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Who wins this clash of the demonic titans?

Neron 10/10
He has no low feats and his his usual portrayal is over the top.
The same can't be said for Mephisto however (BP,SS,Thanos,etc)

Originally posted by comicfan11
Neron 10/10
He has no low feats and his his usual portrayal is over the top.
The same can't be said for Mephisto however (BP,SS,Thanos,etc) ....thanos aint no low feat uhuh

Originally posted by Nihilist
....thanos aint no low feat uhuh


Don't get me wrong.
Thanos is no joke of course.
But for a guy who is supposed to be an extremely powerful and cunning archdemon even Thanos shouldn't prove to be much of problem at least in his own dimension (without any toys like IG of course)

Originally posted by comicfan11
Don't get me wrong.
Thanos is no joke of course.
But for a guy who is supposed to be an extremely powerful and cunning archdemon even Thanos shouldn't prove to be much of problem at least in his own dimension (without any toys like IG of course)

im only joking,i agree mephisto written correctly should imo be a absract lvl character,been the devil an all.

I don't think Thanos has ever actually defeated Mephisto in a physical fight.

He tricked him once with an incredibly simple trick (The empty cosmic cube) but physically...no.

Does anyone have any details or scans on the Black Panther/Mephisto bit?



As to the actual battle, I feel that they are roughly comparable.

Mephisto's greatest feat is, undoubtedly, stalemating Galactus (in Mephy's realm, but still).

Neron's greatest feat is tossing aside the Corrigan Spectre casually OUT of his own realm, and then separating the Corrigan Host from the Spectre Force (something thought to be impossible since it would go against the will of God).

Both are pretty impressive, though I suppose if I had to give one over the other I'd give it to Neron.

They've both owned or subdued powerful groups of heroes or powerful heroes individually.

The truth is, thanks to his many many more appearances, Mephisto has a lot more of the middling feats than does Neron -- defeating top tiers, etc.

By that same token, Mephisto DOES have some very low showings that Neron does not. Getting owned by Adam Warlock in his own realm. Flatly being defeated by Thor in his own realm. Stalemating Thor in his own realm. Being overpowered by the Surfer in his own realm. Possibly some incidents with Black Panther and Daredevil (I haven't seen these first hand).

I would give it to Neron, but not 10/10 as on average I feel they are roughly comparable.

Originally posted by Desaad
I don't think Thanos has ever actually defeated Mephisto in a physical fight.

He tricked him once with an incredibly simple trick (The empty cosmic cube) but physically...no.

Does anyone have any details or scans on the Black Panther/Mephisto bit?



As to the actual battle, I feel that they are roughly comparable.

Mephisto's greatest feat is, undoubtedly, stalemating Galactus (in Mephy's realm, but still).

Neron's greatest feat is tossing aside the Corrigan Spectre casually OUT of his own realm, and then separating the Corrigan Host from the Spectre Force (something thought to be impossible since it would go against the will of God).

Both are pretty impressive, though I suppose if I had to give one over the other I'd give it to Neron.

They've both owned or subdued powerful groups of heroes or powerful heroes individually.

The truth is, thanks to his many many more appearances, Mephisto has a lot more of the middling feats than does Neron -- defeating top tiers, etc.

By that same token, Mephisto DOES have some very low showings that Neron does not. Getting owned by Adam Warlock in his own realm. Flatly being defeated by Thor in his own realm. Stalemating Thor in his own realm. Being overpowered by the Surfer in his own realm. Possibly some incidents with Black Panther and Daredevil (I haven't seen these first hand).

I would give it to Neron, but not 10/10 as on average I feel they are roughly comparable.

meph didnt really stalemate galactus imo.galactus started to devour his realm.

Up until that point, though, they were stalemating.

Basically he couldn't actually put down Mephisto directly, so he threatened him with an unacceptable amount of collateral damage. Kind of what villains do to heroes to distract them or get them to give up, I feel.

