Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Beyonder.

Beyonder takes him apart.

classic michael jackson ftw

Beyonder is just far too powerfull, so much so that it was just ridicolus.

Beyonder 7/10

Beyonder might be far more powerful than Lucifer but, Lucifer's likely to pawn him when it comes to intellect and wisdom.

Beyonder just seemed too powerful to ever require him to possess an intellect of any discernible power, against Lucifer that may be his weakness.

well you have got a point, Doctor doom could trick the beyonder so why not someone like Lucifer whos intellect is off the sharts.


this is a hard one, but if it comes to raw power then Beyonder still takes the lead

Originally posted by janus77
Beyonder might be far more powerful than Lucifer but, Lucifer's likely to pawn him when it comes to intellect and wisdom.

Beyonder just seemed too powerful to ever require him to possess an intellect of any discernible power, against Lucifer that may be his weakness.
Lucifers brains won't do a difference in this battle.
Think about it, how would the remains of a 50 pounds brain or a 10 pounds brain scattered all over the floor make a greater difference?

Originally posted by DarkFireLord
well you have got a point, Doctor doom could trick the beyonder so why not someone like Lucifer whos intellect is off the sharts.


this is a hard one, but if it comes to raw power then Beyonder still takes the lead
PIS is a non factor.

then it is quite simple, if Beyonder holds back Luc has a chance if not he can kiss himself bye bye.

but still remember that the beyonders have alot of doubt, this is how Doctor Doom was able to trick one.

Not much the Beyonder can do the Lucy. Lucy's Durability is of the charts when he's ready for it. He can fashion any energy the Classic Beyonder throws at him into anything he wants it to be. Such is his power.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Not much the Beyonder can do the Lucy. Lucy's Durability is of the charts when he's ready for it. He can fashion any energy the Classic Beyonder throws at him into anything he wants it to be. Such is his power.
Originally posted by fangirl101
I'm going to go back to the DC message boards.

DC fanboards that way --> http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/category.jspa?categoryID=2

Beyonder was causing massive damage by thinking too much. By being angry, he was tearing apart the Multiverse. He embodies a Multiverse quintillions of times larger than the infinite Marvel Multiverse in size and power, and he created it. He beat a planet of Celestials in H2H. He had the Living Tribunal trembling. Beyonder wins.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Beyonder was causing massive damage by thinking too much. By being angry, he was tearing apart the Multiverse. He embodies a Multiverse quintillions of times larger than the infinite Marvel Multiverse in size and power, and he created it. He beat a planet of Celestials in H2H. He had the Living Tribunal trembling. Beyonder wins.

He never fought the LT. The LT has never since shaken. Abstracts quaking in fear? OMG. He made a universe quintillions times bigger larger than the marvel multiverse? would you say it's bigger than the marvel omniverse that Is putty in the LT's hands?

Beyonder "classic is one of a kind" and not even LT can beat him, Luc wouldnt have the power to stop the classic one, but he does have ultimate manipulation tho.

Beyonder just takes it if he doesnt hasitate or else he could be manipulated by Luc and even lose his power to him.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lucifer outsmarted him.

But if beyonder is told that he HAS to defeat Lucifer, then he should take an easy win.

Originally posted by fangirl101
He never fought the LT. The LT has never since shaken. Abstracts quaking in fear? OMG. He made a universe quintillions times bigger larger than the marvel multiverse? would you say it's bigger than the marvel omniverse that Is putty in the LT's hands?

Rolf he never had to fought the LT he made him piss his pants in fear. He even made someone stronger then LT cry. He WAS that multiverse he dident make that.

Beyonder stomps by moving his pinky.

Originally posted by llagrok
I wouldn't be surprised if Lucifer outsmarted him.

But if beyonder is told that he HAS to defeat Lucifer, then he should take an easy win.

I agree with this!

lucifer wud take this, powerless on wit alone. he has infinite will and it manifests in many many ways. not to forget people, he DID outsmart and defeat yahweh, a being stronger than classic beyonder. lucifer himself is compareable easily, he rules his own multiverse and has created teh original one and he can do it again and again, not ot menion that neither the void nor the demiurgic multiverse shattering explosion even scathed him at ground zero. he is effectively beyond multiversal level. the near megaversal death has no hold over him, nor does destiny anymore. when he finally escaped later in the void, the entire enormity of another creation forming with himself/yahweh/micheal and its due course was seen/comprehended and taken in by him in the blink of an eye. he wud be the godhead in primum mobile with all of yahweh's might if he had chosen to be but he didnt like the idea. he was so unique and powerful infact that yahweh himself admitted that he had done what even yahweh cud not, and wanted to amalgamate with him which he straight out refused.

before, having read half of lucifer, id have said beyonder wins. but any1 who has completely read the entire thing and his appearances in sandman can never say that beyonder has the upper hand here. lucifer wins. no1 beats the devil. not to mention, beyonder is THE most gullible/insecure/misguided character in marvel and hence the easiest for lucifer to use his own power againt himself{which is mostly how the llightbringer works}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer wud take this, powerless on wit alone. he has infinite will and it manifests in many many ways. not to forget people, he DID outsmart and defeat yahweh, a being stronger than classic beyonder. lucifer himself is compareable easily, he rules his own multiverse and has created teh original one and he can do it again and again, not ot menion that neither the void nor the demiurgic multiverse shattering explosion even scathed him at ground zero. he is effectively beyond multiversal level. the near megaversal death has no hold over him, nor does destiny anymore. when he finally escaped later in the void, the entire enormity of another creation forming with himself/yahweh/micheal and its due course was seen/comprehended and taken in by him in the blink of an eye. he wud be the godhead in primum mobile with all of yahweh's might if he had chosen to be but he didnt like the idea. he was so unique and powerful infact that yahweh himself admitted that he had done what even yahweh cud not, and wanted to amalgamate with him which he straight out refused.

before, having read half of lucifer, id have said beyonder wins. but any1 who has completely read the entire thing and his appearances in sandman can never say that beyonder has the upper hand here. lucifer wins. no1 beats the devil. not to mention, beyonder is THE most gullible/insecure/misguided character in marvel and hence the easiest for lucifer to use his own power againt himself{which is mostly how the llightbringer works}

He dident fought yaweh. Beyonder causes multiversial destruction not on purpose by just being angry.

Show me a feat thats greater then the Beyonder.

Beyonder wins this easily. Lucy could outsmart him but we dont create a story and such for these threads. Beyonder simply crushes him.

Originally posted by GN.
He dident fought yaweh. Beyonder causes multiversial destruction not on purpose by just being angry.

Show me a feat thats greater then the Beyonder.

Zero hour. Crisis On infnite Earths. Lucifer. World's funnest. Alien entity formed the omniverse. beyonder never laid claim to the multiverse. only his own universe how ever big.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Zero hour. Crisis On infnite Earths. Lucifer. World's funnest. Alien entity formed the omniverse. beyonder never laid claim to the multiverse. only his own universe how ever big.

Beyonder IS a multiverse WAAAY bigger then Marvel's. Thats a way greater feat then creating one. Humans can create a house, they cant be as strong and big as the house they can create.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Zero hour. Crisis On infnite Earths. Lucifer. World's funnest. Alien entity formed the omniverse. beyonder never laid claim to the multiverse. only his own universe how ever big. Lt has always been multiversal correct? He is the judge of the multiverse right? So if he is afraid of the Beyonder wouldnt that make him at the very least a multiversal threat? Answer honestly for your own sake.

This has been done before and Beyonder wins this in every way, including outsmarting Lucifer.

I wouldn't say he's smarter, just so much more powerful, its like fighting the Titans when they began leaching off of The Presence's power, and Lucifer had to go in the time stream and kill them before they were a threat, and sit on the Throne. The Beyonder is a "God" that never got matured, he still would win...

lol, let me remind you that the only way beyonder could have detsroyed the entire multiverse was by creating a space time anomoly where time would be destroyed and the entire universe would go with it. and in his conversation with reed richards he himself admitted that even HE could not survive the destruction of time and would be destroyed along with the main marvel multiverse. that is it, a suicide move to destroy himself and the multiverse.

on the other hand lucifer survives in the void with no concepts. he is his own light and CREATED the concept of time out of NOTHING in his multiverse and even set its gradient to be steeper than that of yahweh's multiverse. in feats lucifer has done more. and if you actually READ lucifer, youd know that lucifer threatened yahweh by assasination and got him to no leave his creation. furthermore, micheal in primum mobile was the only thing holding the entire multiverse together after yahwh had left primum mobile. lucifer also took a multiverse shatterning and multiverse creating explosion at point blank and wasnt even scrathed. even the friggin basanos cudnt do much against him which were the very concept of predestination set by yahweh since predestination as with all other concept worked by EQUATIONS and its impossible{in the words of the basanos} to to put INFINITE in any equation{referring to lucifer's infinite will} lucifer threatened to kill the near megaversal death{the endless} who admitted htat he cud do it, and killed fenris, who was DESTRUCTION itself embodied WITHOUT having access to his full powers. he even reversed the destructive events caused at the creation place yygdrassil which wud have shaken all of creation and damaged more than one multiverse and destoryed all three. heck he was the one who KILLED micheal demiurgos. the second god.

