Sephiroth and Seymour vs Kefka and Kuja

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DantevsKratos
this fight takes place in Kingdom Hearts in front of the door

Pyron_Knight
Kuja beats Seymour.
The team together I think could win then.

HonkyTonkMan
Seymour's [email protected]

Sephiroth would beat'm alone.

Nah, probably Kefka and Kuja would win.

leonheartmm
kefka and kuja.

manoy
Sephiroth and Seymour would already have problems with Trance Kuja alone so definately Kefka and Kuja.

Terryc250
^ Not really, Sephiroth could take on Kuja, but Seymour is the weakest link here and i dont think Sephiroth could take Kuja and Kefka 2v1 unless Sephiroth blitz' one of them.

TricksterPriest
2 self-deluded demi-gods, vs. 2 actual gods.

This is pretty much spite. Kuja would tear Sephiroth apart. as would Kefka.

Dark-Jaxx
Kefka doesn't really have any feats above Sephiroth's to my knowledge.

But Seymour has like no feats at all.

Team 2.

leonheartmm
trance kuja > sephiroth's strongest form.

Terryc250
Originally posted by leonheartmm
trance kuja > sephiroth's strongest form.

Wrong.

Theres nothing Kuja can do to Sephiroth, theres plenty of things Sephiroth can do to Kuja.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Wrong.

Theres nothing Kuja can do to Sephiroth, theres plenty of things Sephiroth can do to Kuja. So if Kuja used Ultima on Seph, it would not hurt him?

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
So if Kuja used Ultima on Seph, it would not hurt him?

How can Ultima get through if even Holy couldn't? Sephiroths TK works on a thought, Holy, the antithesis of Meteor could've destroyed everything on the planet, Sephiroth stopped that, Kuja's Ultima destroyed buildings, and would get stopped before he even fired his first shot.

After that, he'd either get blitzed by Sephiroth, killed by the NL, or however Sephiroth chooses to kill him, keep in mind Sephiroth is tons faster then Kuja.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
How can Ultima get through if even Holy couldn't? Sephiroths TK works on a thought, Holy, the antithesis of Meteor could've destroyed everything on the planet, Sephiroth stopped that, Kuja's Ultima destroyed buildings, and would get stopped before he even fired his first shot.

After that, he'd either get blitzed by Sephiroth, killed by the NL, or however Sephiroth chooses to kill him, keep in mind Sephiroth is tons faster then Kuja. Ultima destroy a planet, Holy was said to be able to destroy anything on one. And Seph did not use TK to stop Holy.

Terryc250
Ultima destroyed buildings of a surfaceless planet, he didn't "blow up" a planet, and Sephiroth did, it was stated his will stopped Holy, willpower/TK same thing. And it didn't say "anything" its "everything"

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Ultima destroyed buildings of a surfaceless planet, he didn't "blow up" a planet, and Sephiroth did, it was stated his will stopped Holy, willpower/TK same thing. And it didn't say "anything" its "everything" Surfaceless planet? A few floating buildings do not equal a planet jack.

Will doesn't equal TK, don't know where you got that shit.

Show me when it said everything.

Also, wasn't it like...Bugenhagen that said it?

Terryc250
Alright, he stopped it with his willpower, Sephiroths willpower can stop physical things, he's stopping things with his mind, either word used, it doesn't matter.

Holy was stated to be the only thing to stop Meteor, the antithesis of Meteor, its atleast as powerful as that, Meteor was capable of ruining the entire planet, Bugenhagen said once Holy is released it could be the end of everything, Meteor, WEAPONs, , everything will dissapear, possibly even ourselves. I don't know where you got "anything" from. If Holy judged everything on the planet evil, everything will be gone.

Yes Bugenhagen said it, he's like the Guru of FF7

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Alright, he stopped it with his willpower, Sephiroths willpower can stop physical things, he's stopping things with his mind, either word used, it doesn't matter.

Holy was stated to be the only thing to stop Meteor, the antithesis of Meteor, its atleast as powerful as that, Meteor was capable of ruining the entire planet, Bugenhagen said once Holy is released it could be the end of everything, Meteor, WEAPONs, , everything will dissapear, possibly even ourselves. I don't know where you got "anything" from.

Yes Bugenhagen said it, he's like the Guru of FF7 Willpower is not TK though.

Meteor was capable of wounding the planet badly. Not annihilating it.

Bugenhagen is a fallible third party character. His word is not law.

He said it COULD be the end of everything, and his choice of words imply it would not be instantly.

Bugenhagen is a fallible third party character, his words were based on studies, not practice or experimentation, there is no way he could KNOW that.

Terryc250
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Willpower is not TK though.

Meteor was capable of wounding the planet badly. Not annihilating it.

Bugenhagen is a fallible third party character. His word is not law.

He said it COULD be the end of everything, and his choice of words imply it would not be instantly.

Bugenhagen is a fallible third party character, his words were based on studies, not practice or experimentation, there is no way he could KNOW that.

Works the same way

That wound would badly ruin the planet, if i recall correctly it was even stated that there would be a very small % of the population left after Meteor struck

The entire reason Bugenhagen was put in FF7, was so that he can explain to the players how the planet worked, Holy, the Cetra, the Lifestream, they're not going to put a random character in there and have him lie for no reason, thats stupid.

Thats why it left for openings for the player to choose what happened in the ending, people made they're own judgements on if Holy let the planet survive or if it eradicated everyone when it showed 500 years later and it showed midgar all dead with plants growing all over it (this was before AC came out)

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Terryc250
Ultima destroyed buildings of a surfaceless planet, he didn't "blow up" a planet, and Sephiroth did, it was stated his will stopped Holy, willpower/TK same thing. And it didn't say "anything" its "everything"

The game and many people in it said Kuja destroyed Terra. Because like you said: they're not going to put a random character in there and have him lie for no reason, thats stupid. and yet characters in FFIX have said Kuja destroyed Terra.

Game > You

And Sephiroth's TK or Will or whatever you feel like calling it was so great that he couldn't stop Omnislash...TWICE

leonheartmm
for the LAST time, kuja's ultima destroyed the ENTIRE planet with reletive ease. its stated in game, it can be seen after the cutscene, the party escapes terra through a dimensional rift, afterwards, NUTHING of terra remains, the planet is gone, garland is gone, the cycle of souls turning red and going to terra from gaea{all life force} is GONE!

not only that, ukuja also destroyed the crystal of creation with his power. and set up the multitudes of bosses including deathguise in memoria.

meteor would have WOUNDED the planet, nto destroyed it. that was the point, to wound life so the lifestream came guching out. and even though its been a LONG while since i played 7, but wasnt aerith's death half responsible for weakening holy?

with that said, kuja is quite easily stronger than sephiroth and would kill him.

ESB -1138
Square Enix even stated that Trance Kuja was like the second strongest villain in FF series and only Ultimatica (whoever you spell it) was stronger than Kuja.

Terryc250
Originally posted by ESB -1138
The game and many people in it said Kuja destroyed Terra. Because like you said: they're not going to put a random character in there and have him lie for no reason, thats stupid. and yet characters in FFIX have said Kuja destroyed Terra.

Game > You

And Sephiroth's TK or Will or whatever you feel like calling it was so great that he couldn't stop Omnislash...TWICE

See the things about you guys is you guys think that "destroyed" means "blow up", it was NEVER stated that Terra was "blown up" please learn the proper definition before you continue to make yourself look ignorant

Destroyed: To ruin; spoil; to render useless or ineffective

You can scratch a mirror until it becomes useless, and that could be stated as the mirror was destroyed, you can pour black paint over a painting, and say the painting is destroyed

Yes the character said Terra was destroyed, we saw Terra get destroyed, we saw Kuja ruin the surface, ruining the surface of a planet means being destroyed, the planet becomes useless and ineffective, theres no basis to claim the planet was blown up.

Sephiroth was toying around with Cloud, and Cloud caught him offguard with Omnislash, Omnislash happens in the blink of an eye Kuja's Ultima DOES NOT. Either way Cloud winning was a whole bunch of PIS, PIS wouldn't take place in a match against Sephiroth and Kuja.


Read above, Holy easily could've done the same thing to Terra, ruining all those stick buildings, and killing life.

What does Meteor have to do with this? Anyway, it would great a huge wound in the planet yes, but it would annihilate almost the entire population, you guys think that if Meteor hit, theres just going to be a hole in the planet and thats all, but thats not the case when a meteor hits, theres a huge aftermath, this is what it would be like if a meteor hit the planet

QlYmO4S_Dkk


No Holy was never weakened, it just had trouble stopping Meteor because Sephiroth held it for so long, but once he was gone it shot out, and stopped meteor but it was too late because meteor was already too close to the planet, so it needed help from the lifestream to disintegrate it faster before it hit.

But anyway, if Sephiroth was able to stop Holy, he would stop Kuja before Kuja even shot his first Ultima blast.


Stop lying, no they didnt.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Terryc250
See the things about you guys is you guys think that "destroyed" means "blow up", it was NEVER stated that Terra was "blown up" please learn the proper definition before you continue to make yourself look ignorant

Destroyed: To ruin; spoil; to render useless or ineffective

You can scratch a mirror until it becomes useless, and that could be stated as the mirror was destroyed, you can pour black paint over a painting, and say the painting is destroyed

Yes the character said Terra was destroyed, we saw Terra get destroyed, we saw Kuja ruin the surface, ruining the surface of a planet means being destroyed, the planet becomes useless and ineffective, theres no basis to claim the planet was blown up.

Yeah; you're right. Your word is higher then the game. That's right; despite the game itself telling you that Kuja destroyed an entire planet by himself; what they actually meant was to pour some paint on it. I love how you leave out the def. that actually has importance:

put out of existence by severe damage or attack

And your word is not higher then: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/destroy?view=uk

So again you fail. Kuja destroyed (put out of existence by severe damager or attack in the form of Ultima) a planet. Sephiroth has never even shown to come close to doing anything like this.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Sephiroth was toying around with Cloud, and Cloud caught him offguard with Omnislash, Omnislash happens in the blink of an eye Kuja's Ultima DOES NOT. Either way Cloud winning was a whole bunch of PIS, PIS wouldn't take place in a match against Sephiroth and Kuja.

And yet when push comes to shove Sephiroth was powerless to do anything.