Yes Mephisto indeed has more appearances than Neron but I could never ever EVER see Neron losing to character like Thor in his own realm or even out of it.

These instances really lower my respect for Mephisto to a great degree.

On the other hand Neron (although he has much fewer appearances) is always portrayed as something that characters like Asmodel, Etrigan, Bellial, Cap Marvel, Sentinel, Lilith and whole groups doesn't stand a chance against.

Bottom line Neron hasn't lost on the physical plane like Mephisto has and managed to divide the Spectre.
To be honest as Mephisto has been portrayed, if he tried to do something like that to the Spectre I think he would be toast.

That's why I give Neron 10/10 but i hope for Marvel to write Meph more according to his status.

Originally posted by comicfan11
He has no low feats and his his usual portrayal is over the top. some of his appearances have been, meh.

Originally posted by Galan007
some of his appearances have been, meh.

I don't know which one's you're reffering to but he hasn't hit botom like Mephisto has in more than one occasions.

Originally posted by Galan007
some of his appearances have been, meh.

He's had appearances that haven't elevated him, true, but none that have actively lowered him.

For instance, in my respect thread I posted a number of scans of him with Barbara Gorden, doing various things...nothing he did there was so incredible, but he wasn't ever hurt or anything like that.

Same goes for his later Flash appearance...Yes, he didn't do anything like crushing the Spectre, but he did own both Jay and Wally and ultimately could only be defeated by the plot device of the love between Wally and Linda (and even then undid all the damage to the city, including bringing back all the dead).

Can you be specific, maybe, about which showings of his were bad?

Even the imaginary showings -- like JLA 60 -- have him turning the entire JLA into coal!

Originally posted by Desaad
He's had appearances that haven't elevated him, true that's mainly what i was talking about.

Originally posted by Galan007
that's mainly what i was talking about.

Ah, well the same is true of Mephisto, and moreso given the length of time he has been around.

What is your opinion on the outcome?

There is a Neron and Mephisto respect thread in the Respect Thread forum if you need helping deciding.

Originally posted by Desaad
Ah, well the same is true of Mephisto, and moreso given the length of time he has been around.

What is your opinion on the outcome?

There is a Neron and Mephisto respect thread in the Respect Thread forum if you need helping deciding. neron's been more consistent in his showings, which is why i'd give him the edge.

Originally posted by comicfan11
On the other hand Neron (although he has much fewer appearances) is always portrayed as something that characters like Asmodel, Etrigan, Bellial, Cap Marvel, Sentinel, Lilith and whole groups doesn't stand a chance against.

Asmodel is far more powerful than Neron. Neron dooes win this although he had a recent low showing. Nothing as bad as to how Mephisto lost to BP though.

Meph was depowered when BP and him fought. Also, Mephisto was able to ret-con like 20 years of history. How many comic characters have accomplished this?

Originally posted by Avlon
Asmodel is far more powerful than Neron. Neron dooes win this although he had a recent low showing. Nothing as bad as to how Mephisto lost to BP though.

I urge you to take a look at the Neron respect thread I did; we have instances of Asmodel being tortured by Neron AND of Neron throwing him around and ordering him around in hell.

Its pretty clear that Neron is more powerful than Asmodel.

Also, what is this recent low showing you are referring to?

Originally posted by Red Hulk
Meph was depowered when BP and him fought. Also, Mephisto was able to ret-con like 20 years of history. How many comic characters have accomplished this? mxy, for one. vin

Originally posted by Red Hulk
Meph was depowered when BP and him fought. Also, Mephisto was able to ret-con like 20 years of history. How many comic characters have accomplished this?

In what way was Meph depowered?

I agree that the retconning history is extremely impressive, and while not up to that par I would counter with Neron undoing all the damage done to a city and bringing back all those that had died.

Also, Hal Jordan (Spectre) did something similar in the Flash series, and he was less powerful than the Corrigan Spectre who was tossed aside/manipulated by Neron...