Originally posted by kevdude
I wouldn't say he's smarter, just so much more powerful, its like fighting the Titans when they began leaching off of The Presence's power, and Lucifer had to go in the time stream and kill them before they were a threat, and sit on the Throne. The Beyonder is a "God" that never got matured, he still would win... I still think the battle for outright supremacy would be between Thanos with the heart vs classic Beyonder. Both have such power would be quite fun to see this but of course we never will. You know who I think is the true supreme being out of these 2. Obviously the top 2 outside of the presence and TOAA.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
not to forget people, he DID outsmart and defeat yahweh, a being stronger than classic beyonder.
He did never defeat YHWH.
YHWH isn't supreme, while Beyonder was supreme.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer himself is compareable easily, he rules his own multiverse and has created teh original one and he can do it again and again, not ot menion that neither the void nor the demiurgic multiverse shattering explosion even scathed him at ground zero.
No, Lucifer never created a Multiverse. He simply shaped it, it was Michael's power that Lucifer used to shape into it.
Another fact is, Lucifer can't create energy, simply manipulate it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
he is effectively beyond multiversal level. the near megaversal death has no hold over him, nor does destiny anymore.
Actually, he rejected YHWH's offer. He is a subject to destiny.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
he wud be the godhead in primum mobile with all of yahweh's might if he had chosen to be but he didnt like the idea. he was so unique and powerful infact that yahweh himself admitted that he had done what even yahweh cud not, and wanted to amalgamate with him which he straight out refused.
Yes, he rejected YHWH's offer. So he's as weak as he was in the begining of th series.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
before, having read half of lucifer, id have said beyonder wins. but any1 who has completely read the entire thing and his appearances in sandman can never say that beyonder has the upper hand here. lucifer wins. no1 beats the devil. not to mention, beyonder is THE most gullible/insecure/misguided character in marvel and hence the easiest for lucifer to use his own power againt himself{which is mostly how the llightbringer works}
I see a lot of bias but no official facts suporting it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
lol, let me remind you that the only way beyonder could have detsroyed the entire multiverse was by creating a space time anomoly where time would be destroyed and the entire universe would go with it. and in his conversation with reed richards he himself admitted that even HE could not survive the destruction of time and would be destroyed along with the main marvel multiverse. that is it, a suicide move to destroy himself and the multiverse.

on the other hand lucifer survives in the void with no concepts. he is his own light and CREATED the concept of time out of NOTHING in his multiverse and even set its gradient to be steeper than that of yahweh's multiverse. in feats lucifer has done more. and if you actually READ lucifer, youd know that lucifer threatened yahweh by assasination and got him to no leave his creation. furthermore, micheal in primum mobile was the only thing holding the entire multiverse together after yahwh had left primum mobile. lucifer also took a multiverse shatterning and multiverse creating explosion at point blank and wasnt even scrathed. even the friggin basanos cudnt do much against him which were the very concept of predestination set by yahweh since predestination as with all other concept worked by EQUATIONS and its impossible{in the words of the basanos} to to put INFINITE in any equation{referring to lucifer's infinite will} lucifer threatened to kill the near megaversal death{the endless} who admitted htat he cud do it, and killed fenris, who was DESTRUCTION itself embodied WITHOUT having access to his full powers. he even reversed the destructive events caused at the creation place yygdrassil which wud have shaken all of creation and damaged more than one multiverse and destoryed all three. heck he was the one who KILLED micheal demiurgos. the second god.

No, that was not the only way he could destroy the multiverse. Hell, it was just a side effect if he did mess with the time lines. He could just EREASE the multiverse. And before you shout hyberbole everyone believed it and shitted his pants even the LT.

First Lucifer defeated Yaweeh now its " threatened" him. Whats next?

All the people your talking about are under LT so the feats are way less.

Originally posted by kevdude
I wouldn't say he's smarter, just so much more powerful, its like fighting the Titans when they began leaching off of The Presence's power, and Lucifer had to go in the time stream and kill them before they were a threat, and sit on the Throne. The Beyonder is a "God" that never got matured, he still would win...
The Beyonder is definitely smarter than Lucifer. He can choose to be omniscient when he wants to, just like Yahweh, and in these threads both characters fight at maximum capabilities. Beyonder wins this in a curbstomp.

P.S. If you need the scans, I got them. Or you can just read the issue where he battles the Celestials (one example I can think of out of the top of my head).

Originally posted by Air Legend
The Beyonder is definitely smarter than Lucifer. He can choose to be omniscient when he wants to, just like Yahweh, and in these threads both characters fight at maximum capabilities. Beyonder wins this in a curbstomp.

P.S. If you need the scans, I got them. Or you can just read the issue where he battles the Celestials (one example I can think of out of the top of my head). Could you post the scans.

yahweh is supreme in vertigo only second to the coomic book writers. beyonder isnt supreme either, currently wanda from house of m has done nearly enough. the one above all is supreme{i.e. the comic book writers}. and if you remember correctly, beyonder is DEAD. and lucifer DID defeat yahweh and usurp hima nd threaten him and "IN YAHWEH'S OWN WORDS" surpassed him. or havent you read lucifer.



no he cant create MATTER out of nowhere and only matter at the MULTIVERSAL scale. his lighbringer powers ARE energy and the creation of time and fire which animate and shape the world. understand this, it is only the entire matter and space at a MULTIVERSAL level that lucifer can not create out of nothing, other than that he can pretty much create them as he sees fit as he often does. dont base your judgement of lucifer on just sumthing you might have read on a bio off wikipedia or sumthing. lucifer was half teh creating power for the first MULTIverse and the second MULTIverse. and as shown by elaine bellock who go the demiurgic power{equal to lucufer's lightbringer powe} and still beaing weaker than lucifer was able to shape it without lucifer's help{who just stayed to watch} into a universe by herself alone, lucifer can do the same as he grew more from the beginning of the series. so even that theory goes.



huh what the heck are you talking about, he rejected yahweh's offer to FUSE with him. he destroyed the chackles of detiny in yahweh's own words. and he did it when he usurped the plan of fenris/silkman/lillith/yahweh/the basano's child etc to leave ceration to be and detsory it and when he made elaine take the throne of god as opposed to HIMSELF as god had intended. he is not subject to destiny.



WHAT are you talking about. he gave AWAY his lightbringer powers to mazikeen before he left. he only had his wings and infinite will when he went into the oid. he had done what yahweh cud not and usurped his creators purpose and become his own author and yahweh , wanting to learn of that knowledge and fealing desired to fuse with him, but lucifer refused, how on EARTH does that make him weak?



that paragraph was not meant to convey facts if you missed it.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Zero hour. Crisis On infnite Earths. Lucifer. World's funnest. Alien entity formed the omniverse. beyonder never laid claim to the multiverse. only his own universe how ever big.

No :/

You're wrong, and lying. Really, that's just not true.

Originally posted by llagrok
No :/

You're wrong, and lying. Really, that's just not true. Are you shocked?

Originally posted by Air Legend
The Beyonder is definitely smarter than Lucifer. He can choose to be omniscient when he wants to, just like Yahweh, and in these threads both characters fight at maximum capabilities. Beyonder wins this in a curbstomp.

P.S. If you need the scans, I got them. Or you can just read the issue where he battles the Celestials (one example I can think of out of the top of my head).

Do you have a scan where he says he can choose to be omniscient? If he was truly omniscient before he put limitations on himself and came into the Marvel Universe wouldn't he have already known about it and not be so surprised? Besides Lucifer doesn't really care for his Father who prides himself on being all knowing, Lucifer has a famous saying "you'd think the point of being Omniscient is knowing when to stop".

Quanchi you think Thanos wins right?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yahweh is supreme in vertigo only second to the coomic book writers. beyonder isnt supreme either, currently wanda from house of m has done nearly enough. the one above all is supreme{i.e. the comic book writers}. and if you remember correctly, beyonder is DEAD. and lucifer DID defeat yahweh and usurp hima nd threaten him and "IN YAHWEH'S OWN WORDS" surpassed him. or havent you read lucifer.

Lucifer did nothing inportant to Yahweh. Post scans.

Originally posted by GN.
No, that was not the only way he could destroy the multiverse. Hell, it was just a side effect if he did mess with the time lines. He could just EREASE the multiverse. And before you shout hyberbole everyone believed it and shitted his pants even the LT.

First Lucifer defeated Yaweeh now its " threatened" him. Whats next?

