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Since it's Lt's job to guard the marvel omniverse, and the beyonder discovers the Marvel Universe today, would the LT have the power to stop the Classic Beyonder? As if the LT had never met the Classic beyonder and he never shook in his boots. If they had to have a confrontation and god says to the Lt, I give you all authority to protect my crib, could the LT do it?

Does this mean that LT is given additional power by the TOAA or simply that it's the LT's job to protect the Omniverse? If it's the latter, isn't your post redundant given that the LT's job is to protect the Omniverse?

Umm LT is not like the Spectre...

Originally posted by Harbinger
Does this mean that LT is given additional power by the TOAA or simply that it's the LT's job to protect the Omniverse? If it's the latter, isn't your post redundant given that the LT's job is to protect the Omniverse?

The LT is already given ALL power by The One above all to protect the Omniverse. So it's his job to do so. Would he be able to protect the Omniverse from the classic beyonder given that he is the Omniversal Protector and the One above all gives him an edict to do so.

if LT has the support of his/its boss...TOAA ..than i guess whatever power is needed is given.....

cheers

Originally posted by lannfear
if LT has the support of his/its boss...TOAA ..than i guess whatever power is needed is given.....

cheers its all hypothetical

good thread, friend

toaa is lt boss

unlike dc, where the presence empowers spectre

if toaa wanted lt to defeat the beyonder, in theory...yes

beyonder falls

thats right its all hypothetical.....its about comic characters...not real...although the way some people carry on ..you'd think that they are real...

cheers

Originally posted by lannfear
thats right its all hypothetical.....its about comic characters...not real...although the way some people carry on ..you'd think that they are real...

cheers why do you keep dancng

well, i stay out of those threads

Originally posted by I love DC
why do you keep dancng


only exercise i get.....

If you mean The-One-Above-All as a fictional character, within the omniverse. Then It's a stalemate, basically God (-before genesis) vs God.
The Living Tribunal is a non-factor.

Beyonder swells the TOAA's lip.

TOAA would have to grant LT ALL his power just to stalemate
Classic Beyonder IMO.

Supreme being vs Supreme being ......... Stalemate!

Originally posted by fangirl101
Since it's Lt's job to guard the marvel omniverse, and the beyonder discovers the Marvel Universe today, would the LT have the power to stop the Classic Beyonder? As if the LT had never met the Classic beyonder and he never shook in his boots. If they had to have a confrontation and god says to the Lt, I give you all authority to protect my crib, could the LT do it?
The LT of today would get curbstomped.
just like the old one would've got stomped.

Btw. The LT is NOT the guardian, he is the Judge!

The LT of today is not TOAA.

The LT is the LT with a set power,
a power Protege copied,
a power Scathan may equal.

................................................................................

Toaa/God withIN the Omniverse of today. (THOTI)
would stalemate Beyonder.

Because they are BOTH backed by Writers. (Jim Shooter and Jim Starlin)

The artist of "The End: Marvel" ... is Al Milgrom

The artist of "Secret Wars II" ... is Al Milgrom.


So, what's the difference?

Jim Shooter was both writer and Editor in-Chief of all Marvel.

Does this give Beyonder the edge?

Meh, not necessarily imo.

Stalemate!

Stalemate, but it's a pointless thread. Aunt May with backing of TOAA would stalemate Classic Beyonder also.

Beyonder is TOAA lol

If the writer (TOAA) want LT to win (giving him full backing) then yes he would win against Beyonder.

But as Celestialdemon said Aunt May with full backing could win (ore was it stalemate?)

Originally posted by Utrigita

If the writer (TOAA) want LT to win (giving him full backing)
then yes he would win against Beyonder.
But both writers would have to agree that Beyonder loses,
otherwise, that scenario can't be accepted.

Beyonder was the supreme power according to Shooter. (all Marvel)

Toaa/THOTI is now the supreme power, according to Starlin. (all Marvel)

This match is senseless because it brings into opposition the Writers themselves.

We can't just say, if the LT had TOAA's backing he wins,
because according to Shooter, Beyonder dominated the Marvelverse,
and if that was TOAA's creation, we'll then there you go with that drop of water.

