Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

ok since recently i've noticed a couple of people state how wonderman could take him and how it hapend in a crap crossover, i've decided to ask everyones take
could she beat him with out BFR

Originally posted by jalek moye
ok since recently i've noticed a couple of people state how wonderman could take him and how it hapend in a crap crossover, i've decided to ask everyones take
could she beat him with out BFR

Yes. I'd gather that if she can remove his helmet, she can kill him with her tiara or sword. Or Render him imobile with her lasso. Or Command him to renounce his power or give up the gem to her. It takes a plot device power to beat a plot device character.

she is not killing him, thats for sure.

Or Juggernaut could just rip her arms out of their sockets while she's trying to wrestle his helmet from him.

I cant see her beating him.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Yes. I'd gather that if she can remove his helmet, she can kill him with her tiara or sword. Or Render him imobile with her lasso. Or Command him to renounce his power or give up the gem to her. It takes a plot device power to beat a plot device character. What makes you believe she could cut him with her tiara or sword?

Originally posted by tkitna
Or Juggernaut could just rip her arms out of their sockets while she's trying to wrestle his helmet from him.

I cant see her beating him.
He's not that strong. He's not out muscling her. Is he catching her? Wrestle helmet from him? How about she just knocks it off?

Originally posted by fangirl101
Yes. I'd gather that if she can remove his helmet, she can kill him with her tiara or sword. Or Render him imobile with her lasso. Or Command him to renounce his power or give up the gem to her. It takes a plot device power to beat a plot device character.
his skin is impenetrable

Originally posted by fangirl101
He's not that strong. He's not out muscling her. Is he catching her? Wrestle helmet from him? How about she just knocks it off?
he has limitless strength and is easily as strong as wwhulk

Originally posted by fangirl101
He's not that strong. He's not out muscling her. Is he catching her? Wrestle helmet from him? How about she just knocks it off?

Yeah, peoples had great success in just casually knocking his helmet off. The guys physically impossible to beat and if theirs one character that I think the lasso would be useless against, its Juggernaut.

Originally posted by fangirl101
He's not that strong. He's not out muscling her. Is he catching her? Wrestle helmet from him? How about she just knocks it off? I don't think I've ever seen a limit to his strength.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
I don't think I've ever seen a limit to his strength.

WW str feats >>> Juggys

Wonder Woman out muscle the Juggernaut.

The guy has stalemated or bested the Hulk, and Thor in physical matches. I don't think Wonder Woman is out muscling Juggernaut.

As for her cutting the Juggernaut's head off. It is true Magical items can and have bypassed Juggernaut's mystical enhancement before, but those only resulted in minor wounds or only minor things. I don't think Wonder Woman cut off Cain's head.

And even the minor wounds that the sword or tiara would inflict would heal up as he has a massive healing factor.


As to the lasso. As someone once before plot device. Cain is likely to pull a Slade as anything else.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
WW str feats >>> Juggys

doesnt matter jugss has limitless stregnth. and he doesnt normally lfit things that way he doesnt have better ones.

He's fed as much stregnth is needed in the encounter by the gem

Originally posted by Newjak Wonder Woman out muscle the Juggernaut.The guy has stalemated or bested the Hulk, and Thor in physical matches. I don't think Wonder Woman is out muscling Juggernaut.As for her cutting the Juggernaut's head off. It is true Magical items can and have bypassed Juggernaut's mystical enhancement before, but those only resulted from minor wounds or only minor things. I don't think Wonder Woman cut off Cain's head.And even the minor wounds that the sword or tiara would inflict would heal up as he has a massive healing factor.As to the lasso. As someone once before plot device. Cain is likely to pull a Slade as anything else. UM no. Wonder Woman is stronger than the Juggernaut by strength feats. Juggy wins stuff due to his durability. wondy will realize she can't punch him to death and then go for his helmet like she did in the cross over. And that character is canon to both marvel and DC. access I mean. Wonder Woman's Tiara beheads Gods. So you mean Juggy>>God?_ And Slade knows he is a comic character, which is why the lasso didn't work on him. Cain knows he is a comic character?

Originally posted by fangirl101
UM no. Wonder Woman is stronger than the Juggernaut by strength feats. Juggy wins stuff due to his durability. wondy will realize she can't punch him to death and then go for his helmet like she did in the cross over. And that character is canon to both marvel and DC. access I mean. Wonder Woman's Tiara beheads Gods. So you mean Juggy>>God?_ And Slade knows he is a comic character, which is why the lasso didn't work on him. Cain knows he is a comic character? Sorry did I not say it clearly.


Stalemated or overpowered the Hulk and Thos in bouts of physical strength!

Now yes in general Jugg's doesn't get lifting feats but those guy's do and anyone that can stalemate or best them is not being out muscled by WW.

It's like Darksied. He doesn't get very many lifting feats but he is still much storng than a lot of people physically that do.

Considering Cain has taken Godforce Blast from Thor, Survived being put into oblivion by Eternity. Yes I have my doubts that the Tiara would behead Cain.

And like I said Plot Device. Cain has over come many a magical attacks against persona. He is a plot device character much like Slade is. It would not surprise me if WW lassoed him and it fell around his feet like it did Slade.

Originally posted by Newjak
Sorry did I not say it clearly.


Stalemated or overpowered the Hulk and Thos in bouts of physical strength!

Now yes in general Jugg's doesn't get lifting feats but those guy's do and anyone that can stalemate or best them is not being out muscled by WW.

It's like Darksied. He doesn't get very many lifting feats but he is still much storng than a lot of people physically that do.

Considering Cain has taken Godforce Blast from Thor, Survived being put into oblivion by Eternity. Yes I have my doubts that the Tiara would behead Cain.

And like I said Plot Device. Cain has over come many a magical attacks against persona. He is a plot device character much like Slade is. It would not surprise me if WW lassoed him and it fell around his feet like it did Slade.
Nah. The lasso can over come beings who have had ultimate power. And Cain can take the Godforce blast and that is cute, but can't take Shatter Star's sword? I'm sure Wondy's tiara can do more than that sword. And I never said Wondy was out muscling cain. But he isn't out muscling her.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And Cain can take the Godforce blast and that is cute, but can't take Shatter Star's sword? We've been over this before.

Cain's specific durability was able to be bypassed by Shatter Star's sword because it came from a different dimension, and this somehow became a PIS weakness for Cain.

It's never been shown again, to my knowledge, and it's really a fruitless point as Wonder Woman's weapons do not come from Mojo's world.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Nah. The lasso can over come beings who have had ultimate power. And Cain can take the Godforce blast and that is cute, but can't take Shatter Star's sword? I'm sure Wondy's tiara can do more than that sword. And I never said Wondy was out muscling cain. But he isn't out muscling her.
he will out muscle her he cnt pretty much outmuscle anyone limitless stregtnth

magical swords cuase minor injuries that seal right back up plus the scar arnt even gonna put him do if they do major injury he doesnt need his vital organs

Originally posted by jalek moye
he will out muscle her he cnt pretty much outmuscle anyone limitless stregtnth

magical swords cuase minor injuries that seal right back up plus the scar arnt even gonna put him do if they do major injury he doesnt need his vital organs

He doesn't have ****ing limitless strength. His strength limit isn't known. Niether is hers. He wont' out muscle her anyway because she could stand still and out maneuver him. She did the same to power girl who is far faster than cain.

What makes me wonder on those boards:

1) The high feats in DC don't matter in discussions. Any statement like unlimited str (without feats proving it) > DC str feats. Same is true for infinity, cosmics or battles.

2) DC chars are considered powerless if they don't have enough feats proving the contrary, it doesn't matter how far they are placed in the DC hierarchy. Marvel chars without feats are still considered infinite powerful, hyperbole or bragging is enough.