All the people your talking about are under LT so the feats are way less.

defeated doesnt mean KILL. he defeated him by setting things up in the way taht he did. he threatened to kill him if he left to which yahweh took notice and stayed to here elaine's anf lenneth's case, he DEFEATED yahweh at his own game and forced him into a corner where it was HIS desired outcome that came out and not yahweh's, thsat is what deafeted means.

not considering PIS which is impossible given copyright laws, LT hasnt done things compareable to lucifer. he is a protector of the multiverse and was visibly afraid of he beyonder who COULD destroy a multiversE{in the same wasy that micheal can destroy the all multiverses in vertigo, ofcourse marvel only has one multiverse and beyonder wud have died if he destroyed it while micheal can do it again and again and again} .

it WAS the only way he cud destroy the multiverse which is why he desisted after reed richards explained it to him and asked him whethere even HE cud survive the destruction of time itself and he admitted that every moment must preceed the next.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
defeated doesnt mean KILL. he defeated him by setting things up in the way taht he did. he threatened to kill him if he left to which yahweh took notice and stayed to here elaine's anf lenneth's case, he DEFEATED yahweh at his own game and forced him into a corner where it was HIS desired outcome that came out and not yahweh's, thsat is what deafeted means.

not considering PIS which is impossible given copyright laws, LT hasnt done things compareable to lucifer. he is a protector of the multiverse and was visibly afraid of he beyonder who COULD destroy a multiversE{in the same wasy that micheal can destroy the all multiverses in vertigo, ofcourse marvel only has one multiverse and beyonder wud have died if he destroyed it while micheal can do it again and again and again} .

it WAS the only way he cud destroy the multiverse which is why he desisted after reed richards explained it to him and asked him whethere even HE cud survive the destruction of time itself and he admitted that every moment must preceed the next. Post scans.

Originally posted by kevdude
Do you have a scan where he says he can choose to be omniscient? If he was truly omniscient before he put limitations on himself and came into the Marvel Universe wouldn't he have already known about it and not be so surprised? Besides Lucifer doesn't really care for his Father who prides himself on being all knowing, Lucifer has a famous saying "you'd think the point of being Omniscient is knowing when to stop".

Quanchi you think Thanos wins right? I think Thanos with the heart would win yes.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
defeated doesnt mean KILL. he defeated him by setting things up in the way taht he did. he threatened to kill him if he left to which yahweh took notice and stayed to here elaine's anf lenneth's case, he DEFEATED yahweh at his own game and forced him into a corner where it was HIS desired outcome that came out and not yahweh's, thsat is what deafeted means.

not considering PIS which is impossible given copyright laws, LT hasnt done things compareable to lucifer. he is a protector of the multiverse and was visibly afraid of he beyonder who COULD destroy a multiversE{in the same wasy that micheal can destroy the all multiverses in vertigo, ofcourse marvel only has one multiverse and beyonder wud have died if he destroyed it while micheal can do it again and again and again} .

it WAS the only way he cud destroy the multiverse which is why he desisted after reed richards explained it to him and asked him whethere even HE cud survive the destruction of time itself and he admitted that every moment must preceed the next.

Who in the first place gave Lucifer the letter of passage and LET him leave and go in the void??

also, lucifer usurped yahweh's EYE{omniscience} when he broke through the mansions of silence i beleive and even yahweh admitted that he cud only really followhis movements for a second or two more.

and GN just because you havent READ the comic doesnt mean you can say he did nuthing worth mentioning to yahweh. go READ and see. he killed the child of the basanos after killing fenris to send yahweh a MESSAGE which i beleiver stated that if he let creation fall, lucifer would follow him forevr and inflict his punishment and yahweh took this seriously. i think what your really going by is just vague stuff youve heard about lucifer on forums. lucifer even dove INTO the mind of god inside hell along with micheal and saw his PLAN .

Originally posted by kevdude
Who in the first place gave Lucifer the letter of passage and LET him leave and go in the void??

The scan Air Legend was talking about:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/TheZBlade/omniscienttt.jpg

Originally posted by leonheartmm
also, lucifer usurped yahweh's EYE{omniscience} when he broke through the mansions of silence i beleive and even yahweh admitted that he cud only really followhis movements for a second or two more.

and GN just because you havent READ the comic doesnt mean you can say he did nuthing worth mentioning to yahweh. go READ and see. he killed the child of the basanos after killing fenris to send yahweh a MESSAGE which i beleiver stated that if he let creation fall, lucifer would follow him forevr and inflict his punishment and yahweh took this seriously. i think what your really going by is just vague stuff youve heard about lucifer on forums. lucifer even dove INTO the mind of god inside hell along with micheal and saw his PLAN .

Lucifer coudent do crap to a bloodlusted Yahweh. Post scans to prove me otherwise then.

Originally posted by GN.
Lucifer coudent do crap to a bloodlusted Yahweh. Post scans to prove me otherwise then. I am awaiting these scans myself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Could you post the scans.

Originally posted by kevdude
Do you have a scan where he says he can choose to be omniscient?


Yeah, I'll scan them. Might take me a bit though.

Originally posted by kevdude
If he was truly omniscient before he put limitations on himself and came into the Marvel Universe wouldn't he have already known about it and not be so surprised?

Besides Lucifer doesn't really care for his Father who prides himself on being all knowing, Lucifer has a famous saying "you'd think the point of being Omniscient is knowing when to stop".

Yahweh never displayed true omniscience by your standards. Plus, if Beyonder already knew about the Marvel Universe, there would be no Secret Wars II. You'd get what I'm saying if you bothered to read the series, which was waaay more entertaining than the Lucifer series I'll add.

Lucifer doesn't like his creator, but how is this relevant to what we were talking about?

he didnt earn it for free, he helped out heaven. plus if you havent forgotten the letter was to ANYWHERE and it was a device to manipulate and DESTROY lucifer by yahweh to which he commented that his intelligence was being mocked.

for scans, its kinda hard to remember exact pages in 75 chapters you know. also, for some reason my windows is not converting rar files to jpeg and i have the entire lucifer on rar format. hopefully ill get around this.

Originally posted by GN.
Lucifer coudent do crap to a bloodlusted Yahweh. Post scans to prove me otherwise then.
Did that guy just claim Lucifer hurt Yahweh?

Oh the comedy here.

I must admit i havent read much about Lucifer, not really my charakter so i let this up to you to debate

but to set things straight Marvel doesnt have just one Multiverse or else why is the LT called the Protector of the Multiverses!!!!??

And beyonder cant just die cause he destroyed marvel's multiverse, would make no difference to him, still he loves marvel's multiverse "why do you think he made every living creature immortal at a time?"


Greets,
DFL

I find it amusing that the only person I've ever met, who doesn't like Lucifer. Is the biggest Michael fanboy on the forum

Sounds like someone's upset that Lucifer beat the LIVING SHIT out Michael.

here is one of beyonder

Originally posted by Air Legend
Yeah, I'll scan them. Might take me a bit though.

I alredy did few posts back.

Leon your conceding now? Your arguing for Lucifer and when we ask scans for what youve been saying your giving from the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Yeah, I'll scan them. Might take me a bit though.



Yahweh never displayed true omniscience by your standards. Plus, if Beyonder already knew about the Marvel Universe, there would be no Secret Wars II. You'd get what I'm saying if you bothered to read the series, which was waaay more entertaining than the Lucifer series I'll add.

Lucifer doesn't like his creator, but how is this relevant to what we were talking about?

By my standards he does display it, he knew what would happen before he created anything. Saying the other part about all knowing is because Lucifer doesn't care about being omniscience. And GN showed the scan.

About the Mansions, Lucifer got away with it because God allowed it and was leaving and wasn't going to turn back just for that, hell the elements themselves was begging him to stay and he let them go.

sigh, finally i have the jpeg images, but itll take a little while to put them up, be patient {had to extract em in paint }

and DAMN they are still too big.

tell me, what can i do to bring the images under the limit of file size to post {each is around 269 kb} or how do youl upload images to photobucket and stuff. srry im not very good at this.

Originally posted by GN.
The scan Air Legend was talking about:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/TheZBlade/omniscienttt.jpg

Thats a awesome quote that he says while being blasted hahaha, he should add "damn wish i brought my camera"

Originally posted by leonheartmm
sigh, finally i have the jpeg images, but itll take a little while to put them up, be patient {had to extract em in paint }

and DAMN they are still too big.

tell me, what can i do to bring the images under the limit of file size to post {each is around 269 kb} or how do youl upload images to photobucket and stuff. srry im not very good at this.

Thats why i never bother lol yes... im a moron

Originally posted by leonheartmm
sigh, finally i have the jpeg images, but itll take a little while to put them up, be patient {had to extract em in paint }

and DAMN they are still too big.

tell me, what can i do to bring the images under the limit of file size to post {each is around 269 kb} or how do youl upload images to photobucket and stuff. srry im not very good at this. just lover the resolution and make it an .Jpeg file in either Photoshop or MS Paint, then you can either upload it here, ImageShack or Photobucket "providing us with links from the last two"


Good luck

http://s287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/leonheartmm/

i hope this works. i made sumthing like an album of the last chapters containing lucifer. concerning his status against yahweh.



yup it works. i hopw this will silence the unnecessary argumentation.

Originally posted by GN.
I alredy did few posts back.


