Wolverine vs. Daredevil - H2H

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Pyron_Knight
Wolverine's healing factor is canceled for this. It's a pure skill matchup in hand-to-hand coupled with super-senses.

Who wins?

Darth Martin
Daredevil

Soljer
Does Logan have time to get used to and train with his lack of healing factor? Or is it stripped from him immediately before he's thrown in a cage with Daredevil?

Juk3n
Kumute style, i say DD lands more blows than Logan

DD for the majority tbh..

Pyron_Knight
He gets to train and get used to it.

I've heard Matt has treated Logan pretty badly in Wolvie's own comic and when the latter had a powerup.
Know what that was all about? I just heard it somewhere and am curious.
Any idea

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
He gets to train and get used to it.

I've heard Matt has treated Logan pretty badly in Wolvie's own comic and when the latter had a powerup.
Know what that was all about? I just heard it somewhere and am curious.
Any idea

Wolverine was mind-controlled, conciously trying fight said mind-control and was missing part of his soul for that "fight". He wasn't anywhere near his fighting best and even then DD only survived because he managed to momentarily break the Hands hold on Wolverine. It happens in Wolverine 24 if you want to check it out.

Wolverine wins the high majority.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine was mind-controlled, conciously trying fight said mind-control

Prove it. DD wins the majority.

Daredevil1
DD's showings are pretty good against Logan.

One showing he puts Logan down but not out.

One showing against Logan with tech and has help from the Hand as DD does well against him.

One showing Logan tries a sneak attack on Daredevil in Fallen son and DD avoids him easily.

One showing Logan gets DD in a full nelson.

But for the majority of the showing DD looks decent.

In hand to hand with no healing factor I give it too DD.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Prove it. DD wins the majority.

It was in the story... it was explicitly stated in the narrative of that very issue as well as by Captian America and Nicky Fury in the same story arch. That's why admist killing superheroes, he stopped to save a woman from rappists. Have you read the story?

Mr. Slippyfist
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Prove it. DD wins the majority. laughing out loud

Starscream M
DD wins a couple, but Logan wins majority 6 out of 10

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It was in the story... it was explicitly stated in the narrative of that very issue as well as by Captian America and Nicky Fury in the same story arch. That's why admist killing superheroes, he stopped to save a woman from rappists. Have you read the story? Didn't stop him from killing a crap load of people, both heroes and innocents. Petting a dog and saving a woman AFTER committing his atrocities doesn't speak very well of his success in fighting back. And in the fight against Daredevil, although at the very end he says he tried his best to stop them from nabbing Elektra, he still had dozens of Hand ninjas helping him and his thought captions during the fight clearly indicated he was trying to kill Daredevil.

If you want to detract from the fight due to HYDRA's reprogramming, that's ok. You can detract from all of Wolverine's feats throughout 'Enemy Of The State' then. It just appears that most of us simply disagree that Wolverine was significantly handicapped.

This is a tough fight. I'll go with stalemate for the moment. Despite Daredevil's ability to use his radar sense to telegraph, if it's pure H2H, Wolverine's more likely to concentrate and give a good fight.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
One showing he puts Logan down but not out.


I don't know what instance you are talking about... but considering you have all of their other scuffles listed below I assuming you are talking about when DD tackled Wolverine off of Bushwacker? If that's the case he didn't even put Wolverine down...

Originally posted by Daredevil1
One showing against Logan with tech and has help from the Hand as DD does well against him.


Wolverine was mind-controlled, missing parting of his soul and was consciously fighting against his mind-control.

Wolverine missing part of his soul was unable to beat Azrael and his clone that had the missing part of his soul. With his soul restored he was able to fight them both at the same time... and pretty much walk all over them both. His fighting skills took a serious nose dive just from missing part of his soul, and in EotS he was also mindcontrolled. He wasn't nearly at 100%

Originally posted by Daredevil1
One showing Logan tries a sneak attack on Daredevil in Fallen son and DD avoids him easily.


Wolverine just wanted to know if it was the real Matt (don't know why he couldn't tell via smell but it Loeb so who cares about plot holes) he wasn't going full out or anything. But he did avoid an attack.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
One showing Logan gets DD in a full nelson.


Yes.

xmarksthespot
Wolverine dies from adamantium poisoning...

But assuming that doesn't happen via magic in this thread, and given it's specified he's been given time to adjust to fighting without a healing factor and thus revert to a less nonchalant attitude towards injury and a renewed reliance on skill, I'd give him the majority.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Didn't stop him from killing a crap load of people, both heroes and innocents. Petting a dog and saving a woman AFTER committing his atrocities doesn't speak very well of his success in fighting back. And in the fight against Daredevil, although at the very end he says he tried his best to stop them from nabbing Elektra, he still had dozens of Hand ninjas helping him and his thought captions during the fight clearly indicated he was trying to kill Daredevil.

True enough, he killed a boat load of masks BUT keep in mind he was aware that the Hand would revive any of the heroes he bagged, where as the chances of them reviving some random civi are pretty much nil. An argument could be made that he would fight harder to protect a civilian than a hero on that fact alone and there is also the fact that Wolverine adheres to a live by the sword die by the sword mentality and it is easier to rationalise killing a hero - as they know the risks when they choose to put on the spandex - than some random civilian who just in the wrong place at the wrong place.

Anyway Wolverine's lack of success fighting off the brain-washing isn't that important IMO, the mere fact that he was consciously trying break free is enough to limit his effectiveness in combat. If you are at war with your self and second guessing your decisions how can you be operating at peak efficiency?

Keep in mind Wolverine had three separate internal narratives during EotS. Green box, tan box and white box.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you want to detract from the fight due to HYDRA's reprogramming, that's ok. You can detract from all of Wolverine's feats throughout 'Enemy Of The State' then. It just appears that most of us simply disagree that Wolverine was significantly handicapped.


Wolverine is a dangerous man. He is a dangerous man even when he isn't at peak levels. No character has ever operated at their optimum efficiency during mind control, its pretty much a comic book rule of thumb. Did Wolverine do some impressive stuff during EotS? Sure, but he still wasn't at 100%.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know what instance you are talking about... but considering you have all of their other scuffles listed below I assuming you are talking about when DD tackled Wolverine off of Bushwacker? If that's the case he didn't even put Wolverine down...



Nope its when Logan was after Punisher and DD put Logan down.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by srankmissingnin




Yes.

I notice you put all circumstances or excuses for Logans part but not on DD's one.

Mine were more non-biased unlike yours.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I notice you put all circumstances or excuses for Logans part but not on DD's one.

Mine were more non-biased unlike yours.

Daredevil attacked Wolverine taking him by surprise while he was in persuit of Typhoid Mary. Wolverine quickly gains control of the situation and places DD in a full nelson?

Creshosk
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I notice you put all circumstances or excuses for Logans part but not on DD's one.

Mine were more non-biased unlike yours. Calling the other person biased doesn't help your argument, Daredevil1.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Creshosk
Calling the other person biased doesn't help your argument, Daredevil1.

Maybe.......but it feels sooooooooooooooo goooooooooooood. wink

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
True enough, he killed a boat load of masks BUT keep in mind he was aware that the Hand would revive any of the heroes he bagged, where as the chances of them reviving some random civi are pretty much nil. An argument could be made that he would fight harder to protect a civilian than a hero on that fact alone and there is also the fact that Wolverine adheres to a live by the sword die by the sword mentality and it is easier to rationalise killing a hero - as they know the risks when they choose to put on the spandex - than some random civilian who just in the wrong place at the wrong place.

Anyway Wolverine's lack of success fighting off the brain-washing isn't that important IMO, the mere fact that he was consciously trying break free is enough to limit his effectiveness in combat. If you are at war with your self and second guessing your decisions how can you be operating at peak efficiency?

Keep in mind Wolverine had three separate internal narratives during EotS. Green box, tan box and white box.Wolverine killed a lot of innocent civilians also such as employees at Stark's buildings. He also gutted Hornet and left his body instead of bringing it back. If he was subconsciously relying on the Hand to revive him, why'd he leave him there with his entrails slashed to ribbons and suffering? Wolverine had no chance of fighting HYDRA's control and not once, in ANY of his fights or raids did he actually ever hesitate. He never stopped in mid-swing, he never said anything out-loud, he never physically struggled.

And in many of his fights, Wolverine is at war with himself. Two words: Berserker. Rage. He struggles with his berserker rage quite regularly. He tries to surpress it, tries to deny it, it doesn't affect his fighting abilities however as the most fervent Wolverine fans argue.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Wolverine is a dangerous man. He is a dangerous man even when he isn't at peak levels. No character has ever operated at their optimum efficiency during mind control, its pretty much a comic book rule of thumb. Did Wolverine do some impressive stuff during EotS? Sure, but he still wasn't at 100%. It is a commonly accepted rule of thumb that mind-control does detract from the validity of a fight. Most of the time, I find that it is used as a convenient excuse for people who dislike the outcome of a fight. But I do believe it detracts from a fight. As to what extent, it depends on whether the mind-control reverts them to a puppet-like automaton or a bloodlusted balls-out version. Here, there is a curious mixture of both. But since Daredevil was ambushed and simultaneously fighting the dozens of Hand ninjas that were actively assisting Wolverine and Wolverine never once physically hesitated, I'd say it pretty much evens out.

5/10 stalemate til I see more.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Nope its when Logan was after Punisher and DD put Logan down.

Oh right, I always forget about that Spidy, DD, Wolverine team up.

You are right DD did manage to briefly put Logan down in that issue. To be fair though we don't really know how long Wolverine was down for... and even in that 3-4 issue story arch it was out of line with Wolverine's portrayal. I mean he had 50% of his body completely incinerated and was punched into another state by the Hulk in that same story arch, and BOTH times he wasn't even koyed... but a judo chomp briefly puts him down? Curious no?

Daredevil1
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Oh right, I always forget about that Spidy, DD, Wolverine team up.

You are right DD did manage to briefly put Logan down in that issue. To be fair though we don't really know how long Wolverine was down for... and even in that 3-4 issue story arch it was out of line with Wolverine's portrayal. I mean he had 50% of his body completely incinerated and was punched into another state by the Hulk in that same story arch, and BOTH times he wasn't even koyed... but a judo chomp briefly puts him down? Curious no?


DD specializes in exotic pressure points that he learned with the Chaste. As Nick Fury himself has stated that there's only a few that know what DD knows.

DD has done exotic pressure points to remove sight, induce pain, even heat pain and can even remove speech with pressure points as he used a pressure point strike on Logans neck. Not a judo chop.

DD even put down Hyde with a pressure point. Logan himself was affected by a average pressure pointer like Shingen IIRC. And he's no were on the level of DD skills with pressure points.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Daredevil1
DD specializes in exotic pressure points that he learned with the Chaste. As Nick Fury himself has stated that there's only a few that know what DD knows.

DD has done exotic pressure points to remove sight, induce pain, even heat pain and can even remove speech with pressure points as he used a pressure point strike on Logans neck. Not a judo chop.

DD even put down Hyde with a pressure point. Logan himself was affected by a average pressure pointer like Shingen IIRC. And he's no were on the level of DD skills with pressure points. So you see nothing wrong with DD putting wolverine down, where being incinerated and punched by the hulk failed?

And you have the nerve to accuse other's of bias Daredevil1?

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Creshosk
So you see nothing wrong with DD putting wolverine down, where being incinerated and punched by the hulk failed?

And you have the nerve to accuse other's of bias Daredevil1?


And yet Cap's punches hurt Logan, Daredevil's strikes hurt Logan and put him down in both encounters his hits have hurt Logan. Mr.X a advanced martial artists hurt Logan. Electra has hurt Logan.

The list goes on and on of advanced martial artists hurting Logan. So no maybe your just being biased and ignoring Logan encounters with them. And you have a nerve acting out as a judge when you have done the same.

LOL

Creshosk
Originally posted by Daredevil1
And yet Cap's punches hurt Logan, Daredevil's strikes hurt Logan and put him down in both encounters his hits have hurt Logan. Mr.X a advanced martial artists hurt Logan. Electra has hurt Logan.

The list goes on and on of advanced martial artists hurting Logan. So no maybe your just being biased and ignoring Logan encounters with them. And you have a nerve acting out as a judge when you have done the same.