On the other hand,
was the Beyonder a/the precursor to what TOAA is?

(after all, we never heard of Toaa) if anything the LT was like "God" back then.

..................................................................................

Earliest official mention of a power above the LT's
was in 1990 I believe:

..................................................................................

The Living Tribunal is said "his Power is Supreme in ALL the Multiverse"

"Even I, the Son of the mighiest of gods of all,
find it impossible to conceive of such levels of power"

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6564/lt19vm3.th.jpg

"Tis a humbling thought to consider
how much greater still the power of the Creator of all Universes must be
than that of all of his creations combined"

..................................................................................

Is that from Thor? Because he kinda compared Odin and Galactus :/

it is

Then don't use it as evidence Master :/

Because it's Thor's ramblings.

It seems like a good scan, good friend

I have no problem with ppl using Thanos w/HOTI or Beyonder(Pre Retcon)

Beyonder was the all for a short time('82-85) Shooter abused his power and was ganged up on. Hence the many retcons. Beyonder was the TOAA in '82. Kinda funny because when LT appeared in Strange Tales #158...He was the man

In theory, if TOAA wants LT to win. IMO, he will.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But both writers would have to agree that Beyonder loses,
otherwise, that scenario can't be accepted.

Beyonder was the supreme power according to Shooter. (all Marvel)

Toaa/THOTI is now the supreme power, according to Starlin. (all Marvel)

This match is senseless because it brings into opposition the Writers themselves.

We can't just say, if the LT had TOAA's backing he wins,
because according to Shooter, Beyonder dominated the Marvelverse,
and if that was TOAA's creation, we'll then there you go with that drop of water.

On the other hand,
was the Beyonder a/the precursor to what TOAA is?

(after all, we never heard of Toaa) if anything the LT was like "God" back then.

..................................................................................

Earliest official mention of a power above the LT's
was in 1990 I believe:

..................................................................................

The Living Tribunal is said "his Power is Supreme in ALL the Multiverse"

"Even I, the Son of the mighiest of gods of all,
find it impossible to conceive of such levels of power"

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6564/lt19vm3.th.jpg

"Tis a humbling thought to consider
how much greater still the power of the Creator of all Universes must be
than that of all of his creations combined"

..................................................................................

The only one that had to accept the fact would in reality be the Chief Editor, to my knowlegde Shooter wasn't asked when Beyonder was retconned practically into nothingness in comparison to what he was before they just did it, furthermore master, Fangirl101 asked what would happen IF Beyonder found the Marvel Omniverse today ( the Beyonder hadn't existed prior but was introduced with the same power) then the Writer could effectivly write LT to defeat the Beyonder since that beyonder that would be used would be the creation of the current writer and not Shooters, hence the current writer can write the story pretty much as he likes. That includes writing LT to be above him. This isn't fact based it's from my point of view strictly theory.

Editors>Writers

In the real world yes.

From a fictionel standpoint the writers however are God.

Originally posted by Utrigita

The only one that had to accept the fact would in reality be the Chief Editor,
to my knowlegde Shooter wasn't asked when Beyonder was retconned practically into nothingness
in comparison to what he was before they just did it
Shooter wasn't asked because Shooter wasn't Editor in-Chief.

Shooter left that position in 1987.

Beyonder was retconned in 1988.

Originally posted by Utrigita

furthermore master, Fangirl101 asked what would happen IF Beyonder found the Marvel Omniverse today ( the Beyonder hadn't existed prior but was introduced with the same power) then the Writer could effectivly write LT to defeat the Beyonder since that beyonder that would be used would be the creation of the current writer and not Shooters, hence the current writer can write the story pretty much as he likes. That includes writing LT to be above him. This isn't fact based it's from my point of view strictly theory.
Well, of course Beyonder loses in that heavily stipulated scenario.

That's spite in fact.

Originally posted by llagrok

Then don't use it as evidence Master

Because it's Thor's ramblings.
Evidence?

