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Pyron

VS.

kratos in god form with all magic and weapons including blade of olympus, WITH

Kain with all of his powers (yes, BT your probabaly extremely happy) WITH

the demon god Sparda, dantes father.

ime not happy because fights like this have been done time and time again, Kain can solo this lineup and his team members especially since youve given the guy zero drawbacks, Pyron is a physical powerhouse, Kain loves physical powers

They all are incinerated by being within a mile of Pyron.

Kain just repel shields and rips out Pyrons soul with ease, pyrons heat is not that high, where does it say hes hot enough for that? if he was the Earth atmosphere would be in a bad state and the Earth itself would be in the DS universe after all the times pyron has been near/on it

The global temperature went of the charts even before Pyron was anywhere near the planet, did it not?

Originally posted by Burning thought
ime not happy because fights like this have been done time and time again, Kain can solo this lineup and his team members especially since youve given the guy zero drawbacks, Pyron is a physical powerhouse, Kain loves physical powers

Looks like your the only one who thinks that, and i personally think this would be a good fight. dont know who would win.

can pyron defeat the dispair embodied?

Can despair embodied defeat Pyron? I care not what people say. In some cases, size does matter.

leon's FTL abstract-killing Dante might win.
The real one though, dies horribly.

edit

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
The global temperature went of the charts even before Pyron was anywhere near the planet, did it not?

Ive not seen the image in a long time, but he is not within the level of heat to disintegrate beings, and when he was humanoid form he didnt burn anyone afaik , either way ive never seen his presence actually burn anything. Also i dont remember if the guys were saying the temp was going off the charts or if they were simply experiancing gravitational problems because of his size.

Originally posted by k1Lla441
Looks like your the only one who thinks that, and i personally think this would be a good fight. dont know who would win.


Thats not a unlikely thing, since most of this community know little on Kain in general and the rest dont care, the main thing is, can someone debate against me? probably not..

Just to close this stupid argument over Pyron's heat aura.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/Pyronftw/Pyronisfrigginhuge.jpg

He was heating the planet to unnatural temperatues despite being so far away the planet was not even aware he was there.

As far as Pyron not heating the planet while fighting on it, well that was mortal Pyron.

But even mortal Pyron destroyed an entire underwater civilization of Darkstalker level creatures as a side effect of landing in the Atlantic Ocean.

Mortal Pyron's energies alone was enough to separate Bishamon's body and soul from his sword and armor.

Pyron in his unrestrained form would incinerate any one of these puny mortals simply by being within feat of them.

Pyron can devour entire planets with ease, hell, he can do better than that, he can convert planets into rings which orbit his fingers.

He can change size and form rapidly and very quickly.

Even if this was mortal Pyron he would physically be more powerful than any of them except maybe Kratos.

Pyron is faster, stronger, more powerful, more durable, and SMARTER than any of these.

Pyron has Cosmic Awareness on a vast level, able to scan Earth in an instant and probably Makai along with it, and even though he was on the other side of the universe he was able to see Earth clearly.

Pyron can manipulate and create matter and energy at vast levels, as I said he converts planets to rings, and can absorb their energy and matter as well, and created the Phobos from nothing.

Kain repel shields? Prove Kain's shield can withstand Pyron. Simply saying,"ZOMG! IT HAS NEVA BEEN BROKED BEFORE!" doesn't count.

Rips Pyron's soul? Doesn't even work on pathetic LoK bosses, sorry. And before you say,"That's gameplay." the said power only exists in gameplay, so obviously it doesn't work on powerful foes.

Pyron possesses some degree of telekinesis, able to form concussive blasts with his mind.

Pyron has an impenetrable shield and can teleport at his own whim.

Pyron possesses Telepathy as well, he was able to speak to all the creatures in Makai, and manipulated them into coming to him to do battle with him.

Pyron owns this fight with the utmost of ease. He is one of the few characters who can truly be called a "God."

And Leon, Pyron could solo DMC.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Just to close this stupid argument over Pyron's heat aura.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/Pyronftw/Pyronisfrigginhuge.jpg

1.He was heating the planet to unnatural temperatues despite being so far away the planet was not even aware he was there.

2. As far as Pyron not heating the planet while fighting on it, well that was mortal Pyron.

But even mortal Pyron destroyed an entire underwater civilization of Darkstalker level creatures as a side effect of landing in the Atlantic Ocean.

Mortal Pyron's energies alone was enough to separate Bishamon's body and soul from his sword and armor.

3. Pyron in his unrestrained form would incinerate any one of these puny mortals simply by being within feat of them.

Pyron can devour entire planets with ease, hell, he can do better than that, he can convert planets into rings which orbit his fingers.

He can change size and form rapidly and very quickly.

Even if this was mortal Pyron he would physically be more powerful than any of them except maybe Kratos.

4. Pyron is faster, stronger, more powerful, more durable, and SMARTER than any of these.

Pyron has Cosmic Awareness on a vast level, able to scan Earth in an instant and probably Makai along with it, and even though he was on the other side of the universe he was able to see Earth clearly.

5. Pyron can manipulate and create matter and energy at vast levels, as I said he converts planets to rings, and can absorb their energy and matter as well, and created the Phobos from nothing.

6. Kain repel shields? Prove Kain's shield can withstand Pyron. Simply saying,"ZOMG! IT HAS NEVA BEEN BROKED BEFORE!" doesn't count.

7. Rips Pyron's soul? Doesn't even work on pathetic LoK bosses, sorry. And before you say,"That's gameplay." the said power only exists in gameplay, so obviously it doesn't work on powerful foes.

Pyron possesses some degree of telekinesis, able to form concussive blasts with his mind.

8. Pyron has an impenetrable shield and can teleport at his own whim.

Pyron possesses Telepathy as well, he was able to speak to all the creatures in Makai, and manipulated them into coming to him to do battle with him.

9. Pyron owns this fight with the utmost of ease. He is one of the few characters who can truly be called a "God."

And Leon, Pyron could solo DMC.

lol this looks like a continuos rant of how much you love Pyron rather than a debate point so ill bold those points which I find relevant.

1. They wouldnt know would they, their only an Earth civilisation of what looks like modern day, but its obvious by the size of Earth in the picture he was not that far away and the planet was simply experiancing diffrences in temperature higher than greenhouse gas but there is no mention of any drastic melting or burning so....so much for the "hell disintegratzor them with hiz aura!"

2. What are you calling mortal Pyron, the guy, no matter who he fought in that form doesnt seem to ever show afaik burning them at all.

3. Is this some kind of gibberish? there are no mortals in this battle, all immortal.

4. Faster once he starts moving and gaining momentum sure, powerful? in what stakes? he couldnt even touch the Elder God yet Kain can, so in those odds Kain is more powerful technically and Pyron is worthless, Kain can take Pyrons soul, thats easier. And Durable? sure but whats the point when you cannot kill Kain? he cant do much at all to kain in this fight, its unrestircted.

5. False, he can create energy from himself, not from nothing, if hes devoured a planet, he can make it a ring, and no, he created the phobos from his own energy, not nothing.

6. whats your argument for Pyron destroying the shield? the repel shield is invulerable against all LOK foes, simple, whats Pyrons standing here? but I could bring in the out of game power of the shield, the shield is powered by Kains magic, which is limitless, thus limitless power for it, Pyron would never penetrate an infnite source but he wont hit kain anyway, hell be soul ripped.

7. Thats a weak argument completly for all these reasons:

A: first, whats funny is that Demitri, a "pathetic" vampire or w/e you would call LOK characters defeated your beloved Pyron

B: LOK bosses is gameplay, your simply jumping on the back of weak debaters like Terry who continually use gameplay, ime not using gameplay however, ime using the story description of what the power does...trying to look down on the attack as weak just by using gameplay is probably the only thing you could come up in this rank to even try and denote it from just annihilating your lover

if you want to play gameplay, Pyron doesnt beat anyone, he has to hit even human opponents in his game many times to defeat them in a K.O lol

8. most of these characters have the same thing, and prove the shield is impenetrable? unlike Kains magic, Pyrons shield which is made from his own energy is not impenetrable.

9. As for your final sad conlusion to your delusional rant this I just had to highlight because its funny "one of the few characters who can be called a God" lol.......get over him...

Prove Kain has limitless magic.

hes a balance guardian, they regulate the magic, thus, he himself would have unlmited magic, since he is the one who decides its lmit, since hes the regulator of magic:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php

I control a gas station. Does that mean I get unlimited gas.


No.


So what if he regulates magic. Has Kain every specifically used this ability to give himself unlimited magic?

that analogy has no comparisson whatsoever.....a gas station is not limitless and second a gas station does not regulate gas, the gas is finite, the gas station simply allows you to harvest the gas.

No, why would he? asking that question is like asking if a human can walk if theyve got the ability to walk.

How do you know Kain commands limitless magic. How do you know there isn't a limit on how much he controls.

Maybe to have the infinite shield you keep telling us about.

Because magic does not dissipate, as i said, Kain is the regulator for magic, since Kain uses magic to regulate magic, then he would have infnite magic, infnite regulation and then youve got a mutliplier paradox effect of Kain having infnite magic, because he regulates amounts of magic which is also infnite BECAUSe of the infnite magic..etc etc

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because magic does not dissipate, as i said, Kain is the regulator for magic, since Kain uses magic to regulate magic, then he would have infnite magic, infnite regulation and then youve got a mutliplier paradox effect of Kain having infnite magic, because he regulates amounts of magic which is also infnite BECAUSe of the infnite magic..etc etc



.......What?

erm, what kinds and severities of magic has kain shown in the Legacy of kain series? it is VERY limitied. at best, the power of the series lies at full force in the life force of nosgoth, which is a PLANET. the pillars and even the elder god's cycle is concerned with a PLANET. and guess what, kain doesnt have that ENTIRE power. heck even the elder god was subdued by DEBRIS, cursing kain and saying that SUM day hed dig out.


again, can pyron kill the dispair emodied?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because magic does not dissipate, as i said, Kain is the regulator for magic, since Kain uses magic to regulate magic, then he would have infnite magic, infnite regulation and then youve got a mutliplier paradox effect of Kain having infnite magic, because he regulates amounts of magic which is also infnite BECAUSe of the infnite magic..etc etc

Yeah, what?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, what kinds and severities of magic has kain shown in the Legacy of kain series? it is VERY limitied. at best, the power of the series lies at full force in the life force of nosgoth, which is a PLANET. the pillars and even the elder god's cycle is concerned with a PLANET. and guess what, kain doesnt have that ENTIRE power. heck even the elder god was subdued by DEBRIS, cursing kain and saying that SUM day hed dig out.


again, can pyron kill the dispair emodied?


Kain is the balance guardian thus, he is the one who sets the bar for his magic, not some invisble force and not some alternate power, he is his own regulator now, which obviously unless there is major PIS involved means he is not likely to regulate himself to any degree inthis fight. And why do you mention Planet? yes it is a planet....in the Spawn comics dont both God and Satan fight over a single planet Earth? the fact its a planet means nothng. The Elder God was not subdued by Debris so its when you say things like that its obvious youve not played the game even though you claimed ot have done earlier, especially when you say he said he would some day dig out.....no he never said that either, you obviously dont know anything about the game.

Originally posted by Solid Durandal
.......What?


Originally posted by Wil7
Yeah, what?

Its incredibly simple, Kain regulates the power of magic, i.e determining its power, thus, Kain would give himself unlimited magic, and with this unlmited magic, the process starts again because his regulation powers are based on magic as well....thus, infnite magic, controlling infnite magic....you lose

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its incredibly simple, Kain regulates the power of magic, i.e determining its power, thus, Kain would give himself unlimited magic, and with this unlmited magic, the process starts again because his regulation powers are based on magic as well....thus, infnite magic, controlling infnite magic....you lose Lol.

Originally posted by Burning thought
lol this looks like a continuos rant of how much you love Pyron rather than a debate point so ill bold those points which I find relevant.

1. They wouldnt know would they, their only an Earth civilisation of what looks like modern day, but its obvious by the size of Earth in the picture he was not that far away and the planet was simply experiancing diffrences in temperature higher than greenhouse gas but there is no mention of any drastic melting or burning so....so much for the "hell disintegratzor them with hiz aura!"

2. What are you calling mortal Pyron, the guy, no matter who he fought in that form doesnt seem to ever show afaik burning them at all.

3. Is this some kind of gibberish? there are no mortals in this battle, all immortal.

4. Faster once he starts moving and gaining momentum sure, powerful? in what stakes? he couldnt even touch the Elder God yet Kain can, so in those odds Kain is more powerful technically and Pyron is worthless, Kain can take Pyrons soul, thats easier. And Durable? sure but whats the point when you cannot kill Kain? he cant do much at all to kain in this fight, its unrestircted.

5. False, he can create energy from himself, not from nothing, if hes devoured a planet, he can make it a ring, and no, he created the phobos from his own energy, not nothing.

6. whats your argument for Pyron destroying the shield? the repel shield is invulerable against all LOK foes, simple, whats Pyrons standing here? but I could bring in the out of game power of the shield, the shield is powered by Kains magic, which is limitless, thus limitless power for it, Pyron would never penetrate an infnite source but he wont hit kain anyway, hell be soul ripped.

7. Thats a weak argument completly for all these reasons:

A: first, whats funny is that Demitri, a "pathetic" vampire or w/e you would call LOK characters defeated your beloved Pyron

B: LOK bosses is gameplay, your simply jumping on the back of weak debaters like Terry who continually use gameplay, ime not using gameplay however, ime using the story description of what the power does...trying to look down on the attack as weak just by using gameplay is probably the only thing you could come up in this rank to even try and denote it from just annihilating your lover

if you want to play gameplay, Pyron doesnt beat anyone, he has to hit even human opponents in his game many times to defeat them in a K.O lol

8. most of these characters have the same thing, and prove the shield is impenetrable? unlike Kains magic, Pyrons shield which is made from his own energy is not impenetrable.

9. As for your final sad conlusion to your delusional rant this I just had to highlight because its funny "one of the few characters who can be called a God" lol.......get over him... What's funny about this is that you didn't even address my whole post, and it shows in your weak argument.

1. If he was so close, you wanna know how they would know? They would look up in the sky and say,"ZOMG! T3h burning fire man!" No one here has shown any real resistance to heat like that except for maybe Kratos, and I love how you ignored my points of times he HAS caused damage with his energies alone, while mortal I might add.

2. Yet I brought up two examples of when he has. And mortal Pyron is the form Pyron took when he went to Earth to fight the DSers.

3. Nah. They might as well be mortal in this fight.

4. Prove he gains momentum. The Elder God amounts to little more than a big octopus who gets crushed by debris. Pyron has Cosmic Awareness enough to see into separate dimensions, he can see EG. Kain can't take Pyron's soul actually, Pyron easily defeated soul stealers before. And besides, doesn't work on strong opponents.

5. He never devoured Earth, he only converted it into a ring. He created the Phobos at a whim in the palm of his hand, and all those feats are above anything Kain has done.

6. LOK foes are incredibly weak compared to Pyron though, and you are just committing another No-Limits fallacy. Kain's magic is not limitless however, no proof it is at all. Pyron will destroy that puny shield with one hand.

7A. Totally unrelated to my point, and Demitri>>>Any boss of LOK anyway, with the possibly exception of Elder God. And Pyron weakened himself to mortal form, he had to put himself on Demitri's level for it to be a fight, and even Demitri admits it was difficult.

7B. The only time we ever see it in practice is in gameplay, where it doesn't affect bosses, or in other words, strong opponents. But it's okay for you to use gameplay when you debate that FFVII spells are slow, right? dur You make up baseless assumptions, speculation, you use hyperbole and hearsay and outright lie to make Kain out to be sumthin he is not.

Name a single playable character in Darkstalkers who is a normal human. And once again, mortal Pyron.

8. Impenetrable to anyone here, stronger attacks cannot even pierce it at all. So, relatively impregnable.

9. Get over Kain. And noice job not addressing my whole post once again.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
What's funny about this is that you didn't even address my whole post, and it shows in your weak argument.

1. If he was so close, you wanna know how they would know? They would look up in the sky and say,"ZOMG! T3h burning fire man!" No one here has shown any real resistance to heat like that except for maybe Kratos, and I love how you ignored my points of times he HAS caused damage with his energies alone, while mortal I might add.

2. Yet I brought up two examples of when he has. And mortal Pyron is the form Pyron took when he went to Earth to fight the DSers.

3. Nah. They might as well be mortal in this fight.

4. Prove he gains momentum. The Elder God amounts to little more than a big octopus who gets crushed by debris. Pyron has Cosmic Awareness enough to see into separate dimensions, he can see EG. Kain can't take Pyron's soul actually, Pyron easily defeated soul stealers before. And besides, doesn't work on strong opponents.

5. He never devoured Earth, he only converted it into a ring. He created the Phobos at a whim in the palm of his hand, and all those feats are above anything Kain has done.

6. LOK foes are incredibly weak compared to Pyron though, and you are just committing another No-Limits fallacy. Kain's magic is not limitless however, no proof it is at all. Pyron will destroy that puny shield with one hand.

7A. Totally unrelated to my point, and Demitri>>>Any boss of LOK anyway, with the possibly exception of Elder God. And Pyron weakened himself to mortal form, he had to put himself on Demitri's level for it to be a fight, and even Demitri admits it was difficult.

7B. The only time we ever see it in practice is in gameplay, where it doesn't affect bosses, or in other words, strong opponents. But it's okay for you to use gameplay when you debate that FFVII spells are slow, right? dur You make up baseless assumptions, speculation, you use hyperbole and hearsay and outright lie to make Kain out to be sumthin he is not.

Name a single playable character in Darkstalkers who is a normal human. And once again, mortal Pyron.

8. Impenetrable to anyone here, stronger attacks cannot even pierce it at all. So, relatively impregnable.

9. Get over Kain. And noice job not addressing my whole post once again.

Because most of it is irrelevent.

1. Show me him causing this damage, either way, the heat shown in the image you have shown shows Pyron obviously not too far because otherwise Earth would be a speck, its within sight distance, there is no disintegration aura in your images so far, go and find some please.

2. But he wasnt mortal so your inventing this or? can you show me where it says he was mortal, for all you know it was just Pyron fighting at a smaller size.

3. Well no because Pyron cannot kill kain and either way, all of them are immortal...so you fail

4. Sure, show me that image where he is moving away from Earth into the distance, he gains momentum before he goes at any speed. He didnt get crushed....he is the one bringing down the city with his tentacles so no, he did it, hes not getting crushed at all.....thats not true at all, how do you know he can see the EG? a lot of characters thoughout LOK can look through dimensions, EG is not simply in another dimension, he is a multi dimensional being of peculier characritics.

Also you keep saying strong opponents, well in the face of this attack Pyron is a weak opponent, he has zero soul resistances, show me him with resistance against someone using soul attacks on him please? only then wil you have any grounds to debate on.

5. Their worthless in this fight, creating phobos will only lose him the fight since the only way he could win is if he keeps Kain under constant assault.

6. THats not a no limits fallacy at all. infnite magic powering a shield that is made from magic means the shield is invulerable and every use of the shield and the story description says it is unbreakable....Pyron has nothing to break it with, or are you simply assuming just because hes got physical strength he would automatically defeat it? "sigh"

7A. it was related because you went on about size nosnense when Demitri is not large, infact half of the characters if not all in DS are far far smallr than pyron.

7B: The spell itself is stated in storyline and descroption as what it does, the gameplay is irrelvent, if your using gameplay then you fail, thats not what you use in debates, gamepaly mechanics are not canon....your assuming again by calling Bosses "strong" opponents when youve not played the game, Azimoth as ive said to Terry is a boss who is simply human mostly, and dies in one hit from the reaver like all enemies, teh reaver uses the same powers as Soul rip, soul rip is just cheap because its ranged thus gameplay mechnic, either way, the ability is there and annhilates pyron who from what youve shown has zero soul resistances.

I dont use gameplay in FF battles, only the non gameplay, non player controlled spell cast time sequence.

Donavan is human is he not? not normal but when is his resistance given to the level of pyron? a lot of characters are not large or overally physically powerful yetin-game can still tool Pyron.

8. show proof of this.

9. wow, good counter point....As I said, it was half irrelvent post, mostly you laying out the pyron love.....

Kain tools this physical powerhouse with ease by using a multiude of powerful attacks either using soul powers, mind perhaps, and this isnt even bringing in Scion Kain from the end of defiance who would wipe this guy out in likely inumerable ways but that would be unfair.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Lol.

thats what I do when I see most of your posts, although what you laughing at, cannot come to grip with Pyron losing? oh deary me

http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=58699226qn7.jpg

down the bottom of this scan you can see clearly how he is no htat fast at all, it shows he needs to build up a momentum in his fetal position, meaning he can do less attacks while moving at speed, infact his large form seems to have less real speed feats than his smaller one. This one shows he has to start moving before he can hit any real speed.

Thus annhilating any real speed advantage against Kain and perhaps even against Dante since Dante can also slow/time power.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because most of it is irrelevent.

1. Show me him causing this damage, either way, the heat shown in the image you have shown shows Pyron obviously not too far because otherwise Earth would be a speck, its within sight distance, there is no disintegration aura in your images so far, go and find some please.

2. But he wasnt mortal so your inventing this or? can you show me where it says he was mortal, for all you know it was just Pyron fighting at a smaller size.

3. Well no because Pyron cannot kill kain and either way, all of them are immortal...so you fail

4. Sure, show me that image where he is moving away from Earth into the distance, he gains momentum before he goes at any speed. He didnt get crushed....he is the one bringing down the city with his tentacles so no, he did it, hes not getting crushed at all.....thats not true at all, how do you know he can see the EG? a lot of characters thoughout LOK can look through dimensions, EG is not simply in another dimension, he is a multi dimensional being of peculier characritics.

Also you keep saying strong opponents, well in the face of this attack Pyron is a weak opponent, he has zero soul resistances, show me him with resistance against someone using soul attacks on him please? only then wil you have any grounds to debate on.

5. Their worthless in this fight, creating phobos will only lose him the fight since the only way he could win is if he keeps Kain under constant assault.

6. THats not a no limits fallacy at all. infnite magic powering a shield that is made from magic means the shield is invulerable and every use of the shield and the story description says it is unbreakable....Pyron has nothing to break it with, or are you simply assuming just because hes got physical strength he would automatically defeat it? "sigh"

7A. it was related because you went on about size nosnense when Demitri is not large, infact half of the characters if not all in DS are far far smallr than pyron.

7B: The spell itself is stated in storyline and descroption as what it does, the gameplay is irrelvent, if your using gameplay then you fail, thats not what you use in debates, gamepaly mechanics are not canon....your assuming again by calling Bosses "strong" opponents when youve not played the game, Azimoth as ive said to Terry is a boss who is simply human mostly, and dies in one hit from the reaver like all enemies, teh reaver uses the same powers as Soul rip, soul rip is just cheap because its ranged thus gameplay mechnic, either way, the ability is there and annhilates pyron who from what youve shown has zero soul resistances.

I dont use gameplay in FF battles, only the non gameplay, non player controlled spell cast time sequence.

Donavan is human is he not? not normal but when is his resistance given to the level of pyron? a lot of characters are not large or overally physically powerful yetin-game can still tool Pyron.

8. show proof of this.

9. wow, good counter point....As I said, it was half irrelvent post, mostly you laying out the pyron love.....

Kain tools this physical powerhouse with ease by using a multiude of powerful attacks either using soul powers, mind perhaps, and this isnt even bringing in Scion Kain from the end of defiance who would wipe this guy out in likely inumerable ways but that would be unfair.



thats what I do when I see most of your posts, although what you laughing at, cannot come to grip with Pyron losing? oh deary me Copout.

1. He was too far to be seen as the human's say, they can't find the source of the heat. So either he was small, or he was too far away. And dude are you fvcking blind? I just TOLD YOU two instances where Pyron's mere presence or energies killed or injured people.

2. I have proven it MULTIPLE times that Pyron limited his power to ,"Fight under Earth's rules." Everyone else has gotten then and accepted it, everyone except you.

3. No, weak ass pathetic LOK beings cannot kill Kain. No-Limit Fallacy once again.

4. Since you already posted it I won't show shit. But you cannot prove any momentum was gained, hell, he was not shown to get momentum in a later scan either. Pyron saw into Makai and scanned it in an instant along with Earth, he clearly was not talking about the humans being the great creatures he would one day fight.

Show Kain resisting matter manipulation. Or being absorbed. Pyron has canonically fought and easily defeated a soul stealer, Bishamon.

5. He matter manipulated Earth. He will manipulate Kain and turn him into a nice necklace.

6. Yeah, it is. Under what basis is Kain's magic infinite? Kain says it is unbreakable...And that is only unbreakable to weak ass LOK characters. Then again, you argued PR Beyonder cannot break the shield so this should come as no surprise. I say Pyron can break it because Pyron's eyeball amounts to more than all of Nosgoth, he can hold Kain's entire world in his hand and crush it.

7A. Kay...And he was also smaller and weaker, he limited himself. So...Who cares?

7B. We only see it put to action in gameplay. You did use materia gameplay in debates. You argued that friggin spells take several seconds to do, despite the fact that in cutscenes, they do not. So no, don't cover your ass now, man up and admit you used gameplay against FFVII. And now that I think about it...What is to stop Pyron from staying out of Soul Rips range? I mean, Pyron's arm is longer than ten Nosgoth's...Kain's Soul Rip won't hit him from that far.

Which is in gameplay. Fvckin fail.

No, he is actually not human at all. He is half vampire, and his sword houses the power of four different Gods, he is one of the strongest characters in the series. And that is mortal Pyron.

8. Well pretty much every gameplay and any other depiction of the shield show it never being penetrated...

9. Fail. They were all valid points.

See, here is the thing, Pyron is NOT just a physical powerhouse like you would like everyone to believe. Mind powers? Pyron's are greater, manipulating the minds of all of Makai ftw. Soul powers? Not enough range, sorry. End of Defiance Scion Kain? Completely featless based on your own speculation, GTFO. I could speculate that since Pyron has absorbed countless galaxies that he can destroy them and is as big as them, but I do not.

Nah, I'm just laughing that you continue your regulating bullshit, when you said that those powers would allow Kain to pwn the Spectre from DC comics, now THAT was funny.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
Copout.

1. He was too far to be seen as the human's say, they can't find the source of the heat. So either he was small, or he was too far away. And dude are you fvcking blind? I just TOLD YOU two instances where Pyron's mere presence or energies killed or injured people.

2. I have proven it MULTIPLE times that Pyron limited his power to ,"Fight under Earth's rules." Everyone else has gotten then and accepted it, everyone except you.

3. No, weak ass pathetic LOK beings cannot kill Kain. No-Limit Fallacy once again.

4. Since you already posted it I won't show shit. But you cannot prove any momentum was gained, hell, he was not shown to get momentum in a later scan either. Pyron saw into Makai and scanned it in an instant along with Earth, he clearly was not talking about the humans being the great creatures he would one day fight.

Show Kain resisting matter manipulation. Or being absorbed. Pyron has canonically fought and easily defeated a soul stealer, Bishamon.

5. He matter manipulated Earth. He will manipulate Kain and turn him into a nice necklace.

6. Yeah, it is. Under what basis is Kain's magic infinite? Kain says it is unbreakable...And that is only unbreakable to weak ass LOK characters. Then again, you argued PR Beyonder cannot break the shield so this should come as no surprise. I say Pyron can break it because Pyron's eyeball amounts to more than all of Nosgoth, he can hold Kain's entire world in his hand and crush it.

7A. Kay...And he was also smaller and weaker, he limited himself. So...Who cares?

7B. We only see it put to action in gameplay. You did use materia gameplay in debates. You argued that friggin spells take several seconds to do, despite the fact that in cutscenes, they do not. So no, don't cover your ass now, man up and admit you used gameplay against FFVII. And now that I think about it...What is to stop Pyron from staying out of Soul Rips range? I mean, Pyron's arm is longer than ten Nosgoth's...Kain's Soul Rip won't hit him from that far.

Which is in gameplay. Fvckin fail.

No, he is actually not human at all. He is half vampire, and his sword houses the power of four different Gods, he is one of the strongest characters in the series. And that is mortal Pyron.

8. Well pretty much every gameplay and any other depiction of the shield show it never being penetrated...

9. Fail. They were all valid points.

See, here is the thing, Pyron is NOT just a physical powerhouse like you would like everyone to believe. Mind powers? Pyron's are greater, manipulating the minds of all of Makai ftw. Soul powers? Not enough range, sorry. End of Defiance Scion Kain? Completely featless based on your own speculation, GTFO. I could speculate that since Pyron has absorbed countless galaxies that he can destroy them and is as big as them, but I do not.

Nah, I'm just laughing that you continue your regulating bullshit, when you said that those powers would allow Kain to pwn the Spectre from DC comics, now THAT was funny.

if your going to have a tantrum then point out the important stuff that will totally win you this debate that ive apprently copout from.

1. but have you shown me? you claim that his presence destroyed the atlantic ocean as he hit it but not from range with an Aura.

2. I dont remember seeing the actual proof of this, its logical since otherwise he could have punched the Earth into oblivion at full size, but can you prove that in this smaller form he actually has less power? since apprently when Demitri absorbs Pyron he gets the full wallop.

3. No its not a no lmits fallacy at all its a character rule based on his immortality that Kain simply cannot die, Pyron has no other tools that would allow him to win this battle than any of the LOK characters, infact most of them have far more tools and powers, not just "big hands to smash puny vampire!"

4. As i said, him looking into Makai (which ive not yet seen proof of like half of your points) means nothing to the EG point. Yes it does show his speed, it clearly shows he is moving, it clearly shows that the guy isnt going lightspeed otherwise we wouldnt be able to see him on the comic, the guys not doing any great speed feat, in the first image hes floating there, in the next image he is in a fetal position and has moved what? several thousands of miles only...he prob was going about the same speed as a human shuttle at that pount, thus, its either momentum OR, he is usually that speed anyway.

5. He didnt matter manipulate anything, prove your half @ssed and illogical claims, the guy simply uses energy, usually his own body to make things.

6. Ive proven how Kains magic is infnite both to you and Durandal, you even laughed but since you cannot counter claim this, then his magic is infnite, if you are the one who rules magic and sets the bar of its power, then your not going to regulate yourself to be weak in this fight. Its unbreakable according to Kain and the out of gameplay description in manuals. Once again, youve made another "he iz big manz and can destroyers anyons with his uber size", this would be worthless, Jedah amounts to less size than Pyrons eyeball......Jedah would snuff out Pyron, what about PR beyonder, he takes human form, is he a target for bigzor pyronz to crush like an ant then? PR beyonder power level is equelly infnite so technically you would come to a time where an unstoppale force hits an imovable object.

