Dr. Doom vs Thanos

Harbinger

Credit to OneDumbGo for the entire post:

Doom has become god-like in less than a month in the storyline, Fantastic Four: The World's Greatest Comic Magazine. The links in the Dr. Doom respect thread are broken for this particular adventure of his. Back in 2001, Marvel decided to pay homage to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and create a story where Doom and the FF and really, all of Marvel Earth got involved. Over two dozen writers and artists collaborated to produce the 12-issue miniseries. It's canon, and according to the authors and editors in the letter columns, takes place right before Fantastic Four #100:

Doom knew about Cap's first battle with the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube and retrieves it via Time Platform:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest4.jpg

He then goes on to steal the Sacred Helix of Randac which powers the Terrigen Crystals from Attilan:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest5.jpg

Picking up information from Human Torch, he confronts the Watcher and steals his Ultimate Machine, which is a repository of the Watchers' entire accumulated knowledge:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest6.jpg

He then travels to the Negative Zone to steal Annihilus' Cosmic Control Rod:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...dsGreatest9.jpg

He combines the Cosmic Control Rod, the Cosmic Cube and his Power Cosmic Siphon Harness and confronts Galactus and takes his power by force:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...sGreatest10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube06.jpg

Here, Reed explains that Doom used the Sacred Helix of Randac to alter himself to withstand the overwhelming effects of using the Ultimate Machine. The Leader's mind had been completely overwhelmed when he tried to access it. Using the knowledge gained from it, he was able to figure out that the Cosmic Control Rod + Cosmic Cube + Power Cosmic Siphon Harness would be enough to drain Galactus of his power. And Doom finally starts the fighting:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...sGreatest11.jpg

The American military, SHIELD, Avengers, X-Men, Thor, Asgard and Odin, Namor and Atlantis:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube08.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube09.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube11.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube12.jpg

Where's Reed during all this? Using Doom's own invention, an ionic inanimate matter converter, powered by the Silver Surfer, Reed summons classic Marvel monsters to fight Doom. Black Bolt and the Inhumans join the fight as well:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...sGreatest12.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube14.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube15.jpg

That blasted Reed Richards takes advantage of Doom's distraction with his newfound hunger and his arrogance to retrieve the Cosmic Cube and undo his transformation:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube16.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/...osmicCube17.jpg

Reed goes on to erase the events from the entire world's memory with the Cosmic Cube. Only Galactus, Uatu and Reed remember what happened. Not bad for a few week's work. The above scans don't chronicle even a third of the things Doom did during the entire mini-series, but they ought to convey the spirit of the adventure. The epic dialogue from the last five scans comes from Stan Lee himself who penned the 12th issue.

Just something to think about, IMO.

beast1234

dr doom intelligence level is extraordinary genius(Genius in multiple fields) thanos intellignece level is superhuman making him a genius in every other intellectual fields and giving him intellectual prowess beyond the huaman capabilities giving him logic,reason,planning,creativity and everyother intellectual abilities on a superhuman.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Futuristic by like a year or two. We still cant give him the feat.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
We still cant give him the feat. Yes, we can. Since the "future" version was the present-day version of 616 Dr. Doom as seen in Fantastic Four #288. Originally, the Dr. Doom was some future Doom from some unspecified future timeline. But Secret Wars II Beyonder retconned that by placing the then-present and 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. Mr. Master and I discussed this here. You can make your own opinion:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=492581&pagenumber=3

Lord S

Thanos is a cosmic version of Doom.

Thanos wins.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes, we can. Since the "future" version was the present-day version of 616 Dr. Doom as seen in Fantastic Four #288. Originally, the Dr. Doom was some future Doom from some unspecified future timeline. But Secret Wars II Beyonder retconned that by placing the then-present and 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. Mr. Master and I discussed this here. You can make your own opinion:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=492581&pagenumber=3 Interesting. Ill look into this further. Who do you give the nod in this matchup anwyays?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Interesting. Ill look into this further. Who do you give the nod in this matchup anwyays? Thanos 7/10. Grudgingly.

I understand Thanos' superiority in nearly all fields of comparison. But he still doesn't utilize magic or time travel as well as Dr. Doom. And Dr. Doom has also one-upped Thanos in several respects. Not only in terms of greater feats, but in Infinity War for instance, he came closest to defeating Magus with the CCU's, whereas Thanos and company were basically getting screwed by Magus' machinations. Thanos' and Warlock's master plan eventually defeated Magus with the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. But Magus with the Cosmic Containment Units was a different story, and one that Dr. Doom came out the better for. I also fully acknowledge that Magus focused on Thanos, but I don't think that detracts a great deal from Dr. Doom's pimp showing.

Lord S

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos 7/10. Grudgingly.

I understand Thanos' superiority in nearly all fields of comparison. But he still doesn't utilize magic or time travel as well as Dr. Doom. And Dr. Doom has also one-upped Thanos in several respects. Not only in terms of greater feats, but in Infinity War for instance, he came closest to defeating Magus with the CCU's, whereas Thanos and company were basically getting screwed by Magus' machinations. Thanos' and Warlock's master plan eventually defeated Magus with the incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. But Magus with the Cosmic Containment Units was a different story, and one that Dr. Doom came out the better for. I also fully acknowledge that Magus focused on Thanos, but I don't think that detracts a great deal from Dr. Doom's pimp showing. He doesnt have to. Thanos and Doom were both after the same thing in marvel's the end. Doom's plan was flawed and Thanos ha dto spare Doom his fate. He is the better man,but you agree. Doom failed in infinity war. He didnt defeat the Magus. he was close but no cigar. In the secret wars if you want to count it,it proved he couldnt hold that much power in himself.

Thanos and Warlock>Doom and Kang any day of the week.

If Thanos and Doom both had a year to bolster their personal forces and go to war with one another. Doom would be slaughtered.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Lord S
Don't forget Doom had help from Kang. Bah, Dr. Doom probably woulda done better with a Doombot at his side. durfist
Originally posted by quanchi112
He doesnt have to. Thanos and Doom were both after the same thing in marvel's the end. Doom's plan was flawed and Thanos ha dto spare Doom his fate. He is the better man,but you agree. Doom failed in infinity war. He didnt defeat the Magus. he was close but no cigar. In the secret wars if you want to count it,it proved he couldnt hold that much power in himself.

Thanos and Warlock>Doom and Kang any day of the week.

If Thanos and Doom both had a year to bolster their personal forces and go to war with one another. Doom would be slaughtered. Thanos had prep there, whereas Dr. Doom did not. Dr. Doom's plan was not flawed because Akhenaten specifically prepped for Dr. Doom in advance. He just beat him to the punch. Akhenaten did not prep for Thanos. Dr. Doom would hold the Beyonder's power a second time.

If Dr. Doom decided to fight against Thanos on that sort of playing field, of course he would get slaughtered. He wouldn't. He's not that foolish. That's analogous to Iron Man and Namor prepping against each other and Iron Man choosing to war with Namor underwater.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Bah, Dr. Doom probably woulda done better with a Doombot at his side. durfist
Thanos had prep there, whereas Dr. Doom did not. Dr. Doom's plan was not flawed because Akhenaten specifically prepped for Dr. Doom in advance. He just beat him to the punch. Akhenaten did not prep for Thanos. Dr. Doom would hold the Beyonder's power a second time.

If Dr. Doom decided to fight against Thanos on that sort of playing field, of course he would get slaughtered. He wouldn't. He's not that foolish. That's analogous to Iron Man and Namor prepping against each other and Iron Man choosing to war with Namor underwater. No,it really isnt. But Thanos does have the advantage with tech.

Both Doom and Thanos both wanted the same prize here. Thanos succeeded while Doom failed. Doom had a poor plan.Thanos then saved Doom from this fate.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/mute-02-21.jpg

Thanos is just better than Doom. Thats all there is to it.

Mindset

Thanos has more knowledge regarding cosmic things than Doom, that's why he had a better plan.

It pretty much says that.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mindset
Thanos has more knowledge regarding cosmic things than Doom, that's why he had a better plan.

It pretty much says that. Yes,Thanos is better on a bigger scale. Doom is more of a take over the earth kinda guy while Thanos is more a take over the universe kind of guy even though Doom has tried that as well.

Thanos>Doom.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes,Thanos is better on a bigger scale. Doom is more of a take over the earth kinda guy while Thanos is more a take over the universe kind of guy even though Doom has tried that as well.

Thanos>Doom. If you think Dr. Doom would engage Thanos in a battle that plays to his strengths, then you underestimate Doom's intelligence. He has no subconscious urge to defeat himself.

Dr. Doom has humbled Galactus, Thanos has not. Dr. Doom overpowered the Beyonder, a greater foe than any Thanos has ever personally overpowered. Dr. Doom knows magic better than Thanos. Dr. Doom utilizes his time machine better than Thanos. Dr. Doom accomplishes more of his greatest feats on the fly, whereas Thanos always has prepped and been guided by imbued knowledge, i.e. Infinity Well.

When assessing prep in similar storylines where the ultimate nemesis is unaware of their actions: 1) Magus w/ CCU's focusing on Thanos, Dr. Doom + Kang assaulting them; and 2) Akhenaten focusing on Dr. Doom, Thanos + Defenders + Captain Marvel vicariously assaulting Akhenaten; I think Dr. Doom comes out more impressive. In neither scenario was Dr. Doom privy to advance information on either situation. Indeed, in the former, Dr. Doom knew about Magus' CCU's before even Thanos did. Dr. Doom used Kang to assault Magus and come within a heartbeat of gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos sacrificed the Defenders and Captain Marvel to sidestep Akhenaten altogether and go after THOTU.

Your opinion is yours, I have mine. Doom is underrated.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you think Dr. Doom would engage Thanos in a battle that plays to his strengths, then you underestimate Doom's intelligence. He has no subconscious urge to defeat himself.

Dr. Doom has humbled Galactus, Thanos has not. Dr. Doom overpowered the Beyonder, a greater foe than any Thanos has ever personally overpowered. Dr. Doom knows magic better than Thanos. Dr. Doom utilizes his time machine better than Thanos. Dr. Doom accomplishes more of his greatest feats on the fly, whereas Thanos always has prepped and been guided by imbued knowledge, i.e. Infinity Well.

When assessing prep in similar storylines where the ultimate nemesis is unaware of their actions: 1) Magus w/ CCU's focusing on Thanos, Dr. Doom + Kang assaulting them; and 2) Akhenaten focusing on Dr. Doom, Thanos + Defenders + Captain Marvel vicariously assaulting Akhenaten; I think Dr. Doom comes out more impressive. In neither scenario was Dr. Doom privy to advance information on either situation. Indeed, in the former, Dr. Doom knew about Magus' CCU's before even Thanos did. Dr. Doom used Kang to assault Magus and come within a heartbeat of gaining the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos sacrificed the Defenders and Captain Marvel to sidestep Akhenaten altogether and go after THOTU.

Your opinion is yours, I have mine. Doom is underrated. Thanos has saved Galactus' ass from the Hunger. Doom has not. Doom temporarily overpowered the Beyonder and proved he wasnt up to the task. Thanos doesnt give up power because he cant control it. He also overcame his subconscious desire in marvel's the end,so you cant rely on that either as a copout.

Thanos has constructed a time machine of his own. Doom needs magic but that wont get him the victory over Thanos who is more intelligent,more powerful,and he himself also has superior tech.

In both stories the infinity war and marvel's the end the both had one thing in common. Thanos succeeding while Doom failed both times.

Doom may be underrated but Thanos is still his superior and you know it.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

Doom temporarily overpowered the Beyonder
Not even, imo.

Technically yes, but only cause Beyonder manipulated 616 Doom's success.

That shouldn't count imo. smile

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Yes, we can. Since the "future" version was the present-day version of 616 Dr. Doom as seen in Fantastic Four #288. Originally, the Dr. Doom was some future Doom from some unspecified future timeline. But Secret Wars II Beyonder retconned that by placing the then-present and 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. Mr. Master and I discussed this here. You can make your own opinion:
thumb up

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos has saved Galactus' ass from the Hunger. Doom has not. Doom temporarily overpowered the Beyonder and proved he wasnt up to the task. Thanos doesnt give up power because he cant control it. He also overcame his subconscious desire in marvel's the end,so you cant rely on that either as a copout.

Thanos has constructed a time machine of his own. Doom needs magic but that wont get him the victory over Thanos who is more intelligent,more powerful,and he himself also has superior tech.

In both stories the infinity war and marvel's the end the both had one thing in common. Thanos succeeding while Doom failed both times.

Doom may be underrated but Thanos is still his superior and you know it. Defeating Galactus is more impressive than getting fried and humbled by Galactus and then aiding him in countering the threat of the Hunger. Dr. Doom not being able to control the Beyonder's power the first time around, does not change the fact that Thanos has never personally beaten a foe of that power level. Beyonder also had the help of all the Marvel heroes in taking the power back. Thanos' inability to hold onto his power comes from within, not without. His subconscious desires were not overcome in Marvel: The End, because as it is made clear, he was being inexorably guided by TOAA the whole time.

Dr. Doom has more experience with time travel and you know it. Dr. Doom has also built superior tech to Thanos in one very distinct area, the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. He can absorb the Power Cosmic on his own, replicate it, imbue himself and others with it. Thanos could not do that, even with Annihilus' vast resources, as clearly shown in Annihilation. The best he could do after weeks of study was divert Galactus' feeding of power into power cells. Dr. Doom already did that in Secret Wars without any help in several hours time, except he imbued it into himself and punked Galactus personally, rather than have T&A do it for him.

Thanos did not succeed alone in Infinity War. Indeed, he did it with the help of Galactus, Adam Warlock, Mephisto and Earth's heroes. Dr. Doom only had Kang, who he ended up getting rid of anyway. I'm sure that had TOAA picked Dr. Doom to fix the flaw in marvel: The End, Dr. Doom would have succeeded whereas Thanos would have failed. Luck of the draw.

Dr. Doom has also humbled his greatest nemesis, Reed Richards, several times. Thanos has never humbled Adam Warlock.

Dr. Doom is underrated and is clearly superior in enough areas and feats to make this a closer fight than most people would care to think. And you know that as well.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not even, imo.

Technically yes, but only cause Beyonder manipulated 616 Doom's success.

That shouldn't count imo. smile

It's true, Beyonder retconned the original events.

But after giving it some thought ODG,
should we still give it to 616 Doom?

I mean, Beyonder completely manipulated his involvement,
Beyonder literally replaced the original future Doom, with 616 Doom,
and then allowed Secret Wars to play out, that's a cheese win as Street Fighter fanboys say.

The real being that stole much of B's power never really existed, this is why the loop occurred,
imo, it's not fair to give 616 Doom the feat,
because 616 Doom was literally allowed by Beyonder himself to accomplish it. Beyonder tied the loop using 616 Dr. Doom as the ribbon. Beyonder did not guide either of the Dr. Doom's actions in anything. Which is clear because he acknowledges that Doom had bested him. He just sent him back to play out the events that had already occurred.

When Captain America confronted Korvac and Red Skull, Korvac reset history to place Captain America back into himself before he murdered Red Skull. The original murder of Red Skull had allowed the Cosmic Cube's power to flow into Korvac. Captain America changed that and simply hit Red Skull, which resulted in Red Skull killing Korvac. With this roughly analogous situation, where a character sends another character back in time to play out events, your logic suggests that the character doing the sending is responsible for everything that happens thereafter. With Cap/Korvac/Red Skull then, Korvac ended up causing his own destruction. That interpretation makes sense. Because things changed because of Korvac.

But had events played out exactly the same to close a time loop and Cap had killed Red Skull again, you can hardly suggest that Cap never really killed Red Skull and the feat is not really his because that Korvac used a loopy time travel plot device. We can disagree on this, but as it was literally 616 Dr. Doom in Secret Wars without any actual guidance/manipulation on Beyonder's part, I don't see enough circumstance to discount the feat.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Defeating Galactus is more impressive than getting fried and humbled by Galactus and then aiding him in countering the threat of the Hunger. Dr. Doom not being able to control the Beyonder's power the first time around, does not change the fact that Thanos has never personally beaten a foe of that power level. Beyonder also had the help of all the Marvel heroes in taking the power back. Thanos' inability to hold onto his power comes from within, not without. His subconscious desires were not overcome in Marvel: The End, because as it is made clear, he was being inexorably guided by TOAA the whole time.

Dr. Doom has more experience with time travel and you know it. Dr. Doom has also built superior tech to Thanos in one very distinct area, the Power Cosmic Siphon Harness. He can absorb the Power Cosmic on his own, replicate it, imbue himself and others with it. Thanos could not do that, even with Annihilus' vast resources, as clearly shown in Annihilation. The best he could do after weeks of study was divert Galactus' feeding of power into power cells. Dr. Doom already did that in Secret Wars without any help in several hours time, except he imbued it into himself and punked Galactus personally, rather than have T&A do it for him.

Thanos did not succeed alone in Infinity War. Indeed, he did it with the help of Galactus, Adam Warlock, Mephisto and Earth's heroes. Dr. Doom only had Kang, who he ended up getting rid of anyway. I'm sure that had TOAA picked Dr. Doom to fix the flaw in marvel: The End, Dr. Doom would have succeeded whereas Thanos would have failed. Luck of the draw.

Dr. Doom has also humbled his greatest nemesis, Reed Richards, several times. Thanos has never humbled Adam Warlock.

Dr. Doom is underrated and is clearly superior in enough areas and feats to make this a closer fight than most people would care to think. And you know that as well. So you think in a straight up battle that Doom could beat Galactus? Otherwise why bring it up? Im giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one and counting the secret wars feat.

Thanos made his own choices and wasnt forced into anything. He was manipulated because he was needed to heal the marvel u. When did Thanos subconsciously defeat himself in that story arc? he wasnt controlled into doing anything but manipulated and the choice was his and his alone in the end. This was something Doom was obviously not chosen for. Thanos has experience with time as well. Either way it wouldnt grant Doom the victory. You already gave Thanos the win.

I find it funny that you are taking a ff4 nemesis and comparing him to Thanos. Sure,Doom is great and all,but Thanos is on a whole other level.

Doom punked Galactus due to the circumstances of secret wars. Post continued.....

Bouboumaster

Doom = Thanos lite

quanchi112

Galactus easily took away Doom's power cosmic when he tried to flee earth with it,am I right?

Thanos opposed Magus with warlock and the rest. They took on warlock with the ig minus the reality gem which trumps the cosmic cubes Doom took him on with.

No,TOAA obviously chose Thanos because he could do it while Doom couldnt. Best man for the job,it just happened to be Thanos.

Thanos killed Warlock. There were other outside forces all aligned against Thanos when his ghost returned to take Thanos out. Warlock also had nothing to do with Thanos and his loss of the ig. Without Thanos defeating himself,warlock couldnt have done a thing. He knew Thanos well but couldnt defeat him on his own or with all the help he gathered against him.

Thanos can create clones that have been seen to dwarf the pathetic power known as cosmic. One clone almost enginered the destruction of asgard and another involved higher end abstracts in celestial abyss.

This isnt even close imo. Thanos wins.

tkitna

Smart money is on Thanos

Thats where i'd place my bet

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you think in a straight up battle that Doom could beat Galactus? Otherwise why bring it up? Im giving you the benefit of the doubt on this one and counting the secret wars feat.