I was only showing the earliest acknowledgement of a power above the LT on panel.

Ramblings?

He didn't compare Odin to Celestials,
in fact,
he clearly says that Odin empowered by all Asgard/destroyer armor, still got stomped.

The LT is the Supreme entity, and there is only one above him.


Doesn't seem like rambling to me,
quite precise in fact.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Shooter wasn't asked because Shooter wasn't Editor in-Chief.

Shooter left that position in 1987.

Beyonder was retconned in 1988.

Hence Shooters opinion on whether ore not his Character should be beaten today by LT would be meaningless, it's all up to the Chief Editor to decide if he wants that outcome. If Shooter was asked it would be out of politeness not because he has a real influence on the subject.

Originally posted by Mr Master Well, of course Beyonder loses in that heavily stipulated scenario.

That's spite in fact.

That it is. Hence under these circumstances Beyonder would lose.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Evidence?

I was only showing the earliest acknowledgement of a power above the LT on panel.

Ramblings?

He didn't compare Odin to Celestials,
in fact,
he clearly says that Odin empowered by all Asgard/destroyer armor, still got stomped.

The LT is the Supreme entity, and there is only one above him.


Doesn't seem like rambling to me,
quite precise in fact.

Compared Odin to GALACTUS not Celestials.

Does he say that on that page?

Because Galactus by Kubiks account is regarded to operate on a higher level then the Celestials.

But there is a difference between thor and kubik...

Originally posted by llagrok

Compared Odin to GALACTUS not Celestials.
Darn, the rest of that page, is not in my mind right now so I can find it,
but if he said that, let's hope he was talking about a hungry Galactus.

Then again, perhaps in those days, that was a plausibility.

But he was on point with the others though,
and that's what's of consequence concerning the LT.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Darn, the rest of that page, is not in my mind right now so I can find it,
but if he said that, let's hope he was talking about a hungry Galactus.

Then again, perhaps in those days, that was a plausibility.

But he was on point with the others though,
and that's what's of consequence concerning the LT.

It sorts of ruins Thor's credibility.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Hence Shooters opinion on whether ore not his Character should be beaten today by LT would be meaningless, it's all up to the Chief Editor to decide if he wants that outcome. If Shooter was asked it would be out of politeness not because he has a real influence on the subject.
So, this isn't even classic Beyonder then.

This is a character that never existed in Marvel and we're calling it Beyonder.

This is the thread starter's Beyonder.

Originally posted by Utrigita

That it is. Hence under these circumstances Beyonder would lose.
Since this involves imaginary characters unrelated to Marvel,
I'm interested in this debate.

Originally posted by llagrok

It sorts of ruins Thor's credibility.
So he gave his pops more props than he should've,
let's not crucify the man.

Again,
he was 100% accurate describing everything else so ...
I'll give em the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So he gave his pops more props than he should've,
let's not crucify the man.

Again,
he was 100% accurate describing everything else so ...
I'll give em the benefit of the doubt.

I think he was 100% accurate in everything, including what he said about Odin.

Am I correct?

I posted the scan before Odin says Galactus' power rivals my own

Originally posted by guy222
I posted the scan before Odin says Galactus' power rivals my own

Awesome :O

Could you link me?

Originally posted by llagrok

I think he was 100% accurate in everything, including what he said about Odin.

Am I correct?
?

I thought you said that dampened his credibility?

Are you messing with lla?

Let me look thru some dvd-rs and scans

We use fictional characters in these forums, right?
So when we say The-One-Above-All, we refere to the fictional supreme power of Marvel.
A writer isn't a fictional or comicbook character, hence can't be used in these forums.

The-One-Above-All is the supreme force now, Beyonder was the supreme force then. The Living Tribunal is a non-factor.

PS: Mr M, you havn't answered my PM:s. If it's not too much of a bother could you please go through them. Thanks

Originally posted by Astner
We use fictional characters in these forums, right?
So when we say The-One-Above-All, we refere to the fictional supreme power of Marvel.
A writer isn't a fictional or comicbook character, hence can't be used in these forums.

