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ss with the power cosmic vs orion with the astro force, they once fought in the crossover galactus vs darkside and ss owned him, but it did'nt feel right the way john byrne scripted that battle.

current surfer is just top of the line right now...he take this

Originally posted by lawest9
ss with the power cosmic vs orion with the astro force, they once fought in the crossover galactus vs darkside and ss owned him, but it did'nt feel right the way john byrne scripted that battle. It wasn't right. But Surfer still wins.

norrin

SS ftw.

Originally posted by lawest9
ss with the power cosmic vs orion with the astro force, they once fought in the crossover galactus vs darkside and ss owned him, but it did'nt feel right the way john byrne scripted that battle.
That's exactly how the battle will turn out.

Orion is being lowballed............Surfer has no counter for the Astro Force. It might as well be magic to him.

Orion.

Surfer 6/10.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Orion is being lowballed............Surfer has no counter for the Astro Force. It might as well be magic to him.

lolwut?


Anyways SS wins

the only low balling i saw was that orion wasnt extra crispy from SS blast.


since its bn brought up i think i gonna reread that issue just for laughs.

Orion has dealt with more powerful beings than a alien on a shiny surfboard. And he has a much more destructive energy force.

SS has dealt with far more powerful beings than a supposed "god" who couldnt even break titanium. He also has a superior power output is more versatile,faster and more durable.

How is he more versatile? And faster?

He makes use of his powers far more. And he has more speed feats both in and out of battle.

BTW, I wouldn't use that titanium example. Orion has gotten out of tougher metals and actually did the same thing in Simonson's run. Bad example.

Originally posted by cloud102
How is he more versatile? And faster?

you gotta be kidding.. SS controls and manipulates energy on a cosmic scale for vast effects.

Originally posted by cloud102
How is he more versatile? And faster?
Because he has "infinite" speed and can transmute objects.

You described surfer as "an alien with a shiny surfboard". It was in reply to that foolish description that i brouht up the titatnium example.

Originally posted by Naija boy
He makes use of his powers far more. And he has more speed feats both in and out of battle.

Same as Orion. Orion has moved FASTER than the speed of light. Even been shown to have ftl reflexes. Also, he has shown to do pretty much everything Surfer, with more destructive energy.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Because he has "infinite" speed and can transmute objects.

Uhh, Orion has transmutation abilities as well. And has even resisted such attacks by the MOTHER BOX.

If you want to talk about transmutation, Orion has created the Genesisis Box, which has jump started the UNIVERSE.

Originally posted by Naija boy
You described surfer as "an alien with a shiny surfboard". It was in reply to that foolish description that i brouht up the titatnium example.

AHAHAA! I was joking. Don't get your underwear in a bunch.

Originally posted by cloud102
Same as Orion. Orion has moved FASTER than the speed of light. Even been shown to have ftl reflexes. Also, he has shown to do pretty much everything Surfer, with more destructive energy.

So what if orion has moved faster than the speed of light? Has he ever done so in battle? Surfer actually has. Not to mention surfer is so far faster than light its not even funny. As i said surfer uses his versatility FAR more than orion does. Not to mention he acually has feats of versatility on a higher level.

Originally posted by cloud102
Uhh, Orion has transmutation abilities as well. And has even resisted such attacks by the MOTHER BOX.

If you want to talk about transmutation, Orion has created the Genesisis Box, which has jump started the UNIVERSE.

Scans or context? Did orion actually create the Genesis box with his personal transmutation powers. I find that hard to believe.

If my non canon comic tells me anything, it's that SS stomps Orion.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Scans or context? Did orion actually create the Genesis box with his personal transmutation powers. I find that hard to believe.

Technology is an extension of the New Gods. Many writers have stated this. Orion simply used that tech to rewrite or jump start the universe from DS taint.

It's not the first time New Gods have created powerful tech. Ever read Seven Soldiers?

Originally posted by Naija boy
So what if orion has moved faster than the speed of light? Has he ever done so in battle? Surfer actually has. Not to mention surfer is so far faster than light its not even funny. As i said surfer uses his versatility FAR more than orion does. Not to mention he acually has feats of versatility on a higher level.

Yes, he has moved at superspeeds in battle. Read Simonson's run. I believe it was shown that he had ftl reflexes there as well. Doesn't matter, it's not like Surfer speed blitz's all the time.

Just to add on the whole superspeed thing. The Mother Box can counter superspeedsters and can even TRACK beings in other dimensions.

If anyone remembers JLA/avengers, Tony Stark with the Mother Box was able to spot the FLASH. And he had the Mother Box.

Originally posted by cloud102
Technology is an extension of the New Gods. Many writers have stated this. Orion simply used that tech to rewrite or jump start the universe from DS taint.

It's not the first time New Gods have created powerful tech. Ever read Seven Soldiers?

Technology being an "extension of the new gods" or whatever is irrelevant and doesnt answer m question. Im close to a hundred percent sure that Orion didnt simply use his transmutation abilities to create the genesis box from nothing . That is what is relevant here. I dont know why people feel the need to misrepresent feats continuously. Orion might have used the Genesis box to recreate the universe from Darkseids taint or whatever but he was NOT given the genesis box in this scenario and so that fact is IRRELEVANT as well. All im concerned with is Orions personal transmutation abilities together in comparison to surfers. So either bring scans showing Orion trasmutation feats that are superior to surfers (if u really insist that Orion used his own power to create the genesis box then post the scans, it wont be the first time ive shot down misrepresented scans) or just drop it.

Originally posted by cloud102
Yes, he has moved at superspeeds in battle. Read Simonson's run. I believe it was shown that he had ftl reflexes there as well. Doesn't matter, it's not like Surfer speed blitz's all the time.

Jeez, what kind of strawmanning is this? I never claimed that Orion didnt have superspeed or has never used it in battle. I claimed that surfer has superior speed feats both in and out of battle and so speedwise he does have the advantage.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Technology being an "extension of the new gods" or whatever is irrelevant and doesnt answer m question. Im close to a hundred percent sure that Orion didnt simply use his transmutation abilities to create the genesis box from nothing . That is what is relevant here. I dont know why people feel the need to misrepresent feats continuously. Orion might have used the Genesis box to recreate the universe from Darkseids taint or whatever but he was NOT given the genesis box in this scenario and so that fact is IRRELEVANT as well. All im concerned with is Orions personal transmutation abilities together in comparison to surfers. So either bring scans showing Orion trasmutation feats that are superior to surfers (if u really insist that Orion used his own power to create the genesis box then post the scans, it wont be the first time ive shot down misrepresented scans) or just drop it.

It is pretty important, because it was never really shown how Orion created the Genesis Box. On the other hand, Orion has SHOWN to create the Gauntlets and Harness from NOTHING. Thus showing that he can use his tranmutation abilties on the fly. People have asked Morrison and Simonson (on the NG message board) anout this. They stated that the technology NG used is simply an extension of the Gods.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Jeez, what kind of strawmanning is this? I never claimed that Orion didnt have superspeed or has never used it in battle. I claimed that surfer has superior speed feats both in and out of battle and so speedwise he does have the advantage.

You should be talking. You know nothing about these characters, and you still debate against them. What a crock of shit.

And Surfer has NO speed advantage. Seeing as Orion has tech to counter this.

Originally posted by Mindset
If my non canon comic tells me anything, it's that SS stomps Orion.

Same here.

That non cannon comic was one of the very few that was written correctly.

Originally posted by tkitna
Same here.

That non cannon comic was one of the very few that was written correctly.