Thanos made his own choices and wasnt forced into anything. He was manipulated because he was needed to heal the marvel u. When did Thanos subconsciously defeat himself in that story arc? he wasnt controlled into doing anything but manipulated and the choice was his and his alone in the end. This was something Doom was obviously not chosen for. Thanos has experience with time as well. Either way it wouldnt grant Doom the victory. You already gave Thanos the win.

I find it funny that you are taking a ff4 nemesis and comparing him to Thanos. Sure,Doom is great and all,but Thanos is on a whole other level.

Doom punked Galactus due to the circumstances of secret wars. Post continued..... Don't put words into my mouth. Doom has humbled Galactus, twice. Once by surprise, the other with prep. Thanos never did so. Thanos got b1tchslapped and deferred to T&A to do the job. Doom also managed to unlock the secrets to utilizing the Power Cosmic from his heralds and Galactus himself, something Thanos failed to do. There is nothing else in those statements other than that.

You're right that Thanos made his choice in the conclusion. But everything leading up to that choice was the TOAA inexorably guiding him to that personal choice.

I did not compare Reed Richards to Thanos. But if I am not mistaken, Reed Richards has saved the universe as nearly often as Adam Warlock has. Dr. Doom may not play in the same yard as Thanos does, but relatively speaking, he does better against his personal and eternal nemesis. Simple as that. And when Dr. Doom does play on a cosmic scale, he is arguably just as impressive.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Galactus easily took away Doom's power cosmic when he tried to flee earth with it,am I right?

Thanos opposed Magus with warlock and the rest. They took on warlock with the ig minus the reality gem which trumps the cosmic cubes Doom took him on with.

No,TOAA obviously chose Thanos because he could do it while Doom couldnt. Best man for the job,it just happened to be Thanos.

Thanos killed Warlock. There were other outside forces all aligned against Thanos when his ghost returned to take Thanos out. Warlock also had nothing to do with Thanos and his loss of the ig. Without Thanos defeating himself,warlock couldnt have done a thing. He knew Thanos well but couldnt defeat him on his own or with all the help he gathered against him.

Thanos can create clones that have been seen to dwarf the pathetic power known as cosmic. One clone almost enginered the destruction of asgard and another involved higher end abstracts in celestial abyss.

This isnt even close imo. Thanos wins. Dr. Doom flew into the barrier that kept Silver Surfer from escaping Earth.

Thanos/Mephisto/Galactus/Warlock/heroes vs Magus w/ incomplete IG is more impressive than Doom/Kang vs Magus w/ CCU's? Your opinion.

TOAA choosing Thanos because he was better suited is speculation.

I never said Warlock constantly defeats Thanos, I'm saying Thanos has never overcome or humbled Warlock.

Doom has stolen power greater than the Power Cosmic.

If Thanos outclassed Dr. Doom in every area, you'd be right that it isn't close. But he doesn't. You can continue to underrate Dr. Doom and ignore instances where Dr. Doom is clearly Thanos' superior. You are entitled to your opinion.

KuRuPT Thanosi

One question Dumb..... How can you say he's never overcome or humbled Warlock when he killed him? I would say that is overcoming and humbling all wrapped up in one wouldn't you?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
One question Dumb..... How can you say he's never overcome or humbled Warlock when he killed him? I would say that is overcoming and humbling all wrapped up in one wouldn't you? Hmmm. I was under the impression that was part of Warlock's ultimate plan. If it wasn't, then I'll have to reconsider. As it stands though, Thanos may have won a battle, but Warlock did win that particular war, correct? When I mean that Doom has humbled Reed, I don't mean where halfway through a storyline, Doom gets the better of Reed and then Reed pulls some shenanigans from certain defeat to ultimately put Doom back into his place. I'm saying that Doom has completely and utterly humbled Reed, no question.

If you or anybody could refresh me on the particulars of Thanos/Warlock, by all means. I've been mistaken before.

TheBadguy

You make this thread with just about anybody else against Doom and I'd back Doom. I can't in this one, Doom is Thanos without the superhuman parts, he can't beat Thanos. Thanos is just made superior.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder tied the loop using 616 Dr. Doom as the ribbon. Beyonder did not guide either of the Dr. Doom's actions in anything. Which is clear because he acknowledges that Doom had bested him. He just sent him back to play out the events that had already occurred.

When Captain America confronted Korvac and Red Skull, Korvac reset history to place Captain America back into himself before he murdered Red Skull. The original murder of Red Skull had allowed the Cosmic Cube's power to flow into Korvac. Captain America changed that and simply hit Red Skull, which resulted in Red Skull killing Korvac. With this roughly analogous situation, where a character sends another character back in time to play out events, your logic suggests that the character doing the sending is responsible for everything that happens thereafter. With Cap/Korvac/Red Skull then, Korvac ended up causing his own destruction. That interpretation makes sense. Because things changed because of Korvac.

But had events played out exactly the same to close a time loop and Cap had killed Red Skull again, you can hardly suggest that Cap never really killed Red Skull and the feat is not really his because that Korvac used a loopy time travel plot device.
Technically it was the non-existent future Doom that "bested" him.

616 Doom is only getting the credit here cause Beyonder manipulated his involvement.

So imo, yea, I'm not giving 616 Doom that feat.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

We can disagree on this,
but as it was literally 616 Dr. Doom in Secret Wars
without any actual guidance/manipulation on Beyonder's part
That's not exactly true friend.

It became 616 Doom solely because of the Beyonder's manipulation.

Beyonder literally placed 616 Doom, in the future Doom's place,
so without a doubt, 616 Doom would've had no connection to the feat otherwise.

Originally posted by Mr Master

The Dr Doom that was blinked onto Beyonder's battleworld was not 616 Doom:

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/6926/b1qw4.th.jpg

While the mind/spirit of present day 616 Doom of 1984
was back on Earth.

In fact, up until that point in #288,

616 Doom had never met or seen the Beyonder:

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8337/beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.th.jpg
You know this good friend.

Here is Doom himself, recounting the Event:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/743384_beondersenddoomtopastvw5.jpg

It was Beyonder who sent him back to Secret Wars,
it was then ... that 616 Doom became the cat who stole his power,
a feat that belonged to and was already played out by someone else. erm

We must admit, this feat (concerning 616 Doom's involvement)
is being manipulated by the Beyonder.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Don't put words into my mouth. Doom has humbled Galactus, twice. Once by surprise, the other with prep. Thanos never did so. Thanos got b1tchslapped and deferred to T&A to do the job. Doom also managed to unlock the secrets to utilizing the Power Cosmic from his heralds and Galactus himself, something Thanos failed to do. There is nothing else in those statements other than that.

You're right that Thanos made his choice in the conclusion. But everything leading up to that choice was the TOAA inexorably guiding him to that personal choice.

I did not compare Reed Richards to Thanos. But if I am not mistaken, Reed Richards has saved the universe as nearly often as Adam Warlock has. Dr. Doom may not play in the same yard as Thanos does, but relatively speaking, he does better against his personal and eternal nemesis. Simple as that. And when Dr. Doom does play on a cosmic scale, he is arguably just as impressive. I am not familiar with the second time that Doom has humbled Galactus. When was this?

When did Thanos get bitchslapped in annihilation by Galactus? If I recall correctly he didnt take him on directly. Thanos sent someone else to do his dirty work for him. Brilliant. Thanos also saved Galactus the only time he directly engaged him with a blast to get his attention. Thanos wasnt there to punk Galactus but instead was there to try and avoid the Hunger's entry in our verse. Galactus refused to listen and Thanos cleaned up his mess. When Thanos has wanted Galactus,he had him captured in annihilation. Fact.

Ok and? When has Doom ever held on to such power without having to lose it anyways? Thanos survived that transformation due to his willpower and his prior experience with awesome power.

When has Warlock got the better of him alone? If Im not mistaken Warlock always had more allies when he faced off against Thanos. Thanos also helped him defeat his future self the Magus the first time around.

Thanos and warlock in terms of prep are on a whole other level than reed and doom.

Aster Phoenix

Originally posted by geshien
Both get two days prep.

Who wins?

Thanos wins again.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Dr. Doom flew into the barrier that kept Silver Surfer from escaping Earth.

Thanos/Mephisto/Galactus/Warlock/heroes vs Magus w/ incomplete IG is more impressive than Doom/Kang vs Magus w/ CCU's? Your opinion.

TOAA choosing Thanos because he was better suited is speculation.

I never said Warlock constantly defeats Thanos, I'm saying Thanos has never overcome or humbled Warlock.

Doom has stolen power greater than the Power Cosmic.

If Thanos outclassed Dr. Doom in every area, you'd be right that it isn't close. But he doesn't. You can continue to underrate Dr. Doom and ignore instances where Dr. Doom is clearly Thanos' superior. You are entitled to your opinion. Yeah flew right smack dab into it. Wasnt smart enough to figure a way around it.

Magus was out for the ig not out for the cosmic cubes. Much more impressive.

How is it? Both were actively seeking it. You are telling me the TOAA might choose the worse of the two for the job? Really?

Thanos has stolen and kept greater power than Doom imo. The bad guy always has to lose it at some point.

I dont think its close. They operate in two totally different leagues. Theres earth threats and then there are cosmic threats. Doom is very good but he just isnt on Thanos' level. Thanos succeeds where Doom fails.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
Technically it was the non-existent future Doom that "bested" him.

616 Doom is only getting the credit here cause Beyonder manipulated his involvement.

So imo, yea, I'm not giving 616 Doom that feat.

That's not exactly true friend.

It became 616 Doom solely because of the Beyonder's manipulation.

Beyonder literally placed 616 Doom, in the future Doom's place,
so without a doubt, 616 Doom would've had no connection to the feat otherwise.

You know this good friend.

Here is Doom himself, recounting the Event:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/743384_beondersenddoomtopastvw5.jpg

It was Beyonder who sent him back to Secret Wars,
it was then ... that 616 Doom became the cat who stole his power,
a feat that belonged to and was already played out by someone else. erm

We must admit, this feat (concerning 616 Doom's involvement)
is being manipulated by the Beyonder. You're talking past me. Which is fine. As long as you understand, that your term "manipulate" denotes a certain context, which is untrue concerning the details. Beyonder "manipulated" events so that 616 Doom performed them. He did not manipulate either Doom into acting a certain way. That is indisputable. Therefore, Doom still performed that feat. As such, first it was future Doom who performed them. Then it was 616 Doom that performed them. There was no influence over 616 Doom's mind or over how the events played out. It's your opinion, keep it. It borders on semantics for me and is not a clear enough distinction to discount the feat when in actuality and canon history, 616 Doom was there adn did everything in Secret Wars free from an outside influence that affected the way he would act or others acted. In the end, Beyonder himself admitted that Doom bested him. beyonder was pretty much forced to clsoe the time loop. Beyonder did not give 616 Doom certain history or feats out of the goodness of his heart or for entertainment. And the way you justify use of the term "manipulate" may well be arguable, but the way you interpret the term "manipulate" is incorrect. he never manipulated 616 Doom. He only manipulated the timestream so that 616 Doom performed the feats.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not familiar with the second time that Doom has humbled Galactus. When was this?In Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Magazine limited issue series:
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom has become god-like in less than a month in the storyline, Fantastic Four: The World's Greatest Comic Magazine. The links in the Dr. Doom respect thread are broken for this particular adventure of his. Back in 2001, Marvel decided to pay homage to Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and create a story where Doom and the FF and really, all of Marvel Earth got involved. Over two dozen writers and artists collaborated to produce the 12-issue miniseries. It's canon, and according to the authors and editors in the letter columns, takes place right before Fantastic Four #100:

Doom knew about Cap's first battle with the Red Skull and the Cosmic Cube and retrieves it via Time Platform:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube01WorldsGreatest4.jpg

He then goes on to steal the Sacred Helix of Randac which powers the Terrigen Crystals from Attilan:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube02WorldsGreatest5.jpg

Picking up information from Human Torch, he confronts the Watcher and steals his Ultimate Machine, which is a repository of the Watchers' entire accumulated knowledge:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube03WorldsGreatest6.jpg

He then travels to the Negative Zone to steal Annihilus' Cosmic Control Rod:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube04WorldsGreatest9.jpg

He combines the Cosmic Control Rod, the Cosmic Cube and his Power Cosmic Siphon Harness and confronts Galactus and takes his power by force:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube05WorldsGreatest10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube06.jpg

Here, Reed explains that Doom used the Sacred Helix of Randac to alter himself to withstand the overwhelming effects of using the Ultimate Machine. The Leader's mind had been completely overwhelmed when he tried to access it. Using the knowledge gained from it, he was able to figure out that the Cosmic Control Rod + Cosmic Cube + Power Cosmic Siphon Harness would be enough to drain Galactus of his power. And Doom finally starts the fighting:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube07WorldsGreatest11.jpg

The American military, SHIELD, Avengers, X-Men, Thor, Asgard and Odin, Namor and Atlantis:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube08.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube09.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube11.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube12.jpg

Where's Reed during all this? Using Doom's own invention, an ionic inanimate matter converter, powered by the Silver Surfer, Reed summons classic Marvel monsters to fight Doom. Black Bolt and the Inhumans join the fight as well:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube13WorldsGreatest12.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube14.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube15.jpg

That blasted Reed Richards takes advantage of Doom's distraction with his newfound hunger and his arrogance to retrieve the Cosmic Cube and undo his transformation:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube16.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomCosmicCube17.jpg

Reed goes on to erase the events from the entire world's memory with the Cosmic Cube. Only Galactus, Uatu and Reed remember what happened. Not bad for a few week's work. The above scans don't chronicle even a third of the things Doom did during the entire mini-series, but they ought to convey the spirit of the adventure. The epic dialogue from the last five scans comes from Stan Lee himself who penned the 12th issue.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
When did Thanos get bitchslapped in annihilation by Galactus? If I recall correctly he didnt take him on directly. Thanos sent someone else to do his dirty work for him. Brilliant. Thanos also saved Galactus the only time he directly engaged him with a blast to get his attention. Thanos wasnt there to punk Galactus but instead was there to try and avoid the Hunger's entry in our verse. Galactus refused to listen and Thanos cleaned up his mess. When Thanos has wanted Galactus,he had him captured in annihilation. Fact.

Ok and? When has Doom ever held on to such power without having to lose it anyways? Thanos survived that transformation due to his willpower and his prior experience with awesome power.

When has Warlock got the better of him alone? If Im not mistaken Warlock always had more allies when he faced off against Thanos. Thanos also helped him defeat his future self the Magus the first time around.

Thanos and warlock in terms of prep are on a whole other level than reed and doom. Thanos got b1tchslapped during the Hunger storyline. Thanos sent someone to immobilize Galactus so that he could study him with the Negative Zone's resources for weeks. He still couldn't break the secret of the Power Cosmic. I've already gone over how Doom has humbled Galactus on his own, twice, and cracked the secret with less time and fewer resources.

When has Thanos ever held onto power? The same criticism you use to deride Doom can be thrown back unto Thanos two-fold since all he does is gain power and lose it. TOAA guided him to gain THOTU so that he could fix the flaw. There was no other point to the story. Beyonder never guided Doom to steal his power. He opposed Doom's efforts and had to take it back by exploiting the situation.

Reed's top feat of prep is probably on par with Thanos' and Warlock's top feats.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah flew right smack dab into it. Wasnt smart enough to figure a way around it.

Magus was out for the ig not out for the cosmic cubes. Much more impressive.

How is it? Both were actively seeking it. You are telling me the TOAA might choose the worse of the two for the job? Really?

Thanos has stolen and kept greater power than Doom imo. The bad guy always has to lose it at some point.

I dont think its close. They operate in two totally different leagues. Theres earth threats and then there are cosmic threats. Doom is very good but he just isnt on Thanos' level. Thanos succeeds where Doom fails. Doom didn't know about it.

Magus did more with the CCU's than he did with the incomplete IG.

I'm telling you that it is speculation that Thanos was "the better person" for the job. TOAA could have easily just decided that Thanos ought to be punished and taught a lesson because of his sordid past and ignominious defeats.

THOTU meant for Thanos to have that power. Thanos even admits that he was given the power. Doom had to best the Beyonder to gain his power. A great deal of people feel that Beyonder's power is over THOTU's power or at the very least, it's equal. Considering that Doom was never selected for Beyonder's power and had to take it by force, it's very easily arguable that Doom outperformed Thanos in the "ultimate feat" department.

Thanos has never succeeded in anything, except finding acceptance with Death... by dying. Doom has already achieved his three top personal goals, some of them, several times: 1) free his mother's soul; 2) rule the world; and 3) defeat Reed Richards. Thanos may operate on a different league, but that doesn't solely determine whether one character stomps another with no effort. Terrax has destroyed/ruled over several worlds, even before becoming a herald. Didn't stop him from getting curbstomped by Sentry, an Earth-based hero. One of the most powerful characters in the greater Marvel omniverse is a 616 Earth-based hero, Scarlet Witch. The important thing is, when Doom has played on a cosmic scale, he has arguably performed just as well and usually with less. This is not a stomp.

manx422

thanos 7/10

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thanos got b1tchslapped during the Hunger storyline. Thanos sent someone to immobilize Galactus so that he could study him with the Negative Zone's resources for weeks. He still couldn't break the secret of the Power Cosmic. I've already gone over how Doom has humbled Galactus on his own, twice, and cracked the secret with less time and fewer resources.

When has Thanos ever held onto power? The same criticism you use to deride Doom can be thrown back unto Thanos two-fold since all he does is gain power and lose it. TOAA guided him to gain THOTU so that he could fix the flaw. There was no other point to the story. Beyonder never guided Doom to steal his power. He opposed Doom's efforts and had to take it back by exploiting the situation.

Reed's top feat of prep is probably on par with Thanos' and Warlock's top feats. Thanos saved reality in the hunger storyline.

Sending someone else to do your dirty work is brilliant. How many times does Doom send doombots all over creation to accomplish tasks for him. Doom didnt humble Galactus under his own power.

Thanos doesnt lose power because he cant handle it. He must lose it somehow but isnt due to him being simply overwhelmed like Doom was. TOAA selected Thanos because he was the man for the job,not Doom. Doom couldnt handle the power imo.

Reed has a shit ton of appearances but isnt the same prep god that Warlock is. Thats the point.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom didn't know about it.

Magus did more with the CCU's than he did with the incomplete IG.

I'm telling you that it is speculation that Thanos was "the better person" for the job. TOAA could have easily just decided that Thanos ought to be punished and taught a lesson because of his sordid past and ignominious defeats.

THOTU meant for Thanos to have that power. Thanos even admits that he was given the power. Doom had to best the Beyonder to gain his power. A great deal of people feel that Beyonder's power is over THOTU's power or at the very least, it's equal. Considering that Doom was never selected for Beyonder's power and had to take it by force, it's very easily arguable that Doom outperformed Thanos in the "ultimate feat" department.

Thanos has never succeeded in anything, except finding acceptance with Death... by dying. Doom has already achieved his three top personal goals, some of them, several times: 1) free his mother's soul; 2) rule the world; and 3) defeat Reed Richards. Thanos may operate on a different league, but that doesn't solely determine whether one character stomps another with no effort. Terrax has destroyed/ruled over several worlds, even before becoming a herald. Didn't stop him from getting curbstomped by Sentry, an Earth-based hero. One of the most powerful characters in the greater Marvel omniverse is a 616 Earth-based hero, Scarlet Witch. The important thing is, when Doom has played on a cosmic scale, he has arguably performed just as well and usually with less. This is not a stomp. Ignorance isnt an excuse. That even makes it worse in my book.