The-One-Above-All is the supreme force now, Beyonder was the supreme force then. The Living Tribunal is a non-factor.

Originally posted by Astner

PS: Mr M, you havn't answered my PM:s. If it's not too much of a bother could you please go through them. Thanks
I will friend.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So, this isn't even classic Beyonder then.

This is a character that never existed in Marvel and we're calling it Beyonder.

This is the thread starter's Beyonder.

To some degree it's the classic beyonder just not Shooters beyonder (if that makes any sense), the Threadstarter asked what if Classic Beyonder was introduced today and then TOAA wants LT to defeat Beyonder, I think it's the deal with the backing. In My Opinion it would be a yes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Since this involves imaginary characters unrelated to Marvel,
I'm interested in this debate.

Are you interested?

Originally posted by Utrigita

To some degree it's the classic beyonder just not Shooters beyonder
(if that makes any sense)
It doesn't make sense, that's why this isn't Beyonder.
Originally posted by Utrigita

the Threadstarter asked what if Classic Beyonder was introduced today and then TOAA wants LT to defeat Beyonder, I think it's the deal with the backing. In My Opinion it would be a yes.
Yea, the thread started created a stipulation
that makes it impossible for Beyonder to win.

That's simple spite.
Originally posted by Utrigita

Are you interested?
I missed the not in that post.

Originally posted by Mr Master
It doesn't make sense, that's why this isn't Beyonder.

Yea, the thread started created a stipulation
that makes it impossible for Beyonder to win.

That's simple spite.

I missed the not in that post.

hehe thought so

Anyway we agree, it's spite.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Anyway we agree, it's spite.

Originally posted by Utrigita
hehe thought so

Anyway we agree, it's spite.

How the hell is it spite? The beyonder would still have the power levels he had yesteryear, so he would be insanely powerful. Spite would be the LT vs. Batman.

LT for the win


It dont look like spite to me

Originally posted by starlock
LT for the win


It dont look like spite to me

Exactly. All it means is that the beyonder would be in the beyond wrealm and discover the Marvel U as it appears today.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Spite would be the LT vs. Batman.

I don't know, Batman with prep...

Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't know, Batman with prep...

Unless your name is reed richards, you can't prep for the LT.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Unless your name is reed richards, you can't prep for the LT.

I was kidding. No one should be able to do anything to LT with or without prep nowadays. Reed being a challenge to LT with prep is the PIS of immeasurable order.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I was kidding. No one should be able to do anything to LT with or without prep nowadays. Reed being a challenge to LT with prep is the PIS of immeasurable order.

OF couse. Especially since the LT should have known what would happen before it happened.

MC2 Universe

LT later showed up in She Hulk and was simply goin to replace 616 Earth with the Ultimate Version

Originally posted by guy222
MC2 Universe

LT later showed up in She Hulk and was simply goin to replace 616 Earth with the Ultimate Version

Yes. He was actually going to strip away all power from the 616 and just swap out the spine of the MU with the Ultimate U. He never showed such power in the days of the secret wars.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Yea, the thread starter created a stipulation

that makes it impossible for Beyonder to win.

That's simple spite.

Originally posted by Mr Master

This isn't even classic Beyonder then.

This is a character that never existed in Marvel and we're calling it Beyonder.

This is the thread starter's Beyonder.


Since this involves imaginary characters unrelated to Marvel,

I'm NOT interested in this debate.

Originally posted by Mr Master


That is called flaming. If you dont' like the thread you dont' have to post in it. I merely gave the scenario of if the Beyonder came to the marvel Universe today with his same powerset, and the LT's job was to protect it at all cost. You don't like the thread, ask the mods to close it.

But, if you're interested in my official opinion,
it's here from the first page:

====================================

The LT of today would get curbstomped.
just like the old one would've got stomped.

Btw. The LT is NOT the guardian, he is the Judge!

The LT of today is not TOAA.

The LT is the LT with a set power,
a power Protege copied,
a power Scathan may equal.

................................................................................


Toaa/God withIN the Omniverse of today. (THOTI)
would stalemate Beyonder.

