Bane w. venom vs Classic Kingpin

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geshien
Bloodlust on.

Who wins?

BUSTER1
The fatman gets crushed

Master Crimzon
Bane. Any person who can compete with/beat Batman can ruin Kingpin's shit.

geshien
Originally posted by BUSTER1
The fatman gets crushed

Care to elaborate?

BUSTER1
I thought this was Bane with Venom, in which case he destroys Kingpin

geshien
Originally posted by BUSTER1
I thought this was Bane with Venom, in which case he destroys Kingpin

The venom raises his physical attributes to superhuman levels but, not enough to stomp Kingpin.

It may give him a physical edge but, his rational is also lowered when he pumps more venom. Not to mention, too much and it will kill him.

Kingpin is a superb fighter. Peak human strength. Able to lift 650 lbs, leave imprints of his fists in concrete walls, crush a mans' skull with is bare hands and break Spider-mans web shooters without effort. And he is deceptively quick and agile.

They're virtually on par with one another. Where's the overwhelming advantage that Bane has that makes you think Kingpin gets crushed?

BUSTER1
Originally posted by geshien
The venom raises his physical attributes to superhuman levels but, not enough to stomp Kingpin.

It may give him a physical edge but, his rational is also lowered when he pumps more venom. Not to mention, too much and it will kill him.

Kingpin is a superb fighter. Peak human strength. Able to lift 650 lbs, leave imprints of his fists in concrete walls, crush a mans' skull with is bare hands and break Spider-mans web shooters without effort. And he is deceptively quick and agile.

They're virtually on par with one another. Where's the overwhelming advantage that Bane has that makes you think Kingpin gets crushed?

Both are superb fighters, on par in skill and combat speed. But Bane with venom has super strength (about 2 ton level), stamina and durability, sufficient to shrug of bullets. When 2 people of equal skill lock horns and 1 of them is over 4 times stronger than the other and far more durable, he'll destroy the other 1.
Happy Dance

Endrict Nuul
Originally posted by BUSTER1
The fatman gets crushed


laughing Yeah, right!!

Endrict Nuul
Classic Kinpin isnt he like class 10???? and Bane is maybe 1-2 tons.


Fisk murders him.

geshien
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
Classic Kinpin isnt he like class 10???? and Bane is maybe 1-2 tons.


Fisk murders him.


Just looked at the respect thread.

Classic KP is a beast.

BUSTER1
Originally posted by geshien
Just looked at the respect thread.

Classic KP is a beast.

Look at you own post-you said yourself that Kingpin can only lift upt to 650pounds

Master Crimzon
Bane with Venom was able to defeat Batman in combat. I'd love to see Kingpin do that.

Bane without Venom is probably roughly on par with Kingpin, but honestly, Venom gives him an incredible, undeniable boost of power.

Kingpin is good. He IS agile, for a man of his weight- when you weigh as much as he does, there's a very, very fine limit to how fast and agile you can be, even if he is pure muscle. Bane, while bulky, doesn't have the same issue; Venom will enable him to overcome Fisk in combat. This isn't quite a stomp, but Bane has this.

Endrict Nuul
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Bane with Venom was able to defeat Batman in combat. I'd love to see Kingpin do that.

Bane without Venom is probably roughly on par with Kingpin, but honestly, Venom gives him an incredible, undeniable boost of power.

Kingpin is good. He IS agile, for a man of his weight- when you weigh as much as he does, there's a very, very fine limit to how fast and agile you can be, even if he is pure muscle. Bane, while bulky, doesn't have the same issue; Venom will enable him to overcome Fisk in combat. This isn't quite a stomp, but Bane has this.

But yet, he fights Spider-Man, I would like to see Bane or Batman do that!!! stick out tongue

Owned!!!

geshien
Originally posted by BUSTER1
Look at you own post-you said yourself that Kingpin can only lift upt to 650pounds

Well I guess you caught me red handed roll eyes (sarcastic) and I also said that I just looked up the respect thread.

