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Exar Kun vs. ROTS Sidious

Force battle only.

Palps.

Sidious, by a fair margin

Exar Kun. He has his amulet blasts and this isn't Sidious at his peak.

I keep forgetting about those goddamn amulet blasts! It may not be his peak incarnation, but would you really put Kun above Sidious still?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Exar Kun. He has his amulet blasts and this isn't Sidious at his peak.

No, but in all fairness, the Emperor never becomes blaster- or amulet-proof. Meanwhile, we already have two sources that label Sidious as the most powerful Sith in history, so he is stronger than Kun even here, though I doubt it is by an incredible margin.

I believe that kun has a slight chance to win this force battle due to his amulet blasts seeing that this incarnation of sidious is not as powerful as his later self.

God I hate those stupid amulet blasts. Why does everyone assume just cause Kun goes DBZ on an inatimate object (a temple wall) a few red shirt mooks ( the massasi) and a monster that can't use the force directly. That he'd automatically do that to ANYONE he faced in combat? With no draw backs at all, as if he can just sit and spam blasts over and over again? The comic books itself even says that as Kun used them more and more yes, the blast increased in power but he also loses more and more control over them to the point where it threatens to destroy him.

Also the only time we even see something close to what he does in the temple to anther force user is on Aleema, which it only knocks her out and doesn't kill her instantly ( But of course I forgot this wasn't the same attack cause it was a wavy beam not a straight one

That can be attributed to artist interpretation. And notice he doesn't even attempt this on Ulic, whom was the only real threat to him. Nor to Vodo.

Moreover its a force attack, thus it can be logically blocked with the force or a force shield. Bane unleashes an force wave that puts Kuns little blasts to shame only to have it fully blocked by a not so spectacular force user whom specialized in saber combat, within a split second. Now, if that could be blocked I see no reason why the kamehameha waves can't be blocked either. I really don't see how they'd do anything else other then amuse Sidious slightly.

Sith Amulet Kamehameha Wave Blast FTW.

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
God I hate those stupid amulet blasts. Why does everyone assume just cause Kun goes DBZ on an inatimate object (a temple wall) a few red shirt mooks ( the massasi) and a monster that can't use the force directly. That he'd automatically do that to ANYONE he faced in combat? With no draw backs at all, as if he can just sit and spam blasts over and over again? The comic books itself even says that as Kun used them more and more yes, the blast increased in power but he also loses more and more control over them to the point where it threatens to destroy him.

Also the only time we even see something close to what he does in the temple to anther force user is on Aleema, which it only knocks her out and doesn't kill her instantly ( But of course I forgot this wasn't the same attack cause it was a wavy beam not a straight one

That can be attributed to artist interpretation. And notice he doesn't even attempt this on Ulic, whom was the only real threat to him. Nor to Vodo.

Moreover its a force attack, thus it can be logically blocked with the force or a force shield. Bane unleashes an force wave that puts Kuns little blasts to shame only to have it fully blocked by a not so spectacular force user whom specialized in saber combat, within a split second. Now, if that could be blocked I see no reason why the kamehameha waves can't be blocked either. I really don't see how they'd do anything else other then amuse Sidious slightly.

I don't much about them other than the fact that everyone thinks its the most uber thing to have. As i said, i don't see how Sidious would be below Kun in the force.

I believe Styles was referring to the damage wrought by Bane's telekinesis; he brought down a massive temple. Not being an expert on Kun, does he achieve something similar?

He put big holes in a wall and destroyed a large worm.

No, Kun has not accomplished a similar feat, but to assume that the amulet beams wouldn't be able to replicate what happened in POD is silly. Just take a look at the explosions caused by the blasts themselves, they are huge.

The point I was making was that the power behind the two attacks differs greatly, with Kun's blasts being more powerful. I'd say more power is more impressive. And didn't Bane just collapse the entranceway of the structure, not the actual temple itself?

Originally posted by Advent
No, Kun has not accomplished a similar feat, but to assume that the amulet beams wouldn't be able to replicate what happened in POD is silly. Just take a look at the explosions caused by the blasts themselves, they are huge.

The point I was making was that the power behind the two attacks differs greatly, with Kun's blasts being more powerful. I'd say more power is more impressive. And didn't Bane just collapse the entranceway of the structure, not the actual temple itself?

