Matrix trumped Star Wars

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truejedi
I was rewatching the Matrix Reloaded yesterday, and the fight scene between neo and all the thugs while the keymaker is trying to escape was really incredible. ( i knew that, i had just forgotten exactly how incredible) I was also thinking, why didn't Lucas make the fight between sidious, and the three Jedi masters more like that one? It wouldn't have added a lot of stage time, because instead of Neo hitting them over and over and them getting up, when sidious hit them once with a saber, they would have been finished, it would have also made their deaths much more realistic, and made sidious appear that much more powerful, because now his feat of killing the three all at once just makes them appear that much weaker.

When Neo is leaping around the hallway, from stair case to stair case, and using the sword, that can only be described as Jedi. If he had been holding a saber, and the others had been too, it would have been the greatest fight scene in Star Wars history. I've heard that the reason for the famous Star wars "pause" at the end of fight scenes to allow one combatant to win, is because its almost impossible to coreograph an actual "loss" in a sword fight. But apparently not. You don't see one such pause in the matrix.

So in conclusion: should we have expected more from lucas than he ended up giving us? I heard a lot "it was the best they could do" comments for a few months after episode 3, but as the matrix shows, it could have been better.

any thoughts?

Lord Knightfa11
This is what i was saying.

Tangible God
In terms of combat scenes, Matrix surpasses Star Wars, at least the PT anyway as both trilogies make use of CGI and SFX. And that would have been a good fight, replace Neo with Sidious and the henchmen with the Jedi.

Blue_Hefner
Yes, the matrix has better fight scenes but the Sw movies aren't about lightgsaber duels.

Lord Knightfa11
Yes they are.

Ushgarak
Actually I think the SW duels were better- though Neo vs. Smith in the first Matrix film is the ultimate challenger to that- but Matrix did larger fights better, I would agree.

Sidi-Boy
Err... no, while SW big-scale fights aren't generally very impressive, stuff like Sidious vs. Yoda and Obi-Wan vs. Anakin simply trumps the shit out of anything Matrix has to offer. In a response to Knightfall, Sidious looked like an old man in the fight against Mace because McDiarmid IS an old man; and the CGI stuff, like the spin, were pretty cool. You saw the difference when Sidious was done using CGI and stunt doubles in his fight against Yoda- that's why is was so much faster than the Mace duel.

However, I would've done the same as NG's original vision and let doubles do the duelling, rather than mainly the actors like GL suggested. Definetly no Matrix stuff.

truejedi
you wouldn't even have the leaping around? i mean, that is what Jedi DO. Everything neo did, if he were a jedi, could have easily been explained with the force. So, don't call it matrixy stuff, call it force jumping and acrobatics. You wouldn't be interested in more of those?

Lt. Valerian
One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. In my opinion, they cannot be compared.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Lt. Valerian
One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. In my opinion, they cannot be compared. True.

But for the sake of it, the Neo vs. Smith fight in the first Matrix is IMO, the better out of any PT duel (I don't count OT, as they're a different league in their own right from the PT). And I'd still rank the Reloaded Neo vs. Smiths on par with the Duel of Fates and Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

Still, one's a sword fight, the other's hand-to-hand, too different to fairly compare, preference aside.

truejedi
I wasn't actually talking about Neo vs. the Smiths, it was Neo vs. the Henchmen, in that one they were all using weapons at one time or another. And you are right, they were punching in between sword swings, but that would still be possible of a Jedi, and would make them seem that much more dangerous.

Captain REX
While I would have preferred a flashier fight that lasted a teeny bit longer against the three Jedi that accompanied Mace, I was satisfied with the actual Sidious vs. Windu duel.

sweersa
Whats the Matrix? Hmm

truejedi
Originally posted by sweersa
Whats the Matrix? Hmm

serious question?

Sesse
Something math related?

Elite Hunter
Originally posted by Sesse
Something math related?

I F*ckin hate matrices they are so annoying.