LOL And the missing the point award goes to Daredevil1

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg


Did you catch where the incidents that srank mentioned were all in the same story arc? That's a rhetorical question in case you couldn't figure out why I was asking you a quesiton where the answer was pretty damned obvious.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Creshosk
And the missing the point award goes to Daredevil1

http://forum.alsacreations.com/upload/2043-fail-camera.jpg


Did you catch where the incidents that srank mentioned were all in the same story arc? That's a rhetorical question in case you couldn't figure out why I was asking you a quesiton where the answer was pretty damned obvious.



I see you failed as you ignore evidence of continuity from else. A pointless point you made. smile

Creshosk
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I see you failed as you ignore evidence of continuity from else. A pointless point you made. smile Yeah replying to a troll is pretty pointless.

But you keep missing that point buddy. I'm sure you can win if you ignore logic hard enough.

eh Dardevil1?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It was in the story... it was explicitly stated in the narrative of that very issue as well as by Captian America and Nicky Fury in the same story arch. That's why admist killing superheroes, he stopped to save a woman from rappists. Have you read the story?

Yes I have read the story Ive told you that before.

Wolverine says he was fighting the mind control but jsut because he said so doesnt mean he was.

Wolverine is shown fighting mind control but not in that issue. The different color boxes represent thoughts not voices.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah replying to a troll is pretty pointless.

But you keep missing that point buddy. I'm sure you can win if you ignore logic hard enough.

eh Dardevil1?

Whats Dardevil1 is a troll now?

Creshosk
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wolverine says he was fighting the mind control but jsut because he said so doesnt mean he was. Reported for trolling. smile

Eventually you're going to learn to stop blatently discarding on panel feats.

Originally posted by Badabing
Offering an opinion or asking questions isn't trolling unless it disrupts the thread or is a blatant disregard of scans and panel feats.

Phantom Zone
no

Creshosk
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whats Dardevil1 is a troll now? Troll can also be used as a verb you know. In your case its a noun.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
no
You refuse to learn to stop doing that? Nifty.

Indestructible
Hate to say it but DD would take out logan

Soljer
With the stipulations provided by the original poster, I have to give Wolverine the majority. He's Matt's superior in pure physical stats, and at least his equal in skill. Since he has time to train without his healing factor, he won't be making any clumsy mistakes out of 'habit,' either.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Phantom Zone


Let him think what he wants. I done responding to him. But anyhow who do you give the majority too in this scenario???

Soljer
Daredevil1 has never been anything but respectful and rational as far as I can recall. Admittedly, I didn't read the discourse in this thread, but in general he's a pretty good character. Definitely not a troll on the level of Alfheim or anything.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Soljer
With the stipulations provided by the original poster, I have to give Wolverine the majority. He's Matt's superior in pure physical stats, and at least his equal in skill. Since he has time to train without his healing factor, he won't be making any clumsy mistakes out of 'habit,' either.


Superior in agility and speed is debatable. Equal in skill I don't agree as Logan when it comes to punching, kicking dodging its close. But DD has exotic pressure points that Logan has never displayed.

That might give him the edge in at least who has the most knowledge in martial arts.

Soljer
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Superior in agility and speed is debatable. Equal in skill I don't agree as Logan when it comes to punching, kicking dodging its close. But DD has exotic pressure points that Logan has never displayed.

That might give him the edge in at least who has the most knowledge in martial arts.

Agility's a strong possibility, but I rarely take that into account in fights. I can't recall the last time that being able to perform a double tuck back flip handspring round off full turn 720 degree figure eight dick-pommel rather than a somersault saved someone's life. stick out tongue.

I mean, I could understand if it was a significant advantage - if it were against a brick like the Hulk who can barely raise his arms above his head because he's so muscled, but Wolverine is pretty agile himself.

Ha-Son
Whoever has better jiu jitsu skills wins. uhuh

Never
Daredevil has a SIGNIFICANT advantage over Wolverine in H2H. Period.

Wolverine was trained by who? DD was trained by Stick. There's no comparison. Sabretooth tried that crap with DD. The fight was slightly in Sabretooth's favor because DD was protecting that child in the Fall of the Mutants story arc. Once the child was safe, DD just. Trashed. Sabretooth. Destroyed him. Sabretooth ran. Sabretooth was created to be, quote, "bigger. stronger. faster" than Wolvie. DD is QUICKER, far more AGILE, and has BETTER senses.

End of story.

DestinyGuy678
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It was in the story... it was explicitly stated in the narrative of that very issue as well as by Captian America and Nicky Fury in the same story arch. That's why admist killing superheroes, he stopped to save a woman from rappists. Have you read the story? wolverines mind control wasnt really shown to hinder him at all during the arc though

Creshosk
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
wolverines mind control wasnt really shown to hinder him at all during the arc though No, that's only your interpretation of it.

And its the actively fighting the mind control that hinders.

DestinyGuy678
Originally posted by Creshosk
No, that's only your interpretation of it.

And its the actively fighting the mind control that hinders. yeah but he was fighitng it plenty of times such as when he fought the fantastic four, it didnt really seem to effect his performance

Daredevil1
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
wolverines mind control wasnt really shown to hinder him at all during the arc though


Agreed he outsmarted Torch and put down the Thing. Showing he was still very dangerous. And he also put down Namor in New Invaders 6 which ties into "Enemy of State".

Creshosk
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
yeah but he was fighitng it plenty of times such as when he fought the fantastic four, it didnt really seem to effect his performance Key words.

We don't know how badly it effected him. Point being is that it shouldn't be admissible due to the circumstance of him not being in his right mind.

DestinyGuy678
Originally posted by Creshosk
Key words.

We don't know how badly it effected him. Point being is that it shouldn't be admissible due to the circumstance of him not being in his right mind. well they actually showed his inner conflict when he was fighting the mond control, so if it didnt have one of those then he shouldve een in control at the time

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Agreed he outsmarted Torch and put down the Thing. Showing he was still very dangerous. And he also put down Namor in New Invaders 6 which ties into "Enemy of State".


Thats the level of Wolverine that Daredevil had to face and add to the fact that Logan had assistants from the hand well then you got one formidable foe. As DD held his own rather nicely.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
Daredevil has a SIGNIFICANT advantage over Wolverine in H2H. Period.

Wolverine was trained by who? DD was trained by Stick. There's no comparison. Sabretooth tried that crap with DD. The fight was slightly in Sabretooth's favor because DD was protecting that child in the Fall of the Mutants story arc. Once the child was safe, DD just. Trashed. Sabretooth. Destroyed him. Sabretooth ran. Sabretooth was created to be, quote, "bigger. stronger. faster" than Wolvie. DD is QUICKER, far more AGILE, and has BETTER senses.

End of story.

...

...

...

Wolverine was trained by Ogun A man so skilled that by nature of that skill alone developed a mastery over the human body that made him immortal and practically impervious to pain. He survived for hundreds of years with out aging a day, could be run through by a sword with out any ill effect and could kill a water Buffalo with a casual open hand slap. He could read minds and transfer bodies. He developed a training method that aloud him to impart years of knowledge to his students in days if not hours. Ogun was the very reason that Stick sent Elektra to retrain Wolverine after he lost his humanity.

Ogun > Stick

I think you should read 238 again. There was never a point when the "child" (who was a lady by the way) was safe and Daredevil "thrashed" Sabretooth. Sabretooth slit the girl's throat and DD got mad, tackled him from behind and hit Vic twice. Matt asked Creed why he did it, Creed basically said he could help himself and then left of his own volition... and Matt was too injured to go after him. When the fight ended DD was trashed, his costume was torn to shred and he was too injured to continue fighting, while Sabretooth on the other hand was fine; and that was three upgrades ago and before any of his back story was developed.

Daredevil is slower than Wolverine. Not more agile enough to matter. By his own admission has sense inferior to Wolverine.

EDIT: Sense of smell anyway.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
wolverines mind control wasnt really shown to hinder him at all during the arc though

He was depicted as still being dangerous. Well of course he was, he is a dangerous man. However, being dangerous doesn't preclude him from suffering under the influences of mind control. It just goes to show that if a Wolverine suffering under the affects of missing part of his soul and mind control is dangerous then he is even MORE dangerous when he is at peak efficiency.

He was depicted over the course of the story as arguing with the two other voices in his head (white and green narration boxes), he stated himself he was actively fighting against the mind control, Fury and Captain America surmised the same thing. It was in the story, arguing otherwise is pointless... all of this of course doesn't even begin to touch on the fact that Wolverine was MISSING PART OF HIS SOUL THAT GREATLY DIMINISHED HIS FIGHT CAPABILITIES. These are the reasons why DD ended up in a full nelson in three panels in MCP and fought off Wolverine for several pages in EotS.

Creshosk
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
well they actually showed his inner conflict when he was fighting the mond control, so if it didnt have one of those then he shouldve een in control at the time What the f**k?
If wolverine was in control at the time he would have killed the hand and not attacked DD.

Ha-Son
Originally posted by Ha-Son
Whoever has better jiu jitsu skills wins. uhuh

Soljer
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...

...

...

Wolverine was trained by Ogun A man so skilled that by nature of that skill alone developed a mastery over the human body that made him immortal and practically impervious to pain. He survived for hundreds of years with out aging a day, could be run through by a sword with out any ill effect and could kill a water Buffalo with a casual open hand slap. He could read minds and transfer bodies. He developed a training method that aloud him to impart years of knowledge to his students in days if not hours. Ogun was the very reason that Stick sent Elektra to retrain Wolverine after he lost his humanity.

Ogun > Stick

I think you should read 238 again. There was never a point when the "child" (who was a lady by the way) was safe and Daredevil "thrashed" Sabretooth. Sabretooth slit the girl's throat and DD got mad, tackled him from behind and hit Vic twice. Matt asked Creed why he did it, Creed basically said he could help himself and then left of his own volition... and Matt was too injured to go after him. When the fight ended DD was trashed, his costume was torn to shred and he was too injured to continue fighting, while Sabretooth on the other hand was fine; and that was three upgrades ago and before any of his back story was developed.

Daredevil is slower than Wolverine. Not more agile enough to matter. By his own admission has sense inferior to Wolverine.

EDIT: Sense of smell anyway.

Owned with 'da knowledge'.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Let him think what he wants. I done responding to him. But anyhow who do you give the majority too in this scenario???

Daredevil. His feats are far more impressive and he can take him down with presure point. Was going to go into more detail why he wins but im too tired.

edit: If wolverine gets used to not having his healing factor I actually might give the majority to Wolverine.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Daredevil. His feats are far more impressive and he can take him down with presure point. Was going to go into more detail why he wins but im too tired.

Wolverine has shanked Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. He's become a Cosmic/Abstract at least once. He's beaten an ancient divine being whose sole purpose is to kick-ass. He's even got a few wins against Magneto...

Let's not compare feats, shall we? twisted1

Even without the healing factor, Wolverine still has superior physical stats in every category, and has that Adamantium skeleton, which protects him that much more in addition to putting more force behind his strikes.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Wolverine has shanked Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. He's become a Cosmic/Abstract at least once. He's beaten an ancient divine being whose sole purpose is to kick-ass. He's even got a few wins against Magneto...

Let's not compare feats, shall we? twisted1

Is this supposed to be some sort of joke or are you for real? You're using that as your criteria? erm

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Even without the healing factor, Wolverine still has superior physical stats in every category, and has that Adamantium skeleton, which protects him that much more in addition to putting more force behind his strikes.

I have a feeling that the thread starter meant no adamantuim but I can't be sure. Anyway if that is the case the main factor here is that he gets used not having a HF.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Is this supposed to be some sort of joke or are you for real?



I have a feeling that the thread starter meant no adamantuim but I can't be sure. Anyway if that is the case the main factor here is that he gets used not having a HF.

The feat thing was a joke, but even with no adamantium or healing factor, he'd still have the physical edge on Daredevil. The only thing Murdock would have on Logan would be reach, assuming the claws won't be used because of the missing healing factor.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The feat thing was a joke,

I was about to say.....Lol come to think of it I think Cap did better against Thanos than Wolverine did. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

but even with no adamantium or healing factor, he'd still have the physical edge on Daredevil. The only thing Murdock would have on Logan would be reach, assuming the claws won't be used because of the missing healing factor.