Because they are BOTH backed by Writers. (Jim Shooter and Jim Starlin)


The artist of "The End: Marvel" ... is Al Milgrom

The artist of "Secret Wars II" ... is Al Milgrom.


So, what's the difference?

Jim Shooter was both writer and Editor in-Chief of all Marvel.

Does this give Beyonder the edge?

Meh, not necessarily imo.

Stalemate!

Originally posted by Mr Master
But, if you're interested in official opinion,
it's here from the first page:

Um NO. THe LT is backed by the writer as it states he answers only to TOAA. The only reason he lost to thanos with the heart is because he wasn't backed by the writer. Or his three faces didn't agree. We all know that is a weakness of the LT's .

Originally posted by fangirl101

Um NO. THe LT is backed by the writer as it states he answers only to TOAA. The only reason he lost to thanos with the heart is because he wasn't backed by the writer.
Nice.

The Beyonder was also backed by the Writer (who is also the Editor in Chief)

See how this creates a paradox.

My writer vs your writer.

In which case Shooter wins, since Shooter was both Writer and Editor in-Chief.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Or his three faces didn't agree. We all know that is a weakness of the LT's .
That's definitely not the reason, LT was simply curbstomped by the power of God.

And that's not a weakness, it simply prohibits him to act,
but if LT acts, LT's coming at cha full LT style.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nice.

The Beyonder was also backed by the Writer (who is also the Editor in Chief)

See how this creates a paradox.

My writer vs your writer.

In which case Shooter wins, since Shooter was both Writer and Editor in-Chief.


That's definitely not the reason, LT was simply curbstomped by the power of God.

And that's not a weakness, it simply prohibits him to act,
but if LT acts, LT's coming at cha full LT style.

Either way, The LT is simply God of Marvel as long as The One above deams it so. Really, He is the match of the classic Beyonder in Everyway. There is NOTHING that the classic beyonder could do in Marvel that the LT couldn't undo, or remake.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Yes. He was actually going to strip away all power from the 616 and just swap out the spine of the MU with the Ultimate U. He never showed such power in the days of the secret wars.

Like I said earlier, Shooter made Beyonder the all. Doin that, he made enemies at Marvel. Hence the numerous retcons

Again, if TOAA wants Living Tribunal to defeat Beyonder. IMO, he will

My friends will discuss longer than me. Its hard comparing two different eras

Originally posted by guy222
Like I said earlier, Shooter made Beyonder the all. Doin that, he made enemies at Marvel. Hence the numerous retcons

Again, if TOAA wants Living Tribunal to defeat Beyonder. IMO, he will

My friends will discuss longer than me. Its hard comparing two different eras

Originally posted by guy222
Like I said earlier, Shooter made Beyonder the all. Doin that, he made enemies at Marvel. Hence the numerous retcons

Again, if TOAA wants Living Tribunal to defeat Beyonder. IMO, he will

My friends will discuss longer than me. Its hard comparing two different eras

Which is why you can't say that The beyonder is automatically more powerful than The LT using the OLD showings of the LT in a preretconned era.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Either way,
The LT is simply God of Marvel as long as The One above deams it so.
Not true. The LT has never been God.

But Beyonder really was God as long as Toaa/Editor in-Chief (Shooter) was there.

So again, this match up is senseless if we turn the LT into THOTI/Toaa.

Originally posted by fangirl101

Really, He is the match of the classic Beyonder in Everyway. There is NOTHING that the classic beyonder could do in Marvel that the LT couldn't undo, or remake.
Originally posted by Mr Master

The Beyonder was also backed by the Writer (who is also the Editor in Chief)

See how this creates a paradox.

My writer vs your writer.

In which case Shooter wins, since Shooter was both Writer and Editor in-Chief.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not true. The LT has never been God.

But Beyonder really was God as long as Toaa/Editor in-Chief (Shooter) was there.

So again, this match up is senseless if we turn the LT into THOTI/Toaa.

Even if it creates a paradox, it does really show that The classic beyonder is in no way far more powerful than the LT who really does have the backing of the one above all in today's marvel U. The LT has never been God, and niether has Thanos nor The Beyonder. The God of marvel is The one above all. always has been.