That shit happened years ago. Since then, Orion has also received certain upgrades and his character is more fleshed out. Thanks particularly to Walt. Orion is perhaps the greatest top tier fighter, knowing most techniques across the universe. And we have seen what a simple armbar can do to Surfer.

The fight is pretty even, I'm leaning towards Orion slightly only because he is the faster competitior. In addition to superior stats and MA ability, if the gap is closed the fight will overwhealming turn into Orion's favor. Right now Im going Orion 6/10.

Originally posted by cloud102
It is pretty important, because it was never really shown how Orion created the Genesis Box. On the other hand, Orion has SHOWN to create the Gauntlets and Harness from NOTHING. Thus showing that he can use his tranmutation abilties on the fly. People have asked Morrison and Simonson (on the NG message board) anout this. They stated that the technology NG used is simply an extension of the Gods.

My God. how can the feat of Orion recreating the universe with the genesis box be pretty important when even u yourself admit that it was NEVER shown how the Genesis box was created? Nothing suggests that orion created the genesis box under his own power. Heck brandnew motherboxes in general arent just instantly created from nothing midbattle so to assume that Orion can do so here is just laughable. Saying that NG technology is simply an extension of the Gods doesnt at all mean that they can simply create brand new motherboxes out of thin air. It simply refers to the closeness between them and the technology they use(i.e they and their motherboxes which are living computers) U are obviously not reading my posts properly before u reply them or even ur own for that matter.

Further get the useless strawman argumentation out of here. My premise was never that Orion couldnt use his transmutation abilities on the fly but that he did not have transmutation feats using his own power superior to surfers with feats such as evolvin planets,synthesizing the odinforce etc. And u have done nothing to prove the contrary and instead have chosen to continuously bring up irrelevant information

Originally posted by Naija boy
My God. how can the feat of Orion recreating the universe with the genesis box be pretty important when even u yourself admit that it was NEVER shown how the Genesis box was created? Nothing suggests that orion created the genesis box under his own power. Heck brandnew motherboxes in general arent just instantly created from nothing midbattle so to assume that Orion can do so here is just laughable. Saying that NG technology is simply an extension of the Gods doesnt at all mean that they can simply create brand new motherboxes out of thin air. It simply refers to the closeness between them and the technology they use(i.e they and their motherboxes which are living computers) U are obviously not reading my posts properly before u reply them or even ur own for that matter.

Further get the useless strawman argumentation out of here. My premise was never that Orion couldnt use his transmutation abilities on the fly but that he did not have transmutation feats using his own power superior to surfers with feats such as evolvin planets,synthesizing the odinforce etc. And u have done nothing to prove the contrary and instead have chosen to continuously bring up irrelevant information

It was stated that Orion DID create the Genesisis Box. That is known. Now, I'm NOT saying Orion created it on the fly, just simply that he IS capable of such a device, because people here like to point out that the New Gods aren't capable of transmutation.

And you keep on talking shit. Orion has created MB's from thin air.

BTW, transmutation is hardly an argument on itself. Evolving planets isn't going to help Surfer one bit. Nor transmuting Orion, so get that weal sauce out of here.

Originally posted by cloud102
You should be talking. You know nothing about these characters, and you still debate against them. What a crock of shit.

And Surfer has NO speed advantage. Seeing as Orion has tech to counter this.

Ad hominem, instead of providing evidence to support ur side of the argument u start resort to going on useless tirades. I have made no claims concerning Orions abilities. All i have done is ask u to provide evidence that orion is superior to surfer in certain areas. Instead of doing so u have danced round it and misrepresented my side of the argument while still not supporting yours. You also have tried to misrepresent feats claimin that orion created the genesis box with his transmutation abilities and expect us to believe he could do so on the fly when it is obviously not the case. Its quite obvious where the shit is comin from in this debate.

And yes surfer does have the speed advantage. Orions tech being able to detect surfer is beneficial for orion but does not completely nullify the speed advantage.

Regardless surfer wont win this match solely because of speed but because of a combination of his abilities.

Originally posted by cloud102
It was stated that Orion DID create the Genesisis Box. That is known. Now, I'm NOT saying Orion created it on the fly, just simply that he IS capable of such a device, because people here like to point out that the New Gods aren't capable of transmutation.

And you keep on talking shit. Orion has created MB's from thin air.

BTW, transmutation is hardly an argument on itself. Evolving planets isn't going to help Surfer one bit. Nor transmuting Orion, so get that weal sauce out of here.

He didnt create it on the fly. We dont know exactl how he created it so it does not count as evidence of his superior transmutation abilities

Please show the scans of Orion creatin brandnew motherboxes out of thin air midbattle or GTFO here with that.

And once again, I didnt say that surfer would win because of transmutation alone but rather thanks to a combination of superior abilities of which transmutation is one of them.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ad hominem, instead of providing evidence to support ur side of the argument u start resort to going on useless tirades. I have made no claims concerning Orions abilities. All i have done is ask u to provide evidence that orion is superior to surfer in certain areas. Instead of doing so u have danced round it and misrepresented my side of the argument while still not supporting yours. You also have tried to misrepresent feats claimin that orion created the genesis box with his transmutation abilities and expect us to believe he could do so on the fly when it is obviously not the case. Its quite obvious where the shit is comin from in this debate.

And yes surfer does have the speed advantage. Orions tech being able to detect surfer is beneficial for orion but does not completely nullify the speed advantage.

Regardless surfer wont win this match solely because of speed but because of a combination of his abilities.

Where is your evidence? Surfer is faster? Where? Surfer is more versatile? Where? We've been debating Orion for awhile now, so I don't feel like posting scans, nor am I capable of. I don't have access to a scanner.

Originally posted by Naija boy
He didnt create it on the fly. We dont know exactl how he created it so it does not count as evidence of his superior transmutation abilities

Please show the scans of Orion creatin brandnew motherboxes out of thin air midbattle or GTFO here with that.

And once again, I didnt say that surfer would win because of transmutation alone but rather thanks to a combination of superior abilities of which transmutation is one of them.

I know, I NEVER said he created it on the fly. Though, the best evidence of any New God creating tech is that it's an extension.

And what are these "superior" abilities you talking about? Speed? I've already told you Orion can and HAS countered speed. Hell, even Iron Man with the Mother Box has done so as well.

Originally posted by cloud102
Where is your evidence? Surfer is faster? Where? Surfer is more versatile? Where? We've been debating Orion for awhile now, so I don't feel like posting scans, nor am I capable of. I don't have access to a scanner.

SS has faster travel speed, combat related speed easily goes to Orion though. From what i know, SS can intiate fast attacks with the aid of his board but is not a fast mover by his own merit.

^you're still on that?

even after being banned you have to go there again.

?

Originally posted by cloud102
Where is your evidence? Surfer is faster? Where? Surfer is more versatile? Where? We've been debating Orion for awhile now, so I don't feel like posting scans, nor am I capable of. I don't have access to a scanner.

Surfer is faster because of feats like blitzing multiple targets on numerous occasions, evading and attacking deathurge at FTL speed etc. If u want scans of these instances no problem

Versatility-Since it would be pointless to name evry power surfer has, ill summarize it by saying that Surfer has used his creative powers far more than orion (im sure even u must agree with that) but if u dont then i can easily provide scans of surfer, evolvin planets, transforming the universal level energy of the unilord from psychic to cosmic energy, synthesizing the odinforce Binding beings to eco systems, transmuting people into his board, creatiing illusions, taking people to the astral plane etc. Now im sure orion has instances of him doing showing impressive versatility as well but its certainly not as recurrin as SS' nor is it on as high a level.