I was trying to find the panel where he's talking to someone and he says "I'm usually omniscient", but this scan will suffice.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
http://s287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/leonheartmm/

i hope this works. i made sumthing like an album of the last chapters containing lucifer. concerning his status against yahweh.



yup it works. i hopw this will silence the unnecessary argumentation.
Great. That's like copyright infringment and proving yourself wrong all at once.

well everythign is copyright infringement these days, and ud have to be blind to think it proves me wrong. i have clearly shown how lucifer directly affected yahweh and how what i was sayign before was true while gn said that lucifer had no affect on yahweh whatsoever.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
well everythign is copyright infringement these days, and ud have to be blind to think it proves me wrong. i have clearly shown how lucifer directly affected yahweh and how what i was sayign before was true while gn said that lucifer had no affect on yahweh whatsoever.



How the F does the last pages of Lucifer show he affected Yahweh? You meant to say that it's possible to go outside of Yahweh's plan, right?

Moreover, those pages do give insight that Yahweh is not supreme. I was going to make those scans and post them on the Thanos HOTI vs Presence thread, but I was too lazy.

it gives insight that the only thing more supreme than yahweh are the writers{the forces tha gave birth to yahweh} . and yahweh himself says that lucifer surpassed his FUNCTION which is WHY yahweh is so interested in him.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it gives insight that the only thing more supreme than yahweh are the writers{the forces tha gave birth to yahweh} . and yahweh himself says that lucifer surpassed his FUNCTION which is WHY yahweh is so interested in him.

Thats not that inpressive at all tbh.

huh, lucifer trancending the boundries that even yahweh cudnt isnt impressive? lucifer threatening yahweh and hence cornering him into a decision isnt impressive?? come on now, admit it, you hadnt read lucifer and now have to eat your words GN on how lucifer hasnt had any significant affect on yahweh or how he has defeated yahweh.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
huh, lucifer trancending the boundries that even yahweh cudnt isnt impressive? lucifer threatening yahweh and hence cornering him into a decision isnt impressive?? come on now, admit it, you hadnt read lucifer and now have to eat your words GN on how lucifer hasnt had any significant affect on yahweh or how he has defeated yahweh. The fact that Yahweh had boundaries seems to suggest implicitly that he isn't omnipotent.

Originally posted by Mindset
The fact that Yahweh had boundaries seems to suggest implicitly that he isn't omnipotent. Indeed,this guy is making a case for him not being omnipotent.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
huh, lucifer trancending the boundries that even yahweh cudnt isnt impressive? lucifer threatening yahweh and hence cornering him into a decision isnt impressive?? come on now, admit it, you hadnt read lucifer and now have to eat your words GN on how lucifer hasnt had any significant affect on yahweh or how he has defeated yahweh.

When did he threaten him?? With the sword? That was meaning for him to let go of the 3 creations and let Elaine take charge (something he already was ready for and knew). He gave Lucifer the letter of passage in the first place, wanted some randomness to happen within his Great Plan. He had an effect on him, feeling sorry for him is the reason he came around, wishing to solve the differences between them.

^he didnt desire randomness. the letter was a trap. lucifer outsmarted it. you have to understand where yahweh is coming from. he cudnt surpass the boudries put on him due to that fact that he was CREATED by the WRITERS. it doesnt mean he is not omnipotent. anything that is in comics will ALWAYS be second to the writers. by your arguments, there wudnt BE any omnipotence in ANY media simply because it has an author. that to me is nonsensical, yahweh was omnipotent INSIDE the comic. but neither the beyonder nor the heart of the universe with thanos as its holder were omnpotent even INSIDE teh comic as i have explained before. that is where the difference in power levels comes from.

yahweh's role was to create then leave for one of his sons to take it up. he cudnt escape it and tried to undermine lucifer who was working against this PLAN. he was always gonna LEAVE creation but what he did when he did so was upto him, destroy or let persist. lucifer FORCED him to make that choice in his favour and WHY is every1 conveniently avoiding the threat. yahwh made it clear that he wud only listen to two but lucifer forced his word in breaking yahweh's rule and MADE him choose a third option against which yahweh sadly accepts commenting on lucifer knowing him all too well. also the threat of revenge must have been real enough to yahweh to desist from his chosen coarse. this tells of lucifer;s actual power. yahweh let randomness occur because lucifer's destruction at the hand of the basanos had NOT gone as planned and lucifer WAS succesful in creating his own multiverse which god{through micheal} demanded him to give back to yahweh. god himself spoke of his plan when commenting on how strongly lucifer had woven the strands of his own destruction. but he also has a longing side, for his son to acheive what he cud not, freedom. it is twisted, but this is the reason he wanted in the end to fuse with lucifer, so that he wud understand how lucifer did it as he cud not seperate himself from the purpose {boundries} put on him by the truly supreme entity, the artists. it was due to the very fact that he cudnt escape that he followed his role nearly to the end in trying to destroy lucifer. because sentimentally, he was proud of lucifer, prouder than anything else.

Yea, sounds like Yahweh isn't omnipotent.

If Lucifer could surpass boundaries that Yahweh couldn't, then Yahweh isn't omnipotent.

yahweh WAS. omnipotence was ITSELF boundry introduced byt the supreme writers. lucifer surpassed even that and turned into sumthing completely unique which even yahweh lusted after.

also, wud sum1 please be nice enough to give me an actual EXAMPLE of what they WOULD consider an omnipotent being in comics.

Show me a scan of the "boundry". True omnipotent has no limits, weakness or anything. All powerfull. TOAA for example.

The boundaries your talking about was made by The Presence/Yhwh himself, he made everything and everything is 'His' so he can't seperate himself from his creation's. He left because he wanted to experience some randomness, he told Elaine that and the only thing keeping him around was picking on who would rule after he would leave, he picked both Michael and Lucifer but both didn't want the job and was trying to force God to return, and of course he knew he put things in motion for a 3rd option (Elaine) who would rule in his spot. No other voices was heard, the sword was used to show him another way, cut himself away from the 3 creations and dumping them together. I don't think he's talking about the 'writers' which is very lame, he's talking about the void... he is Omnipotent

Originally posted by GN.
Show me a scan of the "boundry". True omnipotent has no limits, weakness or anything. All powerfull. TOAA for example.

is this perhaps bitterness at being scans before which proved my point and disproved yours that you are asking for sumthing that obviously can not be shown in a scan? its a simple theme that is revealed int he coarse of the comic. there is NO1 in comics which can folow in your definition of omnipotence. TOAA is a THEORISED entity in marvel never seen. the closest is bunny eternity showing to reed richards thatthe WRITERS were TOAA. in any case, no such entity exists INSIDE comics for sure{any comics} and neither the heart of the universe nor the beyonder have power comparing to true omnipotence.

i can post the scans, when i return

Originally posted by kevdude
The boundaries your talking about was made by The Presence/Yhwh himself, he made everything and everything is 'His' so he can't seperate himself from his creation's. He left because he wanted to experience some randomness, he told Elaine that and the only thing keeping him around was picking on who would rule after he would leave, he picked both Michael and Lucifer but both didn't want the job and was trying to force God to return, and of course he knew he put things in motion for a 3rd option (Elaine) who would rule in his spot. No other voices was heard, the sword was used to show him another way, cut himself away from the 3 creations and dumping them together. I don't think he's talking about the 'writers' which is very lame, he's talking about the void... he is Omnipotent

wow, you just restated you OPPINION which i had just disproved in the last post. doesnt help in debating does it{kinda why i hate the comic book forums and left in the first place}. he isnt omnipotent if we go by YOUR example. he was created by forces outside himself and he admits it. that in the STRICT sense is not omnipotence. he is omnipotent in his own WORLD. and lucifer surpassed his purpose, sumthing yahweh cudnt do. there are no other influences in the void and since he is omnipotent INSIDE teh comic book, he is obviously referring to the WRITERS when he says that he was shaped by forces OUTSIDE himself since i dont see any other super gods running around in the void.

and all of my old arguments remain, reread them if you want to debate this further.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
is this perhaps bitterness at being scans before which proved my point and disproved yours that you are asking for sumthing that obviously can not be shown in a scan? its a simple theme that is revealed int he coarse of the comic. there is NO1 in comics which can folow in your definition of omnipotence. TOAA is a THEORISED entity in marvel never seen. the closest is bunny eternity showing to reed richards thatthe WRITERS were TOAA. in any case, no such entity exists INSIDE comics for sure{any comics} and neither the heart of the universe nor the beyonder have power comparing to true omnipotence.

You disaproved nothing off me. A theme isent a feat. I ask for scans since i keep seeing people disaprove you with ease just like kevdude just now. TOAA is the company itself.

Im still waiting for the great feats (and prove) that trumph the Beyonder his feats.

surviving multivers shattering explosions and creating half of two multiverse amon many many other things puts lucifer above LT. i disproved your entire claim by posting those scans.

toaa is the artists.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
wow, you just restated you OPPINION which i had just disproved in the last post. doesnt help in debating does it{kinda why i hate the comic book forums and left in the first place}. he isnt omnipotent if we go by YOUR example. he was created by forces outside himself and he admits it. that in the STRICT sense is not omnipotence. he is omnipotent in his own WORLD. and lucifer surpassed his purpose, sumthing yahweh cudnt do. there are no other influences in the void and since he is omnipotent INSIDE teh comic book, he is obviously referring to the WRITERS when he says that he was shaped by forces OUTSIDE himself since i dont see any other super gods running around in the void.

and all of my old arguments remain, reread them if you want to debate this further.