Originally posted by guy222

Again, if TOAA wants Living Tribunal to defeat Beyonder. IMO, he will
What if Jim Shooter doesn't want Beyonder to lose, then what?

See, that's a conflict of interest.

Which is why it's a stalemate,
not against the LT, but against THOTI itself.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Even if it creates a paradox, it does really show that The classic beyonder is in no way far more powerful than the LT who really does have the backing of the one above all in today's marvel U. The LT has never been God, and niether has Thanos nor The Beyonder. The God of marvel is The one above all. always has been.

I find it interesting that there is no definitive proof that HOTU was TOAA's power,yet we have proof LT is only under TOAA,and yet beyonder and molecule man made him tremble with fear in the past.

So if today the beyonder showed up and everything happened exactly as it did before....would everybody say that Beyonder had TOAA's power?Would we say Molecule man has TOAA"S power?

Originally posted by fangirl101

Even if it creates a paradox, it does really show that The classic beyonder is in no way far more powerful than the LT who really does have the backing of the one above all in today's marvel U.
So Beyonder didn't really have the backing of Shooter?

When Shooter even made enemies because he backed the Beyonder so much.

Again,

my writer vs your writer.

and my writer/editor in-chief wins.

Originally posted by fangirl101

The LT has never been God
True that.
Originally posted by fangirl101

and niether has Thanos nor The Beyonder.
False.
Originally posted by fangirl101

The God of marvel is The one above all. always has been.
He is, but hasn't always been.

During Beyonder's era, Beyonder was the Supreme power,
far beyond all of Marvel.

"Toaa" (and more) if anything, was Shooter,
and Shooter created Beyonder, and Secret Wars so ...

Originally posted by Mr Master
So Beyonder didn't really have the backing of Shooter?

When Shooter even made enemies because he backed the Beyonder so much.

Again,

my writer vs your writer.

and my writer/editor in-chief wins.


True that.

False.

He is, but hasn't always been.

During Beyonder's era, Beyonder was the Supreme power,
far beyond all of Marvel.

"Toaa" (and more) if anything, was Shooter,
and Shooter created Beyonder, and Secret Wars so ...

If this is true and there was no The one above all when the beyonder came, then that would mean the LT did get a retcon, because he now serves a boss who obviously has given him a massive power amp.

Beyonder is not omniscient

Beyonder can be defeated

Do you really think that TOAA couldn't defeat him while Dr. Doom could?

Originally posted by fangirl101

If this is true and there was no The one above all when the beyonder came, then

that would mean the LT did get a retcon, because he now serves a boss who obviously has given him a massive power amp.
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion,
but, whatever you say.

In the end, the fact is:

My writer vs your writer.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion,
but, whatever you say.

In the end, the fact is:

My writer vs your writer.

It's simple. If you say the beyonder was God of the Classic Days ( I do not agree since he didn't create the MU and he himself is a creation) but what ever, and there was no mention of the One above all as The LT's boss, and now the LT serves TOAA, It would seem the LT got a retcon when ever TOAA got introduced. Which is AFTER the classic Beyonder series. Thus he would indeed be more powerful as he has a more powerful authority backing him and giving him his power.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Beyonder is not omniscient
According to Marvel comics, he was.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Beyonder can be defeated
Unless he willed it, no such thing ever happened.
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Do you really think that TOAA couldn't defeat him while Dr. Doom could?
Unfortunately Doom did nothing without the Beyonder's approval.

To begin with, that wasn't even Doom,
that was Beyonder's coercion at work.
(he plucked a non-existent Doom from the Future)

On top of that,

We later learned that Beyonder sub-consciously allowed Doom to take much of his power,
Beyonder always wanted to give others their wishes,
that was the whole point of Secret Wars,
"slay your enemies, and all you desire, shall be yours."
(but Doom wanted his power so much, and Beyonder in his newb state, gave it to em)

Of course he wasn't omniscient, the whole point was that he was trying to learn about humanity. He never could figure out what humans would do or how they reacted. He even got killed in the end by Molecule Man.

