Hank Henshaw vs. Silver Surfer

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Harbinger
Been done before, but with different conditions.

- Henshaw doesn't have his rings
- Fight takes place in a neutral location

Who wins?

quanchi112
Surfer wins all day.

comicfan11
I think Surfer takes it.
He could transmute Henshaw and prevent him from reconstituting himself.

starlock
Surfer for the win

llagrok
Didn't Digimark say that unless proven otherwise, High Herald+ aren't simply transmutable?

nimbus006
Without his rings Henshaw probably loses a small majority to Surfer.

Surfer 7/10.

Soljer
Originally posted by llagrok
Didn't Digimark say that unless proven otherwise, High Herald+ aren't simply transmutable?

I doubt Digi'd make a moronic, sweeping generalization like that.

llagrok
Originally posted by Soljer
I doubt Digi'd make a moronic, sweeping generalization like that.

Someone's edgy.

nimbus006
Originally posted by llagrok
Someone's edgy.

You don't know Soljer by now...

Remarkably sarcastic, and kind of a dick, but that's what we love about him. stick out tongue

nimbus006
He is correct though, assuming no high herald levelers can be transmuted is quite an unsubstantial claim.

I understand why he would think that, however, there's still no proof to verify such a statement.

llagrok
Originally posted by nimbus006
He is correct though, assuming no high herald levelers can be transmuted is quite an unsubstantial claim.

I understand why he would think that, however, there's still no proof to verify such a statement.

There's no proof that suggests they can be transmuted either, all we know is that a lot of people can "resist" transmutation. Which is why I think we shouldn't just assume that heralds with matter manipulation can transmute every Tom, Dick and Harry who's trans+

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by nimbus006
You don't know Soljer by now...

Remarkably sarcastic, and kind of a dick, but that's what we love about him. stick out tongue

Speak for yourself.

nimbus006
Originally posted by llagrok
There's no proof that suggests they can be transmuted either, all we know is that a lot of people can "resist" transmutation. Which is why I think we shouldn't just assume that heralds with matter manipulation can transmute every Tom, Dick and Harry who's trans+

Well, I do find it hard to believe that Silver Surfer could use transmutation in order to turn a top tier into a coffee table for example, but surely matter manipulation can be used against the character for other offensive purposes. For example, Surfer could transmute the armor, clothing, or weapon of a certain character to explode, encase, or even depower them.

nimbus006
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Speak for yourself.

Well, I was actually speaking for Llagrok and myself. stick out tongue

~The Wickerman~
Originally posted by nimbus006
Well, I do find it hard to believe that Silver Surfer could use transmutation in order to turn a top tier into a coffee table for example, but surely matter manipulation can be used against the character for other offensive purposes. For example, Surfer could transmute the armor, clothing, or weapon of a certain character to explode, encase, or even depower them.

I see it as "With sufficient power and proficiency in matter manipulation" you could potentially transmute anyone. Which sort of makes sense given the fact that Thanos did sort of remake everything/one so...

llagrok
Originally posted by nimbus006
Well, I do find it hard to believe that Silver Surfer could use transmutation in order to turn a top tier into a coffee table for example, but surely matter manipulation can be used against the character for other offensive purposes. For example, Surfer could transmute the armor, clothing, or weapon of a certain character to explode, encase, or even depower them.

I just don't believe that the Surfer would be able to transmute people that are trans +

Many people disagree, I don't mind smile

nimbus006
Surfer really doesn't use matter manipulation in that manner.

Transmuting someone into something else entirely would take tremendous concentration, and probably quite a bit of time (not a viable strategy against a speedster), if even possible at all. Especially, if that character is at or above his own power level (as Cyborg Supes is). Logically, it would seem much easier for Surfer to transmute an object such as Henshaw's cape, than it would be for him to manipulate Henshaw directly. However, there is the ability for Surfer to create K-Nite radiation which is not my favorite tactic, and it's not even guaranteed Surfer would have knowledge of said weakness. Nevertheless, I do believe Kryptonite negatively affects Henshaw.

Bouboumaster
Surfer 10/10

Soljer
Originally posted by llagrok
There's no proof that suggests they can be transmuted either

You're making a burden of proof fallacy. There is no evidence that Uncle Ben can be transmuted. Should we just give him the benefit of the doubt? erm.

Originally posted by nimbus006
You don't know Soljer by now...