What are you basing that opinion on?

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I was about to say.....Lol come to think of it I think Cap did better against Thanos than Wolverine did. laughing out loud



What are you basing that opinion on?

Cap got the pimp-hand from Thanos...


I'm basing it off that FACT that Wolverine has (and has shown on-panel) enhanced/superhuman physical abilities. Strength, speed, reflexes, durability, etc. The healing factor improves his stamina and strength, and the adamantium allows him to support heavy lifting, but he's still amped without them. His speed without the adamantium only gets better.

Oh, and the reach theory speaks for itself.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Cap got the pimp-hand from Thanos...

Anyway lets forget it everybody got owned by Thanos anyway.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

I'm basing it off that FACT that Wolverine has (and has shown on-panel) enhanced/superhuman physical abilities. Strength, speed, reflexes, durability, etc. The healing factor improves his stamina and strength, and the adamantium allows him to support heavy lifting, but he's still amped without them. His speed without the adamantium only gets better.

Oh, and the reach theory speaks for itself.

Hes shown enhanced skills without his HF and adamantuim....how do you know?

Were not sure if he has it or not. If he still amped without them the alck of adamantuim does not weigh enough to make a difference to somebody with enhanced strength.

Eternal Idol
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway lets forget it everybody got owned by Thanos anyway.

Yeah, but Thanos backhanded Cap unconscious during one of his patronizing speeches. That's a feat in a league of its own. smoke



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes shown enhanced skills without his HF and adamantuim....how do you know?

Were not sure if he has it or not. If he still amped without them the alck of adamantuim does not weigh enough to make a difference to somebody with enhanced strength.

I never said he was the friggin' Hulk's equal or anything of the sort. He definitely ain't on human level though. That adamantium, being as tough and dense as it is, has to weigh a freakin' ton. No, not literally, Zone. I don't buy it when Marvel's stats bill Wolverine at 300lbs with the adamantium-- it just sounds like a thrown out number. It's not like he's being anchored down by it, but it does weigh him down. Try running around with a backpack full of books. Sure, you can do it just fine, but you're not gonna be nearly as fast.

All this time, Wolverine's shown some impressive displays of strength WHILE having to lug around the extra weight from his skeleton (the elevator feat comes to mind). That should say a lot about his strength.

I'm pretty sure Jinzin's got a few examples of each in his Wolverine Respect thread... (No charge for the plug, Jinzin.) Remember, Logan's been without both for a while after Magneto ripped the adamantium out of him, Alf.

Let's say you're right, though....

*pause for uproar of laughter*

... Wolverine is still more skilled than Daredevil, and would still likely get a speed increase.

jinzin
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...

...

...

Wolverine was trained by Ogun A man so skilled that by nature of that skill alone developed a mastery over the human body that made him immortal and practically impervious to pain. He survived for hundreds of years with out aging a day, could be run through by a sword with out any ill effect and could kill a water Buffalo with a casual open hand slap. He could read minds and transfer bodies. He developed a training method that aloud him to impart years of knowledge to his students in days if not hours. Ogun was the very reason that Stick sent Elektra to retrain Wolverine after he lost his humanity.

Ogun > Stick

I think you should read 238 again. There was never a point when the "child" (who was a lady by the way) was safe and Daredevil "thrashed" Sabretooth. Sabretooth slit the girl's throat and DD got mad, tackled him from behind and hit Vic twice. Matt asked Creed why he did it, Creed basically said he could help himself and then left of his own volition... and Matt was too injured to go after him. When the fight ended DD was trashed, his costume was torn to shred and he was too injured to continue fighting, while Sabretooth on the other hand was fine; and that was three upgrades ago and before any of his back story was developed.

Daredevil is slower than Wolverine. Not more agile enough to matter. By his own admission has sense inferior to Wolverine.

EDIT: Sense of smell anyway. Originally posted by Soljer
Owned with 'da knowledge'.

laughing out loud


yes

Never
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...

...

...

Wolverine was trained by Ogun A man so skilled that by nature of that skill alone developed a mastery over the human body that made him immortal and practically impervious to pain. He survived for hundreds of years with out aging a day, could be run through by a sword with out any ill effect and could kill a water Buffalo with a casual open hand slap. He could read minds and transfer bodies. He developed a training method that aloud him to impart years of knowledge to his students in days if not hours. Ogun was the very reason that Stick sent Elektra to retrain Wolverine after he lost his humanity.

Ogun > Stick

I think you should read 238 again. There was never a point when the "child" (who was a lady by the way) was safe and Daredevil "thrashed" Sabretooth. Sabretooth slit the girl's throat and DD got mad, tackled him from behind and hit Vic twice. Matt asked Creed why he did it, Creed basically said he could help himself and then left of his own volition... and Matt was too injured to go after him. When the fight ended DD was trashed, his costume was torn to shred and he was too injured to continue fighting, while Sabretooth on the other hand was fine; and that was three upgrades ago and before any of his back story was developed.

Daredevil is slower than Wolverine. Not more agile enough to matter. By his own admission has sense inferior to Wolverine.

EDIT: Sense of smell anyway.

Um, lol.

"could mentally drain life energy from another person into his own body, thereby killing that person, causing the victim's body to dissolve. It is not known what other mental powers Stick possessed."

Selene style. Do tell what good being impervious to pain does when your life essence is drained? None. And btw, I was referencing martial arts ability. Ogun > Stick...*sigh*

Actually you should read #238 again. Never paid much attention to the female; always assumed it was a child by appearance:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/7/71/Daredevil_238.jpg/300px-Daredevil_238.jpg

Um, the only reason Sabretooth even touched DD was because he was *protecting* her. Once she was out of harm's way, what happened? Am free to provide quotes and accurate descriptions of the fight panels. DD CRUSHED Sabretooth. Sabretooth didn't even land another lick.

Daredevil is NOT slower than Wolverine. Hand speed, kicks, punches, reflexes. Call that "quickness" as I generally use "fast" to describe straight line speed. Writers used to always reference Wolverine's additional weight as a result of the adamantium melded to his skeleton.

Yeah, DD's slow. LoL.

http://semanticdrift.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/daredevilfnf1.jpg

Yeah, DD's slow. LoL.

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villain/paladin/daredevil152.jpg

Wolverine was NEVER originally conceived to be ultra-quick. Archangel matched him in H2H. ARCHANGEL. Spidey dances around him. Yeah you'll get some writers that take creative liberty and push the envelope, but Wolverine was designed to take a tremendous amount of punishment, not AVOID it.

I was specifically referencing DD's hearing and sense of touch. Taste goes to Wolverine, quoting Uncanny #173 when he fainted after being poisoned - but the poison used was incredibly well-masked.

Never
And DD was hurt because he took the damage on PURPOSE. He was trying to DISTRACT Sabretooth and even said so. Need the exact quote?

Not agile enough to matter? LoL. Ever see Wolverine *consistently* bouncing off of flagstaffs, awnings, etc when jumping out of a window? No. What amazing feats of agility is Wolverine consistently characterized as doing? Wolverine's a tank, not a ballerina.

"Daredevil is a superb athlete and gymnast, the best in the Marvel Universe, possessing extraordinary agility, endurance, skill and balance. Because a person's sense of balance is linked with their sense of hearing (similar to the way that taste is linked with the sense of smell), Daredevil's superhuman hearing also grants him superhuman balance. He has been known to run across and even jump up and down on hydro wires. This 'super balance' enhances Daredevil's acrobatic skills beyond even what a highly skilled but sighted athlete would possess."

I don't buy that best in Marvel Universe - or even best on Marvel earth, for that matter. I think Beast should be better.

So much for "da knowledge." LoL.

jinzin
Originally posted by Never
Um, lol.

"could mentally drain life energy from another person into his own body, thereby killing that person, causing the victim's body to dissolve. It is not known what other mental powers Stick possessed."

Selene style. Do tell what good being impervious to pain does when your life essence is drained? None. And btw, I was referencing martial arts ability. Ogun > Stick...*sigh*

The hell?
Stick didn't even do that by himself... And he died from the result.
The "victim dissolving"? Yeah I bet that did hanve anything to do with the fact that he was fighting the HAND when he did it. no expression

Originally posted by Never
Actually you should read #238 again. Never paid much attention to the female; always assumed it was a child by appearance:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/thumb/7/71/Daredevil_238.jpg/300px-Daredevil_238.jpg
laughing out loud
Why should he read it again? He obviously understood the material he read?
You on the other hand.
So what drew you to the conclussion it was a child? Because you assumed such from COVER ART?
I certainly can't give you enough credit to assume you read the story of course, because of course if you had you would have probably thought the fact that Sabretooth brought a child to the sewers as a mate was odd, that her rack was just an artist flub, and that DD referencing her as "lady!" didn't make any sense... no expression

Originally posted by Never
Um, the only reason Sabretooth even touched DD was because he was *protecting* her. Once she was out of harm's way, what happened? Am free to provide quotes and accurate descriptions of the fight panels. DD CRUSHED Sabretooth. Sabretooth didn't even land another lick. Sabretooth tackeled and hit DD 4 times in that fight without DD protecting anyone.
And DD crushed Sabretooth? lol. He hit him twice after that and Sabretooth just got up and meandered off, DD couldn't even follow after him... DD even said earlier all he could do was make Sabretooth angry... This is again before backstory and several upgrades were even introduced to the character.

Originally posted by Never
Daredevil is NOT slower than Wolverine. Hand speed, kicks, punches, reflexes. Call that "quickness" as I generally use "fast" to describe straight line speed. Writers used to always reference Wolverine's additional weight as a result of the adamantium melded to his skeleton.. He might be, but the difference between the two wouldn't matter much either way.

Originally posted by Never
Yeah, DD's slow. LoL.

http://semanticdrift.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/daredevilfnf1.jpg

Yeah, DD's slow. LoL.

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villain/paladin/daredevil152.jpg no expression No one said DD was slow.


Originally posted by Never
Wolverine was NEVER originally conceived to be ultra-quick. Archangel matched him in H2H. ARCHANGEL. Spidey dances around him. Yeah you'll get some writers that take creative liberty and push the envelope, but Wolverine was designed to take a tremendous amount of punishment, not AVOID it. Is that why Hulk couldn't even touch Wolverine the first time they fought? Why Byrne stated that had he kept writing Logan he would have made him as strong and FAST, as Spiderman himself? Why years later Wolverine's speed was indeed a match for Spiderman? Why multiple references to his superhuman speed have been referenced since his incarnation?
Oh wait, I'm talking to the guy who said that Logan doesn't have speed cause you couldn't track a horsefly... erm
And Archangel never fought Logan except once. One instance in which Wolverine was battered, with a barely working healing factor, drugged, and forced to fight a mind controled Arky in a situation where he wasn't even trying to hurt Warren.
Spiderman's never danced circles around Archangel. He did good against Angel back when he was a rookie but there's a world of difference between Angel and his Apocyliptic counterpart.

Originally posted by Never
And DD was hurt because he took the damage on PURPOSE. He was trying to DISTRACT Sabretooth and even said so. Need the exact quote? Actually yes, I'd like one seeing how DD never said that. Sabes got some jumps on him from behind but none of them were DD taking punishment on purpose he even implied that's the last thing he wanted because if Creed got his hands on DD he'd kill him.

Originally posted by Never
Not agile enough to matter? LoL. Ever see Wolverine *consistently* bouncing off of flagstaffs, awnings, etc when jumping out of a window? No. What amazing feats of agility is Wolverine consistently characterized as doing? Wolverine's a tank, not a ballerina. Exactly. He doesn't need to use his agility all that often. Doesn't mean he fails when he TRIES which is a big difference.

Originally posted by Never
So much for "da knowledge." LoL. Clearly, as when someone produces facts in front of your face you're more than completely willing to totally discard them for your own interpretations of how the world works, or your own comic book panels/stories/etc that never took place outside of your own delusions.


"That's not a girl it's a child"
"Daredevil CRUSHED Sabretooth"
"Horseflies are too fast for me to see, Wolverine's slow"
"You can't train yourself to better your reflexes"


yikes... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Creshosk
Originally posted by jinzin
And Archangel never fought Logan except once. One instance in which Wolverine was battered, with a barely working healing factor, drugged, and forced to fight a mind controled Arky in a situation where he wasn't even trying to hurt Warren. If by barely working you mean, completely not present due to Wipeout removing his powers... then yes.