7A. show me he was actually weak and not just smaller?

7B. That doesnt matter at all, its got out of game and in storyline descriptons on what it does so what it does in gameplay is irrelvent. No as ive already told you, ive not used gameplay against FF, your not playing the game while the spell animation is working....in cutscenes weve seen several seemingly weak materia, some of which people have still not told me what they even are, if their materia, ive watched AC recently, the materia that summons Bahumaht is fairly slow, the materia on the Remnants arms need to charge to fire as well....

lol so Pyrons goal is to keep out of range? great....do you know what limits this strategy, beauties such as teleport, time slow, etc etc, Pyron cannot escape kain.

Theres still a lot of weak characters, what about fish man? what about those bug things from makai whats their feats?

8. oh i see so we assume its invulerable? lol, whats the most powerful non gameplay, canon thing that hit the shield? has the shield shown to stop soul attacks, mind powers and it would definaltey be more of a hinderance to time attacks.

9. what even "Pyron is the only one considereable of a God" or w/e the nonsense you siad.

Show me him manipulating the minds of all makai please. end of deifance Kain is featless but I dont speculate, I simply watch the storyline instead of just pressing the esc key. On what logical speculation does any of that add to Pyron being galaxy size? weve already seen him come back after eating galaxies and he is the same size as before, the guy obviously doesnt get any bigger.

The specter is magical, you prob one of the people who go "bigzor godsor pwn all", your a title lover and you misuse them, infact in the Kratos thread ime surprised you didnt shout "hez the god of war he wins!!", ive already proven the regulation, its a simple process, Kain regulates magic, he has no limit to magic unless he gives himself one, thats a simple concept to understand.

I'll post my response in this thread when I collect all the proof you are whining about...Despite the fact that even though you always demand proof you never seem to provide it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
B: LOK bosses is gameplay, your simply jumping on the back of weak debaters like Terry who continually use gameplay, ime not using gameplay however, ime using the story description of what the power does...trying to look down on the attack as weak just by using gameplay is probably the only thing you could come up in this rank to even try and denote it from just annihilating your lover

Continually using gameplay... buddy.. the spell IS ONLY gameplay.

Story description? The spell wasn't even IN the story, it was just an optional spell, and once you acquired it you get a description, it wasn't a "story" description.

WHO has kain ever soul ripped? Please give me a name.

Oh you can't because he has never ever used it in the story, the spell is only GAMEPLAY.

Its like saying Sephiroths heartless angel will put every deadly status on Galactus because the description of the spell said so.

Keep in mind that the spell is OPTIONAL, and never EVER appeared or was ever heard of again in the next 4 sequals.


I'm a weak debator? No, i just don't buy your kain bullshit how you try to amp him up as the most powerful character ever, i feel sorry for whoever buys it, i mean come on.. remember when you said this against Kain vs Living Tribunal?

Originally posted by Burning thought
so really then theres nothing that can stop the LT and so this is a rubbish thread if he can delete anyone and anything, can he delete galactus, the one above all perhaps, or Eternity?

i dont think he can delete all of those, and since kain is not part of the marval universe his power is not comparable to anything within it, he could be immune to such deletion, he could simply TK LT so he cant do anything and then stab him in through all his heads and kill him instantly

yellow man PWNED!!!

also does he have a soul, instant Kain win to take his soul, and dont say no if you dont have a source that says he doesnt or proof, i know for one thing that kain can only be killed by the wraith blade....deletion is like being killed basically...but so is soul taking, if Kain can just cast the soul stealing spell LT is dead

yellow fool dead again....



Or when you tried to make kains launching momentum movement at 4:45 faster then Loz' speed

SM8igGoaBY8

Originally posted by Terryc250
Continually using gameplay... buddy.. the spell IS ONLY gameplay.

Story description? The spell wasn't even IN the story, it was just an optional spell, and once you acquired it you get a description, it wasn't a "story" description.

WHO has kain ever soul ripped? Please give me a name.

Oh you can't because he has never ever used it in the story, the spell is only GAMEPLAY.

Its like saying Sephiroths heartless angel will put every deadly status on Galactus because the description of the spell said so.

Keep in mind that the spell is OPTIONAL, and never EVER appeared or was ever heard of again in the next 4 sequals.


I'm a weak debator? No, i just don't buy your kain bullshit how you try to amp him up as the most powerful character ever, i feel sorry for whoever buys it, i mean come on.. remember when you said this against Kain vs Living Tribunal?




Or when you tried to make kains launching momentum movement at 4:45 faster then Loz' speed

SM8igGoaBY8

Yes your continually using gameplay and so is jaxx when trying to debate against LOK, the spell itself is not only a storyline described move, since Kains diologue is simply that, storyline diologue, it doesnt say a single "click this to gain etc etc (insert gameplay terms here) etc etc", it doesnt say anything like that, its a storyline description while the player is not playing the game thus...its not gameplay, its storyline, not to mention its in the manuel, it doesnt have ot be used in a cinematic to be an ability, there is no rule for that in abilities.

You are weak, you use mostly gameplay to stop me in a debate which in the end falls back on you. Hes not the most powerful character ever, but one of the most powerful in gaming is a definite, thing is, i dont amp him, you claim I am then dont provide proof of this. Whats funny is that I said that prob 2/3 years ago and was mostly joking throughout like "kain would jsut stab it in the face!", wheras your goofing up right now...

I still think he is nearly as fast as Loz, Loz took a second to reach where he was going, Kain took perhaps half a second to cover perhaps half the space Loz did, tehrefore Kain and Loz would be the same speed, thing is, kain has not been given the chance to show ho fast he goes over long distances anyway....

there is no momentum there at all before Kain instantly blasts forth.



Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I'll post my response in this thread when I collect all the proof you are whining about...Despite the fact that even though you always demand proof you never seem to provide it.

I always give proof, as ive shown before, if ive not given it, its likely in the Respect thread ive made for Kain which is on the first page of the respect section.

what do you even need to know? you should know the proof ive provided by now....

what could you possibly even need proof on? you already know Kain can teleport, Kain has these soul powers, with that proof alone Kain can defeat Pyron, you already know Kain cannot die simply because hes not allowed, you know Kain can dimension jump so distance is hardly an issue, not to mention time freeze opponents, Pyron can be defeated in one shot from almost anything Kain has, I KNOW Pyron has shown no resistance to time stopping powers or at least youve never used it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes your continually using gameplay and so is jaxx when trying to debate against LOK, the spell itself is not only a storyline described move, since Kains diologue is simply that, storyline diologue, it doesnt say a single "click this to gain etc etc (insert gameplay terms here) etc etc", it doesnt say anything like that, its a storyline description while the player is not playing the game thus...its not gameplay, its storyline, not to mention its in the manuel, it doesnt have ot be used in a cinematic to be an ability, there is no rule for that in abilities.

Again, the spell is ONLY gameplay, because the fact is.. Kain has NEVER used it in the story, never used it on anyone, its NOT storyline dialogue because it has nothing to do with the storyline, its optional, you gain the optional spell, and Kain give you a description of the spell you acquire, why do you keep saying its storyline if its optional and has nothing to do with the story? Is knights of the round part of the FF7 story as well? After you breed golden chocobos to get to round island there is some dialogue before you get the knights of the round materia but that doesn't make it part of the actual ff7 story, when we debate Cloud should we automatically give him the optional knights of the round materia by default then?



I am weak.. ? .. You're bringing up a gameplay move and telling people to not use gameplay.. Kain has done nothing at all to put him even close to a high tier character, like really.. answer me this, what has kain done? His greatest power is an optional spell that was unheard of for the next 4 sequals after like thousands of years passed? The thing is, you actually thought kain would beat the living tribunal, hell you even said:

Originally posted by Burning thought

tribunal can do nothing to Kain.....wether Kain can do anything to tribunal or not is only measurable by time since Kain evolves with new powers and skills every 100 years or so....so he can overcome Tribunals power eventually no matter how powerful is....what can tribunal do, blow up galaxies and planets and stuff


Yeah thats because the character is Kain, and you are Burning Thought, any person would see that he pulled back and launched himself, he doesn't move that fast in just regular movement speed, even normal human beings can launch themselves and leap a couple meters in under a second, besides the fact that he only moved about 4 meters while Loz moves like across an entire church in about a shorter time frame

Originally posted by Terryc250
Again, the spell is ONLY gameplay, because the fact is.. Kain has NEVER used it in the story, never used it on anyone, its NOT storyline dialogue because it has nothing to do with the storyline, its optional, you gain the optional spell, and Kain give you a description of the spell you acquire, why do you keep saying its storyline if its optional and has nothing to do with the story? Is knights of the round part of the FF7 story as well? After you breed golden chocobos to get to round island there is some dialogue before you get the knights of the round materia but that doesn't make it part of the actual ff7 story, when we debate Cloud should we automatically give him the optional knights of the round materia by default then?



I am weak.. ? .. You're bringing up a gameplay move and telling people to not use gameplay.. Kain has done nothing at all to put him even close to a high tier character, like really.. answer me this, what has kain done? His greatest power is an optional spell that was unheard of for the next 4 sequals after like thousands of years passed? The thing is, you actually thought kain would beat the living tribunal, hell you even said:




Yeah thats because the character is Kain, and you are Burning Thought, any person would see that he pulled back and launched himself, he doesn't move that fast in just regular movement speed, even normal human beings can launch themselves and leap a couple meters in under a second, besides the fact that he only moved about 4 meters while Loz moves like across an entire church in about a shorter time frame

No its storyline dilogue, as i said before, your simply ignoring it now, its not a gameplay dilogue at all, there is no way that

"'Tis a spell worthy of the Necromancer himself. This allows me to dissect a creature's soul from its vessel of flesh. For these poor wretches, only oblivion awaits."

is at all gameplay diologue, its a kain personal story script, your not playing while he gets it either, it doesnt have to be in a cinematic to excist as a canon ability.

also is Cloud the only one who can use KoTR? does Cloud say a diologue like the one above for Kain? you keep comparing Materia which is completyl diffrent so id like to see how many simularties you can compare...

IMe bringing up a move that is much like every character move from Kratos' powers to Dantes, described in the manuel, with story elements linked to them in-game like character spoken story dailogue that ONLY Kain can use in the game and cannot be shared with anyone. Well Kains destroyed a godlike entity that could rip apart precious FF unvierse with ease for one, defeated an entire race when younger and far weaker, even youner than that Kain defeats the circe of nine, two of which reality warped the north into Dark Eden, all of the wizards having powerful varities of magic from spirit, to dimentional powers, to the mind. The guys defeated all types of entities and this was perhaps at his weakest, as his elder form hes already beaten most entties and defeats Elder God later in Defiance to regain his full power and potential.

Whats sephiroth done with the Negative lifestream, yet you constantly use it in debates? nothing.....whats he done in general? very little, he has mostly failed attempts yet you and other FF fans hype him up to a god level when hes barely medicore.

That was a blunder 3 years ago, your making a blunder now, see the diffrence?

false, he doesnt move an entire church, hes at the back of the row of pews and Tifa is in the center, thus he probably moves about 7/8 meters at most, kain moves about 4 meters faster than Loz moves the 8....Kain moves it in about half a second, he doesnt move back at all, he slashes once then is instantly propelling himself forwards, he doesnt even leave the ground so he doesnt leap....

Originally posted by leonheartmm
erm, what kinds and severities of magic has kain shown in the Legacy of kain series? it is VERY limitied. at best, the power of the series lies at full force in the life force of nosgoth, which is a PLANET. the pillars and even the elder god's cycle is concerned with a PLANET. and guess what, kain doesnt have that ENTIRE power. heck even the elder god was subdued by DEBRIS, cursing kain and saying that SUM day hed dig out.


again, can pyron kill the dispair emodied?

Darling, it should be noted that technically Dante didn't KILL Despair Embodied- just "banished" him, destroying his physical form with demonic energy...banishing a physical avatar of an abstract=\=actually killing him...though that's a feat in itself.
Just to clarify things a bit And it's unknown whether or not Pyron's physical form can be distorted in the same way as it happened to Despair Embodied.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No its storyline dilogue, as i said before, your simply ignoring it now, its not a gameplay dilogue at all, there is no way that

"'Tis a spell worthy of the Necromancer himself. This allows me to dissect a creature's soul from its vessel of flesh. For these poor wretches, only oblivion awaits."

is at all gameplay diologue, its a kain personal story script, your not playing while he gets it either, it doesnt have to be in a cinematic to excist as a canon ability.
That has NOTHING to do with the story, its a description of the optional spell, you don't need to get that spell to continue on with the story, its how a description of Sephiroths heartless angel is how it induces every status on its foes, but theres no reason to assume that it can do it on higher beings like Eternity for example.

The question is, WHO has Kain ever "soul ripped" ?


Why does it matter if Cloud isn't the only one who can use materia? I've asked you for proof before of Kain being the only person able to learn spells and you failed to provide me any. You're really going to claim Kain is the only being that can use a spell in the LOK universe? Even Madmel disagrees with you, what relevance does it even have if more then one person can use the materia/spell?


Give me an example of a debate of Dante/Kratos, because the debates ive seen, they were using dantes style which he always has, or Kratos' powers that he actually has like the sword of olympus which he actually uses in canon.

Kain destroyed Elder God? No he didn't, he basically only repelled him, nor does Elder God have much feats besides having souls and turning the wheel of fate, in terms of power what feats does he have?


What is the lifestream capable of? Well it was able to destroy meteor, its the source of life on the planet, its the source of power on the planet, its the source of energy, its the source of magic, Sephiroth gained control over it with the j-cells, he created the SHM, the SHM used a fraction of its powers as magic, Sephiroth appeared for 10 minutes and displayed it, Kain had 4 entire sequals to show his "spirit death" yet the name was never even uttered.


It was 2 years ago, and your special version of Kain hasn't changed at all.


... He slashes once, pulls back and launches, stop denying this:
http://i35.tinypic.com/rljrww.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2d6rs4m.jpg

If he can move like that instantly without having to launch then ill give you that hes fast movement speed, however its not hard to launch yourself and move a few meters, go ahead and try launching yourself and leaping a couple meters.

Loz' on the other hand boots a bench at Tifa, and is still at the same spot even after the bench has gone off screen, he doesn't even start to move until she hits it
http://i35.tinypic.com/sx2ejl.jpg
As Tifa hits it, she doesn't even have time to change her face expression because Loz is already behind her.

watch at 3:12
ChidKmyMXyA


Theres a huge difference in using momentum to travel a few feet, and travelling across a church with just movement speed.

Originally posted by Terryc250
That has NOTHING to do with the story, its a description of the optional spell, you don't need to get that spell to continue on with the story, its how a description of Sephiroths heartless angel is how it induces every status on its foes, but theres no reason to assume that it can do it on higher beings like Eternity for example.

The question is, WHO has Kain ever "soul ripped" ?


Why does it matter if Cloud isn't the only one who can use materia? I've asked you for proof before of Kain being the only person able to learn spells and you failed to provide me any. You're really going to claim Kain is the only being that can use a spell in the LOK universe? Even Madmel disagrees with you, what relevance does it even have if more then one person can use the materia/spell?


Give me an example of a debate of Dante/Kratos, because the debates ive seen, they were using dantes style which he always has, or Kratos' powers that he actually has like the sword of olympus which he actually uses in canon.

Kain destroyed Elder God? No he didn't, he basically only repelled him, nor does Elder God have much feats besides having souls and turning the wheel of fate, in terms of power what feats does he have?


What is the lifestream capable of? Well it was able to destroy meteor, its the source of life on the planet, its the source of power on the planet, its the source of energy, its the source of magic, Sephiroth gained control over it with the j-cells, he created the SHM, the SHM used a fraction of its powers as magic, Sephiroth appeared for 10 minutes and displayed it, Kain had 4 entire sequals to show his "spirit death" yet the name was never even uttered.


It was 2 years ago, and your special version of Kain hasn't changed at all.


... He slashes once, pulls back and launches, stop denying this:
http://i35.tinypic.com/rljrww.jpg
http://i38.tinypic.com/2d6rs4m.jpg

If he can move like that instantly without having to launch then ill give you that hes fast movement speed, however its not hard to launch yourself and move a few meters, go ahead and try launching yourself and leaping a couple meters.

Loz' on the other hand boots a bench at Tifa, and is still at the same spot even after the bench has gone off screen, he doesn't even start to move until she hits it
http://i35.tinypic.com/sx2ejl.jpg
As Tifa hits it, she doesn't even have time to change her face expression because Loz is already behind her.

watch at 3:12
ChidKmyMXyA


Theres a huge difference in using momentum to travel a few feet, and travelling across a church with just movement speed.

But its not, its not giving gameplay effects, as you said, Heartless angel gameplay description which is not storyline says status effects, the gameplay description of Spirit death is:

"instantly kills non boss enemies"

but ime not talking about gameplay, ime talking about storyline text, show me the storyline text of Kinghts of the round?

You see you cant answer that, it matters because if several diffrent characters can and WILL actually use the same power and its selectable by the player then its non canon, thats another wya of knowing the canon of an ability, wheras like every canon ability in fiction, Kains abilities are unique to him and can be used only for him, because in the game he is known as the only vampire to use those peticulour powers, no other being in the LOK universe afa remember use Kains spirit death, not to mension its not a interchangable power like materia, materia are just items, thats all, their not like magic abilities at all. This is why you cant win debates, because you dont understand what Canon is, debating from your point of view, by asking "how do you know nobody else can use Kains powers" thats like me saying "how do we know Wolverine cant use HOTU powerz!!!" because it never happens understand?

In this debate Kratos powers such as Atlas quake are used, same with his other skills he gains, in the Kain vs Dante thread (use the search function its easy to find) all his styles, guns and weapons regardless of being shown in storyline have been used, because most of them are canon if not all. THeir not like interchangable FF materia that are completly gameplay

NO i asked for feats like you just did, not what its capable of, I can give you a long list of what Kain is capable of, but you ask for real feats, Sephiroth hsa very few, mostly failures.

It has because I no longer consider LT Kain material to fight because I now know who LT is, its been only minutes however and your alrdy going on about Sephiroths uber powerz of failure, failing to understand whats canon or gameplay among other things in this single post.

He slashes and then moves only his arm backwards, not his body, he doesnt pull back and lunges with momentum and then he moves instantly forward without even using his legs...

He moves perhaps half the distance Loz moves in less time. He moves incredibly fast, at short range he would Hit loz before Loz hits him thats for sure, ofc regardless Loz couldnt do anything, hitting kain would prob break his arm but still....launching yourself means moving your body, moving your arm back is not launching yourself....sry...

also these youtube vids are not as high quality as the real thing, ive recently picked up AC and apart from being a fairly sub par film ive seen how Loz isnt as far as it would seem in that video, the guy is perhaps only about 7/8 meters away, shes in the middle and Loz is about 5 pews down, the place itself is not that large either.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But its not, its not giving gameplay effects, as you said, Heartless angel gameplay description which is not storyline says status effects, the gameplay description of Spirit death is:

"instantly kills non boss enemies"

but ime not talking about gameplay, ime talking about storyline text, show me the storyline text of Kinghts of the round?
Thats not a storyline description, because it has nothing to do with the storyline, its just a description, the style they developed BO1 is by using voices and not text, does that make every single thing part of the plot? No, are all the common chained up grunts screaming "help me help me help me help me help me" like a million times part of the actual plot? No.

Even looking through the LOK plot guide, Spirit Death was never mentioned anywhere in the story.

And once you reached Round Island, there was some dialogue when you entered the cave, i just don't exactly remember the quote.


uhh Materia is canon though, you see it in AC don't you? The thing is we don't see any of these spells in any other sequal or even hear the name ever. You keep saying "kains abilities are unique to him" and i'm asking you, wheres your evidence that no other beings can learn the spells? Vorador can learn spells, any other strong vampire can learn spells as well. Just because it doesn't happen it doesn't mean its not possible. I said if there were any other vampires or characters. Wolverine? Who knows. Adam Warlock? Sure. Galactus? Sure. Eternity? Sure. Richards? Probably.

So unless you give me evidence that Kains is the only vampire capable of learning spells, my point stands.


I asked you for an example of a debate, show me a link, no one really debates gameplay moves because they're inaccurate, we debate using feats and canon abilities, again Dante's styles are canon, in every game he has trickster, etc.

Materia IS canon, the type of materia that the players acquire in the game, and the actual materia Cloud and co acquired in the canon story are different however. Materia are optional, Spells are optional, Cloud and Co could've missed a materia in the actual canon storyline whereas the player gained every single materia in the entire game, or Cloud and co could've gained a materia that you couldn't get in the game (bahamut sin) vice versa.



And i gave you feats of the lifestream, it spawned all the life on the planet, it is basically the source of the planet itself, it destroyed meteor, it lent its magic to all materia, Holy,Meteor,every element, it powered the planet with energy.

Sephiroth has very few? ... Kain has ZERO.


Uhh I used Sephiroths gameplay moves as an example, your the one who started talking about Sephiroth and his actual canon abilities.. Sephiroths "uber power of failure"? Better then Burning Thoughts god-killing version of Kain.
He slashes and then moves only his arm backwards, not his body, he doesnt pull back and lunges with momentum and then he moves instantly forward without even using his legs...



Less time? Are you crazy? Loz is behind Tifa before she can even blink, she was staring at Loz and he was behind her before she even noticed he was gone.

Kain PULLS back, not just his arm, his body shifts back as well, Kain does NOT move that fast with regular movement speed, only you would try to claim he does.

Theres a huge difference in moving a few meters by pulling back and going forward, and moving the distance Loz did with just movement speed.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Darling, it should be noted that technically Dante didn't KILL Despair Embodied- just "banished" him, destroying his physical form with demonic energy...banishing a physical avatar of an abstract=\=actually killing him...though that's a feat in itself.
Just to clarify things a bit And it's unknown whether or not Pyron's physical form can be distorted in the same way as it happened to Despair Embodied. First of all, you sound pretty.

Pyron doesn't have a physical form when he is at his strongest actually, at his most powerful he is a Cosmic energy being, he however did lower himself to a physical, mortal form to fight the Darkstalkers, which allowed Demitri to best him after a difficult fight, Demitri being the most powerful living Darkstalker at the time mind you. His mortal form is corruptible, Demitri was able to absorb the defeated Pyron using the Midnight Bliss. But even this weakened Pyron by Demitri's own admission was a worthy and powerful opponent, at Pyron's strongest, he could have simply devoured the very planet, adding Earth to just another piece of the many galaxies worth of life he has absorbed.

Also, what exactly is the Despair Embodied? Since I hate Dante and DMC with a seething passion(no offence ) I am not sure.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
First of all, you sound pretty.

Pyron doesn't have a physical form when he is at his strongest actually, at his most powerful he is a Cosmic energy being, he however did lower himself to a physical, mortal form to fight the Darkstalkers, which allowed Demitri to best him after a difficult fight, Demitri being the most powerful living Darkstalker at the time mind you. His mortal form is corruptible, Demitri was able to absorb the defeated Pyron using the Midnight Bliss. But even this weakened Pyron by Demitri's own admission was a worthy and powerful opponent, at Pyron's strongest, he could have simply devoured the very planet, adding Earth to just another piece of the many galaxies worth of life he has absorbed.

Also, what exactly is the Despair Embodied? Since I hate Dante and DMC with a seething passion(no offence ) I am not sure.

An avatar of universal concept of despair- final boss in DMC2 (game with the strongest Dante chronology-wise, yet the suckiest one gameplaywise). In gameplay the thing is faster than you even in normal DT and Sparda form...yet storylinewise it gets beaten by teleporting speedblitz.
In the end it gets disperced by Dante focusing all his demonic energy in his guns to blast through its protection (a simple blast would have achieved nothing, so it was needed to camouflage it as "gunshot"- most demons (minus Dante and his dad) in DMCverse hate guns and have no protection against them as they don't feel the need to protect from such lowly thing- that's why Sparda family trademark technique of charging guns with demonic energy and delievering blasts of said energy in form of gunshots ruled ). Despair Embodied' avatar gets dispersed and disappears...probably banished from that realm.
The dispersion happened cause of very powerful yet very condensed (in shape of bullet) energy blast passing through it.
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Dante vs Despair Embodied

Dante banishes the demonic embodiment of despair (god level being) back to the hell realm with his Jackpot move (charging all his demonic energy in a single gunshot). In fact, Jackpot trick is sort of trojan horse stuff, since demons in DMCverse have developed the art of defence against energy blast, but at the same time looked at bullets as at something "harmless". Dante's legendary father was the first to develop the trick of charging guns with demonic energy, thus disguising blasts as bullets.
-Ht40zJW4Wk
From respect thread. He merely destroys a physical form of Despair Embodied so it gets banished.
If no-CIS\PIS Pyron lacks physical form, then it's one big ass spite despite what some fanboys say.
As for matter manipulation resist, Dante can't resist non-magic based one- statswise DMC2 version can resist spells with matter manip effect from demonic magic by deflecting the energy of said spells...but even if you bring Nocturne into play (basically fanfiction featuring DMC2 Dante), you see that against not demonic\dark magic based opponents on the level of Pyron he's not that good- in the final battle against that universe version of Galactus or something- impersonation of Big Bang- he's one of the most useless characters, despite being the best in the game against demons\corrupted angels.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Thats not a storyline description, because it has nothing to do with the storyline, its just a description, the style they developed BO1 is by using voices and not text, does that make every single thing part of the plot? No, are all the common chained up grunts screaming "help me help me help me help me help me" like a million times part of the actual plot? No.

Even looking through the LOK plot guide, Spirit Death was never mentioned anywhere in the story.

And once you reached Round Island, there was some dialogue when you entered the cave, i just don't exactly remember the quote.


uhh Materia is canon though, you see it in AC don't you? The thing is we don't see any of these spells in any other sequal or even hear the name ever. You keep saying "kains abilities are unique to him" and i'm asking you, wheres your evidence that no other beings can learn the spells? Vorador can learn spells, any other strong vampire can learn spells as well. Just because it doesn't happen it doesn't mean its not possible. I said if there were any other vampires or characters. Wolverine? Who knows. Adam Warlock? Sure. Galactus? Sure. Eternity? Sure. Richards? Probably.

So unless you give me evidence that Kains is the only vampire capable of learning spells, my point stands.


I asked you for an example of a debate, show me a link, no one really debates gameplay moves because they're inaccurate, we debate using feats and canon abilities, again Dante's styles are canon, in every game he has trickster, etc.

Materia IS canon, the type of materia that the players acquire in the game, and the actual materia Cloud and co acquired in the canon story are different however. Materia are optional, Spells are optional, Cloud and Co could've missed a materia in the actual canon storyline whereas the player gained every single materia in the entire game, or Cloud and co could've gained a materia that you couldn't get in the game (bahamut sin) vice versa.



And i gave you feats of the lifestream, it spawned all the life on the planet, it is basically the source of the planet itself, it destroyed meteor, it lent its magic to all materia, Holy,Meteor,every element, it powered the planet with energy.

Sephiroth has very few? ... Kain has ZERO.


Uhh I used Sephiroths gameplay moves as an example, your the one who started talking about Sephiroth and his actual canon abilities.. Sephiroths "uber power of failure"? Better then Burning Thoughts god-killing version of Kain.
He slashes and then moves only his arm backwards, not his body, he doesnt pull back and lunges with momentum and then he moves instantly forward without even using his legs...



Less time? Are you crazy? Loz is behind Tifa before she can even blink, she was staring at Loz and he was behind her before she even noticed he was gone.

Kain PULLS back, not just his arm, his body shifts back as well, Kain does NOT move that fast with regular movement speed, only you would try to claim he does.

Theres a huge difference in moving a few meters by pulling back and going forward, and moving the distance Loz did with just movement speed.

Its a storyline description, its a description based around the games canon, he even talks about a canon character the Necromancer, its storyline, what are you calling storyline? a cinematic? no thats not true at all m8, not at all....

Materia in general ive seen, but what each one really is ime not sure, all ive seen of them is that they simply power you up allowing you to increase your abilities, all they show in AC is in the form of blasts. And ofc summonig that big beast.

So your claiming spiderman could have the power of Galactus? but because nobody can prove nobody apart from Galactus can have his power everyone is apprently free game? well done smart one, this is ridiculous Terry, I could simply claim how do you know Kain doesnt have all of Sephiroths powers? or perhaps the children in AC have the power of Sephiroth and Cloud combined! we jsut dont know it! zomg!! ime sorry Terry, but claiming gameplay is one level of fail, but what this is, is a level of fail beyond any other.

Kain has the power of the Living tribunal then...we just cant prove he doesnt?

Jsut because its in every game its canon? Theres a lot of materia in FF in most games, also look through this thread, youll find people debating using Kratos' powers like Atlas quake.

Sephiroth has failures, thats his few and Kain has the ones ive listed, read my posts through again please.

Theres another fail, you say "god-killing" using titles is another gameplay debate fail. If you would like to know, kain has also the God title.

Just his arm terry, show me where his whole body moves back and not just his arm? there is no happening of this .

Loz moves about 8 meters, Kain moves 4/5 in less time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its a storyline description, its a description based around the games canon, he even talks about a canon character the Necromancer, its storyline, what are you calling storyline? a cinematic? no thats not true at all m8, not at all....

... its not a storyline description because it has nothing to do with the storyline, what part of that don't you understand? If it was a dialogue that had to do with the story and was mandatory to learn like "Now that i have the power to use TK to push over that switch" or something like that then it would be canon to the story.


Huh? Materia are little balls that let you tap into a bit of the lifestreams power to use magic, different materia do different things.


... I have no idea what you're talking about, who said spiderman could have the power of Galactus? Do you even know who Galactus is? He was born before the universe was even created he is the power cosmic itself, spiderman is like a 25 year old human. You're really giving failure examples. Now if we take another human have him get bitten by a radioactive spider, he can have spidermans powers sure. I think your confused, Kain is a vampire, he learned the spells, so what evidence suggests that any other vampire is incapable of learning the spell?

Its funny how you don't seem to realize that all Kain is is simply gameplay, yet you accuse people of just using "gameplay" so you can make up your own bs for kain.


.... this doesn't even need answering.