3) Low feats are an legal way to prove that an DC char would loose, while high feats are ignored because of the low feats. The low feats of Marvel chars are considered PIS and completly ignored, only high feats and assumptions, hyperbole are enough to prove the infinite power of an Marvel char (even if he lack the feats).

4) The MARVEL rating system (skyfather, herald etc) is forced upon DC chars even though those chars have feats beyond some of those levels. A DC char who has an similar counterpart in Marvel is autoplaced in the level of the Marvel char, all his feats don't matter then....

It's funny, but pretty onesided, at least that's my impression

WW still ftw, better fighter, stronger, faster an better looking.

Juggernaut is ass.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/UXM_102_14.jpg

Originally posted by fangirl101
He doesn't have ****ing limitless strength. His strength limit isn't known. Niether is hers. He wont' out muscle her anyway because she could stand still and out maneuver him. She did the same to power girl who is far faster than cain.
he has limitless stregnth umm i forget his name but the guy who made the gem feeds him the strgnth when its needed

its debatable but it was hinted at when he became fullky powered again

Originally posted by fangirl101
Nah. The lasso can over come beings who have had ultimate power. And Cain can take the Godforce blast and that is cute, but can't take Shatter Star's sword? I'm sure Wondy's tiara can do more than that sword. And I never said Wondy was out muscling cain. But he isn't out muscling her. Yet Slade can get out of it.

He must be the Ultimate Power ever

You mean the one where he got his eye cut and healed it in a panel.

Good choice to go with. I mean you want to prove he can be beheaded so take a feat where he isn't and the wound was once again only minor.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yet Slade can get out of it.

He must be the Ultimate Power ever

You mean the one where he got his eye cut and healed it in a panel.

Good choice to go with. I mean you want to prove he can be beheaded so take a feat where he isn't and the wound was once again only minor.

Did Shatter star have the strength to push his sword all the way thru juggs? Slade knows he is a comic character, that is why the lasso didn't work.

Juggernaut for the win.
It would most likely be a stalemate if Cain was facing off against someone with WW's versatility, obvious speed and flight advantages, but her Amazonian heritage would demand a fight and I can't see her putting Juggernaut down.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Did Shatter star have the strength to push his sword all the way thru juggs? Slade knows he is a comic character, that is why the lasso didn't work. Your point. He had a weapon that would bypass some of Jugg's enchantments and considering some of the things that guy has cut through. The fact he only poked out Cain's eye is a pretty good indicator that even with magical weapons Cain still maintains a large amount of durability against attacks.

Or should I mention the Godforce blast and how if what you say is true Cain should have had a hole through his body. He didn't and that attack is a highly magical powerful attack.

And I think you are missing the point. The guy used a plot device situation to get out of the lasso. Cain is a plot device incarnate. I would not doubt that he could get out of the Lasso in some like how Slade managed to get out of it.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
What makes me wonder on those boards:

1) The high feats in DC don't matter in discussions. Any statement like unlimited str (without feats proving it) > DC str feats. Same is true for infinity, cosmics or battles.

2) DC chars are considered powerless if they don't have enough feats proving the contrary, it doesn't matter how far they are placed in the DC hierarchy. Marvel chars without feats are still considered infinite powerful, hyperbole or bragging is enough.

3) Low feats are an legal way to prove that an DC char would loose, while high feats are ignored because of the low feats. The low feats of Marvel chars are considered PIS and completly ignored, only high feats and assumptions, hyperbole are enough to prove the infinite power of an Marvel char (even if he lack the feats).

4) The MARVEL rating system (skyfather, herald etc) is forced upon DC chars even though those chars have feats beyond some of those levels. A DC char who has an similar counterpart in Marvel is autoplaced in the level of the Marvel char, all his feats don't matter then....

It's funny, but pretty onesided, at least that's my impression


Please. If I have to hear about another DC character speedblitzing somebody, i'm gonna puke. To me its almost as though Flash, WW, Superman, GL, and even Batman at times, shouldnt even be mentioned in character battles due to the fact that they should never lose. Its rediculious. Last I heard, Aquaman picked up a corner of a city or something stupid like that. Hell, whats next, the Wonder Twins taking over the universe?

Alright, let's not be biased here.
No sexism or favoritism.

WW wins 8/10.

Originally posted by Newjak
Your point. He had a weapon that would bypass some of Jugg's enchantments and considering some of the things that guy has cut through. The fact he only poked out Cain's eye is a pretty good indicator that even with magical weapons Cain still maintains a large amount of durability against attacks.

Or should I mention the Godforce blast and how if what you say is true Cain should have had a hole through his body. He didn't and that attack is a highly magical powerful attack.

And I think you are missing the point. The guy used a plot device situation to get out of the lasso. Cain is a plot device incarnate. I would not doubt that he could get out of the Lasso in some like how Slade managed to get out of it.

What the HELL? Cain has CERTAIN plot device character aspects. But knowing he is a comic character to overide an enchatment that some cosmics can't even over ride is NOT something that is comparable to Cain. If Cain is tied up in the lasso, he WON"T BE MOVING. Either because he can't break the lasso and would be immobile, or because His will will be gone. And Shatter Star's sword is in no way comparible to a magical tiara forged by the God Hephestius. Nor is his strength or SKILL even close to Diana's. The very fact that he was able to pierce Juggy's eye should indicate that a stronger person, with a better magical weapon would do BETTER!!

Originally posted by tkitna
Please. If I have to hear about another DC character speedblitzing somebody, i'm gonna puke. To me its almost as though Flash, WW, Superman, GL, and even Batman at times, shouldnt even be mentioned in character battles due to the fact that they should never lose. Its rediculious. Last I heard, Aquaman picked up a corner of a city or something stupid like that. Hell, whats next, the Wonder Twins taking over the universe?

The Wonder Twins are part of a council of Elementals that do run an empire. They were kidnapped in some conspiracy to over throw thier empire. One can turn into any animal, and one can turn into any kind of storm, atmosphere etc.

Juggernaut gives Wonder Woman the same treatment he gave Thunderstrike.

What if Juggernaut were moving already while Diana lassoed him? Wonder how that would play out? http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/confused1.gif

She'd get dragged around since he's unstoppable and her lasso is unbreakable.

Originally posted by fangirl101
What the HELL? Cain has CERTAIN plot device character aspects. But knowing he is a comic character to overide an enchatment that some cosmics can't even over ride is NOT something that is comparable to Cain. If Cain is tied up in the lasso, he WON"T BE MOVING. Either because he can't break the lasso and would be immobile, or because His will will be gone. And Shatter Star's sword is in no way comparible to a magical tiara forged by the God Hephestius. Nor is his strength or SKILL even close to Diana's. The very fact that he was able to pierce Juggy's eye should indicate that a stronger person, with a better magical weapon would do BETTER!! Really cause Cain plot device power happens to be that he is unstoppable. I could see Cain literally keep moving if he was lassoed. Losing his will dear do you really wanna talk about Cain's will power ability to overcome attacks against it.


Like I said like Slade the Juggernaut is a plot device. Simply cause Slade used one way to overcome the lasso doesn't mean Juggernaut would have to use the same one. Like I said above the guy is unstoppable. He is likely to keep walking through the thing then be stopped dead in his tracks.

Um stronger people with better magical weapons????? I do seem to recall a certain person fitting that description. Oh yeah Thor fits that thing perfectly and his weapon couldn't hurt Cain even when using it's magical based attacks.

There wasn't a hole in Cain's body and Thor is just as strong WW and with a more powerful magical weapon then her sword.