Maguc still sought out the ig because it was more powerful than the ig. Thats the point.

No,thats ridiculous imo. Why would TOAA not pick the best man for the job when the fate of all reality hung in the balance. Makes no sense to me.

1)He freed his mother's soul with Strange and the Surfer if my memory serves me correct. Dont pass it off like he did it alone. Thanos has tricked meph on his own and has used him as his own personal lackey during the ig series.

Thanos is in the big leagues while Doom is a triple a player who sometimes gets called up to the majors.
2)Rule the world,samll goal for a small mind(Thanos would never limit himself to such a small goal).

3)Defeat reed richards. Ok good for him,how many times has he lost against reed richards? Thanos has killed Warlock, has Doom ever killed Reed?

I see all these earth based threats that you are comparing to cosmic threats. Why do this to yourself when Thanos would stomp Doom. Those are the two characters that we are discussing. the most powerful cosmic threats dwarf the most powerful earth based threats anyways.

Its funny ho wyou say Thanos hasnt achieved any of his goals. Sure,Doom ruled the world but lost it just like Thanos lost the ig,etc. he still thinned the herd,got the cosmic cube,acquired the heart,is at death's side currently,etc. His success rate is off the charts. The same storylines with Doom and Thanos in has Thanos looking superior because he is.

Its a stomp.

basilisk

Originally posted by quanchi112

How is it? Both were actively seeking it. You are telling me the TOAA might choose the worse of the two for the job? Really?

Maybe TOAA chose Thanos because he was more easily manipulated and wouldn't figure out what was happening until it was too late. If Doom had been given the power it's possible he wouldn't have done what TOAA wanted him to do with it, or never given it up. Who knows. TOAA works in mysterious ways.

Thanos has always had the benefit of being his creator's personal pet character, and having any poor showings instantly retconned away because Starlin doesn't like them, and leaving only high showings. Very few characters have this advantage (offhand I can't think of any others, almost all characters have some really bad showings).

He is still very impressive of course, certainly in terms of sheer power, but really his plans aren't all that clever - in fact they are generally rather simplistic and rely heavily on Starlin zapping Thanos' opponents with stupid-rays for the duration of the story.

Anyway Thanos probably takes the majority.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You're talking past me. Which is fine. As long as you understand, that your term "manipulate" denotes a certain context, which is untrue concerning the details.
I disagree.

Imo, giving 616 Doom the feat is untrue concerning the details.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder "manipulated" events so that 616 Doom performed them.
I agree, this is what I've been saying.

Which is why 616 Doom doesn't get the feat.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

He did not manipulate either Doom into acting a certain way.
That is indisputable.
Therefore, Doom still performed that feat.
He did manipulate 616 Doom into acting a certain way,
he made 616 Doom act like his non-existent future self.
That is indisputable.
Therefore, Doom still performed that feat because of Beyonder's manipulation.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

As such, first it was future Doom who performed them.
Then it was 616 Doom that performed them.
Precisely, that's what I've been saying.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

There was no influence over 616 Doom's mind or over how the events played out.
It's your opinion, keep it.
Even though it was Beyonder himself
that re-placed the non-existent future Doom, with 616 Doom's mind?

Again, we can't escape the fact, Fact! ...
That the only reason 616 Doom had anything to do with a feat that was already performed,
was because Beyonder manipulated his participation.

I'm 100% confident about this, and I'm not letting go of that truth.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It borders on semantics for me and is not a clear enough distinction to discount the feat when in actuality and canon history, 616 Doom was there adn did everything in Secret Wars free from an outside influence that affected the way he would act or others acted.
I disagree.

616 Doom wasn't acting on his own,
he was forcibly repeating the actions of another person.

So yea, 616 Doom was not just influenced,
but his entire involvement was literally choreographed.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

In the end, Beyonder himself admitted that Doom bested him.
Already told ya friend, that scan was before Reed enlightened us with the fact that,
that was not the Doom Beyonder dealt with in the original Secret Wars.

Again, 616 Doom had never met, or even ever seen the Beyonder before this issue:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744420_beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.jpg

This is nearly two years after Secret Wars 1. smile

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

beyonder was pretty much forced to clsoe the time loop.
Beyonder did not give 616 Doom certain history or feats out of the goodness of his heart or for entertainment. And the way you justify use of the term "manipulate" may well be arguable, but the way you interpret the term "manipulate" is incorrect. he never manipulated 616 Doom. He only manipulated the timestream so that 616 Doom performed the feats.
You think I'm incorrect, and I think you're incorrect.

I'll leave you with this,
Beyonder himself clearly states that he will manipulate History: (as in 616 Doom's)

Literally, only 616 Doom's history needed to be altered to close the loop.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744398_Doom.jpg

"If I am a prisoner (of history) then let it be by my own hand the key if turned"

Mr Master

Xplosive

Thanos in every department.

quanchi112

Originally posted by basilisk
Maybe TOAA chose Thanos because he was more easily manipulated and wouldn't figure out what was happening until it was too late. If Doom had been given the power it's possible he wouldn't have done what TOAA wanted him to do with it, or never given it up. Who knows. TOAA works in mysterious ways.

Thanos has always had the benefit of being his creator's personal pet character, and having any poor showings instantly retconned away because Starlin doesn't like them, and leaving only high showings. Very few characters have this advantage (offhand I can't think of any others, almost all characters have some really bad showings).

He is still very impressive of course, certainly in terms of sheer power, but really his plans aren't all that clever - in fact they are generally rather simplistic and rely heavily on Starlin zapping Thanos' opponents with stupid-rays for the duration of the story.

Anyway Thanos probably takes the majority. If Doom would have never given it up then he would have destroyed himself and all of creation. Doom isnt an idiot. Thanos was the best man for the job. Thats it.

Regardless of your opinion of Starlin at least you agree Thanos wins this.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
Literally, only 616 Doom's history needed to be altered to close the loop.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744398_Doom.jpg

"If I am a prisoner (of history) then let it be by my own hand the key if turned" You're being selective with what you highlight. The very next bit of dialogue explains what is truly occurring. Beyonder does not make Doom into the exact Doom that was brought from the future. The only thing he does, by his own words: "... let Doom's body be recreated... let the mind of Victor Von Doom re-enter his body... and let Doom go now, transported from this moment in time... but let him go without thought or memory of what has here transpired, with no more knowledge of me than is possessed by any others gathered at that time."

From his own mouth, Beyonder did not manipulate 616 Doom into acting out events as had already been completely decided by prior history. He never makes him act as the future Doom did. He only sends 616 Doom back without memories of that episode in the apartment. 616 Doom than goes out and performs exactly what he performed. Not through manipulation, but simply because he is Doom. Beyonder admitted his defeat on-panel. Doom, when recounting the story, also credits himself with all actions:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/743384_beondersenddoomtopastvw5.jpg

"And I duly entered the Secret War, and stole your power, and was banished from your realm - back to the future I'd come from." There is nothing there that suggests Doom is only playing out that which was destined or forced upon him by history. You know how vain Doom is, he would never give himself credit for that which he personally did not accomplish. He would never find satisfaction from some feat performed at the behest of history rather than his own ingeniuity and will. You can keep your opinion, considering that it is 616 Doom in Secret Wars, that both Beyonder and Doom credit Doom with the feat and there is no evidence that suggests Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out exactly as they happened, there is no reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thanos saved reality in the hunger storyline.

Sending someone else to do your dirty work is brilliant. How many times does Doom send doombots all over creation to accomplish tasks for him. Doom didnt humble Galactus under his own power.

Thanos doesnt lose power because he cant handle it. He must lose it somehow but isnt due to him being simply overwhelmed like Doom was. TOAA selected Thanos because he was the man for the job,not Doom. Doom couldnt handle the power imo.

Reed has a shit ton of appearances but isnt the same prep god that Warlock is. Thats the point. So?

No, it's passing the buck. And Doom did humble Galactus personally. You've listed plenty of Thanos' feats before. Are you now going to not give Thanos credit because he used the Infinity Gems and a robot to defeat the remaining individual Elders? Because he gained knowledge from the Infinity Well? Because he had vast help in Infinity War? Because he had the Defenders to distract everyone while he reached for THOTU? That's semantics. Thanos performed what he performed. Doom performed what he performed. And as it stands, when it comes to Galactus, Thanos has been straight up pwned, whereas Doom has humbled him twice.

That is your opinion. Doom could handle the Beyonder's power now since he has experience with it. And that power is either equal to or greater than THOTU. Thanos can handle that power because he's had experience with power on that scale. Doom can now boast that same experience. So once again, it's your opinion, a speculative one, that Doom couldn't handle THOTU's power.

Reed's best prep feat is probably better than Warlock's best prep feat. And Doom has completely humbled Reed. Whereas Thanos has never gotten the better of Warlock.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ignorance isnt an excuse. That even makes it worse in my book.

Maguc still sought out the ig because it was more powerful than the ig. Thats the point.

No,thats ridiculous imo. Why would TOAA not pick the best man for the job when the fate of all reality hung in the balance. Makes no sense to me.

1)He freed his mother's soul with Strange and the Surfer if my memory serves me correct. Dont pass it off like he did it alone. Thanos has tricked meph on his own and has used him as his own personal lackey during the ig series.

Thanos is in the big leagues while Doom is a triple a player who sometimes gets called up to the majors.
2)Rule the world,samll goal for a small mind(Thanos would never limit himself to such a small goal).

3)Defeat reed richards. Ok good for him,how many times has he lost against reed richards? Thanos has killed Warlock, has Doom ever killed Reed?

I see all these earth based threats that you are comparing to cosmic threats. Why do this to yourself when Thanos would stomp Doom. Those are the two characters that we are discussing. the most powerful cosmic threats dwarf the most powerful earth based threats anyways.

Its funny ho wyou say Thanos hasnt achieved any of his goals. Sure,Doom ruled the world but lost it just like Thanos lost the ig,etc. he still thinned the herd,got the cosmic cube,acquired the heart,is at death's side currently,etc. His success rate is off the charts. The same storylines with Doom and Thanos in has Thanos looking superior because he is.

Its a stomp. It's worse for what? There are things that Thanos does not know. Are you going to chop him at the knees because something happens to escape his notice?

And Magus did more with the CCU's than he did with the incomplete IG. And Thanos didn't even really do anything to Magus w/ incomplete IG anyway. That's something you wish to look past, but it's the truth.

TOAA does what TOAA does. Being the "best man" for the job means nothing here. Personally, I would have picked Adam Warlock. But then again, Thanos wouldn't have been taught his lesson. Which is again, why TOAA gave him the task, so he could grow through his personal sacrifice.

Doom manipulated only Dr. Strange and Mephisto into freeing his mother's soul. He did it without owing anybody anything. Just at the cost of his mother's love. It is his own feat and own plan from the very beginning. Mephisto has never been more utterly outwitted than in Triumph and Torment. Mephisto was Thanos' lackey because he had the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos only tricked Mephisto with a lame "oops, you didn't mention those details" ploy.

It doesn't matter if you think it's worthless because it is a small goal. Doom's accomplished it several times over because it is his personal goal. What has Thanos accomplished other than outwitting himself and carrying out a love affair with Death?

Semantics. Killing Reed Richards was never Doom's personal goal. Besting him was. And he's done that. Thanos killed Warlock, whereupon Warlock came back and turned him into stone. Killing temporarily is easy, and something that Doom has spared Richards and his family from dozens of times. Personally and utterly humbling? That's something altogether different.

It's not a stomp. That's only your opinion. When Doom plays on a cosmic scale, he's just as, if not more impressive than Thanos.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You're being selective with what you highlight. The very next bit of dialogue explains what is truly occurring. Beyonder does not make Doom into the exact Doom that was brought from the future. The only thing he does, by his own words: "... let Doom's body be recreated... let the mind of Victor Von Doom re-enter his body... and let Doom go now, transported from this moment in time... but let him go without thought or memory of what has here transpired, with no more knowledge of me than is possessed by any others gathered at that time."

From his own mouth, Beyonder did not manipulate 616 Doom into acting out events as had already been completely decided by prior history.
I thought you were yankin my chain right here.

You repeated everything that Beyonder said, and it still translates to imo:

you're (616 Doom) only involvement in this feat is because of me, (Beyonder)
and even though now you (616 Doom) can take credit for it, (cause of me)
someone else (non-existent future Doom) accomplished it,
then you (616 Doom) came,
and like a puppet (616 Doom) was placed in the other's (n-e future Doom) stead,
and exactly everything that he (n-e future Doom) did,
you (616 Doom) were forced to repeat.

I love ya ODB, but this is not the one.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

He never makes him act as the future Doom did. He only sends 616 Doom back without memories of that episode in the apartment. 616 Doom than goes out and performs exactly what he performed. Not through manipulation, but simply because he is Doom.
He sends 616 Doom back to repeat the actions of another, that's manipulation.

Come on dogs.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder admitted his defeat on-panel.
Reed told us that was not 616 Doom:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744420_beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.jpg

616 Doom had never met,
or even seen the Beyonder up until a year and half after Secret Wars 1.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Doom, when recounting the story, also credits himself with all actions:

"And I duly entered the Secret War, and stole your power, and was banished from your realm - back to the future I'd come from." There is nothing there that suggests Doom is only playing out that which was destined or forced upon him by history. You know how vain Doom is, he would never give himself credit for that which he personally did not accomplish. He would never find satisfaction from some feat performed at the behest of history rather than his own ingeniuity and will.
Not true.

616 Doom is only explaining what Beyonder did to him,
he's literally describing how he was NOT the cat that stole B's power,
and how he THEN became the cat who stole his power,
and only because he's repeating the pre-meditated actions of another character.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You can keep your opinion, considering that it is 616 Doom in Secret Wars, that both Beyonder and Doom credit Doom with the feat and there is no evidence that suggests Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out exactly as they happened, there is no reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom.
You can keep your opinion,
considering that it was not 616 Doom in the original Secret Wars,
all the evidence clarifies that Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out
exactly as they happened,
there is clear reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can keep your opinion,
considering that it was not 616 Doom in the original Secret Wars,
all the evidence clarifies that Beyonder overtly forced him to play events out
exactly as they happened,
there is clear reason to discount the feat for 616 Doom. No. Not when Beyonder says concretely that he only restored Doom's body and wiped his memories of that episode in the apartment and sent him back. He never stated, "I send you now, to do exactly what the other Doom did." No. That is a very simple fact. You can argue that Beyonder forced him to play out events exactly as they happened.

But as there is no confirmation, it's speculation. We can agree to disagree, but without Beyonder stating he forced 616 Doom into acting that way, or at the very least, suggesting such, your use of the term "manipulation" is very loosely tied to what actions were actually performed and by whom they were performed. Beyonder admits his defeat. 616 Doom admits his victory, whilst knowing of what Beyonder did. It is 616 Doom in Secret Wars. It's very simple.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

No. Not when Beyonder says concretely that he only restored Doom's body and wiped his memories of that episode in the apartment and sent him back. He never stated, "I send you now, to do exactly what the other Doom did." No. That is a very simple fact. You can argue that Beyonder forced him to play out events exactly as they happened.

But as there is no confirmation, it's speculation.
Actually good friend,
Doom had to play out events exactly or else he could change history,
and that would open up opening another can of paradoxical worms.

Speculation is theorizing whether or not he did things differently,
we are giving the basic information necessary to know the exact same events played out.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

We can agree to disagree
True that, I can only go with what's depicted/presented/stated on panel.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

but without Beyonder stating he forced 616 Doom into acting that way, or at the very least, suggesting such, your use of the term "manipulation" is very loosely tied to what actions were actually performed and by whom they were performed. Beyonder admits his defeat. 616 Doom admits his victory, whilst knowing of what Beyonder did. It is 616 Doom in Secret Wars. It's very simple.
Not according to on panel evidence, but as you wish:

Both accounts, by the mouth of Beyonder and Doom:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746642_Doom.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746643_Doom2.jpg

The only reason 616 Doom had anything to do with Secret Wars,
was because the Beyonder manipulated his participation.

616 Doom literally simply re-placed the stead of another's feat.

The other being who truly accomplished the feat, never even existed. laughing out loud

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So?

No, it's passing the buck. And Doom did humble Galactus personally. You've listed plenty of Thanos' feats before. Are you now going to not give Thanos credit because he used the Infinity Gems and a robot to defeat the remaining individual Elders? Because he gained knowledge from the Infinity Well? Because he had vast help in Infinity War? Because he had the Defenders to distract everyone while he reached for THOTU? That's semantics. Thanos performed what he performed. Doom performed what he performed. And as it stands, when it comes to Galactus, Thanos has been straight up pwned, whereas Doom has humbled him twice.

That is your opinion. Doom could handle the Beyonder's power now since he has experience with it. And that power is either equal to or greater than THOTU. Thanos can handle that power because he's had experience with power on that scale. Doom can now boast that same experience. So once again, it's your opinion, a speculative one, that Doom couldn't handle THOTU's power.

Reed's best prep feat is probably better than Warlock's best prep feat. And Doom has completely humbled Reed. Whereas Thanos has never gotten the better of Warlock. No, it isnt. Thanos saved all of reality including Galactus due to his jackassery. Thanos defeated the elders due to intelligence and guile. He accomplished his mission and matched wits with grandmaster and came out on top. Thanos has defeated Galactus twice. Once in ig and once in marvel's the end. He pwned Galactus along with Lt and all the rest. Anyway you look at it Thanos has him spanked.

I dont know if I believe Doom could handle it and as I see with you and master's debate it might not even be 616 Doom. But,I am a generous man take the feat. Doom needs all the help he can get.

Doom wasnt chosen for the power because Thanos was the better man. It has become the theme of this debate. Even you agree Thanos beats him,but you won give Thanos the stomp even though you know it to be true.

Mr Master

....................................................................................

Ok, this cements my point as fact:

After Beyonder sent 616 Doom to the past, to repeat the actions of the orginal culprit,
Reed clarifies what 616 Doom will be doing there:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746644_Doom3.jpg

She-Hulk: ... "He's (616 Doom) gone into the Past hasn't he"

Reed: ... "Yes, but there he will begin a CYCLE
that will end with the Beyonder banishing him 'across time & space,'
at the conclusion of the First Secret Wars."

....................................................................................

Reed knows exactly what 616 Doom will do, and how it will end for him,
cause it already happened, as I said and proved without this blatant proof,
616 Doom is only replacing the actions of another.

Surely you will agree now true debater. swank

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's worse for what? There are things that Thanos does not know. Are you going to chop him at the knees because something happens to escape his notice?

And Magus did more with the CCU's than he did with the incomplete IG. And Thanos didn't even really do anything to Magus w/ incomplete IG anyway. That's something you wish to look past, but it's the truth.

TOAA does what TOAA does. Being the "best man" for the job means nothing here. Personally, I would have picked Adam Warlock. But then again, Thanos wouldn't have been taught his lesson. Which is again, why TOAA gave him the task, so he could grow through his personal sacrifice.

Doom manipulated only Dr. Strange and Mephisto into freeing his mother's soul. He did it without owing anybody anything. Just at the cost of his mother's love. It is his own feat and own plan from the very beginning. Mephisto has never been more utterly outwitted than in Triumph and Torment. Mephisto was Thanos' lackey because he had the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos only tricked Mephisto with a lame "oops, you didn't mention those details" ploy.