Just read that one recently too. Been going over several Jubilee related comics. and I found an odd one in a Wolverine Comic I don't understand... Its during the arc with the hunter in the darkness where Sabes is claiming to be Wolvie's father, and Deathstirke it there.

One frame has a guy in a crowd say "That's a familiar looking costume, but aren't you supposed to be dead?" To jubilee... no expression

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
"could mentally drain life energy from another person into his own body, thereby killing that person, causing the victim's body to dissolve. It is not known what other mental powers Stick possessed."


An ability that killed him and he had help with when it was preformed. Hurray? confused

... and why do you always quote bios? Stop.

Originally posted by Never
Selene style. Do tell what good being impervious to pain does when your life essence is drained? None. And btw, I was referencing martial arts ability. Ogun > Stick...*sigh*


Ogun doesn't have a corporeal form, which makes Sticks ability useless... even if he could do it on his own with out it killing him.

But since you where just talking skill: Ogun trashed a horde of ninja easily in the span of a few seconds. Stick kamikaze'd himself with Shaft to kill - what? - two score of hand ninja? Ogun is more skilled than Stick. After all Ogun was the equal of Miyamoto Musashi 400 years ago.

Originally posted by Never
Um, the only reason Sabretooth even touched DD was because he was *protecting* her. Once she was out of harm's way, what happened? Am free to provide quotes and accurate descriptions of the fight panels. DD CRUSHED Sabretooth. Sabretooth didn't even land another lick.


...

The fight started before they where anywhere near the woman. They fight started on a roof top and moved to that location by happenstance (read: plot device). Sabretooth landed several hits on Daredevil before they got to where the girl was being held. He even grappled with him... and for some reason... while he was digging his claws into Matt's chest... decided NOT to eviscerate him... or tear out his throat. Sabretooth left of his own volition after Matt called him out on his motivation. Sabretooth was fine. Matt was too injured to after him. That was Sabretooth three upgrades ago and pre anything resembling character development.

Originally posted by Never
Daredevil is NOT slower than Wolverine. Hand speed, kicks, punches, reflexes. Call that "quickness" as I generally use "fast" to describe straight line speed. Writers used to always reference Wolverine's additional weight as a result of the adamantium melded to his skeleton.


...

Wolverine is faster than Daredevil anyway you want to look at it. Land speed. Reflexes. Combat speed. Straight line speed. Wolverine is just plan faster than Matt.

'Nuff Said.

Originally posted by Never
Yeah, DD's slow. LoL.

http://semanticdrift.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/daredevilfnf1.jpg

Yeah, DD's slow. LoL.

http://www.geocities.com/marvel_villain/paladin/daredevil152.jpg


Being slower than Wolverine doesn't translated into being slow.

...

Nice examples by the way. A cover and like the most low key speed feat preformed by any street level hero. Did you try to find the most unimpressive examples you possible could, or did it just happen that way?

Originally posted by Never
Wolverine was NEVER originally conceived to be ultra-quick. Archangel matched him in H2H. ARCHANGEL. Spidey dances around him. Yeah you'll get some writers that take creative liberty and push the envelope, but Wolverine was designed to take a tremendous amount of punishment, not AVOID it.


confused

Wolverine was originally intented to by a mirror image of Spider-man physically with claws instead of webbing and heightened senses in the place of the spider-sense. He was bouncing around the Hulk like a jack rabbit in his first appearance.

...

I see you aren't very knowledgeable in x-men lore, but don't worry because I'm happy to educate. At the time in which Wolverine "fought" Archangel, Logan was in the worst shape of his life. For years after he was Crucified by Pierce and the Reavers (Uncanny 244) Wolverine was in horrific shape. In fact in Uncanny X-Men 275 (three issues after the Wolverine vs. Archangel "fight" you referenced) Wolverine was described as "a shadow of his former self... life force remains sustained solely by an indomitable will"

And Archangel is superhuman across the board, his feathers sent a shock to the nervous system what would instant;y end the fight against someone with out massive superhuman durability or a healing factor... and they where tethered together for the fight.

Originally posted by Never
I was specifically referencing DD's hearing and sense of touch. Taste goes to Wolverine, quoting Uncanny #173 when he fainted after being poisoned - but the poison used was incredibly well-masked.

Wolverine also has a superhuman sense of touch. He stated he can feel each individual bead of sweat in every pore on his body. DD has an advantage in hearing, but it isn't a huge gab.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
And DD was hurt because he took the damage on PURPOSE. He was trying to DISTRACT Sabretooth and even said so. Need the exact quote?


It will be difficult since that quote doesn't exist...

Originally posted by Never
Not agile enough to matter? LoL. Ever see Wolverine *consistently* bouncing off of flagstaffs, awnings, etc when jumping out of a window? No. What amazing feats of agility is Wolverine consistently characterized as doing? Wolverine's a tank, not a ballerina.


Wolverine's kept up with both Matt and DD while they run the thief's highway, and he's shown himself quite sufficient at it during his solo adventures in Madripoor. He has plenty of agility feats. He doesn't do them as consistently as Daredevil because he Logan jumps form the roof of a ten story building... he'll be fine. He also tends to use a form of transportation that isn't a grapple line, which severally limits the moments that call for the agility feats you mentioned... but it doesn't change the fact that he has them.

Originally posted by Never
"Daredevil is a superb athlete and gymnast, the best in the Marvel Universe, possessing extraordinary agility, endurance, skill and balance. Because a person's sense of balance is linked with their sense of hearing (similar to the way that taste is linked with the sense of smell), Daredevil's superhuman hearing also grants him superhuman balance. He has been known to run across and even jump up and down on hydro wires. This 'super balance' enhances Daredevil's acrobatic skills beyond even what a highly skilled but sighted athlete would possess."



Another quote from a bio... awesome...

roll eyes (sarcastic)

jrodslam
DD for the win.

carver9
Wolverine 8/10

Daredevil1
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...

...

...

Wolverine was trained by Ogun A man so skilled that by nature of that skill alone developed a mastery over the human body that made him immortal and practically impervious to pain. He survived for hundreds of years with out aging a day, could be run through by a sword with out any ill effect and could kill a water Buffalo with a casual open hand slap. He could read minds and transfer bodies. He developed a training method that aloud him to impart years of knowledge to his students in days if not hours. Ogun was the very reason that Stick sent Elektra to retrain Wolverine after he lost his humanity.

Ogun > Stick

I think you should read 238 again. There was never a point when the "child" (who was a lady by the way) was safe and Daredevil "thrashed" Sabretooth. Sabretooth slit the girl's throat and DD got mad, tackled him from behind and hit Vic twice. Matt asked Creed why he did it, Creed basically said he could help himself and then left of his own volition... and Matt was too injured to go after him. When the fight ended DD was trashed, his costume was torn to shred and he was too injured to continue fighting, while Sabretooth on the other hand was fine; and that was three upgrades ago and before any of his back story was developed.

Daredevil is slower than Wolverine. Not more agile enough to matter. By his own admission has sense inferior to Wolverine.

EDIT: Sense of smell anyway.




I wouldn't go that far to say he's better then Stick. First of all he lives a lot and even comes back. But Stick has shown to come back too.

Ogun has lived a long time but experience doesn't always make the greatest fighter on earth it helps. But not necessarily greater as Thor has more experience then most but doesn't mean he's as good as Daredevil.

Also Ogun mentioned he mastered the the 13 styles. Which is impressive Batman himself has stated to master more IIRC.

And last he stalemated Logan and in the end Logan defeated him. In one of there bouts were Logan gave him praise for being capable of bringing down a water buffalo. Logan goes into bezerker rage and Ogun again admits defeat in that fight.

Daredevil has also stalemated Logan to even put him down.

jinzin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I wouldn't go that far to say he's better then Stick. First of all he lives a lot and even comes back. But Stick has shown to come back too. Are you referring to his reincarnation?

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Also Ogun mentioned he mastered the the 13 styles. Which is impressive Batman himself has stated to master more IIRC. I believe it was a reference to 13 specific styles that were thought gone from the face of the planet on top of everything ele he knew.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
And last he stalemated Logan and in the end Logan defeated him. In one of there bouts were Logan gave him praise for being capable of bringing down a water buffalo. Logan goes into bezerker rage and Ogun again admits defeat in that fight.
erm
Logan's a reincarnated warrior spirit that's been around since before Ogun even existed. When he slips into a berserker rage, it's the culmination of not only his natural speed, strength, and healing factor all amplified far past their typical levels... not only his skill and tempered knowledge.... but the additional muscle memory and natural instincts of dozens of lives for thousands of years lived.

Logan beating Ogun when in a berserker rage doesn't detract from Oguns skill, as Logan transcends from a near peak human with great fighting ability prone to CIS into a nearly unstopable, clearly superhuman wrecking ball.
Stick, nor DD, nor Iron Fist would fair much better against a berserkered Wolverine, but that doesn't detract from their skill.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Daredevil has also stalemated Logan to even put him down. He only managed to hold Logan off in EOTS which has already been gone over.
The only time DD was superior to a healthy Logan was in an Ennis story... Ennis... erm

Phantom Zone
Right so were saying that Wolverine is better than Stick?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Yeah, but Thanos backhanded Cap unconscious during one of his patronizing speeches. That's a feat in a league of its own. smoke





I never said he was the friggin' Hulk's equal or anything of the sort. He definitely ain't on human level though. That adamantium, being as tough and dense as it is, has to weigh a freakin' ton. No, not literally, Zone. I don't buy it when Marvel's stats bill Wolverine at 300lbs with the adamantium-- it just sounds like a thrown out number. It's not like he's being anchored down by it, but it does weigh him down. Try running around with a backpack full of books. Sure, you can do it just fine, but you're not gonna be nearly as fast.

All this time, Wolverine's shown some impressive displays of strength WHILE having to lug around the extra weight from his skeleton (the elevator feat comes to mind). That should say a lot about his strength.

I'm pretty sure Jinzin's got a few examples of each in his Wolverine Respect thread... (No charge for the plug, Jinzin.) Remember, Logan's been without both for a while after Magneto ripped the adamantium out of him, Alf.

Let's say you're right, though....

*pause for uproar of laughter*

... Wolverine is still more skilled than Daredevil, and would still likely get a speed increase.

Anyway Wolverine wins. I remembered that he actually still has enhanced reflexes. If he gets used to not having a Hf then he wins.

Don't agree about hiim getting a speed advtange but the point is moot.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Right so were saying that Wolverine is better than Stick?


Doubt full plus Logan defeated Ogun as Ogun admitted to it. Logan never has defeated DD.

And no the getting him in a nelson is not a "defeat".

carver9
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Doubt full plus Logan defeated Ogun as Ogun admitted to it. Logan never has defeated DD.

And no the getting him in a nelson is not a "defeat".

Actually it is a defeat since he was unable to get out of it until wolverine let him out. The key word is let.

jinzin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Doubt full plus Logan defeated Ogun as Ogun admitted to it. Logan never has defeated DD.

And no the getting him in a nelson is not a "defeat".

It's certainly a superior showing.

In that same regard Wolverine has never berserkered out on Daredevil before.

And on top of that Ogun's never been as easily handled before.

No one's saying Wolverine>Stick in martial prowess, but to suggest DD>Ogun is laughable.

Wavemaninawe
Daredevil knocks single bullets back at shooters and dodges full auto fire.

How exactly is Wolverine faster than him?

carver9
Originally posted by Wavemaninawe
Daredevil knocks single bullets back at shooters and dodges full auto fire.