Furthermore, TOAA created Beyonder and Doom and Molecule Man, and everything that was going on....

TOAA drew their comics and wrote the plots.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What if Jim Shooter doesn't want Beyonder to lose, then what?

See, that's a conflict of interest.

Which is why it's a stalemate,
not against the LT, but against THOTI itself.

I'm just gonna have fun with my good friend

The new writers gang up on Shooter

Point is always respected

Originally posted by fangirl101

It's simple. If you say the beyonder was God of the Classic Days ( I do not agree since he didn't create the MU and he himself is a creation) but what ever
I never said Beyonder was God of the classic days.

I said Beyonder was the supreme power.

Someone else created the Marvel Universe, Infinity Being.
Originally posted by fangirl101

and there was no mention of the One above all as The LT's boss, and now the LT serves TOAA, It would seem the LT got a retcon when ever TOAA got introduced. Which is AFTER the classic Beyonder series. Thus he would indeed be more powerful as he has a more powerful authority backing him and giving him his power.
If you want to believe that, be my guess.

But the LT has never been retconned.

There was never an official introduction of Toaa.

There's no mention anywhere of any kind of the LT's power fluctuating in any way,
in any form, at any time, ever.

TOAA (if anything) was Shooter. (I told you this already)
Shooter made Beyonder, "God before Genesis"
Shooter made Beyonder, "a Multiverse" ... ridiculous infinities larger than all of Marvel.

When Beyonder entered the Marvel Universe,
he took over scared the mightiest powers,
and became Reality itself, of every particle.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Of course he wasn't omniscient, the whole point was that he was trying to learn about humanity. He never could figure out what humans would do or how they reacted.
That's because Humanity was so beneath him.

If the infinite Marvel Universe was like a drop of water to this guy,
how much more insignificant would humanity be?

616 itself,
was like single celled paramecia swimming in said drop of water according to Shooter.



Originally posted by Endless Mike

He even got killed in the end by Molecule Man.
You mean when he trasformed himself into a helpless infant?

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Furthermore,
TOAA created Beyonder and Doom and Molecule Man,
and everything that was going on....
Nah, Jim Shooter created Beyonder & Doom & MM & all else.

And according to this OAA:


Jim Shooter himself describes Classic Beyonder to us:


Jim states:


1. Beyonder "is a Multi-verse."

2. Beyonder "was like God before there was Genesis."

3. Beyonder's discovery of our Universe ... (Marvel Multiverse)

.... was like when inventor Leeuwenhoek, looked through his micro-scope ...

.... and discovered little paramecia swimming in a drop of water ... "

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3339/jim1wp8.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/7402/jim2mj1.th.jpg

"We introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

=====================================


In your honest opinion, what do you make of this?


Originally posted by Endless Mike

TOAA drew their comics and wrote the plots.
You mean Jim Shooter who's speaking above?

I agree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What if Jim Shooter doesn't want Beyonder to lose, then what?

Nothing really since he has no significant influence any longer.

Originally posted by Utrigita

Nothing really since he has no significant influence any longer.
So then, we arrived at the same conclusion Ut.

This ain't Shooter's Beyonder,
so I'm not interested in debating an imaginary Beyonder,
created in the image of the thread starter,
with stipulations purposely designed to force the real (if it were) classic Beyonder to lose.

The real Beyonder concerns, Shooter,
who would also have the significant authority of the writer,
but even better, of the Editor in-Chief also.

That's classic Beyonder.


This is why looking at this from that Marvel related perspective,
we quickly realize if it were classic Beyonder in this scenario,
it'd be a Stalemate against the supreme being of Marvel now.

Simple approach....since classic beyonder did get retconned, in the comics...( by the bosses at marvel..whatever)...then he wasn't all powerful ..in the comics.....he thought he was....big difference....

cheers

Originally posted by lannfear

Simple approach....since classic beyonder did get retconned, in the comics...( by the bosses at marvel..whatever)...then he wasn't all powerful ..in the comics.....he thought he was....big difference....
Only Beyonder was only retconned
because the Editor-in-Chief/Writer who created him, had left his position.

