Sentry vs Alpha Flight

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golem370
Can he bring down this team?

Alpha Flight
Guardian- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Guardian_I

Sasquatch- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Sasquatch_I

Snowbird- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Snowbird

Box(Jefferies)- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Box_IV

Diamond Li- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Diamond_Lil

Aurora- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Aurora

Northstar- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Northstar

Puck- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Puck_I

Yukon Jack- http://alphanex.alphaflight.net/index.php/Yukon_Jack

Bouboumaster
Deffinitively...

not.

george '06
sentry pwns easily

-K-M-
Originally posted by george '06
sentry pwns easily

lulz, Jeffries controls the Chrysler Building to knock out Sentry...again.

Starscream M
Originally posted by -K-M-
lulz, Jeffries controls the Chrysler Building to knock out Sentry...again. are you being serious? erm

golem370
Fight does not take place in New York lol Nashville

Mindset
Sentry takes most of them out, but eventually loses, probably to Snowbird.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Starscream M
are you being serious? erm

It was meant as a joke, but Sentry did get knocked out by the Chrysler Building not to long ago

iceman24567
I don't know much about Alpha Flight but i doubt they can take Goldy on a side note i love Canadian pancakes and their cheesecake.

-K-M-
Originally posted by iceman24567
I don't know much about Alpha Flight but i doubt they can take Goldy on a side note i love Canadian pancakes and their cheesecake.

Alpha Flight rountinely takes on far more bigger threats then Sentry. Hell even Guardian was built to take on Galactus

Sentry is very over-rated, he was easily evaded by Iron Fist, got knocked out by the C.A.P robot, Chrysler Building and an amped up Ms.Marvel and needed help to lift the Helicarrier. Even teenage Namor was taking it to him not to long ago. erm

iceman24567
Originally posted by -K-M-
Alpha Flight rountinely takes on far more bigger threats then Sentry. Hell even Guardian was built to take on Galactus

Sentry is very over-rated, he was easily evaded by Iron Fist, got knocked out by the C.A.P robot, Chrysler Building and an amped up Ms.Marvel and needed help to lift the Helicarrier. Even teenage Namor was taking it to him not to long ago. erm Umm fine but Canada still has pretty good cheesecake big grin

tdazz
Originally posted by iceman24567
Umm fine but Canada still has pretty good cheesecake big grin

As well as maple syrup and bacon. big grin

iceman24567
Originally posted by tdazz
As well as maple syrup and bacon. big grin Thats a no brainer though wink

tdazz
Originally posted by iceman24567
Thats a no brainer though wink

Poutine is pretty good too. Oh and beer, can't forget about beer. beer

golem370
The whole list of Alpha Flight members on this team couldn't lift a Helicarrier all together

-K-M-
Originally posted by golem370
The whole list of Alpha Flight members on this team couldn't lift a Helicarrier all together

That's not true

Oh and here is Snowbird's latest apperance

Snowbird
(Post-Resurrection)
---------------------------------------------
Pantheon of Gods
----------------------------------------------
Incredible Hercules #119 (Vol.1) :
Here the God Squad get to the Skrull Gods palace, but it is being guarded by pantheons of Gods from 978 past and present Imperial Worlds that the Skrulls have took over. The team is completely outnumbered and outgunned as even Demorgorge the God Eater was struggling fighting them. It was Snowbird taking the form of Neooqtoq a Great Beast and was taking them all on by herself

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg14.jpg
2. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg15.jpg
3. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg16.jpg
4. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg18.jpg
5. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg19.jpg
6. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg20.jpg
7. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg21.jpg
8. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg22.jpg

tkitna
Sentry would kill all of them easily unless Snowbird took the persoana of one of the Great Beasts.

-K-M-
Originally posted by tkitna
Sentry would kill all of them easily unless Snowbird took the persoana of one of the Great Beasts.

An atomic bomb blast seriously rocked Sentry before, and Jeffries can do them at will.

golem370
A helicarrier weights like 100,000tons I don't think they could lift that.

-K-M-
Originally posted by golem370
A helicarrier weights like 100,000tons I don't think they could lift that.

They most definetly can using their abilities

Also Sentry DIDN'T lift the Helicarrier himself anyways

Mindset
Originally posted by -K-M-
Alpha Flight rountinely takes on far more bigger threats then Sentry. Hell even Guardian was built to take on Galactus

Sentry is very over-rated, he was easily evaded by Iron Fist, got knocked out by the C.A.P robot, Chrysler Building and an amped up Ms.Marvel and needed help to lift the Helicarrier. Even teenage Namor was taking it to him not to long ago. erm

Sentry is only semi competent when he is bloodlusted.

C.A.P. was beating everyone, not that bad to be temporarily koed, especially since like I said, Sentry isn't competent unless he wants to be.

If I remember correctly Guardian was only a temporary nuisance to a weak Galactus.

But anyway, Sentry takes out most of Alpha Flight before losing. Unless Songbird gets rocked before she realizes Sentry is a threat. Or Sentry could act like an idiot, which he does in almost every fight, and gets beaten early. smile

-K-M-
Originally posted by Mindset
Sentry is only semi competent when he is bloodlusted.

C.A.P. was beating everyone, not that bad to be temporarily koed, especially since like I said, Sentry isn't competent unless he wants to be.

If I remember correctly Guardian was only a temporary nuisance to a weak Galactus.

But anyway, Sentry takes out most of Alpha Flight before losing. Unless Songbird gets rocked before she realizes Sentry is a threat. Or Sentry could act like an idiot, which he does in almost every fight, and gets beaten early. smile

He was KO'ed twice by it

No, Guardian actually knocked him out. While BOX IV, Vindicator, Quasar, Her, Sersi, Hercules, Vision, etc. working together couldn't do anything to him

I diagree with that as well, as Aurora has powers that can affect one's mind and Sentry has a very frail mind to begin with. Plus Guardian has the ability to literally shut off a person's mind once he attains their frequency as he has done so before. Aurora/Northstar recently got upgraded where they could reach the speed of light, and can cause molecules to tear apart and explode (Aurora power), BOX is just an overall beast and then you have Sasquatch and the most deadly Snowbird.

CaptainStoic
The Collective took them all out except for Snowbird, and Saquatch, but Sasquatch was in loads of trouble, and if I remember correctly was knocked out as well.

Sentry was taking him on all alone, and the only reason he lost was because of bfr. For a moment it looked as if Bob was making headway against him.

-K-M-
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
The Collective took them all out except for Snowbird, and Saquatch, but Sasquatch was in loads of trouble, and if I remember correctly was knocked out as well.

Sentry was taking him on all alone, and the only reason he lost was because of bfr. For a moment it looked as if Bob was making headway against him.

Except as stated in the comics they wern't looking for a fight, as shown they were talking to him and he attacked killing them when their guard was down.

Only lost because of BFR? Errr?

Mindset
Originally posted by -K-M-
He was KO'ed twice by it

No, Guardian actually knocked him out. While BOX IV, Vindicator, Quasar, Her, Sersi, Hercules, Vision, etc. working together couldn't do anything to him

I diagree with that as well, as Aurora has powers that can affect one's mind and Sentry has a very frail mind to begin with. Plus Guardian has the ability to literally shut off a person's mind once he attains their frequency as he has done so before. Aurora/Northstar recently got upgraded where they could reach the speed of light, and can cause molecules to tear apart and explode (Aurora power), BOX is just an overall beast and then you have Sasquatch and the most deadly Snowbird.

Well either Galactus was EXTREMELY weakened, or that is PIS.

Aurora can affect ones mind how, doing anything more than casting illusions could result in Sentry just losing control, not sure how that would help the team win.

What people's mind has Guardian shut down, because Sentry is an energy manipulator and someone with a lot of raw psychic powers.

I know Aurora and NS can reach lightspeed, but that really doesn't mean much when Sentry can go well beyond lightspeed. I didn't know about the Aurora being able to tear molecules apart, would that even work on Sentry?

And this is considering Sentry is not fighting like he did against WWH, if he does he could wreck most of the team before they get a chance to do anything imo.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Mindset
Well either Galactus was EXTREMELY weakened, or that is PIS.

Aurora can affect ones mind how, doing anything more than casting illusions could result in Sentry just losing control, not sure how that would help the team win.

What people's mind has Guardian shut down, because Sentry is an energy manipulator and someone with a lot of raw psychic powers.

I know Aurora and NS can reach lightspeed, but that really doesn't mean much when Sentry can go well beyond lightspeed. I didn't know about the Aurora being able to tear molecules apart, would that even work on Sentry?

And this is considering Sentry is not fighting like he did against WWH, if he does he could wreck most of the team before they get a chance to do anything.

He was weakened, as noted in the comic but what was impressive all those other people couldn't do what Guardian did in a single attack.

Using hypnotic light which have worked on magical beings before, and the last time someone used an "illusion" on Sentry he fled the Earth crying

The telepath Headlok, he freed everyone's mind he took control of including Alpha Flight, Fantastic Four and an entire village and put up telepath blocks so they couldn't be mind-controlled again. Also in the same story, Guardian unleashed an E-M wave that affected multiple people's motor functions in a split second. Also Guardian is a highly skilled energy manipulator and he was the only one who could power Galactus's tech and find the right frequency even though Quasar, BOX IV, and Her were there. He even humilated Dr.Doom by instantly shutting down his shields instantly

He wouldn't be able to do that on Earth, Aurora/Northstar have some sort of shield that protects them and the environment while going lightspeed on Earth. Why wouldn't it?

So Sentry would be allowed to fight serious, while Alpha Flight can't? They have shown to be more serious and more tactic smart then Sentry ever has and have taken down far more powerful and far more serious threats then Sentry

EDIT: Forgot to mention BOX IV and Guardian could replicate the CLOC/Iron Man incident.

Mindset
Originally posted by -K-M-
He was weakened, as noted in the comic but what was impressive all those other people couldn't do what Guardian did in a single attack.

Using hypnotic light which have worked on magical beings before, and the last time someone used an "illusion" on Sentry he fled the Earth crying

The telepath Headlok, he freed everyone's mind he took control of including Alpha Flight, Fantastic Four and an entire village and put up telepath blocks so they couldn't be mind-controlled again. Also in the same story, Guardian unleashed an E-M wave that affected multiple people's motor functions in a split second. Also Guardian is a highly skilled energy manipulator and he was the only one who could power Galactus's tech and find the right frequency even though Quasar, BOX IV, Her were there.

He wouldn't be able to do that on Earth, Aurora/Northstar have some sort of shield that protects them and the environment while going lightspeed on Earth. Why wouldn't it?

So Sentry would be allowed to fight serious, while Alpha Flight can't? They have shown to be more serious and more tactic smart then Sentry ever has and have taken down far more powerful and far more serious threats then Sentry

Yea, I pretty much said illusions would work, that's why I mentioned it...


Why wouldn't it work? Well Sentry's durability. Do you have scans of her using it on someone with superhuman durability?


Yes, because I said Alpha Flight wouldn't be fighting seriously where in my post? Sentry is leagues faster than everyone on the team, which means if he is trying to kill them most of them would be put down fairly fast.

How would they know about Cloc?

-K-M-
Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, I pretty much said illusions would work, that's why I mentioned it...
Why wouldn't it work? Well Sentry's durability. Do you have scans of her using it on someone with superhuman durability?

Yes, because I said Alpha Flight wouldn't be fighting seriously where in my post? Sentry is leagues faster than everyone on the team, which means if he is trying to kill them they would be most of them would be put down fairly fast.

Sorry thought you said they wouldn't work. My bad

Just on Taurus from the Zodiac, but they describe the power later on.

EDIT: Whoops, here's the scan..

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/WeaponX01-10.jpg

Yet you keep saying if Sentry fights serious he would kill them, but AF has a better track record against more dangerous oppoents. The problem with Sentry is we really have yet to see what he really can do, but as of late his credibility has been drastically going down. Not really, as traveling speed does not equal fighting speed and Sentry really hasn't shown any impressive fighting speed. Like I mentioned earlier even Iron Fist easily avoided his attack not to long ago

Guardian has tapped into Roxxon networks all over the world before, and he and BOX would pick up CLOC's signal talking to Sentry and counter.

CaptainStoic
Terrax's power cosmic as well as others work on the molecular level, I think that avenue of attack is a shot in the dark.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Except as stated in the comics they wern't looking for a fight, as shown they were talking to him and he attacked killing them when their guard was down.

Only lost because of BFR? Errr?

And if they were looking for a fight, and ready to defend, do you see them doing much better?