But as to the lasso and being cut. I don't really see the need to argue with you more about it. I mean we're talking about a guy who simply did not die from an attack that stripped him to his bones. Why cause Cain refused to die.

I really do not think I need to explain to the plot device nature of the Juggernaut any further than that

WW would not stop Cain in his tracks nor would she behead him. Better have tried and failed.

Originally posted by jalek moye
he has limitless stregnth umm i forget his name but the guy who made the gem feeds him the strgnth when its needed

its debatable but it was hinted at when he became fullky powered again

You don't know who made "cytorrak's gem" but you made a topic about Juggernaut

*eyetwitch*

Marvel says Juggernaut has unlimited potential. That's good enough for me.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Marvel says Juggernaut has unlimited potential. That's good enough for me.

Unlimited str, Unlimited potential unstoppable.

So Juggy could push an Celestial or Galactus and they could not stopp him with their Strength? I mean, Juggys strength is limitless, they could try to stop him with their hands and he would keep on moving, pushing them, they can limitless strength, but juggy is unstoppable right?

You could say the same for the Hulk. Fans go on and on about how the Hulk can have unlimited strength. Does that mean he can be stronger than Galactus or a Celestial? Unlimited strength from magic seems more feasible than unlimited strength through rage. There's no such thing as unlimited rage.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Unlimited str, Unlimited potential unstoppable.

So Juggy could push an Celestial or Galactus and they could not stopp him with their Strength? I mean, Juggys strength is limitless, they could try to stop him with their hands and he would keep on moving, pushing them, they can limitless strength, but juggy is unstoppable right?



That question probably doesn't matter much in this particular case since a Celestial or Galactus could stop WW in the same situation.

After seeing the sorts of god-level attacks Juggy has survived I just don't think the tiara, sword, or lasso are going to do much at all to Juggernaut, but of course nobody can say for sure one way or the other.

IMO WW's only chance is BFR removal or stalemate since she's too fast for Cain.

Pretty sure Juggernaut would win this unless there is bfr.

WW is NOT stopping cain with that lasso period. Juggs is on par with hulk strength wise and is off the scale durability wise. She is not evn hurting him. Juggernaut has taken the Godblast to no effect, no way wondy can hurt him. Not to mention he never tires. She loses as she will tire and juggs will capitalize and beat her to death.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
WW is NOT stopping cain with that lasso period. Juggs is on par with hulk strength wise and is off the scale durability wise. She is not evn hurting him. Juggernaut has taken the Godblast to no effect, no way wondy can hurt him. Not to mention he never tires. She loses as she will tire and juggs will capitalize and beat her to death.

Cain is NOT winning this fight, period. WW is on par with CM and Superman strength wise, has off the scale durability and incredible fighting skills. Juggs won't even hurt her. She wins like she did in the crossover, this fight was pretty accurate. First he removes his helmet then she KOs him.

Juggernaut farts and makes Wonder Woman explode.

hahaha stole that from some guy in the hypothetical thread. damn i am easily amused.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Cain is NOT winning this fight, period. WW is on par with CM and Superman strength wise, has off the scale durability and incredible fighting skills. Juggs won't even hurt her. She wins like she did in the crossover, this fight was pretty accurate. First he removes his helmet then she KOs him.



Can you explain how wonderwoman will hurt cain? Can u further explain why cain CANT hurt her? HE is on her level strengthwise and is by far her superior durability and stamina wise. Her fighting skills wont count for anything if she cant hurt him.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Can you explain how wonderwoman will hurt cain? Can u further explain why cain CANT hurt her? HE is on her level strengthwise and is by far her superior durability and stamina wise. Her fighting skills wont count for anything if she cant hurt him.

Remove his helmet. Hurting him? With her fists, her sword, tiara, whatever suits her better. Why he can't hurt her? Because he is to clumsy, to slow and not strong enough. Juggs on WW level of strength? Prove it, show me some str feats of his, I will go then to the WW respect thread and i will look for str feats of her .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Remove his helmet. Hurting him? With her fists, her sword, tiara, whatever suits her better. Why he can't hurt her? Because he is to clumsy, to slow and not strong enough. Juggs on WW level of strength? Prove it, show me some str feats of his, I will go then to the WW respect thread and i will look for str feats of her .

How is removing jugs helmet going 2 hurt him. What part of absolutely Invulnerable doyou NOT understand? Also does she get her sword in this thread? Evn so it would not do anything. Jugs has gone toe to toe strengthwise with WWH and has overwhelmed thor physically. He is certainly strong enough to hurt her, saying he is not is ridiculous. Wonderwoman also does NOT have the speed feats in DIRECT PHYSICAL COMBAT with another being to give basis for a speedblitz. Jugs can hit her, is strong enough to hurt her and is far more durable. She cant hurt him period. He also does not tire and so will take her down when she wears herself out in her futile efforts to hurt him

Hahaha

"Why he can't hurt her? Because he is to clumsy, to slow and not strong enough."

Hey, I'm not sure who would win, but saying Juggs isnt STRONG enough to hurt WW is total BS.

Can someone please tell me what crossover WW fought Juggs? I have almost every Marvel/DC crossover and have never heard of this one until 2008. What's the name of it?

P.S. Juggs would beat her to death and bury her in the woods somewhere. Cains a sick sick bastard.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Can someone please tell me what crossover WW fought Juggs? I have almost every Marvel/DC crossover and have never heard of this one until 2008. What's the name of it?

P.S. Juggs would beat her to death and bury her in the woods somewhere. Cains a sick sick bastard.

Unlimited Access #1 (I think this was the 2nd Access crossover series). It wasn't very good PIS-wise, and a perfect example of why crossover fights aren't considered canon.

Originally posted by ~The Wickerman~
You don't know who made "cytorrak's gem" but you made a topic about Juggernaut

*eyetwitch*
i actually knew who it was but couldnt spell so im just like whatever

There is nothing physically that Wonderwoman is capable of doing to Juggeranut that is able to do any harm to Kain. Juggernaut's forcefield is also highly resistant to magic attacks. The only known weakness he has is to mental attacks....and his helmet assists there.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Remove his helmet. Hurting him? With her fists, her sword, tiara, whatever suits her better. Why he can't hurt her? Because he is to clumsy, to slow and not strong enough. Juggs on WW level of strength? Prove it, show me some str feats of his, I will go then to the WW respect thread and i will look for str feats of her . [/QUOTE

once again he doesnt lift things, his feats are by overwhelming people that have stregth feats that are just as good as her.

or are you saying that wwhulk and thor are too weak to hurt wonderwoman

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
What makes me wonder on those boards:

1) The high feats in DC don't matter in discussions. Any statement like unlimited str (without feats proving it) > DC str feats. Same is true for infinity, cosmics or battles.

2) DC chars are considered powerless if they don't have enough feats proving the contrary, it doesn't matter how far they are placed in the DC hierarchy. Marvel chars without feats are still considered infinite powerful, hyperbole or bragging is enough.

3) Low feats are an legal way to prove that an DC char would loose, while high feats are ignored because of the low feats. The low feats of Marvel chars are considered PIS and completly ignored, only high feats and assumptions, hyperbole are enough to prove the infinite power of an Marvel char (even if he lack the feats).

4) The MARVEL rating system (skyfather, herald etc) is forced upon DC chars even though those chars have feats beyond some of those levels. A DC char who has an similar counterpart in Marvel is autoplaced in the level of the Marvel char, all his feats don't matter then....

It's funny, but pretty onesided, at least that's my impression

WW still ftw, better fighter, stronger, faster an better looking. You'll get used to it.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Remove his helmet. Hurting him? With her fists, her sword, tiara, whatever suits her better. Why he can't hurt her? Because he is to clumsy, to slow and not strong enough. Juggs on WW level of strength? Prove it, show me some str feats of his, I will go then to the WW respect thread and i will look for str feats of her . He completely overwhelmed WWH?