I recall it was the entire temple. But this is after years of listening to Nebaris.

Originally posted by Gideon
I believe Styles was referring to the damage wrought by Bane's telekinesis; he brought down a massive temple. Not being an expert on Kun, does he achieve something similar? He merely brought down an extremely old building and he simply destroyed the buildings foundations... which caused the whole temple to collapse.

I don't have the book with me as it is misplaced... but i do recall his force wave hitting the buildings base, not the whole building as dickbaris is claiming to make his sex idol look more Ub3R

I see part of your argument stems from Wookiepedia. Clearly they never took into consideration the fact that not all dark side energy carries the same attributes. Could it possibly be that the energy produced by the gauntlet has different properties than a Sith magic attack? Yes, that's a rather sound assumption rather than lumping them together.

Originally posted by Dr. Styles
My point in that statement was, everyone is just flat out assuming that Kun will seemingly just sit there and shoot out blasts and no one will be able to do a damn thing about it, which I have said the onus is on your side to prove that

Exar's blast can penetrate the force shield of a powerful force user let alone Darth Sidious.

Let me stop you right there, I never claimed that Kun's blasts are completely incapable of being blocked (or that his opponent will sit idly by) nor did I ever have the intention of arguing such. So please quit being presumptuous.



Based off that, you're assuming that Sidious would be able to constantly block massive energy beams that multiplies in power with every pulse of Kun's anger? Where's the evidence for that again? Contrary to what Sidious says in ROTS, he does not have "UNLIMITED POWAH!".

Do you honestly believe he wouldn't have to expend a ridiculous amount of energy just to block the first beam (that's assuming it doesn't overpower him anyways)? We know that the power behind the amulet beams are enough to blast through a Sith Wyrm and still travel with the same apparent force that it began with. We also know that to shield yourself from an attack, you'd be draining yourself. Given the sheer intensity of the beams, I'd surmise that Sidious would be exhausting a rather considerable portion of his power.



Originally posted by Advent
Prior to knowing jack shit about the dark side and the powers of the ancient Sith.

He has now mastered Sadow's teaching and grown exponentially more powerful.

Realize I wasn't questioning whether or not you were correct, only that your using a Kun who - by comparison to his later self - is substantially weaker.



And then Kun reflects to himself the very same thing, ergo he set out to master that power. This is why your premise here is flawed. By your inane reasoning, ROTS Obi-Wan sucks at Soresu since when he first started practicing it, he wasn't good at all. Does that make sense to you? No, because by the time of ROTS, he had completely mastered the form.

Quit being dense.



We're talking about Exar Kun, the Dark Lord of the Sith not Exar Kun, the Jedi who knew absolutely nothing of what clamped around his hand. Once you learn that they are not one in the same, then perhaps you'll see why these blasts would be rather effective.



Who's skin is also not tougher than a Sith Wyrm's hide nor temple rock.



Continue throwing out this type of irrelevancy, Styles. The fact that Sidious is neither of these things matters not. If the blast connected with Sidious, he would be toast.



I'd question by what degree. Nevertheless if a blast actually hit Sidious, what exactly do you think would happen to him? Would he magically be able to survive complete disintegration? I'd think not.



A blur to whom exactly? The problem is that while he may "move as a blur" to character X, it doesn't mean character Y wouldn't be able to follow his movements. Not to mention, the instance you're referring to in the novel is trumped by the highest form of canon (which shows Anakin wasn't even there to perceive the duel).



Which is rather irrelevant.



If by "logical" you mean "absolutely apeshit insane".

According to your logic, Sidious' lightning isn't effective in a fight simply because it can be blocked. Your slippery slope reasoning is extremely f'ed up and makes no sense. Your assuming that because something can be blocked, it inevitably will be blocked. A logical fallacy.



Yet you'd continue to offer proof that "KUN CANT CONTROL TEH AMULETZ!" by using a version of Exar Kun who knew precisely squat about the dark side or how to operate the gauntlet.



It's not exactly as unknown as you'd like it to be, Styles. We know that prior to his discovery of the gauntlet on Yavin IV, he was an extraordinary (but not necessarily all-powerful) Jedi apprentice. After studying Sadow's trove of knowledge, he becomes one of the most powerful entities in the Star Wars mythos. The leap of power would've had to have been immense...