Moreover, the fact that he is more powerful than I evaluated just puts more weight to my question; how is Bane the clear victor?

If Fisk can bend steal and push right through walls (just pushing), I think it's safe to assume he's benching more than 650.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
But yet, he fights Spider-Man, I would like to see Bane or Batman do that!!! stick out tongue

Owned!!!

XD

Well, modern Fisk is regularly owned by Spider-Man after possibly giving him a few blows. 'Classic' KP often managed to fight Spider-Man evenly, which I might say, is a bunch of bullcrap. If KP can do it, Batman can do it (not modern Spidey, though. Lolz)

Situation reminds me a bit of the whole Batman vs. Joker situation. Apparently, in his first incarnations, the Joker regularly fought evenly with Batman; nowadays, Batman usually beats him up after the Joker lands a few blows.

And random sayings are over, I'd say that 'classic' KP may have a chance in beating Bane. Modern (and more logical) KP doesn't.

Endrict Nuul
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
XD

Well, modern Fisk is regularly owned by Spider-Man after possibly giving him a few blows. 'Classic' KP often managed to fight Spider-Man evenly, which I might say, is a bunch of bullcrap. If KP can do it, Batman can do it (not modern Spidey, though. Lolz)

Situation reminds me a bit of the whole Batman vs. Joker situation. Apparently, in his first incarnations, the Joker regularly fought evenly with Batman; nowadays, Batman usually beats him up after the Joker lands a few blows.

And random sayings are over, I'd say that 'classic' KP may have a chance in beating Bane. Modern (and more logical) KP doesn't.

Too bad we arent talking about current KP here..... big grin

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
Too bad we arent talking about current KP here..... big grin

Yeah...

Though I'd say that Kingpin beating Spider-Man is flat-out ridiculous. Seems to go over-the-top trying to get Spidey to face a real physical challenge.

godking
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Bane with Venom was able to defeat Batman in combat. I'd love to see Kingpin do that.

Bane without Venom is probably roughly on par with Kingpin, but honestly, Venom gives him an incredible, undeniable boost of power.

Kingpin is good. He IS agile, for a man of his weight- when you weigh as much as he does, there's a very, very fine limit to how fast and agile you can be, even if he is pure muscle. Bane, while bulky, doesn't have the same issue; Venom will enable him to overcome Fisk in combat. This isn't quite a stomp, but Bane has this. Kingpin beat Captain America and Red Skull in fair fights so i think he would be able to beat batman.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by godking
Kingpin beat Captain America and Red Skull in fair fights so i think he would be able to beat batman.

Only that that was 'classic' (read: Ridiculously overpowered) Kingpin. Batman is vastly more technically skilled than both the Captain and Red Skull; he also has at least equal speed and strength feats, being a peak human combatant. Kingpin, for all of his relative agility, should not be able to be as fast as someone who is a lot less heavy, and also focuses on speed and stealth.

Batman should, by all rights, beat Kingpin in a fair fight.

Endrict Nuul
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Only that that was 'classic' (read: Ridiculously overpowered) Kingpin. Batman is vastly more technically skilled than both the Captain and Red Skull; he also has at least equal speed and strength cfeats, being a peak human combatant. Kingpin, for all of his relative agility, should not be able to be as fast as someone who is a lot less heavy, and also focuses on speed and stealth.

Batman should, by all rights, beat Kingpin in a fair fight.

You cant change the fact that this is the classic version and his feats, so deal with it.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
You cant change the fact that this is the classic version and his feats, so deal with it.

Never claimed I won't deal with 'em, and I now think that Kingpin has a fighting chance in this battle.

I actually hate it when people rule feats as PIS and refuse to acknowledge them. Even if they are PIS, they still need to be acknolwedged in a debate. And as much as I grudgingly must admit, classic KP is a friggin' BEAST.

Still, his opponents- Captain America, Spider-Man, Daredevil- seem to have gotten a lot stronger in recent years. Or did KP become weaker?

Faux Smurph
KP became weaker.

Even back then, Spider-Man and Cap were fast, but KP was fast enough to take them by surprise.