Originally posted by Terryc250
What does Meteor have to do with this? Anyway, it would great a huge wound in the planet yes, but it would annihilate almost the entire population, you guys think that if Meteor hit, theres just going to be a hole in the planet and thats all, but thats not the case when a meteor hits, theres a huge aftermath, this is what it would be like if a meteor hit the planet

QlYmO4S_Dkk


No Holy was never weakened, it just had trouble stopping Meteor because Sephiroth held it for so long, but once he was gone it shot out, and stopped meteor but it was too late because meteor was already too close to the planet, so it needed help from the lifestream to disintegrate it faster before it hit.

The metoer in your little video is the size of a freakin' country. The one in the game was only the size of Midgar. That wouldn't have happened.

Terryc250
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Yeah; you're right. Your word is higher then the game. That's right; despite the game itself telling you that Kuja destroyed an entire planet by himself; what they actually meant was to pour some paint on it. I love how you leave out the def. that actually has importance:

put out of existence by severe damage or attack

And your word is not higher then: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/destroy?view=uk

So again you fail. Kuja destroyed (put out of existence by severe damager or attack in the form of Ultima) a planet. Sephiroth has never even shown to come close to doing anything like this.

... it COULD mean erase out of existence, or it could just mean it was ruined, i've givin you legit examples of "destroyed", there are different definitions but destroyed basically means

To ruin ; spoil
To render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
To subdue or defeat completely
To do away with; to kill

You can take away someones meaning of life, and they could say their entire life was destroyed, you don't literally have to blow up the person

As long as the object; thing, is rendered to a useless form, that is destroyed.

So going by the definition of "destroyed" either these 2 scenarios either happened:

1) Kuja completely ruined the surface, and reduced the planet into a useless form

2) He blew up the planet

Now we actually see scenario 1 happen; however, we DO NOT see scenario 2 happen so there is no basis to claim that he "blew up the planet".


The thing is, there was no such "push comes to shove" in their battle, it was Sephiroth playing around and dominating and dominating, then a blink of an eye later he was dead.

With the help of PIS, Omnislash caught him off guard.




Not exactly

Youtube Meteor
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/3586/youtubemeteorse7.jpg

FF7 Meteor
http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/9457/holypj6.jpg

The FF7 Meteor might be somewhat smaller but that youtube meteor, eradicated the entire planet, the FF7 would leave a very small population of the planet left.

The meteor was bigger then Midgar, even Nanaki said "Forget Midgar, we've gotta worry about the Planet"

leonheartmm
^terra was aeons ahead of gaia. the planet was consisted of crystal of WHICH the towers were contrsucted, look at the video the ground is ALSO an inferno when kuja unleashes ultima, and later, where the two planets were shown coming together, consistantly, only one planet is shown left. every1 agrees that kuja destroyed the planet, why is is so friggin hard for you to beleive that,m considering that his ultima even destroyed the crystal of origin, which was the be all of the entire universe????????????????????????????/// why is it that the dimensional breach to terra doesnt exist anymore if only the TOWERS were destroyed??????


and yes, it does come to that. sephiroth CUDNT stop omnislash and he cudnt SURVIVE omnislash. his facial expression tells enough that he wasnt ALLOWING cloud to do anything. his main purpose was not to torture cloud, but to defeat whoever stood in his path and take over the planet and use it as a vessel.

please, dont let being a fan cloud ur eyes. sephirtoh has lost twice to cloud.

Pyron_Knight
Kuja destroyed a planet.
Sephiroth never did.
All there is to it.

Wil7
It would end up as a fight between Sephiroth and Kuja.

I would take Sephiroth at the end.

UltimaKuja
Kuja and Kefka win. Real question is: How fast?

MadMel
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Square Enix even stated that Trance Kuja was like the second strongest villain in FF series and only Ultimatica (whoever you spell it) was stronger than Kuja.
where?

Dark-Jaxx
Yeah I would actually like to see where that is stated as well.

UltimaKuja
I seriously doubt that it is stated officially. It was probably a fan-made list.

Dark-Jaxx
It would make sense.

Ultimecia is the undisputed strongest FF character, with Sephiroth and Kuja behind, but which one of them is stronger is debatable IMO.

leonheartmm
^no necron is. and kuja is much stronger than sephiroth, without a doubt.

Dark-Jaxx
No he is not.

Ultimecia was absorbing all of time and space, all that existed.

leonheartmm
and necron was destroying all existance itself.

yes he most definately is.

Dark-Jaxx
Ultimecia was absorbing it all and adding it to her power.

So he has NEcron's feat, with the added benefit of being able to get even stronger by doing it.

Yay.

Terryc250
AC Sephiroth > Trance Kuja imo.

And that statement is make-belief, it doesn't exist.

Dark-Jaxx
I don't really see how either are MUCH stronger than either.

Kuja is more powerful and more durable, with great magical powers.

Sephiroth is stronger and faster, and has great powers with his sword.

Terryc250
We don't know the levels of Sephiroths durability so we can't really say Kuja's durability is greater.

But Sephiroth does have the physical power/speed advantage and his willpower/TK with the NL would put him above Kuja, since his willpower was great enough to even stop Holy.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
We don't know the levels of Sephiroths durability so we can't really say Kuja's durability is greater.

But Sephiroth does have the physical power/speed advantage and his willpower/TK with the NL would put him above Kuja, since his willpower was great enough to even stop Holy. Yeah, we can, since Sephiroth doesn't have a single durability feat that even comes remotely close to BASE Kuja's level. And we know it is not enough to take Omnislash, either version.

Terryc250
Because Sephiroth rarely ever gets hit, and usually just does no damage to him =\ he only gets hit by Omnislash a PIS move which has no properties, its basically just a villain killing move.

MadMel
the only thing PIS about omnislash is that seph was unable to avoid it..the fact that it owned him wasn't PIS, just the fact that it actually managed to catch him off guard somehow erm

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Because Sephiroth rarely ever gets hit, and usually just does no damage to him =\ he only gets hit by Omnislash a PIS move which has no properties, its basically just a villain killing move. The only PIS is that Sephiroth let Cloud do that gay move to him.

He has no durability feats to suggest otherwise, so Omnislash and Omnislash V.5 is his limit.

Terryc250
But where does Omnislash rank in killing-power? Thats the thing, no one knows, its not even a physical move.

Kazenji
Originally posted by MadMel
the only thing PIS about omnislash is that seph was unable to avoid it..the fact that it owned him wasn't PIS, just the fact that it actually managed to catch him off guard somehow erm

Yea that scene was stupid that sephiroth was just standing then cloud is like BOO !!..............then he does his omislash.

Dark-Jaxx
The first one was.

The second one was not.

And Sephiroth has been injured by less.

T3h Buster Sword.

Point is, unless Sephiroth gets a quantifiable durability feat on par with Kuja's, Kuja is more durable.

UltimaKuja
Trance Kuja > AC Sephiroth Imo.

What feats of durability does AC Sephiroth have? None? I thought so.

Anyone who thinks Kefka would loose to Seymour is.... well.
Kefka and Kuja is the winning team.

So, Terry, care to explain how they loose?

Dark-Jaxx
They don't, Seymour doesn't have a single feat to his name that I know of...Unless you count summoning Anima.

Terryc250
Like i said, because the only time AC Sephiroth got hit was by Omnislash.

That wasn't AC Sephiroth that got hit by the buster sword that was Sephiroth when he was a part human SOLDIER.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
Like i said, because the only time AC Sephiroth got hit was by Omnislash.
.

.....and then he died, remember? Sephiroth ain't immortal, not that you said he is, and can be hit/killed.

Defeat is enviable for Sephy and Seymour.

Terryc250
Again, the power of OmnislashV5 is unknown, Sephiroth is far more immortal then Kuja is, his body can be destroyed yes, but not his conscience.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
Again, the power of OmnislashV5 is unknown, Sephiroth is far more immortal then Kuja is, his body can be destroyed yes, but not his conscience.

Once his body is defeated he goes back to the lifestream, at least till he comes back.

Point is, even if that process takes 5 seconds, Sephiroth dies and leaves the field of play. Which is also the same for Seymour.

Death = left field = loose.

Even if he comes back and kills Kuja and Kefka in the end, he still lost this battle.

That's how I see it anyway.

Terryc250
His body goes to the lifestream but not his mind, but anyway i never did say team 1 wins, because imo Seymour is a pussy.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250 because imo Seymour is a pussy.

Can't argue with you on that.

Who's your vote going to then?

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Ultimecia was absorbing it all and adding it to her power.

So he has NEcron's feat, with the added benefit of being able to get even stronger by doing it.

Yay.

and necron had the INHERENT power to destroy all of existance.

and wtf, ultimecia is a woman.

leonheartmm
terry, no matter how mcuh u like sephiroth, you have do admit, kuja is LEAGUES above him in power in about every single way. destroying planets, destroying the crytal of creation etc etc.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and necron had the INHERENT power to destroy all of existance.

and wtf, ultimecia is a woman. ...So? Both could destroy all of existence, only Ultimecia could actually contain it all inside her, and make herself a virtual God.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by leonheartmm
terry, no matter how mcuh u like sephiroth, you have do admit, kuja is LEAGUES above him in power in about every single way. destroying planets, destroying the crytal of creation etc etc.

Terry will NEVER change his mind about "Kuja Vs Sephiroth", to him its all one way. "Sephiroth>Kuja".

I know from experience that trying to change his mind is pointless. Your still welcome to try though big grin

As for the thread, its quite simple logic;
Kefka>Seymour,
Kuja>Sephiroth.

And as for Anima, I wouldn't really consider it a feat but that's for the TC to decide if its valid.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
...So? Both could destroy all of existence, only Ultimecia could actually contain it all inside her, and make herself a virtual God.

only ultimecia had to gather the power of all the sorceresses and then grivers inside her over time and THEN she cud start absorbing all of space and time{which is different from destroying, i guess AFTER shed absorbed it, she wud have the power to destroy it as her power wud have increased}.

necron cud do it by default.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by leonheartmm
only ultimecia had to gather the power of all the sorceresses and then grivers inside her over time and THEN she cud start absorbing all of space and time{which is different from destroying, i guess AFTER shed absorbed it, she wud have the power to destroy it as her power wud have increased}.

necron cud do it by default. Ultimecia already had the power of all the Sorceresses to ever exist, she was the only and last living Sorceress of her time, therefore she inherited all the powers of any Sorceress prior. That is how the Sorceress Power works. She created Griever on the spot to fight the party. She did not need him.