If the character has the ability in every game then yes, its most likely canon, if it was an optional spell/materia that was unheard of again after 4 sequals, then no it was probably not canon.

Failures as in what? Not killing the protagonist? Gee i wonder, its because he's the antagonist and plots don't normally allow that, so Kains feats is killing people? Show me this "reality warping" thats probably something you just amped up, if they can "reality warp" then they would just warp kain into mush.


Huh? I say god-killing using titles is another gameplay debate fail? I have no idea what you're trying to say. But i don't care what your version of Kain has, i only care about the real Kain.


How can you not see his body shifting back then pushing his weight forward?
http://i34.tinypic.com/2n74glt.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/o7nfoj.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/rljrww.jpg
http://i36.tinypic.com/1z2inic.jpg

Less time? Stop lying, Tifa didn't even have time to blink, Loz travelled further and much faster with just movement speed, Kain had to launch himself and he moved smaller distance in a slower speed.

The difference is Loz doesn't need to shift his weight back then propell forward to move at that speed, he just moves that fast with movement speed, its like saying Kain can punch hard but he has to pull back then propell forward to hit at that strength while Loz can just throw a jab at even higher strength and distance.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain is the balance guardian thus, he is the one who sets the bar for his magic, not some invisble force and not some alternate power, he is his own regulator now, which obviously unless there is major PIS involved means he is not likely to regulate himself to any degree inthis fight. And why do you mention Planet? yes it is a planet....in the Spawn comics dont both God and Satan fight over a single planet Earth? the fact its a planet means nothng. The Elder God was not subdued by Debris so its when you say things like that its obvious youve not played the game even though you claimed ot have done earlier, especially when you say he said he would some day dig out.....no he never said that either, you obviously dont know anything about the game.






Its incredibly simple, Kain regulates the power of magic, i.e determining its power, thus, Kain would give himself unlimited magic, and with this unlmited magic, the process starts again because his regulation powers are based on magic as well....thus, infnite magic, controlling infnite magic....you lose

the magic comes FROM nosgoth u bufoon! it is a LIMITED source. also, if he cud DO that, then why wud he not just destroy the cycle of the souls with pure power and kill the elder god and resurrect razial? why did he need razial's soul and the soul reaver to even ENTER the realm of the elder god and harm him?????? why was he still not able to kill the elder god???? why cudnt he just manipulate reality at a whim instead of going through all the troubles he did?!?!?!!?!?!?!

and no, it seems like YOU havent played the game kid. in the end of defiance, the room the elder god is in starts to crumble taking the elder god down with it

"one day your wretched stagnant soul will finally be mine"

kain: "until then, ud best burrow deep".

the elder god is trapped without much of his power underneath a lot of rubble. AND ur an idiot.

Originally posted by Terryc250
... its not a storyline description because it has nothing to do with the storyline, what part of that don't you understand? If it was a dialogue that had to do with the story and was mandatory to learn like "Now that i have the power to use TK to push over that switch" or something like that then it would be canon to the story.


Huh? Materia are little balls that let you tap into a bit of the lifestreams power to use magic, different materia do different things.


... I have no idea what you're talking about, who said spiderman could have the power of Galactus? Do you even know who Galactus is? He was born before the universe was even created he is the power cosmic itself, spiderman is like a 25 year old human. You're really giving failure examples. Now if we take another human have him get bitten by a radioactive spider, he can have spidermans powers sure. I think your confused, Kain is a vampire, he learned the spells, so what evidence suggests that any other vampire is incapable of learning the spell?

Its funny how you don't seem to realize that all Kain is is simply gameplay, yet you accuse people of just using "gameplay" so you can make up your own bs for kain.


.... this doesn't even need answering.


If the character has the ability in every game then yes, its most likely canon, if it was an optional spell/materia that was unheard of again after 4 sequals, then no it was probably not canon.

Failures as in what? Not killing the protagonist? Gee i wonder, its because he's the antagonist and plots don't normally allow that, so Kains feats is killing people? Show me this "reality warping" thats probably something you just amped up, if they can "reality warp" then they would just warp kain into mush.


Huh? I say god-killing using titles is another gameplay debate fail? I have no idea what you're trying to say. But i don't care what your version of Kain has, i only care about the real Kain.


How can you not see his body shifting back then pushing his weight forward?
http://i34.tinypic.com/2n74glt.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/o7nfoj.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/rljrww.jpg

Less time? Stop lying, Tifa didn't even have time to blink, Loz travelled further and much faster with just movement speed, Kain had to launch himself and he moved smaller distance in a slower speed.

The difference is Loz doesn't need to shift his weight back then propell forward to move at that speed, he just moves that fast with movement speed, its like saying Kain can punch hard but he has to pull back then propell forward to hit at that strength while Loz can just throw a jab at even higher strength and distance.

Ofc its story, it mentions story characters, what part of that dont you understand? what was your argument even? all youve done is compared it to materia then ive destroyed all of them points sicne Materia has zero of what this spell has going for it, this has actual storyline characters mentioned in a cinematic,

I know what they are, and in the AC, they only gave the remnants the power to fire blasts half the time, infact perhaps thats what Materia does in canon...I mean the final two remnants who shoot cloud have like 5 of those materia in their arms each yet all they do is blast stuff...

BUt he doesnt thats the thing, your getting confused with your own argument, I mocked your argument by basicalyl saying any of these characters including wolverine may have for some reason become universal entites like Galactus by having the same occurance as Galactus, your simply giving powers to anyone you wish, its like me saying "well other spartans may also have Kratos' powers" or "well a lot of the characters in DMC may suddenly have learnt Dantes styles so he cant use htem" yet this is all nonsense youve come out with, the simple fact is, all we see in the games is Kain learning them, thus that makes them unique to kain. Whether they actualyl can learn those spells or not is irrelvent because in the game none of them do...furthermore their not selectable by the player since you only play as Kain as well..

Hes not simply gameplay wtf are you talking about.....explain this? you dont have an idea of wht your saying lmao, Its you who have your own version of Kain it seems, you cant even bring up any relevent points.


Theres no reasoning behind that, the Kain in each game is slightly diffrent and more evolved, he doesnt have to use every spell hes ever had for it to be in the game since its the same storyline and the same Kain. Thing is, an ability is an ability, if its a power that only Kain gains, is mentioned in the manuel and is mentioned in the characters actual script liek ive shown, its canon, just like Kratos' Atlas quake, explain to me how Kratos Atlas quake which people have used the many recent debates is diffrent from Kains powers?

Hes done very little, a lot of failures, including not even fighting to his "overhyped level of his enthiastic fans reach him to" against Cloud in the first place, what does he actually eventualyl succeed at?

Yes well theres the entire circle of nine, many of which have incredible powers such as instantly disintgrating energy from Dejoule to anyone who even stands near..but Kain beats her, Mortainious who created kain and who could take his spirit...etc etc, Kain would technically be unbeatable by almost any power if we assumed like some people in this forum, assumed because Kain fights many beings who have powers, heres the warp of reality:



As iv e bolted, the beings around the tower get warped into twisted forms, its funny how Kain is not even harmed or affected, thus, he is immune to reality warp it seems....

yes its another gameplay debate fail because going on about the "God" title is simply that. Well thats funny, because my Kain is the real one as the debate has shown so far..youve not even brought any points against me, your simply nitpicking atm spells and abilities, using your own gameplay as well as blurred and broken logic.

Hes body is not moving at all Terry lol.....his wait and his lower back are in the same position during all those images, only his arm has moved backwards....the guys legs dont move either when he does it so hes not leaping either. He moves his arms only...

He took an entire second to reach tifa over about 8 meters, if that, Kain took about half a second to reach Raziel over about 5 meters, Kain is therefore faster and not to mention this, but Loz needs that little thing on his arm for speed, it charges, ive watched the fiml and he doesnt speed up at all after its broken.

Show me this, he isnt just moving and he wouldnt be able to do what Kain does anyway, hes only a remnant, hes not got the same ability as kain to move without even moving his legs or body, he just did it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the magic comes FROM nosgoth u bufoon! it is a LIMITED source. also, if he cud DO that, then why wud he not just destroy the cycle of the souls with pure power and kill the elder god and resurrect razial? why did he need razial's soul and the soul reaver to even ENTER the realm of the elder god and harm him?????? why was he still not able to kill the elder god???? why cudnt he just manipulate reality at a whim instead of going through all the troubles he did?!?!?!!?!?!?!

and no, it seems like YOU havent played the game kid. in the end of defiance, the room the elder god is in starts to crumble taking the elder god down with it

"one day your wretched stagnant soul will finally be mine"

kain: "until then, ud best burrow deep".

the elder god is trapped without much of his power underneath a lot of rubble. AND ur an idiot.

wtf you talking about? Kain regulates magic in Nosgoth and your childish insults mean nothing to me lol. Nothing points to magic being anything more than energy which is unlmited, not to mention its a force used constantly and consistently like energy, if there is a lmit to magic, Kain wont find it in something as quck as a VS debate. Second Having unlmited magic only happens at the end of the game, he onoly just gains it, how he defeats the Elder God we know, he uses the reaver, thus only the reaver is known to be effective, not magic we cant run around guessing, or at least thats not a clever tinhg to do and is irrelvent, but you and Terry seem to enjoy it.

No youve not played the game, it doesnt take EG, before the fight EG says hes going to bury Kain under a mountain of rubble, the EG if you had any idea of the LOK series is underground already covering the entire continent of Nosgoth, if youve even watched any of the gameplay vids youd know EG can regenrate limbs instatly anyway.

how old are you? how is that a clever end to a post "AND ur an idiot" its like a 10 year old would say, go and play the game or better yet, watch this ime tired of your foolery when youve not even played the game: At 7.13

ErMXs2puARo



Now unless I picked up on that wrongly....he just claimed HE HIMSELF is apprently trying to bury himself even after saying this to Kain? what rubbish, the fact alone you dont realise EG is in about 100 other locations across the continents of Nosgoth UNDER THE GROUND ANTWAY.

as Kain said, this is not a debate, this is me mercily thrashing you and Terry.

^a kid "mercilessly thrashing" me? LMAO!!!!!!!!!! wow well done fanboy
all ur really mercilessly thrashing, r ur non existing balls. EVERYTHING points towards magic being connected with the land of nosgoth. the land gives life and everything that comes with it. WHY do you think{oh wait, ur not capable of THINKING r u?} the destruction of the pillars was such a big deal and why the land of nosgoth became lifeless afterwards?!?!?! there is NUTHING to suggest that magic is infinite in legacy of kain. its anything BUT.

as for the reaver, the reaver is also a MAGICAL artifact and its power comes from raziel's soul. so again, why is it that INFINITE magic cant defeat the elder god or even undo any of the things that plagued raziel and kain in their quest??? infact what CAN this magic do?! why dont you show me cannon feats of what its DONE!!!! cant find any impressive ones?! lol. your using the approach of asking the genie for more wishes on ur third wish, it doesnt work that way. he cant MAGICALLY make INFINITE magic. thats just absurd.

as for the last part concerning the elder god, those places where he exists are simply MANIFESTATIONS, in the soul realm. however, the place where kain FACES him, is the real deal. and i never said KAIN traps him under rubble, i just said he is trapped under a lot of rubble.

and these two statement are enough to destroy any of your moroninc arguments.

E.G: "one day ur wretched stagnant soul will finally be mine

kain :until then, ud best burrow deep {now WHAT does he mean by that hmmmm????? moron}

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ofc its story, it mentions story characters, what part of that dont you understand? what was your argument even? all youve done is compared it to materia then ive destroyed all of them points sicne Materia has zero of what this spell has going for it, this has actual storyline characters mentioned in a cinematic,
It doesn't mention story characterS, it says worthy of the necromancer, what does theo optional spell have to do with the story <-- read that word. Absolutely nothing, you've destroyed nothing rofl, you've given hilarious failure examples thats all.

Spells and materia are not much difference, and you've done nothing to prove that they arent.


Perhaps materia does what in canon? I told you what materia does, so don't try to argue facts.


No see this is where your examples fail

Galactus is different from a human, a vampire IS a vampire.

If a human went through the same process galactus did to become galactus, then yes he can obtain the power cosmic (you fail again)

If Ares gave the spartan powers of the god of war, then yes he can become similar to Kratos (you fail again)

If a character half demon like Dante, Vergil for example, can learn the styles as well, hes not incapable of learning them (you fail yet again)


Yes he is gameplay because he has no feats outside of gameplay, what has he done outside of gameplay? Cut off peoples heads? No it seems your the only one with a special kain.


So its either
1) Kain for some reason just chooses not to use the power ever
2) the optional spell was never obtained in the canon storyline which explains why its never seen or unheard of again in the next 4 sequals

Was Atlas Quake just an optional spell that could be learned? Or is it part of his character assets? And i've searched this thread, and i don't see it being used.


Again with no answer, i asked you what his "failures" are, and you reply with that kind of answer rofl.

Because if he did fight at 100% then the story would be ruined as the protagonist would be dead.


Show me this disintegrating energy

"DeJoule worked with Bane and Anarcrothe at Dark Eden. All three were tainted by Nupraptor's insanity. Approaching the area, Kain saw that their combined magic was twisting the land around Dark Eden's tower, causing mutations of plants, humans and beasts. Eventually, all of Nosgoth would have been engulfed by their growing dome of sorcery, spewing from the tower's apex"

Doesn't sound impressive nor does is it even a battle feat.


HAHA Or its not even a reality warp.. Reality warping is WARPING REALITY, if you are part of reality then you will get warped, nothing states its reality warping, mutating plants and animals around a tower isn't much of reality warping, its just sorcery as its stated in the quote.


I didn't give anyone a god title i said your special version of kain is a god-killer, meaning it kills everything, its funny how its only you and maybe one other person on the planet who see's this "real version" of kain.


Seriously you must be blind or in denial if you think his body isn't moving, pictures don't lie, and he doesn't really have to move his legs much, its about shifting weights putting your weight on your back leg, and launching forward, you don't hold out your arm like that if your simply just jabbing.


It didn't take an entire second wtf are you talking about? The time Tifa hit the bench he was still in the same spot, as the picture showed it was quite clear, he got there before she could even blink or change expressions. Over about 5 meters? It was like 3 meters.. And no stop lying you don't see Loz move at that speed after his Dual Hound is broken is well because hes not in the film after his dual hound was broken he was hit with a TNT and didn't show up again until he shot Cloud, duh.

Even the UOG says Loz' speed doesn't suggest anything to do with his Dual Hound.


5:58, even in the air hes able to boost his speed whenever he wants
iTA1ixvTxZU

Kain DOES have to move his body back then propel forward to move at that speed genius, then why don't you show me him moving at that speed normally then? Oh it must be because "kain just chooses not to".

Kain has to launch himself like this, to move a couple meters fast, its different from Loz' movement speed

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

Originally posted by Terryc250
It doesn't mention story characterS, it says worthy of the necromancer, what does theo optional spell have to do with the story <-- read that word. Absolutely nothing, you've destroyed nothing rofl, you've given hilarious failure examples thats all.

Spells and materia are not much difference, and you've done nothing to prove that they arent.


Perhaps materia does what in canon? I told you what materia does, so don't try to argue facts.


No see this is where your examples fail

Galactus is different from a human, a vampire IS a vampire.

If a human went through the same process galactus did to become galactus, then yes he can obtain the power cosmic (you fail again)

If Ares gave the spartan powers of the god of war, then yes he can become similar to Kratos (you fail again)

If a character half demon like Dante, Vergil for example, can learn the styles as well, hes not incapable of learning them (you fail yet again)


Yes he is gameplay because he has no feats outside of gameplay, what has he done outside of gameplay? Cut off peoples heads? No it seems your the only one with a special kain.


So its either
1) Kain for some reason just chooses not to use the power ever
2) the optional spell was never obtained in the canon storyline which explains why its never seen or unheard of again in the next 4 sequals

Was Atlas Quake just an optional spell that could be learned? Or is it part of his character assets? And i've searched this thread, and i don't see it being used.


Again with no answer, i asked you what his "failures" are, and you reply with that kind of answer rofl.

Because if he did fight at 100% then the story would be ruined as the protagonist would be dead.


Show me this disintegrating energy

"DeJoule worked with Bane and Anarcrothe at Dark Eden. All three were tainted by Nupraptor's insanity. Approaching the area, Kain saw that their combined magic was twisting the land around Dark Eden's tower, causing mutations of plants, humans and beasts. Eventually, all of Nosgoth would have been engulfed by their growing dome of sorcery, spewing from the tower's apex"

Doesn't sound impressive nor does is it even a battle feat.


HAHA Or its not even a reality warp.. Reality warping is WARPING REALITY, if you are part of reality then you will get warped, nothing states its reality warping, mutating plants and animals around a tower isn't much of reality warping, its just sorcery as its stated in the quote.


I didn't give anyone a god title i said your special version of kain is a god-killer, meaning it kills everything, its funny how its only you and maybe one other person on the planet who see's this "real version" of kain.


Seriously you must be blind or in denial if you think his body isn't moving, pictures don't lie, and he doesn't really have to move his legs much, its about shifting weights putting your weight on your back leg, and launching forward, you don't hold out your arm like that if your simply just jabbing.


It didn't take an entire second wtf are you talking about? The time Tifa hit the bench he was still in the same spot, as the picture showed it was quite clear, he got there before she could even blink or change expressions. Over about 5 meters? It was like 3 meters.. And no stop lying you don't see Loz move at that speed after his Dual Hound is broken is well because hes not in the film after his dual hound was broken he was hit with a TNT and didn't show up again until he shot Cloud, duh.

Even the UOG says Loz' speed doesn't suggest anything to do with his Dual Hound.


5:58, even in the air hes able to boost his speed whenever he wants
iTA1ixvTxZU

Kain DOES have to move his body back then propel forward to move at that speed genius, then why don't you show me him moving at that speed normally then? Oh it must be because "kain just chooses not to".

Because its mentioned in storyline tone thats why.

Diffrences:

1. Materia can be selected by the player in-game to be used by almost any character
2. Materia are simply mentioned in gameplay terms, no canon story terms.

1*. Kains spells are his only, only Kain gains them throughout the game
2*. Kains spells not only have storyline script for every one he gains just like almost other power that is canon unlike uncaonon materia.

These are undebatable facts.

No perhaps Materia just creates blast in canon, thats shown in the AC, all we see is Remnants using many diffrent materia, and all they do is create blasts or amplify abilities, they dont seem to do anything else.

oh okie lets have another mockery of your lacking debating technique

Kain has all the powers Demitri and Jedah have in DS....they are vampires.

So w8 a min, your creating some half @ssed theory based around the same beings spieces having the same pwoers? what a load of BS....

SO your saying we cannot use the power cosmic because many beings can gain it? your saying we cannot use any of the powers Kratos gains because apprently anyone can gain them? we cannot use any of Sephiroth/FF powers because anyone can gain them? and finally we cannot use Dantes styles because anyone half demon could? that was the basis of your argument, you claimed Kains spells are not unique to him and therefore we cannot use them......

youve destroyed your own argument and shown your foolery.

what are you talking about? outside of gameplay? heres a few I can remember off the top of my head:

Kains outside of gameplay feats

Defeating the circle of nine who wield powers of varying elements BO
defeating Hylden Lord possesion BO
Defeating Hylden race BO 2
Destroying Hylden Lord BO 2

Defeating Raziel in the first battle in Defiance nad tooling him throughout the series most games
Defeated a multidimentional godlike entity Defiance

Ofc actual feats are just as good as capabiltiies he has not used in large events.

1) thats the correct one, although more likely its not Kain who chooses, tis the developers of the game

2) no because thats the thing, its in the canon story as soon as Kain gives a storyline speech on it, just like any other canon power in gaming.

Atlas quake along with all the powers are gained the same way Kain gains his spells, their placed in the players path so that you cant get around them but technicaly, the player "chooses the option" to pass through otherwise you cannot contue, just like DMC powers, only DMC powers are also bought.

All his plans are failures overall, he plans to gain all the power of the Shinra thing but he is foiled, he plans to use the planet as a ship but is foiled, all his plans seem to fail and their only a couple, ive not seen every moment of the FF games so I wouldnt know every failure, but he fails overall in his schemes since obviously...he is not ruler of the world.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/dejoule.php?sec=1&type=1




Whatever it sounds like to you, it happens, and yes it is warping reality, their warping trees and objects and beings into diffrent forms, the fact their using magic and sorcery to cause the warp in reality is neither here nor there.

But Gods are not everything, God is a title, you should state what you mean next time, but as I said, my version of kain is the only version of kain. What do you mean "only", what the hell are you talking about? theres perhaps a handfull of people in this forum, so who are you basing "the rest of the world" on? espcially since 80% of the people in the forum have never played a LOk game it seems and those who claim to (leon for example) get swatted in their knowledge lack.

Ill simply say your blind or in denial, the guy simply doesnt move his body back, just him arm.

Whats the UOG, whatever it is,that thing (duel hound or w/e) charges/glows when he moves fast, thus it seems to be the source of his speed, he is slow early on when hes not using it, when Tifa is fighting him normally.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Kain has to launch himself like this, to move a couple meters fast, its different from Loz' movement speed

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif


its far more than a couple, its about 4/5 meters, about 3 meters less than Loz distance and much faster, also thats not launching, his moving his arm back ffs, his body itself is not even moving neither are his legs. You cant launch yourself without your legs normally, but Kain can.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^a kid "mercilessly thrashing" me? LMAO!!!!!!!!!! wow well done fanboy
all ur really mercilessly thrashing, r ur non existing balls. EVERYTHING points towards magic being connected with the land of nosgoth. the land gives life and everything that comes with it. WHY do you think{oh wait, ur not capable of THINKING r u?} the destruction of the pillars was such a big deal and why the land of nosgoth became lifeless afterwards?!?!?! there is NUTHING to suggest that magic is infinite in legacy of kain. its anything BUT.

as for the reaver, the reaver is also a MAGICAL artifact and its power comes from raziel's soul. so again, why is it that INFINITE magic cant defeat the elder god or even undo any of the things that plagued raziel and kain in their quest??? infact what CAN this magic do?! why dont you show me cannon feats of what its DONE!!!! cant find any impressive ones?! lol. your using the approach of asking the genie for more wishes on ur third wish, it doesnt work that way. he cant MAGICALLY make INFINITE magic. thats just absurd.

as for the last part concerning the elder god, those places where he exists are simply MANIFESTATIONS, in the soul realm. however, the place where kain FACES him, is the real deal. and i never said KAIN traps him under rubble, i just said he is trapped under a lot of rubble.

and these two statement are enough to destroy any of your moroninc arguments.

E.G: "one day ur wretched stagnant soul will finally be mine

kain :until then, ud best burrow deep {now WHAT does he mean by that hmmmm????? moron}

Now your having a tantrum by using what ive already called you against me in some attempt to attack? lol.....

The pillars give life to Nosgoth through a connection to its guardians, mainly the balance guardian, without the pillars connection the land dies, its nothing to do with the world losing all its magic since Kain uses magic long after and during the pillars destruction.

It does defeat the Elder God.....and the Soul reaver is not just magical, infact its mostly a soul blade, although it "enchanted" with magic.

Ive already shown you what the balance power can do, it regulates magic, do you understand what that means? it means he is the one who draws the line for its power, if he wants it infnite, then he is the regulator, nobody can say otherwise.

Those are all the Elder God across the entire continent, the place where Kain faces him are no diffrent, where are you getting this nonsense? see if anyone who has actually played LOK through could see this they would choke with laughter, me? ime simply sighing with pity that you dont have any idea.

They dont destroy anything, the Elder God livesu under the ground through the dimensional pathways, he "does" burrow....theres notihng there about him being buried, the guy says so himself he is trying to bury kain so stop talking nonsense.

in AC materia was used to summon bahamut, in ff-7 materia was used to summon the meteor, in dirge of cerberus materia was used to unlock omega and bring it to life as well as chaos. so no, ur wrong

by multidimensional god, so you mean a patheic octopus who cudnt even dig his way out of rubble in time?

oh and in blood omen two, every SPELL kain gains is due to beating an adversary and taking THEIR power.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
in AC materia was used to summon bahamut, in ff-7 materia was used to summon the meteor, in dirge of cerberus materia was used to unlock omega and bring it to life as well as chaos. so no, ur wrong

by multidimensional god, so you mean a patheic octopus who cudnt even dig his way out of rubble in time?

oh and in blood omen two, every SPELL kain gains is due to beating an adversary and taking THEIR power.


In AC many materia shared out amongst two guys did a total of one explosion....

I mean a multimdensional God that could defeat GOW or FF unvierses with ease due them not being able to either see or tocuh his instantly regerative tentacles and vast bulk covering continents....

so? ......

Originally posted by Burning thought
Now your having a tantrum by using what ive already called you against me in some attempt to attack? lol.....

The pillars give life to Nosgoth through a connection to its guardians, mainly the balance guardian, without the pillars connection the land dies, its nothing to do with the world losing all its magic since Kain uses magic long after and during the pillars destruction.

It does defeat the Elder God.....and the Soul reaver is not just magical, infact its mostly a soul blade, although it "enchanted" with magic.

Ive already shown you what the balance power can do, it regulates magic, do you understand what that means? it means he is the one who draws the line for its power, if he wants it infnite, then he is the regulator, nobody can say otherwise.

Those are all the Elder God across the entire continent, the place where Kain faces him are no diffrent, where are you getting this nonsense? see if anyone who has actually played LOK through could see this they would choke with laughter, me? ime simply sighing with pity that you dont have any idea.

They dont destroy anything, the Elder God livesu under the ground through the dimensional pathways, he "does" burrow....theres notihng there about him being buried, the guy says so himself he is trying to bury kain so stop talking nonsense.

the destruction of the pillars brings about the PROCESS which is ending all life. it hasnt completed, hence, there being life on nosgoth AND magic. if it was completed, nuthign wud remain on nosgoth.

again, power of the soul=magic. and u didnt answer my question, why cudnt kain beat the elder god with his IFINITE power???

you havent shown me SQUAT! no feats, no videos, not even mention of events. kain is the balance guardian, his role is to BALANCE the aspects of all other pillars. and its YOU who have the meaning of REGULATER wrong. REGULATER doesnt CREATE power, it CONTROLS power. kain cud, pehraps forcibly tilt the magical power of one aspect over another, but those aspects of the other pillars arent HIS to control, only to DISTRIBUTE and balance. even IF the regulater was the controller, the REGULATER's power wud depend on the power SUPPLY, he or she can not have more power than the power SUPPY, and the power supply is nosgoth{and again, kain doesnt posess all the magical power of nosgoth, as other beings also have power, mobius and the elder god for one}. and most importantly, he has no feats, no mention of this INFINITE power in game, heck he cud do a million usedful things with such power, is he stupid that he doesnt use it?

people here HAVE played legacy of kain and it seems, they all disagree and laugh at YOU without fail. so that tells me sumthing. what kain battled was the TRUE version of the elder god. he exists in many places, but hes never engaged any1 at those places has he. you are implying that kain only beat the elder god present at ONE place while all the others remain unharmed and powerful.

the last cutscene of the game is evidence enough, he mentions to raziel/kain that HIS patience was eternal but that they wud spend eternity buried forever with him and wudnt be able to bear it. so confirming, that he was infact burried.

Originally posted by Burning thought
In AC many materia shared out amongst two guys did a total of one explosion....

I mean a multimdensional God that could defeat GOW or FF unvierses with ease due them not being able to either see or tocuh his instantly regerative tentacles and vast bulk covering continents....

so? ......

there are both weak and strong materia. youd know that if you knew anything other than your flawed ideals of legacy of kain. a single materia brough in bahamut who cud have easily levelled a city. yet another summoned meteor which cud have destroyed the surface of most of the planet. that is CANNON.

no, you mean a god who dwells in the soul REALM of a single half barren planet called nosgoth which cud easily be reached by any1 with dimensional/soul powers/perception who was beaten by the soul of a SINGLE creature and defeated by being BURRIED under rubble{fact}. yea

so? so it means those SPELLS werent HIS supposed infinite magical power as ur flawed version of the balance guardian but the powers of other vampire and hildens.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the destruction of the pillars brings about the PROCESS which is ending all life. it hasnt completed, hence, there being life on nosgoth AND magic. if it was completed, nuthign wud remain on nosgoth.

again, power of the soul=magic. and u didnt answer my question, why cudnt kain beat the elder god with his IFINITE power???

you havent shown me SQUAT! no feats, no videos, not even mention of events. kain is the balance guardian, his role is to BALANCE the aspects of all other pillars. and its YOU who have the meaning of REGULATER wrong. REGULATER doesnt CREATE power, it CONTROLS power. kain cud, pehraps forcibly tilt the magical power of one aspect over another, but those aspects of the other pillars arent HIS to control, only to DISTRIBUTE and balance. even IF the regulater was the controller, the REGULATER's power wud depend on the power SUPPLY, he or she can not have more power than the power SUPPY, and the power supply is nosgoth{and again, kain doesnt posess all the magical power of nosgoth, as other beings also have power, mobius and the elder god for one}. and most importantly, he has no feats, no mention of this INFINITE power in game, heck he cud do a million usedful things with such power, is he stupid that he doesnt use it?

people here HAVE played legacy of kain and it seems, they all disagree and laugh at YOU without fail. so that tells me sumthing. what kain battled was the TRUE version of the elder god. he exists in many places, but hes never engaged any1 at those places has he. you are implying that kain only beat the elder god present at ONE place while all the others remain unharmed and powerful.

the last cutscene of the game is evidence enough, he mentions to raziel/kain that HIS patience was eternal but that they wud spend eternity buried forever with him and wudnt be able to bear it. so confirming, that he was infact burried.

Thats not true since Vampires dont need life, they are already dead, the process is simply losing Nosgoth its balane and so the land is dieing, the magic has always been there, Kain has his full power at the end of defiance where the pillars are destroyed.

No its not, its simply power of the soul. He did beat the EG.

ive shown you Kain being the Balance regulator, the regulator of magic in Nosgoth, if he regulates it, he controls it, thus he could make his magic potential infnite, Nosgoth does not lose magic show me where it says this?, also:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php

As it says the balance guardian regulates other magic, controls it, if you regulate magic you control what it is, its overall amount is never said to be any less than infnite since its just like energy, infact it is energy and like energy when you use it, it just changes form but you cant lose or destroy energy. He can control all attributes of the pillars since he has the reaver emblemed.