It doesn't matter if you think it's worthless because it is a small goal. Doom's accomplished it several times over because it is his personal goal. What has Thanos accomplished other than outwitting himself and carrying out a love affair with Death?

Semantics. Killing Reed Richards was never Doom's personal goal. Besting him was. And he's done that. Thanos killed Warlock, whereupon Warlock came back and turned him into stone. Killing temporarily is easy, and something that Doom has spared Richards and his family from dozens of times. Personally and utterly humbling? That's something altogether different.

It's not a stomp. That's only your opinion. When Doom plays on a cosmic scale, he's just as, if not more impressive than Thanos. Yes,there are things that Thanos doesnt know. But Galactus just pwning Doom's power cosmic from him,that was just bad imo. When has Thanos ever gotten a powerup and just looked awful like Doom did in that particular story. The universe gathers to oppose him while Doom attracts the ff4. Huge difference.

Yes,Magus had the ccu's for most of the arc. If Magus had gotten the 6 gems it would more than likely have been lights out(I know he cant win,but you understand what I mean). Magus was far more powerful and dangerous with the gems than with the ccu's. Doom failed. Thats it. You either win or you lose,and he lost.

Thanos and Warlock are both prep gods and imo better than Doom. I just couldnt see the TOAA going to Doom for even his second choice.

Doom needed their help. Meph made a deal with Thanos for a ccu which Thanos obtained on his own years ago and played Meph for the fool. That happens to those who come into contact with Thanos quite a bit.

Are you saying that Doom doesnt want to beat reed for all time? Because Reed seems to be doing fine to me. Again,these two characters play on a different scale. Thanos is the bigtime while Doom isnt.

When Thanos was killed I beleive he was also opposed by Order,Chaos and a whole slew of others. Doom gets beat by the ff4. Huge difference.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
Both accounts, by the mouth of Beyonder and Doom:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746642_Doom.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746643_Doom2.jpg

The only reason 616 Doom had anything to do with Secret Wars,
was because the Beyonder manipulated his participation.

616 Doom literally simply re-placed the stead of another's feat.

The other being who truly accomplished the feat, never even existed. laughing out loud

AHA! So it was the Doom from that time period! This so-called "Doom who never existed and was plucked from some indescript future" was the Doom in Fantastic Four #288! Don't you see?! This cements my position even further! This "future Doom" wasn't even a Doom from 10 years or dozens of years later; as Reed himself states, it was a Doom from, "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to our Doctor Doom!"

This is absolute pure and unequivocal evidence that the Dr. Doom that has always appeared in Secret Wars was our 616 Dr. Doom. There was NEVER a "future Doom that never existed." As Reed himself states, Beyonder isn't manipulating events to send back a 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars to replace some "non-existent future Doom," he is only doing exactly what his past self wanted to do, summoning a Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. That itself was the time-loop! Dr. Doom is, and always was, 616 Dr. Doom, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!"

As Reed himself unequivocally states, Secret Wars Doom was ALWAYS 616 Doom from Fantastic Four #288. If it was a different Doom at first, then there would have been no space-time paradox to close. If it was a different Doom he was replacing, let's say Doom from Earth-11435, then Beyonder and 616 reality would not be in danger. As it was 616 Doom himself and he had to be there, then it was ALWAYS 616 Doom. That is why there is danger to the space-time continuum in the first place!

AHA! As I originally thought when I read that issue several months ago. I knew there was something off when we discussed this in that other thread! I knew it! This completely closes the issue for me. Discussing this further has only confirmed my suspicions from the beginning. And truly, there is no turning back from this point on. So, keep your opinion, we will agree to disagree. Although, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why you would think otherwise.

Secret Wars Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it isnt. Thanos saved all of reality including Galactus due to his jackassery. Thanos defeated the elders due to intelligence and guile. He accomplished his mission and matched wits with grandmaster and came out on top. Thanos has defeated Galactus twice. Once in ig and once in marvel's the end. He pwned Galactus along with Lt and all the rest. Anyway you look at it Thanos has him spanked.

I dont know if I believe Doom could handle it and as I see with you and master's debate it might not even be 616 Doom. But,I am a generous man take the feat. Doom needs all the help he can get.

Doom wasnt chosen for the power because Thanos was the better man. It has become the theme of this debate. Even you agree Thanos beats him,but you won give Thanos the stomp even though you know it to be true. You're using logic to shortchange Doom's personal humbling of Galactus when that logic would completely shortchange Thanos' feats as well. Thanos used the Power Gem to defeat the Gardener, not his own personal power. Thanos used the Time Gem to defeat the Runner, not his own personal power. By arguing that Doom didn't take down Galactus with his own personal power, you've now completely destroyed Thanos' own personal best feats. As you can easily see, it was Doom's own intelligence and guile that took down Galactus.

And Thanos has only done so whilst using an artifact of power that far surpasses Galactus in power, i.e. Infinity Gauntlet or THOTU. Otherwise, he's deferred to greater beings. Reed has beaten Abraxas with the Ultimate Nullifier, one of the most powerful artifacts in comics. Are you going to suggest that he should get more personal props than Thor who drove back a weak Galactus with Mjolnir? Then use that false distinction to argue that Reed would beat Thor in a curbstomp? I think not. You're waffling in your logic. You don't need to. Very few people have put much thought into what Dr. Doom has accomplished throughout the years. He gets automatic respect in the prep department, but not nearly as much as he deserves.

Doom could handle Beyonder's power a second time. I will get scans confirming this when I can. I'm not saying this speculatively. I'm saying this on the basis of on-panel proof. Dr. Doom would contain the Beyonder's power if he had a second chance. And 616 Doom is and always was Secret Wars Dr. Doom. That has been made clear to me with the newest scans that Mr. Master posted. The so-called "future" that Dr. Doom came from was the present-time in Fantastic Four #288. There was never some far-flung distant future or alternate reality Earth-12145 something-or-other where Beyonder grabbed Doom from. That feat is, and always has been 616 Dr. Doom's.

Thanos would never beat Doom in a stomp. Not when Doom is Thanos' superior in several key areas and matches Thanos' best feats in the cosmic arena. Keep your opinion, I know I won't change it. But there's no need to ignore or miscontrue what exactly Dr. Doom has accomplished.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

AHA! So it was the Doom from that time period! This so-called "Doom who never existed and was plucked from some indescript future" was the Doom in Fantastic Four #288! Don't you see?! This cements my position even further! This "future Doom" wasn't even a Doom from 10 years or dozens of years later; as Reed himself states, it was a Doom from, "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to our Doctor Doom!"

This is absolute pure and unequivocal evidence that the Dr. Doom that has always appeared in Secret Wars was our 616 Dr. Doom. There was NEVER a "future Doom that never existed." As Reed himself states, Beyonder isn't manipulating events to send back a 616 Dr. Doom into Secret Wars to replace some "non-existent future Doom," he is only doing exactly what his past self wanted to do, summoning a Dr. Doom into Secret Wars. That itself was the time-loop! Dr. Doom is, and always was, 616 Dr. Doom, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!"

As Reed himself unequivocally states, Secret Wars Doom was ALWAYS 616 Doom from Fantastic Four#288. If it was a different Doom at first, then there would have been no space-time paradox to close. If it was a different Doom he was replacing, let's say Doom from Earth-11435, then Beyonder and 616 reality would not be in danger. As it was 616 Doom himself and he had to be there, then it was ALWAYS 616 Doom. That is why there is danger to the space-time continuum in the first place!

AHA! As I originally thought when I read that issue several months ago. I knew there was something off when we discussed this in that other thread! I knew it! This completely closes the issue for me. Discussing this further has only confirmed my suspicions from the beginning. And truly, there is no turning back from this point on. So, keep your opinion, we will agree to disagree. Although, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why you would think otherwise.

Secret War Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288.
laughing

... I still think you're yankin my chain out of boredom.

You must be under the impression good friend that if you bold up your opinion,
it will somehow force itself into factual truth ... but, nah.

... 616 Doom didn't have his body when Beyonder made Secret Wars,
616 Doom was still on Earth all that time, before and after Secret Wars.

The Doom that was involved in Secret Wars never existed.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744420_beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.jpg

616 Doom had never met,
or even seen the Beyonder up until a year and half after Secret Wars 1.

See, I can bold up the on panel facts too, doesn't mean anything.

I challenge you to find the future Doom Beyonder took, on panel, in #288.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And 616 Doom is and always was Secret Wars Dr. Doom. That has been made clear to me with the newest scans that Mr. Master posted. The so-called "future" that Dr. Doom came from was the present-time in Fantastic Four #288. There was never some far-flung distant future or alternate reality Earth-12145 something-or-other where Beyonder grabbed Doom from. That feat is, and always has been 616 Dr. Doom's.
Not true.

616 Doom had absolutely nothing to do with the original Secret Wars.
That has been made clear to everyone with the newest scans I posted.

The future Doom came from a future he did not exist in,
this future later became the real present and guess what,
there is NO Doom in this present with his original body in the entire Universe,
so I'd like to know how 616 Doom, in McArthur's body, ended up being the Secret Wars Doom,
who had a completely different body and aura?

On Panel truth 1:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746806_Doom.jpg
http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746807_Doom2.jpg

616 Doom was living a life with McArthur's woman, while Secret Wars was happening,
way before Secret Wars, since his body was obliterated in the Terrax incident back in 83'
up until # 288 below:

On Panel truth 2:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746808_Doom3.jpg
http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746809_Doom4.jpg

So basically,
you believe 616 Doom was existing in both Universes (616 & Battleworld) simultaneously? dontgetit

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
616 Doom had never met,
or even seen the Beyonder up until a year and half after Secret Wars 1.Exactly. Because the Secret Wars Doom had yet to manifest in the linear progression of time. As Reed himself states, it was a Doom from, "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to our Doctor Doom!" That's the only reason why 616 Doom, before that very scene in Fantastic Four #288, never met or saw Beyonder.

You highlighted the exact premise that when combined with Reed's and Beyonder's statement solidifies the presence of the time loop. FF #288 616 Doom's presence in Secret Wars is the cause of the timeloop from the very start. Consider this: "Why would Beyonder be threatened by a time loop in the first place?" If the original Secret Wars Doom was a Doom from, say Earth-1425, there would be no paradox that threatens the timestream. This theoretical 1425 Doom had already performed his part of history and FF #288 616 Doom could be killed with impunity.

But as is made unequivocally clear, Beyonder could not risk killing FF #288 616 Doom. If he did, he risked undoing history, unravelling the time-loop and causing his own destruction. As Reed says, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!" If the FF #288 616 Doom was killed, Beyonder would have prevented history from happening as it already occurred, ruined the space-time continuum, destroyed time and destroyed himself:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746643_Doom2.jpg
Originally posted by Mr Master
I challenge you to find the future Doom Beyonder took, on panel, in #288. This was the Doom from "our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from..." Right here, in your very own scan is the "future Doom" you challenge me to find. And who is he? He is 616 Doom with a restored body, with his own mind, sans memories of their conversation:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746642_Doom.jpg

Secret Wars Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288. The obvious paradox that presents is what threatened the space-time continuum and forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288.

EDIT: Put in wrong scan for second one. Fixed now.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not true.

616 Doom had absolutely nothing to do with the original Secret Wars.
That has been made clear to everyone with the newest scans I posted.

The future Doom came from a future he did not exist in,
this future later became the real present and guess what,
there is NO Doom in this present with his original body in the entire Universe,
so I'd like to know how 616 Doom, in McArthur's body, ended up being the Secret Wars Doom,
who had a completely different body and aura?

616 Doom was living a life with McArthur's woman, while Secret Wars was happening,
way before Secret Wars, since his body was obliterated in the Terrax incident back in 83'
up until # 288 below:

So basically,
you believe 616 Doom was existing in both Universes (616 & Battleworld) simultaneously? dontgetit You're confusing yourself. When Beyonder states, "I took him (Doom) from your future." He is referring to a "future" as it stands relative to Secret Wars and Fantastic Four #260, when Doom escaped into Norman's body. That "future" was Fantastic Four #288 as is clearly stated by Reed himself: "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- !"

The paradox that is presented in your last question is exactly the paradox that forced Beyonder's hand.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're using logic to shortchange Doom's personal humbling of Galactus when that logic would completely shortchange Thanos' feats as well. Thanos used the Power Gem to defeat the Gardener, not his own personal power. Thanos used the Time Gem to defeat the Runner, not his own personal power. By arguing that Doom didn't take down Galactus with his own personal power, you've now completely destroyed Thanos' own personal best feats. As you can easily see, it was Doom's own intelligence and guile that took down Galactus.

And Thanos has only done so whilst using an artifact of power that far surpasses Galactus in power, i.e. Infinity Gauntlet or THOTU. Otherwise, he's deferred to greater beings. Reed has beaten Abraxas with the Ultimate Nullifier, one of the most powerful artifacts in comics. Are you going to suggest that he should get more personal props than Thor who drove back a weak Galactus with Mjolnir? Then use that false distinction to argue that Reed would beat Thor in a curbstomp? I think not. You're waffling in your logic. You don't need to. Very few people have put much thought into what Dr. Doom has accomplished throughout the years. He gets automatic respect in the prep department, but not nearly as much as he deserves.

Doom could handle Beyonder's power a second time. I will get scans confirming this when I can. I'm not saying this speculatively. I'm saying this on the basis of on-panel proof. Dr. Doom would contain the Beyonder's power if he had a second chance. And 616 Doom is and always was Secret Wars Dr. Doom. That has been made clear to me with the newest scans that Mr. Master posted. The so-called "future" that Dr. Doom came from was the present-time in Fantastic Four #288. There was never some far-flung distant future or alternate reality Earth-12145 something-or-other where Beyonder grabbed Doom from. That feat is, and always has been 616 Dr. Doom's.

Thanos would never beat Doom in a stomp. Not when Doom is Thanos' superior in several key areas and matches Thanos' best feats in the cosmic arena. Keep your opinion, I know I won't change it. But there's no need to ignore or miscontrue what exactly Dr. Doom has accomplished. Doom took advantage of a situation to get the better of Galactus during secret wars. Doom couldnt just pwn Galactus on his own. Thanos has had Galactus as his prisoner before while choosing no to usurp his power because it wasnt his goal. The guy was simply bored during annihilation. He has already held ultimate power enough. NO ONE TOOK IT FROM HIM in marvel's the end. Doom had it taken from him.

This isnt about who can get the better of Galactus its about who is better at prepping and the answer is clearly Thanos. Thanos gets what he desires. Most wouldnt even give the feat to 616 Doom anyways.

I dont get the Thor and Reed comparison at all. Seriously,it isnt like Doom just pwned Galactus on his own. He was busy with the beyonder and his attention wasnt just on Dooml like Galactus' was when Thanos got his attention in his own series. Dont misconstrue these events and give Doom more credit than he deserves.

Id like to see the scans confirming this.

I havent really paid attention to you and mr masters debate on this issue,but it seems he disagrees with you. What I have read is that the beyonder manipulated these events and allowed them to take place,so really the beyonder let the feat stand.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

Doom took advantage of a situation to get the better of Galactus during secret wars.
Doom couldnt just pwn Galactus on his own.
And it's inconsequential since it wasn't 616 Doom.
Originally posted by quanchi112

Most wouldnt even give the feat to 616 Doom anyways.
True.

616 Doom's involvement in the feat was the Beyonder's manipulation.

Beyonder forced 616 Doom
to literally take the place of the cat who really accomplished the feat,
that cat, (the future Doom) never existed.
Originally posted by quanchi112

What I have read is that the beyonder manipulated these events
and allowed them to take place,
so really the beyonder let the feat stand.
thumb up

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mr Master
And it's inconsequential since it wasn't 616 Doom.

True.

616 Doom's involvement in the feat was the Beyonder's manipulation.

Beyonder forced 616 Doom
to literally take the place of the cat who really accomplished the feat,
that cat, (the future Doom) never existed.

thumb up

This is one of those debates, I'm 100% confident about.

It's simple,
if 616 Doom was on Earth living a life as another man named McArthur,
while Secret Wars took place and finished,
then obviously there's NO freakin way 616 Doom could've also been in Secret Wars. Mr Master, I havent read secret wars or even looked at it in years. Wasnt it retconned anyways as a

Im on msn and not thinking.....dammit.

Odg asnwered it though.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Doom took advantage of a situation to get the better of Galactus during secret wars. Doom couldnt just pwn Galactus on his own. Thanos has had Galactus as his prisoner before while choosing no to usurp his power because it wasnt his goal. The guy was simply bored during annihilation. He has already held ultimate power enough. NO ONE TOOK IT FROM HIM in marvel's the end. Doom had it taken from him.Doom has and did pwn Galactus on his own with prep. Twice. Annihilus, Tenebrous, Aegis and Thanos together held Galactus prisoner. And Thanos still couldn't figure out the secrets to stripping, transferring or imbuing others with the Power Cosmic. Something Doom figured out years and years ago.
Originally posted by quanchi112
This isnt about who can get the better of Galactus its about who is better at prepping and the answer is clearly Thanos. Thanos gets what he desires. Most wouldnt even give the feat to 616 Doom anyways.Doom's best prep feats rival and arguably surpass Thanos' best. Doom didn't get an Infinity Well for knowledge. He didn't get Death augmenting him. He didn't get much time either for most of them. He certainly didn't have "allies," as the traditional term is used. Most people do give 616 Doom the feat. Very few even know of the debate Mr. Master and I are having. And up until now, I didn't think it was absolutely conclusive either way. Now, I am 100% sure that it is and always was 616 Dr. Doom.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I dont get the Thor and Reed comparison at all. Seriously,it isnt like Doom just pwned Galactus on his own. He was busy with the beyonder and his attention wasnt just on Dooml like Galactus' was when Thanos got his attention in his own series. Dont misconstrue these events and give Doom more credit than he deserves.The same criticism you're using to detract from Doom pwning Galactus in Secret Wars is the same criticism I can lay on Thanos, when he used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order to acquire THOTU. The sword of your logic cuts both-ways. Double-standards don't suit you.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Id like to see the scans confirming this.You will. When I get my laptop's power cord back and I'm not restrained from downloading comics. I'm posting from a library at this very moment.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I havent really paid attention to you and mr masters debate on this issue,but it seems he disagrees with you. What I have read is that the beyonder manipulated these events and allowed them to take place,so really the beyonder let the feat stand. No. It's clear. Secret Wars Dr. Doom was always 616 Dr. Doom. The odd paradox that presents in and of itself is exactly what forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is one of those debates, I'm 100% confident about.

It's simple,
if 616 Doom was on Earth living a life as another man named McArthur,
while Secret Wars took place and finished,
then obviously there's NO freakin way 616 Doom could've also been in Secret Wars.This is the exact paradox that Beyonder was confronted with. That is why he had to spare Doom's life and send him back to complete history as it happened.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Guy I havent read secret wars or even looked at it in years. Wasnt it retconned anyways as a dream? The events in Secret Wars II appears to be retconned as occurring on some asteroid where Beyonder was playing with himself. Secret Wars itself was not retconned.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Exactly. Because the Secret Wars Doom had yet to manifest in the linear progression of time. As Reed himself states, it was a Doom from, "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to our Doctor Doom!" That's the only reason why 616 Doom, before that very scene in Fantastic Four #288, never met or saw Beyonder.
Nah, 616 Doom never met or had seen Beyonder: (before, during or after Secret Wars)

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744420_beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.jpg

Because 616 Doom was on Earth, while the other Doom was in Battleworld.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You highlighted the exact premise that when combined with Reed's and Beyonder's statement solidifies the presence of the time loop. FF #288 616 Doom's presence in Secret Wars is the cause of the timeloop from the very start. Consider this: "Why would Beyonder be threatened by a time loop in the first place?" If the original Secret Wars Doom was a Doom from, say Earth-1425, there would be no paradox that threatens the timestream. This theoretical 1425 Doom had already performed his part of history and FF #288 616 Doom could be killed with impunity.