Dude...Absorbing all of space and time IS destroying it, albeit in a more efficient fashion as it would only benefit her, it would make her a virtual God.

leonheartmm
no she didnt, which is WHY she brought about the time compression, to COLLECT the power of all the sorcerresses, and dont forget that she FUSED with griever, taking his power. absorbing all of space and time isnt the same. it like using the power of the universe to amp urself up and destroy the universe. necron had the power to destroy existance by default, even when the universe was alive and well.

SHM
Sorry guys, but Kuja isn't more durable than Sephiroth.
His durability feat was surviving a shot from Bahamut, on the Iifa Tree. Well... Cloud did the exact same think in AC, and Sephiroth's durability is much above him.
Not to mention that Sephiroth can regenerate parts of his body.

About Omnislash Version 5... That was a spiritual attack, that hit Sephiroth's soul directly.
Show me Kuja or Kefka surviving an attack like that. Oh wait, you can't.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no she didnt, which is WHY she brought about the time compression, to COLLECT the power of all the sorcerresses,

That's true:

The Tutorial's description of Time Compression:
Time Compression - "A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have on regular human beings.

Information presented when using Scan on Ultimecia, during the final battle:
A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and taking power from all sorceresses.

But lets stop talking about Ultimecia. She isn't part of this thread.



I don't know who wins this fight. Kuja could teleport Seymour and Seph to the center of the sun or another dimension, but Sephiroth could just speedblitz him before he can do that.
Sephiroth could use his illusions to distract them, but Kefka would just get pissed and destroy everything with the LoJ.
But Seph could turn intangible and then... You got the idea.
Many things could happen, there are too many variables.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by SHM
Sorry guys, but Kuja isn't more durable than Sephiroth.
His durability feat was surviving a shot from Bahamut, on the Iifa Tree. Well... Cloud did the exact same think in AC, and Sephiroth's durability is much above him.

Kuja survived a Direct attack from Bahamut.
Cloud, with Aerith's help, managed to go/phase THROUGH it. BIG difference IMO.



A) No Cloud = no omnislash. Omnislash is irrelevant.
B) It only proves that Sephiroth CAN be killed, even is his strongest form.
C) The Invincible was NOT able to draw/absorb Kuja's soul when Garland leveled Alexandria.

leonheartmm
there is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference between AC bahamut and friggin FF-9 bahamut. FF-9 bahamut was single handedly destroying the entire white dragon army andwwud have destroyed alexandria with reletive ease. also, NORMAL kuja, survived the shot from invincible which destroyed the eidolon alexander and garnet's home among other worlds. TRANCE kuja is on such a ridiculously different level of power that all those feats are irrelevant and pale in comparison to his planet busting power{and with EASE mind u}. the guy destroyed the crystal of creation!

and just because omnislash was magical/ethereal doesnt mean it was an attack on the soul.

SHM
1) Cloud survived a direct attack from Bahamut, and was able to dissipate the blast. That's something more impressive than what Kuja did IMO.
Not to mention that if you slow-down the video of that FMV, you can see the attack didn't hit Kuja directly, but it just hit an area close to him. He was very close to the explosion, but NOT at the center of it, like Cloud was.

2) Aerith is dead. Outside of using Great Gospel to cure Geostigma, she isn't able to help anyone. She is just a spirit, an intangible being.
Her appearance in the Bahamut Sin fight was just symbolic. All members of Avalanche were there, and then she appeared to remember Cloud that she was there with him too.

3) My point about Omnislash Version 5, is that it could Kill Sephiroth, only because of it's nature.
Cloud turns intangible and phase through Sephiroth's body, attacking his soul directly. Sephiroth isn't able to block an attack of that nature, but neither are Kuja and Kefka.
Like Sephiroth, Kuja and Kefka are very powerful in the physical world, but they don't have any "special shield" around their souls, protecting it.
Omnislash Version 5 would destroy Kefka and Kuja, if it hit them.

4) Garland NEVER used the Invincible to absorb Kuja's soul. He used it to attack Alexander, and that's all.
And even if Garland tried to do that and failed... So what? The Lifestream tried to absorb/dillute Sephiroth's soul too, and failed.

5) FFIX Bahamut have nothing that makes him superior to other Bahamuts.
He destroyed a fleet of airships made of WOOD, destroyed a small section of Alexandria with his fire-balls, and had his ass kicked by Alexander.
If you had played other FFs, you would know that any other Bahamut could have done that.

6) The Ultimania explains that Kuja and Zidane(probably Mikoto too), have the ability of absorbing souls to increase their power. And that's what Kuja did on Terra. He absorbed the souls of the Invincible to increase his power.
It have nothing to do with his durability.

7) Kuja isn't a planet-buster. He didn't blow-up a planet, he just destroyed the surface of it.
And he didn't destroy the Crystal. He used Ultima to attack the party in front of him... The Crystal was behind him.


I'm not saying that Kuja is weak, far from that. But anyone with good knowledge on FFIX and FFVII, knows that Sephiroth is superior to him in the physical department(durability, physical strength, speed, etc).

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by SHM
1) Cloud survived a direct attack from Bahamut, and was able to dissipate the blast. That's something more impressive than what Kuja did IMO.

Cloud didn't survive the attack.

Cloud, WITH AERITHS HELP, went through it. There was no explosion, so you cant really say he survived anything.
Even then he needed EVERYONE ELSE to gain the momentum to get that high up.



Actually, Kuja survived more then one shot from Bahamut.

http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vlcsnap243550en5.jpg

THREE attacks are clearly on course to hit Kuja.
One explodes in front of him, no argument there. BUT TWO OTHERS ARE RIGHT BEHIND IT AND DO HIT HIM!!
Since they ALL do splash damage you could say all three hit him, but in fact only 2 are direct hits.



Cloud is CLEARLY struggling to go fully through Bahamut's attack.
Aerith helped him through it, just like everyone else helped him to even intercept it.



Proof of Cloud turning intangible? He just looked fast to me.
Proof he attacked Sephiroths soul? Something official perhaps?

Im not saying that Kuja or Kefka has some special soul-protecting ability/shield, but I AM saying that weather it could kill either Kefka or Kuja is merely speculation on your part.

The Invincible DOES collect souls, since you don't see Kuja order it to, its logical to presume that it automatically tries after it is used.
Another flaw in your logic.... why would either Kefka or Kuja ALLOW Cloud the opportunity to use it? Sephiroth was arrogant and off-guard, NEITHER Kuja or Kefka would be.


First part explained above.
I was simply stating the only example I could to defend Kuja.
Anyway, soul killing/stealing/damaging attacks ain't a problem in this thread, right? Why argue over it?



Firstly, Bahamuts flame attack is by far its most powerful, its clearly obvious Bahamut could of leveled Alexandria/Midgar much quicker.
Secondly, Alexander it a SUPERIOR summon. It would own ANY incarnation of Bahamut just as easily.
Thirdly, if you had played FFIX you would know Kuja ORDERED bahamut what to do. Kuja was trying to draw out Alexander, it was his goal, which he succeeded in doing. He can't gain Alexander if Alexandria gets annihilated, can he?



Absorbing souls makes you stronger. Trancing makes you EVEN STRONGER.
I think its illogical to say his durability would stay at the same level as his normal form.



Firstly, Mikoto and red both say he destroyed a planet.

Mikoto: (on Terra) "But Garland is dead Terra will soon be destroyed"
Amarant: (On the airship) "Do you really think he perished with Terra" (Both "Perish" and "Destroyed" have been used to describe Terra's fate)
Mikoto: (AGAIN, at blk mages village) You saw Kujas power, he destroyed a world by himself..."


Its a FACT, a god-damn IN-GAME FACT put there by the games creators. Just like when you say something Bugenhagen says is a fact EVEN THOUGH in reality he couldn't know them things.
Just as Bugenhagen is a "guru" for explaining things in FFVII, Mikoto and Amarant are temporally "gurus" for explaining what happened on Terra.

You deny one "guru" you deny them ALL. You can't have your cake and eat it on this issue.

Edit: The fact ultima destroyed the crystal shows just how powerful it can be, destroying something with the shockwave of the attack from that range. I think that was the point.



Well no one is really saying Sephiroth is weak.
Kuja is superior in Magic (Magic attack, magic defence), however I disagree with you on durability for said reasons.

4RX
Seymour is probably the weak link here (not that he's weak, he's incredibly powerful), but Kefka and Kuja are huge powers that Sephiroth will need assistance against, probably from someone like...gee I don't know...Sin, who's basically Jecht. Sin has amazing feats from over 6 different FMVs from Final Fantasy X.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by 4RX
Seymour is probably the weak link here (not that he's weak, he's incredibly powerful), but Kefka and Kuja are huge powers that Sephiroth will need assistance against, probably from someone like...gee I don't know...Sin, who's basically Jecht. Sin has amazing feats from over 6 different FMVs from Final Fantasy X.

Correct, Seymour is the weakest one here. His presence in this battle is minimal to its out come. At least in my opinion.

Sin, eh? Interesting idea. Interesting and scary.
However its already been stated Sephiroth is stronger then Sin, something to remember.

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja

Firstly, Mikoto and red both say he destroyed a planet.

Mikoto: (on Terra) "But Garland is dead Terra will soon be destroyed"
Amarant: (On the airship) "Do you really think he perished with Terra" (Both "Perish" and "Destroyed" have been used to describe Terra's fate)
Mikoto: (AGAIN, at blk mages village) You saw Kujas power, he destroyed a world by himself..."


Its a FACT, a god-damn IN-GAME FACT put there by the games creators. Just like when you say something Bugenhagen says is a fact EVEN THOUGH in reality he couldn't know them things.
Just as Bugenhagen is a "guru" for explaining things in FFVII, Mikoto and Amarant are temporally "gurus" for explaining what happened on Terra.

You deny one "guru" you deny them ALL. You can't have your cake and eat it on this issue.

Where does it say he "blew up" the planet? "Destroyed" does not equal blow up.

The definition of destroyed is
"To render useless or ineffective"

Meaning, you if you wreck a surface of a planet and cause it to be useless, its considered "destroyed"

Perished means to die, a dead planet doesn't equal a "blown up planet"

The only thing we saw in that video was the surface being ruined, surface being ruined (rendered useless) equals "destroyed"

So there's really no basis to claim the planet was blown up.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
Where does it say he "blew up" the planet? "Destroyed" does not equal blow up.

The definition of destroyed is
"To render useless or ineffective"

Meaning, you if you wreck a surface of a planet and cause it to be useless, its considered "destroyed"

Perished means to die, a dead planet doesn't equal a "blown up planet"

The only thing we saw in that video was the surface being ruined, surface being ruined (rendered useless) equals "destroyed"

So there's really no basis to claim the planet was blown up.