You never disproved anything, ask you this, you say he sadly approved of Lucifer sending a 3rd message, does he 'look' sad to you when he takes the sword away from the doll???? You do know your Vertigo though which is sadly missing on this forum..

Originally posted by leonheartmm
surviving multivers shattering explosions and creating half of two multiverse amon many many other things puts lucifer above LT. i disproved your entire claim by posting those scans.

toaa is the artists.

That isent greater. Beyonder TANKED while not even expecting the strongest attacks of the Monecule Man, a being STRONGER then LT. Only his clothes where a little damaged. The Monecule Man a being FAR weaker then the Beyonder fixed multiversial damage with a finger flick while just talking. And show me a scan of the multiversial explosion/creating multiverses.

You will have to come with something better then that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

lol,
let me remind you that the only way beyonder could have detsroyed the entire multiverse was by creating a space time anomoly where time would be destroyed and the entire universe would go with it.


Originally posted by leonheartmm

and in his conversation with reed richards he himself admitted that even HE could not survive the destruction of time and would be destroyed along with the main marvel multiverse. that is it, a suicide move to destroy himself and the multiverse.
False.

Beyonder never admitted anything, about anything.

I have that issue, you mis-interpreted that, big time.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

surviving multivers shattering explosions and creating half of two multiverse
amon many many other things

puts lucifer above LT.
yawn

Beyonder created a Reality quintillions of times bigger
than the entire infinite prime Multiverse.

So, that's like quintillions of MultiverseS.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

beyonder isnt supreme either
Beyonder was Supreme is his own Reality. (an Ocean)

Beyonder was Supreme when he entered the Marvel Reality. (a drop of water)

Originally posted by GN.
That isent greater. Beyonder TANKED while not even expecting the strongest attacks of the Monecule Man, a being STRONGER then LT. Only his clothes where a little damaged. The Monecule Man a being FAR weaker then the Beyonder fixed multiversial damage with a finger flick while just talking. And show me a scan of the multiversial explosion/creating multiverses.

You will have to come with something better then that.

neither LT nor molecule man have ever created or destroyed a multiverse. nor have they ever claimed to be able to do so. hence they are weaker than lucifer. dont worry, ill give you the scan of the dmiurgic explosion if you really dont beleive it happened.

i did , but you didnt comment.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
neither LT nor molecule man have ever created or destroyed a multiverse. nor have they ever claimed to be able to do so. hence they are weaker than lucifer. dont worry, ill give you the scan of the dmiurgic explosion if you really dont beleive it happened.

i did , but you didnt comment.

Beyonder did multiversial damage by accident by just a emotion, anger. Monecule man fixed it with a finger flip. Prove me Lucifer could survive distruction of time itself. And Beyonder claimed to just EREASE whole the marverl verse just not destroy it. I said it before but you just ignore it.

Ask me for scans if you dont believe me. Since unlike YOU i can provide them to prove my points. Still waiting for the scans i asked pages ago.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
neither LT nor molecule man have ever created or destroyed a multiverse. nor have they ever claimed to be able to do so. hence they are weaker than lucifer. dont worry, ill give you the scan of the dmiurgic explosion if you really dont beleive it happened.

i did , but you didnt comment.

interesting scan indeed

Originally posted by leonheartmm

TOAA is a THEORISED entity in marvel never seen.
no such entity exists INSIDE comics for sure{any comics}
TOAA is the creator/Supreme Being of the Marvel Omniverse.

TOAA is not a theory, TOAA is reference by name by the Living Tribunal on panel.

TOAA appeared in FF# 511,
TOAA and his collaborator are representative avatars of the writers/artists of Marvel.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

and neither the heart of the universe nor the beyonder
have power comparing to true omnipotence.
Dude, what you smokin?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=477644&pagenumber=2

here you go, start near the end of the third post and work your way down on how lucifer creates his multiverse.{he calls it a universe as is often the case in comics for simplicity but explains later in lucifer NIRVANA that what he created was indeed "a totality, a multiverse" and mazikeen later explains that it is just a difference of MAGNITUDE and hence the phrase.

and btw MAYBE YOU MISSED IT, but i posted a link back right after you asked me for the scans to photobuicket where i put up ALL of the scans you asked for, you just didnt check it out fool!

oh and btw, time doesnt exist in the void, nor does space or any other concept. and you can see clearly in these scans that lucifer CREATES time. this shud put the debate to rest with you hopefully.

http://s287.photobucket.com/albums/ll150/leonheartmm/

here you go GN, the scans you asked for, i posted them a while back but you probably didnt see the link or sumthing. check em out.

also,. mr master, put old bitternesss aside. please you can be annoying when bitter. plus, all LT REALLY said was that his power came from ON HIGH. thats it. toaa was explained by eternity to reed richards to be the writer who perceives the entire marvel reality to be just paper where he DRAWS things on, saying that it is indeed enither the writer or stan lee/jack kirby.

So creating a multiverse will make him win this fight now?
The Beyonder IS a multiverse bigger then Marvel. I concede on the time but not on the other points.

wow, so youve abandoned all your previous argument and greiviences with me{probably havent read the pages i posted which YOU yourself demanded given the quick time you replied in} and come straight dow to ridicule which isnt even funny????

no having the power to create a multiverse and having the power to survive the destruction of multiverse shattering events and infintie will and the power to create vague concepts from nothing and the lightbringer powers whcih burn anything in existance or outside it and a mind smarter than any other will help him win the fight . or maybe, all that is worth nothing against your sarcasm .

and just so you know, the words MULTIVERSE BIGGER THAN MULTIVERSE means nothing really since a multiverse is a multiverse and there is no way ofcomparin which one is larger, marvel or vertigo. also the beyonder is a REALM as far as i remember. and he is IN marvel since he is written by marvel. he is inside the marvel MEGAVERSE.

and again you didnt comment on the scan i posted of the beyonder

Originally posted by leonheartmm

neither LT nor molecule man have ever created or destroyed a multiverse.
nor have they ever claimed to be able to do so.
hence they are weaker than lucifer.


The LT held the power of TWO MegaverseS in one hand like toys.

simultaneously,
the LT spins the destiny of the entire Marvel Omniverse in the other hand.

It's not in LT's character to create universes or multiverses,
that's not what he does, and if you knew anything about him, you'd know.

Molecule Man was more powerful than the LT, nuff said.

On Panel and confiurmed in Marvel Handbooks.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

dont worry,
ill give you the scan of the dmiurgic explosion if you really dont beleive it happened.
Don't worry, I'll give you the scans of Beyonder creating from nothingness a Reality quintillions of time bigger than the INFINITE Prime Multiverse.

That's like, Infinity mnultiplied quintillions of times.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

i did, but you didnt comment.
What exactly is it you think that scan proves?



Reed asked Beyonder, can even you survive the destruction of time?

Beyonder never says yes, or no, or maybe.

Beyonder NEVER even alludes to it being able to affect him.

In fact,

Beyonder said, "I do Not know"

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2371/bemm9.th.jpg


Nice try on the carefully cropped scan, that leaves out Beyonder's response.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
wow, so youve abandoned all your previous argument and greiviences with me{probably havent read the pages i posted which YOU yourself demanded given the quick time you replied in} and come straight dow to ridicule which isnt even funny????

no having the power to create a multiverse and having the power to survive the destruction of multiverse shattering events and infintie will and the power to create vague concepts from nothing and the lightbringer powers whcih burn anything in existance or outside it and a mind smarter than any other will help him win the fight . or maybe, all that is worth nothing against your sarcasm .

Beyonder multiverse > Lucifers multiverse. Since its part of DC its smaller unless you prove it's huger then Marvels. Beyonder tanked everything of a being stronger then LT and only got his clothes damaged. MJJ a being weaker then LT could do omniversial destruction.

Beyonder can create and delete vague concepts to. As death itself.

Those feats are nothing compared to the Beyonder. Now prove he has even greater feats or you can just concede.

Tenchi verse is a multiverse and it has only 7 universes.

edit

^first off, you have to be pretty thick not to get the cue that it ALLUDES to him destroying himsefl when he creates the time paradox. secondly, that statement of commenting was directed towards GN not YOU{but i see how bitterness is driving you to jump at oppurtunities at encounters now, well done}. thirdly, your initial claim was, if i remember correctly, that LT was holding two OMNIVERSES. but i see that you realised the idiotic natureof that claim and made them MEGAVERSES, which still isnt much better since one comic book reality can only have one megaverse.

please lets not get into this old game of yours again, marvel and the marvel handbook is diving in hyperbole here as it has no legal rights to more than one megaverse. marvel changes its definitions and throws terms in your face like nuthing interchanging between 616 universe and 616 omniverse in seconds . these shud be looked at from the accepted definitions of other comic book companies. even if you go to wikipedia and click on omniverse or marvel omniverse in a marvel article, it redirects you to multiverse or megaverse, simply because marvel wasnt using the generally accepted terms then and hyperboling. the LT was holding two UNIVERSES in its hand. that is it, and taht ia all it will ever be.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

mr master, put old bitternesss aside. please you can be annoying when bitter.
Gibberish.