Nowadays, he's treated as an ordinary human with a big criminal empire.

Endrict Nuul
KP became a lot weaker..

Master Crimzon
Well, in most of these comics, they are depicted to be outclassing Kingpin in speed, but Kingpin crushing them once he gets his hands on 'em.

Yeah, Kingpin was physically stronger than Spider-Man.

And I like modern Kingpin. I can appreciate a mastermind being a good fighter, but c'mon. You have to be a 'super' martial artist to compete with superhumans. Kingpin isn't.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by geshien
Just looked at the respect thread.

Classic KP is a beast.

I'd encourage others to do the same. Classic KP is shocking in his power and skill. The slow depowerment into current KP is one of my biggest sadnesses in comics.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Still, his opponents- Captain America, Spider-Man, Daredevil- seem to have gotten a lot stronger in recent years. Or did KP become weaker?

Both. But as earlier as issue 33 of ASM, Spidey was doing things that were >> 10 tons, well before his first encounter with KP. KP was legitimately that strong and pwoerful.

Ptr_Grifin
For some reason I just see Bane breaking Kingpin. Even without the venom, Bane seemed to be stronger than peak human could take hits.

Endrict Nuul
PTR, what cartoon is that DP from???

Master Crimzon
DigiMark; Kingpin isn't a 'brawn'-based character. Why are you so unhappy if he degenerates in skill? It's not like that's his defining character trait.

Hell, even with characters like Magneto, who is a smart, complex villain, his mastery of magnetism is a defining character trait. If Batman suddenly got suckier in martial arts, it will piss me off. If Spidey was slower, it would be annoying. If Wolverine's healing factor was weaker, it would... make me happy. I hate that cheap healing factor.

Kingpin, though, is a smart crime boss. Just like I couldn't care less if Carmine Falcone could handle Batman in H2H, Kingpin isn't defined by his skill in fighting. He's more of a Lex Luthor type character than anything.

As you see, I have problems when characters defeat or hold their own against other characters which they would logically have no chance defeating. While I hate the using of PIS to make character feats redunant, these feats- while I suppose that they have to be accepted- are ridiculous. I mean, REALLY. Kingpin isn't even one of the world's greatest martial artist; he's not Batman, Deathstroke, or Lady Shiva. How the hell can he fend off Spider-Man, who is not only faster and more agile, but physically stronger as well?

That's, ultimately, why Modern KP > 'Classic' KP.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
PTR, what cartoon is that DP from???

Its Deadpool from the upcoming Wolverine vs Hulk cartoon.

http://vimeo.com/1662185

Endrict Nuul
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Its Deadpool from the upcoming Wolverine vs Hulk cartoon.

http://vimeo.com/1662185


Thanks man......thats awesome to see. Def cant wait for this now.

Ptr_Grifin
Originally posted by Endrict Nuul
Thanks man......thats awesome to see. Def cant wait for this now.

No problem. I put it in your "Hulk vs Wolverine" thread, as not many people who are interested in that movie might not come into this topic.

The Heap
If he's on "Venom", Bane breaks Kingpins head like a melon.

big grin

DigiMark007
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
DigiMark; Kingpin isn't a 'brawn'-based character. Why are you so unhappy if he degenerates in skill? It's not like that's his defining character trait.

Hell, even with characters like Magneto, who is a smart, complex villain, his mastery of magnetism is a defining character trait. If Batman suddenly got suckier in martial arts, it will piss me off. If Spidey was slower, it would be annoying. If Wolverine's healing factor was weaker, it would... make me happy. I hate that cheap healing factor.

Kingpin, though, is a smart crime boss. Just like I couldn't care less if Carmine Falcone could handle Batman in H2H, Kingpin isn't defined by his skill in fighting. He's more of a Lex Luthor type character than anything.