You say tomarto, I say tomato.
There is ZERO basis for claiming Mikoto AND Amarant are lying/false/exaggerated, just because you have a lame dictionary definition. Why can't you just accept that the characters say it because it happened?

Since we ain't gonna agree on this, lets just agree that its a hella lot more then Sephiroth accomplished, shall we?

My basis is ingame quotes from the characters.
And the fact you can't ever go back there.

Your basis is you want Sephiroth to look superior.

Terryc250
What are you talking about? You are the one assuming that "destroyed" means "blown up" which is false/wrong/bogus/fictitious/etc

I never said they were lying did I? What they said IS correct, Kuja did destroy the planet, but he did NOT blow it up. Destroyed does not equal blown up, comprehend. Since we did not see the planet get blown up, we cannot assume it did.

Sephiroth accomplished stopping an attack similar to if not more powerful then Kuja ultima, with sheer willpower.

He also accomplished taking control over the entity Jenova, and the source of the entire planet.

He also accomplished reviving himself after the game, and probably will revive himself again.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
What are you talking about? You are the one assuming that "destroyed" means "blown up" which is false/wrong/bogus/fictitious/etc

Scroll up please. I said "Destroyed" I did not even mention "Blow up", you brought that up.



Just when did he stop said attack that was coming right for him?
I assume you mean he held the energy back? Kinda different.



Well if this is a feat of... something.
Then so is Kuja absorbing and taking over the thousands of souls he did.



Naturally you would say such a thing. I really see the long line of Kadaj's just waiting to turn into Sephiroth.
Even if he did, he would just get crushed again. Not exactly a winning record Sephiroth has, is it? Your stating this as a feat? Of what? His ability to loose?

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
Scroll up please. I said "Destroyed" I did not even mention "Blow up", you brought that up.
I assumed thats what you were pushing for since you got so defensive when SHM said he didn't blow up the planet.



Just what difference does it make if he stops an attack going at him or going towards the meteor? Is it supposed to be harder? Because it isn't. If you're capable of stopping a bullet, what difference would it make if the bullet was going towards you, or going towards your friend? If you can stop it, you can stop it, thats the bottom line.


And what did the souls grant him? The lifestream is billions of souls, it contains all the souls of everyone who has ever died on the planet, its the source of energy, life, magic, power.


Kadaj is a spirit body, created by Sephiroth, so i don't see what you are referring to by "a long line" ? But anyway, you seem to be talking like Kuja didn't lose? He died didn't he? Hes gone isn't he? Too bad he doesn't have the power to will himself back to life.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
I assumed thats what you were pushing for since you got so defensive when SHM said he didn't blow up the planet.

Im done trying to argue about it. Blown up or destroyed, means the same thing for the planet.





Holy was not exactly shooting up in an aggressive posture, it was just rising to the surface to eliminate the threat.
It's more like the difference between stopping a fired bullet and a non-fired bullet, where the gun is aimed at you.
That's how I see it in comparison.




What did the souls grant him? Ummm, did you miss that part of FFIX?
Kuja took his souls.... just like that.
Sephiroth had to go through an elaborate plan, he didn't even accomplish.
So, Sephiroth took billions of souls? Okay, nice power boost he had.
Kuja took a few thousand.... now lets imagine him taking a billion.... Yeah.... sooooo close.




Seph needs another body and he needs that body to absorb J-cell, explain how he accomplishes this.



Did you see Kuja OWNING and KILLING his main enemies? Did Sephiroth manage that? No. He got F.U.B.A.R'd. As far as the battles went, no, Kuja did NOT lose.


No evidence exists either way. I not saying he does survive, but i'm not saying he doesn't.
All you get to go on is... "Don't go dying on me"



Excuse me..... EXCUSE MEE!? Have you seen a movie in which that is stated?
Did FFIX creators say he "CAN'T" come back?

As far as anyone was concerned when they completed FFVII Sephiroth was finished forever. Didn't stay so.
You think the same for Kuja. Okay, they ain't gonna make a movie showing it, but like Sephiroth it can happen.


Now, Kuja still can teleport Sephiroth away.

Kuja also has a TK ability himself.

Minor evidence;
When Zidane and the gang are trapped in Kuja's palace Kuja opens the floor with the lava under it on command. He also opens the cell door on command.

Major evidence;
Once Zidane returns with the stone he refuses to hand it over.
The stone then glows and floats straight into Kuja's hand.
The stone don't have a will of its own.
Zidane didn't do it.
Conclusion: Kuja used his powers to make it happen.

stick out tongue stick out tongue stick out tongue

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja

Im done trying to argue about it. Blown up or destroyed, means the same thing for the planet.

No it doesn't.. if you extinguish the planets life, its purpose, and render it into a useless form, its considered destroyed. Everything it was is no more, its just a rock floating in space.


No.. Aeris summoned Holy to stop Meteor before she died, afterwards Sephiroth stopped it before it was able to destroy meteor. The example you gave would be compared to if Sephiroth stopped Holy before it was summoned which is false, Aeris summoned it already before she died.


And? Did Kuja get anymore powerful? What do you mean Sephiroth didn't even accomplish? In AC he gained power of the negative lifestream.


He created Kadaj, Loz, Yazoo with willpower, the spirit bodies, he guided his spirit bodies to take the J-cells, and with the J-cells he regenerated his physical form.


No i didn't see Kuja "owning" i saw him getting owned then going kamikaze.

Actually he was losing and when he knew he was gonna die anyway, he went kamikaze and killed himself with the party.

Sephiroth was owning Cloud with ease until the PISslash kicked in out of no where.


If Kuja was alive they would show him in the ending being alive. However Zidane was alone.

Did they say he can come back? Did he ever do anything even remotely close to that? No? Ok then.

Its just as ridiculous as me claiming Sephiroth can blow up the universe with a gesture, Sephiroth has never shown that kind of power, so i cannot baselessly claim he can.


Uhh no, see Sephiroth has always had that power since he has Jenova's will. When his SOLDIER human body was destroyed before FF7 started did he die? No. His willpower kept him alive and he reformed his body. When FF7 was over, I knew there was still a possibility that Sephiroth can come back since he's done it before, and guess what, he does come back. Even at the end of AC he hints that he'll never be just a memory hinting that he'll be back again.

But again, has Kuja ever done anything that remotely suggests he can do that? No.


And Sephiroth can just speedblitz him and straight cut off his head before Kuja can think of doing anything

All he'll see is
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6812/sephibo8.gif

before his head comes off.




So...? None of that is battle worthy, all its good for is wanking Sephiroth off.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by SHM
Sorry guys, but Kuja isn't more durable than Sephiroth.
His durability feat was surviving a shot from Bahamut, on the Iifa Tree. Well... Cloud did the exact same think in AC, and Sephiroth's durability is much above him.
Not to mention that Sephiroth can regenerate parts of his body. And by feats Kuja's Bahamut is stronger than the Sin Bahamut, so your point is stupid.

No he can't. Only Bizarro could, if you wanna call that "regenerating."

Kirikaze Fuuma
Cloud survived Bahamut sin's blast. the much smaller one caused a big explosion and destroyed the surrounding area. and this one? Cloud survived the much bigger one which is obviously more powerful.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
The example you gave would be compared to if Sephiroth stopped Holy before it was summoned which is false, Aeris summoned it already before she died.

No, the analogy you gave was BS. You can't compare a potentially world destroying magical attack to a little projectile.




Before he absorbed souls... Kuja: "Strong enough to bury Garland. His powers are so strong I don't even come close."

After absorbing souls... Kuja: "You're telling me that I'll die soon, now that I'm more powerful than anyone?"

Also Garland used one magic spell on Zidane and Zidane was rendered almost helpless.
Garland had enough time to try it on Kuja, but knew it wouldn't work.



Pity Sephiroth cant just materialize another "Jenova's head", which is what they was looking for to become Sephiroth.

No head = No reunion.



Owning A. On Terra, after killing Garland. The party was on the floor unable to move. They only JUST escaped because they had an airship AND because Garland distracted him.

Owning B. At "Crystal world", Kuja kills every single one of them. Kuja didn't kill himself, he survived.

Kuja's second ultima was so powerful it not only killed them all, it also destroyed the crystal that was at quite a distance. He endured the entire attack all by him self.



Lets just say you're right, for the sake of it.

Kuja sees he can't win and does the only thing he can. Which actually DOES give him the victory.
Sephiroth is so blinded by his pride/arrogance he wouldn't see it coming a mile away, which is why he ALWAYS looses.

You really proved Sephiroth superior with that one!



I'm simply open to the fact Kuja COULD of lived through the entire game.
I am not saying he did because there is no evidence he did.
I didn't exactly see a funeral for Kuja though, did you?

In the end one thing CAN be said.
Sephiroths memory is a short lived one, no one really want to remember him.
Kujas memory will live forever;

"Kuja... what you did was wrong... But you gave us all one thing... hope... we were all created for the wrong reason, but you alone defied your fate. We do not want to forget this. We want your memory to live on forever... to remind us that we were not created for the wrong reason... that our life has meaning."




Garland somehow managed to hold on as well. His conscious did not die, even after his death. Does that mean that he is as strong as Sephiroth?

No? Then kindly stop trying to use that as an excuse to promote "Sephiroth>Kuja".

If anything, I could say that since Kuja>Garland, at the end, then Kuja can hold on just like Garland did.
Though I admit it's a theory, its plausible.



Guess thats all a fanboy really needs. A little hint and you're practically hanging out the "Welcome back, Sephiroth" banners.




Thats pure fail, with a capital F.


All the Shin-ra guards...
President ShinRa...
The people he burned to death (With his little petrol can and lighter)

When has he EVER decapitated someone?

Okay then, Kefka will just poison Sephiroth.
And all sephiroth will see before he dies is...

http://fc59.deviantart.com/fs9/i/2006/045/8/c/Kefka__s_ROFLs_Have_Ridges_by_Lemunde.gif



Considering how powerful Kuja is... you're saying his TK is nothing? If TK is based on will power then you are wrong. Proof Kuja has a strong will.

Garland: "But 24 yours years ago, I gave life to a Genome that was very much like you. His will was too strong to make him into a proper vessel,"

I'm noticing your lacking in displaying how Seymour can help Sephiroth, this is a 2Vs2 after all.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Cloud survived Bahamut sin's blast. the much smaller one caused a big explosion and destroyed the surrounding area. and this one? Cloud survived the much bigger one which is obviously more powerful. And is also not quantifiable.