But as is made unequivocally clear, Beyonder could not risk killing FF #288 616 Doom. If he did, he risked undoing history, unravelling the time-loop and causing his own destruction. As Reed says, "You must cooperate with your past self and send Doom back to the Secret War, or the space-time continuum will be torn in two -- and even you can't survive the destruction of time itself!" If the FF #288 616 Doom was killed, Beyonder would have prevented history from happening as it already occurred, ruined the space-time continuum, destroyed time and destroyed himself
Nah, the reason there was a timeloop, is because the present had been reached,
and the Beyonder took a Doom from a future, which became the present, he did not exist in,
this is why Reed says, "events that happened for us, have yet to happen for him"
because by replacing 616 Doom with the other being that accomplished the feat,
the loop is sealed since now 616 Doom fill in the gap that was empty
since there never wasn't any Doom in this future that became the present.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

This was the Doom from "our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from..." Right here, in your very own scan is the "future Doom" you challenge me to find. And who is he? He is 616 Doom with a restored body, with his own mind, sans memories of their conversation:
He came from that time, and yet he was NEVER there,
I think that's what you're missing.

Please, again, show me the Doom from secret Wars with his original body and aura in #288.

Good luck with that one.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Secret Wars Dr. Doom is and always was 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288. The obvious paradox that presents is what threatened the space-time continuum and forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288.
Secret Wars Dr. Doom was NEVER 616 Dr. Doom from Fantastic Four #288.,

Doom was living on Earth as McArthur while Seceret Wars happened and finished.

On Panel truth 1:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746806_Doom.jpg
http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746807_Doom2.jpg

616 Doom was living a life with McArthur's woman, while Secret Wars was happening,
in fact, he was always safe on Earth 616,
in fact, 616 Doom was in McArthur's body way before Secret Wars,
in fact, ever since his body was obliterated in the Terrax incident back in 83'
up until #288 below:

On Panel truth 2:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746808_Doom3.jpg
http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746809_Doom4.jpg

Unless,
you believe 616 Doom was existing in both Universes (616 & Battleworld) simultaneously? dontgetit

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You're confusing yourself.
Thanx for the update great one. glare
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

When Beyonder states, "I took him (Doom) from your future." He is referring to a "future" as it stands relative to Secret Wars and Fantastic Four #260, when Doom escaped into Norman's body. That "future" was Fantastic Four #288 as is clearly stated by Reed himself: "Our future -- which has finally become our present! t's this time he came from-- !"

The paradox that is presented in your last question is exactly the paradox that forced Beyonder's hand.
Still with the "our future" that is present now.

You're ignoring the fact that Doom
with his original body and aura, did NOT exist in this future that has become the present.
(that's what cause the time-loop)

616 Doom's mind and aura was within McArthur's body on Earth 616.

While the Doom from Secret Wars was in another Universe in Battleworld.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

Mr Master, I havent read secret wars or even looked at it in years.

Wasnt it retconned anyways
Yes,
the non-existent future Doom's feat has been lowered to usurping the power of a Cube being.

Far below the CCU, IG or HOTI, which Thanos has had all.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Secret Wars Dr. Doom was always 616 Dr. Doom.
The odd paradox that presents in and of itself is exactly what forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288.
Not true.

Secret Wars Dr. Doom was NEVER 616 Dr. Doom, until Beyonder forced him to be such.

I was always 100% sure about this. yes

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

This is the exact paradox that Beyonder was confronted with.
That is why he had to spare Doom's life and send him back to complete history as it happened.

I disagree.

616 Doom was on Earth, in another body, there's nothing you can say to change that fact.

Secret Wars Doom was in another Universe on Battleworld.

The Doom that Beyonder plucked from the future, never existed,
never appears on panel when this future is reach in the present.

But yall already know this!

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/744420_beyondercontrolovertimelifejo7.jpg

Nothing can change the on panel facts. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by Mr Master
....................................................................................

Ok, this cements my point as fact:

After Beyonder sent 616 Doom to the past, to repeat the actions of the orginal culprit,
Reed clarifies what 616 Doom will be doing there:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746644_Doom3.jpg

She-Hulk: ... "He's (616 Doom) gone into the Past hasn't he"

Reed: ... "Yes, but there he will begin a CYCLE
that will end with the Beyonder banishing him 'across time & space,'
at the conclusion of the First Secret Wars."

....................................................................................

Reed knows exactly what 616 Doom will do, and how it will end for him,
cause it already happened, as I said and proved without this blatant proof,
616 Doom is only replacing the actions of another.

Surely you will agree now true debater. swank

King KAM

This fight is rediculous.

It's like Coca Cola Classic vs Diet Coke.

Dr.Doom has all the evil intentions, half the intelligence.

Nihilist

Originally posted by King KAM
This fight is rediculous.

It's like Coca Cola Classic vs Diet Coke.

Dr.Doom has all the evil intentions, half the intelligence.
laughing out loud

i like

King KAM

Originally posted by Nihilist
laughing out loud

i like Now don't get me wrong, some people prefer diet Coke over Classic....

Those people are known as pansies

Nihilist

Originally posted by King KAM
Now don't get me wrong, some people prefer diet Coke over Classic....

Those people are known as pansies

full sugar ftw

Allankles

Doom is a walking plot device. Cant' beat this character how about stealing some device that is conveniently within reach via time travel or whatever? Because he's a walking plot device I can see Doom getting some wins off of Thanos. Thanos 7/10.

Avlon

Interesting debate and points all over the case.
One question for the cosmoholics.

If Thanos does not understand the power cosmic...then how did he create Omega?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thanx for the update great one. glare

Still with the "our future" that is present now.

You're ignoring the fact that Doom
with his original body and aura, did NOT exist in this future that has become the present.
(that's what cause the time-loop)

616 Doom's mind and aura was within McArthur's body on Earth 616.

While the Doom from Secret Wars was in another Universe in Battleworld. Perhaps we are both talking past each other. So let me reframe my arguments to make this issue clearer. From here on in, since you are 100% confident that a future Doom who never really existed was the first Doom that participated in Secret Wars, let's designate this hypothetical Doom as 161 Doom and as usual, canon Doom as 616 Doom. Now, I pose this question to you Mr. Master (and actually anybody else that cares to throw their two cents in), "What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"
Originally posted by Avlon
Interesting debate and points all over the case.
One question for the cosmoholics.

If Thanos does not understand the power cosmic...then how did he create Omega? IIRC, splicing and combining his and Galactus' DNA in repeated experiments.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Mr. Master (and actually anybody else that cares to throw their two cents in), "What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"
That doesn't work, cause my reasons are based on,
why the timestream would collapse due to 616 Doom being killed.

Secret Wars Doom was taken from the future, you know it, I know it,
that automatically stamps that Doom as being from another Timeline.

Before you said:

"There was never some far-flung distant future
or alternate reality Earth-12145 something-or-other
where Beyonder grabbed Doom from."

But actually there was an alternate Doom Earth-###, from the future,
it was simply never mentioned,
because that's an intricate detail which one either knows, or does not.

It's also inconsequential to less strict comic aficionados like ourselves.
(titles that deal overtly with alternate/diverged realities would have made it clear imo)

Anyhow,
basically EVERY Future depicted in any story, is an alternate possible Future,
and yet, they are are all the direct Futures of 616, but only possible Futures,
and they are all located in separate realities.

Mr Master

Here's an example:

616 Dr Strange & the GOTG depart from each other,
616 Strange travels back to his Universe (616)
and the GOTG travel to their Universe (691)

Notice how they are located in separate Universes, and yet,
691 is a direct future of 616, Dr Strange says:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/750150_Alternate_Futures.jpg

"GOTG hyper-driving into their Future, (691)
a Future (691) in which I assume the mantle of the Ancient One ...
... but not yet my friends, not yet ...
I have unfinished business back on Earth. (616) ... time ripples ...
that could explain how the GOTG will return to their alternate Future, (691)
while I arrive in my normal Timeline (616)

.....................................................................

In the same fashion, Secret Wars Doom, was from an "alternate future"
the trick to understand is, it is 616 Doom ... but NOT technically.

This is why the loop was created,
cause the Secret Wars Doom & 616 Doom were supposed to diverge apart,
at the point when the Present was reached, when Reed says, "Our Future."

One Doom continuing to exist in 616,
and the other Doom continuing to exist into a new alternate future,
instead ... Secret Wars Doom was obliterated across time and space!

This is all Marvel canon good friend:

...................................................................................

According to Marvel.com:

"Alternate Future"

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Glossary:A

"One of the possible future realities deriving from the present reality
through a specific sequence of events.
One cannot tell which alternate future will become one's present reality
until the point of divergence has passed.
At that point,
one's reality diverges into more than one,
and versions of one's self will exist in each resulting alternate future.
Hence,
one's divergent self will experience one of the alternate futures as their present reality,
while another of his divergent selves will experience a different alternate future as theirs."

...................................................................................

According the official Marvel Handbooks Update - 2007:

"Alternate Future"

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542949_hct1.jpg

"One of the possible future realities deriving from the present reality,
though a specific sequence of events"

...................................................................................

Mr Master

...............................................................................................................

======= Earth-691 (the 31st Century of 616) =======

616 Heroes Time Travel to "the" FUTURE (the Year 3014)

Guardians of the Galaxy Time Travel BACK in Time to Present (616)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542904_5.jpg

"In 3014, Tarin was accidentally SENT BACK to Earth-616's MODERN ERA,
CA/Thing/Sharon Carter accompanied Tarin BACK to her Time,
where they teamed with the Guardians to liberate NYC from the Badoon ...
learning that the Badoon
had staged a failed invasion of Earth in the HEROIC AGE (616)
the Guardians ...
VIA TIME TRAVEL, visited Earth-616's Modern Era, meeting that era's YOUNG Vance"

+++++++ Wow, look at that

Vance is literally Young in 616, signifying the direct link between Time periods,
obviously, the GOTG's 31st Century is a direct FUTURE of 616,
but This Future is labeled 691,
just like Secret Wars Doom was from an unlabeled Future,
just like ALL "possible" FutureS of 616,
are labeled something other than 616. +++++++

"After erasing young Vance's knowledge of the Guardians and their period,
the Guardians returned to the 31st-Century Earth-691"

................................................................................................................

See ... although it's the SAME character (young Vance) from Present (616)
because (adult Vance) is located in the Future, he's from ANOTHER Timeline!

................................................................................................................

Earth 691 - GOTG: (the 31st Century of the 616 Universe)

http://s2d2.turboimagehost.com/t/542946_futurejm5.jpg

"There is a Second that wrestles with Eternity.
A heartbeat forever frozen in the tapestry of Time,
This is such a moment ...

The Year is 3017 A.D in ONE of the MANY Possible Futures of the Multiverse"

.................................................................................................................

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom has and did pwn Galactus on his own with prep. Twice. Annihilus, Tenebrous, Aegis and Thanos together held Galactus prisoner. And Thanos still couldn't figure out the secrets to stripping, transferring or imbuing others with the Power Cosmic. Something Doom figured out years and years ago.
Doom's best prep feats rival and arguably surpass Thanos' best. Doom didn't get an Infinity Well for knowledge. He didn't get Death augmenting him. He didn't get much time either for most of them. He certainly didn't have "allies," as the traditional term is used. Most people do give 616 Doom the feat. Very few even know of the debate Mr. Master and I are having. And up until now, I didn't think it was absolutely conclusive either way. Now, I am 100% sure that it is and always was 616 Dr. Doom.
The same criticism you're using to detract from Doom pwning Galactus in Secret Wars is the same criticism I can lay on Thanos, when he used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order to acquire THOTU. The sword of your logic cuts both-ways. Double-standards don't suit you.
You will. When I get my laptop's power cord back and I'm not restrained from downloading comics. I'm posting from a library at this very moment.
No. It's clear. Secret Wars Dr. Doom was always 616 Dr. Doom. The odd paradox that presents in and of itself is exactly what forced Beyonder's hand in Fantastic Four #288. Ok,Thanos also abandoned his experimentation when he ralized Annihilus' true intentions. Id say its safe to say that Thanos' clones are more impressive than transferring the power cosmic imo. Omega was a more powerful version of Galactus with some defects.

Ok,and? Thanos knew where the gems were. He already previously possessed them and the infinity well helped him out. He has to find out somewhere. He still had to go out and hunt the gems down.

Ok,Thanos used the distraction to gain the hotu. The same hotu that Doom erred in trying to acquire. It seems both men wanted the same thing and only Thanos managed this feat. This is the only time both of these characters were in the same story after the same thing. Thanos got it while Doom didnt.

I gave Dom the feat. I am a generous man. Doom needs it. he stil lost it due to the fact he couldnt handle such raw power. Shame.

OneDumbG0

Mr Master, you haven't answered my question. You obviously have the prescience to understand exactly where it is I am going. But instead of jumping two or three steps ahead and citing secondary and tertiary sources, why don't we deal with the primary on-panel source first. Answer my question, "What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

Quanchi112, the Omega was a failed experiment. You may think it's more impressive than Doom's own success with the Power Cosmic, but I take it with a grain of salt. Thanos could not transfer, isolate or strip the Power Cosmic. Doom did.

I only mentioned the Infinity Well because you criticized Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Well, Thanos possessed the Infinity Gems prior to gaining knowledge from the Infinity Well and had no clue what they were. Do you criticize Thanos for not knowing what they were, prior to his gaining knowledge about them? Certainly not. As such, don't deride Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Double-standards are ugly.

Doom tried to go for Akhenaten's power, not THOTU. Other than that, you've repeated yourself. Thanos gained THOTU, because TOAA gave it to him intentionally and Thanos used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order. Doom successfully acquired Beyonder's power by confronting him directly. Nobody gave Doom that power.

You haven't given me anything. You act as if your argument is stronger because I'm relying on some premise that you are granting me out of generosity. That's ridiculous. You want to weigh in on our debate, go ahead. Don't act as if you're being magnanimous. Past that, as I said before, Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance. That was the first time he really had acquired power on that vast scale. You've already pointed out Thanos could handle THOTU because of his experience with the Infinity Gauntlet. Why you engage in double-standards is beyond me. You've underestimated Doom. Most people do. Doom has achieved more with less and when playing on a cosmic scale, is just as, if not more so impressive. Nuff said. Feel free to share your own opinions as I do mine, just leave the double-standards out of them.

Mr Master

OneDumbG0

Mr Master, I'm going to ask again, "What do you believe is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?" Just answer the question. I'm not intentionally trolling here. I just don't want to put words into your mouth when I go on to tackle your positions. You can already see that I'm backing you into a corner, but it's the easiest corner to end this debate with. So just answer the question, because it's a very fair one.

Otherwise, if you choose to not reply and you've indeed posted your final say, then I will post my final say in a succinct fashion thereafter.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Thanos gained THOTU,
because TOAA gave it to him intentionally
and Thanos used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order.
Actually, Thanos had been prepping to find THOTI since the Infinity Abyss.

Sure, TOAA wanted Thanos to be the one to borrow the supreme power,
but nonetheless, Thanos had to achieve that end on his own.
Which he did.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Doom successfully acquired Beyonder's power by confronting him directly.

Nobody gave Doom that power.
Meh, with a stipulation of course.

Luckily for the future alternate Doom,
Beyonder warped the Concept of Death in the Universe where Battleworld was located,
so that the combatants would be uberly difficult to kill, if at all possible:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/750731_Doom.jpg

"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder.
But Death, we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home/"

erm

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance.
Impossible to prove speculation.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance.Originally posted by Mr Master
Impossible to prove speculation. Do you care to wait until I've posted scans to pass judgment on this? I should get my power cord tomorrow afternoon. I did pay $17.00 for next-day shipping...

... if I don't get it, there'll be hell to pay. mad

kgkg

Thanos , although Thanos did give props to doom

Mr Master

Darn it, I came back in here just to post that last joint,
I see the same bold thingy is still kicking.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Mr Master, I'm going to ask again, "What do you believe is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?" Just answer the question.
I did, and I don't even care anymore.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I'm not intentionally trolling here.
I just don't want to put words into your mouth
when I go on to tackle your positions.
Asking the same question when it's been answered is a bit trollish.

Still, you can tackle all you want, you can post ten essays,
and in the end, as I proved:

In Marvel comics, if you're situated in the future,
then you're from another Timeline, (alternate future) That's it.

No amount of draining lectures will ever change that Marvel fact.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

You can already see that I'm backing you into a corner,
but it's the easiest corner to end this debate with.

So just answer the question, because it's a very fair one.
laughing

.. "backed into a corner?"

You got jokes.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Otherwise, if you choose to not reply and you've indeed posted your final say, then I will post my final say in a succinct fashion thereafter.
Do whatever you want.

You'll never change the fact that everything situated in the Future in Marvel comics,
is located in a separate alternate Timeline. (possible futures .. they're infinite)

So if Secret Wars Doom came from the Future,
then Secret Wars Doom came from another Timeline.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Do you care to wait until I've posted scans to pass judgment on this?
I don't see what scans can make a difference.

Doom never had that kind of power again,
and Doom will never get another chance at that power again, so ...
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

I should get my power cord tomorrow afternoon.
I did pay $17.00 for next-day shipping...

... if I don't get it, there'll be hell to pay.
"power cord?"

What are you running?

I'm more screwed than you are,
I won't have access to KMC for at-least the next two months. scream

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
I did, and I don't even care anymore.

Asking the same question when it's been answered is a bit trollish...

So if Secret Wars Doom came from the Future,
then Secret Wars Doom came from another Timeline. Since you're done, then this post is for people who are still curious or are on the fence about whether 616-Doom should get credit for Secret Wars. There is a clear answer to this. There is no need to look at analogues, comparable scenarios or extricate laws from Marvel time-theory psuedo-science. It's all on-panel, and I will show it to you.

Before that, quick recap of Fantastic Four #288, which takes place years after Secret Wars. 616-Doom, stuck in a civilian's (Norman MacArthur) body summons "the greatest power in the universe." He ends up summoning Beyonder. Reed confronts them and begins berating Doom about Beyonder. Through the course of their conversation, it becomes clear Doom has never met Beyonder before. Beyonder looks past Doom's mortal body and recognizes Doom as the one who bested him though. Beyonder wants to kill him, but Reed says he can't. So what gives?

Mr Master believes that the original Doom in Secret Wars was not 616-Doom, but some random non-existent schlub Doom from the future, e.g. 212-Doom (completely arbitrary #). Since 616-Doom wasn't in his actual body on the day the rest of the heroes and villains were summoned to Battleworld, Beyonder grabbed one from a future. This 212-Doom is then replaced by 616 Doom in FF #288 and 616 Doom inexorably plays out events.