When I read the Avengers in which the Sentry took the battle to the Collective being, it looked as if he was doing a great job in my eyes, and from what I saw, he was gaining ground on the Collective. Does anyone have any scans? It is a certainty that the Sentry has undenaibly more power than at the very least 90% of anyone that has ever been a member of Alpha Flight.

To be honest he has the power to scoop up any member incapable of flight, and throw them into space.

-K-M-
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Terrax's power cosmic as well as others work on the molecular level, I think that avenue of attack is a shot in the dark.

And if they were looking for a fight, and ready to defend, do you see them doing much better?

When I read the Avengers in which the Sentry took the battle to the Collective being, it looked as if he was doing a great job in my eyes, and from what I saw, he was gaining ground on the Collective. Does anyone have any scans? It is a certainty that the Sentry has undenaibly more power than at the very least 90% of anyone that has ever been a member of Alpha Flight.

To be honest he has the power to scoop up any member incapable of flight, and throw them into space.

Did Terrax use that ability? No, so how does that make sense?

yes, especailly since Shaman alone had absorbed Newfoundland, an atomic bomb blast, Alpha Flight, Avengers, the People's Procate into his pouch in seconds. He also has spells that can stop people from flying, time freeze just by saying "shush", turn the liquids in a persons body into crystals, create magical shields that exceed over a mile long, etc, etc.

He wasn't gaining ground on the Collective at all he needed help and that still wasn't enough. 90%? You need to read more Alpha Flight as AF had members that were going to be used to take over the multi-verse ie. Witchfire.

The likes of Diamond Lil, Yukon Jack (not sure if his bone attack would work, but with it he has killed Diamond Lil before and now that's a feat) and Puck would do nothing to him, but Sasquatch could very well go toe to toe with him if teenage Namor could. Then you have BOX who can transform building into a giant robot suit, and we have seen how Sentry has dealt with building and giant robots before (to be fair C.A.P robot was a beast though).

Mindset
Originally posted by -K-M-
Sorry thought you said they wouldn't work. My bad

Just on Taurus from the Zodiac, but they describe the power later on.

EDIT: Whoops, here's the scan..

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/WeaponX01-10.jpg

Yet you keep saying if Sentry fights serious he would kill them, but AF has a better track record against more dangerous oppoents. The problem with Sentry is we really have yet to see what he really can do, but as of late his credibility has been drastically going down. Not really, as traveling speed does not equal fighting speed and Sentry really hasn't shown any impressive fighting speed. Like I mentioned earlier even Iron Fist easily avoided his attack not to long ago

Guardian has tapped into Roxxon networks all over the world before, and he and BOX would pick up CLOC's signal talking to Sentry and counter.

Looks like she speeds things up, w/e that means. Can you describe it more, sounds kinda vague.

No, I'm not saying he would kill the whole team, but the majority of the team(Puck, Aurora, NS, Diamond, Yukon Jack, possibly Jack) could be taken down fairly quickly imo.

In fighting speed he was dominating IM, in fighting speed he was fighting evenly with Genis.

So Box and Guardian would pick up on Cloc and realize they need to overload it on a whim, or do they have to actively search for it?

btw I'm not saying Sentry would win.

CaptainStoic
Every Hero and Villain has lost cred over a span of time, recently Superman was put down by one hit. If we are going by best showings Sasquatch wouldn't last very long against King Hulk, nor would Namor of any age.

Was Namor a teen in his Invader days? I thought that he was a full grown man, as he is very long lived. All the same Namor didn't really have a long fight with the Sentry in the comic that you brought up, because if he did, and Bob was outputting the kind of power that he unleashed on King Hulk, Namor would perish.

I have read quite a few Alpha Flight comics but i will not claim to be a guru, and yes my numbers are pretty close to being correct 90% is a justidiable number when you take into account all of the members that have been part of Alpha Flight.

-K-M-
Originally posted by Mindset
Looks like she speeds things up, w/e that means. Can you describe it more, sounds kinda vague.

No, I'm not saying he would kill the whole team, but the majority of the team(Puck, Aurora, NS, Diamond, Yukon Jack, possibly Jack) could be taken down fairly quickly imo.

In fighting speed he was dominating IM, in fighting speed he was fighting evenly with Genis.

So Box and Guardian would pick up on Cloc and realize they need to overload it on a whim, or do they have to actively search for it?

btw I'm not saying Sentry would win.

1. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d187/A_Flight/X-MenThe198Files.jpg
2. http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f188/A_Flight5/allnewohotmuaz01416gc.jpg

Aurora and Northstar I highly doubt he could take them out quickly, as even before their many upgrades they have shown they can dish out blows that hurt Savage Hulk. Also "possibly Jack"? Who you talking about?

His pure strength dominated Iron Man not really his speed, and he didn't show any speed when he fought Genis. Also you just gave me another tactic they could use..BFR.

Automatically search for it, as they have picked up random signal before and countered it. Even invisable things Guardian picked up the frequency of when he wasn't even searching for it.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Every Hero and Villain has lost cred over a span of time, recently Superman was put down by one hit. If we are going by best showings Sasquatch wouldn't last very long against King Hulk, nor would Namor of any age.

Was Namor a teen in his Invader days? I thought that he was a full grown man, as he is very long lived. All the same Namor didn't really have a long fight with the Sentry in the comic that you brought up, because if he did, and Bob was outputting the kind of power that he unleashed on King Hulk, Namor would perish.

I have read quite a few Alpha Flight comics but i will not claim to be a guru, and yes my numbers are pretty close to being correct 90% is a justidiable number when you take into account all of the members that have been part of Alpha Flight.

Well depends on Sasquatch as the more he loses control to Tanaraq he even could solo Sentry if he transforms into the Great Beast

Yes he was a teen, and it was long enough to show the likes of Namor could still go toe to toe with him

Talisman can control Elder Gods, Guardian beat Galactus, Witchfire was multi-versal, Earthmover is an Omega level mystic, Snowbird is a goddess and can turn into Elder Gods, Shaman is just an overall beast, Marrina in her true form was taking on the Avengers (which included Thor, and Captain Marvel ie. Pulsar), Saint Elmo was said to be 'old when the world was young', Sasquatch can become an Elder God, Persuasion very well might even be able to take control of him (she's Purple Man's daughter) same with Murmur, etc, etc

george '06
Guardian

Sasquatch
Snowbird
Box
Diamond
Aurora
Northstar
Puck
Yukon Jack

half the people you listed arent in this fight

-K-M-
Originally posted by george '06
Guardian

Sasquatch
Snowbird
Box
Diamond
Aurora
Northstar
Puck
Yukon Jack

half the people you listed arent in this fight

That's nice, but you missed the point

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
It is a certainty that the Sentry has undenaibly more power than at the very least 90% of anyone that has ever been a member of Alpha Flight.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
I have read quite a few Alpha Flight comics but i will not claim to be a guru, and yes my numbers are pretty close to being correct 90% is a justidiable number when you take into account all of the members that have been part of Alpha Flight.

george '06
there have been a sh*t load of people in alpha flight though

-K-M-
Originally posted by george '06
there have been a sh*t load of people in alpha flight though

No there hasn't, unless you include Gamma, Beta and Omega Flight, which you shouldn't

OneDumbG0
My first impression was that Sentry would have a very difficult time here. But then I just keep thinking about how the Collective curbstomped Alpha Flight. And Sentry was doin pretty good against him. Way better than Alpha Flight did anyway. The teams are a bit different, but Snowbird ought to make up for Shaman's absence. Leanin towards Sentry until I see more.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
My first impression was that Sentry would have a very difficult time here. But then I just keep thinking about how the Collective curbstomped Alpha Flight. And Sentry was doin pretty good against him. Way better than Alpha Flight did anyway. The teams are a bit different, but Snowbird ought to make up for Shaman's absence. Leanin towards Sentry until I see more.

Ummm...what? It was shown Alpha Flight had their guard down and the Collective attacked. They wern't looking for a fight and they were trying to talk to him and then BAM! he attacked in a cheap shot. Hell even Iron Man was briefly taking it to the Collective himself, so by following that logic Iron Man > Alpha Flight (which is wrong and silly).

Sentry got rocked by an amped up Ms.Marvel, so why people think Sentry is unbeatable is beyond me.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Ummm...what? It was shown Alpha Flight had their guard down and the Collective attacked. They wern't looking for a fight and they were trying to talk to him and then BAM! he attacked in a cheap shot. Hell even Iron Man was briefly taking it to the Collective himself, so by following that logic Iron Man > Alpha Flight (which is wrong and silly).

Sentry got rocked by an amped up Ms.Marvel, so why people think Sentry is unbeatable is beyond me. Ummm...what? I have no recollection of Alpha Flight ever lowering their defenses. They may have attempted diplomacy, but it's their own fault if they were overwhelmed by the Collective's opening salvo and proof against their durability against that power level. Iron Man and Ms. Marvel got straight up owned in a similar manner. I don't see how Iron Man did any better getting overloaded and stripped of his armor like it was a hooker's g-string. Either way, Sentry was able to match that power level. And personally, I don't believe that Alpha Flight was foolish enough to lower all their defenses. They knew they were confronting a being that had destroyed an entire town and emitting insane power levels. But I'm totally open to your interpretation if you have some scans that proves otherwise.

And Sentry got knocked unconscious by an atomic-warhead-amped Ms. Marvel, after having fought the Molemen's monsters and Shultron and all of her Iron Man suits for five issues straight. Not only that, he was doing this all while holding back the entire time because Ms. Marvel ordered him not to kill Shultron. And what people seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel also ambushed him with a cheapshot. And what people also seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel is already fugging strong and durable as hell even at normal levels. Why people continue to hold this against Sentry is beyond me.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ummm...what? I have no recollection of Alpha Flight ever lowering their defenses. They may have attempted diplomacy, but it's their own fault if they were overwhelmed by the Collective's opening salvo and proof against their durability against that power level. Iron Man and Ms. Marvel got straight up owned in a similar manner. I don't see how Iron Man did any better getting overloaded and stripped of his armor like it was a hooker's g-string. Either way, Sentry was able to match that power level. And personally, I don't believe that Alpha Flight was foolish enough to lower all their defenses. They knew they were confronting a being that had destroyed an entire town and emitting insane power levels. But I'm totally open to your interpretation if you have some scans that proves otherwise.

And Sentry got knocked unconscious by an atomic-warhead-amped Ms. Marvel, after having fought the Molemen's monsters and Shultron and all of her Iron Man suits for five issues straight. Not only that, he was doing this all while holding back the entire time because Ms. Marvel ordered him not to kill Shultron. And what people seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel also ambushed him with a cheapshot. And what people also seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel is already fugging strong and durable as hell even at normal levels. Why people continue to hold this against Sentry is beyond me.

Actually yeah they did lower their guard they tried to talk to him and asked him to turn around they had no intention of fighting and then the Collective attacked. Except they wouldn't even know the full details of what has been going on as all the Collective feats happened very quick. Yet they did far better then what Alpha Flight did, so you honestly believe they didn't lower their guard and were in fight mode? prove it, because Sasquatch started off "anyone we know?" the Collective stopped moving "Did he stop? I think he stopped" and then Walter asked him to "Excuse me!! Sir? We're Alpha Flight's preimere super-team. On behalf of the Canadian government we'd like to ask you to turn your naked self around and back away"...then BAM! the Collective attacked off-panel. Does that sound like they were in fight mode? Hell we don't even know what happened as in the handbooks for Puck II said she was killed with a "wave of nanotech scorpions". So for all we know they had an epic battle. Actually Iron Man in space was going one on one with the Collective, and Ms.Marvel was very crucial in beating him. The New Avengers beat the Collective, and Alpha Flight is vastly superior to them.

Yeah I know that hence why I said amped up, and a cheap shot eh? Kinda like what Collective did to Alpha Flight (hence why I brought it up). Sentry rountinely has lower feats that put him drastically down and even his high end feats are nothing Alpha Flight hasn't dealt with and prevailed against erm

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Actually yeah they did lower their guard they tried to talk to him and asked him to turn around they had no intention of fighting and then the Collective attacked. Except they wouldn't even know the full details of what has been going on as all the Collective feats happened very quick. Yet they did far better then what Alpha Flight did, so you honestly believe they didn't lower their guard and were in fight mode? prove it, because Sasquatch started off "anyone we know?" the Collective stopped moving "Did he stop? I think he stopped" and then Walter asked him to "Excuse me!! Sir? We're Alpha Flight's preimere super-team. On behalf of the Canadian government we'd like to ask you to turn your naked self around and back away"...then BAM! the Collective attacked off-panel. Does that sound like they were in fight mode? Hell we don't even know what happened as in the handbooks for Puck II said she was killed with a "wave of nanotech scorpions". So for all we know they had an epic battle. Actually Iron Man in space was going one on one with the Collective, and Ms.Marvel was very crucial in beating him. The New Avengers beat the Collective, and Alpha Flight is vastly superior to them.