But we must assume it was bigger than Bahamut's in FFIX, right?

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja

No, the analogy you gave was BS. You can't compare a potentially world destroying magical attack to a little projectile.
.. In what way is it incorrect? If a bullet, or anything for that matter, was firing, it wouldn't make much of a difference if it was firing at you, or your peer. There is no difference in the difficulty level.



So.. his power is that he's stronger then someone? But what is he capable of doing now? That is the question.


It was the Jenova cells they were looking for, thats what transformed into Sephiroth, however after the events of AC, Jenova cells still exist on the planet, its only a matter of time before Sephiroth finds another way to restore himself.



Come on now, the FF9 party has little to no feats. Cloud could probably take on the FF9 party by himself.


Too bad Kuja isn't Cloud, so Sephiroth wouldn't be arrogant against him. Fallacy logic.



No, nor did i see a funeral for Tifa's dad, but it still means he's most likely dead, after what Sephiroth did to him.

Sephiroths memory is a greater memory then Kuja's, why do you think theres so many more fans of Sephiroth then their are of Kuja?


Did Garland restore himself? No? K.


Fallacy logic, will and power are 2 seperate things.


Actually its from the producers, not just me, this was stated in the RF

Morikawa also noted that, with Sephiroth's on-screen presence, he knew his final lines had to be done properly, and with input from the director, gave Sephiroth's iconic final words a sense that "he's not done yet".


Well we don't actually see every single person Sephiroth has killed, but using common sense, if he has a sword and can kill people with it, whats to say he cannot decapitate anyone? Nothing at all.

You're talking nonsense, how would Kefka poison Sephiroth? No answer? K.


That does not mean he has a strong TK lol, that could be considered a strong will in the FF9 maybe,

But if you have a strong will as in you can actually will yourself to life, and prevent yourself from dying, now THAT is a strong will.

Kuja has done nothing special with his TK.


I'm noticing your lacking the intelligence to realize i haven't been talking about Seymour or Kefka at all.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
.. In what way is it incorrect? If a bullet, or anything for that matter, was firing, it wouldn't make much of a difference if it was firing at you, or your peer. There is no difference in the difficulty level.

I guess a cop with body armor can survive Holy as well? Failed logic.



Destroy all of existence maybe?
Something he did when he destroyed the crystal.
I don't see Sephiroth opening a portal to another dimension and destroying the crystal of all life.



Okay, so he can come back. So what? Does me make him uber powerful? No. Does it make him special? NO!

Maester Mika, Maester Seymour, Auron, Jyscal Guado, Yunalesca.... they all overcame death. Did they become uber powerful? Are they immortal? Did one summoner have the power to send them? Yes? K.

I want him to come back again myself. Then I can laugh at him when he gets owned by Cloud again.



I assume you base that off feats ONLY seen in the game? No? Well.....
You're just a bias little FFVII fan, and Picard would like to have a word with you...

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6104/picardfinger2mi7.jpg

Cloud would have trouble just going against Trance Zidane!



Was talking about Cloud owning Sephiroth every time they fight.
I'm sorry your precious Sephiroth ain't as smart as Kuja, but its just a fact.

Its also a fact the Kuja can create things from memories.
Kuja: "I'm surprised you beat the 4 chaoses that I created from the crystals memory."

He said he could. He actually did. He can do it again.

Dont like it? Go complain to Square-Enix. So, you just admitted that Sephiroth is arrogant and will loose to Cloud. Okay, Kuja creates Cloud from Sephiroths memory.

Failing that, Kuja could just control all the heartless. Its already proven that Kuja can create and control monsters. This is taking place at the gates to KH after all.



Cause Tifa's dad is an important character, just as important as Kuja.
Umm... no one cares about Tifa's dad?

I can't prove he lived.
You can't prove he died.
It don't have ANY impact on this thread. Can we drop it now?


You know I meant about the CHARACTERS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE WORLD!

Kuja is gonna be remembered by an entire race.
Sephiroth is gonna be remembered by....? Who actually WANTS to remember Sephiroth? No one? K.



Did Garland manage to prevent his will from fully dying? Yes? K.
Is Kuja stronger then Garland? Yes? K.


Now tell me how this has an impact on the fight. It don't? K.

Sephiroth come back = Cloud owns him again = Happy me.
Just gives me more reason to laugh at hard-core Sephiroth fans.



Normal person = Yes, they are normal little humans with no power.
Kuja = No, superior lifeform capable of destroying worlds, creating portals to other dimensions and teleporting people at will.

Note how I did NOT say "Blow up".



Easy way: Cast bio? o.O
Hard way: Break a poisonous potion open after Sephiroth impales him?

I'm just stating something that CAN happen, its not like it my hard-core way of winning. lol.



FFIX REALLY goes on long enough after the events of crystal world.
As I recall it took Sephiroth 5 years the first time?

And he don't prevent himself from dying. If he could he would of just recovered after omnislash. While he might not "die", he definitely can't be considered "alive".


Like he really needed to.


Anyway.
Sephiroth has no known defense against being teleported? No? K, Kuja wins by teleporting Sephiroth away.
Now all thats left is for Kuja to Kill Seymour, so many ways..... so much time.

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
I guess a cop with body armor can survive Holy as well? Failed logic.

What? You're not making any sense.


And what durability feats does the crystal have?

Kuja cannot destroy all of existance under his own power rofl.



Umm, you know i'm just correcting you, i never said Sephiroth is powerful BECAUSE he is in a way immoirtal. He's powerful becauase of his abilities.


Atleast he can come back unlike someone.

I base it off feats, yes.

And wow, very mature. How old are you?


umm no.. Zidane has zero feats to put him even close to Clouds level.


Umm Cloud wasn't owning Sephiroth in the AC fight, did you even watch it? He won via PIS-slash, Sephiroth didn't use any of his powers and was toying with him, and still was owning him. Sephiroth > Cloud, thats fact.


Please show me Kuja creating something from a living beings memory INSTANTLY, going by that logic Kuja can create a bunch of himself from Zidanes memory, hell he can create another Zidane from Daggars memory, lol fail.

I admit Sephiroth was arrogent to Cloud, because of his hatred for him.

And unless you show me Kuja being able to create things from a living beings memory, INSTANTLY, your point is moot.


Thats irrelevent, i'm just saying just because we don't see a funeral or it isn't directly stated, its common sense that he died because theres nothing that suggests he survived.


What relevence is this anyway? Kuja is going to be remembered by a race?

Even before the events of FF7, Sephiroth was a renowned as a famous war hero.

... Huh? So let me get this straight, you think because Kuja is stronger, he will have every ability then anyone who is weaker then him? Going by that logic, since Hulk is stronger then the Flash, that would make the Hulk faster then Flash?

Again Will and Power are two seperate things.


... Can you stop acting like a 10 year old? I'm merely just replying to your comments. I can go to every single one of your reply like this one, and the previous one and say "How does this impact the fight", but its ridiculous.


What???? Dude, are you even reading my posts?

You said Sephiroth has never decapitated anyone, and that was my response.



Umm yeah that would never happen.


Yeah but the thing is, Sephiroth has done it more then once, these guys have NOT, and nothing suggests that they will.

He doesn't totally die, his body is gone, but his conscience isn't dead.



So theres no basis to claim he can.

Show me Kuja instantly teleporting someone. It probably wouldn't even work against Sephiroth he's far faster then anyone Kuja has fought, and would be behind him even before Kuja makes a gesture.

If it was a one on one fight, Sephiroth would take out Kuja.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
And what durability feats does the crystal have?
Kuja cannot destroy all of existance under his own power rofl.

Never said he could.
I said that Sephiroth couldn't, even if he tried.
Kuja at least CAN get to the crystal.



I'm not saying Sephiroth ain't powerful.
I'm saying Kuja is more powerful.
Kuja>Sephiroth.


The real point is he needed to, because a weak arse Cloud owned Sephiroth in the reactor.

The fact he actually needed to shows just how weak Sephiroth was originally. Kuja was not originally anywhere near that weak.


Cloud can't own Kuja, so I don't give a crap.

Cloud>Zidane or Zidane>Cloud..... really don't care.
Having said that, I still don't think Cloud was THAT much better then Zidane. w/e though.



I know Sephiroth is superior to Cloud. Its a simple fact, and yes I did watch AC.... multiple times.
It's also a fact that Sephiroth got OWNED by Cloud, even if it was by a pis attack.
It will probably be the same if Sephiroth comes back again.

Hence: Sephiroth gets owned by Cloud. Multiple times.



Well, like it or not, Kuja can create things from memories. Dress it up how you like, its a FACT!

By your "lol, fail" logic I can say AC Sephiroth has no powers, based on the fact you don't see them in AC.
Naturally your argue that SE says he does. Well SE also says Kuja can, get over it.
Next your be saying that Kuja can't control monsters. >_>



I can't do that anymore then you can show me Sephiroth creating Kadaj.
My point ain't "moot" because he CAN do it. Its proven by the game its self, I don't have to prove s*** to you.




I could point out hundreds of movies/shows where someone is presumed to die and don't.

Allow me say this so you can understand: It is never decisively stated if Kuja died or not.
So, unlike your hero Sephiroth. You can't even say "Kuja died" and be 100% sure (Unless you hate him)




.. .. .. ..
Well since this is now about stuff like this.
Even before the events for FF9, Kuja was;
The richest noble,
Owned the auction house,
Owned his own desert palace,
Owned his own dragon,
Owned his own airship, which is the strongest weapon in the game.




Stop making crap up.
Kujas will was to strong for Garland to control.
As far as other genomes were concerned "Master Garlands will is absolute."
If Kujas will is to strong for Garland to control, and Garlands will can survive after his corporal form is destroyed, then Kuja can as well.




Its in the damn game.

"Probably wouldn't even work" Urrgh.... thats a rock-solid defense you got there.
Speed has nothing to do with it.
A) Sephiroth won't be expecting it.
B) Teleporting is not a projectile attack.




Kefka would like to have a word with you.
CyZoe-r9qb0

Kuja would cripple Sephiroth. Got it memorized?

.....



Kuja would like to have a word with you too.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a320/SelenaWolf/Final%20Fantasy%20IX/KujaTime.png

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja

Never said he could.
I said that Sephiroth couldn't, even if he tried.
Kuja at least CAN get to the crystal.

I dont really care if Kuja can get to a crystal...

Sephiroth is more powerful, more versatile.
Sephiroth > Kuja
In terms of versatility, speed, strength, etc.