As you see, I have problems when characters defeat or hold their own against other characters which they would logically have no chance defeating. While I hate the using of PIS to make character feats redunant, these feats- while I suppose that they have to be accepted- are ridiculous. I mean, REALLY. Kingpin isn't even one of the world's greatest martial artist; he's not Batman, Deathstroke, or Lady Shiva. How the hell can he fend off Spider-Man, who is not only faster and more agile, but physically stronger as well?

That's, ultimately, why Modern KP > 'Classic' KP.

Lulz. Thanks for the dissertation, but we're allowed to like characters for different reasons. In the 60's, 70's, early 80's he was all of the good things you mentioned AND a beast who could match Spider-Man blow for blow. You say that wasn't his defining characteristic....but it's only not what they've more recently made his defining characteristic. Back then it was every bit as much an integral part of him as his smarts.

And he's actually had a ton of training. No, he's not Batman in skill, but he's had far more formal training than any but the most skilled MAists.

And yet another lulz at saying his feats are ridiculous. Comics are ridiculous. A 600 pound man honing it into pure muscle, training mercilessly, and being able to match Spidey is far from the most ridiculous thing I've read this month, let alone all-time. How is Cap bettering Spidey occasionally any less ridiculous? Better skill, far less physical stats. Same thing.

Also, whoever said Bane is beyond peak human and used it as a point for him, so is Classic KP. By a lot. Classic KP wins 9/10. Anyone who thinks it's a stomp in the other direction doesn't know KP. Maybe I'm biased and Bane would take the slight majority, but it's a straight fact that Classic KP is physically superior to anything close to peak human.

BruceSkywalker
Originally posted by geshien
Bloodlust on.

Who wins?


Interesting, in a straight one on one fight Classic Fisk beats the shiite out of Bane..

However if Bane were to stay in the shadows and watch Fisk fight and fight and tire himself out, then I can see Bane destroy him..

godking
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Only that that was 'classic' (read: Ridiculously overpowered) Kingpin. Batman is vastly more technically skilled than both the Captain and Red Skull; he also has at least equal speed and strength feats, being a peak human combatant. Kingpin, for all of his relative agility, should not be able to be as fast as someone who is a lot less heavy, and also focuses on speed and stealth.

Batman should, by all rights, beat Kingpin in a fair fight. Batman is more technically skilled then skull not cap.

Technically they are about on par.

Kingpin is not as fast as cap or batman but he is fast enough to keep up with them.


Kingpin vs Batman is at the very least a 50-50- fight He has beaten guys faster and stronger then him and just as skilled in captain america red skull and Daredevil.

Kingpin is a good match against Bane Venom or no Venom.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by godking
Batman is more technically skilled then skull not cap.

Technically they are about on par.

Kingpin is not as fast as cap or batman but he is fast enough to keep up with them.


Kingpin vs Batman is at the very least a 50-50- fight He has beaten guys faster and stronger then him and just as skilled in captain america red skull and Daredevil.

Kingpin is a good match against Bane Venom or no Venom.

Neither Daredevil nor Captain America are faster than Batman, and I would think that the guy who mastered 137 forms of martial arts- all forms known to mankind- would be more technically skilled than these too.

America, Red Skull, and Daredevil are not, in any way, on par with Batman when it comes to technical skill. Out of these three, only Captain America stands a chance in a fight against Batman.

Kingpin would die to Batman at least 7/10 times.

godking
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Neither Daredevil nor Captain America are faster than Batman, and I would think that the guy who mastered 137 forms of martial arts- all forms known to mankind- would be more technically skilled than these too.

America, Red Skull, and Daredevil are not, in any way, on par with Batman when it comes to technical skill. Out of these three, only Captain America stands a chance in a fight against Batman.

Kingpin would die to Batman at least 7/10 times. Captain America is easily faster then Batman.

Batman is peak human Captain america is BEYOND peak human.

And yes captain america and DD are as technically proficient as batman.

The Heap
Originally posted by godking
Captain America is easily faster then Batman.

Batman is peak human Captain america is BEYOND peak human.

And yes captain america and DD are as technically proficient as batman.

Riiight.

Batman - Studied all forms of MA known to Mankind.

DD - Studied a few MA's and Kickboxing.