Yeah I know that hence why I said amped up, and a cheap shot eh? Kinda like what Collective did to Alpha Flight (hence why I brought it up). Sentry rountinely has lower feats that put him drastically down and even his high end feats are nothing Alpha Flight hasn't dealt with and prevailed against erm So. In your interpretation, Alpha Flight is just plain dumb and turned off all powers and let down all defenses. Apparently they weren't in fight mode, they were in stupid mode. K. I mean, I can't really argue with you there since you know Alpha Flight better than I and it did all happen off-panel. As for me, I would actually give them some credit and say while they didn't want to fight, they were prepared for a fight and they were simply overwhelmed by the Collective's powers. The New Avengers used a plot device to gather the Collective's bio energy signatures. When they tried to battle him straight up, they got raped like Alpha Flight did.

And you may acknowledge that Ms. Marvel was amped up, but you didn't appear to acknowledge this:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
after having fought the Molemen's monsters and Shultron and all of her Iron Man suits for five issues straight. Not only that, he was doing this all while holding back the entire time because Ms. Marvel ordered him not to kill Shultron. And what people seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel also ambushed him with a cheapshot. And what people also seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel is already fugging strong and durable as hell even at normal levelsSentry, after fighting all that for five issues straight and being focused on ripping Shultron's head off and getting blindsided by an amped Ms. Marvel is hardly equatable to what happened to Alpha Flight. Alpha Flight was briefed that the entity had destroyed an entire town. The Collective was running straight towards them and Alpha Flight, being undistracted and looking straight at the Collective got raped. I'd hardly characterize that as being a cheap shot on equal footing with what happened to Sentry. Sentry's average feats put him at a consistent power level on par with the Collective and he took it straight to the Collective. The Collective anally raped Alpha Flight. Was it an ignominious defeat? Maybe. But I didn't write the comics, I just read em.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So. In your interpretation, Alpha Flight is just plain dumb and turned off all powers and let down all defenses. Apparently they weren't in fight mode, they were in stupid mode. K. I mean, I can't really argue with you there since you know Alpha Flight better than I and it did all happen off-panel. As for me, I would actually give them some credit and say while they didn't want to fight, they were prepared for a fight and they were simply overwhelmed by the Collective's powers. The New Avengers used a plot device to gather the Collective's bio energy signatures. When they tried to battle him straight up, they got raped like Alpha Flight did.

Apparently so as we don't see Shaman getting anything ready with his pouch which he always does, and Guardian and Vindicator didn't even have their shields activated (You can tell when their on). Puck is "invulnerable" and "nearly indestructable" yet he apparently died pretty quickly. Even Sasquatch was taking the leadership role of the team, when in fact it's Guardian who is the leader and has always talked first being the leader and all. Pretty much the same thing, they had their guard down as even Sasquatch was calling the Collective "Sir" and Walter survived the attack? There's people on the team far more durable then him, so him surviving while others didn't is silly. Not entirely as Iron Man and Sentry were dealing with them and even Iron Man got the better of one of the exchanges between the Collective. Alpha Flight is full of plot devices, and I'm not kidding especially with Shaman's pouch.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And you may acknowledge that Ms. Marvel was amped up, but you didn't appear to acknowledge this:
Sentry, after fighting all that for five issues straight and being focused on ripping Shultron's head off and getting blindsided by an amped Ms. Marvel is hardly equatable to what happened to Alpha Flight. Alpha Flight was briefed that the entity had destroyed an entire town. The Collective was running straight towards them and Alpha Flight, being undistracted and looking straight at the Collective got raped. I'd hardly characterize that as being a cheap shot on equal footing with what happened to Sentry. Sentry's average feats put him at a consistent power level on par with the Collective and he took it straight to the Collective. The Collective anally raped Alpha Flight. Was it an ignominious defeat? Maybe. But I didn't write the comics, I just read em.

No I know, but Sentry wasn't exactally showing wear and tare and he was in crazy mood because of his wife. Yeah it is the same thing not the circumstances, but the outcome of it merely being a cheap shot. Even Hulk has been one-shotted by Wrecker when Hulk's guard was down. Is Wrecker on the same level as Hulk? no way.

The Collective took out AF when they were unprepared and not exactally in bloodlust mode or even looked like a fight mode as they even asked him to turn around. If they knew he was a killer, you think AF would tell the Collective to turn around and go away? No, AF has never backed down from a fight even against Elder Gods, and Cosmic beings.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Apparently so as we don't see Shaman getting anything ready with his pouch which he always does, and Guardian and Vindicator didn't even have their shields activated (You can tell when their on). Puck is "invulnerable" and "nearly indestructable" yet he apparently died pretty quickly. Even Sasquatch was taking the leadership role of the team, when in fact it's Guardian who is the leader and has always talked first being the leader and all. Pretty much the same thing, they had their guard down as even Sasquatch was calling the Collective "Sir" and Walter survived the attack? There's people on the team far more durable then him, so him surviving while others didn't is silly. Not entirely as Iron Man and Sentry were dealing with them and even Iron Man got the better of one of the exchanges between the Collective. Alpha Flight is full of plot devices, and I'm not kidding especially with Shaman's pouch.

No I know, but Sentry wasn't exactally showing wear and tare and he was in crazy mood because of his wife. Yeah it is the same thing not the circumstances, but the outcome of it merely being a cheap shot. Even Hulk has been one-shotted by Wrecker when Hulk's guard was down. Is Wrecker on the same level as Hulk? no way.

The Collective took out AF when they were unprepared and not exactally in bloodlust mode or even looked like a fight mode as they even asked him to turn around. If they knew he was a killer, you think AF would tell the Collective to turn around and go away? No, AF has never backed down from a fight even against Elder Gods, and Cosmic beings. Most of everything you say is reasonable and in my mind true. Bendis apparently does not like high-level plot device magic. He nerfed Dr. Strange completely. And apparently, Shaman's pouch o tricks suffered the same fate. But I do disagree with a few things. I don't think they were completely letting their guard down. In my mind, Sasquatch calling him (and I'm paraphrasing), "flaming naked man," is less a product of lowering defenses and more a product of Bendis' quirky dialogue humor where people crack wise in dangerous situations. They knew that the Collective was the cause of the destruction of an entire town full of people. They knew that he was a killer.

And about shields being activated, it's arguable either way. I've been working on a respect thread for Dr. Doom, which is on the verge of completion. And through his 100+ appearances, writers and artists vary in whether Doom's forcefield or his armor is absorbing attacks. I wanted to separate all his forcefield scans from his armor durability's scans into neat piles and I just can't do it. Perhaps the art did not depict them in full defense mode, but by that same token, the art did not depict anything. It all happened off-panel. So you don't know that they didn't have the time to raise their defenses or mount a counter-attack. Either way, Sentry took on Collective's unmitigated power that was becoming more versatile and intense as the story went on. And that speaks volumes to me when I consider this scenario.

CaptainStoic
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ummm...what? I have no recollection of Alpha Flight ever lowering their defenses. They may have attempted diplomacy, but it's their own fault if they were overwhelmed by the Collective's opening salvo and proof against their durability against that power level. Iron Man and Ms. Marvel got straight up owned in a similar manner. I don't see how Iron Man did any better getting overloaded and stripped of his armor like it was a hooker's g-string. Either way, Sentry was able to match that power level. And personally, I don't believe that Alpha Flight was foolish enough to lower all their defenses. They knew they were confronting a being that had destroyed an entire town and emitting insane power levels. But I'm totally open to your interpretation if you have some scans that proves otherwise.

And Sentry got knocked unconscious by an atomic-warhead-amped Ms. Marvel, after having fought the Molemen's monsters and Shultron and all of her Iron Man suits for five issues straight. Not only that, he was doing this all while holding back the entire time because Ms. Marvel ordered him not to kill Shultron. And what people seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel also ambushed him with a cheapshot. And what people also seem to forget is that Ms. Marvel is already fugging strong and durable as hell even at normal levels. Why people continue to hold this against Sentry is beyond me.


Yup Yup!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Most of everything you say is reasonable and in my mind true. Bendis apparently does not like high-level plot device magic. He nerfed Dr. Strange completely. And apparently, Shaman's pouch o tricks suffered the same fate. But I do disagree with a few things. I don't think they were completely letting their guard down. In my mind, Sasquatch calling him (and I'm paraphrasing), "flaming naked man," is less a product of lowering defenses and more a product of Bendis' quirky dialogue humor where people crack wise in dangerous situations. They knew that the Collective was the cause of the destruction of an entire town full of people. They knew that he was a killer.

And about shields being activated, it's arguable either way. I've been working on a respect thread for Dr. Doom, which is on the verge of completion. And through his 100+ appearances, writers and artists vary in whether Doom's forcefield or his armor is absorbing attacks. I wanted to separate all his forcefield scans from his armor durability's scans into neat piles and I just can't do it. Perhaps the art did not depict them in full defense mode, but by that same token, the art did not depict anything. It all happened off-panel. So you don't know that they didn't have the time to raise their defenses or mount a counter-attack. Either way, Sentry took on Collective's unmitigated power that was becoming more versatile and intense as the story went on. And that speaks volumes to me when I consider this scenario.

This is what I see as well, Alpha Flight was mugged, and even though Shaman can do all of the things he has done with his mojo bag, he is still human, and his durability and physical capabilities can't be compared to the Sentry's.

The Sentry could be briefed on Alpha Flight, just like Alpha Flight would be briefed on him, and he could simply get rid of the most powerful people of the group at light speed. No one can take his speed away from him Bob was in Turkey saving the world from a natural disaster, and back so soon Lindy (his Wife) thought he had gone to the bathroom.

i can see Bob ending this in minutes if he knew what he was up against, and with Cloc in his head dictating highest threat level to lowest, I'd put my money on The Sentry any day of the week. I really don't see Sasquatch as a threat, as he could easily be grabbed by his foot and thrown to parts unknown, if not an orbittal bfr.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Most of everything you say is reasonable and in my mind true. Bendis apparently does not like high-level plot device magic. He nerfed Dr. Strange completely. And apparently, Shaman's pouch o tricks suffered the same fate. But I do disagree with a few things. I don't think they were completely letting their guard down. In my mind, Sasquatch calling him (and I'm paraphrasing), "flaming naked man," is less a product of lowering defenses and more a product of Bendis' quirky dialogue humor where people crack wise in dangerous situations. They knew that the Collective was the cause of the destruction of an entire town full of people. They knew that he was a killer.

And about shields being activated, it's arguable either way. I've been working on a respect thread for Dr. Doom, which is on the verge of completion. And through his 100+ appearances, writers and artists vary in whether Doom's forcefield or his armor is absorbing attacks. I wanted to separate all his forcefield scans from his armor durability's scans into neat piles and I just can't do it. Perhaps the art did not depict them in full defense mode, but by that same token, the art did not depict anything. It all happened off-panel. So you don't know that they didn't have the time to raise their defenses or mount a counter-attack. Either way, Sentry took on Collective's unmitigated power that was becoming more versatile and intense as the story went on. And that speaks volumes to me when I consider this scenario.

It sure didn't seem like they knew he was a killer with their comments and initial actions even telling the Collective to turn around and go away like they didn't have to deal with him.

When Guardian or Vindicator have their shields up it generally encases them in a yellow aura. Who knows what happened off-panel for all we know Guardian did better then Sentry, but thinking back there was one page that showed Guardian charging at the Collective. Yeah, but all the Collective was doing against Sentry was using basically brute strength, he didn't show that versatility when he fought him.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
This is what I see as well, Alpha Flight was mugged, and even though Shaman can do all of the things he has done with his mojo bag, he is still human, and his durability and physical capabilities can't be compared to the Sentry's.

The Sentry could be briefed on Alpha Flight, just like Alpha Flight would be briefed on him, and he could simply get rid of the most powerful people of the group at light speed. No one can take his speed away from him Bob was in Turkey saving the world from a natural disaster, and back so soon Lindy (his Wife) thought he had gone to the bathroom.

i can see Bob ending this in minutes if he knew what he was up against, and with Cloc in his head dictating highest threat level to lowest, I'd put my money on The Sentry any day of the week. I really don't see Sasquatch as a threat, as he could easily be grabbed by his foot and thrown to parts unknown, if not an orbittal bfr.

His internal durability no, but his spells they can as he has shown automatic shields before. Plus this time he would know he would be in a fight, and tehnically all he has to say is "Shush" and it's over.