Originally posted by cloud102

And what are these "superior" abilities you talking about? Speed? I've already told you Orion can and HAS countered speed. Hell, even Iron Man with the Mother Box has done so as well.

Iron man with the motherbox did not suddenly become as fast as flash. He was able to detect flash but that does not mean there speed suddenly became equal.

Anyhow by superior abilities im referring to SS superior, speed, versatility, durability, mental abilities, offensive output etc.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer is faster because of feats like blitzing multiple targets on numerous occasions, evading and attacking deathurge at FTL speed etc. If u want scans of these instances no problem

Versatility-Since it would be pointless to name evry power surfer has, ill summarize it by saying that Surfer has used his creative powers far more than orion (im sure even u must agree with that) but if u dont then i can easily provide scans of surfer, evolvin planets, transforming the universal level energy of the unilord from psychic to cosmic energy, synthesizing the odinforce Binding beings to eco systems, transmuting people into his board, creatiing illusions, taking people to the astral plane etc. Now im sure orion has instances of him doing showing impressive versatility as well but its certainly not as recurrin as SS' nor is it on as high a level.

Blitzing stationary targets while using his board, and FTL blitz on deathurge lol.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer is faster because of feats like blitzing multiple targets on numerous occasions, evading and attacking deathurge at FTL speed etc. If u want scans of these instances no problem

Versatility-Since it would be pointless to name evry power surfer has, ill summarize it by saying that Surfer has used his creative powers far more than orion (im sure even u must agree with that) but if u dont then i can easily provide scans of surfer, evolvin planets, transforming the universal level energy of the unilord from psychic to cosmic energy, synthesizing the odinforce Binding beings to eco systems, transmuting people into his board, creatiing illusions, taking people to the astral plane etc. Now im sure orion has instances of him doing showing impressive versatility as well but its certainly not as recurrin as SS' nor is it on as high a level.

So has Orion. And his speed was described as ftl! Check out New Gods earier runs, where Orion took down a buch of DS's guards with super speed. And these SAME guards were much faster than even Superman.

I agree about versatility, but Orion has shown no limits as well. Including creating illusions (like you said above), creating the Genesis Box to warp reality, and bringing back a city to opperational levels.

That and brining back his Astro Harness, Mother Box, and Guantlets as weapons and aid in battle.

Surfer

Originally posted by cloud102
So has Orion. And his speed was described as ftl! Check out New Gods earier runs, where Orion took down a buch of DS's guards with super speed. And these SAME guards were much faster than even Superman.

I agree about versatility, but Orion has shown no limits as well. Including creating illusions (like you said above), creating the Genesis Box to warp reality, and bringing back a city to opperational levels.

That and brining back his Astro Harness, Mother Box, and Guantlets as weapons and aid in battle.

In the instance u are referring to was orion actually indicated to be movinga t faster than light in that particular battle instance? Because in surfers fight against deathure he did indicate he was moving faster than light.

Also i thought we had passed this issue of the genesis box? We know that Orion did not create it on the fly and so in this scenario is irrelevant as he would not be able to replicate such.

SS was not moving FTL against Deathure, dont even know why a forum myth like that constantly gets mentioned.

Originally posted by Naija boy
In the instance u are referring to was orion actually indicated to be movinga t faster than light in that particular battle instance? Because in surfers fight against deathure he did indicate he was moving faster than light.

Also i thought we had passed this issue of the genesis box? We know that Orion did not create it on the fly and so in this scenario is irrelevant as he would not be able to replicate such.

Basically in the Orion respect thread. He's chasing Mister Miracle.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/Orion/orionvsblackracer.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
In the instance u are referring to was orion actually indicated to be movinga t faster than light in that particular battle instance? Because in surfers fight against deathure he did indicate he was moving faster than light.

Also i thought we had passed this issue of the genesis box? We know that Orion did not create it on the fly and so in this scenario is irrelevant as he would not be able to replicate such.

BTW, I don't have Rock of Ages with me, but the poster stated that in the story, Orion carries the Genesis Box all the time. I'm trying to find the scans of this, so be patient.

Originally posted by Makky
SS was not moving FTL against Deathure, dont even know why a forum myth like that constantly gets mentioned.

Arent u supposed to be new? How would u know about these "forum myths"? I wonder.

Coulden't Surfer just make Radion?

Been browsing other forums, I've been a lurker for awhile and it isn' the first time I've heard it....but anyways plz stay on topic thanks.

Originally posted by Priest
Coulden't Surfer just make Radion?

A rare substance from a different dimension that probably requires some preperation in it's process of creation, somehow I doubt SS will scan for this and instantly be endowed witht he specs to create it. By that logic, we could also assume Orion could harness the same energy output as he used when recreating the universe into a concussive blast of energy lol.

Sup Galen

Surfer..he's just better at everything..

Originally posted by Priest
Coulden't Surfer just make Radion?

Good point. I can see that. Orion's survival depends on how the MB works. He's been killed by it and he's healed from Radion as well.

Originally posted by Makky
A rare substance from a different dimension that probably requires some preperation in it's process of creation, somehow I doubt SS will scan for this and instantly be endowed witht he specs to create it. By that logic, we could also assume Orion could harness the same energy output as he used when recreating the universe into a concussive blast of energy lol.
Surfer has feats of him using cosmic awareness and thinking in super speed, he wouldn't need preparation to generate radion. He has instantly created and change matter effortlessly in comics. Yes radion is a foreign supstance to the marvel universe, but in the Cannon Avengers vs Justice league Radioactive man was able to generate k-nite another foregin substance to the MU, just by changing up some wave lengths (something like that)..
With that said The Silver Surfer is well would be well adapt in exploiting the New God's weakness.

Originally posted by Priest
Surfer has feats of him using cosmic awareness and thinking in super speed, he wouldn't need preparation to generate radion. He has instantly created and change matter effortlessly in comics. Yes radion is a foreign supstance to the marvel universe, but in the Cannon Avengers vs Justice league Radioactive man was able to generate k-nite another foregin substance to the MU, just by changing up some wave lengths (something like that)..
With that said The Silver Surfer is well would be well adapt in exploiting the New God's weakness.

Don't forget, though, that Orion has his own awareness. The Mother Box has given him battle tips as well and could reverse what the Surfer is doing.

It constantly communicates with Orion during battle and heals him. Check out the Weapon from the Old God storyline.

SS takes the MB and slaps it on his arm

What then?

Originally posted by Mindset
SS takes the MB and slaps it on his arm

What then?

Well, you need to have a special relationship for each Mother Box. Beleve it or not, but the MB has REJECTED even Orion. It takes time for the MB to even help you.

Originally posted by Priest
Surfer has feats of him using cosmic awareness and thinking in super speed, he wouldn't need preparation to generate radion. He has instantly created and change matter effortlessly in comics. Yes radion is a foreign supstance to the marvel universe, but in the Cannon Avengers vs Justice league Radioactive man was able to generate k-nite another foregin substance to the MU, just by changing up some wave lengths (something like that)..
With that said The Silver Surfer is well would be well adapt in exploiting the New God's weakness.

Personally I don't think SS coul recreat a foreign substance instantly, we would also need to completly overlook Orion's own speed to assume SS would even get the intial drop. What we know is that SS and Orion have very quick flight devices, we also know both have ultalized the speed of there respective devices for offensive blitz agaisnt opponents. The biggest difference for me is that if the quarters are cut close, the fight drastically changes to Orion's favor....a stomp IMO. Orion's energy output is enough to stalemate SS blast, and while Radion is a viable tactic I just dont think SS would be able to recreate faster then what Orion's speed is at. Not to mention Orion could also use his own tranmutation abilities in conjunction with his harness to create a a concussive blast comparable to a genis box.