Rules say they have a fair amount of knowledge of each other before they fight, and with Batman having learnt everything DD knows, Batman will school him in H2H.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by godking
Captain America is easily faster then Batman.

Batman is peak human Captain america is BEYOND peak human.

And yes captain america and DD are as technically proficient as batman.

Well, Heap already pwned your 'DD and America are as skilled as Batman!'.

And Captain America is the absolute pinnacle of human perfection, just like Batman. He operates on purely human levels- he's not a metahuman. Therefore, they are physically on par.

Jugglenaut
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Neither Daredevil nor Captain America are faster than Batman,
Does Batman swat bullets away using a club? I'll take that as a no.
Daredevil is a bullet timer, Batman isn't.


So Batman's gotten training from Stick? I don't think so.

Jugglenaut
DP.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Master Crimzon

Kingpin would die to Batman at least 7/10 times.
What the f**k?
Batman 10/10

Originally posted by Jugglenaut

Daredevil is a bullet timer, Batman isn't.


So Batman's gotten training from Stick? I don't think so.
durlaugh

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Jugglenaut
Does Batman swat bullets away using a club? I'll take that as a no.
Daredevil is a bullet timer, Batman isn't.

Daredevil dodged three lightning-fast beams from a point blank ranged, using pure acrobatics?

Did Daredevil speed blitz a small army of armed gangsters and own them with his bare hands while avoiding all bullets?

I don't think so.


Originally posted by Jugglenaut
So Batman's gotten training from Stick? I don't think so.

Daredevil got training from Lady Shiva and has complete mastery of all forms of martial arts known to mankind, and is a master of lethal blows and defenses known almost exclusively to him?

I don't think so.

Occultdestroyer, I said 'at least'. Means it could be higher. :P

Jugglenaut
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Daredevil dodged three lightning-fast beams from a point blank ranged, using pure acrobatics?

Did Daredevil speed blitz a small army of armed gangsters and own them with his bare hands while avoiding all bullets?

I don't think so.




Daredevil got training from Lady Shiva and has complete mastery of all forms of martial arts known to mankind, and is a master of lethal blows and defenses known almost exclusively to him?

I don't think so.

Occultdestroyer, I said 'at least'. Means it could be higher. :P
Dodging lasers? Matt's done that.
Dodging thrown objects from someone who can make a fingernail go through glass and kill someone?
Impressing Classic Thor with his reflexes and 'skill'?


So Shiva's a better martial artist than Stick? eek!

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Jugglenaut
Dodging lasers? Matt's done that.
Dodging thrown objects from someone who can make a fingernail go through glass and kill someone?


So Shiva's a better martial artist than Stick? eek!

Dodging lasters? At point blank range, while the enemy is a feet in front of him? Oh, and relatively wide lasers, too? (Mr. Freeze's Ice Beams)

Avoid sniper fire based on pure instincts and clever usage of stealth?

And how is Stick superior to Shiva, the world's greatest assassin (Deathstroke is a slight competitor, though)? Besides, it's not like that's the full extent of Batman's training. He dedicated his entire life to physical conditioning and training, to the point that he is a master of 137 fighting disciplines. That's more than Matt Murdock can possibly claim.

Batman > Daredevil, really.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Occultdestroyer, I said 'at least'. Means it could be higher. :P
erm
I was laughing at Jugglenaut's post

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
erm
I was laughing at Jugglenaut's post

Yeah, but I had to put a response.

occultdestroyer
Bane w/ Venom

Jugglenaut
Originally posted by Master Crimzon

And how is Stick superior to Shiva, the world's greatest assassin (Deathstroke is a slight competitor, though)?

So you think Shiva could sneak up on a Wolverine who's had his senses enhanced by 100x?
roll eyes (sarcastic)
And if you really want to go by martial arts skills, coming back to life on your own free will > Leopard Blow.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Jugglenaut
So you think Shiva could sneak up on a Wolverine who's had his senses enhanced by 100x?
roll eyes (sarcastic)
And if you really want to go by martial arts skills, coming back to life on your own free will > Leopard Blow.
durclown

The Heap
Batman - Daredevil.