He hasn't done anything like that in comics, so why would he do it here? Plus Alpha Flight has members that can go lightspeed themselves. Northstar was traveling the world in what looked to be in seconds in his Northstar mini. Even Guardian has gone faster then light and traveled thousands of years into the past

CLOC can be a weakness, which even Iron Man used against him and it's a tactic Guardian or BOX IV could repeat. Sasquatch isn't the threat the biggest ones are Shaman and Guardian.

tkitna
Is CLOC even around anymore?

Mindset
Shaman isn't in this fight

-K-M-
Originally posted by tkitna
Is CLOC even around anymore?

Good question, most likely still around but being ignored.

Originally posted by Mindset
Shaman isn't in this fight

Keep forgetting as the debate merged with Alpha Flight that fought the Collective, but Snowbird > Shaman anyways,

CaptainStoic
I have a question for you Mungi, in your honest opinion do you really think that the original Guardian could defeat Sentry?

I've always viewed him as a powerhouse but at a lower level, kind of like Booster Gold, or Ironman level. I've seen the respect thread that you contributed to, but I just can't see him on the Collective's level, and in that comic Sentry looked to be pushing him around, only to be bfr'd via wormhole, Sentry had a very good showing.

I read his fight with Terrax again, and Terrax wasn't holding back, he was going for the kill... he showed the same amount of effort (despite what some may think) and looked to be outputting more cosmic power than he did when he obliterated a planet.... Bob took it with a smile. Sentry is a team wrecker without a doubt.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
It sure didn't seem like they knew he was a killer with their comments and initial actions even telling the Collective to turn around and go away like they didn't have to deal with him.

When Guardian or Vindicator have their shields up it generally encases them in a yellow aura. Who knows what happened off-panel for all we know Guardian did better then Sentry, but thinking back there was one page that showed Guardian charging at the Collective. Yeah, but all the Collective was doing against Sentry was using basically brute strength, he didn't show that versatility when he fought him.It sure didn't seem like Spidey or Cage or Cap was serious at all when they were wrung through the Bendis mill-o-dialogue-fun either in their New Avengers appearances. Do you honestly think that Alpha Flight would be content with the Collective simply turning to the left and not crossing the border? That they would say to themselves, "Well... job well done. Let's go home and watch an Entourage DVD."

erm

And when Doom has his shields up it usually encases him in an aura also. But he's taken ridiculous damage to his armor that could only be blunted by his forcefields and point-blank contact shots that hit his armor actually hit his forcefield as indicated by the captions. It doesn't mean that if the forcefield is not drawn, that it is inactive. No matter what interpretation you side with, the Collective's actual attack on Alpha Flight was never depicted. So whether they had their shields up as common sense would dictate, or whether they completely lowered their defenses and treated the situation as a border crossing dispute as you seem to be arguing is complete speculation. Personally speaking, I think I'm giving Alpha Flight more credit than you are. I don't believe they would be nonchalant and careless in confronting a being that had destroyed an entire town's population and was crackling with unknown energy at several hundred mph.

RageOfTheGods
Mini Series Sentry wins this.......

His more inconsistent showings are confusing......the one who fought World War Hulk could win it but it would not be suprising if Alpha Flight took him down (A big factor for their win would be Snow Bird and her Great Beasts).....

-K-M-
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
I have a question for you Mungi, in your honest opinion do you really think that the original Guardian could defeat Sentry?

I've always viewed him as a powerhouse but at a lower level, kind of like Booster Gold, or Ironman level. I've seen the respect thread that you contributed to, but I just can't see him on the Collective's level, and in that comic Sentry looked to be pushing him around, only to be bfr'd via wormhole, Sentry had a very good showing.

I read his fight with Terrax again, and Terrax wasn't holding back, he was going for the kill... he showed the same amount of effort (despite what some may think) and looked to be outputting more cosmic power than he did when he obliterated a planet.... Bob took it with a smile. Sentry is a team wrecker without a doubt.

Depends, I don't see why Guardian couldn't replicate the Cloc feat especially since classic Guardian sans his upgrade hacked in and easily manipulated Plodex systems which years later Iron Man, Black Knight, Stingray, and Yellowjacket working together only understood part of the system

Guardian is above Iron Man, quite abit actually. Except their fight wasn't long and the AF fight with the Collective was off-panel so who knows what happened.

Yeah and? Terrax didn't even use the full power cosmic he tried to use his axe which Sentry stopped. Terrax has been owned badly by Thing and he was pissed off, Silver Surfer seriously owned him (worse then Sentry did), Terrax just has ALOT of low showings. Prove he was outputting more cosmic power when he destroyed the planet, because in Silver Surfer the "Effects" were bigger but the damage output wasn't that large when Terrax appeared.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It sure didn't seem like Spidey or Cage or Cap was serious at all when they were wrung through the Bendis mill-o-dialogue-fun either in their New Avengers appearances. Do you honestly think that Alpha Flight would be content with the Collective simply turning to the left and not crossing the border? That they would say to themselves, "Well... job well done. Let's go home and watch an Entourage DVD."

erm

And when Doom has his shields up it usually encases him in an aura also. But he's taken ridiculous damage to his armor that could only be blunted by his forcefields and point-blank contact shots that hit his armor actually hit his forcefield as indicated by the captions. It doesn't mean that if the forcefield is not drawn, that it is inactive. No matter what interpretation you side with, the Collective's actual attack on Alpha Flight was never depicted. So whether they had their shields up as common sense would dictate, or whether they completely lowered their defenses and treated the situation as a border crossing dispute as you seem to be arguing is complete speculation. Personally speaking, I think I'm giving Alpha Flight more credit than you are. I don't believe they would be nonchalant and careless in confronting a being that had destroyed an entire town's population and was crackling with unknown energy at several hundred mph.

They were very serious in this ark though, and were working extremely well together. Except that's what was stated and that was their order to him, which goes with the point they didn't know what was fully going on. Because if they fully knew they would have definetly took more of a defensive tactic yet they didn't and Walter trying to talk it out?

Except for basically every apperance Guardian has you can see his shield, huge difference. Also once again did they really know that? Because as I mentioned above if they knew he killed those people who would they try to talk to him and ask him to turn away? That's competly out of character. Alpha Flight literally has taken down Elder Gods, it's silly to say the Collective merely overpowered them when beings like. Galactus, the Great Beasts, Llan, Dreamqueen, etc. couldn't. Also just to note Llan might have had a part in their death anyways

read last line:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t105/DC_CaptainComet/MysticArcana_TheBookofMagic2007_23.jpg

OneDumbG0
^ That Galactus feat is overblown by some people. Galactus was hungry (as usual), but Galactus' powers didn't even work in the dimension they were in. Not only that, Alpha Flight was assisted by an Avengers team that included the likes of Sersi, Hercules and Quasar pummeling Galactus and hurting him because his powers didn't work, before Vindicator ever brought his power to bear.

It's not silly to say that Alpha Flight got overpowered by the Collective. Hell, Guardian, Sasquatch and Box got man-handled by a depowered Juggernaut and had to get out-fitted with Hulkbuster armor to take him down. And that was AFTER Cain gave up fighting after seeing Sammy's mother hurt by their battle. Bottom-line, Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective. He was, after all, the sum total of millions of mutant bio-signatures. Keeping that in perspective does not make their defeat a "low feat." But giving them due credit must be apportioned equally, because Sentry stood up to that same force.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ That Galactus feat is overblown by some people. Galactus was hungry (as usual), but Galactus' powers didn't even work in the dimension they were in. Not only that, Alpha Flight was assisted by an Avengers team that included the likes of Sersi, Hercules and Quasar pummeling Galactus and hurting him because his powers didn't work, before Vindicator ever brought his power to bear.

It's not silly to say that Alpha Flight got overpowered by the Collective. Hell, Guardian, Sasquatch and Box got man-handled by a depowered Juggernaut and had to get out-fitted with Hulkbuster armor to take him down. And that was AFTER Cain gave up fighting after seeing Sammy's mother hurt by their battle. Bottom-line, Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective. He was, after all, the sum total of millions of mutant bio-signatures. Keeping that in perspective does not make their defeat a "low feat." But giving them due credit must be apportioned equally, because Sentry stood up to that same force.

Yeah I know I mentioned this above, but like I said the feat is the combined might of Her, Quasar, Vision, Sersi, BOX IV, Windshear, Hercules, Vindicator couldn't do what Guardian did in one attack. That's a HUGE feat, and then he was the only one who could power Galactus tech. Was Galactus anywhere close to his peak level? Hell no, but Guardian took him down when other "herald-types" couldn't

What? No they didn't and Box never fought Juggernaut. Sasquatch even had Juggernaut on the ground ROCKED way before he gave up over Sammy (that happened later, but the fight was only a minute as noted by Northstar) and it was Guardian and Vindicator telling him to stop giving Jugz the chance to get up and hit Walter away when he wasn't looking then later he gave up. Also did you see Guardian or Vindicator in the fight use ANY energy attack? Nope, not one. Classic Guardian blasts have rocked the would be God-Ranark the Ravanger and he is drastically above depowered Jugz. Yet Iron Man showed he could go toe to toe with the Collective and same with Ms.Marvel and they lived to tell the story and Alpha Flight has members drastically above them. It makes complete and utter sense they were taken off-guard

bbrem123
Originally posted by -K-M-
That's not true

Oh and here is Snowbird's latest apperance

Snowbird
(Post-Resurrection)
---------------------------------------------
Pantheon of Gods
----------------------------------------------
Incredible Hercules #119 (Vol.1) :
Here the God Squad get to the Skrull Gods palace, but it is being guarded by pantheons of Gods from 978 past and present Imperial Worlds that the Skrulls have took over. The team is completely outnumbered and outgunned as even Demorgorge the God Eater was struggling fighting them. It was Snowbird taking the form of Neooqtoq a Great Beast and was taking them all on by herself

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg14.jpg
2. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg15.jpg
3. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg16.jpg
4. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg18.jpg
5. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg19.jpg
6. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg20.jpg
7. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg21.jpg
8. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/IncredibleHercules119Zone-Meganpg22.jpg

i thought Demorgorge the God Eater was above every other god...how is he struggling here?

but i do love how he is making another appearence in comics

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Yeah I know I mentioned this above, but like I said the feat is the combined might of Her, Quasar, Vision, Sersi, BOX IV, Windshear, Hercules, Vindicator couldn't do what Guardian did in one attack. That's a HUGE feat, and then he was the only one who could power Galactus tech. Was Galactus anywhere close to his peak level? Hell no, but Guardian took him down when other "herald-types" couldn'tThe combined attack by all the aforementioned was really putting a hurtin on Galactus. For Vindicator to come at the end and make the finishing shot does not correlate to him solely getting the credit. Galactus was both weakened and his powers didn't even work in that dimension. It shouldn't surprise anyone that their combined assault put him down. A Mjolnir throw has driven away a weak Galactus when his powers actually worked.
Originally posted by -K-M-
What? No they didn't and Box never fought Juggernaut. Sasquatch even had Juggernaut on the ground ROCKED way before he gave up over Sammy (that happened later, but the fight was only a minute as noted by Northstar) and it was Guardian and Vindicator telling him to stop giving Jugz the chance to get up and hit Walter away when he wasn't looking then later he gave up. Also did you see Guardian or Vindicator in the fight use ANY energy attack? Nope, not one. Classic Guardian blasts have rocked the would be God-Ranark the Ravanger and he is drastically above depowered Jugz. Yet Iron Man showed he could go toe to toe with the Collective and same with Ms.Marvel and they lived to tell the story and Alpha Flight has members drastically above them. It makes complete and utter sense they were taken off-guard I'm pretty sure Box was there. It was Guardian, Box and Sasquatch, right? Either way, Alpha Flight and depowered Juggernaut had two fights. The first fight, when Alpha Flight came to the X-Mansion to take Sammy back to Canada, they pretty much got rocked. Even I was embarassed when I read it. The second time, they were in Canada at Sammy's parents' home and had outfitted themselves with Hulkbuster armor to uphold their restraining order on Cain. Even at that point, they were only truly beating on depowered Juggernaut AFTER he gave up on the fight because Sammy's mother was critically injured.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The combined attack by all the aforementioned was really putting a hurtin on Galactus. For Vindicator to come at the end and make the finishing shot does not correlate to him solely getting the credit. Galactus was both weakened and his powers didn't even work in that dimension. It shouldn't surprise anyone that their combined assault put him down. A Mjolnir throw has driven away a weak Galactus when his powers actually worked.