Remarkably sarcastic, and kind of a dick, but that's what we love about him. stick out tongue

love

nimbus006
Originally posted by Soljer

love

Hardly sick stick out tongue

TricksterPriest
Henshaw has turned children's toys into kryptonian flesh and metals. Not to mention making his body mostly organic from said metals. He's even done it to apokolyptian and other materials.

Surfer is not transmuting him for the win. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to see him win a majority.

horrorwolf
Norrin takes the majority here due to overall resourcefulness and powerset.

Scoobless
Originally posted by nimbus006
He is correct though, assuming no high herald levelers can be transmuted is quite an unsubstantial claim.

I understand why he would think that, however, there's still no proof to verify such a statement.

A celestial (or something) once turned Thor into a frog just by looking at him ... I think Surfer has been on the receiving end of that sort of thing before as well.

draxx_tOfU
Originally posted by llagrok
Didn't Digimark say that unless proven otherwise, High Herald+ aren't simply transmutable?

wasn't Thor turned into a frog by Sersi?...

and Thanos into stone by Warlock?...

Avlon
Henshaw and Surfer have the tools and versatility to beat each other.

IMO Henhaw has it a bit easier but either way it could go any direction.

llagrok
Originally posted by Soljer
You're making a burden of proof fallacy. There is no evidence that Uncle Ben can be transmuted. Should we just give him the benefit of the doubt? erm.



love

That's a bad analogy, there are no one on Ben's level that can be transmuted.

Soljer
Originally posted by llagrok
That's a bad analogy, there are no one on Ben's level that can be transmuted.

You're still not amending your original fault. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Erik-Lensherr
Henshaw.

llagrok
Originally posted by Soljer
You're still not amending your original fault. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

We're going to assume that skyfathers can be knocked out by street levellers until proven otherwise?

Soljer
Originally posted by llagrok
We're going to assume that skyfathers can be knocked out by street levellers until proven otherwise?

What skyfather doesn't have a single durability feat to his name?

Please, stop acting like a moron.

Lord Feron
he isnt acting....

Galan007
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Surfer is not transmuting him for the win. Unless Henshaw is in some way 'un-transmutable', then such a method is quite plausible, imo.

----

And concerning Draxx/Scoob's question: it was Loki whom transformed Thor into a frog .

illadelph12
Hmm...

I'd take Surfer, actually. There's a few problems with the pro-Henshaw argument (though I'm a Cyborg Supes fan):

1) The substances he forms a body from don't take on special properties simply because Henshaw forms a body out of it. If he forms a physical body out of scrap metal his body is composed of scrap metal, when he formed it out of the Source Wall it was composed of Source Wall. I've yet to see Henshaw turn his body into a completely different substance other than that which he had inhabited. He changes the form but not the substance. Most of his more exotic abilities come from his inhabiting Kal's Kryptonian birthing matrix (which also gave him access to Kryptonian DNA) and later Apokoliptian Tech. There's no evidence that the materials of the Birthing matrix or Apokoliptian technology are non-transmutable simply because they are Kryptonian or Apokoliptian in nature. They are still just metals.

2) Hank is an energy being, he simply inhabits metals. Metals conduct his consciousness just as moisture conducts Iceman's. If you turned all metal in the vicinity to wood or plastic he'd have no resources to create new bodies from. Surfer can do that.

3) Hank's physical bodies are only as durable as the materials he composes them of. His body has been incinerated by the sun, explosions, etc. The latest version of Henshaw (in Sinestro Corps.) had his body near completely destroyed by the detonation of War World. Surfer has planet busting level energy output.

So, whereas I think Hank would make VERY good showings against Surfer, Surfer's versatility and ability to limit Hank's resources in a neutral environment make me give him the edge, but it's almost completely dependent on the battlefield. There are some battlefields (Cybertron, The Kyln, WarWorld, etc.) where I'd give Hank the majority since he'd have a lot of resources to work with.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by llagrok
Didn't Digimark say that unless proven otherwise, High Herald+ aren't simply transmutable?

The hell?

Well, sorta, but it wasn't a blanket statement for all characters, and I was stating an opinion, not writing it in stone.

Originally posted by Soljer
I doubt Digi'd make a moronic, sweeping generalization like that.

laughing out loud

It was mainly that the onus is proof is on the "transmutation ftw" people, because most at this level have such durability and molecular density that transmutation is far from a given. Possible, sure, but not proven by any sort of showings from people at this level. But yeah, it wasn't a generalization.