He doesnt use it because A: unbalanced, it would be as Terry said earlier like Sephiroth killing Cloud at the end, plot devices and B: he only gets it at the end after fullfilling his destiny as Balance guardian.

Whos all? show me All? youve claimed to play it yet you seem to for some reason belive the EG has clones of himself across Nosgoth, that he wasnt trying to bury Kain, he was actually trying to bury himself despite the dialogue.....you know nothing of the game.

Their all the true EG, theres only ONE EG ffs, what are you talking about? the thing is a continent sized being of multi dimensions, the only reason Kain could both see and hit the thing now is that hes purfied so you dont know what your talking about. ANd yes he attacked Raziel when he was coming out of the Underworld, he smashed at him with his tentacles.

Calling the EG buried would be like calling foxes living in a fox hole buried.....

Originally posted by leonheartmm
there are both weak and strong materia. youd know that if you knew anything other than your flawed ideals of legacy of kain. a single materia brough in bahamut who cud have easily levelled a city. yet another summoned meteor which cud have destroyed the surface of most of the planet. that is CANNON.

no, you mean a god who dwells in the soul REALM of a single half barren planet called nosgoth which cud easily be reached by any1 with dimensional/soul powers/perception who was beaten by the soul of a SINGLE creature and defeated by being BURRIED under rubble{fact}. yea

so? so it means those SPELLS werent HIS supposed infinite magical power as ur flawed version of the balance guardian but the powers of other vampire and hildens.

says the guy who thinks EG who lives underground is buried by the falling rubble lmao...yeh it summoned that thing which was also weak in the end and stopped, even a red dog can harm it, either way, these materia have either been retconned in AC or they are simply moslty weak, just not all.

exactley what I said he was, a multidmensional being the size of a continent, and no, multi dimensional, he can be in the physical world and smash physical objects AND the soul world, i.e he is not harmable by anything in FF or GOW, since he requires a plot device to be defeated.

Your talking about BO 2 Kain, he gains those powers off those beings, their not infnite in power yet, he is only infnite when he is purified at the end of Defiance.

land and PEOPLE. as well as trees etc. nosgoth was a lucious land before the guardians fought and killed. you are intentionally understimating the roles of the pillars in all the LIFE on nosgoth

power of the soul in legacy of kain=magic. it isnt scientific and it isnt neo mystical, hence makign it magic, it doesnt have to be a SPELL.

you have SAID that he is the balance guardian, every1 knows that, as every1 knows that his role is to BALANCE the aspects of all the other pillars. nowhere in game or in any EVIDENCE, youve posted does it say that kain posesses all the power of the other aspects he BALANCES or says that the collective power of the pillars is INFINITE. that is just unfounded nonsense you have invented to hype kain. and please do not use scientific reference concerning PHYSICAL energy to justify your stupid stance on MAGIC.

so you mean to say that even though you reasoning has never been described or hinted at in the game, its still shud be BELEIVED?! lol. it makes zero sense, if he has that power, he shud bring back all the pillars, bring back all the dead, make himself supreme ruler and release raziel from the prison of the reaver and PERMANENTLY kill the elder god. oh wait, WHY didnt he do any of those things?!

"i" do not beleive that E.G has clones, YOU do, since you say that they are ALL elder god. he was trying to bury himself AND raziel/kain. however, kain with raziel's help beat him and only HE got burried. the flailing tentacles as he is being buried are testament to that.

it is a being of only ONE dimension, te soul dimension, he doesnt even exist in the physical dimension. the wrest is you blabbering about things i didnt even touch. insecure much?

no callin the EG burried woul be like calling foxes burried under the collapse of their own foxholes, unable to get out, buried.

Originally posted by Burning thought
says the guy who thinks EG who lives underground is buried by the falling rubble lmao...yeh it summoned that thing which was also weak in the end and stopped, even a red dog can harm it, either way, these materia have either been retconned in AC or they are simply moslty weak, just not all.

exactley what I said he was, a multidmensional being the size of a continent, and no, multi dimensional, he can be in the physical world and smash physical objects AND the soul world, i.e he is not harmable by anything in FF or GOW, since he requires a plot device to be defeated.

Your talking about BO 2 Kain, he gains those powers off those beings, their not infnite in power yet, he is only infnite when he is purified at the end of Defiance.

who can give you video of him beig burried if you have brain enough to comprehend it. it wasnt weak, it was going to destroy a city, unless u call that weak. and it isnt a RED DOG, u moron, its the strongest spell caster in the cloud's team who fought against sephiroth called red13. dont you know ANYTHING?!??! heck, that guy controls his own personal army among many othert things. and it isnt just the dog, you seem to have missed the thing sitting on top of it. so WHY are u commenting when u havent even played thegames again?

those materia have NOT been retconned at all dumass, even AC had a cisual of the past where meteor was being summoned and holy was trying to stop it, so HOW has it been retconned again??? and dirge of cerberus happened AFTER advent children so chaos's materia cant be retconned. jeez ur silly

he is a single dimensional being who had to have RAZIEL and kain and mobius among other servant DO his biding in the real world. he only appears to RAZIEL when he enters the spectral realm. kain can roam freely in the same space without there being anything. and ofcourse he is! . any being with dimensional powers.soul powers can see him/reach him and harm him. its simply a measure of POWER, and since uve been beaten badly at your ignorant claims that no1 in dmc or ff cud do those pathetic hyped feats u mentioned, it seems that elder god will simply be overpowered and killed. it isnt a plot device. its just a measure of power.

where he has shown no spells, never claimed to be infinite, or undone anything that needed it. NICE ONE!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
land and PEOPLE. as well as trees etc. nosgoth was a lucious land before the guardians fought and killed. you are intentionally understimating the roles of the pillars in all the LIFE on nosgoth

power of the soul in legacy of kain=magic. it isnt scientific and it isnt neo mystical, hence makign it magic, it doesnt have to be a SPELL.

you have SAID that he is the balance guardian, every1 knows that, as every1 knows that his role is to BALANCE the aspects of all the other pillars. nowhere in game or in any EVIDENCE, youve posted does it say that kain posesses all the power of the other aspects he BALANCES or says that the collective power of the pillars is INFINITE. that is just unfounded nonsense you have invented to hype kain. and please do not use scientific reference concerning PHYSICAL energy to justify your stupid stance on MAGIC.

so you mean to say that even though you reasoning has never been described or hinted at in the game, its still shud be BELEIVED?! lol. it makes zero sense, if he has that power, he shud bring back all the pillars, bring back all the dead, make himself supreme ruler and release raziel from the prison of the reaver and PERMANENTLY kill the elder god. oh wait, WHY didnt he do any of those things?!

"i" do not beleive that E.G has clones, YOU do, since you say that they are ALL elder god. he was trying to bury himself AND raziel/kain. however, kain with raziel's help beat him and only HE got burried. the flailing tentacles as he is being buried are testament to that.

it is a being of only ONE dimension, te soul dimension, he doesnt even exist in the physical dimension. the wrest is you blabbering about things i didnt even touch. insecure much?

no callin the EG burried woul be like calling foxes burried under the collapse of their own foxholes, unable to get out, buried.

People are not harmed by the land dieing, the land itself is, humans still live and propsour, hell they have guns and flamethrowers in Soul reaver, the pillars are integral for Nosgoth to live, but this is irrelvent to maigc....

Its not magic, the power of the soul can be manipulated by magic its true in Nosgoth but the actual soul reaver itself is simply empowered by Raziel who eats souls....

Magic is energy, simple as, the fact science says so destroys your argument because energy is indeed infnite, there is no end to maigc because it simply is reformed into diffrent forms, not lost or destroyed so your talking nonsense and no, alone he cannot use all other powers, but with the Reaver emblems (he has the pillars emblems on the reaver if you bothered to play the game...) they give him the power over the other pillars.

because your talking about things that would happen after the game ends and second, perhaps time does not decree it? time is immutable remember, your simply guessing again, Kain simply has infnite energy that HE regulates the power of at his disposal, thus in the long run he has infnite energy because of hius regulation, he couldnt regulate if he didnt have energy to regulate with...which he does..thus creating his infnite energy cycle.

LOL! the guy LIVES underground, how difficult is that to understand? he chooses to be underground ,hes not buried at all, EG even as ive shown you claims that he wants to bury kain, nothing to do with buring them with him since he excists throughout all of Nosgot,h they are not EG clones, tehy are all part of the vast being that IS the EG....

yes he does, wtf are you talking about, how the hell could he smash physical objects in the real dimension like the citadel that he is apprently burying himself with lmao when its physical dimension, your talking about stuff you dont understand again.

Ill ignore all mentions of the EG being buried until you get some evidence up there, the thing lives underground, says itself is trying to bury Kain, and overal excists across teh whole of Nosgoth, it cannot be buried and where you really fall flat on your face is apprently it can be buried by physical rocks even when the thing itself is according to you ONLY in the soul dimension, you fail on so many levels as a debator.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
who can give you video of him beig burried if you have brain enough to comprehend it. it wasnt weak, it was going to destroy a city, unless u call that weak. and it isnt a RED DOG, u moron, its the strongest spell caster in the cloud's team who fought against sephiroth called red13. dont you know ANYTHING?!??! heck, that guy controls his own personal army among many othert things. and it isnt just the dog, you seem to have missed the thing sitting on top of it. so WHY are u commenting when u havent even played thegames again?

those materia have NOT been retconned at all dumass, even AC had a cisual of the past where meteor was being summoned and holy was trying to stop it, so HOW has it been retconned again??? and dirge of cerberus happened AFTER advent children so chaos's materia cant be retconned. jeez ur silly

he is a single dimensional being who had to have RAZIEL and kain and mobius among other servant DO his biding in the real world. he only appears to RAZIEL when he enters the spectral realm. kain can roam freely in the same space without there being anything. and ofcourse he is! . any being with dimensional powers.soul powers can see him/reach him and harm him. its simply a measure of POWER, and since uve been beaten badly at your ignorant claims that no1 in dmc or ff cud do those pathetic hyped feats u mentioned, it seems that elder god will simply be overpowered and killed. it isnt a plot device. its just a measure of power.

where he has shown no spells, never claimed to be infinite, or undone anything that needed it. NICE ONE!

No it wasnt, it was going to blow up a couple of buildings if that with its energy blasts, it blew up a total of one momnument and a bit of scaffholding.

Well the strongest seems so damn weak but that makes sense in FF, the things a Red Dog anyway...and it BIT, BIT! the Dragon on the face and the dragon flew backwards, it was damaged by a dog bite.

Then Chaos' materia must be hte only strong ones, since the rest have been retconned, if not a lot of the materia into small blasters.

woah woah woah, stop right there, who says he had to have them? he chose to create them and gather their aid, he didnt "have to" do anything....
also you think Kain is a servent of the EG? okie dokie.....

yes thats why, Kain can indeed roam in the same place ,thats why the EG is a peculier mutli dimenstional being, because he can excist at the same time as not excisting in several dimensions, he can both smash physcial things as shown several times AND be untouchable.

you mean the EG can indeed wipe out the FF unvierse with ease? sure he can, hes big enough to smash the planet while the fools wont know whats going on. Its a plot device, a powerful enchanted blade, the only weapon that can damage EG.


No you mean where it is claimed Balance guardians regulate the magic power....thats the one...regulate it into being an infnite cycle..simple

1. thats where ur wrong, the aspects affect people as much as the land

2. hence, thas ur windeabout way of saying it IS magic, got it

3. son, you SERIOUSLY wanna challenge me on physics? fine then, little idiot, i shall enlighten your ignorant ass. in physics, energy is simply, the ability to do work, that is, the product of force and the distance across which it acts which is also interpreted as 1/2mv sqared,. that is ALL it is dumass. it doesnt apply to MAGIC, all it applies to is creating and destroying PHYSICAL bonds in matter or giving a velocity to a PHYSICAL object. and it has no biases based on consequence dependant on the WHIMS of personal emotions. magic is in NO way applicable to the rule that energy can neither be created nor be destroyed,{it isnt INFINITE DUMASS} it only changes forms. and again, no cannon instance of him SAYING its infinite or even saying that he has power over all that the PILLARS have as balance guardian.

YOUR guessing the answer which has never even been hinted at. im not guessing anything, im merely saying that your guess is UTTERLY baseless. nosgoth and the pillars have a FINITE amoung of magic, and kain is its BALANCER not its MASTER.

did you NOT get my foxhole collapsing analogy or r u just retarted.{nod if it is both}

why does he have to rely on pawns to do his dirty work then?

it is not only buried in physical rocks byt the GROUND on which it rests is collapsing into a pit, spectral or physical, beings can not stand on NUTHING. this is proven by the geography odf the spectral realm when raziel navigates it.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. thats where ur wrong, the aspects affect people as much as the land

2. hence, thas ur windeabout way of saying it IS magic, got it

3. son, you SERIOUSLY wanna challenge me on physics? fine then, little idiot, i shall enlighten your ignorant ass. in physics, energy is simply, the ability to do work, that is, the product of force and the distance across which it acts which is also interpreted as 1/2mv sqared,. that is ALL it is dumass. it doesnt apply to MAGIC, all it applies to is creating and destroying PHYSICAL bonds in matter or giving a velocity to a PHYSICAL object. and it has no biases based on consequence dependant on the WHIMS of personal emotions. magic is in NO way applicable to the rule that energy can neither be created nor be destroyed,{it isnt INFINITE DUMASS} it only changes forms. and again, no cannon instance of him SAYING its infinite or even saying that he has power over all that the PILLARS have as balance guardian.

YOUR guessing the answer which has never even been hinted at. im not guessing anything, im merely saying that your guess is UTTERLY baseless. nosgoth and the pillars have a FINITE amoung of magic, and kain is its BALANCER not its MASTER.

did you NOT get my foxhole collapsing analogy or r u just retarted.{nod if it is both}

why does he have to rely on pawns to do his dirty work then?

it is not only buried in physical rocks byt the GROUND on which it rests is collapsing into a pit, spectral or physical, beings can not stand on NUTHING. this is proven by the geography odf the spectral realm when raziel navigates it.

1. Proof for this claim that people are dieing because of the pillars?


2. Soul devouring enttiy..not magic

3. Your calling it finite, thats a claim...only the ability to use magic is finite and the ability to channel it, otherwise its just energy..

4. Kain is its regulator AND balancor, thus he can regulate what it does, its a form of government and control, magic is his toy basically.

you obviously didnt understand my words, I dont speak other languages so sry...

he doesnt have to rely on anyone, he chooses to use RAZIEL because he himself cannot suck vampire souls to spin them in the will which is why their almost undefeatable in general however he doesnt need to suck vampire souls, he is merely a parasite.

Once again, you failed completly after saying physical when you claim yourself that apprently he is only in the soul dimesion, which is a diffent dimension to the physical, youve gotten confused, dont understand the EG, and have no idea of the LOK series, simple.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No it wasnt, it was going to blow up a couple of buildings if that with its energy blasts, it blew up a total of one momnument and a bit of scaffholding.

Well the strongest seems so damn weak but that makes sense in FF, the things a Red Dog anyway...and it BIT, BIT! the Dragon on the face and the dragon flew backwards, it was damaged by a dog bite.

Then Chaos' materia must be hte only strong ones, since the rest have been retconned, if not a lot of the materia into small blasters.

woah woah woah, stop right there, who says he had to have them? he chose to create them and gather their aid, he didnt "have to" do anything....
also you think Kain is a servent of the EG? okie dokie.....

yes thats why, Kain can indeed roam in the same place ,thats why the EG is a peculier mutli dimenstional being, because he can excist at the same time as not excisting in several dimensions, he can both smash physcial things as shown several times AND be untouchable.

you mean the EG can indeed wipe out the FF unvierse with ease? sure he can, hes big enough to smash the planet while the fools wont know whats going on. Its a plot device, a powerful enchanted blade, the only weapon that can damage EG.


No you mean where it is claimed Balance guardians regulate the magic power....thats the one...regulate it into being an infnite cycle..simple

its called mega flare and it was going to destroy the city, the size of the blast itself was larger than a FEW buildings, and it EXPLODES. ignorant one.

it isnt a red DOG u numbskull, u just dont have the brains to see what is sitting on TOP of the red dog. and again it is the strongest spell caster in the group. the dragon flew back from an ENERGY blast by the character not a BITE.

your an idiot, give me a REASON why the rest have been retconned, {which is odd since you know NUTHING about the game} there are weak materia like first level spells, then there are strong materia with thiird level spells, then there are high level summon materia like bahamut and knights of the round table and then super power special materia as chaos's materia and dark materia{both of which are completeley cannon as seen in ac and DOC as well as bahamut}. you are making yourself look like a complete fool, HOW are the materias retconned? give me a reason.

kain is an UNWILLING servant of elder god, and he had all those servant because he NEEDED them. why else?

he exists in one dimension, the GROUND and large structures exist in BOTH dimensions, and canbe affected by such{evidences byt the fact that spectral raziel walks on GROUND in the spectral realm} .

no i mean your an idiot who doesnt even realise that EACH final fantasy happens in its own universe different from the other and most happen at the level of the entire universe as opposed to a pesky planet. the elder god is a littlw wuss who was defeated by getting tentacles and eyes cut in ONE room{irrespective of how they wer cut} he will be raped and murdered by most of the strong characters in any final fantasy.

never said, never happened. the balance guardian BALANCES all other aspect. and eve REGULATERS arent the same as GENERATERS. understand the language .

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its called mega flare and it was going to destroy the city, the size of the blast itself was larger than a FEW buildings, and it EXPLODES. ignorant one.

it isnt a red DOG u numbskull, u just dont have the brains to see what is sitting on TOP of the red dog. and again it is the strongest spell caster in the group. the dragon flew back from an ENERGY blast by the character not a BITE.

your an idiot, give me a REASON why the rest have been retconned, {which is odd since you know NUTHING about the game} there are weak materia like first level spells, then there are strong materia with thiird level spells, then there are high level summon materia like bahamut and knights of the round table and then super power special materia as chaos's materia and dark materia{both of which are completeley cannon as seen in ac and DOC as well as bahamut}. you are making yourself look like a complete fool, HOW are the materias retconned? give me a reason.

kain is an UNWILLING servant of elder god, and he had all those servant because he NEEDED them. why else?

he exists in one dimension, the GROUND and large structures exist in BOTH dimensions, and canbe affected by such{evidences byt the fact that spectral raziel walks on GROUND in the spectral realm} .

no i mean your an idiot who doesnt even realise that EACH final fantasy happens in its own universe different from the other and most happen at the level of the entire universe as opposed to a pesky planet. the elder god is a littlw wuss who was defeated by getting tentacles and eyes cut in ONE room{irrespective of how they wer cut} he will be raped and murdered by most of the strong characters in any final fantasy.

never said, never happened. the balance guardian BALANCES all other aspect. and eve REGULATERS arent the same as GENERATERS. understand the language .

The massive one didnt actually hit anything, it lost its energy halfway through before it even hit the ground.

Its a Red Dog with a bear on its back...great....

false, the dragon was indeed bitten several times

Their retconned because out of all those materias, perhaps about 10 between them, the two remnants created a fairly medicore explosion, no fire spells, nothing, same iwith Kadaj materia in his arm, blasts is all he fired half the time, pathetic, do we see all the other materia later in the film? no...all we see out of large combinations of materia on the remnants is blasts of energy, thus...retcon.

As i said in the other thread and Kain is not a servant at all, explain?

its one split dimension creating two realities, the being EG is in both that we know of, thus he is multi, as I said, he can manipulate both dimensions, hes not only in one lol

lamo, they wouldnt even see the thing as it rips them apart, not to mention he regerates instantly with more and more tentacles, they have no way of defeating the full Elder Gods form thats for sure...

Regulators are when the magic you regulate is infnite, regulation is like being governed, if you govern magic itself you rule it, thus it can be infnite if Kain wills it, simple logic.

1. it didnt hit because cloud killed bahamut before it hit

2. do you have EYES?! its a CAT!!!!!!

3. strawman. it was only PUSHED back by the energy blast not the bite

4. your indeed foolish, that line of thinking is flawed because those materia can just be attributed to the many many WEAKER materias in the game like fire/ice/water/thunder. it doesnt RETCON any of the stronger ones as they can be explained away by being the weaker ones.

5. he is a pawn

6. large structures are present to interact with in both dimensions. that is how he affected the real world. he wasnt simultaneously present in it

7. he doesnt have the power to scratch them

8. wrong on three accounts in the same sentence, wow. regulaters are present to REGULATE{i.e. channel } the ALREADY PRESENT resource. nuthing in feats or claims in game even hints towards the RESOURCE beinfg infinite. the tap can only give out as much water as is present in the tank, even if left fully open. it cant CREATE more water. similarly even if kain DID "control" all magic, he cudnt create MORE magic than was in his control. and he doesnt control it all to begin with. your not strong on logic.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
1. it didnt hit because cloud killed bahamut before it hit

2. do you have EYES?! its a CAT!!!!!!

3. strawman. it was only PUSHED back by the energy blast not the bite

4. your indeed foolish, that line of thinking is flawed because those materia can just be attributed to the many many WEAKER materias in the game like fire/ice/water/thunder. it doesnt RETCON any of the stronger ones as they can be explained away by being the weaker ones.

5. he is a pawn

6. large structures are present to interact with in both dimensions. that is how he affected the real world. he wasnt simultaneously present in it

7. he doesnt have the power to scratch them

8. wrong on three accounts in the same sentence, wow. regulaters are present to REGULATE{i.e. channel } the ALREADY PRESENT resource. nuthing in feats or claims in game even hints towards the RESOURCE beinfg infinite. the tap can only give out as much water as is present in the tank, even if left fully open. it cant CREATE more water. similarly even if kain DID "control" all magic, he cudnt create MORE magic than was in his control. and he doesnt control it all to begin with. your not strong on logic.

1. It had already left the things mouth lol...

2. w/e, they look queer either way

3. thats not a strawman.....

4. So Clouds entire stash was weak? there wasnt even any firega etc etc in there, therefore that gives the logic of them all being retconned into diffrent blasts likely.

5. by doing what? hes no pawn at all....

6. But their the same dimension, they would be split, thus he is in both dimensions since he can affect and excist in both.

7. .....wow brillaint point, the enormous amount of logic, combined with proof was perfect

8. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regulator

One, such as the member of a governmental regulatory agency, that ensures compliance with laws, regulations, and established rules

he is the one who calls upon the rules to control magic, there is because its infnite like in any other by default, its like saying Dantes regeration stops regerating him if he has to regen for too long, its nonsense because tis a constant activity. He does control it all because hes the regulatory guardian so your taling BS again.....you didnt read the proof ive already given you earlier that Kain is the regulator, but you dont seem to understand what proof is.

BURNING FINGEEERRR!!!!

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because its mentioned in storyline tone thats why.
Uh its how the game style is presented, BO1 uses voice instead of text, but not EVERYHITNG is storyline canon, not every chained up grunt is canon just because they repeatedly go help me help me, or etc.


1. so? If Kain is the only vampire capable of learning spells (which you can't even prove) then why is Vorador able to learn spells as well?
2. What are you talking about? The entire FF7 canon storyline is based around materia, black materia trying to stop it, white materia.


Nothing suggests that any other vampire couldn't have learned the spell either, if another vampire went to dark eden, whats to say he couldn't have learned spirit death either? Only a few of Kains spells had to do with the story, like energy bolt, spirit death didn't have anything to do with the story, now stop spouting lies.


Uhh, sorry but thats a really pathetic claim, you only see them using materia 3 times in AC, the first time he used to summon bahamut sin, the second time he fired bolt at Cloud, the last time they detonated the roof.

Even if we ignore the entire FF7 storyline, Crisis Core, Before Crisis, and all the guides, novels, files, that state otherwise, your AC point is still fail.



Another fail, vampires from different games are basically different species with different power ranges,(vampires in DS are more powerful then vampires in LOK, vampires in LOK are more powerful then vampires in buffy.) But a vampire in LOK is a vampire in LOK.

No, i'm saying NOTHING suggests that a vampire in LOK is INCAPABLE of learning a spell which another vampire was able to learn genius.


Haha whats funny here is YOU were the one who has been desperately trying so hard to make spells be only limited to Kain, i never we cannot use them because they other people are able to use them, infact i said "what relevance does it even have if more then one person can use the materia/spell?" in my previous post

Yet you've been saying "Noes!! Materia is uncanon because ANYONE can use them, but Only KAIN can learn spellz!!!!" man you keep making yourself seem smarter and smarter.


So his only feats are defeating people? Great.



The entire game has no text, it doesn't mean every noise/voice you hear is part of the actual canon storyline, not every monsters "grrr" or every persons "please help me kind sir" is canon.


So then the spell IS needed to finish the story, which makes it canon.

Kains spell you can finish the story without getting the optional spell.

Dantes personal assets are unlocked by buying them, but they are really his abilities as they are always in his character, just needing to be unlocked.


He plans to gain the power of the shinra thing? Huh? Why would he want to be president of a company? Rofl.

He planned to take over the planet yes, too bad plot doesn't allow him to.


And?


They're mutating plants and animals around a tower, that is hardly "reality warping" its just simple sorcery (as its even stated), Reality Warping is being able to Warp Reality as it is, Like warping Kain into a duck, or warping a land into the ocean. What have they done as a battle feat?

The typical God, meaning all powerful, all knowing, all omniscient. Your version of Kain is the one that can kill anything.

So your saying about 23,000 people on the forum have played LOK but only 1 or 2 people actually understand it? Haha yeah ok.


Sorry but i'd rather believe the facts then your word.
http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

UOG is the Ultimania Omega Guide, the UOG says your wrong:

An in-universe explanation for why Loz often moves with a blue blur behind him is not given. It's simply said that because he's so big and bulky, they wanted to off-set his girth by making him look really fast and used the blue blur only for him to emphasise that he's fast. It's not suggested -- despite how often people think so -- that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Uh its how the game style is presented, BO1 uses voice instead of text, but not EVERYHITNG is storyline canon, not every chained up grunt is canon just because they repeatedly go help me help me, or etc.


1. so? If Kain is the only vampire capable of learning spells (which you can't even prove) then why is Vorador able to learn spells as well?
2. What are you talking about? The entire FF7 canon storyline is based around materia, black materia trying to stop it, white materia.


Nothing suggests that any other vampire couldn't have learned the spell either, if another vampire went to dark eden, whats to say he couldn't have learned spirit death either? Only a few of Kains spells had to do with the story, like energy bolt, spirit death didn't have anything to do with the story, now stop spouting lies.


Uhh, sorry but thats a really pathetic claim, you only see them using materia 3 times in AC, the first time he used to summon bahamut sin, the second time he fired bolt at Cloud, the last time they detonated the roof.

Even if we ignore the entire FF7 storyline, Crisis Core, Before Crisis, and all the guides, novels, files, that state otherwise, your AC point is still fail.



Another fail, vampires from different games are basically different species with different power ranges,(vampires in DS are more powerful then vampires in LOK, vampires in LOK are more powerful then vampires in buffy.) But a vampire in LOK is a vampire in LOK.

No, i'm saying NOTHING suggests that a vampire in LOK is INCAPABLE of learning a spell which another vampire was able to learn genius.


Haha whats funny here is YOU were the one who has been desperately trying so hard to make spells be only limited to Kain, i never we cannot use them because they other people are able to use them, infact i said "what relevance does it even have if more then one person can use the materia/spell?" in my previous post

Yet you've been saying "Noes!! Materia is uncanon because ANYONE can use them, but Only KAIN can learn spellz!!!!" man you keep making yourself seem smarter and smarter.


So his only feats are defeating people? Great.



The entire game has no text, it doesn't mean every noise/voice you hear is part of the actual canon storyline, not every monsters "grrr" or every persons "please help me kind sir" is canon.


So then the spell IS needed to finish the story, which makes it canon.

Kains spell you can finish the story without getting the optional spell.

Dantes personal assets are unlocked by buying them, but they are really his abilities as they are always in his character, just needing to be unlocked.


He plans to gain the power of the shinra thing? Huh? Why would he want to be president of a company? Rofl.

He planned to take over the planet yes, too bad plot doesn't allow him to.


And?


They're mutating plants and animals around a tower, that is hardly "reality warping" its just simple sorcery (as its even stated), Reality Warping is being able to Warp Reality as it is, Like warping Kain into a duck, or warping a land into the ocean. What have they done as a battle feat?

The typical God, meaning all powerful, all knowing, all omniscient. Your version of Kain is the one that can kill anything.

So your saying about 23,000 people on the forum have played LOK but only 1 or 2 people actually understand it? Haha yeah ok.


Sorry but i'd rather believe the facts then your word.
http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

UOG is the Ultimania Omega Guide, the UOG says your wrong:

An in-universe explanation for why Loz often moves with a blue blur behind him is not given. It's simply said that because he's so big and bulky, they wanted to off-set his girth by making him look really fast and used the blue blur only for him to emphasise that he's fast. It's not suggested -- despite how often people think so -- that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound.

wtf? yes tehy use voice just like they do in storyline and its storyline words, not "hit this key to contune" which is not. What are you talking about? your showing you dont understand storyline again, the journey between cutscenes is not "non canon"......insignifcant things like that chained up grunt are canon, simply not important to what happens to Kain during a story thus he wouldnt be mentioned, just like Sarafan Kain kills are.

1. I dont have to prove anything, the game is the source for LOK and nowhere in it do vampires have selectable abilities that are interchangable, their unique to each vampire most of the time, powers and abilities that when you gain them you cant move around like most character abiilties. Vorador learns spells, he just doesnt use all the spelsl Kain uses.

2. No i meant the materia like Kights of the round, you dont get story text for them, none that youve shown so far.

energy bolt is just as much to do with the story as all the other abilities, you just have difficulty in understanding how an abiltiy described with storyline actor text in Kains personality (so as soon as he speaks its in the game universe, not gameplay terms anyway) makes an ability which is just like every other canon in-game character ability canon.

No its not a fail because they have more than one materia, your telling me that out of about 10 materia between the last two remnants simply fireing a blast the likes of which doesnt even look like any materia in the games, thus its likely most of the materia if not all have been retconned.

Their vampires your the one who simply said "their vampires so theyll have the same powers" which is BS because their learnt powers by Kain not natural, so I mocked you point. Either way your point/argument was a waste.

That does NOT MATTER it does not matter if someone is capable, all that matters is whether or not they use it in the game Kain is capable of learnign kung fu and becoming a blackbelt level 10 given the time but the guy doesnt, so ime not going to use them in debates, your trying to use something that doesnt happen.