Originally posted by Makky
Personally I don't think SS coul recreat a foreign substance instantly, we would also need to completly overlook Orion's own speed to assume SS would even get the intial drop. What we know is that SS and Orion have very quick flight devices, we also know both have ultalized the speed of there respective devices for offensive blitz agaisnt opponents. The biggest difference for me is that if the quarters are cut close, the fight drastically changes to Orion's favor....a stomp IMO. Orion's energy output is enough to stalemate SS blast, and while Radion is a viable tactic I just dont think SS would be able to recreate faster then what Orion's speed is at. Not to mention Orion could also use his own tranmutation abilities in conjunction with his harness to create a a concussive blast comparable to a genis box.

Do you have Rock Of Ages with you? Can you post the scans? I haven't read that storyline in a while. Someone stated that he always carries that device. Is this true?

Originally posted by cloud102
Do you have Rock Of Ages with you? Can you post the scans? I haven't read that storyline in a while. Someone stated that he always carries that device. Is this true?

I'm pretty sure a good buddy of mine still has it kicking around but unfortunatly I don't have a scanner either. From what I remember he does always carry the device with him but it's been awhile since I picked it up, gotta check up on it now lol.

SS wins 8/10.

Surfer 8/10... without having to use Radion.

Radion is a non-issue. Only the New Gods know about it or have access to it.

And get that cosmic awareness shit out of here. Surfer's CA is not going to suddenly inform him of a substance from a dimension beyond his comprehension or how to create it. Even in New God comics, Radion is very rare. As previously mentioned, Orion has tanked a few shots of it.

The Genesis Box.......is just an ordinary motherbox. Orion modified it abit, but it's really just a motherbox at heart.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Radion is a non-issue. Only the New Gods know about it or have access to it.

And get that cosmic awareness shit out of here. Surfer's CA is not going to suddenly inform him of a substance from a dimension beyond his comprehension or how to create it. Even in New God comics, Radion is very rare. As previously mentioned, Orion has tanked a few shots of it.

The Genesis Box.......is just an ordinary motherbox. Orion modified it abit, but it's really just a motherbox at heart.
What makes you think that it would be beyond the comprehension of someone like Surfer, who has had Cosmic Awareness for centuries, visited countless dimesions of virtually every type, and has either been made one with the Universe or turned into his own universe(depending on how you interpret it) by LT?

So trick do u have any scans of Orion creatin motherboxes out of thin air?

P.S- cloud 102, i just skimmed through JLA rock of ages and i didnt see anything to suggest that Orion even created the genesis box at all.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Radion is a non-issue. Only the New Gods know about it or have access to it.

And get that cosmic awareness shit out of here. Surfer's CA is not going to suddenly inform him of a substance from a dimension beyond his comprehension or how to create it. Even in New God comics, Radion is very rare. As previously mentioned, Orion has tanked a few shots of it.

The Genesis Box.......is just an ordinary motherbox. Orion modified it abit, but it's really just a motherbox at heart.

Can you post the scans of ROA?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Radion is a non-issue. Only the New Gods know about it or have access to it.

And get that cosmic awareness shit out of here. Surfer's CA is not going to suddenly inform him of a substance from a dimension beyond his comprehension or how to create it. Even in New God comics, Radion is very rare. As previously mentioned, Orion has tanked a few shots of it.

The Genesis Box.......is just an ordinary motherbox. Orion modified it abit, but it's really just a motherbox at heart.

Actually, didn't Orion survive a nuc combined with Radion in Simonson's run? Shows how good his durability is. Surviving his own weakness.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/e24de751.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
What makes you think that it would be beyond the comprehension of someone like Surfer, who has had Cosmic Awareness for centuries, visited countless dimesions of virtually every type, and has either been made one with the Universe or turned into his own universe(depending on how you interpret it) by LT?

So it's in ur opinion SS can recreate a very rare substance in a insanly fast amount of time before a opponent of Orion's speed could act. It isn't a easy fight either way,if we are going to assume SS can suddenly create "radion"then its only fair to assume Orion has the energy manipulation to create a device of the power quality of a motherbox. In conjunction with his harness, its also perfectly logical to assume he could harness this energy offensivly into a concussive blast.

loool wut? ITs clear that someone is baked

If were going to go by every bluemoon feat of SS and assume the best about him then why not give Orion the same treatment. Personally I think its a pretty even fight, how it can be see as a stomp in favor of either opoonent is beyond me.

Slig who had vast tranmutation powers, planetary even, had no effect on Orion. I see it as almost dead even myself.

Originally posted by Makky
So it's in ur opinion SS can recreate a very rare substance in a insanly fast amount of time before a opponent of Orion's speed could act. It isn't a easy fight either way,if we are going to assume SS can suddenly create "radion"then its only fair to assume Orion has the energy manipulation to create a device of the power quality of a motherbox. In conjunction with his harness, its also perfectly logical to assume he could harness this energy offensivly into a concussive blast.

I never said that, I said he'd take 8/10 without having to bother with Radion(Orion could probably make a show of it though). As far as I'm concerned, not enough concrete evidence exist on either side to make a definite claim. I can see reasonable arguments from both sides to support their case, it's just a matter of which you'd rather believe.

But just for those seeking examples, Mephisto used Surfer's Power Cosmic to repair/recreate a bizarre alien spaceship from another universes because Surfer's power was better at that kind of thing than Mephisto's own, so I'd say the evidence is slightly more in favor of him being able to do it successfully than there is to the contrary(still not enough to be certain though).

Originally posted by darthgoober

But just for those seeking examples, Mephisto used Surfer's Power Cosmic to repair/recreate a bizarre alien spaceship from another universes because Surfer's power was better at that kind of thing than Mephisto's own

Ur talkin of the weapon zero(devils reign) comic right?

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ur talkin of the weapon zero(devils reign) comic right?
Yep.

Originally posted by cloud102
Actually, didn't Orion survive a nuc combined with Radion in Simonson's run? Shows how good his durability is. Surviving his own weakness.

http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v58/Desaad/e24de751.jpg the text is hard do read..
can you please re-post that with improved quality?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said that, I said he'd take 8/10 without having to bother with Radion(Orion could probably make a show of it though). As far as I'm concerned, not enough concrete evidence exist on either side to make a definite claim. I can see reasonable arguments from both sides to support their case, it's just a matter of which you'd rather believe.

But just for those seeking examples, Mephisto used Surfer's Power Cosmic to repair/recreate a bizarre alien spaceship from another universes because Surfer's power was better at that kind of thing than Mephisto's own, so I'd say the evidence is slightly more in favor of him being able to do it successfully than there is to the contrary(still not enough to be certain though).

Were talking about a different company and a higher vibrational world, new genis is beyond the scope of this reality. IMO the odds are 2 stacked agaisnt SS being successful in this and even if he is I doubt the process is fast enough to catch Orion off gaurd. Regardless I think a 8/10 is a tremendous downplay of Orion's own feats and powerset but whatever to each his own. I think if both characters are written at full capcity, a well written fight would be fairly even with a slight advantage to Orion on the account of the superior stats and MA ability.

Originally posted by Makky
Were talking about a different company and a higher vibrational world, new genis is beyond the scope of this reality. IMO the odds are 2 stacked agaisnt SS being successful in this and even if he is I doubt the process is fast enough to catch Orion off gaurd. Regardless I think a 8/10 is a tremendous downplay of Orion's own feats and powerset but whatever to each his own. I think if both characters are written at full capcity, a well written fight would be fairly even with a slight advantage to Orion on the account of the superior stats and MA ability.
Feel free to think that. Like I said either is theoretically possible, it just seems slightly more likely to me that Surfer will be able to since his power's recreated exotic substances from other universes before with ease.