How exactly is Wolverine faster than him?

because wolverine has dodge point blank attacks coming from cyclops eyes. Do the math. It take superhuman speed to pull that one feat off alone.

jrodslam
In regards to Wolvie getting DD in a full nelson, i cant really count is as a Wolvie "victory". However, i will say that eventhough he did have DD in the hold, DD wasnt thinking straight due to his connection with typhoid. Wolvie even stated that. Something like "Men cant think straight when they get around her....". Something like that.

jrodslam
DD has also dodged a blast from Cyke. Its really amazing the stuff DD has dodged over the years. I honestly dont see Wolvie as being faster than DD in a fight. Id almost bet the farm that it would be much harder for Wolvie to hit DD than vise versa. Now before anyone says "But wolvie cant hit him cause of the claws!!!", im talking about pure h2h. No claws. Just my opinion.

carver9
Originally posted by jrodslam
DD has also dodged a blast from Cyke. Its really amazing the stuff DD has dodged over the years. I honestly dont see Wolvie as being faster than DD in a fight. Id almost bet the farm that it would be much harder for Wolvie to hit DD than vise versa. Now before anyone says "But wolvie cant hit him cause of the claws!!!", im talking about pure h2h. No claws. Just my opinion.

Wolverine have more high end speed feats then dd. Theres nothing on panel proving that dd is faster or even comparable to wolverine with speed but speed isnt the deciding factor in this fight because both will be hitting each other. This fight is going to be based off skill and in that dept wolverine would get a good majority.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by jinzin
It's certainly a superior showing.

In that same regard Wolverine has never berserkered out on Daredevil before.

And on top of that Ogun's never been as easily handled before.

No one's saying Wolverine>Stick in martial prowess, but to suggest DD>Ogun is laughable.



Considering he held his own against a Logan that defeated Thing and Namor. I find that irrelevant. Also Ogun was lucky in the fight that Wolverine beated him handily in beserk he didn't use his claws. Logan was using his claws on DD.

Didn't suggest DD is greater then Ogun. Just that for the circumstances he looks the better as in Ogun hasn't proven to be greater then Stick was my point.

jrodslam
Originally posted by carver9
Wolverine have more high end speed feats then dd. Theres nothing on panel proving that dd is faster or even comparable to wolverine with speed but speed isnt the deciding factor in this fight because both will be hitting each other. This fight is going to be based off skill and in that dept wolverine would get a good majority.

Does he? It can be argued. Nothin on panel proving that DD is even comparable? Maybe Wolvie saying "Hes fast. Ill give him that.". Speed IS a deciding factor, because the less you get hit, the better for you. Yea, im sure they will be hitting each other, but its a known that DD is hard to hit. Even by ppl with superhuman speed. Yea this fight would be based off skill, however speed and agility also play a huge factor.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I wouldn't go that far to say he's better then Stick. First of all he lives a lot and even comes back. But Stick has shown to come back too.



Stick fought a group of Hand Ninja with Shaft, Stone, Daredevil and Blackwidow and he had to pull a kamikaze with Shaft) to win the encounter. Ogun solo'd a comparable number of assailants in a few seconds without sustaining any injury.

They are both extremely skilled, but Ogun is clearly superior IMO.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Ogun has lived a long time but experience doesn't always make the greatest fighter on earth it helps. But not necessarily greater as Thor has more experience then most but doesn't mean he's as good as Daredevil.


True enough.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Also Ogun mentioned he mastered the the 13 styles. Which is impressive Batman himself has stated to master more IIRC.


It's a pretty ambiguous statement. He says he is a master of thirteen styles but what does that mean? Say he is a master of kenjutsu (which he is), well okay, that's one style... but how many different schools of kenjutsu are there and how many is Ogun proficient in? Same thing with styles like jujutsu, karate, taekwon-do and kung-fu, all of which encompass many different styles/schools in amongst themselves. Or maybe he is a super awesome grandmaster in thirteen styles and only counts those. Who knows?

Batman was referenced as having knowledge of 127 styles... we don't know how many he mastered.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
And last he stalemated Logan and in the end Logan defeated him. In one of there bouts were Logan gave him praise for being capable of bringing down a water buffalo. Logan goes into bezerker rage and Ogun again admits defeat in that fight.


Ogun was trying to teach Wolverine control and restraint. I got the impression that losing to Berserk Wolverine was the whole goal of the training exercises. He was trying to teach Wolverine to walk "the swords edge."

... Berserk Wolverine is a force of nature anyways.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Daredevil has also stalemated Logan to even put him down.

I'd address this again but you'll just ignore everything I say again. So instead I'll just say this: No.

carver9
Thats not that impressive if you think about it, namor and thing are bricks whereas daredevil is a martial artist.



Ogun and daredevil are on completely different pages when it comes to skill and martial arts. Lets put it like this, if wolverine was trained by daredevil instead of ogun, wolverine wont be close to where he is now in marvel and thats one of the best martial artist on the planet.



Ogun has mastered fighting styles that stick might not ever even heard of. He was already versed in almost every fighting style on the planet but he then began to learn styles that was forgotten by men and mastered them. He would walk over stick if they fought.

Wavemaninawe
Originally posted by carver9
because wolverine has dodge point blank attacks coming from cyclops eyes. Do the math. It take superhuman speed to pull that one feat off alone.

Storm has done that too.

When was it ever stated that Cyke's optic blasts are faster than bullets?


I'm new here so I'm not entirely familiar with the rulebook of this place. At CBR where I usually hang out there is a rule that in order for someone to be considered 'bullet timer', they have to be fast enough to respond after the bullet leaves the barrel of a gun. It has to be blatantly obvious too. Anything else is considered 'aim dodging'.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Wavemaninawe
When was it ever stated that Cyke's optic blasts are faster than bullets?


When it was stated they move at light speed?

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When it was stated they move at light speed?

Who mentioned anything about light speed?

Creshosk
Originally posted by jrodslam
Who mentioned anything about light speed?
Try to keep up:

Originally posted by carver9
because wolverine has dodge point blank attacks coming from cyclops eyes.
Originally posted by Wavemaninawe
When was it ever stated that Cyke's optic blasts are faster than bullets?
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
When it was stated they move at light speed?

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8887/cyclopsspeedoflightlb1.jpg

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by jrodslam
Who mentioned anything about light speed?

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8887/cyclopsspeedoflightlb1.jpg

jrodslam
Originally posted by Creshosk
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8887/cyclopsspeedoflightlb1.jpg

Lol. Wow. Thanks Cresh, but we all know thats bull. Cykes optic blasts travel at lgiht speed?

But if Wolvie is faster than light, then DD is as well, lol.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by jrodslam
Lol. Wow. Thanks Cresh, but we all know thats bull. Cykes optic blasts travel at lgiht speed?

But if Wolvie is faster than light, then DD is as well, lol.

confused

...

You don't need to be faster than light to avoid the optic blasts, you need to be faster than Cyclops.

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
confused

...

You don't need to be faster than light to avoid the optic blasts, you need to be faster than Cyclops.

What the f**k?

So then what was the point of Cykes optic blasts even being mentioned? Not saying that it was you who brought it up. Id have no doubts that both Wolvie and DD are faster than Cyke. Optic blasts shouldnt even be in this discussion.

Moving on......

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by jrodslam
What the f**k?

So then what was the point of Cykes optic blasts even being mentioned? Not saying that it was you who brought it up. Id have no doubts that both Wolvie and DD are faster than Cyke. Optic blasts shouldnt even be in this discussion.

Moving on......

I don't know, I didn't bring it up...

jrodslam
Originally posted by Creshosk
Try to keep up:

I mean, i thought i was keeping up.

Again, there was no mention of light speed prior to the scan being posted. At least not that i saw. If so, can you post that statement re: lightspeed? I never knew Cykes optic blasts were considered as such hence asking the question.erm

Never
Wolverine is not one of the best martial artists on the planet. Period. I mean...Silver Samurai is getting in your butt? Elektra is written as puncturing both of your lungs and leaving you for dead - and walking away without a scratch (save the one she LET him get to lure him in - and he admitted this)? Yeah RIGHT.

Love how fanatics try to twist things such as "Wolverine has dodged point blank attacks." You don't DODGE point blank attacks (unless you're Flash, Superman, etc). You MOVE before he fires. That's like suggesting that one can sit in front of a gun - 1 inch from your chest - and DODGE the bullet AFTER it's fired. Spiderman can *dodge* a bullet after it's fired IF HE'S FAR ENOUGH AWAY (Agent Smith style). You think Wolverine can too?

WRONG.

Wolverine MOVED before Cyclops let loose the blast. He didn't DODGE it AFTER Cyclops fired it. Fat difference.

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know, I didn't bring it up...

Lol. I know. Thats whats i was saying.

My post above goes more into that i guess.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
Wolverine is not one of the best martial artists on the planet. Period.

They have a wireless internet connection at the bridge you live under?

Never
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They have a wireless internet connection at the bridge you live under?

Do they have requisite medical facilities in the country you were lobotomized in? Do explain his lackluster showing against that martial arts heavyweight, Silver Samurai?

Wolverine fan here. I'm not a fanboy, though.

Ever heard of ComiXforums? Marvel and DC writers pass through there. That's where we asked Dan Jurgens about Superman vs Thor (those on KMC were TRYING to tell me Superman was more powerful. WRONG).

Unless, of course, you think you know more than the writers who admit that occasionally A writer will take creative liberty? Like when they wanted Wolverine to be equal in strength to Spiderman?

Tsk

To wit, Dan Jurgens:

Posted by Dan Jurgens on Monday, February 23 2004 at 20:11:06 GMT

After numerous e-mails from friends pointing to a minor firestorm of sorts regarding my comments relating to the power levels of Thor and Superman, I thought some clarity might help.

Yes, in the exchange, I was asked if Superman was a million times more powerful than Thor. I said yes.

I also chuckled as I said it, a very important part of the response that did not translate into print. I don't blame Rich as he gave me the chance to edit the interview. Quite frankly, it never occurred to me that anyone would seriously think that statement was an accurate representation of my belief on the matter.

So... we screwed up.

Superman is NOT a million times more powerful than Thor. In my book, he is probably not even twice as powerful as Thor. Superman has more expansive powers than Thor, IMO, thanks to his vision powers, etc.

I also think they fight quite differently. Thor tends to be more of a brawny reactionary type, while Superman probably fights with a more strategic approach. Thor is more likely to cut loose with the full measure of his powers as he does not have the "dampers" on that power that Superman was raised with. Both qualities can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the circumstances.

If they fought ten times, neither would win all ten, or even seven, eight or nine battles, for that matter. Not anymore than the Miami Dolphins would beat the Jets ten games out of ten.

I apologize for any confusion.

DJ"

And what do you know. I ALWAYS said Superman doesn't just speedblitz people, he THINKS it through first. And a writer agreed? Who would have thunk it.

But I digress...

Never
And let's examine this further. One of the best on the planet? I'll let you qualify that statement first by saying Top 5, Top 3...whatever.

We did this in 2004 on this forum already. Anyway...

So you're talking (in NO order) Wolverine is tops - or in COMPANY with the epitome - among:

Batroc, Black Widow, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Elektra, Bullseye, Stick, Stone, Claw, Star, Ogun, Black Panther, Lady Deathstrike, KARNAK, Gamora (nope, she's not on the planet. seeing if people are playing attention), Blade, Carmilla Black, Captain America...

Let's stop there.

Off of the TOP, he's NOT better than Karnak, Black Panther, Shang Chi, Elektra, Iron Fist, Stick. Strictly martial arts abilities. Not necessarily in Hand to Hand, because if so, you drop in names like Black Widow, Captain America, and Daredevil.

Nice standup routine you've got going on.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
Do they have requisite medical facilities in the country you were lobotomized in?


You could have just said "No, I'm using the library computer." stick out tongue

And the practice of giving lobotomies was discontinued - what - thirty years ago? You might want to update your insults.

Originally posted by Never
Do explain his lackluster showing against that martial arts heavyweight, Silver Samurai?


Sarcasm.. awesome...

Silver Samurai is one of the most skilled martial artists on Marvel Earth. He has two shotted Spider-man before, and even in his first appearance he had DD on the run for the entirety of their exchange. Kenuichio stomped Baymax (a cyborg brick with vast superhuman strength who was programed with every martial art Hiro could find) into the ground with his martial arts abilities. Silver Samurai IS a martial art heavyweight.

... and Wolverine doesn't have any lack luster performances against Kenuichio; in fact he has soundly embarrassed him almost every time they've fought. You have anything else?

Originally posted by Never
Ever heard of ComiXforums? Marvel and DC writers pass through there. That's where we asked Dan Jurgens about Superman vs Thor (those on KMC were TRYING to tell me Superman was more powerful. WRONG).

