiate is stated to be infinitely stronger than SoR Revan (iirc), who I personally hold to be in the same tier as Plageis in Force prowess, and TPM Sheev isn't really that much stronger than him. By that logic, I see no reason for TPM Palps to be able to beat Ziost Vity. DE vs Valky is a different story, but I'm too tired to go over that one now

TPM Sidious surpassed Plagueis, so he isn't out of his league against Vitiate at all. And if it's novel Vitiate, I'm backing TPM Sheev. SWTOR Vitiate, depends.

DE Sidious is the strongest one here, though, and team 1 doesn't rely on distance-fighting nearly as much. The Palpatines take it.

I agree that Novel would lose. I'm assuming this is Ziost Vitiate, in which case there's a much larger general disparity between him and TPM Sid than DE and Valk, hence my opinion of team Tenebrae winning. I'm sure you agree at least on that. Given that we don't know the starting distance I can see the Sheev's rushing and getting an early advantage, but Valkorion has his teleportation advantage, so assuming that he didn't acquire that power after Ziost then we can easily assume that Vitiate is capable of the same, though there's no solid reason the believe this assumption.

Even if Vitate is >TPM Sidious, the gap isn't very big, imo, as Prime Vitate is <Valkorion, who is <RotS Sidious, who is <<DE Sidious. The gap between Valkorion and DE Sidious is far bigger than the gap between Vitate and TPM.

Nah its not. Valkorion is superior to every version of sidious other than de where it's pretty equal.

I could see an argument being made for Valk being >=RotS Sidious, but he isn't equal with DE Sids, he is his inferior in nearly every aspect.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
I could see an argument being made for Valk being >=RotS Sidious, but he isn't equal with DE Sids, he is his inferior in nearly every aspect. Nah he's equal to DE Sidious. See how my opinion means as little as yours without an argument?

Here an small case for Palpatine:
His force storms are just more impressive, than anything Valk has ever done. He mused that he could destroy his Palace with a thought. Other than most other Sith, Palpatine know his capabilities-he knows that he can't control his Force Storms in RotJ, tried to flee from Yoda, etc. He is also vastly superior to Vader, who has immense TK feats.
TK he dominated Byss, mindwiped million or even billions of people in a very short time(seconds, most likely). He also controlled Vader and DE Luke.
IIRC he oneshotted Galen with his lightning, killed 100 Stormtroopers and nearly broke Yodas tutinamis.

I think valkorion's mind control and pretty instant ritual on ziost were more impressive. The same can be said about his utter destruction of the dark council centuries prior.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I think valkorion's mind control and pretty instant ritual on ziost were more impressive. The same can be said about his utter destruction of the dark council centuries prior.
Which mindcontrol?
Also, his Ziost feat was likely with prep.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nah its not. Valkorion is superior to every version of sidious other than de where it's pretty equal.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Here an small case for Palpatine:
His force storms are just more impressive, than anything Valk has ever done. He mused that he could destroy his Palace with a thought. Other than most other Sith, Palpatine know his capabilities-he knows that he can't control his Force Storms in RotJ, tried to flee from Yoda, etc. He is also vastly superior to Vader, who has immense TK feats.
TK he dominated Byss, mindwiped million or even billions of people in a very short time(seconds, most likely). He also controlled Vader and DE Luke.
IIRC he oneshotted Galen with his lightning, killed 100 Stormtroopers and nearly broke Yodas tutinamis.

If you're going to copy/paste Elimist's post, at least give him credit

On another note, that's all post-RoTS stuff, nothing backs your argument for RoTS Sheev>Vitiate, let alone Valkorion.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
If you're going to copy/paste Elimist's post, at least give him credit

On another note, that's all post-RoTS stuff, nothing backs your argument for RoTS Sheev>Vitiate, let alone Valkorion.
Lol, I know most off rhis stuff from my head. Naturally Ellimist has covered most off this in his post, and It is kinda unecessary that I make a case for Sids again, against Beefy, when he dabated against Beefy.

I just discussed DE Sids>Valk. Also, I am still waiting for feats, that put him Valk on DE Sidious level. RotS Sidious is stated to be the mostbpowerful Sith ever, of course he is more powerful than the Sith Emperor(Vitate, not Valk). By RotS, he still nearly overpowered Yodas Tutinamis and was vastly siperior to the likes of Dooku.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
I agree that Novel would lose. I'm assuming this is Ziost Vitiate, in which case there's a much larger general disparity between him and TPM Sid than DE and Valk, hence my opinion of team Tenebrae winning. I'm sure you agree at least on that. Given that we don't know the starting distance I can see the Sheev's rushing and getting an early advantage, but Valkorion has his teleportation advantage, so assuming that he didn't acquire that power after Ziost then we can easily assume that Vitiate is capable of the same, though there's no solid reason the believe this assumption.

