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Ok for those who don't know Young Ocelot started to develop CQC techniques after his encounters with Naked Snake during operation Snake Eater. His learning curve was high as he was able to stalemate Naked Snake for a while in the WIG, and he even copied his moves. So this gauntlet is to judge young Ocelot's CQC skills vs the top CQC dogs in the MGSverse. The matches will not be pretty.

1. Liquid Snake
2. Solid Snake
3. Naked Snake(Snake Eater)
4. Old Snake
5. Liquid Ocelot
6. The Boss
7. Big Boss
Ocelot vs Naked Snake
8P-qTzEURgU
Discuss.

So this is strictly CQC moves? Not a normal hand to hand, everything goes, kinda fight, right?
If so....

1. I have no idea what experience Liquid has with CQC. If I had to guess, I'd say not that much. He'd probably lose due to lack of technique. He's WAY more built though, and is pretty much his superior in all physical ways. Though since it's CQC I'd say he'd still lose.

2. Solid Snake is better in every way when it comes to experience, physicality and combat. I don't know how good he is at CQC, but he can still trap enemies in holds, snap necks, throw, etc. I'd say that qualifies as pretty good CQC. I'd say he'd be able to defeat because he'll never go down.

3. Naked Snake would win. He basically had him down in the airship, and that was after having spent days upon days in the forest (and he never sleeps on the first 24 hours where you visit Granin's lab, then go straight for the fortress.), gotten his eye shot out and tortured to hell and back, fought the boss a couple of minutes ago, and having barley recovered from broken bones and cuts a week earlier. (He'd still be in a hospital during operation Snake Eater according to Zero if I remember right).
He takes this.

4. Old Snake pwn his ass.

5. Same.

6. Same.

7. Same.


Now just how wrong was I?

Originally posted by kamikz
So this is strictly CQC moves? Not a normal hand to hand, everything goes, kinda fight, right?
If so....

1. I have no idea what experience Liquid has with CQC. If I had to guess, I'd say not that much. He'd probably lose due to lack of technique. He's WAY more built though, and is pretty much his superior in all physical ways. Though since it's CQC I'd say he'd still lose.

2. Solid Snake is better in every way when it comes to experience, physicality and combat. I don't know how good he is at CQC, but he can still trap enemies in holds, snap necks, throw, etc. I'd say that qualifies as pretty good CQC. I'd say he'd be able to defeat because he'll never go down.

3. Naked Snake would win. He basically had him down in the airship, and that was after having spent days upon days in the forest (and he never sleeps on the first 24 hours where you visit Granin's lab, then go straight for the fortress.), gotten his eye shot out and tortured to hell and back, fought the boss a couple of minutes ago, and having barley recovered from broken bones and cuts a week earlier. (He'd still be in a hospital during operation Snake Eater according to Zero if I remember right).
He takes this.

4. Old Snake pwn his ass.

5. Same.

6. Same.

7. Same.


Now just how wrong was I? Pretty much agreed.

I agree with you guys. What I'm mostly interested in is how good Solid & Liquid's CQC is by using a young Ocelot. You see when Snake Eater came out many claimed Solid & Liquid didn't know CQC which I completely refused to believe. Before MGS3 came out Snake was written as being an expert in CQB which is pretty much the same crap as CQC. People used the logic that because we had not seen Snake pull off stunts like Naked Snake and The Boss that he didn't know it, but IMO they had not shown that degree of skill because Kojima had not thought of CQC back then. As simple as that. Now MGS4 comes around and we see an Old Snake who is very efficient with CQC and a Liquid Ocelot who manages to defeat Old Snake with CQC.

Now the big question is...Do Liquid Ocelot's CQC's skills come from Liquid Snake or Revolver Ocelot's CQC?

Anyways I pretty much agree with the way you guys have written the fights.

I was going to use Liquid Ocelot as an alternate scenario but figured they were 2 entirely different chars.