Unless, of course, you think you know more than the writers who admit that occasionally A writer will take creative liberty? Like when they wanted Wolverine to be equal in strength to Spiderman?

Tsk

To wit, Dan Jurgens:

Posted by Dan Jurgens on Monday, February 23 2004 at 20:11:06 GMT

After numerous e-mails from friends pointing to a minor firestorm of sorts regarding my comments relating to the power levels of Thor and Superman, I thought some clarity might help.

Yes, in the exchange, I was asked if Superman was a million times more powerful than Thor. I said yes.

I also chuckled as I said it, a very important part of the response that did not translate into print. I don't blame Rich as he gave me the chance to edit the interview. Quite frankly, it never occurred to me that anyone would seriously think that statement was an accurate representation of my belief on the matter.

So... we screwed up.

Superman is NOT a million times more powerful than Thor. In my book, he is probably not even twice as powerful as Thor. Superman has more expansive powers than Thor, IMO, thanks to his vision powers, etc.

I also think they fight quite differently. Thor tends to be more of a brawny reactionary type, while Superman probably fights with a more strategic approach. Thor is more likely to cut loose with the full measure of his powers as he does not have the "dampers" on that power that Superman was raised with. Both qualities can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the circumstances.

If they fought ten times, neither would win all ten, or even seven, eight or nine battles, for that matter. Not anymore than the Miami Dolphins would beat the Jets ten games out of ten.

I apologize for any confusion.

DJ"

And what do you know. I ALWAYS said Superman doesn't just speedblitz people, he THINKS it through first. And a writer agreed? Who would have thunk it.

But I digress...

I'm not really sure what this has do with anything...

On KMC you have fans that have read every single comic book appearance a character has ever had. Do these super-fans know more about the character than a writer? Yes. It's not even up for debate. A writer doesn't need to have read everything a character has ever done to write efficiently... in fact the history of a character isn't nearly as important as the writer's vision of said character. That's why writers pick and choose which pieces of a character's history they want to acknowledge.

Plus I'm sure you can find a writer that has the exact opposite opinion. Writers - being human - all have different views on what a character is capable of.

...

and Thor > Superman

Raoul
its true, that superman thinks before blitzing... he thinks 'i'm going to blitz this guy' and then he blitzes them...

it still happens a hell of alot faster than most people can react to...

also, jurgens is one of the foremost post crisis superman writers... he was referencing his superman, i'd imagine...

and superman > thor... stick out tongue

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Silver Samurai is one of the most skilled martial artists on Marvel Earth. He has two shotted Spider-man before, and even in his first appearance he had DD on the run for the entirety of their exchange.

Actually, when he first encountered DD, Matt was up for a long period of tire without any sleep. He was fatigued and couldnt do his 100%, however SS was still struggling against him. In the 2nd encounter, DD was trying to rescue, so after his stun on SS, he continued with the attempted rescue. SS was hardly showing his martial arts skills when he encountered DD.

Never
Beheading was outdated how long? Yet those in Iraq still use it as a very effective terrorism technique.

Insert quarter, try again.

Silver Samurai is a flat out joke. Is Spiderman a martial artist? No. Show me when Samurai 2 shots Karnak, Black Panther, Elektra. It will never happen.

Is Daredevil a martial artist non pareil? NO. He combines martial arts with other techniques which makes his fighting style formidable. Sorry, dropping those two names in NO way substantiates your claim.

Guarantee you that YOU have not read every comic that Wolverine has appeared in. To suggest that fans know more about a character than a writer is laughable at best - and being cognizant of appearances, feats (actual or exaggerated), et cetera does not constitute character knowledge per se.

Just like Superman speed blitzed Thor. Right Raul? LoL.

Thanks for the assist jrod. Amazing how people forget to add these little tidbits that clarify things - except when it would undermine their argument, of course.

Raoul
Originally posted by Never
Just like Superman speed blitzed Thor. Right Raul? LoL.

...what?

DestinyGuy678
Originally posted by Creshosk
So you see nothing wrong with DD putting wolverine down, where being incinerated and punched by the hulk failed?

And you have the nerve to accuse other's of bias Daredevil1? ...liking a character doesnt make them biased, darecevil1 hasnt shown himself to have a bias either, he seems very knowledgeable

Never
Originally posted by Raoul
its true, that superman thinks before blitzing... he thinks 'i'm going to blitz this guy' and then he blitzes them...

Just like, in JLA vs Avengers, SUPERMAN SPEEDBLITZED THOR, RIGHT RAOUL?

DestinyGuy678
Originally posted by Creshosk
What the f**k?
If wolverine was in control at the time he would have killed the hand and not attacked DD. ...by control Imean not fighting back against the other voice

Creshosk
Originally posted by DestinyGuy678
...liking a character doesnt make them biased, darecevil1 hasnt shown himself to have a bias either, he seems very knowledgeable laughing

Raoul
Originally posted by Never
Just like, in JLA vs Avengers, SUPERMAN SPEEDBLITZED THOR, RIGHT RAOUL?

so the one time he doesnt blitz another hero means what, exactly, when held up against all his other blitzing feats?

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
And let's examine this further. One of the best on the planet? I'll let you qualify that statement first by saying Top 5, Top 3...whatever.


Top three

Wolverine, Cap, Elektra: All pretty much equal

This is of course ignoring ubre martial artists who's skill is border line superhuman like the Mandarin, Temugin, Stick and Ogun.

Originally posted by Never
Batroc, Black Widow, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Elektra, Bullseye, Stick, Stone, Claw, Star, Ogun, Black Panther, Lady Deathstrike, KARNAK, Gamora (nope, she's not on the planet. seeing if people are playing attention), Blade, Carmilla Black, Captain America...


... that's not a very good list.

Batroc, Black Widow, Blade and the chick Scorpion? Seriously?

Silver Samurai is a better martial artist than most on the list. Kitty Pride is better than the four listed above. What about Deadpool? Cat isn't on the list and neither is Davos? What about Mr. X? What about Taskmaster? Killmonger? Red Lotus? Viper? Yuriko? Shigen? The Mandarin? Temugin? X-23? Zaran? The Foreigner?

Karnak lives on the moon. Gamora travels the galaxy.

Originally posted by Never
Off of the TOP, he's NOT better than Karnak, Black Panther, Shang Chi, Elektra, Iron Fist, Stick. Strictly martial arts abilities. Not necessarily in Hand to Hand, because if so, you drop in names like Black Widow, Captain America, and Daredevil.


He's better than everyone you listed with the exception of Stick and Elektra (who is more or less = Wolverine).

Starscream M
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Top three

Wolverine, Cap, Elektra: All pretty much equal

Logan has not really demonstrated fighting skills above Daredevil or current Iron Fist.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Raoul
so the one time he doesnt blitz another hero means what, exactly, when held up against all his other blitzing feats? Doesn't matter... Superman beats Wonder Woman beats Surtur with the Twilight Sword beats Thor... peaches

Raoul
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Doesn't matter... Superman beats Wonder Woman beats Surtur with the Twilight Sword beats Thor... peaches

laughing out loud

jrodslam
Holey smokes! xmarks!

xmarksthespot
Jiminy jillickers! jrod!

carver9
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Doesn't matter... Superman beats Wonder Woman beats Surtur with the Twilight Sword beats Thor... peaches

I agree, except him beating thor whos overrall more powerful then him by quite a bit.

Never
Originally posted by Raoul
so the one time he doesnt blitz another hero means what, exactly, when held up against all his other blitzing feats?

Did he blitz The Shaggy Man in either of the um...what, 4-5 fights in JLA?

Did he blitz Asmodel? Did he blitz Magog? Did he blitz Justice League Alpha? Did he blitz Doomsday? Did he blitz the White Martians? Did he blitz General Eiling? The hard light holograms that Dr. Mirror cranked out?

(hint: each answer begins with a "N"wink

To the other poster:

Apparently you missed the words "let's stop there." I got tired of typing and that list was sufficient, considering Wolverine isn't even top 5 in THAT list.

Karnak is Marvel Earth. He's from Attilan. Recently got shifted to the moon, but he's FROM Attilan in the North Atlantic.

Clearly you did not see that parenthetical digression with respect to Gamora.

He's not top 3. Wolverine is not equal to Elektra considering the times she completely utterly dominated him. Cap in H2H would easily stymie Wolverine. Comic book proof is against you.

There is no way under Rosie O'Donnels greasy chesticles that Cap is EQUAL to Stick in martial arts. That comment alone invalidates your entire argument. That's flat out hilarious.

Agree to disagree.

carver9
Originally posted by Starscream M
Logan has not really demonstrated fighting skills above Daredevil or current Iron Fist.

Hes demonstrated it plenty of times when he beat captain america and went fist 2 fist with him. When he stalemated or hung with elektra, beat ogun, silver samurai, had bp dead to rights. He has faced the best and could have killed them.

Starscream M
Originally posted by carver9
Hes demonstrated it plenty of times when he beat captain america and went fist 2 fist with him. When he stalemated or hung with elektra, beat ogun, silver samurai, had bp dead to rights. He has faced the best and could have killed them. logan beating cap hardly demonstrates he is a superior fighter

logan has adamantium skeleton and CRAZY healing factor, things that people more skilled can't really overcome

Raoul
Originally posted by Never
Did he blitz The Shaggy Man in either of the um...what, 4-5 fights in JLA?

Did he blitz Asmodel? Did he blitz Magog? Did he blitz Justice League Alpha? Did he blitz Doomsday? Did he blitz the White Martians? Did he blitz General Eiling?

(hint: each answer begins with a "N"wink

he has actually blitzed doomsday. and eiling (both he and wonder woman did). when did he fight magog? kingdom come doesnt count...

wasnt he superman blue fighting asmodel?

he has blitzed the elite. he has blitzed bizarro.

blitz doesnt always have to imply a ko.

carver9
Originally posted by Starscream M
logan beating cap hardly demonstrates he is a superior fighter

logan has adamantium skeleton and CRAZY healing factor, things that people more skilled can't really overcome

Thats not how he beat cap, every lick that cap landed wolverine land and end up kicking a blood clot in his leg. If cap was the better fighter he would dominate wolverine which has never happened on panel. Unless you think that if I had a healing factor I could dominate bruce lee in a fight. I would still get my ass kicked but in the end I would just last longer.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
Beheading was outdated how long? Yet those in Iraq still use it as a very effective terrorism technique.


And the relevance that has in Canada?

Originally posted by Never
Silver Samurai is a flat out joke. Is Spiderman a martial artist? No. Show me when Samurai 2 shots Karnak, Black Panther, Elektra. It will never happen.


roll eyes (sarcastic)

Why is Silver Samurai a joke? Because he is a Wolverine rogue and you are trying to discerdit Wolverine. You have no credibility.

Silver Samurai is an amazing martial artist. He isn't on the same level as Cap, Elektra and Logan but he isn't far behind. Is he going to two shot Elektra? No. She is faster and more skilled than he is and is a telepath. Could he two shot BP? Maybe. Karnak? Well... his lost to BP twice now, so maybe.

Originally posted by Never
Is Daredevil a martial artist non pareil? NO. He combines martial arts with other techniques which makes his fighting style formidable. Sorry, dropping those two names in NO way substantiates your claim.


Like what? Boxing? Because that is a martial art...

What two names... maybe you should learn to quote so I know what you are talking about?

Originally posted by Never
Guarantee you that YOU have not read every comic that Wolverine has appeared in. To suggest that fans know more about a character than a writer is laughable at best - and being cognizant of appearances, feats (actual or exaggerated), et cetera does not constitute character knowledge per se.


I can tell you off the top of my head all the Wolverine appearances I haven't read. Marvel Shadows and Light #3, the Charleston Chew promotional comics and the Four Issue mini from a few years ago when Iron-man gave Wolverine, Spider-man, Hulk and Ghost Rider giant robot armor. That's it.

Why is it laughable to say that fans know more than the writers do? Its true. Does being a baseball player mean you know more about baseball than a fanatical baseball fan? No. Do you think DC says "Hey you need to read every Superman issue before you can write a story about him," because they don't.

Originally posted by Never
Just like Superman speed blitzed Thor. Right Raul? LoL.