100 meter starting distance. Fight takes place on a flat plain. Prime Vitiate.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
100 meter starting distance. Fight takes place on a flat plain. Prime Vitiate.

Oh then team 2, no question. Might as well make it Force only, sabers are never going to be involved at that distance.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Lol, I know most off rhis stuff from my head. Naturally Ellimist has covered most off this in his post, and It is kinda unecessary that I make a case for Sids again, against Beefy, when he dabated against Beefy.

I just discussed DE Sids>Valk. Also, I am still waiting for feats, that put him Valk on DE Sidious level. RotS Sidious is stated to be the mostbpowerful Sith ever, of course he is more powerful than the Sith Emperor(Vitate, not Valk). By RotS, he still nearly overpowered Yodas Tutinamis and was vastly siperior to the likes of Dooku.

I'll give you my argument when I'm out if school

Valk and Vitiate

Since the starting distance is 100 meters, it's easy to assume that lightsabers will not be used at any point during this fight. IIRC there were no quotes about Sheev being the "strongest Sith who ever lived" by the time of TPM, other than the claims he made himself. It's foolish to take them at face value, given that he said these things in the heat of an intense moment (his killing of Plagueis). There's no reason for us to believe this claim, given that it is from a Sith who was proud that he had succeeded in killing his master. It's clear he was gloating, not making an educated statement. The only time we have real concrete statements of his being the greatest Sith ever come around RoTS, from reliable/credible sources. By this logic we can dismiss the "greatest Sith ever" wank.

The best feats we have for Sidious at this point are his small battles in the Plagueis novel, and having been stated to have surpassed his master. In Force only, I have Plagueis in the same tier as SoR Revan, who has been stated to be solidly inferior to Vitiate before the events of Ziost (granted this was only by days). Additionally, with regards to Force prowess, the Dread Masters are collectively comparable to Plagueis (still inferior, but not by a huge margin). Said Dread Masters were said to be "insignificant compared to the Emperor." We can draw from this that Plagueis is very noticeably below Vitiate. Logically speaking, we have no evidence that supports or reason to believe Sidious being as far above Plagueis. As a result, we can deduce that Vitiate is superior to Sidious as of TPM.

For those (like myself) who don't like going by statements alone, here are some feats for Vitiate that are superior to all of Sidious' own by this point. His domination of Revan (after actually taking the fight seriously) is a good example. Another is his complete domination of the strike team of HoT, Tol Braga, and others completely effortlessly. Sheev has done nothing of this level by TPM.

I'm not even going to bother getting into DE and Valkorion. That goes back and forth endlessly, but in this case there's really no arguing that DE can take out Valky before Vitiate overwhelms TPM Sheev.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Valkorion and Vitiate.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Since the starting distance is 100 meters, it's easy to assume that lightsabers will not be used at any point during this fight. IIRC there were no quotes about Sheev being the "strongest Sith who ever lived" by the time of TPM, other than the claims he made himself. It's foolish to take them at face value, given that he said these things in the heat of an intense moment (his killing of Plagueis). There's no reason for us to believe this claim, given that it is from a Sith who was proud that he had succeeded in killing his master. It's clear he was gloating, not making an educated statement. The only time we have real concrete statements of his being the greatest Sith ever come around RoTS, from reliable/credible sources. By this logic we can dismiss the "greatest Sith ever" wank.

The best feats we have for Sidious at this point are his small battles in the Plagueis novel, and having been stated to have surpassed his master. In Force only, I have Plagueis in the same tier as SoR Revan, who has been stated to be solidly inferior to Vitiate before the events of Ziost (granted this was only by days). Additionally, with regards to Force prowess, the Dread Masters are collectively comparable to Plagueis (still inferior, but not by a huge margin). Said Dread Masters were said to be "insignificant compared to the Emperor." We can draw from this that Plagueis is very noticeably below Vitiate. Logically speaking, we have no evidence that supports or reason to believe Sidious being as far above Plagueis. As a result, we can deduce that Vitiate is superior to Sidious as of TPM.

For those (like myself) who don't like going by statements alone, here are some feats for Vitiate that are superior to all of Sidious' own by this point. His domination of Revan (after actually taking the fight seriously) is a good example. Another is his complete domination of the strike team of HoT, Tol Braga, and others completely effortlessly. Sheev has done nothing of this level by TPM.