Got scans?

I could use them in another thread...

Originally posted by ultimatethor
. What part of absolutely Invulnerable doyou NOT understand?

He was defeated physically, even stopped, by War Hulk or the Champion of the Universe for example .

The crossover though not official was quite accurate in showing how ww would defeat juggs, imho .

Originally posted by tkitna
Please. If I have to hear about another DC character speedblitzing somebody, i'm gonna puke. To me its almost as though Flash, WW, Superman, GL, and even Batman at times, shouldnt even be mentioned in character battles due to the fact that they should never lose. Its rediculious. Last I heard, Aquaman picked up a corner of a city or something stupid like that. Hell, whats next, the Wonder Twins taking over the universe? Not only that, but when Aquaman lifted it, it was underwater, making it all exponentially heavier due to the buildings and stuff being filled with water- not to mention how much water he would have to disperse to accomplish the task.

Originally posted by Juntai
He completely overwhelmed WWH?

Got scans?

I could use them in another thread...



well he stalmated wwhulk. and wwhulk couldnt stop him using stregnth only slow him down

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
He was defeated physically, even stopped, by War Hulk or the Champion of the Universe for example .

The crossover though not official was quite accurate in showing how ww would defeat juggs, imho .
is war hulk the same as wwhulk or different(sorry i didnt start reading hulk till planet hulk arc)

Originally posted by jalek moye
is war hulk the same as wwhulk or different(sorry i didnt start reading hulk till planet hulk arc)

No, War Hulk is an Horseman of Apoc, he is > WWH and World Breaker IMHO.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No, War Hulk is an Horseman of Apoc, he is > WWH and World Breaker IMHO.
hmm

i dont think wonderwoman could do it tho
by do it i mean stop him

WWH never was overwhelmed by jugs but he was stalemated. And WH is less than Worldbreaker hulk

Originally posted by jalek moye
he has limitless strength and is easily as strong as wwhulk

His limits aren't exactly known. But his strength is not limitless since 8th day and Trion are stronger.

Originally posted by h1a8
His limits aren't exactly known. But his strength is not limitless since 8th day and Trion are stronger.
arnt those types of juggernaut tho

I wanna give this a stalemate since Juggs is not hitting someone who has FTL reflexes. She should see him as a statue. WW is not hurting Juggs with fists and kicks. Juggs has an amazing healing factor even if he is cut somehow. The only way possible I see WW winning is if she somehow cuts his brain (rendering him unconscience), which is unlikely or lassos him to make him renounce his power (or give her the gem). If those won't work then this is a stalemate.

But disregarding the OP, WW wins by bfr.

Originally posted by basilisk
Unlimited Access #1 (I think this was the 2nd Access crossover series). It wasn't very good PIS-wise, and a perfect example of why crossover fights aren't considered canon.


Thank you for the info

Juggernaut wins. WW can do nil to him physically.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Juggernaut wins. WW can do nil to him physically.

Except beat him with one of her plot device weapons.

That's not physically.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
That's not physically.

You gave him a win based solely off of the fact that you think she can't beat him physically. He's been hurt by physical means before. But that doesn't matter, you gave him a win based off of that. I merely gave options as to why she would win. Especially since he's a slow lumbering non trained brute who happens to have fist as big as cars. She happens to be uber durable to BLUNT force trauma. I can't see him getting any wins if she doesn't want him to.

Originally posted by fangirl101
You gave him a win based solely off of the fact that you think she can't beat him physically. He's been hurt by physical means before. But that doesn't matter, you gave him a win based off of that. I merely gave options as to why she would win. Especially since he's a slow lumbering non trained brute who happens to have fist as big as cars. She happens to be uber durable to BLUNT force trauma. I can't see him getting any wins if she doesn't want him to. you think Juggz could NVR get a win if WW doesn't want him to?!!

Originally posted by Starscream M
you think Juggz could NVR get a win if WW doesn't want him to?!!

I do think so. Because she can fly, She's far faster, and she could very well just block his every punch or cover herself in her field. Hers is stronger than his is. Plus she does have access to an insane amount of Godly powers when she prays. She also has that lasso. She can also chuck him into outer space. And let's not forget that she can enter the speed force. How about a speed force dump for the win.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Remove his helmet. Hurting him? With her fists, her sword, tiara, whatever suits her better. Why he can't hurt her? Because he is to clumsy, to slow and not strong enough. Juggs on WW level of strength? Prove it, show me some str feats of his, I will go then to the WW respect thread and i will look for str feats of her .

He did beat the Professor Hulk, who had Savage Hulk's physical abilities into unconsciousness. There's a difference between being indestructible and having sufficient strength to put Hulk into a hold that he can't break.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
He was defeated physically, even stopped, by War Hulk or the Champion of the Universe for example .

The crossover though not official was quite accurate in showing how ww would defeat juggs, imho .

War never actually damaged Cain though. He said he was going to, but then again the hammer supreme failed in that along with Skurge's axe.

I wasn't aware Cain fought Champion in cannon though. That Marvel adventure's fight obviously can't be it because that wasn't the Champion of the Universe he fought. That was some loser named Champion who wielded the gem of fighting skills on his brow. Note what happened when Hulk wielded the gem after Bruce snatched it from a Champion who was suddenly unable to fight effectively.

I'm going with stalemate however. Diana has proven to me at least to be near enough Superman/CM in speed that she has little to fear from Juggernaut besides a thunderclap, groundslam, or lucky punch. The downside is that she does tire while Cain won't. And while he's no where near the fighter WW is he did have to train some with the X-Men and Excaliber. While he didn't do so hot skill-wise against WWH, it's understandable considering WWH really went back to Smash Mode once back on Earth. Aside from the sidestep to BFR Cain I don't know if he's ever done anything worthy of his acclaimed fighting skills that he hasn't done before being booted off-planet.

Originally posted by fangirl101
He's been hurt by physical means before.

When?




He was a soldier in the Korean war and an adventure prior to becoming the Juggernaut. Saying he's untrained is, to say the least, completely wrong.




WW simply has no abilities in her repertoire that would do anything more than annoy the Juggernaut.

The Champion Fight isn't Cannon.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
When?




He was a soldier in the Korean war and an adventure prior to becoming the Juggernaut. Saying he's untrained is, to say the least, completely wrong.




WW simply has no abilities in her repertoire that would do anything more than annoy the Juggernaut.

BFR, GODWAVE, LASSO, SPEED. Enough to win any day against him. Tiara likely could blind him for a sustained period of time.

Originally posted by fangirl101
BFR, GODWAVE, LASSO, SPEED. Enough to win any day against him. Tiara likely could blind him for a sustained period of time. BFR isn't allowed.

She doesn't always have access to the Godwave or enough of it to say she would hurt Cain with it.

Lasso plot device power it is is not guaranteed to work against another plot device character.

What good is speed gonna do when she can not harm him?

Juggernaut has taken Thors GF blast and was completely unharmed. He took Herald level cosmic blasts and they were bouncing off him. Being that BFR isn't allowed, I highly doubt anything else you listed would be enough to get Cains attention.

Yeah, its questionable whether the Godwave would even do the trick.

This battle is almost who's magic is better. Nobody can really say.

Originally posted by Newjak
BFR isn't allowed.

She doesn't always have access to the Godwave or enough of it to say she would hurt Cain with it.

Lasso plot device power it is is not guaranteed to work against another plot device character.

What good is speed gonna do when she can not harm him?