Sidi-Boy
Errr... Tangible God, do you actually consider OT fights superior to PT fights?

Anywayz. The only stuff I've seen that RIVALS the duels in Star Wars are stuff like the final fight in Return of the King and the massive maelstorm battle at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean 3- flashy, intense, and massively thrilling large fights. Even fights like Sidious vs. Mace do the job; in the cinema, I was absolutely thrilled by the fight, as I was by almost every duel in the actual movie. Sorry, I still consider Ani vs. Obi/Sidious vs. Yoda to be the best action scene I ever saw.

sweersa
Originally posted by truejedi
serious question?

Naw :-P

Tangible God
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Errr... Tangible God, do you actually consider OT fights superior to PT fights?

Anywayz. The only stuff I've seen that RIVALS the duels in Star Wars are stuff like the final fight in Return of the King and the massive maelstorm battle at the end of Pirates of the Caribbean 3- flashy, intense, and massively thrilling large fights. Even fights like Sidious vs. Mace do the job; in the cinema, I was absolutely thrilled by the fight, as I was by almost every duel in the actual movie. Sorry, I still consider Ani vs. Obi/Sidious vs. Yoda to be the best action scene I ever saw. Never said that, said it was a different league. Flashy and fast-paced CGI-enhanced fights are cool, but there's still something about the OT duels that inspires a little more soul.

And yeah, those final sequences are awesome, but seeing as how one's an epic battle between hundreds of thousands of orcs and knights, the other an epic sea battle between pirate ships in a whirlpool, and Star Wars being one-on-one sword fights between Force-wielding Jedi... they don't really mesh in terms of similarity.

There is a difference between something as upscale as the RotK and Pirates battles, and something as down-scaled (though no less epic) as Star Wars saber duels. Duels and battles are different things.

Blue_Hefner
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I F*ckin hate matrices they are so annoying.

Tell that to your computer.

ThoraxeRMG
In my opinion, Matrix fails.
EDIT: Except Agent Smith.

Man of Christ
i was watching a show wherein it was explained that the actors who played the characters did the dueling themselves to appropriately capture the emotions involved in having to meet blades with the man you used to be able to trust your life with.

my conlcusion: yes lucas could have had the duels to be more matrix-like with stunt doubles and such but he would have run the serious risk of being unable to cpature the emotions and the fights being too robotic. so he chose emotion over stunts

Lord Knightfa11
agent smith fails because his face is only recogniseable as a gay elf....

pgdarth95
matrix was point less miffed

Lord Knightfa11
matrix was awesome.

Tangible God
Originally posted by pgdarth95
matrix was point less miffed So is Star Wars. What's your point?

pgdarth95
matrix rating 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

starwars rating 99.999

pgdarth95
very equaly matched neo rocks and darth vader rocks wats to argue
about
*raises shoulders*

pgdarth95
starwars is awesome
robot(closest thing to matrix) is awesome

Tangible God
Originally posted by pgdarth95
very equaly matched neo rocks and darth vader rocks wats to argue
about
*raises shoulders* Why'd you raise your shoulder... isn't it more appropriate to... shrug?

pgdarth95
coulnt think of the word at that moment

The Sociopath
I find comparing hand to hand combat with swordplay is a bit premature.

Jack Daniels
bruce lee would beg to differ...lol

Darth Subjekt
They're too different to really compare, as some have already pointed out. I think the Sidious vs Mace and crew fight shows how powerful Sidious is as opposed to how weak the others are, but i guess it's all based on your perception.

To me, and I'm speaking only for myself, the Ani/Ob1 and Bespin fights are the best SW has to offer, and beats out anything the Matrix brings to the table. Yes, hand-to-hand combat looks really cool if the choreography is done correctly (which i would say it was), but the way Ani and Ob1 were going at it with those sabers was crazy.

The Matrix fights were awesome, don't get me wrong, and I love the Neo/Serv fight (because it was so back and forth rather than Neo pwning), but its just a different category of combat. Plus the mechanics and physics of the Matrix fights were askew ed and different, for obvious reasons.