Originally posted by Desaad
I urge you to take a look at the Neron respect thread I did; we have instances of Asmodel being tortured by Neron AND of Neron throwing him around and ordering him around in hell.

Its pretty clear that Neron is more powerful than Asmodel.

Also, what is this recent low showing you are referring to?

Agreed Asmodel is very powerful but he doesn't hold a candle to Neron.

Originally posted by Galan007
mxy, for one. vin Did he?

Originally posted by Desaad
In what way was Meph depowered?

I agree that the retconning history is extremely impressive, and while not up to that par I would counter with Neron undoing all the damage done to a city and bringing back all those that had died.

Also, Hal Jordan (Spectre) did something similar in the Flash series, and he was less powerful than the Corrigan Spectre who was tossed aside/manipulated by Neron... His power was lowered enough for BP to rip his heart out, due to BP's tech.

So BP and his technology was able to rip out Mephisto's heart?

...That sounds like an incredibly low showing.

Do you have any scans of this?

Originally posted by Red Hulk
Did he? did he what? retcon? yeah.

Originally posted by Desaad
So BP and his technology was able to rip out Mephisto's heart?

...That sounds like an incredibly low showing.

Do you have any scans of this? No.

Originally posted by Galan007
did he what? retcon? yeah. What did he do?

Originally posted by Red Hulk
What did he do? retconned a character's already established past, and replaced it with one of his own choosing. in a nutshell.

Originally posted by Galan007
retconned a character's already established past, and replaced it with one of his own choosing. in a nutshell. Wouldn't that be a mindwipe?

Originally posted by Red Hulk
Wouldn't that be a mindwipe? not really. continuity itself was altered, not just one character's perceptions. it was even referred to as a retcon.

Originally posted by Galan007
not really. continuity itself was altered, not just one character's perceptions. it was even referred to as a retcon. OK, I guess that puts Meph on Mxy's level then...

Originally posted by Red Hulk
OK, I guess that puts Meph on Mxy's level then... yep, it's settled. mxy = meph < BP. vin

Originally posted by Galan007
yep, it's settled. mxy = meph < BP. vin Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Can I blame Storm and Black Panther for being black?

Originally posted by Desaad
I urge you to take a look at the Neron respect thread I did; we have instances of Asmodel being tortured by Neron AND of Neron throwing him around and ordering him around in hell.

Its pretty clear that Neron is more powerful than Asmodel.

Also, what is this recent low showing you are referring to?

This is of course after the presence sentenced him when he tried to challenge him. Prior to that, Neron walked on eggshells around Asmodel.

It certainly had nothing to do with neron being more powerful (since he isnt.)

Nerons low showing was losing to Ralph Elongated man Dibny.

Originally posted by Avlon
This is of course after the presence sentenced him when he tried to challenge him. Prior to that, Neron walked on eggshells around Asmodel.

It certainly had nothing to do with neron being more powerful (since he isnt.)

There is, of course, no evidence that Asmodel's power level decreased.

And while Neron never openly attacked Asmodel prior to the sentencing, this doesn't mean he 'walked on eggshells' as you say. In point of fact, Neron chose to manipulate rather than confront almost EVERYONE he came into contact with. No matter how weak the villain or hero may have been.





Hardly a low showing as he was able to escape the spell that held him, which was specifically in Fate's tower, made by a wishing gun AND he killed Dibny AND he showed his utter ownership of Felix Faust who is powerful in his own right (as you can see in my respect thread).

Being outsmarted by someone like Ralph is a far cry from getting your heart ripped out by Black Panther, or physically losing to top tier or below heroes.

Originally posted by Desaad
There is, of course, no evidence that Asmodel's power level decreased.

Really?

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3238/depoweredtl4.th.jpg

"What have you done with my powers?"
"Lord Giveth, and the Lord Taketh away."