And I don't see the 8/10 being an easy fight for Norrin, just the inevitable conclusion. Savage Hulk beats Thing 9-10/10 but it's almost never easy. Like I said I'm sure Orion can make a show of it. Surfer's just got too much going for him in speed/reflexes and fights in a far more effective manner than Orion IMO. Orion will try to mix it up or just blast away, Surfer will dodge and contain him in hardened energy or something like that.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Feel free to think that. Like I said either is theoretically possible, it just seems slightly more likely to me that Surfer will be able to since his power's recreated exotic substances from other universes before with ease.

And I don't see the 8/10 being an easy fight for Norrin, just the inevitable conclusion. Savage Hulk beats Thing 9-10/10, but if comics has shown us one thing it's that it's almost never easy. Surfer's just got too much going for him in speed/reflexes and fights in a far more effective manner than Orion IMO. Orion will try to mix it up or just blast away, Surfer will dodge and contain him in hardened energy or something like that.

Like I said above, Orion's character has been fleshed out a lot more. Orion IS definitely the better fighter and strategist. Hell, he can always rely on the Mother Box for strategies as well. Check out Simonson's Orion run for examples.

I see it 5/10 or sleight edge to Orion. He has more going for him when we consider all the tech.

Originally posted by cloud102
Like I said above, Orion's character has been fleshed out a lot more. Orion IS definitely the better fighter and strategist. Hell, he can always rely on the Mother Box for strategies as well. Check out Simonson's Orion run for examples.

I see it 5/10 or sleight edge to Orion. He has more going for him when we consider all the tech.
I have little doubt that Orion is a better fighter, but that doesn't make him a more effective fighter. Orion's most likely to try to mix it up or blast away, Surfer's likely to come up with some off the wall trick to put him down that saves time.

And what edges do you see Orion's tech giving him? I don't think I've ever seen a single feat from Orion w/Motherbox that was beyond the abilities of Surfer. On the other hand I've seen Surfer pull off some stuff on the fly that I can't picture Orion pulling off.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I have little doubt that Orion is a better fighter, but that doesn't make him a more effective fighter. Orion's most likely to try to mix it up or blast away, Surfer's likely to come up with some off the wall trick to put him down that saves time.

And what edges do you see Orion's tech giving him? I don't think I've ever seen a single feat from Orion w/Motherbox that was beyond the abilities of Surfer. On the other hand I've seen Surfer pull off some stuff on the fly that I can't picture Orion pulling off.

With the experience Orion has (since he was a child), I'd say he is a lot more effective. He is the God Of War (and has even stated that he knows the art of war from across the universe and beyond). So, I doubt Surfer can best him here.

Orion's plan against Arnicus Wolfram can attest for this, IMO.

And like I have shown above speed isn't a factor. Orion has followed Miracle with Black Racer's equipment before. And we all know how fast BR can go.

In terms of tech, New Gods are capable of creating all types of shit. Check out Seven Soldiers. I believe it was the New Gods who created Zor. One of the Imperishable Weapons. Capable of taking on Spectre himself. Orion augmenting the Mother Box was capable of creating the Genesis Box. A weapon that converted the universe into pure energy. Then the Mother Box that also allows Orion to counter most attacks. Like Transmutation for example.

Plus moving in and out of time freely. So, most of Surfer's tricks, I can see Orion countering with said tech.

Orion may be the God of War but he is more likely to use the direct physical approach or simply blast away than anythin else. Even with all his supposed experience he doesnt use his more exotic abilities near as much as surfer does. And thats what matters here.

Orion chasin Mr Miracle around at some unknown speed hardly indicates anything at all. It certainly wasnt mentioned that they were moving at FTL or even close to it. I can brin up scans of quasar chasing surfer but that certainly isnt a good indicator of quasars speed in or out of battle. So that scan in no way disproves surfers speed and manovrability advantage. Not even close

Also now can someone please post a scan in Rock of ages where it is mentioned that orion creates or augments the genesis box? Cuz i did not see such an instance anywhere in the arc. Infact here where Orion uses the Genesis box nothing is mentioned of him creating it/augmenting it or always carrying it around with him at all.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_JLA14pg23.jpg

Orion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.

Yeah.. Myth busted..lol

Originally posted by Naija boy
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_JLA14pg23.jpg

Orion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.

While you're right on the money, I'm not even sure why that was brought up - considering Rock of Ages takes place as an alternate and future event, and wouldn't apply to current Orion anyway. Now, there must've been a reason (probably a bad one), but I'm not going to read through it to find out why.


Surfer beats Orion as badly as he did in The Hunger. The end.

Originally posted by cloud102
With the experience Orion has (since he was a child), I'd say he is a lot more effective. He is the God Of War (and has even stated that he knows the art of war from across the universe and beyond). So, I doubt Surfer can best him here.
Champion's got the same kind of hype and he's still not more effective than Surfer in combat. We can compare feats to see who is more likely to pull off an exotic win if you want though.

Originally posted by cloud102
Orion's plan against Arnicus Wolfram can attest for this, IMO.
Details?

Originally posted by cloud102
And like I have shown above speed isn't a factor. Orion has followed Miracle with Black Racer's equipment before. And we all know how fast BR can go.
No we don't, what speed feats did Miracle pull off with the equipment?

Originally posted by cloud102
In terms of tech, New Gods are capable of creating all types of shit. Check out Seven Soldiers. I believe it was the New Gods who created Zor. One of the Imperishable Weapons. Capable of taking on Spectre himself. Orion augmenting the Mother Box was capable of creating the Genesis Box. A weapon that converted the universe into pure energy. Then the Mother Box that also allows Orion to counter most attacks. Like Transmutation for example.

Plus moving in and out of time freely. So, most of Surfer's tricks, I can see Orion countering with said tech.
Orion doesn't have access to all that for this fight, all he has is his standard tech.

Originally posted by Enyalus
While you're right on the money, I'm not even sure why that was brought up - considering Rock of Ages takes place as an alternate and future event, and wouldn't apply to current Orion anyway. Now, there must've been a reason (probably a bad one), but I'm not going to read through it to find out why.



Exactly. It wouldnt even be applicable even if it had been relevant to this match(which it isnt). The reason it was brought up was to provide an example of Orions transmutation abilities. People were actuall claiming that Orion used his transmutation powers to create the Genesis box which then remade the universe. Fortunately i happened to have Rock of ages lying around on my computer( thank heaven for downloads).

Originally posted by Naija boy
Orion may be the God of War but he is more likely to use the direct physical approach or simply blast away than anythin else. Even with all his supposed experience he doesnt use his more exotic abilities near as much as surfer does. And thats what matters here.

Orion chasin Mr Miracle around at some unknown speed hardly indicates anything at all. It certainly wasnt mentioned that they were moving at FTL or even close to it. I can brin up scans of quasar chasing surfer but that certainly isnt a good indicator of quasars speed in or out of battle. So that scan in no way disproves surfers speed and manovrability advantage. Not even close

Also now can someone please post a scan in Rock of ages where it is mentioned that orion creates or augments the genesis box? Cuz i did not see such an instance anywhere in the arc. Infact here where Orion uses the Genesis box nothing is mentioned of him creating it/augmenting it or always carrying it around with him at all.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_JLA14pg23.jpg

Orion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.

I believe he did create the Genesis Box on his own. Seeing the nature of The New Gods tech. Each Mother Box is programmed to obey only it's master. And seeing as Orion never claimed that he DIDN'T make the Mother Box, most people I know find that he did augment the Mother Box.