Really putting a hurtin on Galactus? How? because until Guardian did that attack he really wasn;t showing really any serious damage or did they even come close to what Guardian did to him what's so ever. To say their attacks were a huge thing for Guardian doing what he was doing is wrong. They even stopped fighting, and that's when Guardian did his blast. Yeah I know he was weakened, like I said several times.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm pretty sure Box was there. It was Guardian, Box and Sasquatch, right? Either way, Alpha Flight and depowered Juggernaut had two fights. The first fight, when Alpha Flight came to the X-Mansion to take Sammy back to Canada, they pretty much got rocked. Even I was embarassed when I read it. The second time, they were in Canada at Sammy's parents' home and had outfitted themselves with Hulkbuster armor to uphold their restraining order on Cain. Even at that point, they were only truly beating on depowered Juggernaut AFTER he gave up on the fight because Sammy's mother was critically injured.

He was 100% NOT there (first or second fight), and yeah they were getting rocked in what many agree was a badly written story as even Snowbird can't even be in the States or she would die. In their first fight, Walter and Juggernaut fought and Jugz looked far worse as literally his face looked like it was falling off (and I'm not kidding, he was mangled). Basically all of Alpha Flight (Guardian, Vindicator, Puck and even Snowbird) were taken out from behind or sneak attacked. Incorrect, Walter and Juggernaut were going one on one and Walter had him rocked on the ground and he stopped the attack because Vindicator and Guardian told him to stop. The duo told Walter to stop fighting Jugz TWICE, the second time was when Sammy got involved the first time Walter had him laid out on the ground.

CaptainStoic
Ironman and Ms. Marvel were helpless against the Collective, neither lasted more than 15 seconds against him, this is not at all true -K-M-.

Ironman was magnetically and telekinetically seperated from his armor, while Ms. Marvel was bombarded, and overloaded by energetic and telepathic assauslts... she was going to die just before the Sentry arrived and snatched the Collective up dragging him into deep space in moments.

I also noticed at the time that the Collective was doing a number on Carol Danvers that he was at least 25-30 feet in stature... did Bob grow to match his size like the Void has the power to do, was it horrible sketch work, or did the Collective reduce his size when they were out in space? I noticed that Bob also seemed to grow in size while he battled King Hulk... again this could be poor art work.

-K-M-
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Ironman and Ms. Marvel were helpless against the Collective, neither lasted more than 15 seconds against him, this is not at all true -K-M-.

Ironman was magnetically and telekinetically seperated from his armor, while Ms. Marvel was bombarded, and overloaded by energetic and telepathic assauslts... she was going to die just before the Sentry arrived and snatched the Collective up dragging him into deep space in moments.

I also noticed at the time that the Collective was doing a number on Carol Danvers that he was at least 25-30 feet in stature... did Bob grow to match his size like the Void has the power to do, was it horrible sketch work, or did the Collective reduce his size when they were out in space? I noticed that Bob also seemed to grow in size while he battled King Hulk... again this could be poor art work.

Actually that's incorrect, reread the ark again

Read when Iron Man fought the Collective in space erm

Reduce his size which was pretty clear as Iron Man was the same size as the Sentry and the Collective when they fought in space. Iron Man was even rocking the Collective with blasts.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Really putting a hurtin on Galactus? How? because until Guardian did that attack he really wasn;t showing really any serious damage or did they even come close to what Guardian did to him what's so ever. To say their attacks were a huge thing for Guardian doing what he was doing is wrong. They even stopped fighting, and that's when Guardian did his blast. Yeah I know he was weakened, like I said several times.Yeah. Really putting a hurtin on Galactus, even Quasar states it was a group effort in the last scan:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-17.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-19.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-25.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-26.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-28.jpg

And they only paused in the fighting because Galactus held Vindicator hostage. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were suggesting that they stopped fighting and Galactus had time to completely recover from their assault and Vindicator single-handedly put him down. He only got the final blow. And I know you acknowledge that Galactus was weak. But do me a favor and re-acknowledge that Galactus wasn't just weak, his powers didn't work:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-13.jpg

EDIT: Here I've been looking at your respect thread for the Galactus scans above and I didn't even think to look for the Juggs fights. Alright, give me a few to look em over again. Brb.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah. Really putting a hurtin on Galactus, even Quasar states it was a group effort in the last scan:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-17.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-19.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-25.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-26.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-28.jpg

And they only paused in the fighting because Galactus held Vindicator hostage. If I didn't know better, I'd think you were suggesting that they stopped fighting and Galactus had time to recover. And I know you acknowledge that Galactus was weak. But do me a favor and re-acknowledge that Galactus wasn't just weak, his powers didn't work:

Ok? and like I said when did they even remotely do any serious damage with what the likes of Guardian did. Even Quasar mentioned it was Guardian's energy that messed with Galactus energy. You sort of left that scan out and it's a very very key scan.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-27.jpg

In a sense yes he could recover as now he could think and he wasn't kept off-balance which was point of their whole corelated attack so he coudn't figure out what was wrong with his powers. Yeah they wern't, I even mentioned that as well. Like I said the feat was Guardian did what the other heralds couldn't do

1. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-25.jpg
2. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/A_Flight6/AlphaFlight100-26.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I believe you when you say Box wasn't there. But I totally disagree with your interpretation of the fights. I'm gonna take a look myself and give you my interpretation with the scans later today. Because I don't believe that depowered Juggernaut was the worse for wear in the first fight. And I don't believe that ordering Walter to stop the first time was any indication that depowered Juggernaut was getting definitively beaten. They ordered him to stop because Walter was getting too personal, not because he was killing depowered Juggs without his armor.

This is Juggernaut's face at the end of the fight, it was mangled

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p36.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p38.jpg

He was getting beaten, and yeah they said to stop as it was getting personal. Sasquatch clearly showed he had the advantage during their first encounter in that fight.

Mindset
Juggs laid there and let Sasquatch pound on him. erm

-K-M-
Originally posted by Mindset
Juggs laid there and let Sasquatch pound on him. erm

That was much later. Guardian and Vindciator told Walter to stop fighting TWICE, where the second time was with Sammy and Jugz wasn't fighting back

OneDumbG0
Jebus Christ. I won't even argue about this anymore. The fights were even worse than I had initially remembered. Juggs may have had nasty bruises on his face in the first fight, but he was also actually fighting other members of Alpha Flight whereas Sasquatch who was knocked out for part of the fight was only attacking Juggs.

And as for the second fight. Juggs completely destroyed Guardian, Vindicator and Sasquatch all by himself. Yeah, they told Walter to stop three times. 1) At the beginning; 2) right after Walter bumrushed him; and 3) right after Juggs already gave up. Nothing in the fight suggests that depowered, dearmored Juggs was anywhere beaten to the point of submission. AFTER that "crucial point" where you argue that Walter had him completely on the ropes and Guardian told him to stop, Juggs is standing relatively unscathed and mocking them all! Here:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6831/juggernaut04qp6.jpg

I'm not arguing this anymore. You won't be convinced. Here are the two fights, courtesy of K-M himself and other people can make their judgments. Personally, I can't see how you could think what you think. The only things we agree on was Alpha Flight got stomped on and jobbed twice:

Originally posted by -K-M-

---------------------------------------------
Uncanny X-MEN #422: Uncanny X-MEN

1. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p18.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p19.jpg
3. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p20.jpg
4. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p21.jpg
5. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p22-23.jpg
6. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p24.jpg
7. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p25.jpg
8. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p26.jpg
9. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p27.jpg
10. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p28.jpg
11. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p29.jpg
12. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p30.jpg
13. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p31.jpg
14. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p32.jpg
15. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p33.jpg
16. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p34.jpg
17. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p35.jpg
18. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p36.jpg
19. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p38.jpg

---------------------------------------------
Uncanny X-Men #432-434: Juggernaut

1. url]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/UXM-22-23.jpg
2. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p05-06.jpg
3. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p07.jpg
4.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p08.jpg
5. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p14.jpg
6. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p15b.jpg
7. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/uncanny_x-men_433_p16b.jpg
8. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_04.jpg
9. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_05.jpg
10. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_06.jpg
11. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_07.jpg
12. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_08.jpg
13. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/Uncanny_X-Men_434_Pyrate_09.jpg

CaptainStoic
But those alien creatures did state that not only was Galactus weak, but that his powers did not work...... hmmmm..... it also shows that when he attemted to transmute them to energy that his powers fizzled out. It is in my honest opinion that using Galactus as a means to guage Alpha Flights power should be stricken, and no longer used as a basis to prove how potent a force that they are. In his normal universe Alpha Flight would have no chance against Galactus.... Heather Hudson shows this by her suprise at being able to affect Galan at all.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jebus Christ. I won't even argue about this anymore. The fights were even worse than I had initially remembered. Juggs may have had nasty bruises on his face in the first fight, but he was also actually fighting other members of Alpha Flight whereas Sasquatch who was knocked out for part of the fight was only attacking Juggs.

And as for the second fight. Juggs completely destroyed Guardian, Vindicator and Sasquatch all by himself. Yeah, they told Walter to stop three times. At the beginning, right after Walter bumrushed him and right after Juggs gave up. Nothing in the fight suggests that dewpowered, dearmored Juggs was anywhere beaten to the point of submission. AFTER that curcial point where you argue that Walter had him completely on the ropes, Juggs is standing relatively unscathed and mocking them all! Here:

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6831/juggernaut04qp6.jpg

I'm not arguing this anymore. You won't be convinced. Here are the two fights, courtesy of K-M himself and other people can make their judgments. Personally, I can't see how you could think what you think. The only things we agree on was Alpha Flight got stomped on and jobbed twice:

Knocked out? When was he ever knocked out?

So like I said did you see them use energy attacks? No, did you see even Guardian activate his shield? No. Did you see Guardian go completly out of character and actually try to go hand to hand with Jugz? Yes, and it was stupid as he even made him bleed. I never said he was close to submission ever, but he had him laid out on the ground and then Vindicator/Guardian told him to stop which happened. Jugz hit Vindicator once, and then Mac did his punch attack. and for "completly destroyed them"? *snicker* We even see them right after none the worse for wear

Except that was a different artist as before Jugz is hurt and it's showed, like how in that scan Jugz has his shirt on, but before it was completly destroyed

Ok? It's not like I'm the only one who has said the same things I have been saying.

-K-M-
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
But those alien creatures did state that not only was Galactus weak, but that his powers did not work...... hmmmm..... it also shows that when he attemted to transmute them to energy that his powers fizzled out. It is in my honest opinion that using Galactus as a means to guage Alpha Flights power should be stricken, and no longer used as a basis to prove how potent a force that they are. In his normal universe Alpha Flight would have no chance against Galactus.... Heather Hudson shows this by her suprise at being able to affect Galan at all.

Have you not been reading what we have been saying? Seriously? erm

The feat isn't just beating a weakened Galactus (we have even mention he was weakened multiple times), but the feat is other herald level characters couldn't do what Guardian did in one shot (Quasar mentions it was Guardian's attack that put him down). Even afterwards Galactus asked Guardian to power his tech as he said he was the only one who could find the right frequency and power it. That's an impressive feat, could Guardian take on a full power Galactus or even close to that level? Hell no.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Knocked out? When was he ever knocked out?

So like I said did you see them use energy attacks? No, did you see even Guardian activate his shield? No. Did you see Guardian go completly out of character and actually try to go hand to hand with Jugz? Yes, and it was stupid as he even made him bleed. I never said he was close to submission ever, but he had him laid out on the ground and then Vindicator/Guardian told him to stop which happened. Jugz hit Vindicator once, and then Mac did his punch attack. and for "completly destroyed them"? *snicker* We even see them right after none the worse for wear

Except that was a different artist as before Jugz is hurt and it's showed, like how in that scan Jugz has his shirt on, but before it was completly destroyed

Ok? It's not like I'm the only one who has said the same things I have been saying. Juggs obviously has the power to lay him out because they both laid each other out with their opening shots and forming this crater. And while Sas is pleading for him to stop, Juggs whacks him again and we don't even see him again for another five pages:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p22-23.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p24.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p25.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p26.jpg

Five pages of Juggs fighting other people before he actually comes back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p31.jpg

Different art means nothing. It's the same writer that wrote Juggs getting bumrushed by Walter in the first part and wrote Juggs standing there mocking them all in the second part. A depowered, dearmored Juggs stomped on an enhanced Alpha Flight in the second battle. It was embarassing and it was jobbing. But don't expect me to give Alpha Flight any kind of props for knocking Juggs to the ground once or "going easy on him." It was an ugly showing for Alpha Flight, plain and simple.
Originally posted by -K-M-
Have you not been reading what we have been saying? Seriously? erm

The feat isn't just beating a weakened Galactus (we have even mention he was weakened multiple times), but the feat is other herald level characters couldn't do what Guardian did in one shot (Quasar mentions it was Guardian's attack that put him down). Even afterwards Galactus asked Guardian to power his tech as he said he was the only one who could find the right frequency and power it. That's an impressive feat, could Guardian take on a full power Galactus or even close to that level? Hell no. Dude. Her (Kismet), is hardly a herald level character. She's low herald at best. Quasar is also a low herald character. He may have the items and powerset to be better, but he really isn't. Either way, meaningless "herald" labelling does nothing to enhance the prestige for which Guardian should garner for basically landing a final shot on a weakened and depowered Galactus who had been assaulted and hurt by Alpha Flight and the Avengers.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Juggs obviously has the power to lay him out because they both laid each other out with their opening shots and form a crater. And while Sas is pleading for him to stop, Juggs whacks him again and we don't even see him again for another five pages:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p22-23.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p24.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p25.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p26.jpg

Five pages of Juggs fighting other people before he actually comes back:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Nidaime-Sama/p31.jpg

Different art means nothing. It's the same writer that wrote Juggs getting bumrushed by Walter in the first part and wrote Juggs standing there mocking them in the second part. A depowered, dearmored Juggs stomped on an enhanced Alpha Flight in the second battle. It was embarassing and it was jobbing. But don't expect me to give Alpha Flight any kind of props for knocking Juggs to the ground once or "going easy on him." It was an ugly showing for Alpha Flight, plain and simple.