Bane w/ venom/performance enhancers - Kingpin. A.K.A. "Burger Chops"

Faux Smurph
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Did Daredevil speed blitz a small army of armed gangsters and own them with his bare hands while avoiding all bullets?
Yes.

But they were Yakuza, not stereotype American gangsters.

norrinradd43
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Only that that was 'classic' (read: Ridiculously overpowered) Kingpin. Batman is vastly more technically skilled than both the Captain and Red Skull; he also has at least equal speed and strength feats, being a peak human combatant. Kingpin, for all of his relative agility, should not be able to be as fast as someone who is a lot less heavy, and also focuses on speed and stealth.

Batman should, by all rights, beat Kingpin in a fair fight.

I dont know about being superior to Red Skull in tech, The skull has made some pretty nasty battle suits before...he was tearing down buildings and beat Cap within an inch of his life with it.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by Faux Smurph
Yes.

But they were Yakuza, not stereotype American gangsters.

shifty

Bah, same thing. Lolz.

The Heap
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
shifty

Bah, same thing. Lolz.

Same with Ninja too, unless it's the TMNT.

Either way, Bane would break KP if he's abusing venom again.

Bouboumaster
CLASSIC Kingpin win

The Heap
Originally posted by Bouboumaster
CLASSIC Kingpin win

Of course he does, 10/10















Unless Bane's on venom. Then it's probably stalemate.

godking
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, Heap already pwned your 'DD and America are as skilled as Batman!'.

And Captain America is the absolute pinnacle of human perfection, just like Batman. He operates on purely human levels- he's not a metahuman. Therefore, they are physically on par. Wrong Bruce is the pinacle of human perfection. Captain america is clearly beyond.

Captain America is immune to most poisons known to man and physically nearly unable to get tired.

Bruce could train for a thousand years and Captain America would still be beyond him physically.

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by godking
Wrong Bruce is the pinacle of human perfection. Captain america is clearly beyond.

Captain America is immune to most poisons known to man and physically nearly unable to get tired.

Bruce could train for a thousand years and Captain America would still be beyond him physically.

Captain America's metabolism is unnatural, but Batman is just as fast, durable, and strong. If you think otherwise, prove it.

geshien
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Captain America's metabolism is unnatural, but Batman is just as fast, durable, and strong. If you think otherwise, prove it.

Batman is peak human. Capt. America is superhuman.

jrodslam
Classic Fisk wins.

Back in the day, not only was he giving Spidey problems strength wise, but he was fast to boot. For his stature, KP ALWAYS caught his opponents off guard. Skill wise, the man has trained with over a 1/2 a dozen black belts and red belts, some of which were armed, and still defeated them in less than 20 seconds.

Kingpin(non classic) also fought Bats and stalemated him. Classic KP would beat Bane pretty handily imo.

godking
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Captain America's metabolism is unnatural, but Batman is just as fast, durable, and strong. If you think otherwise, prove it. He is'nt Steve can simply ask more from his body because he is beyond human. Batman is the best a human can do naturally Steve is beyond what can be able to obtain naturally . Steves immunity to most toxins and nigh inability to get physically tired alone puts him beyond what batman can achieve with training

Master Crimzon
Originally posted by godking
He is'nt Steve can simply ask more from his body because he is beyond human. Batman is the best a human can do naturally Steve is beyond what can be able to obtain naturally . Steves immunity to most toxins and nigh inability to get physically tired alone puts him beyond what batman can achieve with training

Dude, even his Marvel profile maintains that Captain America only operates in 'near' superhuman levels. Near. Not superhuman.

geshien
Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Dude, even his Marvel profile maintains that Captain America only operates in 'near' superhuman levels. Near. Not superhuman.

I didn't think anybody actually relied on those things...

Here at KMC, we like to use feats to calibrate characters, with the exception of certain b.s. moments *cough* armbar *cough*.

Pyron_Knight
Kingpin wins.

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