The Spells are limited to kain in teh way ime trying to show you that they are usable only by him uniquely, in FF materia is not only a completly optional, interchangable system where you can mvoe them between various characters thus simpl making them like items, materia doesnt afaik have no storyline text for each one, do the characters actually mention for example firega or Kights of round in a storyline fashion?

Well because only Kain in the game can use the spells HE gains

Their not relevent storyline canon but when theres a small cutscene, storyline text by the main character himself makes it completly canon.

Well some of those people could completly tool Sephiroth especialyl EG, their all feats anyway so it proves you wrong, but i dont usually use feats to back me up in debates, I use canon information.

Kains spells are all needed to finish it because some monsters require it to be easily desroyed, and its not required to finish the story, he never uses it in the story so what are you talking about?

NO because many of the spells are in your path so you cant just walk around them, but obviously the canon story is Kain gaining all the spells anyway for those that are optional.

NOt all of them, half the weapons he gains, especially some of the swords are not gained until you find them in the game and many are optional, but their used in debates:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=483909&pagenumber=2

Yeh that Shinra power, I know its a company but they have those power generators sucking on the LS.

He planned, he failed...simple..

Warping Kain into a Duck is not warping reality as much as it is transformation, warping reality is simply twisting, deforming, warpiong etc the reality whch was plants and animals, into distorted beings, as it says however, they used sorcery, but reality was distorted.

NO its not the version that can kill everything...when did I say that, unless your arrogent enough to claim Sephiroth who I call him superior over a God?..wouldnt surprise me, Pyron is not a God either so your talking a large can of BS here.

23k people dont come into the games VS forums, infacty theres prob about 5-10 recent goers, a handful, perhaps about 5 actually debate...less so prob debate Kain at all or even try, either way, most people in games VS have eithern ot play LOk or did not understand it, thus you get people claiming EG is getting buried because all tehyve seen is the last video of the game then they claim theyve played thte game...naming no names.

Ime using the same image, he moves only his arm back, so mine is also fact.

Its not suggested, simple, it didnt say ime wrong, its just not suggested, it said they used their anime graphics to make him look fast as well, thats all, either way, Kain moves faster over his smaller distance.

Originally posted by Burning thought
wtf? yes tehy use voice just like they do in storyline and its storyline words, not "hit this key to contune" which is not. What are you talking about? your showing you dont understand storyline again, the journey between cutscenes is not "non canon"......insignifcant things like that chained up grunt are canon, simply not important to what happens to Kain during a story thus he wouldnt be mentioned, just like Sarafan Kain kills are.
The optional things are NOT storyline, the mandatory things that are needed for the story to continue are storyline, its no different from the optional materia or items you get in an RPG.


Exactly you have no proof, so other vampires are most like capable of learning spells learning spells like spirit death, etc, nothing suggests they aren't capable of learning them


No, energy bolt had to do with the story, he needed that spell so that he can reach the switch, what was spirit death required in the story by? Nothing.

You don't understand, not EVERYTHING in the entire game is canon, a lot of the optional stuff are not.


.. What? Did you not read what i said properly? I told you, they used THREE materia in the entire AC movie, One summon(bahamut sin), one bolt(in the church), and another materia which looked like too many materia in the games to be specific(at the roof).
Now stop trying to argue facts, it makes you look very unintelligent.


Did you not read what I said? "Another fail, vampires from different games are basically different species with different power ranges,(vampires in DS are more powerful then vampires in LOK, vampires in LOK are more powerful then vampires in buffy.) "


I'm saying that other vampires are CAPABLE of learning it, and you're saying that they AREN'T thats the point i'm saying, i'm not saying that every single vampire has spirit death, i'm saying that a vampire is capable of learning spirit death like kain, and that spells are not only limited to kain himself, which makes it similar to materia.


Again nothing suggests that spells are limited to only Kain either, if Vorador went to dark eden, he could learn spirit death as well, When Cloud obtained the black materia (which is part of the storyline) it said "You have acquired the black materia" in the exact same fasion if you pick up an optional materia off the ground, the difference is one is optional, one is actually part of the storyline.


Spells aren't only limited to Kain. Other vampires can learn spells too.

There is no "small cutscene" wtf, theres a voice, just like you hear everywhere else, not all the voices you hear is canon, its just automatic speech when you acquire something, there is no text in the game, thats the style the game was created.


EG's feats are? Having a lot of tenticles? If EG wasn't invisible, Sephiroth would tool him, even Kain was able to beat him which makes him a laugh.


Just because you can defeat monsters more easy with it, doesn't make it canon.


Yes, Kratos spells are in his path and he cannot pass through unless he gets it, and if he cannot pass through then the story in incomplete, and in canon the story obviously did complete which means he passed through(obtaining the spell)


What are you referring to? I see cinematics of him using the weapons, which means he atually did get it in the story.


And what does that have to do with Sephiroth? Sephiroth doesn't care about Shinra, he annihilated the company in about 5 minutes.

You can say that about every single antagonist in every single game.


Reality Warping is being able to warp reality as it is, just mutating some plants and animals can hardly be called "reality warping" unless your trying to amp up something alot more then it is, hell i can melt a plastic army toy then call it reality warping, because i caused reality to be "distorted".

Plain and simple, they used sorcery and caused some plants and animals to mutate around a tower, not very impressive.


Dude, you think Kain can beat Pyron, or any DS, I don't claim Sephiroth can beat Pyron, you need to start seeing Kain as he really is, a featless character which gameplay moves.


You said 80% of the forum have never played LOK which means 20% have, out of all the people who have played LOK, only you are the person who truely understands it? Haha sorry but i find that kind of funny.


Do you even know what a body is? Its what your arms are connected to, do you see that part staying totally still?

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

Open your eyes a bit wider, look closely at the first frame, does it look identical to the last frames? If you say yes, i'm really going to laugh.

If its not identical to the last frames, then yes it has moved.

Kain puts his weight on his backleg, and springs forward with momentum.

He holds out his arm like that as proof, its like throwing a punch.


Not suggested that we should believe it has anything to do with his Dual Hound, if they don't suggest us to do something, it most likely means its because its wrong.

You claimed that the source of his speed is his blue glow, so yes you are wrong.

Originally posted by Terryc250
The optional things are NOT storyline, the mandatory things that are needed for the story to continue are storyline, its no different from the optional materia or items you get in an RPG.


Exactly you have no proof, so other vampires are most like capable of learning spells learning spells like spirit death, etc, nothing suggests they aren't capable of learning them


No, energy bolt had to do with the story, he needed that spell so that he can reach the switch, what was spirit death required in the story by? Nothing.

You don't understand, not EVERYTHING in the entire game is canon, a lot of the optional stuff are not.


.. What? Did you not read what i said properly? I told you, they used THREE materia in the entire AC movie, One summon(bahamut sin), one bolt(in the church), and another materia which looked like too many materia in the games to be specific(at the roof).
Now stop trying to argue facts, it makes you look very unintelligent.


Did you not read what I said? "Another fail, vampires from different games are basically different species with different power ranges,(vampires in DS are more powerful then vampires in LOK, vampires in LOK are more powerful then vampires in buffy.) "


I'm saying that other vampires are CAPABLE of learning it, and you're saying that they AREN'T thats the point i'm saying, i'm not saying that every single vampire has spirit death, i'm saying that a vampire is capable of learning spirit death like kain, and that spells are not only limited to kain himself, which makes it similar to materia.


Again nothing suggests that spells are limited to only Kain either, if Vorador went to dark eden, he could learn spirit death as well, When Cloud obtained the black materia (which is part of the storyline) it said "You have acquired the black materia" in the exact same fasion if you pick up an optional materia off the ground, the difference is one is optional, one is actually part of the storyline.


Spells aren't only limited to Kain. Other vampires can learn spells too.

There is no "small cutscene" wtf, theres a voice, just like you hear everywhere else, not all the voices you hear is canon, its just automatic speech when you acquire something, there is no text in the game, thats the style the game was created.


EG's feats are? Having a lot of tenticles? If EG wasn't invisible, Sephiroth would tool him, even Kain was able to beat him which makes him a laugh.


Just because you can defeat monsters more easy with it, doesn't make it canon.


Yes, Kratos spells are in his path and he cannot pass through unless he gets it, and if he cannot pass through then the story in incomplete, and in canon the story obviously did complete which means he passed through(obtaining the spell)


What are you referring to? I see cinematics of him using the weapons, which means he atually did get it in the story.


And what does that have to do with Sephiroth? Sephiroth doesn't care about Shinra, he annihilated the company in about 5 minutes.

You can say that about every single antagonist in every single game.


Reality Warping is being able to warp reality as it is, just mutating some plants and animals can hardly be called "reality warping" unless your trying to amp up something alot more then it is, hell i can melt a plastic army toy then call it reality warping, because i caused reality to be "distorted".

Plain and simple, they used sorcery and caused some plants and animals to mutate around a tower, not very impressive.


Dude, you think Kain can beat Pyron, or any DS, I don't claim Sephiroth can beat Pyron, you need to start seeing Kain as he really is, a featless character which gameplay moves.


You said 80% of the forum have never played LOK which means 20% have, out of all the people who have played LOK, only you are the person who truely understands it? Haha sorry but i find that kind of funny.


Do you even know what a body is? Its what your arms are connected to, do you see that part staying totally still?

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

Open your eyes a bit wider, look closely at the first frame, does it look identical to the last frames? If you say yes, i'm really going to laugh.

If its not identical to the last frames, then yes it has moved.

Kain puts his weight on his backleg, and springs forward with momentum.

He holds out his arm like that as proof, its like throwing a punch.


Not suggested that we should believe it has anything to do with his Dual Hound, if they don't suggest us to do something, it most likely means its because its wrong.

You claimed that the source of his speed is his blue glow, so yes you are wrong.

yes it is because those things you mention are not mentioend in storyline script or unique to that character.

I dont need proof, as i said, no vampire in LOK uses the same spells but more importantly their not interchangable like Materia are and manipulated by the character.

YOU dont understand, a lot of the optional things are more like the real versions especially when storyline in character speech speaks of them, if Kain says something in the game like when he finds these spells then its just as canon as any other ability.

They dont use one materia on the roof, not even close, they have about 5 in each of their arms, you can see them glowing

Ime not saying they cant, ime saying its not proven in the games that any vampire gains or uses that spell thus its unique to Kain in the game.

Thing is what makes that storyline materia real is the storyline that goes with it, which all of the LOK spells have as soon as a character speaks of them in the gaming universe character portray.

The voice is exactley like a cutscene, the player is not controlling the power at the time and its not gameplay, its Kains in character, IN THE STORY UNIVERSE. speech not a gameplay dialogue text

A lot? the guy is larger than most FF7 monsters put together, infact hes likely far larger than the city the game is mostly set in since his mass is across continents, so no, Sephiroth wouldnt even begin to fight the thing whether it was invisble or not then youve got the fact it can regerate limbs, infact double upon them (like a hydra) instantly.

In canon the storyline of GOW Kratos passes through events like killing the hydra and the cutscenes, but technically the paths the player takes is all gameplay thus being barred by some planks of wood are not necceserily canon, thus in the canon Kratos could have gone around, smashed through another way etc etc, thus your theory is incorrect since although the gameplay has to continue for the player, kratos story has already been written and none of those powers are in line with it, however their still canon, just like Kains.

How is a cinematic of him using it mean its in the story? what are you calling story? you see now were getting to another heart of the matter, you seem to think something has to be a cinematic to excist in the storyline? Dante slashing about with the sword is exactley what he does in the gamepaly as well. He may even have some speech which Kain has...its the speech that is the main "canon" since attacks and movements are in the gameplay, but the characters speech that he does once only when he gains the power is what means something.

Shinra used lifestream energy, Sephiroth failed to gain all the energy in his manipulations.

I know I can...and their failures still.

Reality warping is warping reality, simple, and no, thats not wraping reality since that IS reality, toy soldiers should due to reality melt when you burn them, thats science, wheras warping plants and animals into diffrent things that in reality they are not is reality warping.

mutating usually means genetic, it describes there were mutants created among the distortion but not only, read my source again.

Sephiroth does not have the ability to do so, Kain however does have a variety of powers that can that Pyron cannot be canonically stated to resist, and ive listed Kains feats so your in denial, his spells are his capabilities also, written in the games lore, not just gameplay like interchangable materia.

I also said that only about 5 people are regulaour in this forum, thus 20% is one...which means I was referring to myself, who else plays it and actually understand what going on? I mean if they can they ask me a hellava lot of questions and ask for proof if they belive to have played the games, I would not ask for so much proof if I had played through all the games and seen all the information Sephiroth has or other chracters.

No its not completly identicaly, Kains arm has moved back....thats it..Kain doesnt spring, if you watch the video again, his legs are static as he moves forwards, some sort of supernatural mumbo jumbo but there it is.

Or because its simply not suggested....

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes it is because those things you mention are not mentioend in storyline script or unique to that character.
Spirit death doesn't have a storyline dialogue either, nor are spells unique to just Kain.


We don't see Rufus using Fire3 materia, but does that mean he's incapable of using it? No. We've seen Rufus use materia before.

We don't see vampires using Spirit Death, but does that mean they're incapable of learning it? No. We've seen vampires use spells before.


Why do you keep saying storyline speech when it isn't? It has nothing to do with the story so its not a plot dialogue speech. So stop lying.


And? Maybe they're casting more then one spell.


But spells in general are not unique for only Kain, Vampires can learn spells just as humans can use materia.

The only 100% canon materia are the ones that were part of the story, the rest of the optional ones are just "maybes" same thing as Kains optional spells.


Voice is not a cutscene, its more like text, BO has its cutscenes like when he cuts off Moebius' head.


Uhh just hit him in his big eye in a similar fasion Kain did, eventually he'll go down. He didn't look impressive at all when Kain was fighting him.


If the game forces you to get the power, then Kratos most likely does get the power.

Like i said before, all optional things are just a "maybe" like maybe Cloud did get Knights of the Round, but theres no proof that he did, so we cannot say he has it, if the game forced Kratos to gain that power, then he most likely did get it.

Nothing suggests that Kain obtained that optional spell, the fact that in the next 4 sequals its never used, and unheard suggests that he probably didn't.


A cinematic means its in the story because no matter what, that cinematic HAS to happen, therefore it HAS to of happened, you cannot skip that cinematic, you cannot go a different way for that cinematic to not happen, it HAS to happen for the story to finish.

You don't understand, theres only ONE true canon story, its not exactly the same as how the player played the game

For example:

Player1: Played through the game and obtained every single item artifact and spell

Player2: Played through the game and obtained different items, and didn't get all the spells

It does NOT mean Player1's story is the canon one.

However; throughout both of their games the SAME cinematics happened, like Kain having a sword through him and being turned into a vampire, and Kain cutting off Moebius' head, those are all canon.

All the optional gameplay things are just "maybes"



Shinra had reactors to use lifestream as a source of energy, so they can have electricity to their cities and crap, what does Shinra have to do with Sephiroths goals?

Sephiroth wanted to absorb the lifestream and become a god.

They had entirely different motives, so i don't see what you're trying to say about Sephiroth trying to use Shinra..


And mutating plants and animals is due to their sorcery like its stated, its not "Reality Warping" haha, stop trying to amp up things more then it is please.


Kains feats are beating people who would be crushed by Pyron farting, Kain has never Soul ripped anyone in the LOK Plot, even if you do let him have his optional spell, he's never soul ripped anyone worth mentioning in the LOK Universe let alone anyone from a more powerful universe.


No, people ask for your proof because we don't buy your bs, and guess what? You always fail to deliver proof, so that must mean something.

You can see him putting his weight on his back leg so he can spring forward.. god..

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

You really would do anything to amp up Kains power, its really getting a bit sad.


If the creators suggest you not to think that Loz' speed comes from his Dual Hound, it basically means it doesn't.

Your really picking at every little thing to try to downplay characters you don't like, and amp up characters you want, its funny.. you should start looking at things logically.

Btw leon, I'm pretty sure BT is joking about that Materia Retconned comment, i don't think his intelligence is THAT low.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Spirit death doesn't have a storyline dialogue either, nor are spells unique to just Kain.


We don't see Rufus using Fire3 materia, but does that mean he's incapable of using it? No. We've seen Rufus use materia before.

We don't see vampires using Spirit Death, but does that mean they're incapable of learning it? No. We've seen vampires use spells before.


Why do you keep saying storyline speech when it isn't? It has nothing to do with the story so its not a plot dialogue speech. So stop lying.


And? Maybe they're casting more then one spell.


But spells in general are not unique for only Kain, Vampires can learn spells just as humans can use materia.

The only 100% canon materia are the ones that were part of the story, the rest of the optional ones are just "maybes" same thing as Kains optional spells.


Voice is not a cutscene, its more like text, BO has its cutscenes like when he cuts off Moebius' head.


Uhh just hit him in his big eye in a similar fasion Kain did, eventually he'll go down. He didn't look impressive at all when Kain was fighting him.


If the game forces you to get the power, then Kratos most likely does get the power.

Like i said before, all optional things are just a "maybe" like maybe Cloud did get Knights of the Round, but theres no proof that he did, so we cannot say he has it, if the game forced Kratos to gain that power, then he most likely did get it.

Nothing suggests that Kain obtained that optional spell, the fact that in the next 4 sequals its never used, and unheard suggests that he probably didn't.


A cinematic means its in the story because no matter what, that cinematic HAS to happen, therefore it HAS to of happened, you cannot skip that cinematic, you cannot go a different way for that cinematic to not happen, it HAS to happen for the story to finish.

You don't understand, theres only ONE true canon story, its not exactly the same as how the player played the game

For example:

Player1: Played through the game and obtained every single item artifact and spell

Player2: Played through the game and obtained different items, and didn't get all the spells

It does NOT mean Player1's story is the canon one.

However; throughout both of their games the SAME cinematics happened, like Kain having a sword through him and being turned into a vampire, and Kain cutting off Moebius' head, those are all canon.

All the optional gameplay things are just "maybes"



Shinra had reactors to use lifestream as a source of energy, so they can have electricity to their cities and crap, what does Shinra have to do with Sephiroths goals?

Sephiroth wanted to absorb the lifestream and become a god.

They had entirely different motives, so i don't see what you're trying to say about Sephiroth trying to use Shinra..


And mutating plants and animals is due to their sorcery like its stated, its not "Reality Warping" haha, stop trying to amp up things more then it is please.


Kains feats are beating people who would be crushed by Pyron farting, Kain has never Soul ripped anyone in the LOK Plot, even if you do let him have his optional spell, he's never soul ripped anyone worth mentioning in the LOK Universe let alone anyone from a more powerful universe.


No, people ask for your proof because we don't buy your bs, and guess what? You always fail to deliver proof, so that must mean something.

You can see him putting his weight on his back leg so he can spring forward.. god..

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif

You really would do anything to amp up Kains power, its really getting a bit sad.


If the creators suggest you not to think that Loz' speed comes from his Dual Hound, it basically means it doesn't.

Your really picking at every little thing to try to downplay characters you don't like, and amp up characters you want, its funny.. you should start looking at things logically.

They are unique to him in the LOK series, its simply "possible" others can gain it but they neither do nor do they get interchangable materia esque powers, and ive shown you the storyline text.

ofc anyone can use Materia, its just some item you can interchange between characters anyway, as soon as that fact is known Materia cannot be used as anything to gauge spells in LOK by, which are not interchangable between characters, your simply guessing that they are, but its not shown.

it is storyline, its IN CHARACTER speech connected with the universe of the game, thus its not gameplay

and? well out of 10 of those materia, none of them emit more than a blast of energy.....

Materia however in the game is interchangable items, expendable items like Devil stars in DMC, their not unique unsable items in debates, however spells are because only Kain actually kains them in the game and uses them, regardless of whether it IS possible or not for others to use it, going by your logic almost every power in fiction is not usable in debates because other beings can use it, more people than just Sephritoh can use his sword attacks, does that mean he cannot slash? no...

Their nothing like Kains spells, their interchangable in the game and controlled almost completly by the player, the spells being optional means nothing when they have in-universe storyline text to back them up. unfortatley, most materia dont have that, only gameplay

but its NOT TEXT, its in-universe speech, as soon as Kain says it in his personality tone for the game, and the fact hes THE main character as well makes the spell p[art of the universe, just not a gameplay mechanic...their part of the universe for being in the game full stop anyway but you seem to be in denile because heavens above if Kain has his spells to annhilate your fave characters with.

No he wouldnt look impressive, because thats gameplay, out of gameplay he is vast, thing is only Kain has the reaver which has proven to be the only blade to harm EG, if you had played th e game you would know he has hundreds of those "big eyes" throughout Nosgoth so for some reason the reaver harms the whole of the being, the main reason is likely the most obvious, it harms souls in general, which is the entire body of a being, not just the part being slashed.

false, the fact Kain has in-universe dialogue for each one means that if you line up all the speeches made my kain in the universe, he has gained those powers.

The cinematic happens true but that doesnt make the item in question canon.

Ofcourse theres only one true canon story, which is the one where Kain gains all the spells otherwise theres things that Kain has not said which are all to do with the unvierse in question, as ive said before there are many powers such as Mist that Kain carries with him throughout the games that he gains just like he does other spells, same with Spirit death, he seems to use what looks exactley like it in Soul reaver 1, either way shape or form, he has a line of story text/in unvierse dialogue that makes the spell imeidatley part of the games universe that Kain gains.

Doesnt Sephiroth use one of those reactors to some effect?

It is reality warping, their just using Sorcery to gain the effect of reality warping...reality is still warped....

not really, since Pyron still doesnt have any soul resistances so by default most beings in LOK who can cause soul rip could destroy him and he can still neither see nor touch EG, either way Kain with Spirit death can destroy Pyron with ease since Pyron has no resistances stated. Also stop making paradoxes, "a more powerful universe" its not a more powerful unvierse if the spell in question can destroy Pyron with a shot.....by what means is it more powerful...hell Demitri has a weakness as a vampire Kain lost when he was young so vampires in LOK have osme abilities more powerful than DS counterparts.

What? fail to give proof? ive given proof for every question put to me so stop BS yourself, infact youve got no evidence, just assumption for perhaps your entire list of arguments.

Kain doesnt spring anyway "god", the guy moves his arm back, thats it, your trying to argue that a guy whos legs dont even move while he moves about 4 meters is apprently springing? wtf.....nobody in real life can do that and more so, he is moving a far distance so that would be impossible to spring that distance anyway, the guys legs dont evne move as he goes forwards, if it was a leap h would bend his knees, if it was a momentum he would have to move his legs and upper back, but he doesnt, he simply moves forwards.

You really would do anything to downplay a character...it really is getting sad...

Or as the actrual source says..."suggests"

Originally posted by Terryc250
Btw leon, I hope BT doesnt carry on with his argument on materia being retconned, he may actually have a point there...why am i talking to you? your banned for 9 more days..damn...hmm

Originally posted by Burning thought
They are unique to him in the LOK series, its simply "possible" others can gain it but they neither do nor do they get interchangable materia esque powers, and ive shown you the storyline text.
And its possible for others to use materia as well, your point?

Learning spells can be learned by other vampires, Materia can be used by other humans, thats the bottom line, i dont see what you are getting at.


Storyline means it has to do with the story, does it? No, so no its not storyline.

Its a speech like any other speech, not every voice you hear makes it canon, there no text in the game, only voices.


Says who? It could be Fire1, Fire2, Fire3, Flamethrower, Dynamite, Flare, who knows.


Why does that matter? We've only seen Kadaj use Bahamut Sin, so? Other people are capable of using it as other vampires are capable of learning spells.

Why is almost every power not usable in debates? Who said that just because other people can use its powers it cannot be used in debates? Who said that?


So? Other vampires can learn spells as well. Optional spells that have nothing to do with the story means its possible that Kain never got it in the story, the fact that Kain doesn't have it and cannot use it basically means he doesn't have it.

So unless you give me proof he has it, my point stands.


You get DIALOGUE for EVERYTHING in Blood Omen, its just how the game style is, theres no text.

Your just repeating yourself now because you fail to provide any evidence.


Facts are facts, Kain beat him by cutting up some tenticles and stabbing him in the eye a bunch of times, EG hasn't done anything impressive, sorry but its true, unless you can show me (which i know you wont)


optional spells are not 100% canon, unless you can provide me evidence he actually got it in the plot, the fact is its never heard of again suggests that he never got it.


.. a cinematic is a movie file that plays, no matter what that movie file will play and that movie will show him with that weapon, so that weapon MUST be in the cinematic which means he MUST have it.


No, theres no proof that Kain went through the plot gaining every single item/spell in the entire game, just as theres no proof Cloud went through the FF7 adventure gaining every single item in the game as well.

He has a dialogue describing the spell he acquires, just like any other optional spell, it has nothing to do with the story.


Uhh why the hell would he do that, he's Sephiroth.


.. That makes little to no sense, your just trying to add in "reality warp" in there to make them seem powerful, they're just simply using sorcery ok?

I can say the same and be like "I used my lighter to cause the REALITY WARPING of the toy soldier, see! the Soldier is warping into mush!"


Kain has never soul ripped anyone in the entire plot, Pyron speedblitz' the entire planet from lightyears away, and the planet goes bye along with EG and Kain.


Lol you've givin me ZERO proof, please go on and attempt at telling me where you've proved something.


LOL do you even know what "Not moving your body, just your arm" looks like? So i'm guessing you think that when a boxer throws a Hook punch, they don't move their body at all right? His knees are bent, and he is putting weight in his back leg, then he springs at him stabbing him.

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif


Asking for evidence is not downplaying anything, you failing to provide me with some is.


Do you know what suggest means? The source does not say "It doesn't say whether it comes from the dual hound" <-- thats a whole different phrase

"Its not suggested that you do drugs" means you shouldnt do drugs

"Its not suggested that you party a lot" means you shouldnt party lots

"Its not suggested, despite how often people think so, that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound" means it doesn't have anything to do with his dual hound despite the fact that some people think that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
And its possible for others to use materia as well, your point?

Learning spells can be learned by other vampires, Materia can be used by other humans, thats the bottom line, i dont see what you are getting at.


Storyline means it has to do with the story, does it? No, so no its not storyline.

Its a speech like any other speech, not every voice you hear makes it canon, there no text in the game, only voices.


Says who? It could be Fire1, Fire2, Fire3, Flamethrower, Dynamite, Flare, who knows.


Why does that matter? We've only seen Kadaj use Bahamut Sin, so? Other people are capable of using it as other vampires are capable of learning spells.

Why is almost every power not usable in debates? Who said that just because other people can use its powers it cannot be used in debates? Who said that?


So? Other vampires can learn spells as well. Optional spells that have nothing to do with the story means its possible that Kain never got it in the story, the fact that Kain doesn't have it and cannot use it basically means he doesn't have it.

So unless you give me proof he has it, my point stands.


You get DIALOGUE for EVERYTHING in Blood Omen, its just how the game style is, theres no text.

Your just repeating yourself now because you fail to provide any evidence.


Facts are facts, Kain beat him by cutting up some tenticles and stabbing him in the eye a bunch of times, EG hasn't done anything impressive, sorry but its true, unless you can show me (which i know you wont)


optional spells are not 100% canon, unless you can provide me evidence he actually got it in the plot, the fact is its never heard of again suggests that he never got it.


.. a cinematic is a movie file that plays, no matter what that movie file will play and that movie will show him with that weapon, so that weapon MUST be in the cinematic which means he MUST have it.


No, theres no proof that Kain went through the plot gaining every single item/spell in the entire game, just as theres no proof Cloud went through the FF7 adventure gaining every single item in the game as well.

He has a dialogue describing the spell he acquires, just like any other optional spell, it has nothing to do with the story.


Uhh why the hell would he do that, he's Sephiroth.


.. That makes little to no sense, your just trying to add in "reality warp" in there to make them seem powerful, they're just simply using sorcery ok?

I can say the same and be like "I used my lighter to cause the REALITY WARPING of the toy soldier, see! the Soldier is warping into mush!"


Kain has never soul ripped anyone in the entire plot, Pyron speedblitz' the entire planet from lightyears away, and the planet goes bye along with EG and Kain.


Lol you've givin me ZERO proof, please go on and attempt at telling me where you've proved something.


LOL do you even know what "Not moving your body, just your arm" looks like? So i'm guessing you think that when a boxer throws a Hook punch, they don't move their body at all right? His knees are bent, and he is putting weight in his back leg, then he springs at him stabbing him.

http://i34.tinypic.com/w9il92.gif


Asking for evidence is not downplaying anything, you failing to provide me with some is.


Do you know what suggest means? The source does not say "It doesn't say whether it comes from the dual hound" <-- thats a whole different phrase

"Its not suggested that you do drugs" means you shouldnt do drugs

"Its not suggested that you party a lot" means you shouldnt party lots

"Its not suggested, despite how often people think so, that it has anything to do with his Dual Hound" means it doesn't have anything to do with his dual hound despite the fact that some people think that.

Problem is they actualyl do in the game have an interchangable system, its not just possible, it happens and even worse its selected by the player and most of the materia have zero in-universe text about them as well, its all gameplay.

No it doesnt have to do with the actual main storyline, its imediatley part of kains story however, him gaining it, when he says hes got it....simple..

The voice is the main character gaining a power, exactley like a cutscene when Dante claims he gains a weapon and uses it, the fact that the player is not in control of what Kain says then means that its just as canon as a cutscene because the player is not in control of the character then either.

Fire spells dont look like explosions, the guys have 10 between them, theres not a cats chance in hell that their all Fire spells, ive seen fire spells and they dont just look like explosions fired out of your arm, the fact that theres no other materia other than blasts like that one and that creature makes it obvious that if theres no a more recent version that has canon usage of these powers, their non-canon AND retconned to just being blasts.

Learning powers and spells that weve not seen them in the game do so thus its irrelvent whether they can or not, but simply add this to myfirst point, they all tie in

You cannot use interchangable items that are not unique to a character in debates, just like items characters in the game get, characters gain access to only their own items ,not other peoples.

No its not, because their part of the story as soon as Kain in-character says so, if he said something like "press A and fire Spirit death", thats gameplay but he makes them part of the story when he talks of gaining it. If you had a line of script for Kain, you dont just put a line through the bits you dont like, thats what your trying to do now.

Your point is destroyed because Kain himself says he gains it, Kain>>(infnitely) Terry unfortatley for you.