That was Sephiroth while he was still a human, which is far weaker then the power/body he gained in AC.


It doesn't really matter since that was just a flashback Sephiroth from years before the game even started, we're talking about the recent Sephiroth, he's got far more powerful.


And Zidane can't even come close to Sephiroth, so your logic here of Cloud beating Sephiroth is as fail as Zidane beating Kuja.


Zidane is like Yuffie level.


Not if it was a realistic battle, and Sephiroth actually fought with the intent to kill.

But of course for plot reasons the producer would not allow that, and would probably through in another PIS event that would somehow cause Sephrioth to lose.


Won't help him in his battle, because Kuja has never done anything like that to a living being (Sephiroth) and he has never done it instantly either.


But its written in the guides from the creators, and its shown through his remnants, and in the FF7 storyline.

SE says Kuja can what? SE said Kuja can create things from a LIVING being's memory INSTANTLY? No they didn't.


Actually it was stated in the ultimania that Sephiroth manifested them, so yeah, its fact that he created them.

It won't help him in a fight, because he can't do it instantly and he can't do it from living beings, so yes, your point is moot.

You don't have to prove s*** to me? Ok, concession accepted.


Yeah but the fact is they ended up living. If the scene where they ended up living was NOT included in the movie. then they would be considered DEAD. Just like Kuja. He doesn't have a scene where it shows him living now does it?


Unless it shows him surviving then sorry, but he's considered dead.



.. I don't really care what Kuja owns, or how much money he has..



Whats to say Garland survived on sheer willpower and its not just an ability he has?
Whats to say Garland controls the Genomes on sheer willpower and its not just an ability he has?
All of these things you're claiming is just assumption with no real evidence.



So if its shown in the game, then show me the video of it.

Kuja has never teleported anyone who is moving at fast speeds, or hell even avoid being teleported, if he could simply teleport people against their will he would've just teleported the party into a lava pit or something.



If you have the time to post these irrelevent pointless videos, then find me a video of Kuja teleporting the partty against their will or moving around.

leonheartmm
im sorry terry, but im putting my foot down. there is now way in HELL that sephiroth even at his strongest can HOPE to take on trance kuja. none whatsoever. its just the way it is. the THING is, ff-9 is on a very different power levels as far as story/phenomenon go than ff-7 ever was. its similar to ff-8, only bigger. even though sephiroth will still probably be cooler{in the minds of most}, but still, as far as power goes.....naah, everything{even conterparts like summons/airships/spells etc} are stronger by magnitudes in ff-9 when compared to ff-7.

leonheartmm
and btw, trance zidane is actually stronger than trance kuja, for those of you were paying attention to the story.

Terryc250
What can Trance Kuja do to AC Sephiroth? Sephiroth has more abilities and is far faster and can basically stop anything Kuja can do to him.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
I dont really care if Kuja can get to a crystal...

Well I DO care that Kuja has a feat that Sephiroth don't. DEAL WITH IT!



Key words are missing "In my opinion."

Kuja is more powerful. He destroyed a planet, killed all the protagonists, survived a point blank ultima (followed by a 1000foot fall), survived a direct attack from mutiple megaflare attacks AND opened a frigging portal to another dimension.

Has Sephiroth done ANY of the above? No? K.



Im simply stating how much of a weakling Sephiroth was at the beginning of FFVII, compared to Kuja at the begging of FFIX.

Don't like that fact? Go complain to SE.



Yes, I know AC Sephiroth>Zidane.
Cloud will always be >Sephiroth, in any new game or movie related to them. Im not saying Cloud is superior to Sephiroth, but in the end it will always END the same.

"Zidane>Kuja" is failed, correct. Did I say that "Zidane>Kuja"? No? Mmk



Thats a baseless, factless speculation. You complain to me about doing this? I guess your exempt from that directive.

Trance Zidane is way above Yuffie.



You can't change how Sephiroth acts towards Cloud anymore then you can change the fact that Kuja>Sephiroth.



A memory is a memory. Weather it be a crystals memory or a persons.
You can't claim that he never did it instantly.




Informative, but hardly conclusive.
Why are you still going on about this? Do you really hate Kuja THAT much to push an irrelevant point to the thread?

You can't prove he dies! Please just accept this and move on. Can't you face that Kuja could have another feat Sephiroth don't (Surviving to the end of the game)?
Oh well. Not my problem.


I don't care how famous Sephiroth WAS.



Ability? LMFAO. The mother of all assumption.
Garland died then speaks to you with his spirit. In my book that means he held on with will his willpower. WTF in the game suggests otherwise?

Like what? Threatening all the little genomes with getting out his robotic penis? PE-LEASE. Stop making stuff up. Show me evidence he uses another form of control other then will power. Can't? K.

I see, I "assume with no real evidence" and its like a massive crime. You do it and its completely acceptable?

There's no other way except will power that explains his will hanging on.
If Garlands will can't control Kuja then Kuja's will is superior. If Kuja's will is superior then he CAN hold on to.

How the f*** is that based on no evidence?



Speed is irrelevant to non-projectile magic attacks.
When has someone teleported him against his will?

And Sephiroth could of just killed cloud after killing Aerith, but did he?
In-fact he could of killed them in their prison cells, but did he? No? Kinda failed point.

I don't recall Kuja EVER asking Zidane and co if he could teleport them.
He did it against their wills, WHILE HE WAS CLOSE TO FUDGING DEATH!
Its a fact that people are SERIOUSLY weakened when close to death.

And again, Kuja couldn't even SEE Zidane or his friends, so it kinda makes it easier for Kuja to teleport Sephiroth.
He don't even have to see him.

Full power Kuja = much easier to teleport others.

Trying to argue with you is like trying to destroy a Borg cube with a brick. >_>

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and btw, trance zidane is actually stronger than trance kuja, for those of you were paying attention to the story.

Zidane was going to be stronger, but was NOT at any part of FFIX. Garland himself admits that.

Zidane: "You mean you won't need Kujas soul once I grow stronger than him?"
Garland: "Precisely... Soon, that time will come."

AND THATS BEFORE KUJA IS ABLE TO TRANCE.

Terryc250
Originally posted by UltimaKuja
Well I DO care that Kuja has a feat that Sephiroth don't. DEAL WITH IT!
... Deal with what? That Kuja can get to a crystal? Cool, i don't care.



Kuja only has more power output, thats it. But Sephiroth has stopped a power of the same scale, and its not like he is going to stand there and let him do it anyway.

Sephiroth has taken over the source of the planet, took control of the Jenova entity, stopped a power that was capable of destroying everything on the planet with sheer will, restored himself after his body was destroyed a couple times, has Kuja done any of that? No.


It doesn't matter where you start, it matters where you finish. Sephiroth never tapped into his full potential power until he learned the knowledge while he was in the lifestream.


Huh? It doesn't bother me actually, because like i said, how powerful Sephiroth was as a human is not relevent to this fight, because we're talking Sephiroth AFTER he gains his powers.


Only because of Plot reasons. In these kinds of fights, there is no plot.

Its just as failed as you claiming Cloud>Sephiroth.
No you didn't say Zidane>Kuja, i did. Just like how you said Cloud>Sephiroth.


They have about the same level of feats.


How Sephiroth acts towards Clouds is irrelevent to how Sephiroth would act towards Kuja, duh.

Sorry but Kuja cant do anything to Sephiroth.



There's a big difference between something that is alive and an object. I can claim he didn't do it instantly because like i said, if he can do it on a whim and instantly why doesn't he just create a bunch of himselves form zidanes memory, or create zidanes from daggars memory, etc. So it seems like he cannot do it this easily now does it?


No, i'm just replying to you're nonsense talk.

Kuja died, end of story, unless you can prove he survived, with some evidence then you have no point. Even if he did somehow survive which it never showed him surviving, it would only be because Zidane saved him.



You're really strange you know that? I'm talking on-topic about the "memory" point you brought up, because you see, being famous has to do with being a memory for people.

Then you go and say irrelevent things like Kuja has alot of money and owns a house, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about, so i tell you i don't really care, then you go and say you don't care about Sephiroth being famous(which has something to do with the topic unlike what you're saying)

If you don't care about the topic, don't bring it up.


Oh so Garland really did die? Talking to someone spiritually does not mean he's still alive, it happens all the time in fiction. Aeris talks to Cloud sometimes like in the city of ancients in AC for examples, it doesn't mean she's still alive.


Umm i don't do it, thats the difference, everything i claim i base on actual facts, things you claim are baseless.


Garalnd did die, he's talking spiritually, but he cannot do any motives or plans against anyone.


Thats the question i'm asking you, "When has Kuja ever teleported someone against their will"? Or even teleport a person moving?


Sephiroth didn't see them as a threat, he carried on with his business and just left Jenova to fight them, and it was the entire party there.

Prison Cells? At the beginning of the game? He probably didn't even know they were there.


But the thing is, NOTHING suggests he can do this instantly, for all we know it could have taken him awhile to prepare.

If it was actually SHOWN that he can do it on a whim, and instantly then you would have a point. If we go by that logic, then Sephiroth goes intangeable and invisible before killing Kuja, because he's done it before.

Terryc250
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and btw, trance zidane is actually stronger than trance kuja, for those of you were paying attention to the story.
Trance Kuja still has more power output then Zidane. Because he has that Ultima spell

Wil7
Terryc250, you seem to know more about all these guys than everybody.

How many people is Sephiroth stronger than, and what are the other 3's abilities.

Terryc250
In terms of feats Zidane hasn't shown anything special to be even on Clouds level, Kuja ruined the surface of a planet, but keep in mind that Sephiroth has stopped an attack that was capable of destroying everything on the planet(Holy) with sheer willpower.

In terms of abilities Sephiroth has the power of the negative lifestream and the lifestream is the source of magic,power,energy,life, on the planet, he has TK that can stop a power capable of destroying everything on the planet, a list of versatile abilities, strength and speeds far greater then anything Kuja has shown.

Dark-Jaxx
The idea that Sephiroth can stop Ultima is laughable at best.

Terryc250
How so?

Dark-Jaxx
Since, you know, Sephiroth has never stopped an actual attack comparable in use to Ultima, Holy is quite different, it is an ethereal wave of Mako(or whatever) that destroys evil on the planet.

Ultima is a bunch of DBZ-style anime blasts.

Although the idea that a featless wonder like Zidane could even beat Tifa is worth a lol.