Thanks for the assist jrod. Amazing how people forget to add these little tidbits that clarify things - except when it would undermine their argument, of course.

I don't even know what you are talking about...

l2quote?

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
he has actually blitzed doomsday. and eiling (both he and wonder woman did). when did he fight magog? kingdom come doesnt count...

wasnt he superman blue fighting asmodel?

he has blitzed the elite. he has blitzed bizarro.

blitz doesnt always have to imply a ko.

I agree with this post. he does have the ability to blitz and can get the 1st lick off of a lot of people. The thing that is hard to believe is that when people say that he wont get touched in a fight when slower beings has done so. In a real fight between him and thor, superman would get a lick and thor will come back with one. In fantasy land superman would get a million punches before thor blinks his eye but we all know that this has never in superman entire comic history has happened. sad

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Starscream M
Logan has not really demonstrated fighting skills above Daredevil or current Iron Fist.

The only fight between Wolverine and Daredevil where both where at 100% had Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels. Daredevil or Ironfist ever done that to a top tier MA that blindsided them? No? They ever done that to a top tier MA period? No? Wolverine downed Shang-Chi in three panels. Have Daredevil or Ironfist ever done that to a top tier MA? No? Oh well.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
I agree with this post. he does have the ability to blitz and can get the 1st lick off of a lot of people. The thing that is hard to believe is that when people say that he wont get touched in a fight when slower beings has done so. In a real fight between him and thor, superman would get a lick and thor will come back with one. In fantasy land superman would get a million punches before thor blinks his eye but we all know that this has never in superman entire comic history has happened. sad

there are reasons why it doesnt happen... though a 'million' is a bit extreme... anyways, i want to get back on topic, i was just trying to right a wrong...

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Starscream M
logan beating cap hardly demonstrates he is a superior fighter

logan has adamantium skeleton and CRAZY healing factor, things that people more skilled can't really overcome

He was also beaten to hell before the fight even started. His healing factor was in the toilet. He was missing part of his soul. And still Cap need a plot device to end the fight... and the move Wolverine landed on Cap before the fight ended still put him down (that was skill by the way) and was serious enough that Cap need medical attention.

Starscream M
Originally posted by carver9
Thats not how he beat cap, every lick that cap landed wolverine land and end up kicking a blood clot in his leg. If cap was the better fighter he would dominate wolverine which has never happened on panel. Unless you think that if I had a healing factor I could dominate bruce lee in a fight. I would still get my ass kicked but in the end I would just last longer. I never said Logan wasn't a great fighter, just that he isn't a top 5 marvel fighter

if bruce lee fought chuck norris ( assuming bruce lee is somewhat better but not a whole lot better) and chuck had a super healing factor...guess what? bruce lee is gonna get his ass kicked

Starscream M
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only fight between Wolverine and Daredevil where both where at 100% had Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels. Daredevil or Ironfist ever done that to a top tier MA that blindsided them? No? They ever done that to a top tier MA period? No? Wolverine downed Shang-Chi in three panels. Have Daredevil or Ironfist ever done that to a top tier MA? No? Oh well. ummm news flash to srank...shang chi isn't a top tier MA, only you think that. he's actually a 2nd tier.

also DD has beaten logan with skills...ie chop to the throat nerves.

You give DD adamantium skeleton and HF and remove that from logan, you think logan can get any wins?

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Why is it laughable to say that fans know more than the writers do? Its true. Does being a baseball player mean you know more about baseball than a fanatical baseball fan? No. Do you think DC says "Hey you need to read every Superman issue before you can write a story about him," because they don't.

Honestly, i agree with you 110% on that one.

Thats often why some characters are often written with some insane powerup when a writer takes over, then the powerup is completely forgot about in 2 months. I can honestly say that i know more about Iceman, Daredevil, Omega Red, basically all my favorite characters that some writer who comes along today. Power and ability wise that is. Hell, maybe even origins. Thats why so many fans would get upset about a writer say writing Iceman and doesnt display the powers that hes capable.

With that srank, i do agree.

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only fight between Wolverine and Daredevil where both where at 100% had Daredevil in a full nelson in three panels. Daredevil or Ironfist ever done that to a top tier MA that blindsided them? No? They ever done that to a top tier MA period? No? Wolverine downed Shang-Chi in three panels. Have Daredevil or Ironfist ever done that to a top tier MA? No? Oh well.

Technically, DD wasnt at 100%.

As far as DD goes, hes downed Cap in 1 panel and downed Wolvie in less than 3 panels.

Starscream M
Originally posted by jrodslam
Honestly, i agree with you 110% on that one.

Thats often why some characters are often written with some insane powerup when a writer takes over, then the powerup is completely forgot about in 2 months. I can honestly say that i know more about Iceman, Daredevil, Omega Red, basically all my favorite characters that some writer who comes along today. Power and ability wise that is. Hell, maybe even origins. Thats why so many fans would get upset about a writer say writing Iceman and doesnt display the powers that hes capable.

With that srank, i do agree. I agree with both of you

the irony is that what writers (often times ill-informed and sometimes downright ignorant) put on comics then become the canon that KMCers hold so sacred

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Never
Apparently you missed the words "let's stop there." I got tired of typing and that list was sufficient, considering Wolverine isn't even top 5 in THAT list.


Quote damn it! It's easy, even a troll like you can do it. HIT THE DAMN QUOTE OPTION!

Wolverine is easily in the top three of that list.

Originally posted by Never
Karnak is Marvel Earth. He's from Attilan. Recently got shifted to the moon, but he's FROM Attilan in the North Atlantic.


And now he lives on the moon, which isn't earth.

Who cares though, he can't even beat Black Panther, Logan would rail through him.

Originally posted by Never
Clearly you did not see that parenthetical digression with respect to Gamora.


I saw it. I though you wanted people to acknowledge she wasn't on earth...

And Wolverine beat her twice (or maybe it was the same fight from two different perspectives) during Infinity Crusade. He also beat her in Infinity War, with the help of Strong Guy and Vindicator.

Originally posted by Never
He's not top 3. Wolverine is not equal to Elektra considering the times she completely utterly dominated him. Cap in H2H would easily stymie Wolverine. Comic book proof is against you.


roll eyes (sarcastic)

When he lost all his martial art skill during his regression to animal Wolverine? Or in EotS when he was mind controlled, missing part of his soul, she took him by surprise while he was already in combat and he was being kept alive by live support moments earlier? Yeah... great examples.

Wolverine would take Cap in h2h. There is no comic proof otherwise IN FACT any evidence pointing to one being superior leans in Wolverine's favour.

Originally posted by Never
There is no way under Rosie O'Donnels greasy chesticles that Cap is EQUAL to Stick in martial arts. That comment alone invalidates your entire argument. That's flat out hilarious.


Which is why I said...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Top three

Wolverine, Cap, Elektra: All pretty much equal

This is of course ignoring ubre martial artists who's skill is border line superhuman like the Mandarin, Temugin, Stick and Ogun.


...

confused

Raoul
Originally posted by jrodslam
Honestly, i agree with you 110% on that one.

Thats often why some characters are often written with some insane powerup when a writer takes over, then the powerup is completely forgot about in 2 months. I can honestly say that i know more about Iceman, Daredevil, Omega Red, basically all my favorite characters that some writer who comes along today. Power and ability wise that is. Hell, maybe even origins. Thats why so many fans would get upset about a writer say writing Iceman and doesnt display the powers that hes capable.

With that srank, i do agree.

i know more about cyclops than brubaker, but thats neither here nor there...

srug

jrodslam
Originally posted by Starscream M
I agree with both of you

the irony is that what writers (often times ill-informed and sometimes downright ignorant) put on comics then become the canon that KMCers hold so sacred

Thing is, some writers dont actually read much on a character besides whats talked about and whats in a bio. Sad to say, but its true. Many times its cause of plot and many times its cause the writer just doesnt know, and many times the writer is a huge fan of the character and decides to amp him up a bit just cause hes the writer. Its the editors job to say "Woah woah woah! Hes not suppose to be doing that!" or "He cant get beaten that way because.....". But nooooo, many times that just doesnt happen.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Starscream M
ummm news flash to srank...shang chi isn't a top tier MA, only you think that. he's actually a 2nd tier.


No YOU think he is second tier because YOU haven't read anything he's appeared in.

Shang Chi is one of the best MA's on Marvel Earth, in pure skill and chi usage. He is above both Matt and Danny in skill... and he has flames on his running shoes!!!

Originally posted by Starscream M
also DD has beaten logan with skills...ie chop to the throat nerves.

You give DD adamantium skeleton and HF and remove that from logan, you think logan can get any wins?

While he was fighting Spider-man and DD at the same time in an Ennis book and it wasn't even in line with Wolverine's healing factor / durability portrayal with in THAT single arch let alone his other appearances.

Originally posted by Starscream M
You give DD adamantium skeleton and HF and remove that from logan, you think logan can get any wins?

None of that would have prevented Wolverine from getting him in a full nelson in MCP.

jrodslam
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang Chi is one of the best MA's on Marvel Earth, in pure skill and chi usage. He is above both Matt and Danny in skill... and he has flames on his running shoes!!!

While he was fighting Spider-man and DD at the same time in an Ennis book and it wasn't even in line with Wolverine's healing factor / durability portrayal with in THAT single arch let alone his other appearances.

None of that would have prevented Wolverine from getting him in a full nelson in MCP.

Its hard to say whether Shang is above Matt and Danny in skill. They all 3 are in the same league. Hardly anything to notice a difference. Its the other things that separate them.

If we're gonna discount DD taking Wolvie down via throat chop because of writer, we may as well discredit Wolvie getting the full nelson off on DD while having his judgement impaired by typhoid.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by jrodslam
Its hard to say whether Shang is above Matt and Danny in skill. They all 3 are in the same league. Hardly anything to notice a difference. Its the other things that separate them.

If we're gonna discount DD taking Wolvie down via throat chop because of writer, we may as well discredit Wolvie getting the full nelson off on DD while having his judgement impaired by typhoid.

True. I've just gotten used to saying Shang > Dany and Matt because of all the people saying "Shang Chi sucks," which pisses me off so I hype him a bit to make my point.

I discredit the chop because the same writer in the same story arch had Wolverine get 50% of his body incinerated and the Hulk punch Wolverine into a different state without Logan getting koed.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
there are reasons why it doesnt happen... though a 'million' is a bit extreme... anyways, i want to get back on topic, i was just trying to right a wrong...

My bad, I just read your post and I would like to respond to it but after you answer the question that Im about to ask then I'll leave you alone about this topic. Ok, you say that theres reasons on why he dont do it, would it make the fight boring, what reasons is it because flash did it and do it on a regular basis. You cant say that superman punch harder then flash because flash punches is like getting hit by a being that can punch through a white dwarf star. Why havent superman ever pulled a feat like this if he can punch someone a thousand times per second

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/428454/Trinity03-008.jpg.html

It wasnt hard for flash to do.

xmarksthespot
'Cos it would kinda be like stealing Flash's shtick. I'm sure Superman could block bullets with his wrists too, but I don't think Wonder Woman would be happy about it.

carver9
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
'Cos it would kinda be like stealing Flash's shtick. I'm sure Superman could block bullets with his wrists too, but I don't think Wonder Woman would be happy about it.

Great excuse even though superman can bullet and bullets actually hurts diana thats why she use her bracelets.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
True. I've just gotten used to saying Shang > Dany and Matt because of all the people saying "Shang Chi sucks," which pisses me off so I hype him a bit to make my point.

I discredit the chop because the same writer in the same story arch had Wolverine get 50% of his body incinerated and the Hulk punch Wolverine into a different state without Logan getting koed. Logan has survived being partly incinerated without being koed in other stories. So what? He was obviously in shock. And how do you know for sure that he didn't faint shortly after screaming for help? The action cut away from Wolverine. And how do you know for sure that Logan was koed when he was hit by Hulk or when he landed in Rhode Island? I'm pretty sure the action cut away from Wolverine again.

Daredevil just incapacitated him briefly with a nerve strike to the throat. Elektra paralyzed Wolverine with a sai stab in the back. Cap crushed Logan's tendons and prevented him from unsheathing his claws for a few minutes. An opponent can cause temporary localized damage to Wolverine that will give him/her a significant advantage in a fight. It's been done before.