Thats a copout, your calling it gamestyle? okie so DMC gamestyle is using cinematics to show off weapons, but their still not canon? your points are so full of bias and rubbish...as soon as kain speaks of them in-character, their his.

Your just repating yourself because you know ive already given the evidence, you simply dont want to concede, youll disapear in a week and not reply to my last post most likely instead of conceding because yo know ime right.

yeh, not using the Masurmane or the buster sword though was it? he was using the superior Soul reaver empowered with so many enchantments and powers that its ability for damaging the EG was in itself incredible, the main thing is, they are not the facts, in gamepaly he cut up some tentacles and the eye however in teh actual story, all we know is that he defeated the EG inside the citadel, not to mention EG has shown he can instantly regenrate his tentcales AND multiply them.

Their part of the plot as soon as he speaks of them..

And Kains dialogue is a speech file that plays when he gains the spells. That dialogue will play and Kain will always say he gained the spell, no matter what.

There is proof, Cloud doesnt give a storyline example of what it is and how the items he gains are part of the game unvierse in general, Kain has his own speech on what the power is and how its relevent in person, ive played FF games, all it says is "you gained Phoenoix downx2" or something like that.

Ime adding reality warp because their warping reality, your simply denying it because it doesnt exactley say "reality warping", but changing reality from normal creatures to alternat beings is warping reality from what it should be.

Youve already tried that one, realities rules specify that that soldier would melt because the solid reaching a certain temperature will turn to a liquid due to density, wheras theres no scientific reason that the reality of those beings would have to be changed to diffrent forms.

what planet? Nosgoth? as soon as he gets within the immutable timeline he will disintegrate so no......

Ive proven Kains spells are part of the story by showing you his dialogue that makes them part of the games universe, thats my proof, thats all I need, wheres your evidence for your claims?

He doesnt put weight on his back leg, it was already there like that before he launches himself because he turned around to see Moebius/Raziel, he didnt launch himself at all through any physical means at least.

Ive provided more evidence than you, your only evidence is concerning kains speed which is not evidence, its simpyl the video I provided you with ages ago which I am also using at the same time, your simply denying what ime saying about it becauyse for some reason you belive Kain is somehow "springing" along 4/5 meters in a split second just because he moves his arm back for striking.

Suggests mean exactley what it says, its a suggestion, nothing has to suggest to determine whether he used the duel hound for speed or not, then again nothing suggests he is not using the duel hand, its a double standard.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Problem is they actualyl do in the game have an interchangable system, its not just possible, it happens and even worse its selected by the player and most of the materia have zero in-universe text about them as well, its all gameplay.
Theres no difference between the text that describes the materia, and the voice that describes the spell, again theres no text in BO, but rather voice.

All that system has nothing to do with it, the bottom line is Materia can be used by people, as spells can be learned by vampires.


No its part of YOUR story, not the canon story, the optional things in gameplay are not guaranteed canon unless its proven, its all "maybes".


No its not like a cutscene, its like TEXT, the game chooses to use voices instead of text thats all, the cutscene is the cutscene like when it shows Kain being turned into a vampire.


What are you talking about? Fire3 looks like a huge explosion, so does flare, so does dynamite, they all are basically just fire exlosions, the one on the roof could've been anyone of them or all of them.

Ret-conned to being blasts? Sorry but, are you stupid? Do you even know what ret-conned means? If it was retconned then there should be an explaination saying that "White and Black materia were not really materia" and a bunch of other things to explain all the events of FF7 and the "materia" that have been in the storyline like the giant materias, etc. plus the fact that there was materia in DoC which happens AFTER AC, and all the guides that explain about materia and the different ypes of materia,

Haha retconned just because YOU (who haven't even played any of the games) can't find any similar materia of the one on the roof, when there are thousands of materia on the planet (even ones that have never been shown) and theres TONS that look like that.

-Continued from last post




Going by that logic, spells are not unique to Kain so can can't use spells? No, its if the character actually got the item/spell in their story then they can use it, if Vincent really gained his proto-type materia to control his limit Chaos in the story, then he gets to use it in debates, if Dante really got the Yamoto(vergils weapon) in the story (which he did) then it could be used in a debate.

All other optional spells/materia/items have to be proven that the character actually obtained it in the plot before it can be used.


Its not part of the story, if player1 beat BO, 3 times, and he never obtained that optional spell then its not part of his story is it? However spells like Energy Bolt that was needed in the story, and EVERYONE who beats BO had to obtain it, then it is part of the story.

Text/dialogue/voice for optional items/materia/spells make no difference.


You have a problem comprehending things i see, optional things are optional, people who beat BO don't get it all the time, its not part of the plot, sorry BT but you have to face the truth some day.


... You have trouble reading? I said the cinematics ARE canon, cinematics are just movies played once you reach a certain point, that movie never changes, the weapon in the characters hand never changes, and the beating the game that cinematic HAS to play because its part of the plot, which makes part of the plot = part of the story which makes the weapon in the characters hand, CANON.

Like ive said before, not all the voices you hear are plot canon, you hear "help me help me kind sir" like probably 5000 times throughout the game, its just the BO has ZERO text and just voices, so if you gain a optional spell, of course it'll describe it with a voice.



LOL its hilarious how you say "I've given you evidence! I've given you proof" when you've given me NOTHING, if you have i wouldn't be typing this right now, so then wheres this evidence/proof? Now watch you reply "I've already given it to you!" or something stupid like that.


And? Sephiroths masamune is made up of the negative lifestream, which is basically everything souls, life, power, energy, magic

So those tenticles get chopped up like butter, its fact that he can be defeated by getting stabbed in the eye enough times.


Do i have to explain it to you again?

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.


Yes, but it means nothing, its just dialogue, read above.


Kain doesn't have a storyline plot on gaining Spirit Death either.
You just get a description of the optional spell if you acquire it like any other optional spell.


No, it says sorcery, and your just adding "reality warping" to make it sound powerful, when it really isn't even much of a feat, if they can instantly mutate people they fight then it would be a feat.

And the plants are mutating due to the sorcery as its stated, you adding "ZoMg Reality warping!!!" is as meaningless as me adding reality warping to the toy soldier.


well duh, no character really goes into another video games universe unless they developers do a collaberation. Its about basing it on the characters power, IF Pyron was in the LOK Universe (I know he won't be so save yourself the time of going "ZOMG HES NOT HE'LL DISINTEGRATE!!" he can bust the planet easily.


Thats not proof genius, prove kain has the optional spell, example, him being able to use it, or him using it in the plot, a voice description of the optional spell means nothing, since the game is based on voices anyway.


Dude, putting weight back does NOT mean moving your foot back, no one does that, putting weight back is shifting your body so that weight goes on your back leg so you can spring forward. Like throwing a hook punch.


He did spring forward, obviously you're going to deny it because your Burning Thought and the character is Kain, but im speaking realistically, sorry.


There creators suggest that hes not using the Dual Hound LOL, which means hes most likely NOT using the Dual hound for speed, understand that.

Originally posted by Terryc250
-Continued from last post




Going by that logic, spells are not unique to Kain so can can't use spells? No, its if the character actually got the item/spell in their story then they can use it, if Vincent really gained his proto-type materia to control his limit Chaos in the story, then he gets to use it in debates, if Dante really got the Yamoto(vergils weapon) in the story (which he did) then it could be used in a debate.

All other optional spells/materia/items have to be proven that the character actually obtained it in the plot before it can be used.


Its not part of the story, if player1 beat BO, 3 times, and he never obtained that optional spell then its not part of his story is it? However spells like Energy Bolt that was needed in the story, and EVERYONE who beats BO had to obtain it, then it is part of the story.

Text/dialogue/voice for optional items/materia/spells make no difference.


You have a problem comprehending things i see, optional things are optional, people who beat BO don't get it all the time, its not part of the plot, sorry BT but you have to face the truth some day.


... You have trouble reading? I said the cinematics ARE canon, cinematics are just movies played once you reach a certain point, that movie never changes, the weapon in the characters hand never changes, and the beating the game that cinematic HAS to play because its part of the plot, which makes part of the plot = part of the story which makes the weapon in the characters hand, CANON.

Like ive said before, not all the voices you hear are plot canon, you hear "help me help me kind sir" like probably 5000 times throughout the game, its just the BO has ZERO text and just voices, so if you gain a optional spell, of course it'll describe it with a voice.



LOL its hilarious how you say "I've given you evidence! I've given you proof" when you've given me NOTHING, if you have i wouldn't be typing this right now, so then wheres this evidence/proof? Now watch you reply "I've already given it to you!" or something stupid like that.


And? Sephiroths masamune is made up of the negative lifestream, which is basically everything souls, life, power, energy, magic

So those tenticles get chopped up like butter, its fact that he can be defeated by getting stabbed in the eye enough times.


Do i have to explain it to you again?

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.


Yes, but it means nothing, its just dialogue, read above.


Kain doesn't have a storyline plot on gaining Spirit Death either.
You just get a description of the optional spell if you acquire it like any other optional spell.


No, it says sorcery, and your just adding "reality warping" to make it sound powerful, when it really isn't even much of a feat, if they can instantly mutate people they fight then it would be a feat.

And the plants are mutating due to the sorcery as its stated, you adding "ZoMg Reality warping!!!" is as meaningless as me adding reality warping to the toy soldier.


well duh, no character really goes into another video games universe unless they developers do a collaberation. Its about basing it on the characters power, IF Pyron was in the LOK Universe (I know he won't be so save yourself the time of going "ZOMG HES NOT HE'LL DISINTEGRATE!!" he can bust the planet easily.


Thats not proof genius, prove kain has the optional spell, example, him being able to use it, or him using it in the plot, a voice description of the optional spell means nothing, since the game is based on voices anyway.


Dude, putting weight back does NOT mean moving your foot back, no one does that, putting weight back is shifting your body so that weight goes on your back leg so you can spring forward. Like throwing a hook punch.


He did spring forward, obviously you're going to deny it because your Burning Thought and the character is Kain, but im speaking realistically, sorry.


There creators suggest that hes not using the Dual Hound LOL, which means hes most likely NOT using the Dual hound for speed, understand that.

But they are unique to him in the game, the player cannot interchange the item with another character, there isnt even another PC anyway, their unique to each character through storyline, Kain himself says he gains the spell, thus it can be used. Kain did gain the spell, he says so in the story...

As i said 100 times before, Kain himself says he gains the spells, thats in the BO script.....that alone is enough proof to make the spell usable by Kain in any debate.

The Voice means everything, the diffrence is Materia and other non canon things dont have that...you cant show me I bet..

The spells being optional does not make them canon, Dantes shotgun is optional yet its used in debates and is canon for the reason it excists in the game and he gains it, the players decision not to get something is whats irrelvent, the spell itself having Kains dialogue for it makes it canon.

You have trouble understanding your own broken logic? Kains voice in-universe notification of the power are just voices played once you gain a certain spell., that notification never changes...see what I did ther!

yes you would because you deny all evidence and ignore it so you dont have to concede, at the moment youve given me zero proof of any of your claims, just broken logic, youve not even made any counter point proof, ive given you a lot of evidence:

Originally posted by Burning thought

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/dejoule.php?sec=1&type=1


For Dejoules energy manip already your "youve given no proof" is BS, lets see some more:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php

this page has given you all of Kains script and dialogue on those spells in question, more proof that kains speech is not simply a gameplay mechanic, it has nothing of the sort, the description under that is the gameplay but his speech puts hat spell in his canon storyline path

so...this brings me to..wheres your evidence?

Although proof has shown it to be pretty indeffective overall and is no more than a long sword......also being made of something doesnt mean it has the power of that something, its shown no power to take souls or afaik any magical enchantment at all, in AC it does not do much, in KH it does little.

YOu can explain your delusions but they dont mean anything since:

The players story is irrelvent, Kains speech IS relevent since its a constant, just because a player chooses not to take a spell which is often in their path anyway doesnt make hte spell uncanon because thats a player decision, the fact Kain has a speech for them means their canon because the speech is not a player decision...you have no argument.

But does any of Clouds speeches/text talk about KotR like Kain does, or does it just say something like "press this and KOtr does A and B etc etc"

Its not, as ive already for some reason explained to you, the Toy soldier melting is reality, it supposed to, your saying those animals are supposed to mutate/tranform? it doesnt matter if magic is used, in a way magic is a form of reality warping, since a fireball appearing out of nowhere is not part of reality itself, infact I think your confused, I think by reality warping you mean transformation, like when you said turning Kain into a duck or sephiroth into toilot paper etc etc, thats transformation not just reality warping.

What are you saying? Pyron full stop would be dissolved by being in LOK universe...wtf you talking about? Pyron would if hes not simply transported to a random dimension by Azimoth first due to Moebius forseeing Pyrons coming years before it happens......so yeh, Pyron has no chance even if for some magical reason the timeline allows it. And thats if Kain doesnt just kill the guy.

The voice description means everything, its just like storyline because its in-character, its nothing to do with gameplay therefore by denomination and how Kain is saying it, its canon unvierse material...

Only his arm moves backwards, as ive said, your going to contiually deny it, form now on until youve actually got better evidence of your claim ill simply quote this again and again, the guy moves instantly faster than Loz over his shorter distance either way.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Theres no difference between the text that describes the materia, and the voice that describes the spell, again theres no text in BO, but rather voice.

All that system has nothing to do with it, the bottom line is Materia can be used by people, as spells can be learned by vampires.


No its part of YOUR story, not the canon story, the optional things in gameplay are not guaranteed canon unless its proven, its all "maybes".


No its not like a cutscene, its like TEXT, the game chooses to use voices instead of text thats all, the cutscene is the cutscene like when it shows Kain being turned into a vampire.


What are you talking about? Fire3 looks like a huge explosion, so does flare, so does dynamite, they all are basically just fire exlosions, the one on the roof could've been anyone of them or all of them.

Ret-conned to being blasts? Sorry but, are you stupid? Do you even know what ret-conned means? If it was retconned then there should be an explaination saying that "White and Black materia were not really materia" and a bunch of other things to explain all the events of FF7 and the "materia" that have been in the storyline like the giant materias, etc. plus the fact that there was materia in DoC which happens AFTER AC, and all the guides that explain about materia and the different ypes of materia,

Haha retconned just because YOU (who haven't even played any of the games) can't find any similar materia of the one on the roof, when there are thousands of materia on the planet (even ones that have never been shown) and theres TONS that look like that.

Ok prove this, you keep harping on about proof, prove its the same thing, ime looking for somethnig like

Cloud: Firega materia, created by the power of hte lifestream etc etc

either way its still an interchangable non unique power.

No because the system is massively important, until we see another vampire that the players can choose to have their spells on, the spells are stll unique to Kain by all subject of proof.

Can you prove your reasoning behind this? imo if the main character speaks in-character as if part of the LOK universe which Kain does about the spell without any gameplay hinted, its part of Kains script that he would alway say when he gains the spell, thus its canon that Kain gains the spell in the storyline.

Its just as good canon as a cutscene, as i said before, prove your reasoning? what makes you say the in-character dialogue descrbing a spell from the LOK unvierse point of view as he gains it is not canon for some reason?

Ret-conning something in my sense is changing something previously to something diffrent, like in Marvel the previous unvierse was ret-conned when it became a multiverse, same with pre-retcon beyonder, he was changed, thus....the materia have obviously been changed.

Show me...if I cant, its your job to show me...

Originally posted by Burning thought
But they are unique to him in the game, the player cannot interchange the item with another character, there isnt even another PC anyway, their unique to each character through storyline, Kain himself says he gains the spell, thus it can be used. Kain did gain the spell, he says so in the story...
Kain only says it if the PLAYER gets it, the PLOT or STORY doesn't require it, nor does the PLAYER, its OPTIONAL.

If he has it in the story, then who has he used it on in the story? No one? K.



Kain describes the optional spell he acquired doesn't make it canon.

Please comprehend this, its not that difficult, i'm sure even a 10 year old can understand this:

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.



No it doesn't just because you hear a 500 chained up people go "please help me kind sir" does that mean when Kain was going through the events of BO, there were coincidently 500 chained up humans everywhere coincidently saying the exact same things?

No, voice isn't everything. Voice is just the style they used over text.


Thats what i've been saying lol, Dante has his shotgun in like every single game thats probably why, but people do use simply gameplay moves in debates, like some people use Sephiroths supernova.

But the PLAYER doesn't ALWAYS GET THAT SPELL, its OPTIONAL, duh if you get it itll say the same dialogue, but people don't always get Spirit Death when beating the game.. but theres no way of beating a game without going through the cinematic therefore everything in the cinematic is canon and happened, you keep repeating yourself, yet i've explained it to you over and over again, so either show me evidence that he has it, or stop repeating yourself, i've already told you, a voice describing the spell, whether it be kain or someone else does not amke any difference the fact is, its OPTIONAL, so theres no way of telling if it was actually acquired in the canon plot.


Evidence is showing me that Kain actually acquired the optional spell in the canon plot, have you given me any evidence? No, and don't bother replying "Well he says something when the Player acquires it, so that makes it canon!!" No it doesn't, because the player doesn't always get it, hence its optional.



Uhh said you've given me no proof on the subject matter we've been discussing, not this irrelevent crap.


My evidence of what? What are you replying to?


Proof has been shown to it being pretty ideffective? Why? Because he used it against Cloud while refusing to use any of his powers for 10 minutes? The fact is, he has power over the negative lifestream, which means he can do basically anything he wants.


Kain doesn't always have that description speech going through the game, its OPTIONAL , understand that, nothing says he actually acquired the optional spell in the canon plot, description or no description, him not having it, not being able to use it, never hearing about it, ever again for the next 4 sequals means something.


No, but even if he did, it wouldn't make Kotr canon, because its optional the only way to tell if he actually obtained it in the canon storyline is if he used it in the movie, or during a cinematic.

...??

You're looking at this in terms of STORY, Pyron has NO STORY in LOK, just as Sephiroth has no story in Marvel, so don't give me that "oo the psychic will beable to see him coming in so many prior years!"

Use your imagination, thats basically what this entire vs. forum is about, if Pyron were to appear there right now, he can annihilate everything including EG.


Optional voice is just optional voice. Doesn't make the optional thing canon because there are plenty of people who play the game without getting the optional item/spell the voice is just the same as text, it doesn't make it a cinematic cutscene.


His body is moves, be in denial all you want, but its blantaly obvious, if it was any other person i'd probably crack up, but i'm already used to you by now after all, you're BT, and the character is Kain.

Lol Kain moves faster then Loz, yeah ok.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ok prove this, you keep harping on about proof, prove its the same thing, ime looking for somethnig like
Cloud: Firega materia, created by the power of hte lifestream etc etc

What are you talking about? Theres voice instead of text because thats what it is, use your common sense.

If there was text that described what knights of the round did, it wouldn't make KoTR canon, because the spell is optional, therefore theres no way of telling if Cloud actually breeded a bunch of chocobos into a golden one to go gain KoTR materia.


Same with spells.


Vorador has spells, therefore other vampires can learn spells.



The reason is, in most RPG's there are Cutscenes and there are Text

In BO, there are Cutscenes and there are Voice

Instead of Cloud using his voice they have Cloud in text, instead of Kain in text, they have Kain using his voice

Therefore by using logic, Voice is = to Text.


No its just as good as text is.

ROFL they don't just SUDDENLY change everything and its changed one day, they give explanations to what it really is, for example:

Beyonder: everyone believed he was an omnipotent being from another multiverse

Then he got retconned: People found out the secrets about beyonder, he was not actually an omnipotent being like he led everyone to once believe he was, but rather he was an incomplete cosmic cube, that had vast psionic powers.

THAT is what being retconned is, you don't just have Meteor and Holy materia, summons materia one day, then the next day materia is all of the sudden "just blasts" rofl.


I could only find dynamite and fire3 in crap quality
the first 2 spells

1lnCkUzUMEc

Originally posted by Terryc250
Kain only says it if the PLAYER gets it, the PLOT or STORY doesn't require it, nor does the PLAYER, its OPTIONAL.

If he has it in the story, then who has he used it on in the story? No one? K.



Kain describes the optional spell he acquired doesn't make it canon.

Please comprehend this, its not that difficult, i'm sure even a 10 year old can understand this:

Player1: Plays beats BO, 3 times every single time he only got some of the optional spells

Player2: Got most of the optional spells

Does that make Player2's story canon? No, neither of them could be, player1's could be, no one will ever know, optional spells aren't guaranteed to be actually part of the plot, Cloud might've got Knights of the Round, he might have got master summon, he might have not got any of them, we'll never know

Unless the optional things are proven to have gotten obtained in the actual plot, we cannot assume it has been, but all we know for sure is Spirit Death was never heard of or spoken about,, or used in any of the sequals or used in the entire plot, so that has to mean something.



No it doesn't just because you hear a 500 chained up people go "please help me kind sir" does that mean when Kain was going through the events of BO, there were coincidently 500 chained up humans everywhere coincidently saying the exact same things?

No, voice isn't everything. Voice is just the style they used over text.


Thats what i've been saying lol, Dante has his shotgun in like every single game thats probably why, but people do use simply gameplay moves in debates, like some people use Sephiroths supernova.

But the PLAYER doesn't ALWAYS GET THAT SPELL, its OPTIONAL, duh if you get it itll say the same dialogue, but people don't always get Spirit Death when beating the game.. but theres no way of beating a game without going through the cinematic therefore everything in the cinematic is canon and happened, you keep repeating yourself, yet i've explained it to you over and over again, so either show me evidence that he has it, or stop repeating yourself, i've already told you, a voice describing the spell, whether it be kain or someone else does not amke any difference the fact is, its OPTIONAL, so theres no way of telling if it was actually acquired in the canon plot.


Evidence is showing me that Kain actually acquired the optional spell in the canon plot, have you given me any evidence? No, and don't bother replying "Well he says something when the Player acquires it, so that makes it canon!!" No it doesn't, because the player doesn't always get it, hence its optional.



Uhh said you've given me no proof on the subject matter we've been discussing, not this irrelevent crap.


My evidence of what? What are you replying to?


Proof has been shown to it being pretty ideffective? Why? Because he used it against Cloud while refusing to use any of his powers for 10 minutes? The fact is, he has power over the negative lifestream, which means he can do basically anything he wants.


Kain doesn't always have that description speech going through the game, its OPTIONAL , understand that, nothing says he actually acquired the optional spell in the canon plot, description or no description, him not having it, not being able to use it, never hearing about it, ever again for the next 4 sequals means something.


No, but even if he did, it wouldn't make Kotr canon, because its optional the only way to tell if he actually obtained it in the canon storyline is if he used it in the movie, or during a cinematic.

...??

You're looking at this in terms of STORY, Pyron has NO STORY in LOK, just as Sephiroth has no story in Marvel, so don't give me that "oo the psychic will beable to see him coming in so many prior years!"

Use your imagination, thats basically what this entire vs. forum is about, if Pyron were to appear there right now, he can annihilate everything including EG.


Optional voice is just optional voice. Doesn't make the optional thing canon because there are plenty of people who play the game without getting the optional item/spell the voice is just the same as text, it doesn't make it a cinematic cutscene.


His body is moves, be in denial all you want, but its blantaly obvious, if it was any other person i'd probably crack up, but i'm already used to you by now after all, you're BT, and the character is Kain.

Lol Kain moves faster then Loz, yeah ok.

Optional for the player but obviously Kain gets it in the canon because he has canon in-universe script.

No but if there was in-unvierse script like Cloud saying "kotr a powerful spell of ages past which was created by A wizard and B wizard in the FF storyline", then it would make it canon because he is mentioning it in story, now your telling me theres not even any text? you see this is where your argument falls, ill put a little *** three stars where this can answer an argument elseware in the post.

Kain describing it from the in-universe point of view does make it canon.

Theres no difficulty in understanding waht your saying, its just all rubbish because if PLayer C gained every optional spell his story is more canon, because then hes seen access to all the things Kain says in-unvierse in the story.

Cloud may have got them but A: their interchangable items that mean nothing in the long run especially since they have no in-universe text, also ***

Spirit death was spoken about as ive shown...

Thats obvious gameplay, since as soon as they start saying the same things it makes it obvious, Kain is the main character, what he says is relevent. Those people did not cease to excist however.

You cannot use completly gameplay moves if they are excistant in story or text especially when the effect is compltetly gameplay like the Heartless angel/Sin harvest variety. Explain how him having shotgun in most of his games makes it canon? the developers unlike LOK developers simply chose to keep the weapon, this is not a canon/storyline notificiation at all...

What the player does is irrelvent, obvously the players who dont get the splell are playing a less canon game by the end of it your determining canon now by gauging what players do.....the text and spells are all there, the dialogue kain says in-unvierse character are still there either way, they excist in the script. Youve already told me a lot of things without evidence Terry, ive already told you that Kains dialogue being in-unvierse character dialogue makes it imediatley canon, yet you still flail your arms about shouting "zomg optional but the shotgun is canon in dmc even tho it is optional too!!!" or one of my faverites "a completly irrellvent materia like KOTR not described anywhere in-charactr by characters is a good comparison!!". fail...fail and again fail.

It being optional means nothing, once again your failing by gauging canon by what the Player chooses to do, Kain is not controlled in the canon by omnipotent beings who tap keys on their pad to make him move...using what a player does is nonsense and gameplay, which is hwy you fail in Kain debates due to your enormous bias against him anyway, Kain has it in his script plain and simple.

***

Evidence? youve shown me no evidence so obviously all your claims...


According to your assumption of what the Negative lifestream is, not to mention that its not really done anything but flew down from the sky "zomg! omniversal power at Sephiroths fingertips!!"....

ofc he would be able to see him, Pyron needs no story because as soon as he is according to you going to appear in Nosgoth, he is imeidatley going to be part of the future timestream, in normal terms he would simply be deleted but lets for arguments say he is not, mobeius would know and could easily stop the guy.

How do you plan on his annhilating the EG? and if he appeared right there, right now and wasnt deleted, then were taking away the LOK unvierse statistics, why dont we just say the Nosgoth unvierse also imediatley lose all their powers and Pyron becomes universe sized....

plenty of people? as I said before....your gauging by players...fail

Ime already used to you Terry, your Terry afterall, Kain must lose and youll deny even your own evidence to try and hold on to the last straws of your dieing arguments before vanishing.

Originally posted by Terryc250
What are you talking about? Theres voice instead of text because thats what it is, use your common sense.

If there was text that described what knights of the round did, it wouldn't make KoTR canon, because the spell is optional, therefore theres no way of telling if Cloud actually breeded a bunch of chocobos into a golden one to go gain KoTR materia.


Same with spells.


Vorador has spells, therefore other vampires can learn spells.



The reason is, in most RPG's there are Cutscenes and there are Text

In BO, there are Cutscenes and there are Voice

Instead of Cloud using his voice they have Cloud in text, instead of Kain in text, they have Kain using his voice

Therefore by using logic, Voice is = to Text.


No its just as good as text is.

ROFL they don't just SUDDENLY change everything and its changed one day, they give explanations to what it really is, for example:

Beyonder: everyone believed he was an omnipotent being from another multiverse

Then he got retconned: People found out the secrets about beyonder, he was not actually an omnipotent being like he led everyone to once believe he was, but rather he was an incomplete cosmic cube, that had vast psionic powers.

THAT is what being retconned is, you don't just have Meteor and Holy materia, summons materia one day, then the next day materia is all of the sudden "just blasts" rofl.


I could only find dynamite and fire3 in crap quality
the first 2 spells

1lnCkUzUMEc

***

what? show me Kain interchanging one of his spells controlled by the player to another character?

yeh, Vorador can learn them, most beings in fiction can "learn" other peoples abiliteis but their not interchangable by the character or shown in the game so thats the main argument here

Show me Cloud with an in-universe description of a materia your calling uncanon then...ive asked for this before but ill prob not get it....lol, you dont like giving proof.

Well it obviously is because AC is a newer version of FF universe and so they are probably one of the first tiems yu see so many materia actually used canonically, when do you see Fireaga or otherwise used canonically? this is one of the first times and almost eveyr materia was a blast out of about 10...

That does not look like whats upon the roof, they blasted out of their arms, they didnt even do any magic inscriptions in the air like those people do, lets assume your right, youve described to me about 5 out of 10, how can the other 5 be al blasts even if the rest are fire spells, and this would be a massive conindicende that every materia, all 10 between them turn out to be all fire spells.....

Originally posted by Burning thought
Optional for the player but obviously Kain gets it in the canon because he has canon in-universe script.

No but if there was in-unvierse script like Cloud saying "kotr a powerful spell of ages past which was created by A wizard and B wizard in the FF storyline", then it would make it canon because he is mentioning it in story, now your telling me theres not even any text? you see this is where your argument falls, ill put a little *** three stars where this can answer an argument elseware in the post.
.. Dude, he gives a description of it, it has NOTHING to do with the STORY, now stop repeating yourself because this is about the 50th time i've said it

If it was similar to that saying "this materia was created by so and so" then it can possibly be canon, however if it was an optional materia and when you get it Cloud goes "A nice spell, good thing Sephiroth didn't get it" it still doesn't make it canon, because of the fact that it was only OPTIONAL.


No, nothing says that the canon story, the actual canon plot obtained every single item/spell/magic in the game, in the FF7 story, Cloud never obtained every single optional item/materia.



Spirit death has no PLOT dialogue, was never in the plot, is an optional spell, no evidence that Kain obtained it in the canon plot, and thats the bottom line, you don't have to repeat yourself unless you can show me evidence of Kain actually having the optional spell in the story.


And Kain just automatically gives descriptions to any spell he acquires, that could be just "gameplay" as well, just as the voices automatically talking when you go near them.


Spirit Death is a completely gameplay move as well.

Like i said before, none of the optional things are certain to have been obtained in the actualy story, however the fact that the item keeps appearing throughout the sequals suggests that Dante really has a shotgun.


So about 95% of FF7 players games are uncanon? And only the people who spent countless hours going through and obtaining every single item in the game has a more canon game? In the actual story Cloud doesn't get all the items/weapons/materia, thats the thing you don't understand not every single optional item was obtained in the actual plot.

You're obviously just frustrated now that i see you're rambling on about nonsense and just constently repeating yourself, so either show me evidence that Kain gained it in the actual canon plot, or concede.

Being optional means its not guaranteed the character went and got the optional spell/item in the actual canon storyline.

If something suggests that the character did, then you can say it, but if everything points to the character not having it, then thats that.


..What did i claim?