I'm not even going to bother getting into DE and Valkorion. That goes back and forth endlessly, but in this case there's really no arguing that DE can take out Valky before Vitiate overwhelms TPM Sheev.

Would you be down for a 1v1 debate with me on Sheev/Valkoriate?

It seems as though the DP backcover quote is being taken nowadays, in which case Plagueis would be canonically more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. Sidious surpassing Plagueis, then, would put an end to this debate.

And logically powerscaling from there, DE Sidious > Valkorion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems as though the DP backcover quote is being taken nowadays, in which case Plagueis would be canonically more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. Sidious surpassing Plagueis, then, would put an end to this debate.

And logically powerscaling from there, DE Sidious > Valkorion.

Nobody is taking it like that so that wouldn't work.

There are some that do, actually.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There are some that do, actually.

Good for those select few. Unfortunately the quote isn't objective or all encompassing so it's just confirmation bias for those who want to take it as gospel, and just a quote for others.

What's the standard for objectivity or encompassment here? I assume that your dismissal of such quotes would also apply to Vitiate's ones?

Originally posted by SunRazer
What's the standard for objectivity or encompassment here? I assume that your dismissal of such quotes would also apply to Vitiate's ones?

Yup because I want to establish a certain pattern here, especially if in future SWTOR chapters we get more and more Valkorion quotes. Otherwise I will throw it in the face of those taking Palpatine quotes at face value.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yup because I want to establish a certain pattern here, especially if in future SWTOR chapters we get more and more Valkorion quotes. Otherwise I will throw it in the face of those taking Palpatine quotes at face value.

Valkorion's quotes in SWTOR would never apply to any characters past that time, so Plagueis and Palpatine and most of the characters we debate here would be safely excluded.

Palpatine has quotes from 2015 declaring him to be the most powerful Sith Lord, but regardless, sources do not have expiry dates. They have to be outright contradicted to be rendered null and void, not just because new characters are created. The way continuity works is that everything new is created under the assumption that it follows continuity unless that continuity is explicitly changed, which, as of yet, it hasn't been. Palpatine's been touted as the most powerful Sith Lord ever for decades, by a wide variety of authors and numerous different types of sources. It's one of the most unanimously supported facts in continuity.

And none of the Plagueis/Palpatine quotes would apply to Vitiate, SWTOR, or anything written after the quotes..



They don't have to be explicitly contradicted, they can be implicitly contradicted (which has been done by Vitiate/Valkorion). And if you're going to sit there and say quotes are all encompassing even before newer information is given, then if a quote arises for Valkorion being the most powerful "of all time", it would include Plagueis/Palpatine and would be just as valid.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
And none of the Plagueis/Palpatine quotes would apply to Vitiate, SWTOR, or anything written after the quotes..

No, because the sources for Vitiate's supremacy encompass only up to TOR (in-universe), and not after, hence, Plagueis and Palpatine are unaffected. Plagueis and Palpatine's quotes, on the other hand, do encompass history up to their time, which thus includes Valkorion. You also failed to account for the fact that Plagueis' quote came in 2012, which was after Vitiate's SWTOR debut, and Palpatine's quote came in 2015, which is also after Vitiate's appearance.



Vitiate doesn't implicitly contradict anything.

If Vitiate gets a quote from a source that does include Palpatine, and the quote says that he's the most powerful, then yes, it's a valid retcon and he's then officially more powerful than Palpatine. But such a quote is yet to exist, so Palpatine's supremacy remains the one supported by material, and it's so widely supported that you can't really argue against it. Such an argument would mean a denial of decades of established (and as of yet, uncontradicted) continuity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Would you be down for a 1v1 debate with me on Sheev/Valkoriate?

At some point in the near future, yes.

Should be interesting.

If it actually happens, sure. Most people agree but when it comes time they aren't interested. Cough; Warehouse.

Want to do a debate with me quanchi? I'd do canon Anakin vs someone of your choosing.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Want to do a debate with me quanchi? I'd do canon Anakin vs someone of your choosing. I've had my fair share of Anakin Skywalker. What other characters did you have in mind ?

Team 1 solidly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I've had my fair share of Anakin Skywalker. What other characters did you have in mind ?

Canon Grievous?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems as though the DP backcover quote is being taken nowadays, in which case Plagueis would be canonically more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. Sidious surpassing Plagueis, then, would put an end to this debate.