Render Him Immobile like the New warriors did. Lasso May not work in binding his will, but really, he's a brute, it likely would. She could always just tie him up in the lasso. He'd do what then in an amazonian binding knot?

Originally posted by fangirl101
He'd do what then in an amazonian binding knot?

Tell her "yuir mouth shur lewks mighty purdy" dur

bondage ftw

Originally posted by fangirl101
Render Him Immobile like the New warriors did. Lasso May not work in binding his will, but really, he's a brute, it likely would. She could always just tie him up in the lasso. He'd do what then in an amazonian binding knot? Yup cause that worked so well against Doomsday and he was just a Brute

Go over to the Konvikt vs. Juggernaut thread and see how well Wonder Woman deals with brutes.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yup cause that worked so well against Doomsday and he was just a Brute

DD is fast. Juggs is a statue to WW.

Originally posted by h1a8
DD is fast. Juggs is a statue to WW.
one that she cant break she'll tired from dodging and get wrecked

and all her weapons wont do enough to put him down.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Penge-lZPaY/RwJ54SC03lI/AAAAAAAABTM/6_FWHjQ3pdE/juggernaut.jpg

Originally posted by fangirl101
He doesn't have ****ing limitless strength. His strength limit isn't known. Niether is hers. He wont' out muscle her anyway because she could stand still and out maneuver him. She did the same to power girl who is far faster than cain.





Let's just put it this way in reference to their strength. On numerous occasions we've seen Wonder Woman struggle/or fail to lift or stop something. The same cannot be said for Juggernaut.

Juggernaut for the KO. Wonder Woman try as she might can't harm Cain.

Juggernaut wins. Stronger, more durable, and UNSTOPPABLE!!!!

Originally posted by The Illuminati Let's just put it this way in reference to their strength. On numerous occasions we've seen Wonder Woman struggle/or fail to lift or stop something. The same cannot be said for Juggernaut.Juggernaut for the KO. Wonder Woman try as she might can't harm Cain. What the hell. Wonder Woman struggled to Hold onto the Spectre who was said to house the weight of the conciess of Eternity. Juggernaut couldn't beat the hulk in a test of strength. He has his limits and he certainly isn't as strong as Wondy or Hulk or Superman.

Originally posted by fangirl101
What the hell. Wonder Woman struggled to Hold onto the Spectre who was said to house the weight of the conciess of Eternity. Juggernaut couldn't beat the hulk in a test of strength. He has his limits and he certainly isn't as strong as Wondy or Hulk or Superman.


Is it true WW held the specter with her lasso??

Originally posted by fangirl101
What the hell. Wonder Woman struggled to Hold onto the Spectre who was said to house the weight of the conciess of Eternity. Juggernaut couldn't beat the hulk in a test of strength. He has his limits and he certainly isn't as strong as Wondy or Hulk or Superman.
actually he was beating hulk in a test of stregnth it was just slowy

Originally posted by jalek moye
actually he was beating hulk in a test of stregnth it was just slowy

Can you prove that he was beating the Hulk in their test of strength? Scans please because what you are saying wasn't shown in any of the WWHulk comics I saw.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Can you prove that he was beating the Hulk in their test of strength? Scans please because what you are saying wasn't shown in any of the WWHulk comics I saw.

WWH was being pushed back, then he tripped Juggs.

Maybe that's what he's talking about

Originally posted by Mindset
WWH was being pushed back, then he tripped Juggs.

Maybe that's what he's talking about
yea becaus ethat what i think fangirl was refering too

Originally posted by Mindset
WWH was being pushed back, then he tripped Juggs.

Maybe that's what he's talking about

You're somewhat right, initially Juggernaut was pushing the Hulk back, but was slowed to a full stop from what I saw. Juggernaut stated that they had done this dance before and that he had won, the Hulk then said that things would be different this time because he had changed. He then told Cain that he was supposed to be unstoppable, slapped him on the back and sent him on his way into a lake.

People on this forum continue to state things that did not happen

1. King Hulk won their fight via bfr.

2. No one knows what the outcome of the battle would have been if the Juggernaut and King Hulk drew out their fight.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
You're somewhat right, initially Juggernaut was pushing the Hulk back, but was slowed to a full stop from what I saw. Juggernaut stated that they had done this dance before and that he had won, the Hulk then said that things would be different this time because he had changed. He then told Cain that he was supposed to be unstoppable, slapped him on the back and sent him on his way into a lake.

People on this forum continue to state things that did not happen

1. King Hulk won their fight via bfr.

2. No one knows what the outcome of the battle would have been if the Juggernaut and King Hulk drew out their fight.
Nope, he never stopped him.

They were trading blows, then they locked arms and Juggs started slowly pushing Hulk back. Then after Juggs was distracted by Xavier he was bfr by Hulk.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0023-24.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0027.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0028.jpg

Originally posted by Mindset
Nope, he never stopped him.

They were trading blows, then they locked arms and Juggs started slowly pushing Hulk back. Then after Juggs was distracted by Xavier he was bfr by Hulk.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0023-24.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0027.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0028.jpg

Why then was it stated that he did stop him? Why did Xavier state that they were undermining the mansion? I was under the impression that since the Juggernaut's forward momentum was halted that the enchantment began to point downwards. War Hulk stopped Juggernaut as well, and he was not as strong as King Hulk... why do I say this? It took War Hulk lots of time to slow Juggernaut, but King Hulk slowed him up instantly.


Also Juggernaut would beat the hell out of Diana if they stood toe to toe, as she does not have the power to hurt him.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Why then was it stated that he did stop him? Why did Xavier state that they were undermining the mansion? I was under the impression that since the Juggernaut's forward momentum was halted that the enchantment began to point downwards. War Hulk stopped Juggernaut as well, and he was not as strong as King Hulk... why do I say this? It took War Hulk lots of time to slow Juggernaut, but King Hulk slowed him up instantly.

It was never stated that he was stopped. They were fighting and locked arms at a stand still. Both of them pushing on each other cause pressure breaking the ground apart, then the art indicates that Juggernaut started pushing Hulk back followed by the BFR.

^What he said.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It was never stated that he was stopped. They were fighting and locked arms at a stand still. Both of them pushing on each other cause pressure breaking the ground apart, then the art indicates that Juggernaut started pushing Hulk back followed by the BFR.

I fail to see the arts indications of Juggernaut pushing the Hulk back. What I saw was the Hulk being initially pushed backwards, and then stopping Cain cold. Followed by the bfr.

A while ago someone on this forum claimed that the author stated, that King Hulk briefly stopped the Juggernaut. Is there any truth to this claim?

You see Hulk's foot sliding back, then it goes to the next page where Xavier yells for Cain to stop. Now could you point out where it shows Hulk stopped Juggs?

Originally posted by Mindset
Nope, he never stopped him.

They were trading blows, then they locked arms and Juggs started slowly pushing Hulk back. Then after Juggs was distracted by Xavier he was bfr by Hulk.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0023-24.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0027.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l92/priest_85/WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0028.jpg

Note also Cain being temporarily distracted allowing Hulk to commit the BFR.

Originally posted by Mindset
You see Hulk's foot sliding back, then it goes to the next page where Xavier yells for Cain to stop. Now could you point out where it shows Hulk stopped Juggs?
Yup:

Originally posted by Mindset
You see Hulk's foot sliding back, then it goes to the next page where Xavier yells for Cain to stop. Now could you point out where it shows Hulk stopped Juggs?

You know what I see? I see the Hulk digging in in an attempt to push Cain back, he also seems very confident about his ability to kill Cain, as he states earlier when they are exchanging blows. I guess this depends on how you interpret the sketch. One person may see one thing while another may see something else.