Also, I have no problem with Surfer winning. But transmutation for Surfer is something that would likely require too much concentration in the middle of a tough battle to pull off...and that's if it would work at all.

nimbus006
Originally posted by Galan007
Unless Henshaw is in some way 'un-transmutable', then such a method is quite plausible, imo.

----

And concerning Draxx/Scoob's question: it was Loki whom transformed Thor into a frog .

If it was Loki, then the means of transformation might of been mystical in nature rather than matter manipulation, correct?

nimbus006
Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

I'd take Surfer, actually. There's a few problems with the pro-Henshaw argument (though I'm a Cyborg Supes fan):

1) The substances he forms a body from don't take on special properties simply because Henshaw forms a body out of it. If he forms a physical body out of scrap metal his body is composed of scrap metal, when he formed it out of the Source Wall it was composed of Source Wall. I've yet to see Henshaw turn his body into a completely different substance other than that which he had inhabited. He changes the form but not the substance. Most of his more exotic abilities come from his inhabiting Kal's Kryptonian birthing matrix (which also gave him access to Kryptonian DNA) and later Apokoliptian Tech. There's no evidence that the materials of the Birthing matrix or Apokoliptian technology are non-transmutable simply because they are Kryptonian or Apokoliptian in nature. They are still just metals.

2) Hank is an energy being, he simply inhabits metals. Metals conduct his consciousness just as moisture conducts Iceman's. If you turned all metal in the vicinity to wood or plastic he'd have no resources to create new bodies from. Surfer can do that.

3) Hank's physical bodies are only as durable as the materials he composes them of. His body has been incinerated by the sun, explosions, etc. The latest version of Henshaw (in Sinestro Corps.) had his body near completely destroyed by the detonation of War World. Surfer has planet busting level energy output.

So, whereas I think Hank would make VERY good showings against Surfer, Surfer's versatility and ability to limit Hank's resources in a neutral environment make me give him the edge, but it's almost completely dependent on the battlefield. There are some battlefields (Cybertron, The Kyln, WarWorld, etc.) where I'd give Hank the majority since he'd have a lot of resources to work with.

Good points.

TricksterPriest
" The latest version of Henshaw (in Sinestro Corps.) had his body near completely destroyed by the detonation of War World. Surfer has planet busting level energy output."

Very very bad analogy. Warworld was a galaxy-busting explosion. And he took shots from Guardians in that arc.

Galan007
Originally posted by nimbus006
If it was Loki, then the means of transformation might of been mystical in nature rather than matter manipulation, correct? yes

horrorwolf
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Surfer is not transmuting him for the win.

Why is this the case? Is there something specific about Henshaw's matter that is beyond matter manipulation? Silver Surfer has done this fairly easily before.

Avlon
There isn't anything in Surfer that isn't transmutable either. Nor is he immune to having his power cosmic stolen/weakened, or even completely neutralized by tech. It's similar to Surfers metallic glaze being susceptable to being taken over by Henshaw.

We also have some intersting examples:

Surfer had trouble with Glads. (Who is a Marvel Superman)
Henshaw has whooped Eradicator. (Who is basically DC Surfer)
In their crossover, Henshaw pretty much laughed at the PC at surfers level.

Henshaw has turned toys into something as complex as a kryptonian brain. That's high level transmutation right there. I haven't seen the source wall transmuted by anyone on any level. Usually just having contact with the wall means that you're taken out for the count. Manipulating to any ends is very impressive.

Surfer has been taken out by a sonic missle, a brick, cyanide, electromagnetic manipulation, tech, and blunt force.

Neither character is invincible. Both a VERY versatile. Both have tools to battle with that would make a great battle.

nimbus006
Originally posted by Avlon

Neither character is invincible. Both are VERY versatile. Both have tools to battle with that would make a great battle.

thumb up

illadelph12
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
" The latest version of Henshaw (in Sinestro Corps.) had his body near completely destroyed by the detonation of War World. Surfer has planet busting level energy output."

Very very bad analogy. Warworld was a galaxy-busting explosion. And he took shots from Guardians in that arc.

Galaxy busting?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Surfer had trouble with Glads. (Who is a Marvel Superman)
When was this?

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
When was this?