Terryc250
Huh? Holy has nothing to do with mako... Holy is a spell that summons that energy that can destroy everything it rules evil, which includes weapons, meteor, shinra, bugenhagen states even themselves, everything could be put to an end depending on what Holy judges

Also the Ultima that Kuja blasted on Terra wasn't exactly fast, he had to charge up, and take shot after shot, Sephiroth stopped the single attack Holy in one go.

Dark-Jaxx
Kay, I got the Mako part wrong(I don't know "what" it is made of), but the rest was accurate.

It specifically targets evil, and is really pretty much a giant cloud in mass that just destroys t3h evilness.

Terryc250
Which what Bugenhagen applied could mean everything on the planet, everything could be gone, its capable of doing the same thing to Terra as what Ultima did. Wrecking all the buildings and the surface of the planet

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Terryc250
What can Trance Kuja do to AC Sephiroth? Sephiroth has more abilities and is far faster and can basically stop anything Kuja can do to him.

can he stop ultima which easily detroyed an entire planet with an advanced civilisation{obliterated an entire planet}, as well as destroyed the crystal from which creation itself emenated? neither bahamut's attack{which is much much MUCH bigger than any bahamut attack in ff-7 or advent children} nor even the attack of the INVINCIBLE{which killed alenxander and destroyed the entire kingdom of alexandria as well as garnet's original homeworld} cud kill HUMAN kuja. his durability along with all his other stats are TITANICALLY enhanced in trance form. tell me a SINGLE thing any1 in ff-7 can do to even remotely harm trance kuja. heck, kuja even teleported team zidane from BEYOND creation itself back to the real world, as well as teleporting himself between planetss. heck he opened the gate to memoria.

simply, those two are not in the same league. no matter how much u like sephiroth.

leonheartmm
and AGAIN, ultima destroyed all of terra, not just the surface, terra stops existing as a planet after that{the surface was also an inferno in the cutscene}, it can no longer be reached by even the dimensional gate as there is NUTHING there, the only remnant of terra is the ultima weapon, which is found at the place in the ocean where terra portal used to be, the whol planet, btw, is als crystalline. the entire red life force of the PLANET terra disappears after that, which was facilitating the mist process by garland on the main planet, gaia, before. terra also stops appearing as the red planet in the coming cutscenes when gaia is shown from space, but most importantly, the entirety of terra as a planet and its events can now be seen in memoria, and memoria only contains thigns which are PASSED, as in destroyed/lost to time. that wudnt be possible if terra still existed.

Terryc250
Originally posted by leonheartmm
can he stop ultima which easily detroyed an entire planet with an advanced civilisation{obliterated an entire planet}, as well as destroyed the crystal from which creation itself emenated? neither bahamut's attack{which is much much MUCH bigger than any bahamut attack in ff-7 or advent children} nor even the attack of the INVINCIBLE{which killed alenxander and destroyed the entire kingdom of alexandria as well as garnet's original homeworld} cud kill HUMAN kuja. his durability along with all his other stats are TITANICALLY enhanced in trance form. tell me a SINGLE thing any1 in ff-7 can do to even remotely harm trance kuja. heck, kuja even teleported team zidane from BEYOND creation itself back to the real world, as well as teleporting himself between planetss. heck he opened the gate to memoria.

simply, those two are not in the same league. no matter how much u like sephiroth.

Yes, because he would stop it before it gets to that level of world wrecking, it wasn't fast he charge shot after shot, Sephiroth stopped the single attack of Holy in one go, advance civilization does not mean that everything is more durable, a PSP slim is not more durable then a PSP fat lol, an Iphone is not more durable then those old big cellphones.

Thats overhyped, Bahamuts attack weren't direct hits, half of them missed and one of them landed in front of him not directly hitting him, and he escaped from the aftermath of the burning. Cloud took an actual direct hit and went right through a blast without a scratch on him, yet Sephiroth can casually cut him with his sword, Sephiroth will beable to cut Kuja.

Terryc250
Originally posted by leonheartmm
and AGAIN, ultima destroyed all of terra, not just the surface, terra stops existing as a planet after that{the surface was also an inferno in the cutscene}, it can no longer be reached by even the dimensional gate as there is NUTHING there, the only remnant of terra is the ultima weapon, which is found at the place in the ocean where terra portal used to be, the whol planet, btw, is als crystalline. the entire red life force of the PLANET terra disappears after that, which was facilitating the mist process by garland on the main planet, gaia, before. terra also stops appearing as the red planet in the coming cutscenes when gaia is shown from space, but most importantly, the entirety of terra as a planet and its events can now be seen in memoria, and memoria only contains thigns which are PASSED, as in destroyed/lost to time. that wudnt be possible if terra still existed.

Could be because the portal is destroyed with everything else on the surface of Terra?

Has terra ever been shown in from space in a cutscene? Could be the angle, etc,

Memoria is created from MEMORIES, not jsut everything that is destroyed

Garland's Memory:
Memoria... A place of memories.
Zidane:
Memories...?
Garland's Memory:
Yes, your memories brought forth this place...

leonheartmm
sephiroth can not stop ultima in his dream, ultima is far beyond anything seen in ff-7 , FACT.

advance civilisation means advance architecture though. ur examples dont apply here. and what do bahamut's attacks mean{which destroyed the entire white dragon army and were gonna destroy alexandira} when compared to the attack of the invincible which human kuja clearly DID take and survive???{remember the one that killed alexander}.

again, sephiroth can not DREAM to cut kuja terry. stop debating because u like sephiroth and start looking at feats.

leonheartmm
Originally posted by Terryc250
Could be because the portal is destroyed with everything else on the surface of Terra?

Has terra ever been shown in from space in a cutscene? Could be the angle, etc,

Memoria is created from MEMORIES, not jsut everything that is destroyed

Garland's Memory:
Memoria... A place of memories.
Zidane:
Memories...?
Garland's Memory:
Yes, your memories brought forth this place...

the portal isnt PHYSICAL. the entire reality that was terra , was destroyed so there is no portal to take u anywhere, the ultima weapon is the remnant from the blue crystal planet.

yes it has, as the red planet against gaia, the blue planet, specially when the colours were changing due to the soul mist. its also clearly shown in that place where u cant use magic and first fight ark.

did you forget the part where team zidane says that no1 can REMEMBER the places being actually their OWN memories, which is explained by it being the memories of the UNIVERSE. nuthign from the present exists in memoria, only things from the past do and terra is from the past at that point. memoria was a way to go further and further into the past by the memories of the universe which is WHY at the end, u end up at the crystal of creation, the birth of the universe{or did u think zidane and team actually had MEMORIES of the creation event?}
kuja wins.

Dark-Jaxx
Originally posted by Terryc250
Which what Bugenhagen applied could mean everything on the planet, everything could be gone, its capable of doing the same thing to Terra as what Ultima did. Wrecking all the buildings and the surface of the planet Bugenhagen is a fallible character.

And Ultima destroyed all of Terra.

Terryc250
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the portal isnt PHYSICAL. the entire reality that was terra , was destroyed so there is no portal to take u anywhere, the ultima weapon is the remnant from the blue crystal planet.

yes it has, as the red planet against gaia, the blue planet, specially when the colours were changing due to the soul mist. its also clearly shown in that place where u cant use magic and first fight ark.

did you forget the part where team zidane says that no1 can REMEMBER the places being actually their OWN memories, which is explained by it being the memories of the UNIVERSE. nuthign from the present exists in memoria, only things from the past do and terra is from the past at that point. memoria was a way to go further and further into the past by the memories of the universe which is WHY at the end, u end up at the crystal of creation, the birth of the universe{or did u think zidane and team actually had MEMORIES of the creation event?}
kuja wins.
Well obviously it can be destroyed physically somehow then, either way, surface being destroyed physically, or planet blowing up physically, in theory should harm a non-phsyical thing.

Yeah because they are memories from all life, but the bottom line is, they are just memories, and their is no real evidence that it only shows things that are completely annihilated into nothingness. If its dead then it can be a memory, a dead destroyed planet floating in space can still have memories of when it was full of life.


Not really, Ultima is on the same scale as Holy, Sephiroth stopped Holy in one single go, Kuja had to charge and go shot after shot, before it was planet wrecking, Sephiroth would stop Kuja before that.

Again he didn't take direct hits. You're talking like he took the direct hits and stayed for the aftermath and survived it all, when all he did was make it through the explosions and escaped. It doesn't mean that his skin is durable enough to withstand Sephiroths sword.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
... Deal with what? That Kuja can get to a crystal? Cool, i don't care.
Deal with the fact Kuja can create dimensions and teleport. Sephiroth couldn't do it if he tried.



A) Sephiroth stopped ONE attack of great power. Kuja can fire ATLEAST four in one go. Thats displayed in the cutscene.

B) Sephiroth stopped holy while it was in a bottleneck. Once it rose up it spread across the planet from the northern crater, could Sephiroth stop it then?

If yes, then you just proved Bugenhagen a lying noob of a guru.



Don't mean he has full access to it, if he did then Cloud has more power then the entire lifestream since he overcame Sephiroths power. PIS or not, it happened.

He had J-cells in him, I do believe thats why. Either way, Sephiroth Couldn't completely take over Cloud when he tried to make Cloud kill Aerith.

Sephiroth restored himself, but does that help him in this fight? No?
Thats right. The only reason to bring this up is if you are accepting that he will need it.

Okay, Destroying the source of all life>taking over the source of a planet.
Kuja took control of Bahamut, and took over a massive barrier and forced it to come down.



Just like we are talking about Kuja AFTER he gains his trance powers.




Okay, how many times has Sephiroth died at the hands of Cloud?

Now.

How many times has Kuja died at the hands of Zidane? None? K.

Seeing a difference yet? *Waits for Terry to make an excuse on Sephiroths behalf*


So Yuffie has had someone try and destroy her soul(Garland) and survive? No? K.

Yuffie can trance and use attacks like Grandlethal? No? K.



Sorry, you can't prove that Sephiroth can defend against being teleported.
Sorry, you can't prove Sephiroth can defend against four ultimas, which Kuja can do in one go.
Hell, Kuja could open a dimension AROUND sephiroth and close it with Sephiroth trapped in side. Sephiroth has a defense against that? No? K.




Yes, that REALLY makes the MEMORY different somehow. Kuja is STATED to be able to make a memory real, no limitation has been imposed on this ability.


Anyone who had played AND understood FFIX would know the answer to this. Kuja believes himself superior to everyone and everything. Why would he want another of himself?

On a more realistic note, how does choosing not to create himself from Zidanes memory PROVE he can't do it instantly? It don't? K.