What I see is people CHOOSING to see different things. Hulk is clearly sliding backward. If you don't see that it's because you choose not to see it.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
You know what I see? I see the Hulk digging in in an attempt to push Cain back, he also seems very confident about his ability to kill Cain, as he states earlier when they are exchanging blows. I guess this depends on how you interpret the sketch. One person may see one thing while another may see something else. that indentation in FRONT of the Hulk's foot is a pretty good indicator that he's failing to push can back. In fact its a pretty good indicator that his foot was sliding back.

You'll also note that in the second page there's motion lines arounf the hulks head indicating that.. it moved foreward... if he had been stopped there wouldn't be the motion lines:

(also note, confidence in ones abilities doesn't make a difference unless you're Gladiator)

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yup:

Are you agreeing with me?

what does all this have to do with juggernaut fighting wonder woman?

Originally posted by Creshosk
that indentation in FRONT of the Hulk's foot is a pretty good indicator that he's failing to push can back. In fact its a pretty good indicator that his foot was sliding back.

You'll also note that in the second page there's motion lines arounf the hulks head indicating that.. it moved foreward... if he had been stopped there wouldn't be the motion lines:


What he said.

It isn't a series of illustrations that is really up to interpretation this time. It isn't a series of blurred lines symbolising speed. As far as logical deductions from illustrations go, it doesn't get much more concrete than this.

Originally posted by Creshosk
(also note, confidence in ones abilities doesn't make a difference unless you're Gladiator)


Have to disagree here though.

Originally posted by h1a8
His limits aren't exactly known. But his strength is not limitless since 8th day and Trion are stronger.

Not entirely true. Classic juggernaut's strength could be limitless, and he could still be weaker than other incarnations (ignoring math here).

Originally posted by Creshosk
that indentation in FRONT of the Hulk's foot is a pretty good indicator that he's failing to push can back. In fact its a pretty good indicator that his foot was sliding back.

You'll also note that in the second page there's motion lines arounf the hulks head indicating that.. it moved foreward... if he had been stopped there wouldn't be the motion lines:

(also note, confidence in ones abilities doesn't make a difference unless you're Gladiator)

You're quite correct, but neither has motion lines surrounding their heads, Cain's appear to be there because he turns to look at Xavier. It can also be argued that since the Hulk was possibly 100's of times stronger at the end of WWHulk that Juggernaut might have been a flyweight if they fought when the Hulk was at his strongest.


Originally posted by psycho gundam
what does all this have to do with juggernaut fighting wonder woman?

Nothing. But wonder Woman would be overcome by Cain if they fought, it would possibly be easier for Diana to beat Mongul in H2H combat, than beat the Juggernaut the way she usually deals with opponents of his caliber.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
You're quite correct, but neither has motion lines surrounding their heads, Cain's appear to be there because he turns to look at Xavier. It can also be argued that since the Hulk was possibly 100's of times stronger at the end of WWHulk that Juggernaut might have been a flyweight if they fought when the Hulk was at his strongest.






The main point is not with regards to the motion lines though, which I will say are not strong proof at all. The fact that Hulk was illustrated in as convincing a manner as possible to have been pushed backwards should say enough about who was doing better before the trip. That is the point in contention, not whethere hulk would have done better at the end of the arc.

Originally posted by Mindset
Are you agreeing with me? Yup.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
You're quite correct, but neither has motion lines surrounding their heads, Cain's appear to be there because he turns to look at Xavier. It can also be argued that since the Hulk was possibly 100's of times stronger at the end of WWHulk that Juggernaut might have been a flyweight if they fought when the Hulk was at his strongest. Seeing as how this sort of push struggle isn't different from the previous times, I'd have to say I doubt it, he could be fed enough power from his mystical source to accomplish the moving foreward, even if really slow.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Not entirely true. Classic juggernaut's strength could be limitless, and he could still be weaker than other incarnations (ignoring math here).

Marvel has stated on panel that Juggernaut has unlimited potential. (Incredible Hulk #432)

Not agreeing or disagreeing with that per se. Simply saying that classic juggernaut could have unlimited potential or limited strength, and still be weaker than other incarnations of juggernaut.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
You're quite correct, but neither has motion lines surrounding their heads, Cain's appear to be there because he turns to look at Xavier. It can also be argued that since the Hulk was possibly 100's of times stronger at the end of WWHulk that Juggernaut might have been a flyweight if they fought when the Hulk was at his strongest.




Nothing. But wonder Woman would be overcome by Cain if they fought, it would possibly be easier for Diana to beat Mongul in H2H combat, than beat the Juggernaut the way she usually deals with opponents of his caliber.

She would be over come if they fought? Well Konvict knocked Superman out. Wondy wasn't knocked out in the fight at all. She also has a better shield than he does. Couldn't she just rope him up and win because he wont' be able to move?

She still got her rear handed to her by Konvikt.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
She still got her rear handed to her by Konvikt.

Did she? Where? Looks like she was just gearing up for a fight when Superman charges in and grabs Konny by the eyes. of course he was her superior, but it's not like she was beat up. She got some licks in and took some.

wondy

Originally posted by manx422
wondy loses

Originally posted by jalek moye
one that she cant break she'll tired from dodging and get wrecked

and all her weapons wont do enough to put him down.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Penge-lZPaY/RwJ54SC03lI/AAAAAAAABTM/6_FWHjQ3pdE/juggernaut.jpg

She can just knock him to another state. By the time he gets back she will be well rested and will do it again.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Not entirely true. Classic juggernaut's strength could be limitless, and he could still be weaker than other incarnations (ignoring math here).

There's no proof that Jugg's strength is limitless. When has he shown to increase his strength on panel? Being almost unstoppable has nothing to do with being limitless.

And even if it is limitless (need panel proof though) then who's to say how fast his strength can grow. He can very well gain 1lb of strength per hour.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Marvel has stated on panel that Juggernaut has unlimited potential. (Incredible Hulk #432)

Show me. Do you have any scans? Where do you get this reference from? Why hasn't Juggs ever increased his strength in battle? And increasing one's strength 1lb per hour is also limitless potential by definition. He has no known upper limits as his bios says but this doesn't mean limitless.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess he got it from Incredible Hulk 432.

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess he got it from Incredible Hulk 432.

I doubt it. He most likely got it from some internet site. People also misinterpret things and twist facts up to their liking. That is why it is important to show scans when others don't have the comic.

Originally posted by h1a8
I doubt it. He most likely got it from some internet site. People also misinterpret things and twist facts up to their liking. That is why it is important to show scans when others don't have the comic.

At the end of issue 432 the writers say Juggernaut's strength is limitless. It isn't a misinterpretation. In the issue where the Evil Trion took over his body, his strength increased pretty fast. Xavier even said Cain would be more dangerous if he knew how to use he power correctly in that issue. He also said his attacks where getting stronger in the Hulk fight.

2 times in 2 different comics Hulk writers have said Juggernaut has unlimited potential. But unlike Hulk Juggs doesn't appear as much nor does he have his own comic. So you are not going to get many examples. In Juggernaut's one shot, D'Spayre took "all" of his Cains power to his knowledge. To D'Spayre's surprises Cain stood before him as nothing but a skeleton. But that shouldn't have happened if D'Spayre took "all" of his power. That is an example of Cain drawing on more power.

But I also see where you are coming from with the, rate at which he can increase his strength. It would also depend on if two characters increase their strength at the same rate, who started out higher. Or if one could gain more power faster then the other. Depending on the story and writer can only give you that answer.

Originally posted by h1a8
There's no proof that Jugg's strength is limitless. When has he shown to increase his strength on panel? Being almost unstoppable has nothing to do with being limitless.