Stay on topic.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

plus, all LT REALLY said was that his power came from ON HIGH.

thats it.
Really?

......................................................................................

LT himself mentions TOAA's name on panel:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4492/toaa4kx0.th.jpg

"May The One Above All forgive you"

......................................................................................




Originally posted by leonheartmm

toaa was explained by eternity to reed richards to be the writer who perceives the entire marvel reality to be just paper where he DRAWS things on,
saying that it is indeed enither the writer or stan lee/jack kirby.
Really?

Where is this stated and/or depicted?

Originally posted by GN.
Beyonder multiverse > Lucifers multiverse. Since its part of DC its smaller unless you prove it's huger then Marvels. Beyonder tanked everything of a being stronger then LT and only got his clothes damaged. MJJ a being weaker then LT could do omniversial destruction.

Beyonder can create and delete vague concepts to. As death itself.

Those feats are nothing compared to the Beyonder. Now prove he has even greater feats or you can just concede.

Tenchi verse is a multiverse and it has only 7 universes.

wow, copout. your making unfalsifyable claims and telling me to prove negetives. sorry buddy, that is bad debating tactics. you have to PROVE first that there is a difference in size between byonder's multiverse{which btw was a REALM} and lucifers, before i am given the burden of evidence to DISPROVE IT. mjj cud not do omniveral damage. please understand when marvel is indulgin in hyperbole. read my above post, NO comic book reality can be more than a megaverse. marvel has no copyright for the OMNIVERSE. its just writers being stupid and throwing around terms. omniverse = EVERYTHING all comic book relaities/tv show/our unievrse etc etc EVERYTHING. and it ONLY comes into play when amalgams happen between companies in comics. MJJ was multiversal in threat. taht is all.

im not saying beyonder cundnt delet the UNIVERSAL death. but lucifer can destroy the near MEGAVERSAL endless, death. it is different in vertigo. and as i said, neither molecule man nor LT have created or destrooyed a multiverse. they are both weaker than lucifer.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Gibberish.

Stay on topic.


Really?

......................................................................................

LT himself mentions TOAA's name on panel:

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4492/toaa4kx0.th.jpg

"May The One Above All forgive you"

......................................................................................





Really?

Where is this stated and/or depicted?

wow ive hit a nerve.

srry, id never seen that scan of LT, my bad . but TOAA has still never been seen.

for the last part, i saw the scans from the graphic novel right nere on kmc actually. its called the cosmic bunny{cause its eternity shaped like a bunny}. i only have one scan right now and it doesnt show the writer tracing out the artwork but its here rest assured. i also beleive it was mentioned on wikipedia in TOAA i think.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

first off, you have to be pretty thick not to get the cue that it ALLUDES to him destroying himsefl when he creates the time paradox.
Originally posted by Mr Master



Reed asked Beyonder, can even you survive the destruction of time?

Beyonder never says yes, or no, or maybe.

Beyonder NEVER even alludes to it being able to affect him.

In fact,

Beyonder said, "I do Not know"

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2371/bemm9.th.jpg


Nice try on the carefully cropped scan,

that leaves out Beyonder's response to Reed.
Originally posted by leonheartmm

secondly, that statement of commenting was directed towards GN not YOU
{but i see how bitterness is driving you to jump at oppurtunities at encounters now, well done}.
Gibberish, stay on topic.

This is an open thread, I can respond to any post I wish.

You're pumping ridiculous claims about Beyonder and the LT,
I gotta clear things up
so innocent onlookers won't be swayed by all that unsupported outlandishness.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

thirdly, your initial claim was, if i remember correctly,
that LT was holding two OMNIVERSES.
but i see that you realised the idiotic natureof that claim and made them MEGAVERSES,
which still isnt much better since one comic book reality can only have one megaverse.
Bull shit

I never claimed the LT held two OmniverseS,
you're a LIAR homie.

I challenge you find a post of EVER saying that.

The LT ON PANEl held the power of TWO MegaverseS,
this FACT was confirmed in LT's official Handbook bio.

Each Megaverse is a collection of MultiverseS according to Marvel.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

please lets not get into this old game of yours again,
marvel and the marvel handbook is diving in hyperbole here
as it has no legal rights to more than one megaverse.
marvel changes its definitions and throws terms in your face like nuthing interchanging between 616 universe and 616 omniverse in seconds . these shud be looked at from the accepted definitions of other comic book companies. even if you go to wikipedia and click on omniverse or marvel omniverse in a marvel article, it redirects you to multiverse or megaverse, simply because marvel wasnt using the generally accepted terms then and hyperboling.
This is a bunch of gobbledygook.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

the LT was holding two UNIVERSES in its hand.
that is it, and taht ia all it will ever be.
firefirefireph

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it gives insight that the only thing more supreme than yahweh are the writers{the forces tha gave birth to yahweh} .

and yahweh himself says that lucifer surpassed his FUNCTION which is WHY yahweh is so interested in him.

Ok. Your first remark is nullified by your second statement, because your second statement implies that Lucifer is also more powerful than Yahweh. Anyways...


What in the fallacious and word-twisting interpretation of the events that occurred?!?

First of all, Yahweh never said Lucifer surpassed his own function. This is what actually happened on panel.

Lucifer: Was this my function, then?

Yahweh: You escaped your function. That's exactly why I want to know you better.

What is Lucifer talking about when he says "function"?

This:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4986/scan0044jg4.th.jpg

What does Yahweh mean when he says Lucifer escaped his function? Yahweh means that Lucifer escaped the (Yahweh's) plan. He doesn't mean that Lucifer surpassed the boundaries of omnipotence. That's a straight up comedic and illogical extrapolation.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

for the last part,
i saw the scans from the graphic novel right nere on kmc actually.
its called the cosmic bunny{cause its eternity shaped like a bunny}.

i only have one scan right now and it doesnt show the writer tracing out the artwork

but its here rest assured.
I'm not gonna "rest assured" anything, you got your facts all mixed up.

That isn't any "cosmic bunny" btw.

That's the Alien Entity from FF#530-532.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with what you're talking about
involving "writers tracing out artwork"
or the "cosmic bunny" telling Reed anything about any such thing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm

i also beleive it was mentioned on wikipedia in TOAA i think.
Wiki?

@ LT not being able to destroy a multiverse.

Beyonder's realm was a multiverse. Just ask for scans if you dont believe me.

And MULTIVERSIAL death not universial.

Originally posted by GN.
@ LT not being able to destroy a multiverse.

Beyonder's realm was a multiverse. Just ask for scans if you dont believe me.

And MULTIVERSIAL death not universial.


I don't know how bad homeboy is mucking up DC/facts up in here.

But his Marvel knowledge is disastrous,
and it makes me chuckle how he has the balls to insult me, and what I know,
while posting fallacies concerning the reasoning behind his insults.

Hilarious.

Wow, leon lost a lot of credibility now :/

Lot of uncalled for stuff there.

wow two flamers with past grudges join up to try and insult me. nice!

why dont you actually try answering the things i posted and backed by evidence and scans as opposed to tryign to insult me. the arguments youve posted have been debunked based on the hyperboling done by marvel which is incorrect since no other comic book company uses or subscribes to it.

Nah, not insulting.

BEyonder destroyed Multi Death easily...Which he did in his limited state(the one we most see him in)...He was destroying the Multiverse with anger...But he isn't Multiversal...Lulz...Leon's debates are always funny.

dont worry, its just sum1 with an old old grudge against me.

no reason to bash other posters, if they don't know something just debate

it wasnt multi death, it was universal death. i beleive he erased death from the UNIVERSE and unless im much mistaken, that statement was retconned. anyhow, marvelk kept going back and forth between universe and multiver so many times in secret war that im boggled as it is. still doesnt make him stronger than lucifer.

Nope, destroying the multiverse with an emotion and embodying a Multiverse quintillions of times bigger and more powerful than the infinite Prime Multiverse does.

thought I read somewhere that the Beyonder used up most of his power in destroying Death, that and didn't he trick her into it??

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it wasnt multi death, it was universal death. i beleive he erased death from the UNIVERSE and unless im much mistaken, that statement was retconned. anyhow, marvelk kept going back and forth between universe and multiver so many times in secret war that im boggled as it is. still doesnt make him stronger than lucifer.

http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyonderkillsdeath3tq0.jpg

...

really now, i posted a scan before where it was heavily implied that the beyonder himself wud not survive the destruction of the multiverse. he didnt destroy the multiverse with an emotion for heaven's sake.

also the statement "a multiverse quintillions of time bigger than another multiverse" holds no sway when there is no objective creiteria by which to compare the sizes of the marvel and vertigo multiverses. its just sumthing rather silly which adds confusion to power levels thats all. unless sum1 can compare the sizes of lucifer's multiverse with that of beyonder or marvel, i dont see the point here. also remember that when beyonder died, he created a UNIVERSE from his energy. see the thing here, marvel keeps going back and forth between universe/multiverse/megaverse/omniverse/and even omniversES. so you cant tell when the hell its being serious or when it is hyperboling{although all things above megaversal levels are legally false not to mention logically}.