....and given that immense boost in strength and the fact that he has mastered all of what Sadow left behind, no it's not "stretching" anything. The only "stretch" stems from your position, that he wouldn't be able to do such.



As I alluded to earlier: bullshit.



Originally posted by Advent
Is Kun using the amulet to push back Sylvar or Odan Urr simply because he uses the same hand? I was always under the impression if you were right or left handed - for the most part - you would usually demonstrate your powers with that hand, so long as it was free.

"On its own" it means absolutely nothing.



The aura produced by the amulets was Sith magic, the omniscient narrator explicitly states as much:

"A time when Sith magic learned how to construct amulets to carry a message down through the centuries"...it follows then that the attack by Kun was, in fact, Sith magic since it's exactly the same in appearance. It does not follow that Sith magic blasts and the amulet beams are the same power, however.



Could it be because Sith magic was calling Ragnos forth and that Sith magic was used by Kun to floor Aleema? I wouldn't exactly expect them to differ.



The appearance of the blasts only support my position. If I had no other reason to assume they were different besides how they were penciled, then I wouldn't be arguing against it. You stating that "ZOMG ADVENT! JUST BECAUSE" when it's obvious that is not the only piece of evidence is ridiculous.



Learn to refute my points and then perhaps my argument will amount to: "nuh uh those lines are squiggly".



How would using the gauntlet prove a damn thing? It is a safe assumption to make that anyone who equips the gauntlet could produce the blasts, so it's not exactly impressive. Toppling her with the same type of magic she used against him fits more to his character and the dialogue presented.



But it is. The burden of proof lies upon you to prove your assertion, not just state it.



See above, prove up that beams of energy which are shown to completely disintegrate anything that comes in their path and Sith magic which is only shown to knock the victim unconscious are the same thing. Their characteristics differ greatly and there's no indication ever that they're the same attack, with one being a more powerful form than the other.

This is what we see long before he even attempts his assault on Ulic and Nomi:

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1477/omminfilledwithpowerwd2.th.jpg

Ommin's attack encases Arca in a constant dark side energy, which is absolutely nothing like the blasts produced by the Sadow's amulet nor is it ever noted as being possible to do with it. On the page prior to that, Arca notes that Nadd had been teaching Ommin in the ways of Sith magic (which is what Aleema performs on Kun and vica versa).



" lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch. 17)

Dark side techniques are fueled by hatred, so it's not exactly suspect for the attack to be described in such a manner. It doesn't mean they are the same power.



You're right, Kun is the one "unleashing tremendous energies". However, he would've been incapable of releasing said energies without the use of the amulet as a conduit.



I'm curious to know what exactly "would have came out" if Kun didn't have the gauntlet equipped. Indeed, you clearly seem to lack a grasp of understanding of what is presented in the comic. The amulet is the conductor for which the blasts are being released. They are what is manifesting the "dark rage in heart" into beams of destructive energy.



They're blasts that cannot be produced without the use of the amulet, hence "amulet blasts".



Dharma fing Buddha, they are not the same attack. Sith magic is not the equivalent to what is produced by the gauntlet. If it is, prove up without your damn speculation.



Except that doesn't apply to this scenario, since you've failed to establish that the attacks are the same.



What a crock! This is a huge unsupported assumption. I wish I could live in the same fantasy world as you where by just saying something makes it so. It sure would be a vacation to not have to obey the basic laws of proving up before accepting something to be true.

Despite your ridiculous claim, this is still a valid point you need to address:

Originally posted by Advent
The blast didn't even so much as put a burn on Aleema's dress, even if it was toned down - there isn't even a little singe. He was actually mad, as you can obviously tell by his dialogue to Aleema when she claimed him to be a "pretender".



She was knocked unconscious by Sith magic, Styles. The same Sith magic Aleema used against Kun ("Aleema is relieved to find her Sith magic still intact". Which, in generally every instance, is shown to incapacitate the victim (see: Ommin's use of it against Arca above).

And being that Kun by the time of he confronts Ulic is very powerful and that Aleema does not put up a defense, it would stand to reason that an amulet blast would've killed her (and that was Kun's initial intention). But it didn't. Thus, it was not the same attack.



No evidence points to Aleema creating a defense against Kun's assault to begin with, so this is all rather meaningless.