And logically powerscaling from there, DE Sidious > Valkorion.
So Darth Bane > Vitiate?

People tend to forget that Backcover hype is more of a marketing statement rather being an accurate assessment of the characters and lore in question.

Personally I've revised my stance to take quotes, including back cover quotes, into account if they confirm an issue that I was ambiguous on. I.E. Caedus and Vader after learning a little more about Caedus's capabilities and Plagueis and Vitiate. This applies to general quotes I didn't take into account before such as Vitiate > Nihilus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So Darth Bane > Vitiate?

People tend to forget that Backcover hype is more of a marketing statement rather being an accurate assessment of the characters and lore in question.

Stop using the Darth Bane quote. It only refers to dark side masters of his time, which were few and far between. It doesn't refer to all of history whatsoever.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Stop using the Darth Bane quote. It only refers to dark side masters of his time, which were few and far between. It doesn't refer to all of history whatsoever.
Sorry, that quote is written in a way that it can be interpreted in different ways. You are running out of excuses here.

Do also keep in mind that Vitiate has been hyped as the most powerful Force-user ever.

I suppose that you understand that the word 'ever' is all-encompassing?

Running out of excuses? You haven't proved anything.

Yes, Vitiate's been referred to as the most powerful ever - in sources that only go up to his time. None of those sources ever refer to anything past TOR, because they're in-universe. Palpatine's quotes, on the other hand, are newer and do refer up to and of his time.

Aren't Sidious quotes out-of-Universe, and consist all time? Also things which come in 7569ABY or so, when Darth Rancor rules the Universe and fights against James Skywalker.

I want to know exactly what quotes include Vitiate/Valkorion. Please provide those. And theoretically if someone is called the most powerful but someone else shows up that appears more impressive, that's can be considered an implicit contradiction. So far I have seen exactly zero quotes that include Valkorion/Vitiate.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
And theoretically if someone is called the most powerful but someone else shows up that appears more impressive, that's can be considered an implicit contradiction.

The only way that would be considered a contradiction is if feats in SW were reliably consistent. As you point out all the time about Luke and the ancient Sith, feats aren't consistent.

So please explain to me how notoriously inconsistent things like feats in SW can contradict Word of God.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only way that would be considered a contradiction is if feats in SW were reliably consistent. As you point out all the time about Luke and the ancient Sith, feats aren't consistent.

So please explain to me how notoriously inconsistent things like feats in SW can contradict Word of God.

What do I point out about Luke and the Ancient sith, exactly? Also I'm waiting to see the quotes that include both Vitiate/Valkorion, rather than assuming these quotes automatically include every character created after the quotes.

You pointed out, that Lukes feats are very inconcistent, lol.
Also, iirc, the last Sidious>all quote was from 2015.

Luke's feats are notoriously inconsistent and the ancient Sith have a glaring scarcity of feats. A vast number of Force users have better feats than Ludo Kressh's brick throwing, for example.

But in those contexts, you don't think feats matter. Here you say that feats do matter and matter enough that despite their inconsistencies, they can contradict Word of God.

They don't reconcile.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
You pointed out, that Lukes feats are very inconcistent, lol.
Also, iirc, the last Sidious>all quote was from 2015.

No, I pointed out Luke's inconsistent combat showings as proof that he's not going to ragdoll everybody. That doesn't negate his overall superiority. That's completely different. But since this devolved into trying to use quotes to establish superiority, Valkorion wasn't created until 2016.


See above. Also still waiting on these quotes.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I want to know exactly what quotes include Vitiate/Valkorion. Please provide those. And theoretically if someone is called the most powerful but someone else shows up that appears more impressive, that's can be considered an implicit contradiction. So far I have seen exactly zero quotes that include Valkorion/Vitiate.

Just about all of Sidious' most powerful quotes include history up to his time, which would include Valkorion.

As for the 2015 quote, here it is:



Not that I should be forced to resort to it, since there's no direct contradiction between Valkorion and any of Palpatine's older supremacy quotes, such as:

He still would do
And? Valkorion is Vitate, only in another body. Thats like saying DE Palpatne isn't Palpatine. Also, Sidious feats are better.

Didn't Arcann claim that Valkorion was weaker than before? Even if not, I recall Ziost only being there to return Vitiate to full power. Is there anything that conclusively shows Valkorion's superiority to Vitiate?

Regardless, until Valkorion receives such an accolade that would contradict decades of source material written by a dozen different authors, I'm inclined to support Palpatine's claim to supremacy here.