Looks like a depowering to me. Then God punished Asmodel which is where Neron comes in.


Originally posted by Desaad
And while Neron never openly attacked Asmodel prior to the sentencing, this doesn't mean he 'walked on eggshells' as you say. In point of fact, Neron chose to manipulate rather than confront almost EVERYONE he came into contact with. No matter how weak the villain or hero may have been.

Neron was Asmodels underling the whole time. He just bailed once the presence got involved and Damned Azzy.



Originally posted by Desaad
Hardly a low showing as he was able to escape the spell that held him, which was specifically in Fate's tower, made by a wishing gun AND he killed Dibny AND he showed his utter ownership of Felix Faust who is powerful in his own right (as you can see in my respect thread).

Which to make a long story short...means that he was owned by a human who's still a novice in magic. The trickster was tricked and thus it was a...

...Low showing. It's not like he was able to get out right away...he was trapped for a while. Faust was also desperate in that arc and hardly at his best...

Originally posted by Desaad
Being outsmarted by someone like Ralph is a far cry from getting your heart ripped out by Black Panther, or physically losing to top tier or below heroes.

Losing to either Ralph OR Black Panther is a low showing when you are supposed to be the ruler of hell...

Originally posted by Avlon
http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3238/depoweredtl4.th.jpg
Heh... that middle panel with Neron looks like an assy sig.

da pixelz! dey dont mach!

Originally posted by Avlon
Really?

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3238/depoweredtl4.th.jpg

"What have you done with my powers?"
"Lord Giveth, and the Lord Taketh away."

Looks like a depowering to me. Then God punished Asmodel which is where Neron comes in.

I took that to mean his powers over the bull host, since he specifically mentions his status.






I would argue that he was manipulating Asmodel the entire time, and ultimately got what he wanted...Asmodel in his torture chambers.







Comparing this showing, in which he was TRICKED and which ultimately was UNSUCCESSFUL to being beaten by the Surfer, Thor, Adam Warlock, Daredevil and Black Panther in his own realm is disingenuous.

The difference being that what THEY accomplished they did through physical means, and thusly are physical low showings.

Ralph outsmarted Neron - momentarily - but that is a different issue when we are talking about a straight vs fight.





Intelligence wise, yes (although, again, Neron escaped and killed Ralph Dibny AND Ralph was using powerful magical items) but not physically, which is all that is relevant for this type of battle.

Originally posted by Desaad
I urge you to take a look at the Neron respect thread I did; we have instances of Asmodel being tortured by Neron AND of Neron throwing him around and ordering him around in hell.

Its pretty clear that Neron is more powerful than Asmodel.

Also, what is this recent low showing you are referring to? Thats because Asmodel's powers were taken from him.

Originally posted by Desaad
I took that to mean his powers over the bull host, since he specifically mentions his status.

No, you took it to mean that Neron overpowered a fully powered asmodel. The scan clearly proved you wrong. Torturing a damned/depowered Asmodel is hardly a feat.


Originally posted by Desaad
I would argue that he was manipulating Asmodel the entire time, and ultimately got what he wanted...Asmodel in his torture chambers.

You could try, but there is nothing to suggest it. Neron simply bails and betrays once the presence is involved. Until then, he's a lackey.


Originally posted by Desaad
Comparing this showing, in which he was TRICKED and which ultimately was UNSUCCESSFUL to being beaten by the Surfer, Thor, Adam Warlock, Daredevil and Black Panther in his own realm is disingenuous.

The difference being that what THEY accomplished they did through physical means, and thusly are physical low showings.

Ralph outsmarted Neron - momentarily - but that is a different issue when we are talking about a straight vs fight.

Either way, it's a low showing...I could care less how it was accomplished... with tech or with novice magic. Humans still owned Lords of Hell.


Originally posted by Desaad
Intelligence wise, yes (although, again, Neron escaped and killed Ralph Dibny AND Ralph was using powerful magical items) but not physically, which is all that is relevant for this type of battle.

