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Simple question:

Did Gandalf breech his contract, and if he did, was it appropriate given the context.


Was this contest with Sauron a breech of his commandment not to confront the Dark Tower with brute force? Was it acceptable, even to save the ring?

This is a fairly simple case, so lets expand the question. Would the Valar have liberated Middle Earth from domination by Sauron? If the west had fallen, would they have cast him out like they did to Morgoth? How far does the edict of nonintervention go?

How in your mind is that brute force? It's clearly explained as being a battle of wills.

Brute force as in magical force, rather than political/emotional machinations.

I was under the impression that they weren't allowed to use their magic directly against Sauron, the preferred method being convincing the inhabitants of Middle Earth to fight him. Gandalf was in a direct contest with Sauron, which he won. (in this case) If the restriction on power was only against using it on mortals/elves then why wouldn't the White Council have magicked Sauron off the tower?

Uh huh...seems more like Gandalf held Sauron at bay till Frodo removed the One Ring and the shadow passed looking for the Ring. Gandalf (the White) was very weary and had to rest where as Sauron just kept going and going so it would appear that it was Sauron that was victor in this battle of wills if Gandalf was the only one of the two to be tired. And need I remind you of this quote:

'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'

I think it said somewhere in UT that when the Valar were arranging the configuration of the Istari Olorin wasn't not at first invited. It was Saruman (I forgot how to spell his real name) and the two blue wizards. But Yavanna wanted to send one of her servents, which was Radagast. And last Manwe asked where Olorin was. Then he said he wanted him to go also. But Olorin didn't want to go, and Manwe asked why and he replied "I am afraid of Sauron," then Manwe said something to the effect of "That is why I want you to go."

And Gandalf did not breech his contract.

the prohibition was not about Sauron.

The prohibition was about using their full powers to control the destiny of Men.

Gandalf, and the other Istari, even Saruman before his corruption, used their powers directly against Sauron and his magical forces all the time. One of the things for example that Gandalf did during the siege of Minas Tirith, was to keep Sauron's cloud of Eternal Darkness from covering Gondor. Also Gandalf kept the Nazgul out of Minas Tirith, otherwise they would have entered and themselves crushed the defenders.

Saruman's Quenya name is Curunir, and in Sindarin he was known as Curomo.

I don't think he broke his contract, he can act in an emergency as an Angel. But he cannot use the full force of his power to openly awe man and elves into believing him to be some sort of god, and as such manipulate them.

Interestingly, both Sauron and Saruman (Curunir/Curumo) were Maia of Aule. Whom, himself had a somewhat deviant nature when it came to creating things when he shouldn't, in his creation of the Dwarves. The difference of course being the Aule repented and was willing to destroy that which he had created for his love of Eru. But its of note that perhaps he passed on these more -ve qualities to his Maia. The desire to make without restraint?

Originally posted by Aule
I don't think he broke his contract, he can act in an emergency as an Angel. But he cannot use the full force of his power to openly awe man and elves into believing him to be some sort of god, and as such manipulate them.

Interestingly, both Sauron and Saruman (Curunir/Curumo) were Maia of Aule. Whom, himself had a somewhat deviant nature when it came to creating things when he shouldn't, in his creation of the Dwarves. The difference of course being the Aule repented and was willing to destroy that which he had created for his love of Eru. But its of note that perhaps he passed on these more -ve qualities to his Maia. The desire to make without restraint?

Thanks. That exception is what I was looking for.

How 'bout this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBW5P8c6_cs?

What was Saruman referring to when he said "Something festers at the heart of Middle Earth"? (1:37)

I know this wasn't part of the books- more changes by Jackson? what was it foreshadowing?

It could possibly be that Saruman has seen in the Palantir what Sauron plans to do, as such his intent and malevolence could be causing the very nature of Middle-earth to change. Especially notable was the darkening and corrupting effect that the Necromancer had on Mirkwood.

That, or he could be referring to the greater Dark Lord, Morgoth. Who it is said will escape from the void when the gods grow old and tired. Perhaps it refers to his darker influence on Middle-earth. I would certainly say it is foreshadowing something but not sure which one.