Because he HATES Zidane? Thats the same as saying Sephiroth can't kill humans easily because he didn't kill Cloud straight away.


My point is based on his level of durability.
Bahamut's Megaflare.
Invincible's weapon. (The most powerful weapon in the game)
The beating he let Zidane give him.
The destruction of Terra. (He is totally unharmed)
Point blank Ultima.
1000foot fall.



No, it would be because Kuja is more durable then you can admit.
Even IF Zidane needed to help Kuja, it don't change the fact that Kuja>Sephiroth.


As far as his body is concerned, yes.


Opinion. Not Fact.



Like you said before, it took Sephiroth 5 years to come back.
Besides, I have already proven that Kuja is superior to Garland in terms of will power.



He teleported Zidane and his friends while they was in another dimension.....While he was close to death.

They weren't expecting it.
They didn't ask for it.
Since they didn't have a clue about it, it would be a natural response to resist it.



My point is that Sephiroth could of killed them easily before the final battle.
You can't use the fact Kuja didn't kill them before his final battle as an excuse he can't do something.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by Terryc250
advance civilization does not mean that everything is more durable, a PSP slim is not more durable then a PSP fat lol, an Iphone is not more durable then those old big cellphones.

A 21th century home ain't more durable then a 14th century home? Right.



Three are on target. One lands JUST in front of him. The other two are direct hits.

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6470/vlcsnap243550sy8.jpg



Cloud survived by going through it in midair WITH EVERYONE ELSES HELP. Kuja survives an explosion of 2-3 (depending on how you see it) megaflares. Its SO completely different that im laughing.

leonheartmm
the only reason kuja died was because garland had designed him to genetically die at age 16. he survived the onslaught led on him by team zidane.

if the location is gone, the portal to the location also goes away, just accept it, terra was totally obliterated. they are memories fromt the entire universe and it only remember what doesnt exist anymore, name me a single thing in memoria which still existed in the game.

actually no. holy is on the same scale as holy. doomsday is on a bigger scale than holy, madeen and ark are both on bigger scales than holy. ultima is a on a totally different scale. holy cudnt compare in the least. and again, HUMAN kuja survived a POINT BLANK firing from the invincible, which destroyed the kingdom of alexandria{and garnet's home world}, and killed the eidolon alexander{who had just killed bahamut}. his durability is not up for questionaing. TRANCE kuja is stronger than kuja by orders of MAGNITUDE. masamune isnt gonna do crap to him.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by leonheartmm
the only reason kuja died was because garland had designed him to genetically die at age 16. he survived the onslaught led on him by team zidane.

Ummm... Kuja is 24 years old.

Garland: "I constructed the Genomes to be vessels for the souls of Terra when they awaken. But 24 yours years ago, I gave life to a Genome that was very much like you. His will was too strong to make him into a proper vessel, and I even considered discarding him. But then I thought that I should put his strength to use. I sent that Genome as my servant, to disrupt the cycle of souls on Gaia. The one I sent to Gaia might also be called your brother... And his name is Kuja."



Doomsday (FFIX)
8ipRqeP3h-s

Ark (FFIX)
2wOMBB_umMA

Madeen (FFIX)
Z6ItMgFyFBg

All three are gameplay moves, like supernova.
Only Holy and Ultima are relevant when it comes to comparisons.



Kuja ain't human, he's a genome.
The invincible destroyed Garnet's home village, not world.



I would argue that Sephiroth's blade beam style attacks would be useless.

His psychical sword would be able to injure Kuja, if he was caught off-guard.

Dark-Jaxx
Actually, Leon was referring to Garnet's original home world, the one her mother took her from on a little rowboat, and Invincible indeed did destroy that.

UltimaKuja
I believe Garnat came from Mari-Safi, thats the village Garland destroyed with the invincible.

Mari-Safi is located on Gaia, and is where you first encounter Amarant.

Dark-Jaxx
Hm. You may be right. God knows it has been years since I played FFIX.

UltimaKuja
Yeah, I am.

Garland: "In his bid to defy me, Kuja tried to acquire Alexander... An incident, 10 years ago, started everything... I feared Gaia's eidolons more than anything... However, I decided to deal with them before they became a major problem... Zidane, what you just saw was from your memory, and not Garnet's."

Zidane: "What? I don't remember ever being in a storm at sea!"

Just what planet did you think she was from anyway? o.o

4RX
Seymour's hairstyle solos.

leonheartmm
well. sorry i mixed up kuja and zidane, after age 16 zidane wud develop stronger powers than kuja. however, it is a FACT that kuja WAS indeed dying because of the genes put inside him by garland, that is why he was going to TAKE existance with him. thats all i was trying to say, the reason he DIES in the end inside the lifa tree with zidane is not because of damage sustained, but because of his genes. just making an argument again "i dont care, kuja died while sephiroth lived"

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by leonheartmm
after age 16 zidane wud develop stronger powers than kuja.
Thats how it was going to go, correct.
However, Trance Kuja's power is way above any power Zidane was going to get.


I was under the impression that one of two things would happen;

A) A delayed spell close to what Garland used on Zidane, on Terra, would be activated.
B) He would die simply because it was the end of his lifespan, which would be shorter then a humans.

Its open for debate, but I don't think Garland used biogenics.



Thats a conversation stopper, if ever I heard one.

leonheartmm
erm no. normal zidane would surpass normal kuja. similarly, trance zidane{after age 16} wud surpass trance kuja{infact, trance zidane has the strongest spells/power in the entire game, even though its gameplay, but still}. my point, zidane is the potential superior in both.

garland used biogenics to create both of them, the life process of terran clones has never shown to have much to do with SPELLS since terra is a society based almost exclusively in science/arcane science.

and seymore's hairstyles pales in comparison to kuja's orange/red duck feather hair.

Pyron_Knight
This is only theoretical. Kuja's trance for starters is not a normal one. It's augmented and "permanent" thanks to other souls.

UltimaKuja
Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm no. normal zidane would surpass normal kuja. similarly, trance zidane{after age 16} wud surpass trance kuja

Zero basis for claiming this.
It WAS Garlands plan for things to proceed this way, yes. He even says so.
BUT.

Garland never took into account two things;

A) Zidane growing up on Gaia.
B) Kuja gaining the power to Trance.

I firmly believe the only reason normal Zidane could potentially surpass normal Kuja is because he can trance.
Remember, when Garlands says how Zidane will surpass Kuja, he don't know Kuja will ever be able to trance.



I read this and see "Grandlethal>Ultima".
Excuse me while I lol so loud the neighbors complain.



Garland has already used a spell before to try and take Zidane soul. To state that Garland would use an alternate way with Kuja is not very logical.

Kuja: "I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own! Who cares if she lives?"

It don't sound like Kuja is very scared of some kind of virus, does he?

TBH if you go from this, it don't look like Kuja had much to worry about anyway. If Zidane can get past Garlands spell, Kuja probably could to.




I'll agree with you on that one.

leonheartmm
a. zidane growing up on gaia has nuthing to do with his inherent powers which wud come into play after 16.

b. zidane also has the power of trance, trance basically enhances your character based on your characteristics, kuja's trance was so powerful because HE was so powerful

and there is a serious problem with your theory. zidan cud trance BEFORE he met kuja{and as you say, garland never meant for trance to be a power source so him saying that zidane wud surpass kuja had nuthing to do with zidane's TRANCE abilities} and yet kuja still proved more powerful.

grand lethal has never been seen outside gameplay, so you cant compare like that {even seeing just how destructive some of garnet/sarah's summons can be. and as far as ingame goes, it does do more damage than ultima. and i meant more like NORMAL moves, the main team cud do, not ultima that trance kuja can do.

r u referring to what he did on terra when zidane lost his will to fight?{its been a while} well, zidane had friends, and dagger. also note that TERRA'S plan is the purpose of kuja to hasten the process of mist and turning souls to the red planet. and after it was done, at a certain age, dying as zidane reached age 16. his soul wont be his own because it wud turn into mist. there isnt really anything that i know of suggesting that GARLAND would take it with a spell. more importantly, garland AND terra are both DEAD, after kuja trances and yet he STILL says that he is soon going to die{as told to him by garland's ghost} as zidane takes his rightful place as his stronger replacement, which is WHY, running out of time, he goes to memoria and he crystal of creation to destroy all existance as "if he cant live than nuthing can live". its sumthing INHERENT inside his body which wud kill him, not a soul swap or a spell.

UltimaKuja
Since nothing more "on topic" is going on here, I'll just continue.


Originally posted by leonheartmm
b. zidane also has the power of trance, trance basically enhances your character based on your characteristics, kuja's trance was so powerful because HE was so powerful

Garland stated Zidane would become more powerful then Kuja BEFORE Kuja could trance.
Garland knew Zidane could and Kuja couldn't, thats when he stated Zidane will be stronger. After Kuja Trances its a WHOLE different ball game.

Garland is comparing Zidane(Who can trance) With Kuja(Who currently can't). How the hell could Garland know who's more powerful after Kuja tranced? He can't? Exactly.
Show me Garland saying "Zidane>Kuja" AFTER Kuja tranced and then we'll see.


Allow me to rephrase: Please demonstrate Zidane doing something more powerful then everyone else.



Yes, I am.
Garland did his soul shattering/suppressing spell on Zidane. Yes, with his friends help he overcame it and kept his soul.

Its logical to assume that Garland was going to use the same strategy on Kuja, as there is no other way shown. It's also logical that Kuja, who at this point is stronger then anyone, could do the same and overcome it.


Your basis for claiming that it would turn into mist?

He would have to die beforehand.
I'm trying to show you how unlikely that really was.


Well there's what Garland tried to do to Zidane. Thats the only instance of Garland doing something to someones soul, since no other way is shown its logical to assume thats his only way.


Garland only states that Kuja is mortal, meaning he will die of old age like everyone else. Meaning he WILL age.

If Kuja was mortal when Garland was alive, then i'm pretty sure he will remain one after Garland died.

Maybe you missed it, but after Garland revealed Kuja's end was a reality..... well, he kinda lost his objective thinking. He thought he was immortal and never going to die, then its revealed he's mortal and will die. Weather it be in 1 day or 10 years time, it meant the same to Kuja.

Lets look at it from Kuja's point of view.
You think your immortal and never going to die.
You have plans of having a nice big castle and ruling over Terra and Gaia FOREVER.

Then you realise you won't live past the 100 year mark.
Forever shrunk down to less then 100 years. I would think "Im gonna die soon" myself.

From a certain point of view, anyone who is alive is slowly dying all the time.

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