Lucifer only created a universe and only because of Michael's power.

^read lucifer NIRVANA. mazikeen refers to lucifer's UNIVERSE and lucifer corrects her by saying, "what i created was a TOTALITY, a MULTIVERSE". those are lucifer's words not mine.

as to the image posted by GN, it is directly contradicted by the fact that death amont others was completel helpless and fell like a fly against the infinite gauntlett in posession of thanos. which was just a universal power. again, it is the problem with going from universe-multiverse etc marvel is bad at these things. kinda like how it said that genis vell was an OMNIVERSAL telepath.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^read lucifer NIRVANA. mazikeen refers to lucifer's UNIVERSE and lucifer corrects her by saying, "what i created was a TOTALITY, a MULTIVERSE". those are lucifer's words not mine.
Source

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5906/lucifermultiverseos8gc5.th.jpg

Originally posted by leonheartmm
really now, i posted a scan before where it was heavily implied that the beyonder himself wud not survive the destruction of the multiverse. he didnt destroy the multiverse with an emotion for heaven's sake.

No the scan implied he MIGHT not survive destruction of time itself. And the guy that said it also said he was the living embodiment of SUPREME power. So youve come this far you have to start lieing and making things up.

Like Mr Master alredy said you removed all the inportant parts of the page.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^read lucifer NIRVANA. mazikeen refers to lucifer's UNIVERSE and lucifer corrects her by saying, "what i created was a TOTALITY, a MULTIVERSE". those are lucifer's words not mine.
Dude, I own the entire Lucifer series. Don't patronize me with me with your petty statements.

That's one claim from Lucifer in a standalone story vs the multitude of statements from other characters, the narrator, and Lucifer himself in the main series that directly prove that Lucifer created a universe, an unfinished universe at that, and nothing more.

Multiverse*

TOAA/god depends on the writer/artist and above all editor in-chief.

During Beyonder's reign,
Beyonder was the representative avatar of the writer/editor in-chief Jim Shooter,
in fact, Beyonder, according to Shooter himself, was really above even his avatar,
senseless as that is, that's how far the exaggeration of his power became.

Again, that's why the forced retcon came into play.


So what does this lead to?


TOAA/god is the Supreme being now.

According to Jim Shooter the WRITER/EDITOR in-Chief of all Marvel,
Beyonder was a GOD unto himself, in his own Reality,
and the entire infinite Marvel reality was like a drop of water to his ocean of a reality.

When Beyonder was around, he was the "Supreme being"
that came from another universe where he was also the Supreme being,
yes, he came to the Marvel Universe, took over, and became Reality. (Supreme being)


Beyonder withIN the Marvel Reality:


http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8379/beyonderisrealitydw2.th.jpg

"The Mightiest beings are microbes to me"

"Reality isn't real to me! Eveything is what I say it is"

"My imagination and reality are virtually indistinguishable"

"All Existence, except for me, might as well be a figment of my imagination"




http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1592/b3rd6.th.jpg

"I who utterly dictate All Reality"




http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7766/b4qh2.th.jpg

"As long as I conceive of things, they exist, in a fashion,
because my thoughts equal Reality"

...........................................................................................

The Beyonder was, what TOAA is now in a way.

Only TOAA was unheard of, because TOAA was basically Jim Shooter,
same guy who created the Beyonder/Secret Wars,
and was Editor in-Chief of Marvel at the time,
besides ALSO being the Writer of secret wars I-II.

And Jim Shooter placed himself BENEATH the Beyonder's power,

believe it or not, but read it for your self:


...........................................................................................


The Beyonder between 1984 and 1986,
was everything outside the Marvel Multiverse, (Infinite Beyond)
was GOD before Genesis, (a Supreme Being)
and in comparison with the entire Marvel Reality the Beyond Realm was like an Ocean,
while the entire Marvel Reality was like a drop of water.

Writer's own words! ^^^

......................................................................................


Jim Shooter - creator/writer of Secret Wars/Beyonder
(while he was Editor in chief of Marvel)

Get's interviewed ... about the Beyonder.

......................................................................................


Marvel Age is an official Marvel title, created to strictly discuss Marvel stories,
and other intricacies concerning Marvel comics.

......................................................................................


Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:


Jim states:


1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"


swank


This is why Beyonder had to be retconned, (de-powered)
simply too much grander and power.

...........................................................................................

...........................................................................................


MILLIONS of times more powerful than the Living Tribunal,
and the rest of Marvel combined:

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

...........................................................................................


This is why!


....................................................................


The LT was afraid of the Beyonder, Desperate in FACT:

....................................................................


When Uatu gathered the Cosmic Hierarchy (the LT included)

the In-Betweener says about Mephisto,

"Surely this is his day of last resorts ... he is desperate ... AS ARE WE"

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2595/beyo1hr6.th.jpg

I believe "WE" included the LT (who is there)

................................................................................................


After Beyonder erased Death from the Multiverse,
the Hierarchy (including the LT) accepts their fate,

then the MM shows up and they all step aside: (as if salvation arrived)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1442/26796258iu4.th.jpg

LOL!

................................................................................................


Who's the ONLY being to ever make the LT tremble in fear?

Beyonder, that's who.

The Living Tribunal and the hierarchy literally,
were quaking in their pants at the thought of what Beyonder would do,
if Eternity failed,
when Eternity actually mustered some courage to attempt an attack:

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8900/beto2za1.th.jpg

"The Mighty of the MULTIVERSE (the LT included) TREMBLE"

................................................................................................

................................................................................................


Beyonder's top feat


Creating from nothingness ... the Beyond Realm
(a Reality quintillions of times more infinite, than the infinite prime Multiverse)

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/197/bekw8.th.jpg

"A Universe to which OUR OWN is as a droplet of Water to the Ocean"



=== note ===

There are roughly around 20-25 Quintillion drops of Water in the Ocean,
according to the Mathematical Biosciences Intitute in 2005
and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

................................................................................................


"OUR OWN" Universe ... is the infinite prime Multiverse:


...................................................................................

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7222/beyonderexploresthemulitverseoy9.th.jpg

"Odd thing He had noticed about our Universe"

"Namely that it is Many-Layered

composed of a seemingly Endless Number of Dimensions,

indeed, it is a MULTIVERSE"

...................................................................................


And now .. On Panel!


Beyonder's top feat


Creating from nothingness ... the Beyond Realm
(a Reality quintillions of times more infinite, than the infinite prime Multiverse)

........................................................................................


Beyonder CREATING/BECOMING the INFINITE Beyond:


http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/8944/buni2ke0.th.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9502/buni3oe1so5.th.jpg

http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/6076/buni4xn9.th.jpg

"Masses form in the Void, Stars, Suns, and Planets ... LIFE Arises"

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4980/b3oz3.th.jpg

"Meeting NO resistance in the INFINITE BEYOND"

........................................................................................

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/5558/buni5it5.th.jpg

"Evolves and Flourishes Within the New Universe,
BEGAT (brought into existence) by Beyonder's Power"

"Mortal Beings giving meaning to the INFINITY in which they dwell"

........................................................................................

swank

Btw. This infinity is actually an uberdiculous Multiverse:

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4372/beyonderismultikh8.th.jpg

"Beyonder, the entity that embodied all the substance of Another Multiverse"

........................................................................................


Just like Writer/Editor in-Chief, Jim Shooter stated in his interview.

"sighs" you are quite good at that lol.

doesn't change the fact that the beyonder never fought the LT.

The LT didn't wield the authority that he now wields.

That The one above is mightier than the beyonder. So that would mean, If The Lt was told by the one above all to stop the classic beyonder from taking over his omniverse, he would have to.

The beyonder's crib, is now the omniverse which the Lt currently presides over. Your honor the LT.

Mr. M, simply show him the interview where Starlin states that Beyonder was liek God before the Genesis.

Originally posted by Air Legend
Dude, I own the entire Lucifer series. Don't patronize me with me with your petty statements.

That's one claim from Lucifer in a standalone story vs the multitude of statements from other characters, the narrator, and Lucifer himself in the main series that directly prove that Lucifer created a universe, an unfinished universe at that, and nothing more.

excuse me, lucifer nirvana is cannon and in continuity. it was written by mike carey who has written EVERY OTHER LUCIFER COMIC in the normal series. so how can you claim that it is a standalone story. it introduces the silkman who becomes a significant enough part of the series near the end. and lucifer's universe was not unfinished, what the devil makes you say that? it was the same as yahweh's. also, even in yahweh's "universe" near the mansions of silence, there are other CREATIONs in the form of mirrors which are entire universes themselves where alternate cal comes from proving that it was infact a multiverse as was lucifer's.

as for mr. master, tell me, how do you compare infinity to infinity????? what impartial standpoint will you judge the two by, in response to everything you have posted{and my points on word conventions still remain}

Originally posted by Astner
Mr. M, simply show him the interview where Starlin states that Beyonder was liek God before the Genesis.