As I said before, sources have no expiry date or statute of limitations. They can't be passively retconned just because newer things are introduced - such things are introduced under the expectation that they follow continuity unless otherwise shown (ie. a direct retcon). They can only be actively retconned with newer, directly contradicting statements.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
See above. Also still waiting on these quotes.

Razer provided the quotes, not me. I don't have to prove someone else's claim. You also dodged the ancient Sith.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Just about all of Sidious' most powerful quotes include history up to his time, which would include Valkorion.

As for the 2015 quote, here it is:



Not that I should be forced to resort to it, since there's no direct contradiction between Valkorion and any of Palpatine's older supremacy quotes, such as:















Most of those quotes have been debunked over the years as either incomplete, not including all the characters after the fact, etc. I'm not sure where the Legends quote falls in terms of canon, nor the Insider. The Vader quote seems to be his musings rather than an overall declaration. The greatest sith master quote I remember but am also not sure how that all encompassing or even includes Valkorion who, while born a sith, isn't one by the time he takes up his new name. The DE quote appears to be Luke's musings and is incredibly outdated, same with the NEC. So like I said, most of these can easily be debated. If you want to go with feats, DE Sidious is probably the closest in terms of having overall supremacy but these quotes mose definitely do not provide end all be all supremacy for Palpatine.


Arcann claimed a lot of things. Valkorion IS Vitiate in full power. He regained his full strength after Ziost and disappeared into Wild Space, shedding his Vitiate name. "Valkorion" appears to be very different from Vitiate in his understanding of the force. He's also a spirit form so that makes things considerably different when putting him in a versus battle.


What exactly did I dodge? You claimed I used Luke and the ancient sith as proof that feats are inconsistent. I carefully explained that's not how I used Luke. I've also provided a long argument in a previous thread about how and why the ancients had access to more knowledge and power than any future generations with the exception of Palpatine.


Where is this stated and for what kind of sources exactly? Because most of the quotes you provided are either completely outdated or indicate a character's own opinion.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Most of those quotes have been debunked over the years as either incomplete, not including all the characters after the fact, etc.

Incomplete? No idea what you're talking about. And even if it didn't include characters after the fact, it'd include characters before the fact, including Vitiate. You have nowhere to run, lol.



They work fine. They obviously refer to all of history and have far more credence than Valkorion's case, which is built entirely on speculation and arbitrary judgment.



No, it doesn't. It's from a guide, not a novel. There's a reason why I didn't post Vader's musings about Sidious' supremacy from Death Star - because those were musings.

Yes, it reveals what Vader imagined, but that doesn't mean it's from his perspective. An omniscient author would know what Vader imagined as well.



It's not a quote about the "greatest Sith master". It's a quote about the "greatest master of evil to ever use Sith power", which fits the bill entirely. Vitiate/Valkorion is a master of evil, and even after he changes name, he uses Sith powers.



As with the Vader one, it's not his musings, but the omniscient author telling us what they realized. Which isn't unheard of in sources whatsoever.



That's the equivalent of saying that "the Earth's shape can be debated". You can choose to debate anything you want, even the facts.

I've yet to see a satisfactory "debunking" of the quotes as you've claimed. Moreover, even if each of the quotes had individual flaws or holes in them, the fact that they come from all sorts of sources, authors etc. for decades makes the case for itself. Palpatine is just universally supported as the most powerful Sith, and obviously that's the case for a erason.



Vitiate changing name doesn't make him more powerful. If Ziost was just there to restore him to full strength, then he's probably just as strong as his older counterpart, not necessarily stronger.

As for his spirit form, thankfully Sidious knows how to manipulate spirits and essences then, eh?

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Where is this stated and for what kind of sources exactly? Because most of the quotes you provided are either completely outdated or indicate a character's own opinion.

The statute of limitations theory doesn't work because then you're essentially saying that sequels exist in their own continuity, since their existence as a newer source automatically invalidates all older sources, including the source that they were made as a sequel for? The fact that it's new means that it's an addition, not an overwrite, unless I'm shown a source that proves that.

Of course I do, because Valkorion was created in 2016.


You still haven't shown how these quotes are considered OOU and all encompassing.


Right, and omniscient author also personally believed Exar Kun was on the same level as Palpatine. There's a reason we didn't include that.


What sith powers does Valkorion use? And that's assuming that this quote incldues Valkorion.



That maybe so but most of them have been debunked over the years because we don't take quotes at face value, ever. That's why hyperbole exists. I've yet to see anyone post a canon policy for future content, OOU sources, what constitutes as OOU, etc.