Originally posted by Enyalus
While you're right on the money, I'm not even sure why that was brought up - considering Rock of Ages takes place as an alternate and future event, and wouldn't apply to current Orion anyway. Now, there must've been a reason (probably a bad one), but I'm not going to read through it to find out why.


Surfer beats Orion as badly as he did in The Hunger. The end.

There is only one batch of New Gods. I believe this was stated in Seven Soldiers. Similar to Living Tribunal.

Originally posted by cloud102
I believe he did create the Genesis Box on his own. Seeing the nature of The New Gods tech. Each Mother Box is programmed to obey only it's master. And seeing as Orion never claimed that he DIDN'T make the Mother Box, most people I know find that he did augment the Mother Box.

lol what? That is simply fallacious logic. After ive proven that ur premise is indeed baseless and as a result of misrepresenttion of whats on panel u have resorted to wishful thinking. Orion said that the genesis box was programmed to recreate the universe. By not claiming HE was the one that programmed it, he was obviously implying that someone else programmed it. There is nothing to even remotely sugest that he programmed it. I dont care if most people u know believe he augmented the motherbox. That is the argumentum ad populum fallacy You expect us to ignore clear on panel evidence because people u know belive orion created the Genesis box. That is just pure nonsense. Orion didnt create anything and that scenario in NO WAY shows any display of his personal transmutation powers. To think it does even after the evidence is simply indulging in useless speculation and is quite laughable.

Originally posted by Naija boy
lol what? That is simply fallacious logic. After ive proven that ur premise is indeed baseless and as a result of misrepresenttion of whats on panel u have resorted to wishful thinking. Orion said that the genesis box was programmed to recreate the universe. By not claiming HE was the one that programmed it, he was obviously implying that someone else programmed it. There is nothing to even remotely sugest that he programmed it. I dont care if most people u know believe he augmented the motherbox. That is the argumentum ad populum fallacy You expect us to ignore clear on panel evidence because people u know belive orion created the Genesis box. That is just pure nonsense. Orion didnt create anything and that scenario in NO WAY shows any display of his personal transmutation powers. To think it does even after the evidence is simply indulging in useless speculation and is quite laughable.

What you seem to dismiss is how the New Gods use their tech in the first place. Each MB is designed by his or her own user. Orion never said that someone else created the Genesis Box, he said it was programmed, it could of been him or he could have TOLD the MB to do it. Like he does ALL THE TIME.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Feel free to think that. Like I said either is theoretically possible, it just seems slightly more likely to me that Surfer will be able to since his power's recreated exotic substances from other universes before with ease.

And I don't see the 8/10 being an easy fight for Norrin, just the inevitable conclusion. Savage Hulk beats Thing 9-10/10 but it's almost never easy. Like I said I'm sure Orion can make a show of it. Surfer's just got too much going for him in speed/reflexes and fights in a far more effective manner than Orion IMO. Orion will try to mix it up or just blast away, Surfer will dodge and contain him in hardened energy or something like that.

SS has versatility, but Orion is the better fighter. Orion has some of the best MA in the DCU,so his application of speed and power is incredibly precise and effective...and for a character who's stats allowed him to stalemate a sun amped superman thats a pretty damn good thing. That's the benefits of aquiring MA, it ultalizes ur body to its full effectivness since u have to tune every physical attribute to its maxim.

Orion's gear is just the icing on the cake, and while not as versatile as SS he does have some pretty slick feats to accompany him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He can't, because technically Champion IS the "Greatest Martial Artist in the Universe".

And yet, he has loosed to people who aren't even MA's. Champion isn't a very good example.


Yeah he set a nice trap with some prep, but how does this attest to his being more effective in combat?

I hardly see Surfer using similar tactics. Most of the time he's just using energy blasts as well. And most of his "versatility" won't work on Orion.


Lightspeed is nothing to Surfer. That guy moves and tracks things that move at THOUSANDS of times the speed of light.

Well, BR has never been clocked, but it's been shown that he moves many, many times faster than the speed of light. Orion was shown moving faster than the speed of light even without his harness.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Orion may be the God of War but he is more likely to use the direct physical approach or simply blast away than anythin else. Even with all his supposed experience he doesnt use his more exotic abilities near as much as surfer does. And thats what matters here.

Orion chasin Mr Miracle around at some unknown speed hardly indicates anything at all. It certainly wasnt mentioned that they were moving at FTL or even close to it. I can brin up scans of quasar chasing surfer but that certainly isnt a good indicator of quasars speed in or out of battle. So that scan in no way disproves surfers speed and manovrability advantage. Not even close

Also now can someone please post a scan in Rock of ages where it is mentioned that orion creates or augments the genesis box? Cuz i did not see such an instance anywhere in the arc. Infact here where Orion uses the Genesis box nothing is mentioned of him creating it/augmenting it or always carrying it around with him at all.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll121/kingaholu/th_JLA14pg23.jpg

Orion even mentions that the box is programmed to rearrange the universe and remake it and since he is the last true warrior it is fit that he should strike with the ultimate weapon. He never says that he programmed it or created it or anything even close to some of the claims being made in this thread.

What mobolity and speed advantage does SS have that u r referring to, the only thing fast about SS is his board and he only used it briefly to blitz a couple of stationary battleships. On that note, didn't Orion fly out from the new gensis all the way into earth in a very short amount of time or something similar to that...certainly a FTL speedfeat in it's self considering where new gensis is located. Besides that, when has SS ever used speed in a battle?

The only thing's I've seen him do is intiate fast projectiles(due to his board once again mind you)and nagivate well at high speeds. It really isn't anything beyond the scope of Orions abilities, with the harness Orion can take flight with very sophisticaed mobility and exceed FTL travel as well. Most importanty, like with SS the harness acts as a extension of his mobolity and he can apply the speed of his harness for effective offensive blitzes or defensive counterattacks....in in reality orion and SS are pretty evenly matched with no real glarring advantages over the other.

Originally posted by Makky
SS has versatility, but Orion is the better fighter. Orion has some of the best MA in the DCU,so his application of speed and power is incredibly precise and effective...and for a character who's stats allowed him to stalemate a sun amped superman thats a pretty damn good thing. That's the benefits of aquiring MA, it ultalizes ur body to its full effectivness since u have to tune every physical attribute to its maxim.

Orion's gear is just the icing on the cake, and while not as versatile as SS he does have some pretty slick feats to accompany him.
Orion may be the more skilled fighter, but that doesn't mean that he's the BETTER fighter. Surfer doesn't have to be good at H2H(even though he is) because he actually USES his versatility in combat, that's what I meant by saying he was the more effective fighter.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Orion may be the more skilled fighter, but that doesn't mean that he's the BETTER fighter. Surfer doesn't have to be good at H2H(even though he is) because he actually USES his versatility in combat, that's what I meant by saying he was the more effective fighter.

Orion has used versatility as well. Time, transmutation, control of all forces, force fields, healing, telepathy, etc...

And are you actually saying Silver Surfer is BETTER fighter? How so? Can you provide some examples? Cause I'm coming up with a blank.

Originally posted by cloud102
Well, BR has never been clocked, but it's been shown that he moves many, many times faster than the speed of light. Orion was shown moving faster than the speed of light even without his harness.
Catching BR isn't the feat though is it? I thought you said it was Mr. Miracle with BR's equipment? Just because I'm driving the Batmobile, it doesn't mean that I can take corners as fast as Batman.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Catching BR isn't the feat though is it? I thought you said it was Mr. Miracle with BR's equipment? Just because I'm driving the Batmobile, it doesn't mean that I can take corners as fast as Batman.