Dude. Her (Kismet), is hardly a herald level character. She's low herald at best. Quasar is also a low herald character. He may have the items and powerset to be better, but he really isn't. Either way, meaningless "herald" labelling does nothing to enhance the prestige for which Guardian should garner for basically landing a final shot on a weakened and depowered Galactus who had been assaulted and hurt by Alpha Flight and the Avengers.

Except the way the page is we see Sasquatch laying the big blow knocking off Jugz helmet off, and there was only one sound text. Walter tells him to wait up and then Jugs pops him, which now Walter knows it's bussiness and they go shot for shot right after. Also another example of how badly written the first fight was, Guardain doesn't need the suit to give him powers anymore. He generates the power himself as he is a cyborg, the external costume is just for looks as he generates the true power. So northstar leaving his powerless by removing the suit, which apparently Guardian told him how to do before...errr why? Page length does not equal a long time, as you do know the 2nd fight was literally less a minute right as noted by Northstar and that was far more then 5 pages.

Except the artist showed damage to Juggernaut, while the other didn't. I'm sorry how does that mean nothing? And stomped? If your talking about hitting Vindicator once, and Guardian once...yeah sure. Then ignore the fact we see them right after and their completly fine. I never said they were going easy on him, but did it show their abilities and what they can do? No, it was a poorly written story it was even the Draco ark which is considered to be one of the worst X-Men arks ever.

You just contradicted yourself, you say she isn't herald level character then say she is a low herald? Also Quasar is most definetly more then a low herald, and I wasn't remarking they were high heralds like Silver Surfer, etc. just herald class which they are. Except those assaults were really doing nothing of note worthy until Guardian laid out his attack which Quasar remarked was his doing that brought Galactus down.

CaptainStoic
Nice scans, Judging from the fight between Sasquatch and Cain, I would call that battle as close to a stalemate as it gets.

Let's talk power levels now. King Hulk destroyed that same depowered Juggernaut in 2 panels, but went all out to barely defeat the Sentry.

Systematically Sasquatch should be ruled as a non factor in a battle with The Sentry.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Have you not been reading what we have been saying? Seriously? erm

The feat isn't just beating a weakened Galactus (we have even mention he was weakened multiple times), but the feat is other herald level characters couldn't do what Guardian did in one shot (Quasar mentions it was Guardian's attack that put him down). Even afterwards Galactus asked Guardian to power his tech as he said he was the only one who could find the right frequency and power it. That's an impressive feat, could Guardian take on a full power Galactus or even close to that level? Hell no.

Yes I have been reading what has been written, and from what I read Galactus would have been defeated without Guardians help, he just hastened the process. You seem to be the one that may be reading something that is not there.

Galactus could not use his powers, even a weakened Galactus that could use his power, in his home dimension or universe would have been able to defeat that entire team, all he had to do was transmute them into energy. Therefore even a weak Galactus could beat Guardian without trying.

-K-M-
Originally posted by CaptainStoic
Nice scans, Judging from the fight between Sasquatch and Cain, I would call that battle as close to a stalemate as it gets.

Let's talk power levels now. King Hulk destroyed that same depowered Juggernaut in 2 panels, but went all out to barely defeat the Sentry.

Systematically Sasquatch should be ruled as a non factor in a battle with The Sentry.

Yeah it was

IF Sasquatch fought King Hulk he (Walter) would have been destroyed

Did you miss the part where I said Sasquatch WASN'T the key figure to defeat Sentry? However, if he does lose control to Tanaraq Sentry is screwed.

Originally posted by CaptainStoic

Yes I have been reading what has been written, and from what I read Galactus would have been defeated without Guardians help, he just hastened the process. You seem to be the one that may be reading something that is not there.

Galactus could not use his powers, even a weakened Galactus that could use his power, in his home dimension or universe would have been able to defeat that entire team, all he had to do was transmute them into energy. Therefore even a weak Galactus could beat Guardian without trying.

Except that wasn't shown or stated as their attacks really wern't do ANYTHING until Guardian affected his internal energy.

I dont think you have been reading the posts as this was all addressed many times. A weakened Galactus who DOES have access to his powers would destroy Guardian. However, the feat is the others couldn't do what Guardian did in one attack.

OneDumbG0
^ You want to continue giving Guardian sole credit for laying out a weakened Galactus whose powers didn't work and was assaulted by Alpha Flight and the Avengers and hurting him? That's your cup of tea. Fact is, like I said, I'm done arguing these issues. You're not convinced, that's fine. Your theories don't convince me either. But Sasquatch turning to Tanaraq has as much weight in this debate as Sentry reverting into the Void, which is no weight at all.

To anybody else, Guardian's "defeat" of Galactus is overblown. Alpha Flight jobbed to a depowered Juggernaut + X-Men and then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggs when they were enhanced. It's not surprising that Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective, the sum total of millions of mutant signatures. Sentry was handling the Collective evenly. Sentry also drained the power of World War Hulk, who had previously and utterly curbstomped a depowered Juggernaut. You guys do the math.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You want to continue giving Vindicator sole credit for laying out a weakened Galactus whose powers didn't work and was assualted by Alpha Flight and the Avengers and hurting him. That's your cup of tea. Fact is, like I said, I'm done arguing these issues. You're not convinced, that's fine. Your theories don't convince me either.

To anybody else, Guardian's "defeat" of Galactus is overblown. Alpha Flight jobbed to a depowered Juggernaut + X-Men and then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggs when they were enhanced. It's not surprising that Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective, the sum total of millions of mutant signatures. Sentry was handling the Collective evenly. Sentry drained the power of World War Hulk, who in turn completely curbstomped a depowered Juggernaut. You guys do the math.

Sweet, I like how you really didn't counter my points.

Sweet, let's also ignore how they do defeat Elder Gods and cosmic beings rountinely and ignore the context of when they jobbed. *shrugs* Also Sentry was handling the Collective evenly? Seriously how do you figure? As I mentioned earlier even Iron Man was rocking the Collective multiple times in space.

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Sweet, I like how you really didn't counter my points.

Sweet, let's also ignore how they do defeat Elder Gods and cosmic beings rountinely and ignore the context of when they jobbed. *shrugs* Also Sentry was handling the Collective evenly? Seriously how do you figure? As I mentioned earlier even Iron Man was rocking the Collective multiple times in space. Dude. It's all there in the scans. I have addressed every single one of your points. I don't care to convince you of dropping your recalcitrant fanboyish interpretations. And your specious bravado does nothing to change the facts or the arguments. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither of us are changing them. Other people can decide for themselves.

Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective. Sentry did not.

Alpha Flight jobbed to the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. An enhanced Alpha Flight then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggernaut. World War Hulk raped both the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. Sentry fought World War Hulk to a standstill and barely lost.

Do the math.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Dude. It's all there in the scans. I have addressed every single one of your points. I don't care to convince you of dropping your recalcitrant fanboyish interpretations. And your specious bravado does nothing to change the facts or the arguments. You have your opinion, I have mine. Neither of us are changing them. Other people can decide for themselves.

Alpha Flight got raped by the Collective. Sentry did not.

Alpha Flight jobbed to the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. An enhanced Alpha Flight then jobbed to a depowered and dearmored Juggernaut. World War Hulk raped both the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. Sentry fought World War Hulk to a standstill and barely lost.

Do the math.

No you really didn't, because you even neglected to post one scan which proved Guardian was the biggest part in defeating Galactus as he messed with his internal energy no one else even came close to replicating that or even caused significant damage to him that would linger. Fine we shall let others.

Off-panel you mean, and Sentry fought the Collective breifly and he was then easily BFR. The second time, Iron man was helping him and Iron Man was even seriously rocking the Collective himself.

Like I said ignoring context, as most of AF in the first time they fought the X-Men were literally attacked from behind or sneak attacked, the second time you think hitting someone once is a stomp. Alpha Flight beat Ranark the Ravanger, the Great Beasts, Dreamqueen, hell even Carcass who was going to destroy ALL of REALITY. I have done the math and they have done far more then what Sentry has done to this date.

tkitna
Those scans of the Galactus fight and the Juggernaut fights dont look so good for Alpha Flight. Guardian took out a totally powerless Galactus. So what. Juggs (depowered) beat the hell out of sasquatch.

Sentry is better than that.

-K-M-
So what? lulz, and Juggernaut most definetly did not beat the hell out of Sasquatch. Also Walter is not the key component in this Sentry fight anyways as I have said many many times.

I know you like Sentry but when you have people like Snowbird who can become an Elder God like Tanaraq or Neooqtoq why do you think Sentry stands a chance? I know in every Sentry thread you say he wins, but come on.

Sentry sure wasn't better then getting beat by a robot or the chrysler building, going one on one with teenage Namor or getting sucker punched by Ms.Marvel, or Iron Fist easily dodging his blow.

OneDumbG0
^ Accusing me of ignoring Alpha Flight's consistently high feats and focusing only on their low feats and then turning right around in the next post and ignoring Sentry's consistently high feats and focusing only on Sentry's low feats yourself? Congratulations.

My excuse was that I was comparing side-to-side performances. Alpha Flight was raped by the same foe that Sentry was able to go toe-to-toe with. And Alpha Flight jobbed to a few X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut, which World War Hulk rapestomped, who in turn was matched by Sentry. What's your excuse?

tkitna
Originally posted by -K-M-
So what? lulz, and Juggernaut most definetly did not beat the hell out of Sasquatch. Also Walter is not the key component in this Sentry fight anyways as I have said many many times.

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I was just saying that the two examples you were submitting werent that impressive. I havent followed Alpha Flight since I collected the first 10 or so from their original series. Here I thought Guardian was way, way more than I remembered with him taking on Galactus and so forth and from the scans, he isnt. You had me thinking he was uber or something and that doesnt seem to be the case. I dont think he has anything for Sentry actually.

Sasquatch was talking to God when he came to and by the looks of the scan, did not want anymore of Juggernaut at the time. And yes, I realize that sasquatch is not a factor against the Sentry.



If Snowbird resorts to becoming a Great Beast, he would lose. There I admitted it, but she could get speedblitzed before she turned too. How often does Snowbird resort to turning into one of the great beasts? I'm just curious as I dont know. Was it more than the one time. Hell with that power, Alpha Flight should never lose to anybody period.



The CAP robot was pretty stout. Was anybody else doing anything to it? The Chrysler Building? Come on man, dont resort to that garbage. Teenage Namor? I keep seeing you mention this. Is this the Invaders/Avengers story where they each punched each other once? I know you dont really think any incarnation of Namor would beat Sentry. Ms. Marvel sucker punched him. So what. Ms. Marvel knows what the deal is. When shit hits the fan, she sends Bob. Iron Fist easily dodged his blows. How long do you think that would have lasted if Sentry was pissed? Now Iron Fist has a chance of beating Sentry? Please. Your just upset using these examples.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Accusing me of ignoring Alpha Flight's consistently high feats and focusing only on their low feats and then turning right around in the next post and ignoring Sentry's consistently high feats and focusing only on Sentry's low feats yourself? Congratulations.