I don't assume anything, i tell facts.


Again your doing things from a story point of view. Ignore all that nonsense, and have Pyron in Nosgoth, he would annihilate it.


Annihilate him by taking out the planet duh, dude stop trying to make excuses, Pyron ISN'T going to go into Nosgoth, just as Sephiroth isn't going to the Marvel universe, we're looking it as an IF, use your common sense please.

"If" makes everything possible, If Pyron is on Nosgoth he'd take out everything, no don't give me any story crap like "zoMG No one can touch nosgoth because it didn't happen so it cannot happen!!!"


Your gauging by yourself, just because you got the spell doesn't make it canon.


Kain will lose to more powerful superior characters with actual feats, sorry but Kain has little to no feats.

You can deny all my evidence, and just repeat yourself even though i've smashed your argument, you'll just be as much in denial as you deny to see that Kains body is moving LOL.

Originally posted by Burning thought
***

what? show me Kain interchanging one of his spells controlled by the player to another character?
You don't have any other characters to "interchange" your spells with, but other vampires can learn spells, thats a fact.


As long as they went and got the spell, sure.


Well most materia is uncanon duh, theres no way of telling which of the optional materia Cloud really got in the plot storyline, unless it re-appeared in AC.


I dont know what you're replying to here, it would be helpful if you would quote the parts you're replying to instead of just writing paragraphs expecting me to know what you're replying to.


Because its gameplay duh, all it showed in AC was an explosion, there were lots of "explosion" materia in FF7 game, again i've said before there are like millions of materia on the planet, and players haven't seen even a portion of them all, it could most likely been a materias that was never in the game, like bahamut sin was never in any of the games.

Originally posted by Terryc250
.. Dude, he gives a description of it, it has NOTHING to do with the STORY, now stop repeating yourself because this is about the 50th time i've said it

If it was similar to that saying "this materia was created by so and so" then it can possibly be canon, however if it was an optional materia and when you get it Cloud goes "A nice spell, good thing Sephiroth didn't get it" it still doesn't make it canon, because of the fact that it was only OPTIONAL.


No, nothing says that the canon story, the actual canon plot obtained every single item/spell/magic in the game, in the FF7 story, Cloud never obtained every single optional item/materia.



Spirit death has no PLOT dialogue, was never in the plot, is an optional spell, no evidence that Kain obtained it in the canon plot, and thats the bottom line, you don't have to repeat yourself unless you can show me evidence of Kain actually having the optional spell in the story.


And Kain just automatically gives descriptions to any spell he acquires, that could be just "gameplay" as well, just as the voices automatically talking when you go near them.


Spirit Death is a completely gameplay move as well.

Like i said before, none of the optional things are certain to have been obtained in the actualy story, however the fact that the item keeps appearing throughout the sequals suggests that Dante really has a shotgun.


So about 95% of FF7 players games are uncanon? And only the people who spent countless hours going through and obtaining every single item in the game has a more canon game? In the actual story Cloud doesn't get all the items/weapons/materia, thats the thing you don't understand not every single optional item was obtained in the actual plot.

You're obviously just frustrated now that i see you're rambling on about nonsense and just constently repeating yourself, so either show me evidence that Kain gained it in the actual canon plot, or concede.

Being optional means its not guaranteed the character went and got the optional spell/item in the actual canon storyline.

If something suggests that the character did, then you can say it, but if everything points to the character not having it, then thats that.


..What did i claim?


I don't assume anything, i tell facts.


Again your doing things from a story point of view. Ignore all that nonsense, and have Pyron in Nosgoth, he would annihilate it.


Annihilate him by taking out the planet duh, dude stop trying to make excuses, Pyron ISN'T going to go into Nosgoth, just as Sephiroth isn't going to the Marvel universe, we're looking it as an IF, use your common sense please.

"If" makes everything possible, If Pyron is on Nosgoth he'd take out everything, no don't give me any story crap like "zoMG No one can touch nosgoth because it didn't happen so it cannot happen!!!"


Your gauging by yourself, just because you got the spell doesn't make it canon.


Kain will lose to more powerful superior characters with actual feats, sorry but Kain has little to no feats.

You can deny all my evidence, and just repeat yourself even though i've smashed your argument, you'll just be as much in denial as you deny to see that Kains body is moving LOL.

The optional part is a player decision, that means its irrelvent, this is about the 51st time ive had to say it but your just not got any understanding.

No if it was optional and Cloud said "this materia was created etc etc" then his speech is what makes it canon, the player NOT getting the spell would be less canon because then those words which would be in Clouds word script would not be said, thing is, Materia has no such thing, Kains spells do.

No because none of them are made part of the canon by a speech like Kains.

The evidence is Kain saying it, the guy is making it part of it as soon as he said, I think from now on ill just quote this because your not actually making points, your simply denying everything now "sigh" typical....just concede...** is the reapt ill prob have to do.

It cant because thats the main character talking it, he only says it once and its in the main characters script. **

**


Nothing suggests that, it just suggests the developers like the weapon in the game, simple, it doesnt make any canon notification full stop....

no the FF7 players are canon because their items like materia dont have the in-universe text....so their compeltly uncanon. No not in FF, because most of the items are nothing to do with the universe canon, materia as a whole is, but each one is obviously a gameplay element.

** you concede, youve got no argument, no proof for your claims, just denying, the only proof i need is the Kains speech for each spell making it part of the unvierse, wheres your counter proof? none...so just concede.

nothing points to him not having it....everything so far such as ** points to him having it.

That kains spells are not canon due to them being optional, you also claim that him saying something is not canon, their your claims.

you cant prove any of these "so called facts"

This is not from a story point of view, if he just randomly without question and without Nosgoth being allowed to fortell it even though they have the power then Pyron would defeat Nosgoth, infact most universes main planets in that situation, however he could only defeat Nosgoth if you can prove he would do so without a soul?

No you dont understand, the planet itself is an immutable timeline, taking away that is like taing away the characters powers, ime not saying "it never happend", you are obviously confused, Sephiroth never fought Kain, but what ime saying is, Nosgoth is an immutable timeline, Marvel and most other unvierses are not.

And I can say exactley same to you, you will be in denile, problem? youve not got any facts or proof at all, ive already shown you mine, youve got no counter proof, youve simply got denile, its like me saying Sephiroth is actually a normal human but not giving any proof, then telling the opponent in the debate he is failing the debate because he is not able to debate against nothing since youve got nothing.....

my proof is the only proof on the table atm, Kain has far more power than you obviously want him to have, hell this debate in question is about you hoping to dear God you can somehow make anyone belive your unproven nonsense about him not having all his uber spells that make most characters weep.

Originally posted by Terryc250
You don't have any other characters to "interchange" your spells with, but other vampires can learn spells, thats a fact.


As long as they went and got the spell, sure.


Well most materia is uncanon duh, theres no way of telling which of the optional materia Cloud really got in the plot storyline, unless it re-appeared in AC.


I dont know what you're replying to here, it would be helpful if you would quote the parts you're replying to instead of just writing paragraphs expecting me to know what you're replying to.


Because its gameplay duh, all it showed in AC was an explosion, there were lots of "explosion" materia in FF7 game, again i've said before there are like millions of materia on the planet, and players haven't seen even a portion of them all, it could most likely been a materias that was never in the game, like bahamut sin was never in any of the games.

They can, but as you said the player does not control anything here, thus gameplay is not a question, thus its unique to those characters because the player is doing nothing...

Which most of which did not.....so your using Materia that is already proven uncanon and completly shown to be unlike Kains spells, so you cannot even show me what ime asking for...youve got no argument again.

yet you cannot actually prove it, wheras my evidence of them having 10 materia all the same is my evidence, I see, so you concede this point and so FF is obviously mostly retconned into blasts of materia, apart from those proven canon AFTER AC

Originally posted by Burning thought
The optional part is a player decision, that means its irrelvent, this is about the 51st time ive had to say it but your just not got any understanding.

Optional means its possible that Kain never obtained it in the plot canon, just as Cloud and co might not have gotten KOTR, so unless you have evidence that Kain actually obtained it, stop saying nonsense.


No it wouldn't, if Cloud said for every single materia "this materia is good for my health!" obtained the black materia in canon "This materia is one of the most destructive materia" went and got KOTR optional matera and said "This materia sure is awesome!" it wouldn't make the optional KOTR materia canon, describing the materia does NOT make it canon


Description of the spell does not make it canon. Optional things are not guaranteed to have been obtained in canon, unless there was something that suggests it was, or evidence that it is, or used in the plot, but for Spirit Death everything suggests that it was NOT obtained.


No, Kain describes every item he gains, the bottom line is its optional, and just because you played it and obtained spirit death, doesn't mean the actual canon plot obtained it, unless it was suggested or there was evidence that he obtained it. For example Bahamut Sin was an optional spell, we couldn't have said Cloud got it in the canon plot until it was proven he did, but it showed in AC that he DID obtain it, another example, many people fight Sephiroth using the optional Ultima Weapon, Clouds final most powerful Weapon, however in AC in the flashback it showed Cloud fighting Sephiroth with the Buster Sword.


Its optional, thats the bottom line, him having a description for it makes no difference as any other optional item having dialogue for it.




Like i've stated above, even if there was an ingame description for every optional materia, it wouldn't make them canon, because of the fact that they're optional.

The only thing that would prove its canon is if they used the optional item in the story, or had things suggested that the actual character obtained it.


Uh i've stated facts, you've just been repeating nonsense that i've already destroyed,

Bottom line is, the spell is optional, nothing suggests that he actually obtained the spell in the plot story, the fact that Kain has never used it in the story, went unheard of for the next 4 games suggests that he didn't obtain it, so sorry, but you're wrong, and no no don't reply saying "zomg kain has a description!!!" that doesn't matter like i've said it doesn't change the fact that its optional.


How about the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the story? Or how about that it was never even mentioned again? In the rest of the entire LOK series, i guarantee even if 5 more LOK games come out Kain won't ever soul rip anyone with a simple spell.


No i'm stating facts, being optional means what it says, "optional" meaning theres a choice to have it, or not have it, theres a chance Kain has it, and theres a chance Kain doesn't have it, however; nothing suggests that Kain has it.


Uhh, everything i've stated about the lifestream is infact, FACT.

If you've played the game you would know what the lifestream is, if you've read any of the guides you'd know what the lifestream is.



Who's going to "soul rip" him, and what Soul ripping feats does this person have? None? Then Pyron karate chops the planet.


Yeah thats if you go by the story, however if Pyron were to appear there and now, he would demolish everything, we all know no character is part of any timeline in a different universe unless the developers did a collaberation.

However if the developers of DS and LOK did a collaberation, Pyron was on Nosgoth, he would destroy everyone.


No you've just been repeating yourself, stating that same "Kain has a description!" argument that i've already smashed, listen and read, ill smash it again
Kain giving a description makes no difference, Hell, if Cloud gave a description for all his optional materia would that make ever materia canon? No. The bottom line is, its optional. Unless its been proven or suggested that Cloud actually went and got the optional item in the storyline plot, theres no guarantee that he did.



As long as the vampire goes and obtains the spell he can use it, as long as the human goes and obtains the materia, he can use it.


Listen and read, open your eyes a little bit wider maybe: Even if Cloud had a description for every materia, it would NOT make it guarantee'd to have been obtained in the actual plot, because the bottom line is, its optional thus that means theres a chance he did NOT obtain it.


Wow this really has got to be one of the more stupid things you have said on this forum, first the Kain owning LT, then Kain being faster then Loz, Kain owning every DS, and now FF7 materia being "retconned" into just blasts rofl, i'm really tempted just to quote all the hilarious things you say and just profile them.

Alright Burning Thought, materia has been "retconned" into just blasts, we'll just ignore the fact that:

1) Summon materia was even used in the AC movie
2) Different types of materia was in DoC
3) There was no explaination Meteor and Holy really were, if they were not materia.
4) There's like millions of materia yet to be seen but i guess they're just "blasts"

And all the FF7 guides must be April Fools joke right?

Originally posted by Terryc250
1.Optional means its possible that Kain never obtained it in the plot canon, just as Cloud and co might not have gotten KOTR, so unless you have evidence that Kain actually obtained it, stop saying nonsense.


No it wouldn't, if Cloud said for every single materia "this materia is good for my health!" obtained the black materia in canon "This materia is one of the most destructive materia" went and got KOTR optional matera and said "This materia sure is awesome!" it wouldn't make the optional KOTR materia canon, describing the materia does NOT make it canon


2. Description of the spell does not make it canon. Optional things are not guaranteed to have been obtained in canon, unless there was something that suggests it was, or evidence that it is, or used in the plot, but for Spirit Death everything suggests that it was NOT obtained.


3. No, Kain describes every item he gains, the bottom line is its optional, and just because you played it and obtained spirit death, doesn't mean the actual canon plot obtained it, unless it was suggested or there was evidence that he obtained it. For example Bahamut Sin was an optional spell, we couldn't have said Cloud got it in the canon plot until it was proven he did, but it showed in AC that he DID obtain it, another example, many people fight Sephiroth using the optional Ultima Weapon, Clouds final most powerful Weapon, however in AC in the flashback it showed Cloud fighting Sephiroth with the Buster Sword.


Its optional, thats the bottom line, him having a description for it makes no difference as any other optional item having dialogue for it.




4. Like i've stated above, even if there was an ingame description for every optional materia, it wouldn't make them canon, because of the fact that they're optional.

The only thing that would prove its canon is if they used the optional item in the story, or had things suggested that the actual character obtained it.


5. Uh i've stated facts, you've just been repeating nonsense that i've already destroyed,

Bottom line is, the spell is optional, nothing suggests that he actually obtained the spell in the plot story, the fact that Kain has never used it in the story, went unheard of for the next 4 games suggests that he didn't obtain it, so sorry, but you're wrong, and no no don't reply saying "zomg kain has a description!!!" that doesn't matter like i've said it doesn't change the fact that its optional.


6. How about the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the story? Or how about that it was never even mentioned again? In the rest of the entire LOK series, i guarantee even if 5 more LOK games come out Kain won't ever soul rip anyone with a simple spell.


7. No i'm stating facts, being optional means what it says, "optional" meaning theres a choice to have it, or not have it, theres a chance Kain has it, and theres a chance Kain doesn't have it, however; nothing suggests that Kain has it.


8.Uhh, everything i've stated about the lifestream is infact, FACT.

If you've played the game you would know what the lifestream is, if you've read any of the guides you'd know what the lifestream is.





1. It would if Kain the main charatcter did not actually already say hes got the spell himself, in-universe, thus players who do not choose to gain the spell, are choosing not to see Kains in-universe dialogue which is part of the lore, unlike the players decision, thus the lore beats your argument since its based around player decisions which ofc are not canon.

Unless you have any proof stop saying such nonsense, especially using the old Materia examples, youve already shown me you cannot show half of the things ive asked for because they dont excist for materia.

Saying "this materia is good for my Health" is nothing like Cloud, he would be too emo to say somethng like that so dont be ridiculous, if he was saying that imeidaltey its nothing to do with the games story and ALL of your mockery rubbish texts dont point to the storyline, Kain mentioning the Necromancer in his in-universe character DOES and thus makes it canon, however if Cloud said for each materia something like "The KoTr materia created by Wizard A 100 years ago by using the lifestream etc etc" or if someone else said it from the party more likely to speak (cloud being a sad silent pointless character overall) then it would be canon because they descriped its story. NO materia have this however, so their terrible evidence for just about anything for LOK, ill make a **** so I dont repeat myself.

2. ****

3. He does speak of every spell, thus every spell is canon, and stop the saddity of using Materia, its getting old and their nonthing alike ****

4. Its nothing to do with options, the option to take the spell is a player choice therefore non canon, its what surrounds the item in question, i.e Kains canon speech in-universe that makes it canon, not some player thinking whether or not he wants it, FF Materia would all be canon if they had a description of their excistence witin the universe itself for each one. **** also can answer this.

5. oh really? youve stated facts? well so have I then, ive stated the FACT all spells are canon, does that make it fact? no, proof does, which you dont have, you have zero evidence Terry, your statements do not defeat my statements with proof just because your stating something. You obviously have a superiroty complex regarding this since you belive your statements are all facts which is nonsense.

6. I guarantee if another game came out he would likely do far far more impressive tihngs noe he is an infnite magic guardian, thing is, all of this part of your argument is useless becayse your guarantees nor mine mean little without proof

7. Facts? their not facts, their your own opinion on the situation, you dont seem to know what a fact is, a fact is something undeniable, like Kain is a vampire, thats a fact, however youve got simply opinions without argumetns, my argument is that it being optional is irrelvent since its a player decision which are also irrelvent in canon, yet his voice for each spell is relevent and canon since their in-universe lore.

8. yes IF, but I have not, if you had played the LOK series through one or twice, you would know Kains spells are canon and how he is as powerful as I claim as does my proof.

Originally posted by Terryc250
9. Who's going to "soul rip" him, and what Soul ripping feats does this person have? None? Then Pyron karate chops the planet.


Yeah thats if you go by the story, however if Pyron were to appear there and now, he would demolish everything, we all know no character is part of any timeline in a different universe unless the developers did a collaberation.

However if the developers of DS and LOK did a collaberation, Pyron was on Nosgoth, he would destroy everyone.


10. No you've just been repeating yourself, stating that same "Kain has a description!" argument that i've already smashed, listen and read, ill smash it again
Kain giving a description makes no difference, Hell, if Cloud gave a description for all his optional materia would that make ever materia canon? No. The bottom line is, its optional. Unless its been proven or suggested that Cloud actually went and got the optional item in the storyline plot, theres no guarantee that he did.



11. As long as the vampire goes and obtains the spell he can use it, as long as the human goes and obtains the materia, he can use it.


12. Listen and read, open your eyes a little bit wider maybe: Even if Cloud had a description for every materia, it would NOT make it guarantee'd to have been obtained in the actual plot, because the bottom line is, its optional thus that means theres a chance he did NOT obtain it.


13. Wow this really has got to be one of the more stupid things you have said on this forum, first the Kain owning LT, then Kain being faster then Loz, Kain owning every DS, and now FF7 materia being "retconned" into just blasts rofl, i'm really tempted just to quote all the hilarious things you say and just profile them.

Alright Burning Thought, materia has been "retconned" into just blasts, we'll just ignore the fact that:

1) Summon materia was even used in the AC movie
2) Different types of materia was in DoC
3) There was no explaination Meteor and Holy really were, if they were not materia.
4) There's like millions of materia yet to be seen but i guess they're just "blasts"

And all the FF7 guides must be April Fools joke right?

9. Mortanious who in the storyline rips a soul from the underworld itself and planeted it in a body, infact Mortainious, the heavens knows how many soul stealers and Raziel, Kain all have soul powers, and thats if the big lump isnt frozen by a time spell, and thats simply argueing from the view that he does suddenly appear in a ridiculous fashion, otherwise he would be elminated by other means.

If we go by the statistics of Nosgoth he would be elmianted by time immutability, something few universes have.

No he wouldnt because Nosgoth still has immutable timeline, unless the developers made Pyron part of the canon timeline and he was always supposed to excist in the timeline.
IUn which case Moebius and Azimoth would annilate him before his time comes to pass.

WHy dont you just say if Nosgoth had its time immutability taken away and randomy without any notification to the timeline which many beings can see appeared right inside the core of nosgoth then Pyron would destroy Nosgoth!!, thats basically what your saying, I could say the same with most FF universes, unforatley most of them wouldnt even have a chance against Pyron even if given Prep.

10. **** and all false, after a combination of failing arguments about materia not even in the same area as Spells in LOK, you fail even more by claiming that a players decision determines canon now? what nonsense. infact this can be useful ill use ** for it

11. So show me the proof of the vampire who actually does this?

12. Now your just getting tired, irriitated and because youve got no arguments you need to somehow prolong this nonsense, **** and **

13. If i were to quote yours Terry my profile would stretch a users browser several pages over for you....yet another bait...no argument.

1) so we see theres a single summonable, excellent

2) Dont know what DoC is, does it show canon materia and is also after AC?

3) rephrase this please, it doesnt look like English

4) Probable, thing is these millions not seen are irrelvent, you cant base your argument around something nobody has seen....well actually YOU prob would...but thats why you fail at these debates.

FF7 guides? i thot FF7 was before AC (I know it was) so what about the guides?

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. It would if Kain the main charatcter did not actually already say hes got the spell himself, in-universe, thus players who do not choose to gain the spell, are choosing not to see Kains in-universe dialogue which is part of the lore, unlike the players decision, thus the lore beats your argument since its based around player decisions which ofc are not canon.
Kain only says it if the player chooses to get the optional spell, it doesn't change the fact that its "optional" again you're just repeated yourself, the same arguement i've already smashed.

Its a matter of actual PROOF or evidence whether kain went and obtained the spell in the plot storyline or not.

Having a description dialogue for it still makes it moot, think about it this way, IF Cloud were to have a description for all the optional materia in the game, would it mean Cloud actually obtained all of them in the plot? No it wouldn't.

The bottom line still remains that the spell/item/materia/weapon is optional so unless there was something that suggests Kain actually went and obtained the optional spell, the "optional" factor still remains.


What have i stated about materia that i didn't have proof or evidence for?



I said "Even IF" Cloud said it, it wouldn't make a difference. He said its worthy of the necromancer, it never described the origin of the spell, or that it had anything to do with the plot storyline, it basically just described it saying that its worthy of the necromancer, if he said "With this spell, i can defeat so-and-so" THEN it would be canon, however; normally with a dialogue like that, the spell would be mandatory thus making it actually canon.

Nromally if there was a huge dialogue describing the origin and going into details about the spells, it wouldn't just be an "optional" spell, it would be a storyline spell.

Kain describing the spell just like any other optional spell makes it just that, nothing to do with the story.



He gives a description of the spell, doesn't change the fact that its optional, and theres no proof that he actually attained it in the plot.

Everything has to do with options, theres the choice the player makes, and theres the choice the actual canon Kain makes, we don't know what choices the actual canon Kain made we can only assume, but everything leads to Kain not actually acquiring that optional spell.

Of course having a description can mean it exists, but it doesn't mean that Cloud actually got it in the plot canon story.


Fact is, optional means its not 100% guarantee'd to be obtained. Fact is, Kain never used the spell in the entire plot story. Fact is, Kain has never soul ripped anyone. Fact is, the spell was never spoke about, and was unheard of again in the next 4 sequals, everything points to Kain not having the optional spell in the actual LOK Plot.

Those are facts you cannot deny.

Now lets hear your "facts" that Kain obtained it.

Hopefully he does, because so far he's done nothing impressive.



Fact is, optional means its not 100% guarantee'd to be obtained. Fact is, Kain never used the spell in the entire plot story. Fact is, Kain has never soul ripped anyone. Fact is, the spell was never spoke about, and was unheard of again in the next 4 sequals, everything points to Kain not having the optional spell in the actual LOK Plot.


Thing is, there is proof and evidence of the lifestream. I ask for proof about Kain and evidence, but i get none.

Originally posted by Burning thought
9. Mortanious who in the storyline rips a soul from the underworld itself and planeted it in a body, infact Mortainious, the heavens knows how many soul stealers and Raziel, Kain all have soul powers, and thats if the big lump isnt frozen by a time spell, and thats simply argueing from the view that he does suddenly appear in a ridiculous fashion, otherwise he would be elminated by other means.
But has Mortanious literally ripped out a soul from a perfectly healthy living being? Raziel steals souls after the victim basically is about to die.

Actually give me a scenario and a name of who Kain/Raziel literally ripped a soul out of a physically healthy being.


Think about it, say its Sephiroth vs Spiderman, there is no such thing as Sephiroth being in the Marvel timeline either, nor is it possible unless the developers did a collaberation, we're using our imaginations here: If Pyron is there right now, ignore everything else, he'd destroy Nosgoth, what can Moebius and Azimoth do to Pyron? "Soul rip" him? But have they ever Soul ripped anyone of Pyrons calibre before? Have they ever even Soul Ripped anyone before? Can they react faster then then the speed of light?


Because no one cares about the story, or timeline of Nosgoth,, "If Pyron is there and now" you can't say "Nope he can't because that didn't happen!" Obviously it didn't happen, we're using our imaginations here.


Materia magic and Spell magic are in the same "area" both are obtained for it to work, humans can obtain materia and use it, vampires can obtain the spell and use it.

Players decision does doesn't determine its canon, but the option "to go and get the spell, or to not go and get the spell" means its possible that in the canon storyline, it was NOT gotten. So unless you have evidence that it was gotten, then you can't say that he did get it, like i said earlier, everything suggests that he didn't get it.


Kain does it, how did Kain get spells? He went and obtained it.
Vorador has spells, most likely he went and obtained it as well.


I dont even know what *** means, your the one whos obviously getting "tired" here if your going to type nonsense like that, oh BT, ****** and *** k? ***. rofl.


Alright go ahead and do it, actually quote me on the ridiculous things i've said, i'll actually quote you with the things you've said, and lets see who gets more laughs shall we?


Which already just by that blows your "materia is just blasts" theory out the window.


Dirge of Cerberus, its a game that takes place a couple years after the events of AC, yes it does have canon materia.


Maybe to someone who lacks intelligence.

I'll break it down for you so that even a 10 year old can understand it

You said materia is just blasts right?

If its just blasts, then what was Holy and Meteor? They were stated as the black materia and the white materia, but if they're just "blasts" then how can it be a Meteor? And how can Holy be a big wave of Energy? So then going by that logic the game was incorrect if it said it was "materia" because "materia" is just "blasts".


Uhh we've never seen Bahamut Sin, or even knew it existed until it was shown in AC, the materia Loz and Yazoo used on the roof very well could've been materia we've never seen before as well.

Common sense BT, common sense.


... AC is part of FF7, DoC is part of FF7, Crisis Core is part of FF7, Before Crisis is part of FF7.

Guides for FF7 (like Reunion Files, Ultimania Omega, Compilation) have no timeline, they're simply guides of the FF7 compilation, giving info about the FF7 world and characters.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But has Mortanious literally ripped out a soul from a perfectly healthy living being? Raziel steals souls after the victim basically is about to die.

Actually give me a scenario and a name of who Kain/Raziel literally ripped a soul out of a physically healthy being.


2. Think about it, say its Sephiroth vs Spiderman, there is no such thing as Sephiroth being in the Marvel timeline either, nor is it possible unless the developers did a collaberation, we're using our imaginations here: If Pyron is there right now, ignore everything else, he'd destroy Nosgoth, what can Moebius and Azimoth do to Pyron? "Soul rip" him? But have they ever Soul ripped anyone of Pyrons calibre before? Have they ever even Soul Ripped anyone before? Can they react faster then then the speed of light?


3. Because no one cares about the story, or timeline of Nosgoth,, "If Pyron is there and now" you can't say "Nope he can't because that didn't happen!" Obviously it didn't happen, we're using our imaginations here.


4. Materia magic and Spell magic are in the same "area" both are obtained for it to work, humans can obtain materia and use it, vampires can obtain the spell and use it.

5. Players decision does doesn't determine its canon, but the option "to go and get the spell, or to not go and get the spell" means its possible that in the canon storyline, it was NOT gotten. So unless you have evidence that it was gotten, then you can't say that he did get it, like i said earlier, everything suggests that he didn't get it.


6. Kain does it, how did Kain get spells? He went and obtained it.
Vorador has spells, most likely he went and obtained it as well.


7. I dont even know what *** means, your the one whos obviously getting "tired" here if your going to type nonsense like that, oh BT, ****** and *** k? ***. rofl.


8. Alright go ahead and do it, actually quote me on the ridiculous things i've said, i'll actually quote you with the things you've said, and lets see who gets more laughs shall we?

9.


a: Which already just by that blows your "materia is just blasts" theory out the window.


b. Dirge of Cerberus, its a game that takes place a couple years after the events of AC, yes it does have canon materia.


c. Maybe to someone who lacks intelligence.

I'll break it down for you so that even a 10 year old can understand it

You said materia is just blasts right?

If its just blasts, then what was Holy and Meteor? They were stated as the black materia and the white materia, but if they're just "blasts" then how can it be a Meteor? And how can Holy be a big wave of Energy? So then going by that logic the game was incorrect if it said it was "materia" because "materia" is just "blasts".


d. Uhh we've never seen Bahamut Sin, or even knew it existed until it was shown in AC, the materia Loz and Yazoo used on the roof very well could've been materia we've never seen before as well.

Common sense BT, common sense.


... AC is part of FF7, DoC is part of FF7, Crisis Core is part of FF7, Before Crisis is part of FF7.

Guides for FF7 (like Reunion Files, Ultimania Omega, Compilation) have no timeline, they're simply guides of the FF7 compilation, giving info about the FF7 world and characters.

1. But their not dead yet are they?

afaik no storyline character has done it but my memory is limited, can you give any base to them being healthy makes any diffrence? no....didnt think so either...its irrelvent either way.

2.
NO but thats fine because A: Marvels timeline is not immutable and B: it doesnt have the samne rules as Nosgoth, you woud have to literally say in the thread "nosgoth timeline is not immutable" for anyone other than LOK to survive the timeline, i think your getting confused about what immutable timelines are.

pyrons calibre? hes shown no calibre against Soul ripping so his size and strength is moot, unless you can prove size and strength mean something towards resistance to having your soul reaved? probably not...his "bigzor godzor!" hype is still floating around I see. Pyron cannot go zero to lightspeed in a split second. Especially not at full sized.


3. Your confused Terry, Nosgoth unlike most unvierses is immutable timelined, putting him in will get him destroyed by the force shown in-game as an object that destroys beings/objects that are not part of the timeline, its part of the LOK nosgoth planet.

4. ****

5.
No you see its not, read *** again, players decisions irrelvent, Kains words in-universe are, the fact their optional means nothing, unless you can base this on something?

6.
no i asked you to show me in the storyline or gameplay Vorador or any other going to claim the spell/object and using it, thus making it non unique to Kain, the interchangable player controlled options are what makes Materia most uncanon as well but their uncanon anyway.

7. Now you see this is where I know your not reading any of my posts, thats prob why ime having to repeat myself because your not reading any of it, if you had read it you would understand those stars ime using to answer your posts, as ime doing in this one with answers already given. **** for example was the point I made earlier, or do I need to hold your hand to make you understand indexing? how sad....

8.
Ive already told you its impossible, ill be quoting entire threads thus you would automatically win because its possible to quote perhaps a couple of things. unless ime allowed to simply post the entire threads, but this is pointless since I dont make fallacies unlike you, you seem to need other people to help you along lol which in the long run only shows weakness and they dont usually help to boot.