When they fought and SS was assisting Ego.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
When they fought and SS was assisting Ego.
What issue was that?

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
What issue was that?

Don't remember, but the scans have been posted on these forums before (and I'm too lazy to look for them.) If you have any other battles between Glads and SS though, feel free to post them.

I'd like to see them.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
Don't remember, but the scans have been posted on these forums before (and I'm too lazy to look for them.) If you have any other battles between Glads and SS though, feel free to post them.

I'd like to see them.
The only actual fight I've ever heard of between the two occurred in a Marvel Adventures comic and isn't canon. The only thing in 616 Marvel I can think of was when an alien absorbed Gladiator's power when he was also Captain Universe, and Surfer beat him pretty decisively.

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
The only actual fight I've ever heard of between the two occurred in a Marvel Adventures comic and isn't canon. The only thing in 616 Marvel I can think of was when an alien absorbed Gladiator's power when he was also Captain Universe, and Surfer beat him pretty decisively.

I believe he overloaded the alien as a last ditch attempt. It didn't really have much to do with Gladiators powers at all.

The marvel adventures shows a possible scenario. It's by no means the most difinitive or anything, but SS certainly didn't show dominance in any way, shape, or form.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Avlon
I believe he overloaded the alien as a last ditch attempt. It didn't really have much to do with Gladiators powers at all.
Yeah he overloaded him in the end, but only after the guy started trying to absorb Surfer's powers too. And the guy tried that because Surfer started to get the better of him h2h.

Originally posted by Avlon
The marvel adventures shows a possible scenario. It's by no means the most difinitive or anything, but SS certainly didn't show dominance in any way, shape, or form.
A possible scenario sure, but then again Hulk vs Superman showed a possible scenario also(one in which Hulk's strength approached PC Supes's in a relatively short time). Unless both Glads and Surfer both managed to rack up feats putting them on par with their mainstream counterparts you can't really base off their fight.

horrorwolf
Intesting. But IMO Surfer is older, wiser, more resourceful and has a wider rage of versatile abilities.

What forms of Power Conversion Does Henshaw currently have? Last I remember Henshaw could not absorb all forms of cosmic energy radiation to use at his will...such as Self Sustenance, or amping any of other his powers and abilities at will like Surfer can.

Surfer can convert elements, matter and can also create mechanical objects at Henshaws level pretty easily. He's a pretty massive Precog and along with his Cosmic awareness, I dont really see how Henshaw can stand to him... Maybe I'm missing something, but Surfer's overall abilities seem to dwarf Cyborg Superman's in both effectiveness and range.

Has Henshaw been recently upgraded or something?

Avlon
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah he overloaded him in the end, but only after the guy started trying to absorb Surfer's powers too. And the guy tried that because Surfer started to get the better of him h2h.

It was still an entirely different fight against a completely different type of character.

Originally posted by darthgoober
A possible scenario sure, but then again Hulk vs Superman showed a possible scenario also(one in which Hulk's strength approached PC Supes's in a relatively short time). Unless both Glads and Surfer both managed to rack up feats putting them on par with their mainstream counterparts you can't really base off their fight.

In every Hulk vs Superman scenario, Supes has tried to reason with an angry Hulk, and has basically pwned him when he got tired of doing so.

It wasn't a definitive example, but it's more than we've seen of them in 616.

Nevertheless, I stand by my original outcome.

Galan007
Originally posted by illadelph12
Galaxy busting? http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/4258/gal1ge9.th.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
but then again Hulk vs Superman showed a possible scenario also(one in which Hulk's strength approached PC Supes's in a relatively short time). Hulk's strength may have rivaled PC Supes, as he was portrayed in that particular comic. As you know, PC Superman's strength level was like the sand dunes - always changing..

imo, Hulk has never came close to the power PC Superman displayed .

Ouallada
Originally posted by nimbus006
If it was Loki, then the means of transformation might of been mystical in nature rather than matter manipulation, correct?

Loki only did it when powered by Surtur's sword, so it almost definitely was mystical more than anything else.

God that frog of thunder storyline was terrible.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Avlon
There isn't anything in Surfer that isn't transmutable either. Nor is he immune to having his power cosmic stolen/weakened, or even completely neutralized by tech. It's similar to Surfers metallic glaze being susceptable to being taken over by Henshaw.