Starscream M
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Logan has survived being partly incinerated without being koed in other stories. So what? He was obviously in shock. And how do you know for sure that he didn't faint shortly after screaming for help? The action cut away from Wolverine. And how do you know for sure that Logan was koed when he was hit by Hulk or when he landed in Rhode Island? I'm pretty sure the action cut away from Wolverine again.

Daredevil just incapacitated him briefly with a nerve strike to the throat. Elektra paralyzed Wolverine with a sai stab in the back. Cap crushed Logan's tendons and prevented him from unsheathing his claws for a few minutes. An opponent can cause temporary localized damage to Wolverine that will give him/her a significant advantage in a fight. It's been done before. thumb up

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by carver9
Great excuse even though superman can bullet and bullets actually hurts diana thats why she use her bracelets. I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, yes I know "he can bullet". He doesn't need to block bullets with his wrists nor does he necessarily need to always fight like the Flash does. It doesn't make him incapable of doing either. The bracelet trademark move and her inexplicable weakness to force applied over small areas is an illogical shtick that's part of her character. It's her "thing." Other characters doing it, regardless of whether they need to or not, would be like stealing her thunder. I'm sure several other characters can paint themselves Silver and ride around on a surfboard but I doubt you'll see it often in a comic.

jinzin
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Logan has survived being partly incinerated without being koed in other stories. So what? He was obviously in shock. And how do you know for sure that he didn't faint shortly after screaming for help? The action cut away from Wolverine. And how do you know for sure that Logan was koed when he was hit by Hulk or when he landed in Rhode Island? I'm pretty sure the action cut away from Wolverine again.

Daredevil just incapacitated him briefly with a nerve strike to the throat. Elektra paralyzed Wolverine with a sai stab in the back. Cap crushed Logan's tendons and prevented him from unsheathing his claws for a few minutes. An opponent can cause temporary localized damage to Wolverine that will give him/her a significant advantage in a fight. It's been done before. You're missing the point. In other stories, Wolverine has taken far worse damage to the throat area without hinderance whatsoever.

But in the same story arc under the same writer Wolverine has a completely different depiction of his HF that borders the opposite side of polarity from going down to a throat chop/pinch/strike. Aside from Ennis having flat out stated is bias, he was writing Wolverine's HF up and down within his own stories to such disimilar degrees that it was purely for the purpose of positioning Logan away from Pun as a threat for the story, it's by definition PIS.

We don't know that Wolverine wasn't incapacited from the rocket, but he wasn't doubled over in pain either. In shock? Maybe, but most likely not going by past feats. Either way is speculation. Was he KO'd? Dunno, seeing how he took off to heal elswhere it's unlikely as well.

When he got punched we see the moment he lands into the water and he immediately kills a random duck as he exits the pond (which of course shows Ennis total disregard for his character nevermind his powers and abilities as well). It doesn't seem like he was KOed or even affected.

As for your examples, against Elektra the P-point only worked when he had pressure applied to it, once removed he was fine.
With Cap, his HF was in a rut, he'd been going nonstop since the end of HOM. Way has been consistently trying to write Wolverine's HF down to play up the stakes in the stories.
Way's the same guy who wrote Wolverine healing from a skeleton in minutes the first time he did it, healin from ground zero nuke, and taking all the damage DP could dish refusing to go down til he was shot in the brain... It's pretty clear Way interprets his HF to be on a level above needing a couple minutes to heal crushed tendons. Wolverine also had problems with his bloody nose from Nuke. erm

Nerve strikes and the sort can work on Logan but it has to be a load of them, not just one.

Apolloknight
I haven't read through the whole thread but, why is everybody arguing logans healing factor? I thought is was null for this fight?

Creshosk
Originally posted by Apolloknight
I haven't read through the whole thread but, why is everybody arguing logans healing factor? I thought is was null for this fight?

Wolverine haters and Dardevil supporters: Wolverine relies on his healing factor in fights; he has no real showings of skill; Wolverine always has that advantage

Wolverine supporters: Its not that big of an advantage, alot of times he's pretty messed up when he fights them. Some of the feats he has you wouldn't NEED the HF to pull off.

carver9
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, yes I know "he can bullet". He doesn't need to block bullets with his wrists nor does he necessarily need to always fight like the Flash does. It doesn't make him incapable of doing either. The bracelet trademark move and her inexplicable weakness to force applied over small areas is an illogical shtick that's part of her character. It's her "thing." Other characters doing it, regardless of whether they need to or not, would be like stealing her thunder. I'm sure several other characters can paint themselves Silver and ride around on a surfboard but I doubt you'll see it often in a comic.

So Im guessing since mimic can shoot blast out of his eyes he stealing superman shine. Or since wonder woman can fly just like superman and can lift large objects she is stealing his shine. What about supergirl, she basically do everything that superman does, is she stealing his shine. You do know that captain marvel on numerous of occasions caught bullets just like superman, is he stealing his shine. Thats a lame excuse. If superman can throw a 1000 punches per second and could beat someone before they could blink then he would have done it, flash has shown this throughout his career why doesnt the same thing happen for superman and please dont answer it with that lame excuse again.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
My bad, I just read your post and I would like to respond to it but after you answer the question that Im about to ask then I'll leave you alone about this topic. Ok, you say that theres reasons on why he dont do it, would it make the fight boring, what reasons is it because flash did it and do it on a regular basis. You cant say that superman punch harder then flash because flash punches is like getting hit by a being that can punch through a white dwarf star. Why havent superman ever pulled a feat like this if he can punch someone a thousand times per second

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/428454/Trinity03-008.jpg.html

It wasnt hard for flash to do.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
'Cos it would kinda be like stealing Flash's shtick. I'm sure Superman could block bullets with his wrists too, but I don't think Wonder Woman would be happy about it.

laughing

that made my week...

Originally posted by carver9
So Im guessing since mimic can shoot blast out of his eyes he stealing superman shine. Or since wonder woman can fly just like superman and can lift large objects she is stealing his shine. What about supergirl, she basically do everything that superman does, is she stealing his shine. You do know that captain marvel on numerous of occasions caught bullets just like superman, is he stealing his shine. Thats a lame excuse. If superman can throw a 1000 punches per second and could beat someone before they could blink then he would have done it, flash has shown this throughout his career why doesnt the same thing happen for superman and please dont answer it with that lame excuse again.

and x is right. also, superman is just too damn nice for his own good... he won't get vicious, he's a completely different personality to wally... wally believes in the death penalty, clark treasures ALL life, even that of his enemies... clark is constantly hoping his enemy will calm down and see his side of things...

wally just wants you to get ktfo... he has no problems going all out and smashing an enemy's face in if it means stopping them...

also, bar an infinite mass punch, imo clark does hit harder than wally, FAR harder, if he wants to...

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by jinzin
You're missing the point. In other stories, Wolverine has taken far worse damage to the throat area without hinderance whatsoever.So? Wolverine's taken worse damage to his back and his forearms, didn't stop Elektra and Cap from using precise or localized damage to hinder Wolverine.
Originally posted by jinzin
But in the same story arc under the same writer Wolverine has a completely different depiction of his HF that borders the opposite side of polarity from going down to a throat chop/pinch/strike. Aside from Ennis having flat out stated is bias, he was writing Wolverine's HF up and down within his own stories to such disimilar degrees that it was purely for the purpose of positioning Logan away from Pun as a threat for the story, it's by definition PIS. Ennis never "flat out stated his bias." Show me a link to an interview. Show me ANYTHING that Ennis has ever said, that states he was biased. Prove it to me. It's a myth spawned from the storyline by angry Wolverine fans. Trust me. I've looked for it, no such interview exists despite my fervent searches. If you have it, by all means, post it. Because I've been looking for it for months and have found nothing. It's not PIS because Wolverine's been incapacitated by a sai stab in the back. Wolverine crumpled over when Ord slashed his guts. Precise striking/stabbing/slashing can incapacitate Wolverine briefly. That's all that happened with the Daredevil feat.
Originally posted by jinzin
We don't know that Wolverine wasn't incapacited from the rocket, but he wasn't doubled over in pain either. In shock? Maybe, but most likely not going by past feats. Either way is speculation. Was he KO'd? Dunno, seeing how he took off to heal elswhere it's unlikely as well.

When he got punched we see the moment he lands into the water and he immediately kills a random duck as he exits the pond (which of course shows Ennis total disregard for his character nevermind his powers and abilities as well). It doesn't seem like he was KOed or even affected.How can you be doubled over in pain when you have no legs or guts? He was in shock, screams for help and you don't see him again until he's healed. I don't remember the scene you're referring to, but Wolverine has survived falling from great heights before and retaining consciousness after impact. So what?
Originally posted by jinzin
As for your examples, against Elektra the P-point only worked when he had pressure applied to it, once removed he was fine.
With Cap, his HF was in a rut, he'd been going nonstop since the end of HOM. Way has been consistently trying to write Wolverine's HF down to play up the stakes in the stories.
Way's the same guy who wrote Wolverine healing from a skeleton in minutes the first time he did it, healin from ground zero nuke, and taking all the damage DP could dish refusing to go down til he was shot in the brain... It's pretty clear Way interprets his HF to be on a level above needing a couple minutes to heal crushed tendons. Wolverine also had problems with his bloody nose from Nuke. erm

Nerve strikes and the sort can work on Logan but it has to be a load of them, not just one.Wolverine's healing factor was not in a rut. I remember reading about your assertion that Wolverine was going non-stop without food or rest since House of M. That's garbage and you know it. I've recently reread Wolverine #36-40 and Wolverine: Origins #1-6. In Wolverine #37-38, Wolverine goes to Japan, fights Silver Samurai and swims to a boat. There he eats his arm because he is starving. He wakes up and the boat has taken him to Canada. At this point, YES, Wolverine's healing factor is in a rut. Arguably no food, no rest, non-stop.

That trend doesn't keep up at all. In Wolverine #38, he travels to Serbia. He had convinced smugglers operating out of Montreal to take him there. During this travel, Wolverine has found new clothes and is carrying a backpack. Do you really expect me to believe that he didn't eat or rest between Montreal and Serbia? PLEASE. At the end of Wolverine #38, he fights Winter Soldier and gets put down by two bullets to the chest. After Winter Soldier waits for him to wake up, he explains his part in murdering Itsu. Afterwards, Wolverine hooks up with some connections, grabs some supplies (including a yellow/brown suit) and travels from Serbia to Japan. Do you honestly expect me to believe that he didn't eat or rest between Serbia and Japan? In Japan, he retrieves the Muramasa blade.

And that leads us straight to the opening scene in Wolverine: Origins #1. From here, Wolverine travels from Japan to Washington DC to confront the Secretary in the White House. Are you arguing that he didn't eat or sleep between Japan and USA? In Wolverine: Origins #2, we see Wolverine has travelled to Brooklyn, NY and is sitting in a hideout in civvies while listening to the news. After hearing about the massacre in Lai Chi, he travels to Vietnam. This is where he confronts Nuke. Between Washington DC to Brooklyn to Vietnam, you expect me to believe he didn't eat or rest?

In Wolverine: Origins #3, the only thing that Nuke does to Wolverine prior to Cap's arrival is punch him in the face, rifle butt his chin and step on his face a couple of times. He also tries to use the grenade launcher attached to his rifle, but Wolverine kicks it in another direction and is sent a few dozen feet away by the shock of the blast. This is exactly where Cap tosses his shield at Wolverine's wrist and comes in. A few blows and a missed blast that tosses Wolverine a few yards and you expect me to believe that Wolverine's healing factor was in a rut by the time Cap fights him? No thanks.

And what do you mean he had a problem with a bloody nose? Just because he had a blood stream from his nose onto his upper lip? When you have Cap punching and shield bashing your face and you never get a chance to wipe away the blood from your upper lip... it's not beyond reason to think that the blood would still be there. Oh and of course, Cap then slashed him with the Muramasa. Cmon. Daredevil's done it, Elektra's done it, Ord's done it, Cap's done it. You can incapacitate Wolverine briefly with localized precise damage infliction. And Wolverine's healing factor was pretty much fine during EACH of those instances.

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