This is untrue. Why? The issue is decided by the answer to this simple, yet crucial, question, "What is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616-Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

As Reed and Beyonder speak of in their conversations, the reason Beyonder can't kill the one mortal who humiliated him was because 616-Doom had yet to play his part in history. If he was killed there, 616-Doom could never go back to Secret Wars, do the things he did and history wouldn't play out like it was supposed to. This would result in the space-time continuum being torn apart, time being destroyed and even Beyonder himself being destroyed.

Now ask yourself this next crucial question... "Why would all that catastrophe happen if there was already a schlub 212-Doom who had acted out those events? Why do we even need 616-Doom? Why would killing 616-Doom in FF #288 do anything except deprive the present of 616-Doom?"

Because there was never a 212-Doom. It was always 616-Doom. That was the paradox. That was why Beyonder could not kill him. If there was some schlub 212-Doom who could adequately play out Secret Wars and keep history intact, 616-Earth wouldn't be in danger of losing it's history. This is clear from the on-panel conversations:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746643_Doom2.jpg

It's exactly as Reed states. The talk of all this "future Doom" is completely relative. "Future Doom" as Mr Master likes to call him, was actually present 616 Doom from FF #288. He's only "future Doom" in that he is existing in a future relative to Secret Wars. 616 Doom never replaced some random 212-Doom. He was only taking his rightful spot in history as the one and only Doom in Secret Wars. As Reed himself clearly states, SW Doom is from: "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to Doctor Doom!"

616 Doom was the first Doom who defeats Beyonder and later on, Beyonder travels to Earth and sends back 616 Doom to do that. Does that cause a chicken-egg-chicken-egg conundrum? Sure. Like all time travel stories we deal with. But can we truly be 100% absolute sure that Reed is saying exactly what I am saying? Yes. Because Reed also states that the sent back 616-Doom will "begin a cycle that will end with the Beyonder banishing him "across time and space," at the conclusion of the first Secret Wars." That's right, 616-Doom is beginning the cycle. 616-Doom didn't just step into a cycle that was already created by a 212-Doom from some random non-existent future:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/746644_Doom3.jpg

It's very simple. It's all on-panel. It's clearly explained by Reed and Beyonder and Dr. Doom. There is no "212-Doom." He is a fiction. Any talk of "212-Doom" leads up to Reed's and Beyonder's revelation that FF #288 Doom was indeed the same Doom in Secret Wars. He couldn't be killed because he had to be sent back to go through history. He goes through it, performs his greatest feat, and is banished at the end of Secret Wars. Where is he banished to? Right to the very room he was sent from. He even begins materializing before Reed finishes explaining everything to the less-than-intelligent She-Hulk:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7867/bpluckedd6iv2.th.jpg

The Beyonder feat is 616-Doom's, Fantastic Four #288 makes that clear. Secret Wars Doom is, and always was, 616-Doom.

Mindset

Why would future Doom have to be from another timeline?

Lord S

Just want to add..."there is no power on Earth, no intellect in all of creation to equal mine"

So swears Doom.

Carry on.

Allankles

Originally posted by Lord S
Just want to add..."there is no power on Earth, no intellect in all of creation to equal mine"

So swears Doom.

Carry on.

BLASPHEMY

basilisk

Just to add some more confusion about alternate timelines, Marvel stated that events in "Marvel Universe: The End" took place in "the Earth-4321 reality", and that "at least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed".

So I guess the events of The End shouldn't even be raised as evidence with the rules about alternate realities, and trying to guess the "extent of the duplication" is conjecture.

Lord S

Originally posted by basilisk
Just to add some more confusion about alternate timelines, Marvel stated that events in "Marvel Universe: The End" took place in "the Earth-4321 reality", and that "at least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed".

So I guess the events of The End shouldn't even be raised as evidence with the rules about alternate realities, and trying to guess the "extent of the duplication" is conjecture. This always seems to be a controversial issue...and I've been on both sides of the fence.

In light of Mr Master's contention that beings from the past or future are actually from another reality...one can conclude that Akhenaten was from Reality-4321, but can challenge the notion that the entire story was out of continuity. I too have read comments made by Marvel editors stating that 'The End' was not canon, but for debating purposes I think everyone here has accepted the event as canon.

I'd like to know what KMC's official position is on this issue. It would clear up the confusion on here as to whether or not we're allowed to use the events of 'The End' as evidence in a debate.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mr Master, you haven't answered my question. You obviously have the prescience to understand exactly where it is I am going. But instead of jumping two or three steps ahead and citing secondary and tertiary sources, why don't we deal with the primary on-panel source first. Answer my question, "What was the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616 Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"

Quanchi112, the Omega was a failed experiment. You may think it's more impressive than Doom's own success with the Power Cosmic, but I take it with a grain of salt. Thanos could not transfer, isolate or strip the Power Cosmic. Doom did.

I only mentioned the Infinity Well because you criticized Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Well, Thanos possessed the Infinity Gems prior to gaining knowledge from the Infinity Well and had no clue what they were. Do you criticize Thanos for not knowing what they were, prior to his gaining knowledge about them? Certainly not. As such, don't deride Doom for not knowing about the Galactus barrier. Double-standards are ugly.

Doom tried to go for Akhenaten's power, not THOTU. Other than that, you've repeated yourself. Thanos gained THOTU, because TOAA gave it to him intentionally and Thanos used the Defenders to distract the Celestial Order. Doom successfully acquired Beyonder's power by confronting him directly. Nobody gave Doom that power.

You haven't given me anything. You act as if your argument is stronger because I'm relying on some premise that you are granting me out of generosity. That's ridiculous. You want to weigh in on our debate, go ahead. Don't act as if you're being magnanimous. Past that, as I said before, Doom could handle Beyonder's power had he a second chance. That was the first time he really had acquired power on that vast scale. You've already pointed out Thanos could handle THOTU because of his experience with the Infinity Gauntlet. Why you engage in double-standards is beyond me. You've underestimated Doom. Most people do. Doom has achieved more with less and when playing on a cosmic scale, is just as, if not more so impressive. Nuff said. Feel free to share your own opinions as I do mine, just leave the double-standards out of them. Omega was an abandoned experiment but one that showed Thanos' ingenius. While Doom can utilize the power cosmic,Thanos can create powerful clones of himself and an even more powerful version of Galactus. Id say thats much better.

Ok,so you want to talk about double standards. Fine,i find it amusing how you want talk about Doom taking Surfer's power cosmic away from him when Surfer willingly gave it to him. Not that impressive when compared to Thanos going out and hunting down the elders one by one. Point Thanos. It isnt like Thanos just convinced them to hand them over,but he to defeat them all in various ways which makes it all that much more impressive.

Doom tried and failed. His plan of attacking Ak directly showed he didnt full understand the situation. He failed. TOAA didnt hand him the power. Thanos still had free will and still took on the power and was imo one of a select few that could handle it.

You keep speculating that Doom could handle it. i dont feel that he could have a second time. Thanos handled the ig and the cosmic cube. He was also able to handle the power in which he sought,while Doom wasnt.

The scans mr m put up with regards to Doom shows how weird the circumstances were with death and all. Doom benefited from this scenario and couldnt have beaten the beyonder in any other situation imo.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's all on-panel, and I will show it to you.
Wonderful, that's the same thing I did, yipee. big grin

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The issue is decided by the answer to this simple, yet crucial, question, "What is the specific reason why Beyonder was prevented from killing 616-Doom in Fantastic Four #288?"
Heh.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

As Reed and Beyonder speak of in their conversations, the reason Beyonder can't kill the one mortal who humiliated him was because 616-Doom had yet to play his part in history. If he was killed there, 616-Doom could never go back to Secret Wars, do the things he did and history wouldn't play out like it was supposed to. This would result in the space-time continuum being torn apart, time being destroyed and even Beyonder himself being destroyed.
Explained.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's exactly as Reed states. The talk of all this "future Doom" is completely relative. "Future Doom" as Mr Master likes to call him, was actually present 616 Doom from FF #288. He's only "future Doom" in that he is existing in a future relative to Secret Wars.
I disagree.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

616 Doom was the first Doom who defeats Beyonder and later on, Beyonder travels to Earth and sends back 616 Doom to do that. Does that cause a chicken-egg-chicken-egg conundrum? Sure. Like all time travel stories we deal with. But can we truly be 100% absolute sure that Reed is saying exactly what I am saying? Yes. Because Reed also states that the sent back 616-Doom will "begin a cycle that will end with the Beyonder banishing him "across time and space," at the conclusion of the first Secret Wars." That's right, 616-Doom is beginning the cycle. 616-Doom didn't just step into a cycle that was already created by a 212-Doom from some random non-existent future:
I disagree.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

It's very simple. It's all on-panel.
It's clearly explained by Reed and Beyonder and Dr. Doom.
There is no "212-Doom." He is a fiction. Any talk of "212-Doom" leads up to Reed's and Beyonder's revelation that FF #288 Doom was indeed the same Doom in Secret Wars. He couldn't be killed because he had to be sent back to go through history. He goes through it, performs his greatest feat, and is banished at the end of Secret Wars.
I disagree.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

The Beyonder feat is 616-Doom's, Fantastic Four #288 makes that clear.
Secret Wars Doom is, and always was, 616-Doom.
I disagree.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Beyonder looks past Doom's mortal body and recognizes Doom as the one who bested him though.
Beyonder wants to kill him, but Reed says he can't. So what gives?
I gave my reasons why.

Last two posts: (and the first post on this page)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=491974&pagenumber=5

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Mr Master believes that the original Doom in Secret Wars was not 616-Doom, but some random non-existent schlub Doom from the future, e.g. 212-Doom (completely arbitrary #). Since 616-Doom wasn't in his actual body on the day the rest of the heroes and villains were summoned to Battleworld, Beyonder grabbed one from a future. This 212-Doom is then replaced by 616 Doom in FF #288 and 616 Doom inexorably plays out events.
That's correct,
but you're lying about me demeaning the abilities of the Future Doom,
if you're gonna shout my name out, be sure and be thorough,
I despise lies perpetrated just to get a virtual nut rub by the invisibles.

In fact, I clearly said:
Originally posted by Mr Master

In the same fashion, Secret Wars Doom, was from an "alternate future"
the trick to understand is, it is 616 Doom ... but NOT technically.
I have never said 616 Doom was incapable of the same feat,
in fact, of course he was, for it is his future-self.

All I've ever presented is the fact that,
at the time of Secret Wars I, that Doom was from an alternate Timeline.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

This is untrue. Why?
It's definitely untrue, I'll tell ya why, cause I never called Future Doom a "schlub"

Future Doom,
like ALL Future-selves of ALL 616 characters,
are exactly the same as their 616 Present-selves.

The only difference, for 616, history is stationed in the Present,
in the entire 616 Universe there is but one planet Earth
in that one planet Earth, it the present day, 2008.

For the Future-self, whether it's a minute or 100 to whatever years into the Future,
in which case let's say it's, 2009, or 2099,
those Time periods apply to a planet Earth,
located in an entire Universe relevant to 2009, or 2099.

Thus another Timeline.

It's cool, once the 616 Universe's planet Earth reaches the year 2009 or 2099,
the Future-Timeline and the 616 Universe diverge into different directions,
thus the Future-Timelne takes off on a History of it's own,
and 616 continues to be the original Timeline.

I presented all the proof in the prior page. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Now ask yourself this next crucial question... "Why would all that catastrophe happen if there was already a schlub 212-Doom who had acted out those events? Why do we even need 616-Doom? Why would killing 616-Doom in FF #288 do anything except deprive the present of 616-Doom?"
Because Future Doom died before the Present he was plucked from was reached. smile

Oh, and you're putting words in my mouth again,
I never demeaned Future Doom's skills.

I don't know where you got this allusion I took em for a schlub,
but let's not get nasty to win over a crowd.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Because there was never a 212-Doom. It was always 616-Doom. That was the paradox. That was why Beyonder could not kill him. If there was some schlub 212-Doom who could adequately play out Secret Wars and keep history intact, 616-Earth wouldn't be in danger of losing it's history. This is clear from the on-panel conversations:
Never called Future Doom a schlub or any other devaluing term,
in fact, I always said it was Doom from the Future,
and like all Marvel comic Futures, it was an alternate-Timeline,
two Universes can not occupy the same Time period,
either you're in the Universe representing 9/19/08,
or you're in the Universe representing 9/19/10-100-infinity.

It's still you're 616 self in the Future though, just technically,
you're Future -self is in another TImeline, why? Cause he's in the Future.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

616 Doom never replaced some random 212-Doom. He was only taking his rightful spot in history as the one and only Doom in Secret Wars. As Reed himself clearly states, SW Doom is from: "Our future -- which has finally become our present! It's this time he came from -- so that events now in our past have yet to happen to Doctor Doom!"
Of course it's Reed's Future, who's else is it gonna be?

It's everyone's Future in 616,
just like 616 & Reed's Future will also be the year 3014 when 616 reaches it,
but, if 616 Reed travels to the year 3014, he'll be entering a different Timeline.

Seem that's the bottom line.

Secret Wars I
(at the time it was the Present)
happened almost a year before #288,
(which was the Future, another Timeline at the time)
so when that year came around, #288
(which was the Future, another Timeline)
became the Present
(the 616 Timeline)

The problem is,
when the Present came around, there was no Secret Wars Doom in existence,
cause he was obliterated at the end of Secret Wars I.

Had Secret Wars Doom stayed alive,
then Timestream would have been in NO danger,
because the instant the Time period Beyonder plucked Doom from arrived,
a divergence would've taken place, a split in Reality
where Secret Wars Doom continues into an separate history in an alternate future,
and where 616 Doom, who was in McArthur's body, continues into 616's direct Future.

This is how the whole deal concerning the Future in Marvel Comics works.

Mr Master

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Where is he banished to? Right to the very room he was sent from. He even begins materializing before Reed finishes explaining everything to the less-than-intelligent She-Hulk
Nah, 616 Doom was banished to the Past, but Beyonder created a circle in time,
so that he would return to this Present,
since this Present was the Future he took took the original Secret Wars Doom from.

Also, you missed the part in that scan where Reed clearly differentiates the two:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/752736_D1.jpg

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/752735_D2.jpg

"The 'BANISHED' Doom may well appear here, now,
to fill the space thus created"

........................................................................................................

Now why do you think Reed labels 616 Doom the "banished" Doom,
insetad of just calling him Doom?

Answer:

Because the original Secret Wars Doom (Future Doom) was obliterated across time & space,
uhh, Reed even states it in the freakin scan,
but the banished Doom (616) never died, in fact, he was never even there originally,
but since he's the template, he can fill in for the original Secret Wars Doom,
play out everything that happened in Secret Wars 1 exactly to the T,
even getting obliterated like the original Secret Wars Doom,
but then like Reed says, to finalize the closing of the circle,
616 Doom (unlike the original Secret Wars Doom who was utterly destroyed)
now has to return to Present, "to fill the space thus created"

What space was that?

The space left by the original Secret Wars Doom (plucked from the Future)
who destroyed before the point from which he was plucked became the Present.

This is why Reed said: "events now in our past, have yet to happen to Doctor Doom"

If it was always Doom 616, then why hasn't he experienced these events?

No need to answer that, I already have. smile

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Omega was an abandoned experiment but one that showed Thanos' ingenius. While Doom can utilize the power cosmic,Thanos can create powerful clones of himself and an even more powerful version of Galactus. Id say thats much better.

Ok,so you want to talk about double standards. Fine,i find it amusing how you want talk about Doom taking Surfer's power cosmic away from him when Surfer willingly gave it to him. Not that impressive when compared to Thanos going out and hunting down the elders one by one. Point Thanos. It isnt like Thanos just convinced them to hand them over,but he to defeat them all in various ways which makes it all that much more impressive.

Doom tried and failed. His plan of attacking Ak directly showed he didnt full understand the situation. He failed. TOAA didnt hand him the power. Thanos still had free will and still took on the power and was imo one of a select few that could handle it.

You keep speculating that Doom could handle it. i dont feel that he could have a second time. Thanos handled the ig and the cosmic cube. He was also able to handle the power in which he sought,while Doom wasnt.

The scans mr m put up with regards to Doom shows how weird the circumstances were with death and all. Doom benefited from this scenario and couldnt have beaten the beyonder in any other situation imo. Splicing such complicated DNA together can surely be thought of as being more complicated than siphoning, isolating or transferring the Power Cosmic. But IMHO, Doom did something that Thanos could not do, no matter how hard he tried. And that was siphoning, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic.

Doom has stolen Silver Surfer's power by force. Silver Surfer willingly gave a Doombot the Power Cosmic in another storyline. You've got the feats mixed up. I didn't use a double-standard.

TOAA gave Thanos the power. There are no ifs, ands or buts about that.

Once my laptop is in order (I just got the power cord today) and I have time this week to download the comic I've been alluding to, I will prove to you that Dr. Doom could handle Beyonder's power, had he a second chance. I don't know why I didn't pull it out for the respect thread I've been creating, but I forgot to. The only power Doom failed to hold onto, was the Beyonder's power. Which is equal to or greater than THOTU. Doom's handled Surfer's power, Galactus' power and the Cosmic Cube. He hasn't had the chance to acquire the Infinity Gauntlet. Although, previews of upcoming comics suggest that he will.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Fantastic Four #288 made it clear that 616 Doom was the only Doom in Secret Wars. Beyonder was prevented from killing Doom then because Doom had yet to partake in Secret Wars in his own linear progression of time. Killing Doom before he could travel back would have destroyed history, the space-time continuum, time itself and destroyed Beyonder. That's why Reed convinced Beyonder not to kill him and that's why it was always 616 Doom. If some schlub 212-Doom had already performed in Secret Wars, there was no reason 616 Doom couldn't have been killed on the spot as revengefor beating him the first time.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is why Reed said: "events now in our past, have yet to happen to Doctor Doom"

If it was always Doom 616, then why hasn't he experienced these events?

No need to answer that, I already have. smile

Regardless of whether you want it, the answer to your question is: Because 616-Doom had yet, in his own linear progression of time, to experience those events. SW Beyonder + SWII Beyonder working together to bring 616-Doom into Secret Wars allowed him to go through those events, Doom's future, Beyodner's past. Hence, time-loop. By closing that time loop, history was preserved and so was the space-time continuum.

If 616 Doom was killed right then and there in that room in FF #288, SWII Beyonder would have destroyed history and thus himself. The reason why history would have been destroyed was because 616 Doom was in Secret Wars. If there were a 212-Doom originally, then history had run it's course with 212-Doom already. There was a Doom there. You didn't need 616-Doom. Thus, there would also be no danger to history or the space-time continuum if SWII Beyonder killed 616-Doom in FF #288. But as we cannot deny, there was a danger to history's events, the space-time continuum if 616-Doom were killed. That danger was present, because 616-Doom had to be sent back so that he could play out his own future, which was already their past. This is stated by Reed in plain black and white. Thus, there was never an alternate Doom.

I explained it for everyone else. You refuse to see it my way, that's fine. You can keep your opinion. I recognize that you base it completely on Marvel's psuedo-science alternate universe theory. But I prefer to base my interpretation on primary evidence; on the plain meaning and presentation of Reed and Beyonder's on-panel conversations and actions in Fantastic Four #288.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Splicing such complicated DNA together can surely be thought of as being more complicated than siphoning, isolating or transferring the Power Cosmic. But IMHO, Doom did something that Thanos could not do, no matter how hard he tried. And that was siphoning, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic.