My excuse was that I was comparing side-to-side performances. Alpha Flight was raped by the same foe that Sentry was able to go toe-to-toe with. And Alpha Flight jobbed to a few X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut, which World War Hulk rapestomped, who in turn was matched by Sentry. What's your excuse?

and you missed the point, because your just fixating on the low showings even though it literally contradicts years and years of showings and on-panel feats. I'm not ignoring his high showings, but AF shows > Sentry's showing by quite a margin and they have far more showings that valdiate other showings.

Alpha Flight was rapped off-panel, so we don't know what happened and they were taken off guard as we see by their comments when the Collective stopped. Then your using when Sentry fought the Collective which was very breif and really didn't show anything until Sentry got btr. Then later Iron Man is taking on the Collective one on one and then Sentry reappears and they both fight the Collective and Iron Man rocked the Collective multiple times. Then your ignoring the context behind the x-men showings, as most were literally attacked from behind and apparently one hit by your logic equals a stomp. Silly and don't use ABC logic

Originally posted by tkitna
I'm not trying to get a rise out of you. I was just saying that the two examples you were submitting werent that impressive. I havent followed Alpha Flight since I collected the first 10 or so from their original series. Here I thought Guardian was way, way more than I remembered with him taking on Galactus and so forth and from the scans, he isnt. You had me thinking he was uber or something and that doesnt seem to be the case. I dont think he has anything for Sentry actually.

and your completly wrong, Guardian was built to take on Galactus and in one-shot took him down when other "heralds" couldn't take him down. Even Galactus right after knew he was powerful as he powered his tech. Also he isn't uber? Look at his feats

Originally posted by tkitna
Sasquatch was talking to God when he came to and by the looks of the scan, did not want anymore of Juggernaut at the time. And yes, I realize that sasquatch is not a factor against the Sentry.

Ummm...what? Your joking right? Hell Walter even came back after that punch and went shot for shot and left juggernaut a mangled mess. He has even gone against people far stronger then depowered Jugz and wasn't "talking to God"

Originally posted by tkitna

If Snowbird resorts to becoming a Great Beast, he would lose. There I admitted it, but she could get speedblitzed before she turned too. How often does Snowbird resort to turning into one of the great beasts? I'm just curious as I dont know. Was it more than the one time. Hell with that power, Alpha Flight should never lose to anybody period.

quite abit actually, she even turned into Tanaraq against savage Hulk, but at the time unknown to her she could only take Sasquatch form as her parents took away her god powers and made her mortal. She turned into Tanaraq to battle Pestilence a few times, and turned into Tanaraq to even "kill" tanaraq. She wouldn't get speedblitzed as AF has multple members that can go lightspeed. By their feats, they really shouldn't

Originally posted by tkitna

The CAP robot was pretty stout. Was anybody else doing anything to it? The Chrysler Building? Come on man, dont resort to that garbage. Teenage Namor? I keep seeing you mention this. Is this the Invaders/Avengers story where they each punched each other once? I know you dont really think any incarnation of Namor would beat Sentry. Ms. Marvel sucker punched him. So what. Ms. Marvel knows what the deal is. When shit hits the fan, she sends Bob. Iron Fist easily dodged his blows. How long do you think that would have lasted if Sentry was pissed? Now Iron Fist has a chance of beating Sentry? Please. Your just upset using these examples.

and? apparently the level people on this board make him he should have had no trouble. Yet low showings that are completly silly for AF are accepted in this thread. you don't see the bias? No they hit each more then that, but Namor was none the worse for wear as he clashed with Ares and threw an axe into Iron Man's armor. How long? who knows, as IF dodged his attack pretty easily. Sentry really doesn't have any fighting speed feats and really hasn't speedblitzed anyone so why would he do it here?Yeah Ms.Marvel cheapshotted him, so did the Collective with AF yet no one seems to care. Even Iron Man called him basically a child and really isn't a great hero with his statements, and in the same issue Sentry kept making mistakes and saying "whoops"

OneDumbG0
^ The fact that you're actually trying to justify your use of Sentry's low feats while holding me to task for using Alpha Flight's jobbing instances in side-by-side comparisons is utterly laughable.

Teen Namor and Sentry attacked each other? Teen Namor seemed none the worse for wear? Funny. The Collective and Sentry attacked each other. Sentry seemed none the worse for wear. Alpha Flight on the other hand got anally raped.

Iron Fist dodged Sentry's attack easily? That means Alpha Flight could dodge Sentry easily? Like they dodged depowered, dearmored Juggernaut manhandling their enhanced butts like they were blowup sex dolls? Your double-standards are painful. The fact that Alpha Flight are your favorite characters is no excuse for the rampant hypocrisy.

Sentry took on the same exact foe that raped Alpha Flight in the prior issue. If Alpha Flight took on the same exact foe that raped Sentry, you'd happily use it. I would give more credit to Alpha Flight if I wasn't so busy criticizing your flawed logic. Equivocating about the circumstances, making excuses for Alpha Flight and using double-standards isn't helping your case at all.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ The fact that you're actually trying to justify your use of Sentry's low feats while holding me to task for using Alpha Flight's jobbing instances in side-by-side comparisons is utterly laughable.

Teen Namor and Sentry attacked each other? Teen Namor seemed none the worse for wear? Funny. The Collective and Sentry attacked each other. Sentry seemed none the worse for wear. Alpha Flight on the other hand got anally raped.

Iron Fist dodged Sentry's attack easily? That means Alpha Flight could dodge Sentry easily? Like they dodged depowered, dearmored Juggernaut manhandling their enhanced butts like they were blowup sex dolls? Your double-standards are painful. The fact that Alpha Flight are your favorite characters is no excuse for the rampant hypocrisy.

Sentry took on the same exact foe that raped Alpha Flight in the prior issue. If Alpha Flight took on the same exact foe that raped Sentry, you'd happily use it. I would give more credit to Alpha Flight if I wasn't so busy criticizing your flawed logic. Equivocating about the circumstances, making excuses for Alpha Flight and using double-standards isn't helping your case at all.

Ummm...no, the differences is Alpha Flight has years and years of showings that contradict those two other showings. While Sentry doesn't, so you tend to take 2 showings over 50 and ignore the context in those 2 other showings. Now that's laughable

How do you know the Collective was none the worse for wear? Except we actually saw those fights on-panel, and we know for a fact more went on in the AF VS. C fight through various flashbacks and handbook entries. Yet you seem to be on the case nothing happened and it was a complete utter rape. When we even know the Collective actually used multiple powers to fight AF, but can the Sentry make the same claim? No. Was Sentry ready to fight the Collective? Yes, and now can AF make the same claim? No.

Sure why not, and it's not like when JUGZ fought them they were fighting with their whole powerset. Seriosuly do you not get the sarcasm? You seem to take one thing and ignore it for the other and then call me biased even though I'm using YOUR logic. I'm basically repeating what your saying as your just using those low showings while not even addressing the high ones.

Took on the foe and literally did NOTHING, he was quickly swatted away. How is it flawed logic where the fight happened off-panel AF showed they wern;t looking for a fight and even later Iron Man rocked Collective not once but multiple times and some how say they wern't taken off guard.

tkitna
Originally posted by -K-M-
and? apparently the level people on this board make him he should have had no trouble. Yet low showings that are completly silly for AF are accepted in this thread. you don't see the bias?

Hey I agree about the CAP robot. It was a silly story to begin with and the writer should be slapped. I'm not here trying to point out low feats and high feats. I just said that your examples werent the most convincing to me. I'm sure there are other Alpha Flight stories that would better convey their strengths then those already suggested.



Do we have different books? I only saw two punches thrown from both of them. Do you really think that Namor (teenage or not) would have a shot against Sentry?



Iron Fist would have a city block thrown on him if Bob was serious. Also, tell Atuma how Sentry has no speed attacks.
http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ts010067bf.jpg

I also wonder why nobody ever mentions how Wolverine (one of Marvels greatest H2H fighters) couldnt even begin to get one shot in on Bob when they fought. Not one.



To be honest, i'm not on the Collective/Sentry bandwagon here. I'm not real confident that Bob would have came out of that fight on top if it had continued.



And yet Reed Richards declared the Sentry the greatest hero the world has ever known (in front of Thor). wink

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Ummm...no, the differences is Alpha Flight has years and years of showings that contradict those two other showings. While Sentry doesn't, so you tend to take 2 showings over 50 and ignore the context in those 2 other showings. Now that's laughable

How do you know the Collective was none the worse for wear? Except we actually saw those fights on-panel, and we know for a fact more went on in the AF VS. C fight through various flashbacks and handbook entries. Yet you seem to be on the case nothing happened and it was a complete utter rape. When we even know the Collective actually used multiple powers to fight AF, but can the Sentry make the same claim? No. Was Sentry ready to fight the Collective? Yes, and now can AF make the same claim? No.

Sure why not, and it's not like when JUGZ fought them they were fighting with their whole powerset. Seriosuly do you not get the sarcasm? You seem to take one thing and ignore it for the other and then call me biased even though I'm using YOUR logic. I'm basically repeating what your saying as your just using those low showings while not even addressing the high ones.

Took on the foe and literally did NOTHING, he was quickly swatted away. How is it flawed logic where the fight happened off-panel AF showed they wern;t looking for a fight and even later Iron Man rocked Collective not once but multiple times and some how say they wern't taken off guard. Why would I even bother about your interpetations of Alpha Flight's "high" showings? I already dealt with the very first one you rattled off with your list. When you're ready to give Guardian sole credit for beating a weakened Galactus whose powers weren't working and was being assaulted by Alpha Flight and Avengers, you really think I can expect any better from any of your other citations? Especially when you honestly compare my use of two drawn out battles illustrated in Uncanny X-Men to your use of a single panel of Iron Fist dodging Sentry? Your imitating my logic? Please. We argued about Alpha Flight jobbing to the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. All you're doing is selectively pulling out single panels of Sentry, labelling them as embarassing and bashing the character.

You think getting raped by the Collective is a low feat. I don't. He was the sum total of millions of mutant signatures. Before the Collective was ever actualized on a comic book, any comic fan would have considered such a theoretical foe as nothing short of formidable. Fact is, it's the only foe that both Alpha Flight and Sentry actually fought and that's more than enough reason to compare their performances. Alpha Flight was murdered in less than a minute. Sentry actually managed to BFR him and go toe-to-toe. Do the math.

-K-M-
Originally posted by tkitna
Hey I agree about the CAP robot. It was a silly story to begin with and the writer should be slapped. I'm not here trying to point out low feats and high feats. I just said that your examples werent the most convincing to me. I'm sure there are other Alpha Flight stories that would better convey their strengths then those already suggested.

I know and the reason I was doing it was using OneDumbGo's logic using just those two low showings which contradicted many many showings and basically ignored who they are and how their powers work.

Originally posted by tkitna

Do we have different books? I only saw two punches thrown from both of them. Do you really think that Namor (teenage or not) would have a shot against Sentry?

I could be wrong, but I could have swore there was more then 2. Also again using Dumb's logic one hit equals a stomp (not kidding). No, by all accounts he should lose but even still going toe to toe with Sentry even for a short period shows people somewhat in Namor's class could repeat the same. So Sentry winning in a blowout here doesn't make much sense.

Originally posted by tkitna

Iron Fist would have a city block thrown on him if Bob was serious. Also, tell Atuma how Sentry has no speed attacks.
http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ts010067bf.jpg

I also wonder why nobody ever mentions how Wolverine (one of Marvels greatest H2H fighters) couldnt even begin to get one shot in on Bob when they fought. Not one.

Most definetly, IF would get destroyed but Ondumbgo is merely using just those low showings which I find incorrect and then he calls me biased.

I actual forgot about Attuma, that was way back in Sentry #1 v.2

Indeed another contradiction

Originally posted by tkitna

To be honest, i'm not on the Collective/Sentry bandwagon here. I'm not real confident that Bob would have came out of that fight on top if it had continued.

Thank you some people on this board make it the be all be all feat

Originally posted by tkitna

And yet Reed Richards declared the Sentry the greatest hero the world has ever know (in front of Thor). wink

Yeah and to this day hasn't proved it

EDIT: Perhaps in his next mini

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Why would I even bother about your interpetations of Alpha Flight's "high" showings? I already dealt with the very first one you rattled off with your list. When you're ready to give Guardian sole credit for beating a weakened Galactus whose powers weren't working and was being assaulted by Alpha Flight and Avengers, you really think I can expect any better from any of your other citations? Especially when you honestly compare my use of two drawn out battles illustrated in Uncanny X-Men to your use of a single panel of Iron Fist dodging Sentry? Your imitating my logic? Please. We argued about Alpha Flight jobbing to the X-Men and a depowered Juggernaut. All you're doing is selectively pulling out single panels of Sentry, labelling them as embarassing and bashing the character.