No, but that is why Scott used his equipment in the first place. To do everything (including escaping Orion) in a timely fashion. Plus, It was shown that they were moving beyond light speed. I'll see if I can get those scans up.

Surfer wins, easily.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Orion may be the more skilled fighter, but that doesn't mean that he's the BETTER fighter. Surfer doesn't have to be good at H2H(even though he is) because he actually USES his versatility in combat, that's what I meant by saying he was the more effective fighter.

SS is a pretty terrible MA, if he was turned back into a human I doubt he would even be able to defend agaisnt a nameless thug with a gun. SS relies on his strong suit which is versatility, that isn't some admission that is he is the better fighter. A good fighter ultalizes all there abilities to maxim capcity, IMO Orion is the better fighter because in addition to superior MA he also has a equally effecient application of his gear. SS is a bit 1-deminisonal, he has mastered his PC but he is completly garnage physically....a bit like tony stark in the sense that tony knows his suit but physically he can't fight for shit.

Originally posted by cloud102
What you seem to dismiss is how the New Gods use their tech in the first place. Each MB is designed by his or her own user. Orion never said that someone else created the Genesis Box, he said it was programmed, it could of been him or he could have TOLD the MB to do it. Like he does ALL THE TIME.

What are u talking about? Orion could have "told the MB" to do what? Regardless, Motherboxes have been given to people numerous times. I also remember Orion being given a fatherbox during Walt simonsons run. So just because a person is using a motherbox does NOT mean they created it themselves. Further the Genesis Box was described as the "Ultimate weapon". This indicates that it had been designed previously for a specific purpose and NOT by orion for personal use. Orion then explains that as the last warrior it is fitting that he should be the one to strike with it. That sentence also implies that the Genesis box was NOT designed by Orion but was rather a reserved weapon to be used by anyone at the appropriate time. ALL THE ON PANEL EVIDENCE whether implied, or outright stated supports the premise that the Genesis box was NOT created by Orion. The only thing that have to the contrary are logical fallacies and outlandish speculations.

All the panel evidence supports Orion's creation of the MB.

Originally posted by Makky
SS is a pretty terrible MA, if he was turned back into a human I doubt he would even be able to defend agaisnt a nameless thug with a gun. SS relies on his strong suit which is versatility, that isn't some admission that is he is the better fighter. A good fighter ultalizes all there abilities to maxim capcity, IMO Orion is the better fighter because in addition to superior MA he also has a equally effecient application of his gear. SS is a bit 1-deminisonal, he has mastered his PC but he is completly garnage physically....a bit like tony stark in the sense that tony knows his suit but physically he can't fight for shit.

If he was a good MA, why didn't he stop BP from using an armbar?

Originally posted by Makky
SS is a pretty terrible MA, if he was turned back into a human I doubt he would even be able to defend agaisnt a nameless thug with a gun. SS relies on his strong suit which is versatility, that isn't some admission that is he is the better fighter. A good fighter ultalizes all there abilities to maxim capcity, IMO Orion is the better fighter because in addition to superior MA he also has a equally effecient application of his gear. SS is a bit 1-deminisonal, he has mastered his PC but he is completly garnage physically....a bit like tony stark in the sense that tony knows his suit but physically he can't fight for shit. Physically, he took on the Hulk while weakened and did a fine job. You remind me of someone.

edit

Originally posted by cloud102
Orion has used versatility as well. Time, transmutation, control of all forces, force fields, healing, telepathy, etc...

And are you actually saying Silver Surfer is BETTER fighter? How so? Can you provide some examples? Cause I'm coming up with a blank.
He uses versatility via MB outside of combat to foil traps and such, but he's not really the type to spring something creative in the middle of a fight. If Orion squares off against Supes or were to square off against the Hulk, a punch or blast would be the most likely result with a brawl following, put Surfer in the same situation and he'd mess with his opponent's internal energy stores and not have to bother with the rest.

If by better you mean more effective then yes. See the above example.

Originally posted by cloud102
No, but that is why Scott used his equipment in the first place. To do everything (including escaping Orion) in a timely fashion. Plus, It was shown that they were moving beyond light speed. I'll see if I can get those scans up.
Again, Lightspeed is nothing to Surfer.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What are u talking about? Orion could have "told the MB" to do what? Regardless, Motherboxes have been given to people numerous times. I also remember Orion being given a fatherbox during Walt simonsons run. So just because a person is using a motherbox does NOT mean they created it themselves. Further the Genesis Box was described as the "Ultimate weapon". This indicates that it had been designed previously for a specific purpose and NOT by orion for personal use. Orion then explains that as the last warrior it is fitting that he should be the one to strike with it. That sentence also implies that the Genesis box was NOT designed by Orion but was rather a reserved weapon to be used by anyone at the appropriate time. ALL THE ON PANEL EVIDENCE whether implied, or outright stated supports the premise that the Genesis box was NOT created by Orion. The only thing that have to the contrary are logical fallacies and outlandish speculations.

Yes, Orion tells the MB to do certain things. You know like heal him, transmute objects, tracking people, etc... He does it both in a telepath state and outright talks to the MB. The same could have been done there. Though it wouldn't have been the first time Orion created technology.

But go ahead and believe what you want.

Originally posted by Makky
SS is a pretty terrible MA, if he was turned back into a human I doubt he would even be able to defend agaisnt a nameless thug with a gun. SS relies on his strong suit which is versatility, that isn't some admission that is he is the better fighter. A good fighter ultalizes all there abilities to maxim capcity, IMO Orion is the better fighter because in addition to superior MA he also has a equally effecient application of his gear. SS is a bit 1-deminisonal, he has mastered his PC but he is completly garnage physically....a bit like tony stark in the sense that tony knows his suit but physically he can't fight for shit.
Nah, Surfer's shown MA skills against Hulk, Lunatik, Abomination, and Thanos, all of whom have more skills than a nameless thug.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, Lightspeed is nothing to Surfer.

Same with the BR.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He uses versatility via MB outside of combat to foil traps and such, but he's not really the type to spring something creative in the middle of a fight. If Orion squares off against Supes or were to square off against the Hulk, a punch or blast would be the most likely result with a brawl following, put Surfer in the same situation and he'd mess with his opponent's internal energy stores and not have to bother with the rest.

If by better you mean more effective then yes. See the above example.

Orion has absorbed energy, created force fields, and commanded other types of energy in battle via the Astro Force. He's pretty effective.

Originally posted by cloud102
Same with the BR.
Orion didn't catch BR.

SS wins most of the time, his speed insures that orion wont be able to touch him, now if surfer gets close enough for orion to get physical, he would lose.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Orion didn't catch BR.

I never said he did, but to actually chase him through tubes, they were going many times faster than the speed of light. Even if Surfer is faster, it's not by leaps and bounds.

Originally posted by cloud102
Orion has absorbed energy, created force fields, and commanded other types of energy in battle via the Astro Force. He's pretty effective.
I don't doubt that it's come up once or twice, but more often than not he thinks and fights like a flying brick. Do you have access to scans, because we can compare feats if you like so we can find out who's more likely to use something other than a punch or generic energy blast to finish a fight.

Originally posted by cloud102
I never said he did, but to actually chase him through tubes, they were going many times faster than the speed of light. Even if Surfer is faster, it's not by leaps and bounds.
You said before that it mentioned them going lightspeed, when did cover them going many times it?

Orion wins! MB can absorb SS blast a redirect it or store it like it did with the Omega Effect. MB can also create a force field.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't doubt that it's come up once or twice, but more often than not he thinks and fights like a flying brick. Do you have access to scans, because we can compare feats if you like so we can find out who's more likely to use something other than a punch or generic energy blast to finish a fight.