Doom has stolen Silver Surfer's power by force. Silver Surfer willingly gave a Doombot the Power Cosmic in another storyline. You've got the feats mixed up. I didn't use a double-standard.

TOAA gave Thanos the power. There are no ifs, ands or buts about that.

Once my laptop is in order (I just got the power cord today) and I have time this week to download the comic I've been alluding to, I will prove to you that Dr. Doom could handle Beyonder's power, had he a second chance. I don't know why I didn't pull it out for the respect thread I've been creating, but I forgot to. The only power Doom failed to hold onto, was the Beyonder's power. Which is equal to or greater than THOTU. Doom's handled Surfer's power, Galactus' power and the Cosmic Cube. He hasn't had the chance to acquire the Infinity Gauntlet. Although, previews of upcoming comics suggest that he will.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Fantastic Four #288 made it clear that 616 Doom was the only Doom in Secret Wars. Beyonder was prevented from killing Doom then because Doom had yet to partake in Secret Wars in his own linear progression of time. Killing Doom before he could travel back would have destroyed history, the space-time continuum, time itself and destroyed Beyonder. That's why Reed convinced Beyonder not to kill him and that's why it was always 616 Doom. If some schlub 212-Doom had already performed in Secret Wars, there was no reason 616 Doom couldn't have been killed on the spot as revengefor beating him the first time. Dude,he created a more powerful version of Galactus. Thats better than isolating the power cosmic. Thanos coul dhave b een able to do this as well,but he abandoned his efforts the moment he figured out Annihilus' true intentions. Omega>power cosmic by leaps and bounds. Thanos clones>power cosmic as well imo.

I kniw about the doombot one in the surfer comic. I read the real doom taking Surfer's power and wasnt he tricked due to his naivete at the time into trusting Doom. Im pretty sure he was.

No,Thanos still survived and it wasnt handed to him. Anyway you want to look at it though,Thanos was chosen and not Doom. What does that tell you if you believe the TOAA gave it to him and not Victor.

I dont know where you are getting that the beyonder's power is greater or equal to Thanos' heart of the universe. Anyways,Doom hanlded the power cosmic and Galactus' power which is far less than the ig. Thanos' history consists of him finding these power sources and utilizing them first. Its about time Doom gets his hands on the ig. Thanos has already moved on and acquired the most powerful items in the multiverse imo.

I saw mr m's scans I dont know how your still trying to pass it off as Doom when his scans tell an entirely different story. Again if we do give the feat to Doom,he still isnt in Thanos' league.

godking

Doom would never have been able to get all the infinity gems from the elders of the universe the way thanos did.

The Great Galen

Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation, Thanos was literally handed THOU...althought Ill still give him credit for the IG capture even if everyone else was acting like ****ing idiots.

quanchi112

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation, Thanos was literally handed THOU...althought Ill still give him credit for the IG capture even if everyone else was acting like ****ing idiots. Doom couldnt handle the beyonder's power while Thanos handled and saved the marvel universe. Thanos is well above Doom in terms of prep imo.

Mr Master

Originally posted by quanchi112

Doom couldnt handle the beyonder's power while Thanos handled and saved the marvel universe.
thumb up

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/765990_D1.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/765991_D2.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/765992_D3.jpg

Enyalus

Heh. I don't know if this has already been brought up before, because I've only read pages 1, 2, and 7 of this thread - but Thanos runs constant surveillance on Dr. Doom which Doom is obviously completely unaware of (this is shown, for instance, in Marvel: The End). It doesn't matter, then, each of them have two days prep, a week prep, or a year prep - Thanos' plan will always be superior thanks to his more advanced tech and his insider advantage which his spying gives him.

Thanos wins this, every single time.

On a side note, Mr. M debates the coolest way possible - with lots and lots of scannage. big grin

Mr Master

Originally posted by The Great Galen

Doom gained his power in secret wars through sheer planning and preperation
Doom accomplished his feat, because he was surrounded by stipulations.

1. The reason he didn't die after his battle with the Beyonder,
is cause the Concept of Death was warped on Battleworld:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/750731_Doom.jpg

"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder.
But Death,
we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home"

...........................................................................

2. The reason Doom is able to get close to the Beyonder in this stomped state,
is cause Beyonder was intricately studying his body with its torn limbs:

(I mean he's being dissected, half his body is being peeled by layers,
he was already missing one arm, one leg, other forearm, other chin)

Yet, he's still alive? ... laughing out loud

... like I said, surrounded by stipulations.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766115_Do1.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766116_Do2.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766159_Do4.jpghttp://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766117_Do3.jpg

...........................................................................

3.We later learn from Beyonder's own mouth,
he was actually trying to help Doom at this point,
this is when Doom pulled out this monster PIS feat.
Originally posted by The Great Galen

Thanos was literally handed THOU
That's literally not true.

quanchi112

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doom accomplished his feat, because he was surrounded by stipulations.

1. The reason he didn't die after his battle with the Beyonder,
is cause the Concept of Death was warped on Battleworld:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/750731_Doom.jpg

"Doom only barely survived that battle with the Beyonder.
But Death,
we had already learned was NOT the same force in that realm
as it had been at home/"

...........................................................................

2. The reason Doom is able to get close to the Beyonder in this stomped state,
is cause Beyonder was intricately studying his body with its torn limbs:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766115_Do1.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766116_Do2.jpg http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766117_Do3.jpg

3.We later learn from Beyonder's own mouth,
he was actually trying to help Doom at this point,
this is when Doom pulled out this monster PIS feat.

That's literally not true. thumb up

Right back at cha.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Enyalus

Thanos runs constant surveillance on Dr. Doom
which Doom is obviously completely unaware of
(this is shown, for instance, in Marvel: The End).

It doesn't matter, then,
each of them have two days prep, a week prep, or a year prep -
Thanos' plan will always be superior thanks to his more advanced tech
and his insider advantage which his spying gives him.
thumb up

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766232_DT1.jpg

Thanos watching Doom spy on Akhenaten:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766233_DT2.jpg

Doom notices Thanos's cam spying on Akhenaten,
Doom doesn't know who it belongs to,
but he does know it's more sophisticated than his tech:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766234_DT3.jpg
Originally posted by Enyalus

Thanos wins this, every single time.
I agree.

I also went over my Secret Wars I issues where Doom acquires the power,
Doom never had any relevant control,
he had to continuously concentrate on containing the energies,
imo, that's a very uncomfortable predicament of Godhood.
Originally posted by Enyalus

On a side note,

Mr. M debates the coolest way possible - with lots and lots of scannage.
cool

Bad Ash231

Originally posted by Mr Master
Doom notices Thanos's cam spying on Akhenaten,
Doom doesn't know who it belongs to,
but he does know it's more sophisticated than his tech:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/766234_DT3.jpg

So... Doom sees another miniature spy camera and thinks it's more sophisticated, why? Because it doesn't have fins on it?

Bentley

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So... Doom sees another miniature spy camera and thinks it's more sophisticated, why? Because it doesn't have fins on it?

It ran on windows vista without lagging.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Dude,he created a more powerful version of Galactus. Thats better than isolating the power cosmic. Thanos coul dhave b een able to do this as well,but he abandoned his efforts the moment he figured out Annihilus' true intentions. Omega>power cosmic by leaps and bounds. Thanos clones>power cosmic as well imo.

I kniw about the doombot one in the surfer comic. I read the real doom taking Surfer's power and wasnt he tricked due to his naivete at the time into trusting Doom. Im pretty sure he was.

No,Thanos still survived and it wasnt handed to him. Anyway you want to look at it though,Thanos was chosen and not Doom. What does that tell you if you believe the TOAA gave it to him and not Victor.

I dont know where you are getting that the beyonder's power is greater or equal to Thanos' heart of the universe. Anyways,Doom hanlded the power cosmic and Galactus' power which is far less than the ig. Thanos' history consists of him finding these power sources and utilizing them first. Its about time Doom gets his hands on the ig. Thanos has already moved on and acquired the most powerful items in the multiverse imo.

I saw mr m's scans I dont know how your still trying to pass it off as Doom when his scans tell an entirely different story. Again if we do give the feat to Doom,he still isnt in Thanos' league. Quanchi112, don't be ridiculous. Your double-standards and wilful ignorance in this thread is nauseating. Go ahead and rest your laurels on creating Omega. Doom never tried to create a Galactus clone. We don't know if he'd succeed or not. What we do know is Doom has: 1) humbled Galactus twice, whereas Thanos got curbstomped; and 2) Doom succeeded in stripping, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic, whereas Thanos with better tech, more time and help, completely failed. Thanos specifically tried to strip, isolate and transfer the Power Cosmic and could only make a Galactus Cannon. He stopped his attempts because he continually failed for weeks, it had nothing to do with Annihilus' betrayal. Reread Annihilation over again. In the end, you choose to weigh 1 success by Thanos in an area where Doom hasn't even attempted over 2 successes by Doom where Thanos completely falls short? Your cup of tea, but it's pathetic, ignorant logic.

Silver Surfer never gave Doom his power. Doom stole it from him.

Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. He himself states this. Ignoring that basic truth of the story makes any further argumentation of yours moot.

Most, if not nearly all posters believe that pre-retcon Beyonder is equal to or superior to THOTU. Go to the Beyonder vs THOTU threads. Don't waste my time by feigning further ignorance.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Just because Mr Master weighed in, left and said he didn't care and then quad posted again in response to my posts means nothing. He is utterly wrong. It's plain as day in the full page scan I posted. Reed explains it. I don't cut up pages to interrupt the panel flow of a conversation that takes you step-by-step as to why SWII Beyonder couldn't kill 616-Doom (who hadn't met him yet) because it would have destroyed history, time and Beyonder. You're ignoring the clear, plain presentation of that and hiding behind a wrong theory because I've put you in that corner and you can't concede this simple point: "When Doom plays on the cosmic scale, he is arguably equal to or superior to Thanos in terms of pure feats."

You underestimated Doom. Most people make that mistake. Nothing to get in a twist about. But you did. Just move on. Nuff said.

basilisk

Originally posted by Bad Ash231
So... Doom sees another miniature spy camera and thinks it's more sophisticated, why? Because it doesn't have fins on it?

If Thanos had really sophisticated spy tech Doom wouldn't have even spotted it. I mean Thanos has his pick of some of the most advanced alien tech from all over the universe and that's the best spy device he can come up with? I could buy him a less obvious kit on the internet. OK maybe it wouldn't fly.

I'm not sure any of it matters anyway since Marvel specifically stated this all this and Thanos getting the HOTI happened on Earth-4321 and not Earth-616.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Quanchi112, don't be ridiculous. Your double-standards and wilful ignorance in this thread is nauseating. Go ahead and rest your laurels on creating Omega. Doom never tried to create a Galactus clone. We don't know if he'd succeed or not. What we do know is Doom has: 1) humbled Galactus twice, whereas Thanos got curbstomped; and 2) Doom succeeded in stripping, isolating and transferring the Power Cosmic, whereas Thanos with better tech, more time and help, completely failed. Thanos specifically tried to strip, isolate and transfer the Power Cosmic and could only make a Galactus Cannon. He stopped his attempts because he continually failed for weeks, it had nothing to do with Annihilus' betrayal. Reread Annihilation over again. In the end, you choose to weigh 1 success by Thanos in an area where Doom hasn't even attempted over 2 successes by Doom where Thanos completely falls short? Your cup of tea, but it's pathetic, ignorant logic.

Silver Surfer never gave Doom his power. Doom stole it from him.

Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. He himself states this. Ignoring that basic truth of the story makes any further argumentation of yours moot.

Most, if not nearly all posters believe that pre-retcon Beyonder is equal to or superior to THOTU. Go to the Beyonder vs THOTU threads. Don't waste my time by feigning further ignorance.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Just because Mr Master weighed in, left and said he didn't care and then quad posted again in response to my posts means nothing. He is utterly wrong. It's plain as day in the full page scan I posted. Reed explains it. I don't cut up pages to interrupt the panel flow of a conversation that takes you step-by-step as to why SWII Beyonder couldn't kill 616-Doom (who hadn't met him yet) because it would have destroyed history, time and Beyonder. You're ignoring the clear, plain presentation of that and hiding behind a wrong theory because I've put you in that corner and you can't concede this simple point: "When Doom plays on the cosmic scale, he is arguably equal to or superior to Thanos in terms of pure feats."

You underestimated Doom. Most people make that mistake. Nothing to get in a twist about. But you did. Just move on. Nuff said. You keep harping about creating the power cosmic. Big deal the Thanos clones are much more impressive than the power cosmic imo and a lot more powerful.

1)Doom couldnt beat Galactus on his own or outside the circumstances of secret wars. Hell,we he was lucky as shit to take on the beyonder's power which he couldnt handle by the way. Thanos had Galactus captured when he wanted this done. He also saved Galactus. If you really think that with all of Thanos' resources and such that he couldnt take down Galactus thats on you.

2)Thanos abandoned the project when he found out Annihilus' intentions. It seems like you are trying to base this entirely off this. Thanos was still working on it and then was killed after he found out about the betrayal. If he was still on it who knows when he would have discovered how to isolate. Its anyone's guess.

I seem to recall deception being involved with Doom's taking of Surfer's power cosmic. I havent read that in years though so I could be wrong about that.

The heart was meant for Thanos but he still had to take action and because of his history he could adapt to it and could fix the wrongs and save the universe. Doom's plan was total and utter failure. You know it and I know it. Thanos>>Doom. Just accept it.

Who says its superior and whats that based on? Thanos handled the power while Doom couldnt. Fact. Thanos didnt need another time to adjust to any of his artifacts.

Thats between you and mr master. I have seen his scans and his argument makes more sense that yours imo. Thats it. You havent convinced me. You seem to really like Doom and are trying really hard to make this closer than it is. Thats fine by me as we all have our own personal biases,but this isnt close imo nor in most others.

Thanos is and always has been a lot greater than Doom.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
You keep harping about creating the power cosmic. Big deal the Thanos clones are much more impressive than the power cosmic imo and a lot more powerful.

1)Doom couldnt beat Galactus on his own or outside the circumstances of secret wars. Hell,we he was lucky as shit to take on the beyonder's power which he couldnt handle by the way. Thanos had Galactus captured when he wanted this done. He also saved Galactus. If you really think that with all of Thanos' resources and such that he couldnt take down Galactus thats on you.Translation: "Thanos deserves more props for siccing Tenebrous and Aegis on Galactus. Doom deserves less because he beat Galactus and Beyonder on his own with the element of surprise and prep, which I, Quanchi112, have decided to call "plot device." Thanos could never take down Galactus. Galactus craps on Thanos, literally. And Doom has humbled Galactus twice.
Originally posted by quanchi112
2)Thanos abandoned the project when he found out Annihilus' intentions. It seems like you are trying to base this entirely off this. Thanos was still working on it and then was killed after he found out about the betrayal. If he was still on it who knows when he would have discovered how to isolate. Its anyone's guess.Thanos failed. He couldn't figure it out. His own words. He had stopped working on unlocking the secrets of the Power Cosmic well before Thanos discovered Annihilus' betrayal. Get the sequence of events straight. Anybody who has read Annihilation knows this.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I seem to recall deception being involved with Doom's taking of Surfer's power cosmic. I havent read that in years though so I could be wrong about that.You're right. You are wrong. But I find it amusing how you believe "deception" invalidates a feat. As I recall, Thanos pretty much deceived every single Elder to gain the Infinity Gems save for Gardener and Runner. Nice double-standard.
Originally posted by quanchi112
The heart was meant for Thanos but he still had to take action and because of his history he could adapt to it and could fix the wrongs and save the universe. Doom's plan was total and utter failure. You know it and I know it. Thanos>>Doom. Just accept it.Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. It's not up for discussion. If TOAA decides you ought to have something, there is no victory or failure involved, it just is.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Who says its superior and whats that based on? Thanos handled the power while Doom couldnt. Fact. Thanos didnt need another time to adjust to any of his artifacts. Superior or equal. Read the threads. They speaks for themselves and so do the people in the thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489442&highlight=title%3A(thotu)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=460217&pagenumber=13

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=474848&pagenumber=7

Thanos graduated to handling "infinite power" through experience. He gave up the Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet because of his subconscious. Doom lost infinite power because he couldn't mentally handle it. Thanos lost infinite power because in his soul, he knew he wasn't worthy of it. In three separate instances, Thanos couldn't handle infinite power. He managed to hold onto THOTU, but of course, ended up being the butt of a cosmic joke. Doom held onto the Cosmic Cube (unlike Thanos), but couldn't control Beyonder's power. He could handle it a second time. You don't have to believe it until I prove it. But once I do, and once Doom captures the Infinity Gauntlet, we'll see who ends up looking superior when it comes to infinite power.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Thats between you and mr master. I have seen his scans and his argument makes more sense that yours imo. Thats it. You havent convinced me. You seem to really like Doom and are trying really hard to make this closer than it is. Thats fine by me as we all have our own personal biases,but this isnt close imo nor in most others.

Thanos is and always has been a lot greater than Doom. That debate is over. It is sooooo done. Wanna hide behind incorrect assertions that fly in the face of on-panel proof? Or do you want to discuss it? Pfft. It's supremely obvious you wouldn't dare participating in that debate because you know it's a complete loser. Good tactical decision to be sure, but it's painfully obvious why you won't even discuss it. You'd get stomped.

That's your opinion. But you think Thanos is greater than everyone. But you needed to be reminded that Doom figured out the Power Cosmic, whereas Thanos couldn't. Doom's humbled Galactus twice, whereas Galactus has crapped on Thanos. Doom's gained pre-retcon Beyonder's infinite power through his prep and sheer will, whereas Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. Doom has humbled his greatest nemesis several times, whereas Thanos never has. Doom has achieved all his personal goals by his own effort, whereas Death finally decided to let Thanos get some pity-love. And even after being reminded of all that, you haven't budged from your stance one bit. That's not an informed opinion, that's ignorant fanboyism.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Translation: "Thanos deserves more props for siccing Tenebrous and Aegis on Galactus. Doom deserves less because he beat Galactus and Beyonder on his own with the element of surprise and prep, which I, Quanchi112, have decided to call "plot device." Thanos could never take down Galactus. Galactus craps on Thanos, literally. And Doom has humbled Galactus twice.
Thanos failed. He couldn't figure it out. His own words. He had stopped working on unlocking the secrets of the Power Cosmic well before Thanos discovered Annihilus' betrayal. Get the sequence of events straight. Anybody who has read Annihilation knows this.
You're right. You are wrong. But I find it amusing how you believe "deception" invalidates a feat. As I recall, Thanos pretty much deceived every single Elder to gain the Infinity Gems save for Gardener and Runner. Nice double-standard.
Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. It's not up for discussion. If TOAA decides you ought to have something, there is no victory or failure involved, it just is.
Superior or equal. Read the threads. They speaks for themselves and so do the people in the thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489442&highlight=title%3A(thotu)

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=460217&pagenumber=13

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=474848&pagenumber=7

Thanos graduated to handling "infinite power" through experience. He gave up the Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet because of his subconscious. Doom lost infinite power because he couldn't mentally handle it. Thanos lost infinite power because in his soul, he knew he wasn't worthy of it. In three separate instances, Thanos couldn't handle infinite power. He managed to hold onto THOTU, but of course, ended up being the butt of a cosmic joke. Doom held onto the Cosmic Cube (unlike Thanos), but couldn't control Beyonder's power. He could handle it a second time. You don't have to believe it until I prove it. But once I do, and once Doom captures the Infinity Gauntlet, we'll see who ends up looking superior when it comes to infinite power.
That debate is over. It is sooooo done. Wanna hide behind incorrect assertions that fly in the face of on-panel proof? Or do you want to discuss it? Pfft. It's supremely obvious you wouldn't dare participating in that debate because you know it's a complete loser. Good tactical decision to be sure, but it's painfully obvious why you won't even discuss it. You'd get stomped.