Valkorion was a more powerful version of Vitiate, who apparently didn't need prep time to run another ritual, who also possessed a vastly different understanding of the force from Vitiate. It's the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious.

As for his spirit form, i'm sure Sidious probably knows how to manipulate spirits or essences, yet we haven't seen him do that, much less to someone as powerful as Valkorion.



Yea, that kinda proves my point don't you think? I'm very familiar with what Chee said because that's been passed around on this forum more often than hookers on the street. But that helps my argument more than it helps yours. He's essentially saying there's no objective measure, doesn't indicate which sources are OOU, what sources are all encompassing (meaning all future characters), etc. So you've basically provided a pretty good case for Palpatine as far as quotes go. Not great but pretty good.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So Darth Bane > Vitiate?

People tend to forget that Backcover hype is more of a marketing statement rather being an accurate assessment of the characters and lore in question. Well this is from the Official Star Wars Fact File:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/5207832-8214746295-Bane..PNG

So it appears to be the case.

Sunrazer/Tempest I'll tell you what. If you can email any of these star wars jackoffs and have them confirm to you that Sidious>Vitiate/Valkorion, even if it is their opinion, I will NEVER argue against Sidious again? Now go.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Of course I do, because Valkorion was created in 2016.

And you've still failed to prove that he's more powerful than Vitiate.

At minimum, Vitiate's included in this, making RotS Sidious > him, and thus DE Sidious would eclipse whatever growth Valkorion would have, not that he's proven to have any to begin with.

And Valkorion existed in 2015. That's when the expansion came along.



Because they're from out-of-universe sources and refer to "all of history"?

You're wasting my time, lol.



Uh-huh, where's that?



Lightning, Essence Transfer, Drain, etc.

But that's not the point, lol. This isn't about his individual powers, it's the nature of his powers. Vitiate's spent his entire life as a Sith Lord. A change of name and allegiance doesn't change the fact that his powers were derived from the Sith.

Why wouldn't include Valkorion? It refers to "ever". Show me Valkorion's exemption from the quote, rather. The ones I've picked all refer to all of history. There's no reason for Vitiate's exemption unless you can provide one.



One man's debunking is another man's denial. I've yet to see any satisfactory repeal of any of these quotes, just people railing on about Vitiate's status as a new character. The quotes work fine.



Based on what is Valkorion better than Vitiate?



We haven't seen Valkorion use telekinesis, Lightning, or any of his powers on someone as powerful as Sidious, too. I guess that means they're all moot, huh?

If Sidious is more powerful than Valkorion, I see no reason as to why this wouldn't work.



Except the answer is clear. It's a dozen plus quotes in Sidious' favor to nil in favor of Valkorion. Your only argument is that Valkorion is new, but unless we assume that everything that's new automatically invalidates older sources, which would mean that all prequels are now invalidated, then yeah, that's just desperate denial.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Sunrazer/Tempest I'll tell you what. If you can email any of these star wars jackoffs and have them confirm to you that Sidious>Vitiate/Valkorion, even if it is their opinion, I will NEVER argue against Sidious again? Now go.

I'm not one to email others, but I should have time to do this in the coming days.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Sunrazer/Tempest I'll tell you what. If you can email any of these star wars jackoffs and have them confirm to you that Sidious>Vitiate/Valkorion, even if it is their opinion, I will NEVER argue against Sidious again? Now go.
I'll later contact Leeland Chee, then

@Beef

I brought up the ancient Sith's lack of feats, not knowledge. They don't have the feats to compare with a great many characters, but you wouldn't put Ezra Bridger above Ludo Kressh simply because Ezra has better feats.

Feats, as you point out, can be very inconsistent. So if they're inconsistent, it's not enough to say that X quote is no longer valid because Y feat "contradicts" it.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Valkorion was created in 2016.

Lel. The expansion came out in 2015 October 20. It was already showcased in E3, with Valkorion included, in June 16. And the expansion was in development long before that.

Fair point but we're taking everything into account, including feats, quotes, availability of knowledge, etc.


The latest quote still comes before Valkorion

So please explain how feats are inconsistent enough to not really matter but are consistent enough that they can render a quote null.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So please explain how feats are inconsistent enough to not really matter but are consistent enough that they can render a quote null.

I never said feats are inconsistent enough to not really matter. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I never said feats are inconsistent enough to not really matter. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

Ok. Well explain to me how feats can be inconsistent enough to disregard in some situations but are consistent enough to contradict these quotes.