And even if it is limitless (need panel proof though) then who's to say how fast his strength can grow. He can very well gain 1lb of strength per hour.

Did you even read my post? I have in no way claimed or stated that Juggernaut's strength is limitless. What I did state was that Juggernaut's strength COULD be limitless, but Juggernaut himself can still be weaker than another Juggernaut incarnation. Big difference.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
At the end of issue 432 the writers say Juggernaut's strength is limitless. It isn't a misinterpretation. In the issue where the Evil Trion took over his body, his strength increased pretty fast. Xavier even said Cain would be more dangerous if he knew how to use he power correctly in that issue. He also said his attacks where getting stronger in the Hulk fight.

2 times in 2 different comics Hulk writers have said Juggernaut has unlimited potential. But unlike Hulk Juggs doesn't appear as much nor does he have his own comic. So you are not going to get many examples. In Juggernaut's one shot, D'Spayre took "all" of his Cains power to his knowledge. To D'Spayre's surprises Cain stood before him as nothing but a skeleton. But that shouldn't have happened if D'Spayre took "all" of his power. That is an example of Cain drawing on more power.

But I also see where you are coming from with the, rate at which he can increase his strength. It would also depend on if two characters increase their strength at the same rate, who started out higher. Or if one could gain more power faster then the other. Depending on the story and writer can only give you that answer.

The was an issue where Juggs gave his buddy Cassidy half his power. They both were weaker than the original Juggs. No where did either increased their strength to the original Jugg's strength level. By their defeat Juggs threw the gem into outer space so that no one can share his power (and thus weaken him).

Writers quotes are not canon. And healing oneself isn't the same as unlimited strength. Cyttorak limits the strength and power of Juggs. This is why both 8th day and Trion were stronger. So while it may be the truth, it is not practical to say that a character has unlimited potential in anything when it will never be an available option in the forum battle. For example, Superman has unlimited potential too. But it requires him to be sundipped though. And that isn't an option in the forum battle. The same is with Juggs. Juggs has lost many many battles. So I don't see Cyttorak increasing his strength to 8th day levels or beyond just because he's fighting someone losing.

Originally posted by Ouallada
Did you even read my post? I have in no way claimed or stated that Juggernaut's strength is limitless. What I did state was that Juggernaut's strength COULD be limitless, but Juggernaut himself can still be weaker than another Juggernaut incarnation. Big difference.

The hypothetical COULD doesn't apply to fictional characters. This is because they don't exist. Thus it all depends on the writers' opinions. But writer's opinions may or may not be valid as some of us only go on on panel evidence. But according to the entire Jugg's history, it seems that all writers who wrote Juggs never intended on Juggs having the power to increase his strength on his own will. His strength level depends on the will of Cyttorak alone. Meaning, Cyttorak limits his strength. This is why 8th day and Trion were stronger and why Juggs and Cassidy were weaker than the original Juggs when they shared the power.

But it is a waste of time even mentioning something that isn't practical (or won't happen) in a forum fight. This is to say, I don't see Cyttorak increasing Juggs strength beyond any limits just because he's fighting someone and losing. So saying that Juggs have (or could have) unlimited potential doesn't help him here. It is a moot point indeed.

Sorry for me misunderstanding you though. And note, some of this post isn't directed towards you but any who thinks that Juggs can increase his strength beyond any limit off his own will.

.

Originally posted by h1a8
The was an issue where Juggs gave his buddy Cassidy half his power. They both were weaker than the original Juggs. No where did either increased their strength to the original Jugg's strength level. By their defeat Juggs threw the gem into outer space so that no one can share his power (and thus weaken him).

Writers quotes are not canon. And healing oneself isn't the same as unlimited strength. Cyttorak limits the strength and power of Juggs. This is why both 8th day and Trion were stronger. So while it may be the truth, it is not practical to say that a character has unlimited potential in anything when it will never be an available option in the forum battle. For example, Superman has unlimited potential too. But it requires him to be sundipped though. And that isn't an option in the forum battle. The same is with Juggs. Juggs has lost many many battles. So I don't see Cyttorak increasing his strength to 8th day levels or beyond just because he's fighting someone losing.

Juggernaut didn't attempt to draw on any more power.

I am going to go on what the writers say over your opinion. And I wasn't referencing him healing. D'Spraye said he took all of his power. Yet Juggernaut still had power. So that means he can draw on more power when he needs it.

If you read WWH X-men #3, you will read that Cyttorak says that he doesn't limit Cain's power. One of the editors at the time of 8th Day said Cain didn't have a power up. The Evil Trion that inhabited Cains body didn't power him up, nor did Cyttorak. The Trion was just using Cains power better and drawing on more of it.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Juggernaut didn't attempt to draw on any more power.

I am going to go on what the writers say over your opinion. And I wasn't referencing him healing. D'Spraye said he took all of his power. Yet Juggernaut still had power. So that means he can draw on more power when he needs it. No it doesn't. It just means that Cyttorak will always return Juggs to original power levels (not more). Remember Cyttorak limits him.

If you read WWH X-men #3, you will read that Cyttorak says that he doesn't limit Cain's power. One of the editors at the time of 8th Day said Cain didn't have a power up. The Evil Trion that inhabited Cains body didn't power him up, nor did Cyttorak. The Trion was just using Cains power better and drawing on more of it. Writer's opinions aren't canon. This is because they can always change their mind, they don't always agree with other writers (or the original ones), etc. But when they put it in the comic then it is etched in stone.

If Cyttorak said this then he lied.
He indeed limits Juggs strength. Juggs being less evil is why Juggs was depowered by him. Also this is why Cyttorak increased Juggs in 8th day. This is why Juggs sharing his power weakens him.

Does anyone else notice a contradiction here...

Originally posted by h1a8
Writer's opinions aren't canon. This is because they can always change their mind, they don't always agree with other writers (or the original ones), etc. But when they put it in the comic then it is etched in stone.

Originally posted by h1a8

If Cyttorak said this then he lied.
He indeed limits Juggs strength. Juggs being less evil is why Juggs was depowered by him. Also this is why Cyttorak increased Juggs in 8th day. This is why Juggs sharing his power weakens him.


Sorry I just had to point that out...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Does anyone else notice a contradiction here...






Sorry I just had to point that out...

Originally posted by h1a8
If Cyttorak said this then he lied.
He indeed limits Juggs strength. Juggs being less evil is why Juggs was depowered by him. Also this is why Cyttorak increased Juggs in 8th day. This is why Juggs sharing his power weakens him.

No where has it ever been said that Cyttorak limits Cains strength. I like how you believe certain things on panel and not things you don't like.

Again I'll believe the writers and what they had Cyttorak say over your opinion.

Juggernaut indeed might have unlimited strength potential. Howver his strength is based on the amount of power he is able to draw from the cyttorrak gem. Hence the reason Trion is greater than 8th day who is in turn greater dan classic and classic is greater than current( at least cuurent b4 WWH). He wins because he wont tire and wondy cant hurt him but he can and will hurt her

The Current Juggernaut is back to his regular or classic levels, as seen in WWHulk.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Does anyone else notice a contradiction here...






Sorry I just had to point that out...

I proved he lied. Thus his lying is etched in stone. Where's the contradiction?

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
No where has it ever been said that Cyttorak limits Cains strength. I like how you believe certain things on panel and not things you don't like. It doesn't have to say. It only needs to show. It which it did.

That's fine. But what writers have to say hold no water here and panel evidence do (unless they are explaining the story they already wrote).