Jack Daniels
neo vs vader?...nah probably been done... vader stops blasts with his hand neo stops bullets with his hands....superman catches bullets...hulk just takes it and heals...neo comes back to life...vader just gets rebuilt...superman comes back to life and learns he doesnt have to die...hulk gets melted down to bone and regenerates...they all suck cause I cant do any of that...lol

Placidity
There was a moment in the fight between Kenobi and Anakin that was totally retarded.

The scene where they seem to have difficulty balancing themselves as they walk across some beams above lava. Anakin was even flailing his arms at one point to maintain balance.

What the hell was that shit sersiously? A Jedi Master should have been depicted as walking and even fighting across that thing confidently and without fear.

Also, during Order 66, alot of the Jedi Masters fell too easily, I mean waaay too easily. I mean they are supposed to have a certain level of pre-cog right? I would accept that they eventually fell, but they could've put up more of a fight.

Now don't get me started about Palpatine's fight. He was complete shit house except for that one spinning move he did to take out 3 Jedi Masters. That was crap. How the hell did they become Masters if they are fell with one freaking strike. Sure, Palpatine is powerful, but going down in one strike is pathetic.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I rule.

Tangible God
Originally posted by Placidity
There was a moment in the fight between Kenobi and Anakin that was totally retarded.

The scene where they seem to have difficulty balancing themselves as they walk across some beams above lava. Anakin was even flailing his arms at one point to maintain balance.

What the hell was that shit sersiously? A Jedi Master should have been depicted as walking and even fighting across that thing confidently and without fear.

Also, during Order 66, alot of the Jedi Masters fell too easily, I mean waaay too easily. I mean they are supposed to have a certain level of pre-cog right? I would accept that they eventually fell, but they could've put up more of a fight.

Now don't get me started about Palpatine's fight. He was complete shit house except for that one spinning move he did to take out 3 Jedi Masters. That was crap. How the hell did they become Masters if they are fell with one freaking strike. Sure, Palpatine is powerful, but going down in one strike is pathetic.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I rule. Well, try fighting to the death your best friend for like ten minutes, then go balance on a tight rope; you might not be walking too steady, even with the Force. The more retarded part of that fight was the f*cking droid that stops in midair and looks at them like "Wtf?"

The reason for the quick deaths during Order 66 was the lack of emotion or hesitation from the clones. There wasn't any neurological changes for the Jedi to pick up in time.

And the 3 masters went down a little gayly, but the point of that was to express to the audience Palpatine's secret, extreme uberness. Still, the movie should've depicted the novelization's method.

The big EH
Originally posted by truejedi
I was rewatching the Matrix Reloaded yesterday, and the fight scene between neo and all the thugs while the keymaker is trying to escape was really incredible. ( i knew that, i had just forgotten exactly how incredible) I was also thinking, why didn't Lucas make the fight between sidious, and the three Jedi masters more like that one? It wouldn't have added a lot of stage time, because instead of Neo hitting them over and over and them getting up, when sidious hit them once with a saber, they would have been finished, it would have also made their deaths much more realistic, and made sidious appear that much more powerful, because now his feat of killing the three all at once just makes them appear that much weaker.

When Neo is leaping around the hallway, from stair case to stair case, and using the sword, that can only be described as Jedi. If he had been holding a saber, and the others had been too, it would have been the greatest fight scene in Star Wars history. I've heard that the reason for the famous Star wars "pause" at the end of fight scenes to allow one combatant to win, is because its almost impossible to coreograph an actual "loss" in a sword fight. But apparently not. You don't see one such pause in the matrix.

So in conclusion: should we have expected more from lucas than he ended up giving us? I heard a lot "it was the best they could do" comments for a few months after episode 3, but as the matrix shows, it could have been better.

any thoughts? pretty much everyone i know who loved matrix 1 hates the sequels, as do alot of other people, they became more about special effects and fighting

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