That's your opinion. But you think Thanos is greater than everyone. But you needed to be reminded that Doom figured out the Power Cosmic, whereas Thanos couldn't. Doom's humbled Galactus twice, whereas Galactus has crapped on Thanos. Doom's gained pre-retcon Beyonder's infinite power through his prep and sheer will, whereas Thanos was given THOTU by TOAA. Doom has humbled his greatest nemesis several times, whereas Thanos never has. Doom has achieved all his personal goals by his own effort, whereas Death finally decided to let Thanos get some pity-love. And even after being reminded of all that, you haven't budged from your stance one bit. That's not an informed opinion, that's ignorant fanboyism. The point is that Doom couldnt just defeat Galactus in a normal situation outside secret wars and the circumstances involved. You keep obsessing over the power cosmic like its the end all be all factor in this debate. Lets say Thanos had been at it for years in attempting to to learn the secrets of the power cosmic and failed. Does that prove that Doom is better than Thanos? Does that decide this on its own? Should we ignore the rest of their entire histories and focus on this one thing?

But lets go over the events as they unfolded in annihilation shall we.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/A-SS-04-015.jpg

Here,Thanos reminds Annihilus all the things made possible by Thanos' involvement in this war.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation2-019.jpg

More scans.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation2-020.jpg

The answer.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation3-011.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation3-012.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation4-005.jpg

Afterwards,Thanos checked in with Moondragon's aid to find out what Ammihilus' true intentions were. Lets just say there was supposed to be a reckoning until Drax interfered.

Same result had Thanos released Galactus as the Surfer had not Drax interfered.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation6-005-1.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Annihilation6-006-007-1.jpg

Have any scans of the sequence of events that led up to Doom gaining Surfer's power?

Thanos deceives characters as well as Doom. It call counts but please during marvel's the end Thanos' own tech was simply more advanced and was actually spying on Doom himself. He had no clue it was Thanos. Doom's plan failed and stunk and I have already given you a scan with Thanos' own opinion on why Doom failed in this regard.

If TOAA decided the heart was meant for Thanos it was because of his history and that he was the best man for the job which he was. Doom was in the same exact story and he wasnt chosen. Thanos is just the better man while most here clearly see including yourself. You just want to defend Doom here for whatever reason.

Ok,heres a hint for you. No matter who gains ultimate power in whatever story that they find themselves in they will always lose in the end. They wont own the 616 universe for all-time. Thats not the way things work. Cling to Thanos' subconscious defeats. At least he could wield such power. No one was ever good enough to beat him without it or take it from him. He could always handle it and adapt to whatever power source he sought and achieved.

Quit telling me how you are going to prove it. Just prove it. Again,Thanos is always the first to achieve these powerups and then he moves on to something greater. Before his death he wasnt motivated by amping himself as he had in the past ,but Doom is still out there because he wants to achieve what Thanos has achieved. I cant blame him. He has to go down that road on his own. Thanos has already been there. Its really humorous for you to tell me to wait and see how Doom handles the ig. Thanos was the first to gain the ig and he isnt out there to reacquire it. But you just keep waiting. Thats the only thing you can say is wait and see what Doom has in store for us because currently this is all Thanos.

Lets ignore the fact that the Beyonder had Doom literally broken on panel and came to examine his body and thats when Doom struck. He benefited from unique circumstances with death seemingly absent fromt his battlefield. Yippee for Doom. He later had this power TAKEN from him.

The whole heart vs. Beyonder thread is another debate in and of itself. If youd like to go that route bump the thread. Dont put up links. Bump it if you wish.

Again,I have given you my opinion on this and it seems mr master has beaten you. Thats between the two of you. K. You seem to have a strong love for Doom which is understandable,but his argument is one in which seems to be the correct one imo.

Doom hasnt humbled Galactus under his own power so please,quit bringing it up. Thanos has saved Galactus and this whole reality from the hunger an interdimensional parasite Galactus himself unleashed. Keep at it you wont win. You begrudgingly gave this to Thanos. Sorry,but you agree with me on the outcome and disagree that its a stomp in Thanos favor. Doom also lost Beyonder's power while Thanos has never proven unable to handle a power source. Doom hasnt killed his nemesis but Thanos has. Thanos' personal nemesis is someone who usually leads the universe in times of crisis while Reed Richards is just a roleplayer. Just letting you in. When has Warlock ever taken a backseat in a story with Reed Richards in it?

Its funny you call me an ignorant fanboy when you yourself are arguing for Doom here simply because you are a fanboy. I mean you agree Thanos takes this,but since you love him so feel it necessary to continue with me even when you know he isnt Thanos or up to his standards.

Thanos wins as you agree,but its a stomp friend.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is that Doom couldnt just defeat Galactus in a normal situation outside secret wars and the circumstances involved. You keep obsessing over the power cosmic like its the end all be all factor in this debate. Lets say Thanos had been at it for years in attempting to to learn the secrets of the power cosmic and failed. Does that prove that Doom is better than Thanos? Does that decide this on its own? Should we ignore the rest of their entire histories and focus on this one thing?What the hell are you babbling about? Thanos and Doom play on two different fields entirely. Everytime Doom has embarked on the cosmic scale, he's done arguably better. So what else do we have other than direct comparisons? They have both tried to unlock the secrets of the Power Cosmic and strip, harness and imbue it. Thanos tried and failed. He had to have Galactus hooked up to a machine. Doom needed no such thing as he threw together a machine capable of directly stripping it from Heralds and even Galactus himself. It's not the end-all-be-all of this debate, but it's absolutely applicable in showing you that Thanos is not the absolute greatest in everything, nor does he even really dominate Doom in all areas.
Originally posted by quanchi112
But lets go over the events as they unfolded in annihilation shall we...

Afterwards, Thanos checked in with Moondragon's aid to find out what Ammihilus' true intentions were. Lets just say there was supposed to be a reckoning until Drax interfered.

Same result had Thanos released Galactus as the Surfer had not Drax interfered...Yeah, and all those scans illustrate exactly what I said. Thanos could only resort to sticking cables into Galactus and couldn't separate the Power Cosmic from either him or his Heralds ever since he first started trying in Annihilation: Silver Surfer. Weeks and weeks of study and that was the best he could do in Annihilation #3. Annihilus' betrayal occurred in Annihilation #4. Thanos' discovery of Annilus' betrayal had nothing to do with Thanos' continued failure.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Have any scans of the sequence of events that led up to Doom gaining Surfer's power?

Thanos deceives characters as well as Doom. It call counts but please during marvel's the end Thanos' own tech was simply more advanced and was actually spying on Doom himself. He had no clue it was Thanos. Doom's plan failed and stunk and I have already given you a scan with Thanos' own opinion on why Doom failed in this regard. http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomPowerCosmic0157.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomPowerCosmic0257.jpg

Thanos also had no idea he was being spied on by Magus. And yet, Magus had no idea he was being spied on by Dr. Doom. See how your simplistic logic fails when you add nuance?
Originally posted by quanchi112
If TOAA decided the heart was meant for Thanos it was because of his history and that he was the best man for the job which he was. Doom was in the same exact story and he wasnt chosen. Thanos is just the better man while most here clearly see including yourself. You just want to defend Doom here for whatever reason.You merely assume Thanos was the best job. Fact is, Thanos was the most likely to fall into the trap that TOAA set, as stated by Thanos himself:

http://img1.putfile.com/main/3/6315491037.jpg

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok,heres a hint for you. No matter who gains ultimate power in whatever story that they find themselves in they will always lose in the end. They wont own the 616 universe for all-time. Thats not the way things work. Cling to Thanos' subconscious defeats. At least he could wield such power. No one was ever good enough to beat him without it or take it from him. He could always handle it and adapt to whatever power source he sought and achieved.I'm not clinging to anything. Thanos has always lost infinite power. So has Doom. So why do you continually detract from Doom? Thanos was so foolish with his own power, knew he was so acutely unworthy of it, that he's allowed Nebula to strip him of it.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Quit telling me how you are going to prove it. Just prove it. Again,Thanos is always the first to achieve these powerups and then he moves on to something greater. Before his death he wasnt motivated by amping himself as he had in the past ,but Doom is still out there because he wants to achieve what Thanos has achieved. I cant blame him. He has to go down that road on his own. Thanos has already been there. Its really humorous for you to tell me to wait and see how Doom handles the ig. Thanos was the first to gain the ig and he isnt out there to reacquire it. But you just keep waiting. Thats the only thing you can say is wait and see what Doom has in store for us because currently this is all Thanos.Read Fantastic Four #319 if you have access. I don't currently. I just moved and my laptop's wireless card can't get past 1 kbs. I can't download it. Doom, the Cube Beings and Molecule Man have a conversation. Doom insists that he poses no danger since he couldn't control Beyonder's power. Beyonder looks into Doom's heart and sees that this was true, but Molecule Man interposes stating that should Doom regain it, he would control it. The Cube Beings agree and Doom reluctantly admits he was counting on that as well. Thus, Doom is foiled. You don't have to believe me, but I'm pretty sure that's the issue # and that was the conversation. I'll prove it when I get access to the comic.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Lets ignore the fact that the Beyonder had Doom literally broken on panel and came to examine his body and thats when Doom struck. He benefited from unique circumstances with death seemingly absent fromt his battlefield. Yippee for Doom. He later had this power TAKEN from him.... by Beyonder.
Originally posted by quanchi112
The whole heart vs. Beyonder thread is another debate in and of itself. If youd like to go that route bump the thread. Dont put up links. Bump it if you wish.I don't need to, the opinions are quite clear. Mr. Master even agrees that Beyonder is either equal to or more powerful than THOTU:
Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, Beyonder was more impressive if we detail out all the facts,
but nevertheless,
since Thanos became the Supreme Being below the true OAA.

The battle is a stalemate,

God vs God = stalemate. Ha ha. And on that topic...
Originally posted by Quanchi112
Again,I have given you my opinion on this and it seems mr master has beaten you. Thats between the two of you. K. You seem to have a strong love for Doom which is understandable,but his argument is one in which seems to be the correct one imo. You can't even explain in your own words what Mr Master's position is in three sentences or less. Please. I've only been pointing out where you've underestimated Doom. You continue to equivocate, hide behind other people, blind yourself to the obvious, use double-standards and self-serving logic just to preserve your ultimate vision of Thanos as the greatest character ever. Don't project your own intentions onto me. I participate in threads for specific reasons. Just because I can back up what I say, expose your self-serving logic and counter you on every single new avenue you want to open doesn't mean that I do this for some homoerotic love for a comic book character. Either way, you've been accused of a lot worse.
Originally posted by Quanchi112
Doom hasnt humbled Galactus under his own power so please,quit bringing it up. Thanos has saved Galactus and this whole reality from the hunger an interdimensional parasite Galactus himself unleashed. Keep at it you wont win. You begrudgingly gave this to Thanos. Sorry,but you agree with me on the outcome and disagree that its a stomp in Thanos favor. Doom also lost Beyonder's power while Thanos has never proven unable to handle a power source. Doom hasnt killed his nemesis but Thanos has. Thanos' personal nemesis is someone who usually leads the universe in times of crisis while Reed Richards is just a roleplayer. Just letting you in. When has Warlock ever taken a backseat in a story with Reed Richards in it?Thanos has neither humbled, nor saved Galactus under his own power, IIRC. He didn't even obtain most of the Infinity Gems under his own power. Your double-standards are nauseating.
Originally posted by Quanchi112
Its funny you call me an ignorant fanboy when you yourself are arguing for Doom here simply because you are a fanboy. I mean you agree Thanos takes this,but since you love him so feel it necessary to continue with me even when you know he isnt Thanos or up to his standards.

Thanos wins as you agree,but its a stomp friend. I'm pointing out your double-standards. This has never been about Doom > Thanos. That question was answered several pages ago. You just won't stop and because you couldn't stomach the possibility that Thanos isn't as superior to Doom as you had supposed because of your ignorance, you ended up raising, dropping and then avoiding points, using double-standards and citing completely debunked myths. In prep, nobody stomps Doom. Mephisto, Marvel Earth, Galactus and Beyonder know that. And Doom didn't need an Infinity Well, augmentation from Death, gifts from TOAA or Tenebrous and Aegis to do his thing. Nuff said.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What the hell are you babbling about? Thanos and Doom play on two different fields entirely. Everytime Doom has embarked on the cosmic scale, he's done arguably better. So what else do we have other than direct comparisons? They have both tried to unlock the secrets of the Power Cosmic and strip, harness and imbue it. Thanos tried and failed. He had to have Galactus hooked up to a machine. Doom needed no such thing as he threw together a machine capable of directly stripping it from Heralds and even Galactus himself. It's not the end-all-be-all of this debate, but it's absolutely applicable in showing you that Thanos is not the absolute greatest in everything, nor does he even really dominate Doom in all areas.
Yeah, and all those scans illustrate exactly what I said. Thanos could only resort to sticking cables into Galactus and couldn't separate the Power Cosmic from either him or his Heralds ever since he first started trying in Annihilation: Silver Surfer. Weeks and weeks of study and that was the best he could do in Annihilation #3. Annihilus' betrayal occurred in Annihilation #4. Thanos' discovery of Annilus' betrayal had nothing to do with Thanos' continued failure.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomPowerCosmic0157.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Doom%20Fights/DoomPowerCosmic0257.jpg

Thanos also had no idea he was being spied on by Magus. And yet, Magus had no idea he was being spied on by Dr. Doom. See how your simplistic logic fails when you add nuance?
You merely assume Thanos was the best job. Fact is, Thanos was the most likely to fall into the trap that TOAA set, as stated by Thanos himself:

http://img1.putfile.com/main/3/6315491037.jpg So,you are still clinging to the power cosmic thing. Cant you get over this? But I really fail to see how awesome this feat is? Thanos abandoned this the moment he found out Annihilus' true intentions. Once he found out he was set to free Galactus. Enter Drax. Ok,during the infinity war Doom was close but no cigar. Thanos ending up being a major player along with Warlock and a host of others in defeating the Magus while Doom had been taken out of the picture long ago.

Ok,Thanos discovered what the power cosmic was and why it was different with each user. He was still about his business until he found out through Moondragon Annihilus' secret intentions. He never said he would never be able to achieve this,did he? You made it sound like Thanos admitted that he could never achieve this and that no amount of time could help him. Thats the spin you put on it.

Doom was an unknown player in infinity war. Thats how insignificant he was in the grand scheme of things. Doom used that to his advantage. He still failed miserably and was also being aided by Kang. Who did Magus create a doppleganger to be his right hand man? Was it Doom or was it Thanos? Ah,its ok you cant win this. You like Doom a lot and dont want to admit how much better Thanos is with prep than Doom is. I got that part.

I do believe Thanos was the best man for the job. The only other character I can see achieving this is Warlock not Doom. Being tricked by the TOAA is nothing to be ashamed of by the way. Thanos healed the universe and fixed the flaw. At the same time he continued to exist with a few life-assuring wishes being fulfilled at the same time.

Doom tricked the Surfer and took his power cosmic. He took advantage of his naivete. Not that impressive imo.

quanchi112

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm not clinging to anything. Thanos has always lost infinite power. So has Doom. So why do you continually detract from Doom? Thanos was so foolish with his own power, knew he was so acutely unworthy of it, that he's allowed Nebula to strip him of it.
Read Fantastic Four #319 if you have access. I don't currently. I just moved and my laptop's wireless card can't get past 1 kbs. I can't download it. Doom, the Cube Beings and Molecule Man have a conversation. Doom insists that he poses no danger since he couldn't control Beyonder's power. Beyonder looks into Doom's heart and sees that this was true, but Molecule Man interposes stating that should Doom regain it, he would control it. The Cube Beings agree and Doom reluctantly admits he was counting on that as well. Thus, Doom is foiled. You don't have to believe me, but I'm pretty sure that's the issue # and that was the conversation. I'll prove it when I get access to the comic.
... by Beyonder.
I don't need to, the opinions are quite clear. Mr. Master even agrees that Beyonder is either equal to or more powerful than THOTU:
Ha ha. And on that topic...
You can't even explain in your own words what Mr Master's position is in three sentences or less. Please. I've only been pointing out where you've underestimated Doom. You continue to equivocate, hide behind other people, blind yourself to the obvious, use double-standards and self-serving logic just to preserve your ultimate vision of Thanos as the greatest character ever. Don't project your own intentions onto me. I participate in threads for specific reasons. Just because I can back up what I say, expose your self-serving logic and counter you on every single new avenue you want to open doesn't mean that I do this for some homoerotic love for a comic book character. Either way, you've been accused of a lot worse.
Thanos has neither humbled, nor saved Galactus under his own power, IIRC. He didn't even obtain most of the Infinity Gems under his own power. Your double-standards are nauseating.
I'm pointing out your double-standards. This has never been about Doom > Thanos. That question was answered several pages ago. You just won't stop and because you couldn't stomach the possibility that Thanos isn't as superior to Doom as you had supposed because of your ignorance, you ended up raising, dropping and then avoiding points, using double-standards and citing completely debunked myths. In prep, nobody stomps Doom. Mephisto, Marvel Earth, Galactus and Beyonder know that. And Doom didn't need an Infinity Well, augmentation from Death, gifts from TOAA or Tenebrous and Aegis to do his thing. Nuff said. I know for the sake of the story and comic books in general that the bad guy has to lose at some point in this story. The bad guy cant rule the universe forever. Its just the manner in which both have lost it sends me a message. Thanos never lost control of his power because of an inability to hold or wield it. Doom has. Thanos' subconscious betrayed him both in the cosmic cube story and in the ig. In marvel's the end there was no way out. The universe needed saving and Thanos had to save it. He didnt relinquish the power,but instead did what needed to be done.

Ok,but hasnt the Beyonder been retconned making him nowhere near as powerful as the heart. Regardless of who you feel is more powerful it doesnt matter because one has been retconned an done hasnt. wink

Do you want me to explain his position to you? Would you like me to join that debate as well?

Now you go on a long rant to supposedly show off your internet muscles. Really,you are making this personal. I am only giving you my opinion and you actually insult me by saying I have a homoerotic love for Thanos. laughing out loud

Uhm Thanos set in motion events to take out the Hunger saving himself,Galactus,and possibly all of 616 reality. You post laughable scans where he convinces the Surfer to stare at something which puts him in a trance to put his machines over him to rob him of his power cosmic. Wow,great job Victor. That aint happening with Doom. Nope he outprepped and beat Grandmaster at his own game. He made Mephisto look like a fool lusting after that cosmic cube. Hell,Meph was his own personal lackey in ig. Should I post a scan of Doom getting his hands on the prize for him only to have Thanos set him ablaze. He failed miserably and the things both have set out for such as the heart's power and the ig. Thanos ended up with both.

I hope Doom acquires the ig in the future as it would make for an interesting story and then maybe we could revisit this debate. As it stands, Thanos stomps him.