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Juggernaut indeed might have unlimited strength potential. Howver his strength is based on the amount of power he is able to draw from the cyttorrak gem. Hence the reason Trion is greater than 8th day who is in turn greater dan classic and classic is greater than current( at least cuurent b4 WWH). He wins because he wont tire and wondy cant hurt him but he can and will hurt her

Cyttorak limits the amount he can draw. That is why Cyttorak was able to depower him. That is why Juggs was weaker when he shared his power. That is why Cyttorak made Juggs stronger during 8th day and Trion saga. For if Juggs found a way to draw upon more power on his own will then he will still be at 8th day or Trion levels now wouldn't he?

Originally posted by h1a8
Cyttorak limits the amount he can draw. That is why Cyttorak was able to depower him. That is why Juggs was weaker when he shared his power. That is why Cyttorak made Juggs stronger during 8th day and Trion saga. For if Juggs found a way to draw upon more power on his own will then he will still be at 8th day or Trion levels now wouldn't he? Not really cause the amount of power he draws is determined by how focused he is on doing something.

Originally posted by Newjak
Not really cause the amount of power he draws is determined by how focused he is on doing something. Pfft, WW ftw. uhuh

Originally posted by h1a8
I proved he lied. Thus his lying is etched in stone. Where's the contradiction? You didn't prove that he lied. you presented more unbacked speculative opinion. That hardly constitutes as proof.

Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't have to say. It only needs to show. It which it did.

It has never shown that.
Originally posted by h1a8
That's fine. But what writers have to say hold no water here and panel evidence do (unless they are explaining the story they already wrote).
Again this is all your opinion. And Juggernaut has shown to be able to increase his strength on panel. One of the editors at the time of the 8th Day arc said Juggernaut didn't get a power up, yet he was stronger. It hasn't been obvious.
Originally posted by h1a8
Cyttorak limits the amount he can draw. That is why Cyttorak was able to depower him. That is why Juggs was weaker when he shared his power. That is why Cyttorak made Juggs stronger during 8th day and Trion saga. For if Juggs found a way to draw upon more power on his own will then he will still be at 8th day or Trion levels now wouldn't he?
You need to go back and read the WWH X-Men #3 because it says different, and on panel. Cyttorak didn't make Juggs stronger during the 8th Day arc or the Trion one. "Would he still be at those levels?" Is Hulk still at WWH levels?

Both the 8th Day event and Trion event, Juggs wasn't in control. On 8th Day Juggs was mind controlled and was focused on getting somewhere, that is why he got stronger. When the Trion possessed him, they were controlling his power and drawing more of it.

There is absolutely nothing Wonderwoman can do to Juggernaut.

Stalemate or win for Juggs here.

Originally posted by h1a8
The hypothetical COULD doesn't apply to fictional characters. This is because they don't exist. Thus it all depends on the writers' opinions. But writer's opinions may or may not be valid as some of us only go on on panel evidence. But according to the entire Jugg's history, it seems that all writers who wrote Juggs never intended on Juggs having the power to increase his strength on his own will. His strength level depends on the will of Cyttorak alone. Meaning, Cyttorak limits his strength. This is why 8th day and Trion were stronger and why Juggs and Cassidy were weaker than the original Juggs when they shared the power.

But it is a waste of time even mentioning something that isn't practical (or won't happen) in a forum fight. This is to say, I don't see Cyttorak increasing Juggs strength beyond any limits just because he's fighting someone and losing. So saying that Juggs have (or could have) unlimited potential doesn't help him here. It is a moot point indeed.

Sorry for me misunderstanding you though. And note, some of this post isn't directed towards you but any who thinks that Juggs can increase his strength beyond any limit off his own will.

My post isn't arguing for or against Juggernaut having limitless potential. That is a point I don't care about enough right now to speak for or against. My post simply pointed out that being limitless in one aspect may not always be mutually exclusive with being weaker than another entity, which is true, as long as mathematics is ignored.

And no problems with the misunderstanding.

Originally posted by h1a8
Show me. Do you have any scans? Where do you get this reference from? Why hasn't Juggs ever increased his strength in battle? And increasing one's strength 1lb per hour is also limitless potential by definition. He has no known upper limits as his bios says but this doesn't mean limitless.

No, I don't have scans of it. It's from Green Mail at the back of issue #432.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It has never shown that. Of course it did. Where were you?
Now either what I say is true or false but certainly no opinion. The reason writer's quotes hold no water because people lie, people change their minds, people don't have current authority, etc. The only way we can know for sure of something is if it happens on panel. Otherwise, it isn't certain whether something is true or false. And something that is not 100% certain is pure speculation.
Why did Juggs get and stayed weaker when he shared his power? Juggs threw the gem in space in disgust so that no one can ever share his power and weaken him again. So that event proves that either Juggs can't increase his strength on his own or lacks the knowledge to do so.

Also, why did Cyttorak depower Juggs that time? This also proves that Cyttorak limits Juggs for his purpose.
Why speculate so hard? Speculation is an automatic fail. 8th day Juggs was clearly in control. It was just he was being called somewhere. He had all his mental facilities operating.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You didn't prove that he lied. you presented more unbacked speculative opinion. That hardly constitutes as proof.

How do you prove someone lied? You show that what happened contradicts what they said. This is what I did, Pure and Simple.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
There is absolutely nothing Wonderwoman can do to Juggernaut.

Stalemate or win for Juggs here.

She can lasso him and bound him up.
She can possibly make him give up the Gem's power or give her half the power like he did Cassidy.

Originally posted by h1a8
Of course it did. Where were you?

Again I don't remember Cy ever saying he grants Cains certain amount of strength. Point out an issue.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why did Juggs get and stayed weaker when he shared his power? Juggs threw the gem in space in disgust so that no one can ever share his power and weaken him again. So that event proves that either Juggs can't increase his strength on his own or lacks the knowledge to do so.

There is a nice little retcon that explains this. Go read New Excalibur's Redeemed arc. When someone else comes in contact with the gem and their is a potential for a new Juggernaut they lose most of the power and are killable. So the two Juggernauts duke it out till one is dead and the other gets the power.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, why did Cyttorak depower Juggs that time? This also proves that Cyttorak limits Juggs for his purpose.

Here is where your "argument" is shooting it self down. ON PANEL, Cyttorak has said he wasn't the one restricting Cains power.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why speculate so hard? Speculation is an automatic fail. 8th day Juggs was clearly in control. It was just he was being called somewhere. He had all his mental facilities operating.

There is no speculation on that. Have you even read the 8th day arc? Cain was definitely not completely in control. This is shown especially in the part 4 8th Day one shot. All of the exemplars where being mind controlled. Cain was fighting for control over his own mind against Cy. You can see the part where Cain breaks free and starts fighting against the other exemplars.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Again I don't remember Cy ever saying he grants Cains certain amount of strength. Point out an issue.



There is a nice little retcon that explains this. Go read New Excalibur's Redeemed arc. When someone else comes in contact with the gem and their is a potential for a new Juggernaut they lose most of the power and are killable. So the two Juggernauts duke it out till one is dead and the other gets the power.



Here is where your "argument" is shooting it self down. ON PANEL, Cyttorak has said he wasn't the one restricting Cains power.



There is no speculation on that. Have you even read the 8th day arc? Cain was definitely not completely in control. This is shown especially in the part 4 8th Day one shot. All of the exemplars where being mind controlled. Cain was fighting for control over his own mind against Cy. You can see the part where Cain breaks free and starts fighting against the other exemplars.

I disagree. Even if what you are saying is true then it's moot anyway.
Why? Because "Potential is meaningless if it remains untapped". Since there was no where on panel where it showed Juggs increasing his strength (his bios don't even mention this but they mention it for Hulk, SS, etc.) then he either must not know about it or really can't do it. So anyway you look at it, Juggs won't be doing that here in the forum battle.