Black Panther didn't use intelligence to get over on Mephisto?

Originally posted by Red Hulk
Heh... that middle panel with Neron looks like an assy sig.

da pixelz! dey dont mach!

Agreed. Asstrocious to the end.

Originally posted by Avlon
No, you took it to mean that Neron overpowered a fully powered asmodel. The scan clearly proved you wrong. Torturing a damned/depowered Asmodel is hardly a feat.

You're misunderstanding what I just said.

I'm taking that scan, which you posted, to mean that his powers as the leader of the bull host were taken from him.

If a general is removed from command, his powers of command are removed.

His physical abilities are no less great.

Your interpretation may indeed be correct -- but it may not be.




The end result of the entire affair goes in Neron's favor, and no one elses. That alone is enough to imply that he had an ulterior motive throughout, just as Mephisto did throughout the Infinity Gauntlet affair (the difference being that Mephisto was unsuccessful).

In addition, his smug demeanor, self assured even as he took Asmodel's 'orders', the fact that he was consistently influencing him (he suggested Asmodel should send someone to kill Zauriel, even predicted that he would agree...which brought about the resistance...)...all these things contribute to my interpretation.






Tech means that it is within T'challa's ability to create. That his technology was, in a sense, able to overpower the ever powerful Mephisto.

A mystical weapon of unknown power level doing it is totally different.A normal man with the Spear of Destiny can defeat the Spectre, take control of any hero that enters Europe, etc.

You'd have a point of Ralph started studying up on magic and cast the spell himself.



Sure, strategic intelligence played a part in it. But so too did his ability to build a machine, apparently, which translates to physical power and is quantifiable.

Meph wins.

Originally posted by Desaad
You're misunderstanding what I just said.

I'm taking that scan, which you posted, to mean that his powers as the leader of the bull host were taken from him.

If a general is removed from command, his powers of command are removed.

His physical abilities are no less great.

Your interpretation may indeed be correct -- but it may not be.

Had he said "I've been stripped of my rank!" then I could see that. It's obvious that he says "My powers" to which Zauriel reponds that the lord can take them away.




Originally posted by Desaad
The end result of the entire affair goes in Neron's favor, and no one elses. That alone is enough to imply that he had an ulterior motive throughout, just as Mephisto did throughout the Infinity Gauntlet affair (the difference being that Mephisto was unsuccessful).

He bailed when the presence got involved. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Desaad
In addition, his smug demeanor, self assured even as he took Asmodel's 'orders', the fact that he was consistently influencing him (he suggested Asmodel should send someone to kill Zauriel, even predicted that he would agree...which brought about the resistance...)...all these things contribute to my interpretation.

He was smug when the presence depowered Asmodel. The rest of the time, he was on eggshells around Azzy.


Originally posted by Desaad
Tech means that it is within T'challa's ability to create. That his technology was, in a sense, able to overpower the ever powerful Mephisto.

A mystical weapon of unknown power level doing it is totally different.A normal man with the Spear of Destiny can defeat the Spectre, take control of any hero that enters Europe, etc.

You'd have a point of Ralph started studying up on magic and cast the spell himself.

Dibny put Neron in a predicament that Neron was not expecting nor prepared for. Simply put, he beat him. Neron later being able to escape is nice..but doesn't mean that he wasn't owned.

BP owning Mephisto...was low as well.




Originally posted by Desaad
Sure, strategic intelligence played a part in it. But so too did his ability to build a machine, apparently, which translates to physical power and is quantifiable.

Both simply used their minds to own vastly older, and more powerful beings.

Yeah i always thought Neron > Mephito...Yup

Originally posted by Avlon
Had he said "I've been stripped of my rank!" then I could see that. It's obvious that he says "My powers" to which Zauriel reponds that the lord can take them away.

Agree to disagree, I suppose.