He didn't think he was, he was all powerful.
And then he was retconned (de-powered)
because the next Editor in-Chief felt his power was too exaggerated.

What Beyonder became afterwards is, inconsequential,
since we're strictly dealing with the Pre-retcon version.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's because Humanity was so beneath him.

If the infinite Marvel Universe was like a drop of water to this guy,
how much more insignificant would humanity be?

616 itself,
was like single celled paramecia swimming in said drop of water according to Shooter.

Yet he still was unable to figure them out. Thus, not omniscient.

Being vastly more powerful than something =/= understanding it.



Yes, which is a consequence of plot, which TOAA creates.




No, TOAA represents all the writers and all of the company.

There's an interview from Joe Casey that says Superman could beat anyone, so I guess Superman beats Beyonder if you go by interviews so much.

Beyonder was defeated - TOAA defeated him already since TOAA is directly responsible for everything that occurs in a Marvel comic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So then, we arrived at the same conclusion Ut.

This ain't Shooter's Beyonder,
so I'm not interested in debating an imaginary Beyonder,
created in the image of the thread starter,
with stipulations purposely designed to force the real (if it were) classic Beyonder to lose.

The real Beyonder concerns, Shooter,
who would also have the significant authority of the writer,
but even better, of the Editor in-Chief also.

That's classic Beyonder.

Not entirely you asked what if Shooter didn't want beyonder to lose? I replied that what Shooter wanted isn't important, we cannot in my opinion use shooter as argument to say that "Shooter didn't want Beyonder to lose therefore he cannot." Use his interview when he comments on what he liked/wanted to portray Beyonder as, but again Shooters writing stil concerning a Character shouldn't be used.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is why looking at this from that Marvel related perspective,
we quickly realize if it were classic Beyonder in this scenario,
it's be Stalemate against the supreme being of Marvel now.

Not quiet the supreme being of Marvel has always been TOAA anyway that what I refere to as the supreme being. The problem I always see between the "Kirby avatar" and Toaa is the fact that Toaa is meant to be shown and thought of both as a fictionel Character but as a Real person as well, hence Toaa cannot imo be entire fictionel because marvel choosed to make this merging by showing Toaa in that form. Therefore imo the Supreme Being in marvel Toaa (the writer if you like) would always win against Beyonder, Toaa (Shooter in that case) created Beyonder and Toaa (Steve Englehart and Tom Defalco) depowered Beyonder.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yet he still was unable to figure them out. Thus, not omniscient.

Being vastly more powerful than something =/= understanding it.
If you say so.

But I'll stick to what Marvel comics say,
and according to Marvel comics, Beyonder was Omniscient.

Do I really need to post 20 scans stating it so and Beyonder displaying it so?

Let me know.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Yes, which is a consequence of plot, which TOAA creates.
TOAA (if anything) was Jim Shooter, I think you missed that.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

No, TOAA represents all the writers and all of the company.
That's in your unsupported opinion.

In Marvel, TOAA/God is simply the writers and artists.

The Editor in-Chief is their boss.

But for the most part,
writers and artists have free rain to do what they like,
so long as they adhere to continuity, sometimes they slip up of course.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

There's an interview from Joe Casey that says Superman could beat anyone, so I guess Superman beats Beyonder if you go by interviews so much.
Irrelevant, and unrelated, and so inconsequential.

Superman never literally pumped FEAR into the most powerful entity in DC.

Beyonder did.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Beyonder was defeated -
TOAA defeated him already
since TOAA is directly responsible for everything that occurs in a Marvel comic.
Beyonder was never defeated under his PRE-Retcon power-set.

But believe what you wish.

When Jim Shooter, Editor in-Chief and Writer, (GOD!!!) left Marvel in 1987,
then Beyonder was taken advantage of and de-powered by the New boss,
(uhh, literally) Editor in-Chief Tom DeFalco made Writer Englehart retcon him.

Several people will be getting warnings.

Closed.