You think getting raped by the Collective is a low feat. I don't. He was the sum total of millions of mutant signatures. Before the Collective was ever actualized on a comic book, any comic fan would have considered such a theoretical foe as nothing short of formidable. Fact is, it's the only foe that both Alpha Flight and Sentry actually fought and that's more than enough reason to compare their performances. Alpha Flight was murdered in less than a minute. Sentry actually managed to BFR him and go toe-to-toe. Do the math.

Lulz, yeah and you used faulty logic in doing so and notice how multiple times I even explained what happened him being weakened and being attacked you seem to keep acting like I have been ignoring it, when multiple times I have mentioned all of that before? Then you posted scans of Galactus getting hurt, nothing serious and nothing that actually caused lasting damage and the one scan you should have posted....you didn't. It showed Guardian taking him down in one-shot, and was validated by Quasar, HIS energy not anyone elses was messing with Galactus' internal energy and that's how he was brought down. Not by blasting him in the mouth or hitting him in the face, but messing with his internal energy. Like I said you missed the point, I'm using your logic brining up those examples.

It's a low feat when Iron Man can give the Collective a sporting fight, but apparently by what you say they got raped and that's that. Except he didn't really show anything all that special, and like I said insigificant characters were rocking the Collective. Except we didn't actually SEE their fight now did we? So how can we compare something when we don't know how one thing ended? In less then a minute? prove it. Sentry BFR him (threw him in the sun) when he was weakened and was helped by the New Avengers erm

OneDumbG0
^ I don't care for folks like you inserting hidden motives to my posts or putting words into my mouth. I posted the scans of the other folks fighting Galactus because I said that they were "putting a hurtin on Galactus" and you denied they did. Why would I then turn around and post a scan of Guardian doing his thing when it had nothing to do with the actual issue we were disputing? Same thing where I kept asking you to acknowledge that Galactus' powers were not working. I posted that scan for that specific reason. You act like I'm trying to hide the fact that Guardian got the last blow on Galactus. Please. Using your conspiracy theory style of insinuations, I could rightly turn around and accuse you of not mentioning that Galactus was attacked by Alpha Flight and the Avengers and his powers didn't work. And that you're not doing so is proof you were hiding those facts and I "exposed" you and brought it out to light for everyone else to see.

But you see, gloating over such a ridiculous idea would be unflattering and plain stupid. Exactly the way your baseless insinuations reflect on you. Your debating turned from interesting/civil to laughable/bellicose. You act like you're turning my logic against me when that's what I did to you from the start. You were the one who started this lowballing by gloating about Sentry getting knocked out by Ms. Marvel back on page 2 when I first posted:
Originally posted by -K-M-
Sentry got rocked by an amped up Ms.Marvel, so why people think Sentry is unbeatable is beyond me. Like I said, your specious bravado does nothing to change that fact or the fact that nobody else agrees with you on the Guardian/Galactus issue or the Alpha Flight/depowered Juggs fights. Nuff said.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I don't care for folks like you inserting hidden motives to my posts or putting words into my mouth. I posted the scans of the other folks fighting Galactus because I said that they were "putting a hurtin on Galactus" and you denied they did. Why would I then turn around and post a scan of Guardian doing his thing when it had nothing to do with the actual issue we were disputing? Same thing where I kept asking you to acknowledge that Galactus' powers were not working. I posted that scan for that specific reason. You act like I'm trying to hide the fact that Guardian got the last blow on Galactus. Please. Using your conspiracy theory style of insinuations, I could rightly turn around and accuse you of not mentioning that Galactus was attacked by Alpha Flight and the Avengers and his powers didn't work. And that you're not doing so is proof you were hiding those facts and I "exposed" you and brought it out to light for everyone else to see.

But you see, gloating over such a ridiculous idea would be unflattering and plain stupid. Exactly the way your baseless insinuations reflect on you. Your debating turned from interesting/civil to laughable/bellicose. You act like you're turning my logic against me when that's what I did to you from the start. You were the one who started this lowballing by gloating about Sentry getting knocked out by Ms. Marvel back on page 2 when I first posted:

Like I said, your specious bravado does nothing to change that fact or the fact that nobody else agrees with you on the Guardian/Galactus issue or the Alpha Flight/depowered Juggs fights. Nuff said.

Read my post again, as I said show me where any one else even came close to going anything remotely close to the damage output of Guardian? You posted scans of Galactus not even really getting hurt, or really wasn't suffering and the REAL REASON he was taken down which was backed by Quasar...you didn't post it. The team never even came close to doing any lasting damge what's so ever. I even multiple times said Galactus's powers wern't working why do you keep missing the entire point of the feat? Other herald type characters couldn't do what Guardian did to the weakened Galactus in ONE-SHOT. Them working together didn't even come close to the damage Guardian did, but you merely brush it a side. Ummm...what? right off the bat I said Galactus was weakened and the feat was the other people working together couldn't do what Guardian did. It didn't even have to be Galactus, it could have been some other character the feat is Guardian did what the team couldn't do and he did it with ease and with one-shot. That's the feat as I literally have said multiple times in this thread, yet you can't seem to grasp it.

Lulz, coming from the guy who said one hit equals a stomp and making claims of a fight we didn't even see. Yeah silly me for making baseless insinuations, oh the irony. Actually I am, as your the one using the X-Men feats even though it completly contradict years and years and years of comics. Yet apparently that doesn't matter, and you even ignored the context of those low showings. erm

Nobody? You should see other threads were it was brought up. Seriously do a search. Then again wern't you the guy that said classic Rogue could replicate Superman Prime feat in Countdown?

OneDumbG0
Originally posted by -K-M-
Read my post again, as I said show me where any one else even came close to going anything remotely close to the damage output of Guardian? You posted scans of Galactus not even really getting hurt, or really wasn't suffering and the REAL REASON he was taken down which was backed by Quasar...you didn't post it. The team never even came close to doing any lasting damge what's so ever. I even multiple times said Galactus's powers wern't working why do you keep missing the entire point of the feat? Other herald type characters couldn't do what Guardian did to the weakened Galactus in ONE-SHOT. Them working together didn't even come close to the damage Guardian did, but you merely brush it a side. Ummm...what? right off the bat I said Galactus was weakened and the feat was the other people working together couldn't do what Guardian did. It didn't even have to be Galactus, it could have been some other character the feat is Guardian did what the team couldn't do and he did it with ease and with one-shot. That's the feat as I literally have said multiple times in this thread, yet you can't seem to grasp it.

Lulz, coming from the guy who said one hit equals a stomp and making claims of a fight we didn't even see. Yeah silly me for making baseless insinuations, oh the irony. Actually I am, as your the one using the X-Men feats even though it completly contradict years and years and years of comics. Yet apparently that doesn't matter, and you even ignored the context of those low showings. erm

Nobody? You should see other threads were it was brought up. Seriously do a search. Then again wern't you the guy that said classic Rogue could replicate Superman Prime feat in Countdown? You make these blanket statements with such false bravado it makes me wonder if you are even reading the same scans as I am. What makes you think that Galactus wasn't being hurt by their combined assault when Vindicator actually exclaims that they are hurting him and Galactus' jaw is dropping from the pain and being knocked silly here:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2516/alphaflight10017ez9.th.jpg

I dunno... is he being tickled here in this scan:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7717/guardian01js5.th.jpg

Or in this scan where Hercules whacks him in the face and Kismet blasts him in the friggin mouth? Does he look like he's happy:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7757/guardian02xq0.th.jpg

Are you forgetting the fact that Quasar sums up the toppling of Galactus as, "... he couldn't stand up to us for long," which suggests a group effort:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9118/guardian03pl8.th.jpg

Hell... the very fact that Galactus resorts to threatening Vindicator to stop their combined attack suggests that he was desperate and thus was being hurt. Oh wait, we don't even have to rely on logic, we can just read what Galactus himself says, "Cease your attack Terrans, or this woman dies. This is not the way of Galactus, but my options have run out."

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2857/guardian04iq0.th.jpg

Of course Guardian got the last attack in and that's the shot that put him down. But the infantile way you characterize the entire situation as the others not being able to faze him and Guardian was the only one who could affect him is utterly absurd. I thought Thanos fanboyism was bad, apparently it doesn't hold up a candle to Alpha Flight fanboyism. Y'know, I won't convince you personally that the others helped, but even in your mind, you need to realize something. Hurting Galactus when he's weak is not a big deal. A single Mjolnir throw caused Galactus to retreat and his powers actually worked back then. So whether or not Guardian did topple Galactus all on his own isn't something to give him a parade for.

As for the Rogue = Superman Prime in Countdown... I have no idea what you're talking about. I said Black Adam's rampage in World War III was comparable to suited Superman Prime's rampage in Sinestro Corps War. Don't really know what you're referring to.

-K-M-
Because that's what was said, because the reason Galactus was taken down was messing with his internal energy which Quasar mentioned was key thanks to Guardian. Did anyone else even come close to replicate that feat? No, and you even post Hercules smacking him which is laughable if you think that's comparable. Also later Galactus right after gets Guardian to power his tech as he says he is the only one who can do it..that's another feat the other team couldn't do. Once again your completly missing the point, as even in this thread I said if Galactus DID have his powers he would destroy Guardian. Yet your not getting why the feat is impressive. Also even I said above show me where any of them even come close to doing the damage Guardian did. You didn't...again. erm

Once again how many times have I said it? I even said in above, defeating the weakened Galactus is not the main feat it's Guardian putting Galactus down when the team working together couldn't do what he did in just one-shot. How are you not getting this? Galactus was MOST DEFINETLY WEAKENED, that has been said many many many times, but your completly missing the point of the feat.

Incorrect again, the team was attacking together as they said was to keep him off-balanced so he couldn't figure out why his powers wern't working.

OneDumbG0
^ No you missed the god damn point with your silly strawman arguments. You characterize the team's assault as if it barely affected Galactus when their words, the art, Galactus' reactions and Galactus' use of hostage-taking all points otherwise. You have no idea whether or not Guardian's finishing attack did more or less damage than the previous combined assault. No proof whatsoever. Only conclusory logic. Show me proof that guardian did more damage than all the others. As it stands you could read it that way, it is plausible. but guess what? You could also read it in such a way that their combined did most, if not all the work and weakened galactus to such a desperate degree that he had to resort to taking Vindicator hostage and Guardian simply capitalized on that weakness. Fact is, there are more reasons that suggest the later than the former, i.e. the dialogue, Galactus' depicted reactions and his desperate use of histage-taking. You have absolutely no proof of what you're saying and are incorrigible. Nuff said.

-K-M-
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ No you missed the god damn point with your silly strawman arguments. You characterize the team's assault as if it barely affected Galactus when their words, the art, Galactus' reactions and Galactus' use of hostage-taking all points otherwise. You have no idea whether or not Guardian's finishing attack did more or less damage than the previous combined assault. No proof whatsoever. Only conclusory logic. Show me proof that guardian did more damage than all the others. As it stands you could read it that way, it is plausible. but guess what? You could also read it in such a way that their combined did most, if not all the work and weakened galactus to such a desperate degree that he had to resort to taking Vindicator hostage and Guardian simply capitalized on that weakness. Fact is, there are more reasons that suggest the later than the former, i.e. the dialogue, Galactus' depicted reactions and his desperate use of histage-taking. You have absolutely no proof of what you're saying and are incorrigible. Nuff said.

Yeah and they really didn't affect him that much and no again multiple times i literally said show me where they did anything even close to what Guardian did. I said it multiple times in this thread, multiple. Actually I do know for a fact as it actually DID put him down and down for good, and Quasar mentioned it was Guardian's specific energy that messed with his energy. erm The same energy Galactus got him to power his tech as only he could do it. He even took Vindicator as a hostage noted by her that they were attacking him keeping him off balance so he wouldn't know why his powers wern;t working. Soon as when she said that she grabbed and Galactus commented that was a good tactic, but now Galactus had time to "breath". No proof? Lulz, Galactus was knocked down and out by Guardian's attack no one else, and direct quotes by Quasar saying specifically his energy was messing with him, and even later Galactus got him to power his tech as even Quasar, Sersi, Her, etc. couldn't do it. Like are you serious?

OneDumbG0
^ Apparently not as serious as you are. Agree to disagree. Sharply. As it is, we're both wasting our breath on each other. This panel among all the other pages of them assaulting Galactus and knocking him over is all I need to know that it was a group effort, combined with Galactus being weakened, his powers not working in that dimension and Guardian's specifically attuned attack:

http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardian03pl8.jpg

-K-M-
Your right, we will just leave it at that as were going in circles

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