I didn't see Asmodel to be so greatly powerful previous to that, so maybe that is our disconnect. He was, after all, stalemated by both J'onn and Energy Superman for a great period of time.




You're blatantly ignoring everything I've said. He wasn't walking on egg shells...he was subtly manipulating. He organizes the entire defeat, the entire resistance, by planting the idea of sending Etrigan against Zauriel and getting him involved.

Then, when all is said and done, he gets away scot free and with the former general of the bull host of angels to torture.



Here is how I see the difference: Dibny outsmarted Neron, undoubtedly, but Neron's 'low showing' is one of planning or intelligence.

We can honestly say that it took nothing more than a forcefield and Black Panther's talons to nearly KILL Mephisto. This is an indictment of his physical abilities in addition to his intelligence (for being put into that position).

For the purposes of a vs thread, the only thing that really matters is physical might. Therefore, the Black Panther showing, as a long showing, is pertinent in this thread. But the Ralph Dibny showing, low though it is, holds no sway because it concerns comparable intelligence rather than any physical deficiency or defeat.

Originally posted by Desaad
Agree to disagree, I suppose.

I didn't see Asmodel to be so greatly powerful previous to that, so maybe that is our disconnect. He was, after all, stalemated by both J'onn and Energy Superman for a great period of time.

It's clearly on panel. Asmodel was depowered and damned by the presence. So Neron has only had his way with a powerless Asmodel.

Originally posted by Desaad
You're blatantly ignoring everything I've said. He wasn't walking on egg shells...he was subtly manipulating. He organizes the entire defeat, the entire resistance, by planting the idea of sending Etrigan against Zauriel and getting him involved.

Then, when all is said and done, he gets away scot free and with the former general of the bull host of angels to torture.


Either way, Neron has never in any way shown that he was more powerful than Azzy at full strength. The opposite was a stronger suggestion actually as per what happend on panel.

After all, Neron has been through this twice now. He was smart enough to get out of heaven in time. Once the presence got involved, he knew he wasn't winning.


Originally posted by Desaad
Here is how I see the difference: Dibny outsmarted Neron, undoubtedly, but Neron's 'low showing' is one of planning or intelligence.

We can honestly say that it took nothing more than a forcefield and Black Panther's talons to nearly KILL Mephisto. This is an indictment of his physical abilities in addition to his intelligence (for being put into that position).

For the purposes of a vs thread, the only thing that really matters is physical might. Therefore, the Black Panther showing, as a long showing, is pertinent in this thread. But the Ralph Dibny showing, low though it is, holds no sway because it concerns comparable intelligence rather than any physical deficiency or defeat.

I agree on you on the outcome, I was simply pointing out low showings.

I'd go with Neron here.

LOL at comparing BP thrashing Meph in a physical fight and Neron getting imprisoned by a spell in Fate's tower nonetheless.

And LOL at Azmodel being more powerful than Neron.

Anyone who has read the Paradise Lost mini knows that Neron was playing Azmodel as a fool the whole time.

Anyway as already been said Meph has so many low showings even in his OWN realm that's not fair to compare him with Neron.

Meph gets owned here.

Originally posted by comicfan11
LOL at comparing BP thrashing Meph in a physical fight and Neron getting imprisoned by a spell in Fate's tower nonetheless.

LOL @ them being tricked by humans...

Originally posted by comicfan11
And LOL at Azmodel being more powerful than Neron.

Nothing has been shown otherwise when Azzy is fully powered.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Anyone who has read the Paradise Lost mini knows that Neron was playing Azmodel as a fool the whole time.

Anyone who has read it knows that Neron betrayed Azzy once the presence got involved...otherwise, he was sticking it out. Like Neron is going to follow someone who's less powerful than him into battle.

Originally posted by comicfan11
Anyway as already been said Meph has so many low showings even in his OWN realm that's not fair to compare him with Neron.

Meph gets owned here.

Not disagreeing with this one.