I don't doubt Surfer has done more exotic abilities. I mean, he DID have his own series that lasted a good long time and he has been shown more frequent than Orion. My argument is that those versatility tricks won't necessarily work on Orion with the Mother Box and Astro Force in play.

Though, what people don't like to point out is that Orion has indeed used versatiliy PLENTY of times.

Originally posted by cloud102
Yes, Orion tells the MB to do certain things. You know like heal him, transmute objects, tracking people, etc... He does it both in a telepath state and outright talks to the MB. The same could have been done there. Though it wouldn't have been the first time Orion created technology.

But go ahead and believe what you want.

Okay let me go over this in as simple terms as i can. Yes Orion does tell his MB to do certain things, like to heal him transmute objects etc. Thats good for him. However in this case there is ABSOLUTELY nothing on panel to suggest that he created OR programmed it. From the literal meaning to the implied meaning of the dialogue on panel there is NO indication of such. Only through baseless speculation and wishful thinking can anyone arrive at that conclusion. Fortunately that sort of thing is not an acceptable debating style on this forum. Further een if we subscribe to that extremely false belief, it would I]still be irrelevant because the circumstances surrounding the boxes creation would still be unknown. It would therefore have no bearing in this match as it would tell us nothing of Orions personal abilities.

Note thats if we decide to go along with a premise thats already false in the first place. That entire line of argument therefore is just pointless.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Physically, he took on the Hulk while weakened and did a fine job. You remind me of someone.

Physically Thing has stood up agaisnt the hulk and so has Logan, hell even she-hulk has hanged in agaisnt hulk pretty good....not to mention it was a weaken hulk anyways.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You said before that it mentioned them going lightspeed, when did cover them going many times it?

Once I look through the book, I'll try and post scans from my friends computer. But they were indeed going much faster than light.

Not the first time for Orion as he was shown to fly ftl in Pollaks run.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Nah, Surfer's shown MA skills against Hulk, Lunatik, Abomination, and Thanos, all of whom have more skills than a nameless thug.

There all brawling bricks, they have absolutly no notable MA talent.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Okay let me go over this in as simple terms as i can. Yes Orion does tell his MB to do certain things, like to heal him transmute objects etc. Thats good for him. However in this case there is ABSOLUTELY nothing on panel to suggest that he created OR programmed it. From the literal meaning to the implied meaning of the dialogue on panel there is NO indication of such. Only through baseless speculation and wishful thinking can anyone arrive at that conclusion. Fortunately that sort of thing is not an acceptable debating style on this forum. Further een if we subscribe to that extremely false belief, it would I]still be irrelevant because the circumstances surrounding the boxes creation would still be unknown. It would therefore have no bearing in this match as it would tell us nothing of Orions personal abilities.

Note thats if we decide to go along with a premise thats already false in the first place. That entire line of argument therefore is just pointless.

Agree to disagree. I respect your stance, though.

Originally posted by cloud102
Once I look through the book, I'll try and post scans from my friends computer. But they were indeed going much faster than light.

Not the first time for Orion as he was shown to fly ftl in Pollaks run.

Mind you the FTL disscussion is pointless because SS doesn't use speed in fights anyways.

Originally posted by Makky
Mind you the FTL disscussion is pointless because SS doesn't use speed in fights anyways.

Like the Flash? Most of the time he doesn't.

Originally posted by cloud102
I don't doubt Surfer has done more exotic abilities. I mean, he DID have his own series that lasted a good long time and he has been shown more frequent than Orion. My argument is that those versatility tricks won't necessarily work on Orion with the Mother Box and Astro Force in play.

Though, what people don't like to point out is that Orion has indeed used versatiliy PLENTY of times.
So you acknowledge that Surfer has more exotic abilities and that he actually USES those exotic abilities to take out his opponents indirectly more often than Orion does, so how are you trying to justify your stance that Orion's the better fighter? I'm not talking about skill, I'm talking about who's more likely to find a way to capitalize on a "cheap" path to victory.

Originally posted by Makky
There all brawling bricks, they have absolutly no notable MA talent.
They have more on panel H2H skills than a nameless thug. We can compare feats if you want...

Originally posted by cloud102
Like the Flash? Most of the time he doesn't.

SS isn't a speedster, his speed is determined by a external device such as his board. Movement superspeed is a attribute of speedsters like from what you would se with such characters like Supes,WW,Flash,QS and Runner. Technically, Orion has movement superspeed as his battle with mr.miracle showed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
They have more on panel H2H skills than a nameless thug. We can compare feats if you want...

You're honestly making a case that SS has MA?

Originally posted by darthgoober
So you acknowledge that Surfer has more exotic abilities and that he actually USES those exotic abilities to take out his opponents indirectly more often than Orion does, so how are you trying to justify your stance that Orion's the better fighter? I'm not talking about skill, I'm talking about who's more likely to find a way to capitalize on a "cheap" path to victory.

I think we're talking about 2 different things. When I say better, I mean more skilled in the MA's department. So, IF the battle gets close, Orion would have the better odds, IMO.

Originally posted by cloud102
Once I look through the book, I'll try and post scans from my friends computer. But they were indeed going much faster than light.

Not the first time for Orion as he was shown to fly ftl in Pollaks run.
If you give me the issue number I'll take a look.

edit

Originally posted by cloud102
I think we're talking about 2 different things. When I say better, I mean more skilled in the MA's department. So, IF the battle gets close, Orion would have the better odds, IMO.
You must have missed this post...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Orion may be the more skilled fighter, but that doesn't mean that he's the BETTER fighter. Surfer doesn't have to be good at H2H(even though he is) because he actually USES his versatility in combat, that's what I meant by saying he was the more effective fighter.

Good fighters use everything they got, SS only has his exotic powers....physically he has no versatility.

Originally posted by Makky
You're honestly making a case that SS has MA?
I'm just refuting your ridiculous claims that Surfer, Abomination, Green Scar, Lunatik, and Thanos all have less MA skill than a nameless street thug. Like I said, we can compare feats if you want...

Originally posted by Makky
Good fighters use everything they got, SS only has his exotic powers....physically he has no versatility.
He's got super strength, speed, and durability. That's about as versatile as you can get physically...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm just refuting your ridiculous claims that Surfer, Abomination, Green Scar, Lunatik, and Thanos all have less H2H skill than a nameless street thug. Like I said, we can compare feats if you want...

So you think that if SS was barred from the PC and returned to being a normal man...he could take on a random thug?

Edit:Well to each his own, u got ur beliefs and I got mine so lets just agree to disagree.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If you give me the issue number I'll take a look.

I think it was the start of the series.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You must have missed this post...

I just skim a lot of posts, so yeah, I missed it. But these cheap ways to a win doesn't have me convinced that Surfer could take Orion.

Originally posted by Makky
So you think that if SS was barred from the PC and returned to being a normal man...he could take on a random thug?
Not if the random thug was. . . MATCHES MALONE!

Originally posted by Makky
So you think that if SS was barred from the PC and returned to being a normal man...he could take on a random thug?

Edit:Well to each his own, u got ur beliefs and I got mine so lets just agree to disagree.

We've seen him take an armbar from a human. I bet Karate Kid would own Surfer.

Hell, even the cosmic ninja (name was escaping me) had a good tussle with Surfer.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not if the random thug was. . . MATCHES MALONE!

Or this dude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko

Originally posted by Makky
Or this dude http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedor_Emelianenko

nah, this dude!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MidnightSun01.JPG