He already posted it.

Do people ever take the time to read through previous pages? I mean damn.

Originally posted by Astner
Mr. M, simply show him the interview where Starlin states that Beyonder was liek God before the Genesis.

Beyonder was NOTHING like God before genesis. God didn't discover someone elses multiverse. God made everything. God was not a dummy. God knew the beginning and ends of time at the same time. God knew what death was for. He created it. He wouldn't kill it. God did not self discover. He simply is. Starlin's interview means nothing to me with the beyonder doing so many things that are Un Supreme being like.

Originally posted by Air Legend
He already posted it.

Do people ever take the time to read through previous pages? I mean damn. who the hell wants to read thru all the same repeated scans and crap over and over.

Originally posted by Air Legend
He already posted it.

Do people ever take the time to read through previous pages? I mean damn.
It's quite sad actually. He spend hours scanning, cutting, writing to explain to those who're unaware. And because some people don't chose to read it the first time, he have to redo it.
That requires a huge amount of patience. I'd snap after a few posts.

Yea, evidence is boring, who needs it.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Beyonder was NOTHING like God before genesis. God didn't discover someone elses multiverse. God made everything. God was not a dummy. God knew the beginning and ends of time at the same time. God knew what death was for. He created it. He wouldn't kill it. God did not self discover. He simply is. Starlin's interview means nothing to me with the beyonder doing so many things that are Un Supreme being like.

Well if you simply want to ignore on panel evidence alongside the writer's statement, I don't there's much of a point in debating with you, now is there? You refuse to accept anything that goes against your preconceived notion or even comes remotely close to proving you wrong.

Sometimes you need to stop acting like a dumbass and admit you're wrong. You'll never admit that you're wrong, that's just how it is.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Beyonder was NOTHING like God before genesis. God didn't discover someone elses multiverse. God made everything. God was not a dummy. God knew the beginning and ends of time at the same time. God knew what death was for. He created it. He wouldn't kill it. God did not self discover. He simply is. Starlin's interview means nothing to me with the beyonder doing so many things that are Un Supreme being like.



Do you actully think your opinion > directly stated by the creator of the character?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
excuse me, lucifer nirvana is cannon and in continuity. it was written by mike carey who has written EVERY OTHER LUCIFER COMIC in the normal series. so how can you claim that it is a standalone story. it introduces the silkman who becomes a significant enough part of the series near the end.

and lucifer's universe was not unfinished, what the devil makes you say that? it was the same as yahweh's. also, even in yahweh's "universe" near the mansions of silence, there are other CREATIONs in the form of mirrors which are entire universes themselves where alternate cal comes from proving that it was infact a multiverse as was lucifer's.

Lucifer Nirvana is a one-shot, standalone story. That's why they have it after the end of the last issue of Lucifer (#75) in last volume, EVENSONG. In other words, it is completely unnecessary for understanding what happened in the main series, thus, a standalone story.

Read Lucifer Morningstar Volume 10 again. Elaine is flying over Lucifer's universe and notices "dimensions left incomplete, and those where initially tiny flaws have grown MONSTROUS."

Originally posted by Air Legend
Lucifer Nirvana is a one-shot, standalone story. That's why they have it after the end of the last issue of Lucifer (#75) in last volume, EVENSONG. In other words, it is completely unnecessary for understanding what happened in the main series, thus, a standalone story.

Read Lucifer Morningstar Volume 10 again. Elaine is flying over Lucifer's universe and notices "dimensions left incomplete, and those where initially tiny flaws have grown MONSTROUS."

but those dimension{seen to be universes} also exist in yahweh's universe. they were the place where hell was made, they were also the place of the mirrors before the mansions of silence. and if i remember correctly, the add for lucifer nirvana was present in an issue of lucifer before issue 50. and it doesnt matter. the story was written by mike carey who wrote everything else in lucifer. so it is cannon and tells that it was a multiverse.

Originally posted by llagrok
Well if you simply want to ignore on panel evidence alongside the writer's statement, I don't there's much of a point in debating with you, now is there? You refuse to accept anything that goes against your preconceived notion or even comes remotely close to proving you wrong.

Sometimes you need to stop acting like a dumbass and admit you're wrong. You'll never admit that you're wrong, that's just how it is.
why are you being like that? I'm acting like a dumb ass? OMG. did you not know that most people in the world are not smart. they follow the few. And many times the few are wrong. How in the HELL is The molecule man more powerful than the LT when He has NO feats above the LT's? How is the Beyonder stronger than the LT when the beyonder was only everything outside of the multiverse? everything outside of the multiverse is now the omniverse. Which the Lt presides over. Get over yourself. Get over blind fanboyism. Get over not thinking clearly and use some smarts.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, evidence is boring, who needs it.

shrug

Carey wrote it AFTER the series, and stated that it was a multiverse.

Sounds like it's a multiverse to me.

Originally posted by Astner
It's quite sad actually. He spend hours scanning, cutting, writing to explain to those who're unaware. And because some people don't chose to read it the first time, he have to redo it.
That requires a huge amount of patience. I'd snap after a few posts.

evidence? no. I disagree. what I'm looking for hasn't been shown. statements that hold no weight what so ever to the current characters. Statements about the Lt in 19freaking 84? OMG. Get real. no amount of insulting or calling names is going to make me see that silly comparison. it's silly. really.

Originally posted by fangirl101
why are you being like that? I'm acting like a dumb ass? OMG. did you not know that most people in the world are not smart. they follow the few. And many times the few are wrong. How in the HELL is The molecule man more powerful than the LT when He has NO feats above the LT's? How is the Beyonder stronger than the LT when the beyonder was only everything outside of the multiverse? everything outside of the multiverse is now the omniverse. Which the Lt presides over. Get over yourself. Get over blind fanboyism. Get over not thinking clearly and use some smarts.
Stop preaching and read through the facts presented until you understand them.

Originally posted by Astner
Stop preaching and read through the facts presented until you understand them. I read it. Now you THINK.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I read it. Now you THINK.

So to win a debate you have to ignore all facts and make your own crazy theory's?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
but those dimension{seen to be universes} also exist in yahweh's universe. they were the place where hell was made, they were also the place of the mirrors before the mansions of silence. and if i remember correctly, the add for lucifer nirvana was present in an issue of lucifer before issue 50. and it doesnt matter. the story was written by mike carey who wrote everything else in lucifer. so it is cannon and tells that it was a multiverse.
Dude, I knew you were going to exaggerate dimensions into universes. To put it bluntly, they are not. A dimension is just part of the universe, like Sandalphon's dimension where he kept Michael. Lucifer Nirvana was made around issue 20 (21 if I remember correctly).

It doesn't matter that Mike Carey wrote it, one-shot, standalone stories are just that. I'll repeat, he put Lucifer Nirvana at the very end. If Nirvana was not intended to be a standalone, one-shot story, Carey would have incorporated it into volume 3 or 4, not after the end of the Lucifer series. Plus, the numerous on panel showings after Nirvana in the MAIN series stating Lucifer's creation was a universe overrides Lucifer's sole remark. Hell Lucifer himself calls his creation a universe in the main series.

So you refuse to accept Nirvana as canon?

Originally posted by GN. So to win a debate you have to ignore all facts and make your own crazy theory's?_ My own crazy theory? It is my right to think that the LT is NOt The same as in 1984. The evidence clearly shows this. the LT faced the heart and didn't quake. He rules over the omniverse. Back then he just ruled over a multiverse.

LT doesn't not rule....

Originally posted by fangirl101
My own crazy theory? It is my right to think that the LT is NOt The same as in 1984. The evidence clearly shows this. the LT faced the heart and didn't quake. He rules over the omniverse. Back then he just ruled over a multiverse.

Since back then there only was a multiverse. LT faced the heart and got owned and absorbed.

Originally posted by GN.
Since back then there only was a multiverse. LT faced the heart and got owned and absorbed.

And he FACED He FACED. He didn't quake. He didn't tremble. He wasn't a coward. And he has MORE authority now than then.

Blah blah blah...

"My infinity is greater than your infinity!"

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6112/26anikawadzuemotetx9.gif

That's all these high level character debates ever really boil down to.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And he FACED He FACED. He didn't quake. He didn't tremble. He wasn't a coward. And he has MORE authority now than then.

That means he was less inpressed with the HOTU then with the Beyonder. Its like saying if spiderman is scared of the LT in the early days. And then in the present hes not scared of a fly. That he has more authority now than then.

Originally posted by Avlon
Blah blah blah...

"My infinity is greater than your infinity!"

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6112/26anikawadzuemotetx9.gif

That's all these high level character debates ever really boil down to.
SHUT UP AVLON

Originally posted by GN.
That means he was less inpressed with the HOTU then with the Beyonder. Its like saying if spiderman is scared of the LT in the early days. And then in the present hes not scared of a fly. That he has more authority now than then.

Huh?