We also have some intersting examples:

Surfer had trouble with Glads. (Who is a Marvel Superman)
Henshaw has whooped Eradicator. (Who is basically DC Surfer)
In their crossover, Henshaw pretty much laughed at the PC at surfers level.

Henshaw has turned toys into something as complex as a kryptonian brain. That's high level transmutation right there. I haven't seen the source wall transmuted by anyone on any level. Usually just having contact with the wall means that you're taken out for the count. Manipulating to any ends is very impressive.

Surfer has been taken out by a sonic missle, a brick, cyanide, electromagnetic manipulation, tech, and blunt force.

Neither character is invincible. Both a VERY versatile. Both have tools to battle with that would make a great battle. Its a noncanon crossover and cant be used in these debates. You really think Eradictor's feats stand up and are comparable to Norrins?

What does the source wall feat have to do with his battle against the surfer? i could talk about Surfer using the crunch to defeat T and A but again that has nothing to do with this battle just as your feat doesnt either.

Surfer has no weaknesses while Henshaw does. Thats the difference.

Avlon
Originally posted by quanchi112
Its a noncanon crossover and cant be used in these debates. You really think Eradictor's feats stand up and are comparable to Norrins?

What does the source wall feat have to do with his battle against the surfer? i could talk about Surfer using the crunch to defeat T and A but again that has nothing to do with this battle just as your feat doesnt either.

Surfer has no weaknesses while Henshaw does. Thats the difference.

What does this have to do with the debate?

Sounds like silly nitpicking with a bit of fallacy thrown in for useless measure.

The one thing I will address is that yes...Eradicators feats compare to Surfers nicely in quality if not in quantity.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Avlon
What does this have to do with the debate?

Sounds like silly nitpicking with a bit of fallacy thrown in for useless measure.

The one thing I will address is that yes...Eradicators feats compare to Surfers nicely in quality if not in quantity.

You wouldn't know a fallacy if it kicked you in the nuts. GTFO.

Avlon
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You wouldn't know a fallacy if it kicked you in the nuts. GTFO.

And here is a shining example(LOL) of a wonderful on topic post.

How about you stop wasting my time (and the forums) and stop being a moronic hater?

An angry village idiot..like we needed another one of those.

My opinion has been stated already on the topic on hand no need to reiterate it.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Avlon
And here is a shining example(LOL) of a wonderful on topic post.

How about you stop wasting my time (and the forums) and stop being a moronic hater?

An angry village idiot..like we needed another one of those.

My opinion has been stated already on the topic on hand no need to reiterate it.

Whatever, just had to say it. Im done now. no expression

illadelph12
So it was the Warworld breach combined with the Yellow Power Battery attached to it? That makes sense. My mistake, I thought it was simply Warworld that the GLs dropped on AM's domepiece.

Avlon
Originally posted by illadelph12
So it was the Warworld breach combined with the Yellow Power Battery attached to it? That makes sense. My mistake, I thought it was simply Warworld that the GLs dropped on AM's domepiece.

The 1st time was by a 200x amped GL shot + Warworld.

The 2nd time was by the power battery + Warworld.

Both were powerful blasts.

Soljer
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You wouldn't know a fallacy if it kicked you in the nuts. GTFO.

Lulz. Hypocrite.

llagrok
Originally posted by Soljer
What skyfather doesn't have a single durability feat to his name?

Please, stop acting like a moron.

Alright alright, I am agreeing.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Avlon
What does this have to do with the debate?

Sounds like silly nitpicking with a bit of fallacy thrown in for useless measure.

The one thing I will address is that yes...Eradicators feats compare to Surfers nicely in quality if not in quantity. Exactly noncanon crossovers have nothing to do with the debate at hand and cannot be used as evidence.



Surfer has many more impressive feats than Eradictor. Manipulating the crunch to defeat T and A comes to mind.

Badabing
I don't know what the problem is with this thread but it needs to end, now. Stop flaming, bashing and name calling. If your debate fails don't resort to breaking rules.

Avlon
Originally posted by quanchi112
Surfer has many more impressive feats than Eradictor. Manipulating the crunch to defeat T and A comes to mind.

An energy manipulator redirecting energy...gee...there is a stretch...

Both have similar abilities/feats.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Avlon
An energy manipulator redirecting energy...gee...there is a stretch...

Both have similar abilities/feats. Both have similar abilities but I think Surfer has him on feats. I also think the T and A feat is very respectable.

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