Prove she created a Force shield. You can't, because she didn't. Prove that it was an amulet blast. You can't, because it wasn't. Therefore,

Feel. Free. To. Shut. Up. Anytime.



The same Sidious who was shitting his pants when Yoda threw back a Senate pod. I wonder how he's going to respond to beams of massive magnitude which double in strength with each pulse.



That only works when you know what you're talking about. You clearly don't. Try again.



...I see what you're saying, but I don't think they can really be compared given the difference in nature.

Originally posted by Advent
And didn't Bane just collapse the entranceway of the structure, not the actual temple itself? Precisely, i don't know why people think he blasted the entire temple when all he did was merely break its foundations.

Thats completely flawed, considering the ONLY things Exar Kun blasted with the "amulet blasts" are as I stated: Inanimate objects, a Sith Wyrm that can't actively use the force in defense and a couple of Red shirt mooks (Oh yeah and the unsuspecting ghost of Naad) All these save for the unsuspecting Naad are things that CAN'T USE THE FORCE TO PROTECT THEM from Kun's onslaught. Now, had in that exact same comic he blasted a Jedi Knight or something of the equivalent in force power to dust with the Jedi able to do nothing in defense then you'd have a point, but he didn't and you don't.







Thats rather silly considering:

-The concept of a force shield wasn't fully explored at the time of the comic

-Your going to assume that Aleema someone who apparently values her life, would be arrogant enough to simply "let" Exar Kun shoot her with random Dark Side energy especially after she saw how her own power had no affect on him.

-As I've pointed out force shields can be thrown up within seconds.

-The shields don't have an active aura so she doesn't need to be shinny and blue to have blocked the attack at least partially.



Lets look at this realistically now, why would any logical author introduce a devastating force power like the blasts, then never use it again? And if were going by all the hype your throwing at them they can "OMG disintegrate NETHING!" that becomes a rather blatant plot hole, why didn't Exar Kun waltz into random Jedi temples (As he does on Ossus) and just fire off blasts? Nothing could stop him since he's "One of the most powerful entities in the star wars mythos at that point" And as you've said he's now mastered everything Sadow had so he can apparently spam blasts with no repercussion and since every blasts gets stronger and stronger, nothing could stop him. But he doesn't. Because maybe, just maybe they're not the be all end all of force power. And maybe they're not as strong as you'd like them to be.



So after Kun sets out to master this new power, which let me remind you was just introduced, he apparently does this for 6 months, then emerges, what one comic later to fight Ulic and Aleema with intent to kill, and does a ANTHER new random power on Aleema that is off the same hand as the amulet, looks like the previous power with the only difference being its a NEW ARTIST and its squiggly, but its apparently different cause: Aleemas dress didn't get burned, its red, and you say so...ah huh.



The DSSB lists this power:

Hatred:
You can release all your hatred in a blast of pure Force
energy

You were saying?

Its obvious you can perform the blasts without the amulet, as I said the amulet only amplifies what would have already came out.

Sith Amulet
"A Force-user with the Alter feat can use a Sith amulet
to project focused blasts of dark side energy." - DSSB

All those blasts are is concentrated force energy. They are the same attacks only Kun's is stronger since:

1. He's stronger

2. Its focused and amplified by the amulet.

Random and off topic:

Advet Have you read Bleach past the Soul Society arc if so does it get any better after that arc? Cause I stopped watching/reading when Aizen pwnt everybody and left, and I'm curious if its worth picking up again.

I'm way too tired to address any more posts today, but I promise I'll get to that whole lotta' nothing tomorrow. Anyways, yes, I've read Bleach up to chapter 298 so far. It does get better, especially with the introduction of the two new races: the arrancar and vizards. There are some good twists and even better battles (watch for Grimmjow!), IMO. They are also counting down from -108 to show us events that happened in the past unfold and give a better understand of what lead up to the present. I won't spoil too much for you just in case you decide to start reading again.

However, the anime past the SS, well first you're in store for a 40 some episode filler arc. Which you'll probably only like if you were a fan of Pokemon. It's not that bad, but I didn't exactly enjoy it (you can skip it if you want). Once it starts following the manga again, its great. But now it's on another filler arc.

If you want, you can read the manga here. I definitely think it's worth another go.