About Liquid Ocelot...

Is he just Ocelot pretending to be Liquid, like he took up the role or sumthin like that?

From what I know Ocelot got rid of Liquid's arm and had a cyborg one instead. Then he used nanomachines and hypnosis to create the Liquid Snake personality in order to fool the Patriots system into believing he was really Liquid Snake. So yes...he was essentially Liquid Snake. Only in the end do we begin to see signs of Ocelot's personality.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
About Liquid Ocelot...

Is he just Ocelot pretending to be Liquid, like he took up the role or sumthin like that?

During MGS2 Liquid really did take over his body. But after the the Big Shell Incident, Ocelot removed Liquid's arm and replaced it with a artificial muscle arm in MGS4.

But how did he get rid of it? I thought he wasn't in control anymore, thus wouldn't be able to make such a decision...

Originally posted by kamikz
But how did he get rid of it? I thought he wasn't in control anymore, thus wouldn't be able to make such a decision...

Liquid only had control of Ocelot when he was close to Snake, so I'm guessing that when Liquid traveled a certain distance away from Snake, his control vanished. I know the database does state that he indeed remove Liquid's arm in favor of the artificial muscle arm.

I don't know what to think. Liquid, after this last takeover, seems to be in complete control over Ocelot all the time, he even says he's going to crush the Patriots. If he would go away a couple of miles, and Ocelot returns to normal, then that would be over, and he should know as much...

But it's only a characters view on the matter, not a canon one, so I guess he could be wrong.


There were some things I didn't get though.

First off all, if Liquid were inside Ocelot's mind, he should know of Ocelot's intentions about destroying them and freeing Big Boss. But he's not aware of it, at least he does not tell anyone. I mean, if he figured out Big Boss was still alive he would be cumming all over the place.
He talks of Ocelot as if he really was loyal to the Patriots. Why would he keep anything else a secret?

He also talks about how he was the one who sent information about Arsenal to Otacon. How would he do that unless he was close to Snake?


Oh, btw, don't know if you guys have heard this, but I just heard a codec sequence in MGS2 where they explain Vamp's shadow binding technique. It's a form of hypnosis.
Guess that makes him more human yet again. Now he's only got superhuman strength, speed, agility, jumping and water-walking supernatural abilities left.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Now MGS4 comes around and we see an Old Snake who is very efficient with CQC and a Liquid Ocelot who manages to defeat Old Snake with CQC.


Old Snake kicked Liquid Ocelot's ass. Where did you see Ocelot beating Old Snake? It wasn't at the end of the game that's for sure. At best Ocelot hanged in there but Snake whooped him.

In Act 3, Ocelot beat Snake down pretty hard, put Snake's own knife in his shoulder, etc. He stated that he was the greater at CQC. At that moment, Snake got pwned good.

Then again, Snake wasn't really in the brightest position there, being surrounded by enemies, EVA being shot, and them losing Big Boss' body might have done a huge thing to his psyche, as well as basically ridding him of any belief of winning. (Even if Snake would beat down Liquid, what would he do? He had already lost, he can't take out all those soldiers alone).

Snake beat him at the end though, when they were one on one with nothing else in the way. (Even though Snake was half dead before that, and his muscle suit basically torn apart)
I think Ocelot is greater in CQC, but Snake is a better unarmed fighter overall. Thus he won in the end, but lost the straight CQC battle.

Nah I just think Snake is better. I mean half the time Ocelot used those shots in the battle to enhance himself. Sure Snake did too but considering he went right through a long-ass microwave hallway I'd say he was nowhere near his full fighting shape at that moment.

Originally posted by kamikz

I think Ocelot is greater in CQC, but Snake is a better unarmed fighter overall. Thus he won in the end, but lost the straight CQC battle.

Isn't CQC also unarmed fighting?

It's more of grappling techniques I think, like judo. My point is, there are other forms of combat than CQC, that people are familiar with, and fight efficiently with.