9.

a: no, it just proves theres one materia that isnt a blast...

b:

c. well maybe, fortunatley I dont so obviously you must have just goofed, either way when are they stated to be Materia after AC? hell perhaps their just like point A, they now have thier proof, what about the rest of the materia?

d. common sense? its common sense ot me that Kain saying he has the spell in-universe means he has the spell regardless of players choices, it prob is to most people who dont use gameplay, unfortunatley you do..fill in the gaps.


Sure their guides for the FF7, problem is now obviously they have been outdated and are showing uncaon relevences on Materia since AC which is after it shows just blasts unfortatley.

Originally posted by Terryc250
1. Kain only says it if the player chooses to get the optional spell, it doesn't change the fact that its "optional" again you're just repeated yourself, the same arguement i've already smashed.

Its a matter of actual PROOF or evidence whether kain went and obtained the spell in the plot storyline or not.

2. Having a description dialogue for it still makes it moot, think about it this way, IF Cloud were to have a description for all the optional materia in the game, would it mean Cloud actually obtained all of them in the plot? No it wouldn't.

3. The bottom line still remains that the spell/item/materia/weapon is optional so unless there was something that suggests Kain actually went and obtained the optional spell, the "optional" factor still remains.


4. What have i stated about materia that i didn't have proof or evidence for?



5. I said "Even IF" Cloud said it, it wouldn't make a difference. He said its worthy of the necromancer, it never described the origin of the spell, or that it had anything to do with the plot storyline, it basically just described it saying that its worthy of the necromancer, if he said "With this spell, i can defeat so-and-so" THEN it would be canon, however; normally with a dialogue like that, the spell would be mandatory thus making it actually canon.

Nromally if there was a huge dialogue describing the origin and going into details about the spells, it wouldn't just be an "optional" spell, it would be a storyline spell.

Kain describing the spell just like any other optional spell makes it just that, nothing to do with the story.



6. He gives a description of the spell, doesn't change the fact that its optional, and theres no proof that he actually attained it in the plot.

7. Everything has to do with options, theres the choice the player makes, and theres the choice the actual canon Kain makes, we don't know what choices the actual canon Kain made we can only assume, but everything leads to Kain not actually acquiring that optional spell.

Of course having a description can mean it exists, but it doesn't mean that Cloud actually got it in the plot canon story.


8. Fact is, optional means its not 100% guarantee'd to be obtained. Fact is, Kain never used the spell in the entire plot story. Fact is, Kain has never soul ripped anyone. Fact is, the spell was never spoke about, and was unheard of again in the next 4 sequals, everything points to Kain not having the optional spell in the actual LOK Plot.

Those are facts you cannot deny.

Now lets hear your "facts" that Kain obtained it.

Hopefully he does, because so far he's done nothing impressive.


Thing is, there is proof and evidence of the lifestream. I ask for proof about Kain and evidence, but i get none.

1. Youve smashed nothing, since you have no proof or basis for claiming things, thus you automatically lose.

for the rest of this point ****

2. IF Cloud had a dialoge like the one I described where he doesnt describe gameplay, but describes the spelll as if it was part of the unvierse like Kain does then all of them would be canon, yet they are not.

3. Once again, Ime going to have to tell you why you fail since you cannt counter claim with evidence either so ime wasting my time but ive got time to waste, your talking about player decisions which are irrelvent to the story, canon and most of all anything at all, its kains words that make it canon whether or not the player bothers to get the spell and see them...this point will be known as ***

4. You keep stating that materia are like spells as ive already shown and as youve shown with your lack of comparable proof (i.e their interchangable AND have no speech from the characters) their nothing alike.

5. yes, the Necromancer is part of the story, full stop, the whole speech of the text is about the games universe, thats not a gameplay text, simple, *** may aslo help you and so would ****

6. he makes an in-unvierse speech on it, ****

7. And the choice the player makes is what your using, wheras Kain has already got in-universe speech for those spells thus making them canon, whether the player chooses to get them or not, or waste all his energy using the light spell in an already bright area is irrelvent, this is all part of your weak arguments you usually have based around gameplay, read **** and *** also

8. ofc heres the rub, all of these "facts" are gameplay things your speaking of, wheras the single time Kain speaks of the spell and gaining it shows he has the spell, your delusions of them not appering because he losses it or never had it mean nothing since nothing proves he doesnt have it, him not using it could simply be developer decisions or such, since weve alread ygot the canon speech however, he has the spell.

his facts are in him speaking of it, as I said before, Kain>>>>Terry or player decisions.

9. Ive given you it, you simply deny it randomy even though you have no counter proof, so you imediatley fail there unfortatley for you, you lost this debate pages back. either way if there is proof and evidence of what the Negative lfiestream actually does and if Sephiroth can use it to this extent please provide?...prob not....

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. But their not dead yet are they?
afaik no storyline character has done it but my memory is limited, can you give any base to them being healthy makes any diffrence? no....didnt think so either...its irrelvent either way.
They basically are dead, he has to weaken them so that their body is weak before Raziel can pluck out the soul, it makes a huge difference, do you really think Raziel can beat Pyron til he's at the brink of death?


Dude, Marvels timeline IS immutable to ANY non-Marvel character, its IMPOSSIBLE for any non-Marvel character to alter a Marvel timeline thats common sense / logic , the only way its possible for a non-marvel character to alter a marvel timeline, is if the developers did a collaberation

Again, we're using our imaginations here, it has nothing to do with timelines.


And Kain has shown that he has not soul ripped anyone in the entire LOK story.

Besides the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the entire story, what makes you think he can soul rip someone who is galaxies distance beaming at the planet at ftl?


Every universe's timeline is immutable to any character that doesn't exist in that universe, common sense, how can a character that doesn't exist alter a timeline?

It's called using your imagination.


***


**** means nothing to me, thats just nonsense, to me it means you concede.

The fact that its optional means everything, means that it could've been gotten or it could've NOT been gotten, having dialogue doesn't change that fact.


Go look at the beginning intro of BO1, he's using spells, that right there proves that vampires are capable of learning spells.

Materia IS canon, but the reason why we don't know which is canon to the plot is NOT because they're interchangeable, its because a lot of them are OPTIONAL

Meaning we don't know which materia Cloud/Party actually obtains in the canon plot.


No you're repeating shit i've already replied to, and you reply to it by repeating the same "Kain descibes it!!" when i've told you it doesn't change the fact that its optional already.

anyone can type ***, or *****, thats jibberish, its not debating its youo conceding because you don't know what to say.


Actually I don't state things without reason, i don't go "Sephiroth will WIN!" without any knowledge about his opponent, unlike you who goes "KAIN WINS BY TK AND STABBING HIMTHROUGH THE HEAD!!!"

Posts like that are ridiculous.

And whats funny is you always try to bait me in almost every thread you post in, trying to ridicule me, i'll be reading random threads not even posting and i'll hear "Terry this" and "Terry that" from you, which is quite funny because i can easily bring up all the hilarious ridiculous things you've said since you've been a member here.


So then what is Holy? What is Meteor? What is Vincents proto-type materia? What about the giant materias?


Meteor and Holy happened before AC, i've already taught you what retconned means, it cannot just simply change from being summons to being "blasts" overnight without explanation, there needs to be a story behind it.


If theres its a spell thats optional, then it means it could've been obtained or it could not of been obtained, thats what optional means, you only get dialogue IF its obtained, but wheres the proof that in the actual plot canon story, Kain actually went and got it? Everything points to him NOT getting it.


So then wheres the explanation on the whole retcon occurance? Why aren't they telling us the truth about Materia?

It makes ZERO sense for materia to be "retconned into blasts" just because there were materia you didn't know in AC, hell we didn't know wtf Bahamut Sin was until they told us in the script what it was, Bahamut Sin was not a FF7 summon that was obtainable, the materia on the roof perhaps wasn't as well, or perhaps they were just a mixture of explosive materia like Fire3, Dynamite, flame thrower, etc, or similar magic

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Youve smashed nothing, since you have no proof or basis for claiming things, thus you automatically lose.
Umm no.. I've already explained to you, Kain having dialogue description for an optional spell doesn't change the fact that its optional.


Actually there is dialogue in a few materia that is non-canon to the story, they're optional materia called "Master Magic, Master Summon, Master Command" the master materia's, it gives the player every single materia, but this was never obtained in the actual PLOT storyline, and there is infact Dialogue, first there is Dialogue for getting the Earth Harp, then after you give the Earth Harp to some old guy he'll say "OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?" "I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em" "How about it?" Then Cloud trades it with him and gets the Master Materia.


No its the fact that its possible to NOT obtain it, if the player doesn't have to obtain it, kain doesn't have to obtain it, having dialogue for it makes no difference, everything suggests that Kain did NOT obtain it.


What does interchangeable have anything to do with anything? Materia IS canon, the optionals are all a MAYBE, because of the fact that Cloud/Co may not of obtained it, or mightve obtained it, same thing with Kains spells, theyre optional, he mightve obtained it, or he might not of.


He used the necromancer as part of the spells description, does it change the fact that its optional? No.

Its still optional, *******


What does having a description have anything to do with it? You really think theres going to be silence if Kain obtains something like that? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional, and theres no evidence that canon story kain actually acquired it. Like i said everything points ot him not obtaining it.


What are you talking about? Kain never soul ripping anyone in the entire LOK Story is STORYLINE, not gameplay. Kain gaining that optional spell IS GAMEPLAY rofl. I think you're confused BT.

Kain giving a description of it is only if he obtains it, doesnt change the fact that its optional and he might not have obtained it, again the developers aren't going to put in a spell with silence in the game, of course theres a description for every spell, but the spell is still optional and theres still a question if he obtained it in the canon story or not, again i've showed you an example of materia having dialogue for it, yet it was never obtained in the actual canon story.



Umm, you haven't given me proof? You've just been repeating the "Kain gives a description" which i've been telling you does not change the fact that its optional, yet you just keep repeating "KAin has a desription!!!" ok cool, it doesn't change the fact that its still optional, which means it couldve been gotten or it could not have been gotten.

The negative lifestream is just the lifestream with j-cells, thus under Sephiroth influence.

The lifestream by FACT, is the source of life,energy,power,magic

In AC, Sephiroth created the SHM Spirit bodies out of the Negative lifestream, thus giving them life, the SHM (who have a bit of control over it being sephiroths remnants) used the negative lifestream used the negative lifestream as magic in AC, having j-cells in it does not mean it loses its power.

Originally posted by Terryc250
They basically are dead, he has to weaken them so that their body is weak before Raziel can pluck out the soul, it makes a huge difference, do you really think Raziel can beat Pyron til he's at the brink of death?


Dude, Marvels timeline IS immutable to ANY non-Marvel character, its IMPOSSIBLE for any non-Marvel character to alter a Marvel timeline thats common sense / logic , the only way its possible for a non-marvel character to alter a marvel timeline, is if the developers did a collaberation

Again, we're using our imaginations here, it has nothing to do with timelines.


And Kain has shown that he has not soul ripped anyone in the entire LOK story.

Besides the fact that he's never soul ripped anyone in the entire story, what makes you think he can soul rip someone who is galaxies distance beaming at the planet at ftl?


Every universe's timeline is immutable to any character that doesn't exist in that universe, common sense, how can a character that doesn't exist alter a timeline?

It's called using your imagination.


***


**** means nothing to me, thats just nonsense, to me it means you concede.

The fact that its optional means everything, means that it could've been gotten or it could've NOT been gotten, having dialogue doesn't change that fact.


Go look at the beginning intro of BO1, he's using spells, that right there proves that vampires are capable of learning spells.

Materia IS canon, but the reason why we don't know which is canon to the plot is NOT because they're interchangeable, its because a lot of them are OPTIONAL

Meaning we don't know which materia Cloud/Party actually obtains in the canon plot.


No you're repeating shit i've already replied to, and you reply to it by repeating the same "Kain descibes it!!" when i've told you it doesn't change the fact that its optional already.

anyone can type ***, or *****, thats jibberish, its not debating its youo conceding because you don't know what to say.


Actually I don't state things without reason, i don't go "Sephiroth will WIN!" without any knowledge about his opponent, unlike you who goes "KAIN WINS BY TK AND STABBING HIMTHROUGH THE HEAD!!!"

Posts like that are ridiculous.

And whats funny is you always try to bait me in almost every thread you post in, trying to ridicule me, i'll be reading random threads not even posting and i'll hear "Terry this" and "Terry that" from you, which is quite funny because i can easily bring up all the hilarious ridiculous things you've said since you've been a member here.


So then what is Holy? What is Meteor? What is Vincents proto-type materia? What about the giant materias?


Meteor and Holy happened before AC, i've already taught you what retconned means, it cannot just simply change from being summons to being "blasts" overnight without explanation, there needs to be a story behind it.


If theres its a spell thats optional, then it means it could've been obtained or it could not of been obtained, thats what optional means, you only get dialogue IF its obtained, but wheres the proof that in the actual plot canon story, Kain actually went and got it? Everything points to him NOT getting it.


So then wheres the explanation on the whole retcon occurance? Why aren't they telling us the truth about Materia?

It makes ZERO sense for materia to be "retconned into blasts" just because there were materia you didn't know in AC, hell we didn't know wtf Bahamut Sin was until they told us in the script what it was, Bahamut Sin was not a FF7 summon that was obtainable, the materia on the roof perhaps wasn't as well, or perhaps they were just a mixture of explosive materia like Fire3, Dynamite, flame thrower, etc, or similar magic

But their not dead, they have just as less resistance to having their souls ripped out as when their alive, its not like Raziel is breaking defences, his sword goes straight through them anyway to take the soul or he just rips it out with his hand....your talking gameplay again.

No but heres what you dont understand, Nosgoths timeline is within itself Immutable, no one in Nosgoth can change the timeline, Marvels timeline is not immutable..., this point will be known as $

W8 a min, first your not the thread starter, how far tehy start away from eachother is not under your control, who says he is galaxies away?

***? you dont have any recorded points under that....

No it means ive made a point earlier that covers this point, read my posts, anyone with half a mind could realise ime using those to copy points....

Having Kains dialogue means everything, the optional part means nothing because thats a player decision which is not canon, how can you not understand this?

yeh he can use spells, i asked for proof he went and got them the same way as Kain or that their the same as kains spells....also ime talming about optional player used in-game stuff, like materia is chosen by players to use on other characters

Its nothing to do with them being optional, unique means the character gains them because their part of their unique abilities, since their not unique, you cannot use materia...

Youve told me? wow damn, my debates lost becauyse you disagree? ...youve got no evidence, ime simply retelling you my opinion, only mine actually has kain speaking and your using player decisions to prop your falling argument.

Easily because theres not many, I dont even need to refer to a post, all of yours are silly half the time, everyone who actually reads your posts knows your a massive gameplay reader and hugely bias to Sephiroth.

I dont know what they are Terry, hopefully the game tells you later?

No, half of the materia are uncanon anyway, thus those already shown as canon are canon, if Meteor is a materia fine, but all the usual ones are all blasts as shown in AC which shows what materia really are.

Nothing poits to him not getting it apart from gameplay decisions from players...thats your canon? ....no, kains speech tells us he gains it if the player chooses something its irrelvent.

"perhaps perhaps" well perhaps their all retconned as it shows, all your guessing is useless, if it tells us its Sin bahumaht as weak as it is then thats proof....

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm no.. I've already explained to you, Kain having dialogue description for an optional spell doesn't change the fact that its optional.


Actually there is dialogue in a few materia that is non-canon to the story, they're optional materia called "Master Magic, Master Summon, Master Command" the master materia's, it gives the player every single materia, but this was never obtained in the actual PLOT storyline, and there is infact Dialogue, first there is Dialogue for getting the Earth Harp, then after you give the Earth Harp to some old guy he'll say "OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?" "I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em" "How about it?" Then Cloud trades it with him and gets the Master Materia.


No its the fact that its possible to NOT obtain it, if the player doesn't have to obtain it, kain doesn't have to obtain it, having dialogue for it makes no difference, everything suggests that Kain did NOT obtain it.


What does interchangeable have anything to do with anything? Materia IS canon, the optionals are all a MAYBE, because of the fact that Cloud/Co may not of obtained it, or mightve obtained it, same thing with Kains spells, theyre optional, he mightve obtained it, or he might not of.


He used the necromancer as part of the spells description, does it change the fact that its optional? No.

Its still optional, *******


What does having a description have anything to do with it? You really think theres going to be silence if Kain obtains something like that? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional, and theres no evidence that canon story kain actually acquired it. Like i said everything points ot him not obtaining it.


What are you talking about? Kain never soul ripping anyone in the entire LOK Story is STORYLINE, not gameplay. Kain gaining that optional spell IS GAMEPLAY rofl. I think you're confused BT.

Kain giving a description of it is only if he obtains it, doesnt change the fact that its optional and he might not have obtained it, again the developers aren't going to put in a spell with silence in the game, of course theres a description for every spell, but the spell is still optional and theres still a question if he obtained it in the canon story or not, again i've showed you an example of materia having dialogue for it, yet it was never obtained in the actual canon story.



Umm, you haven't given me proof? You've just been repeating the "Kain gives a description" which i've been telling you does not change the fact that its optional, yet you just keep repeating "KAin has a desription!!!" ok cool, it doesn't change the fact that its still optional, which means it couldve been gotten or it could not have been gotten.

The negative lifestream is just the lifestream with j-cells, thus under Sephiroth influence.

The lifestream by FACT, is the source of life,energy,power,magic

In AC, Sephiroth created the SHM Spirit bodies out of the Negative lifestream, thus giving them life, the SHM (who have a bit of control over it being sephiroths remnants) used the negative lifestream used the negative lifestream as magic in AC, having j-cells in it does not mean it loses its power.

And ive explained the opposite, only ime correct unless your saying a players decision determines canon?

No ime talking about in-unvierse plot for the materia like Kain gives for the spells, metioning other beings in the universe or how they were made in the games universe are likely canon reasons, some old man who is not the main character giving you items is not proof...


player decision, your using gameplay AND player decisions...how sad..

No kains spelsl are definite, he tells us he gains them...Kain>>your assumptions and materia insecurities.

you dont have any points under *******

although I have under **** so ill use this.

Kain gaining it is not gameplay, since his voice imediatley turns it into canon, your getting confused of whats gameplay and what is not.

Show me the lifestream fact and show me Sephiroth can control all its powers...

Originally posted by Burning thought
But their not dead, they have just as less resistance to having their souls ripped out as when their alive, its not like Raziel is breaking defences, his sword goes straight through them anyway to take the soul or he just rips it out with his hand....your talking gameplay again.

The body is connected to the soul, if the body is is dead, the soul must leave the body, going by logic, if the body is on the brink of death and weakened, the soul should be easier to extract.

Plus the fact that Raziel cannot do that ingame, and plus the fact that raziel has never ripped a perfectly healthy humans soul.

It works the same way as how Kain has to injure his opponents before he can suck their blood.


If not, he flies galaxies away, you really think anyone in nosgoth is fast enough to catch him? What is Kain going to do teleport infront of him? He'll get crushed.


Wel I don't know what "recorded points" you have for your meaningless stars either, its probably just some repeated junk i've already replied to anyway, and so if you aren't going to reply properly, i'll take it as a concession, thanx.


I've replied to all your repeated crap already, to me, your ***'s = a concession.


The fact that its optional is canon.

Having dialogue means nothing, like i've showed you, there are optional crap in FF7 with dialogue, does that make it 100% guaranteed to be in the plot story? No

Because the bottom line still remains, you only get that dialogue IF its chosen, which means its not 100% guaranteed that it will be chosen, theres still an "IF"


.. Is there even any other way of getting spells? You go to a place, and obtain the spells, isn't that how spells are obtained?

Materia IS canon though, which of the optional ones are gotten in the actual canon plot are a question, just like which of the optional spells are actually got in the actual plot BO storyline.


And Clouds Ultima Weapon is unique to him as well, it doesn't mean it was actually obtained in the canon story.

Spells are obtained, they're optional, nothing suggests that kain went and got spirit death, having dialogue means nothing, which i've already proven.


I've given you facts, you are just in denial.

You on the other hand can not give me ANY evidence that Kain has it, all you can say is "Kain has a description for it!!" which i've told you means nothing.


Im a hugely bias to Sephiroth? When have i ever said Sephiroth would beat someone out of his league? I'd say Sephiroth would beat people like Gouki, Ryu, Kain, and other people on those level.

But hell, you think Kain can beat ANYONE, when he has like ZERO feats.


So then until they explain everything, Materia hasn't been "retconned into blasts"


We don't know which ones are obtained in the actual story, we see a huge trunk full of materia, so obviously the part obtained quite a bit, but when i played FF7, i had like 100 different materia, some he could've gotten the same as me, some couldve been different.


Umm, him not ever using it in the story, him not having it in any of the 4 sequals, him never mentioning it or hearing anything about it, pretty much sums up that he doesn't have it.

actually the spell being optional is relevent.


and perhaps the entire planet was retconned into just midgar, the big globe is now just a flat city, because thats all we see in AC right?

Originally posted by Terryc250
The body is connected to the soul, if the body is is dead, the soul must leave the body, going by logic, if the body is on the brink of death and weakened, the soul should be easier to extract.

Plus the fact that Raziel cannot do that ingame, and plus the fact that raziel has never ripped a perfectly healthy humans soul.

It works the same way as how Kain has to injure his opponents before he can suck their blood.


If not, he flies galaxies away, you really think anyone in nosgoth is fast enough to catch him? What is Kain going to do teleport infront of him? He'll get crushed.


Wel I don't know what "recorded points" you have for your meaningless stars either, its probably just some repeated junk i've already replied to anyway, and so if you aren't going to reply properly, i'll take it as a concession, thanx.


I've replied to all your repeated crap already, to me, your ***'s = a concession.


The fact that its optional is canon.

Having dialogue means nothing, like i've showed you, there are optional crap in FF7 with dialogue, does that make it 100% guaranteed to be in the plot story? No

Because the bottom line still remains, you only get that dialogue IF its chosen, which means its not 100% guaranteed that it will be chosen, theres still an "IF"


.. Is there even any other way of getting spells? You go to a place, and obtain the spells, isn't that how spells are obtained?

Materia IS canon though, which of the optional ones are gotten in the actual canon plot are a question, just like which of the optional spells are actually got in the actual plot BO storyline.


And Clouds Ultima Weapon is unique to him as well, it doesn't mean it was actually obtained in the canon story.

Spells are obtained, they're optional, nothing suggests that kain went and got spirit death, having dialogue means nothing, which i've already proven.


I've given you facts, you are just in denial.

You on the other hand can not give me ANY evidence that Kain has it, all you can say is "Kain has a description for it!!" which i've told you means nothing.


Im a hugely bias to Sephiroth? When have i ever said Sephiroth would beat someone out of his league? I'd say Sephiroth would beat people like Gouki, Ryu, Kain, and other people on those level.

But hell, you think Kain can beat ANYONE, when he has like ZERO feats.


So then until they explain everything, Materia hasn't been "retconned into blasts"


We don't know which ones are obtained in the actual story, we see a huge trunk full of materia, so obviously the part obtained quite a bit, but when i played FF7, i had like 100 different materia, some he could've gotten the same as me, some couldve been different.


Umm, him not ever using it in the story, him not having it in any of the 4 sequals, him never mentioning it or hearing anything about it, pretty much sums up that he doesn't have it.

actually the spell being optional is relevent.


and perhaps the entire planet was retconned into just midgar, the big globe is now just a flat city, because thats all we see in AC right?

NOt logic at all since Raziels sword swallows the soul as soon as it goes "through" the being, this weakening logic of yours is on the same level as enemies surviving 5 hits from the reaver when their human....

No one has to catch him, he needs to build momentum to hit lightspeed, before then he could be riped, frozen in time, etc etc

Tehy are my reply, its better than simply repeating everything ive already said, so i may as well use stars because your not going to make any real counter points, since you have no counter proof yet.

What? lol, how is the fact its optional its canon? now your really slipping...the option is a players option, the player is not canon genius...

What have you shown me from FF7 that has in-unvierse dialogue? certainly not from the main character either.

yes youve told me, and ive told you the opposite, waht logic dictates a player option is canon to the storyline? its not at all, but kains speech which is Kain himself speaking regardless of the players decision is somehow uncanon? .....

Not anyone, and you dont need feats, you need capabilities, Kain has all those powers and spells thus he is capable of them ,thus he would perform 100% in a battle which puts him on a level far above Sephiroth, many people agree.

Well who knows, for Kain it is, in canon ime sure you dont pick up a floating little card in and learn a spell from it though in the in-universe canon.

is Clouds Ultima weapon mentioned as part of the story or universe?

The globe has evidence otherwise since the globe is part of it, but most of the materia are not shown as canon before AC shows the little blobs that shoot only blasts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And ive explained the opposite, only ime correct unless your saying a players decision determines canon?
If the player has the decision to go and obtain the spell or not to go and obtain the spell, Kain has the same decision as well, because well, you're playing as Kain correct?


Cloud rarely ever talks in the game, its all people talking to him, even obtaining canon materia, Cloud doesn't say anything, him gaining the master materia was no different then him going and obtaining the black materia, its just people talking to Cloud, the only difference is master materia is Optional while the black materia is not, and the black materia ties into the story which makes it canon

Master Materia is optional, which gives it a possibility that it was never obtained in the story, having dialogue means nothing.


Haha your really picking at strings here, If a player gets a decision, it means Kain gets a decision as well.

if its possible for a player to miss a spell, its possible for kain to miss a spell.


He only gives a description IF he gains them, and theres a POSSIBILITY that he DOESN'T gain them, hence the word, OPTIONAL, what part of that can't you understand?



If you can't reply properly, i'll take it as a concession, thank you.


You only get the description IF you get the spell, not everyone gets the spell, its possible for the player, and its possible for kain to NOT obtain the spell.


Even though there are some quotes in game i'm lazy to find them so i'll take some examples off the top of my head

Power: Lifestream disintegrating Meteor

Energy: Shinra using the lifestream as a source to give energy to Midgar powering everyones homes,etc

Life: Creating Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo.

Magic: Materia tapping into the lifestreams power for magic

We only see Sephiroth for 10 minutes in AC and we wasn't using any of his powers, but going by common sense:

Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo(who control a small amount of the lifestream) used it as magic summoning the shadow creeps, Sephiroth created the spirit bodies Kadaj,Loz,Lazoo out of the lifestream, with a gesture of his hand he was able to cover the skies of midgar and beyond, he is the new evolution of jenova, thus he has full control over J-cells and whatever it influences.

Originally posted by Burning thought
NOt logic at all since Raziels sword swallows the soul as soon as it goes "through" the being, this weakening logic of yours is on the same level as enemies surviving 5 hits from the reaver when their human....

Well if his sword rips through the flesh, then sure, but i don't believe Raziel can simply open up his scarf and suck souls from perfectly healthy beings.


Its not like he's going to start off slow as a turtle then work his way up, he's most likely atleast fast enough to get away, he is a cosmic being after all.


Uh the thing is, you haven't given me ANY proof, you've jjust been repeating the same arguement i've smashed, DIALOGUE means NOTHING as i've already shown you, its the fact that its optional.


Ok try to comprehend this, read slower, open your eyes a bit wider.

The Player plays as Kain, if the player has an option of whether to go and obtain an optional spell, Kain (the character) does to, hence the word "optional"

So unless you reply with evidence that Kain actually went and obtained the spell, don't come repeating yourself with arguements i've already countered.


What is "in-universe" dialogue? Like i've said the main character RARELY speaks, its always people talking to him,

Another example is, before you go fight Sephiroth, you can fly on the ship, if you go and fly back to another continent, and talk to some towns people they will talk about Meteor in the sky, does that mean Cloud actually went and flew back to the town on the other continent? Most likely not.

The bottom line is these are all optional.


Kain only speaks and gives a description IF he went and obtained the optional spell in the actual plot, having dialogue for it makes no difference.

Of course there will be dialogue for optional things as well, you think all optional things will be silent? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional.


So Kain has all these capabilities but he's never used them in the story? Riiight..

If he actually used them, then it would be a feat, but hes never soul ripped anyone, so that must mean something, plus that "capability" is an optional "capability" as well, so that must mean something too.


Well he obtains it somehow, maybe its a little manuel that teaches him how to do the spell.

Its apart of Ultimate WEAPON, the giant WEAPON that does get unleashed, in the canon story.


The "globe" evidence was in FF7, in AC everything was in midgar, so going by your logic the globe is retconned into just a city.

Originally posted by Terryc250
If the player has the decision to go and obtain the spell or not to go and obtain the spell, Kain has the same decision as well, because well, you're playing as Kain correct?


Cloud rarely ever talks in the game, its all people talking to him, even obtaining canon materia, Cloud doesn't say anything, him gaining the master materia was no different then him going and obtaining the black materia, its just people talking to Cloud, the only difference is master materia is Optional while the black materia is not, and the black materia ties into the story which makes it canon

Master Materia is optional, which gives it a possibility that it was never obtained in the story, having dialogue means nothing.


Haha your really picking at strings here, If a player gets a decision, it means Kain gets a decision as well.

if its possible for a player to miss a spell, its possible for kain to miss a spell.


He only gives a description IF he gains them, and theres a POSSIBILITY that he DOESN'T gain them, hence the word, OPTIONAL, what part of that can't you understand?



If you can't reply properly, i'll take it as a concession, thank you.


You only get the description IF you get the spell, not everyone gets the spell, its possible for the player, and its possible for kain to NOT obtain the spell.


Even though there are some quotes in game i'm lazy to find them so i'll take some examples off the top of my head

Power: Lifestream disintegrating Meteor

Energy: Shinra using the lifestream as a source to give energy to Midgar powering everyones homes,etc

Life: Creating Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo.

Magic: Materia tapping into the lifestreams power for magic

We only see Sephiroth for 10 minutes in AC and we wasn't using any of his powers, but going by common sense:

Kadaj,Loz,Yazoo(who control a small amount of the lifestream) used it as magic summoning the shadow creeps, Sephiroth created the spirit bodies Kadaj,Loz,Lazoo out of the lifestream, with a gesture of his hand he was able to cover the skies of midgar and beyond, he is the new evolution of jenova, thus he has full control over J-cells and whatever it influences.

yes were "playing" as kain, but in canon Kain is not played at all, its not Kains decision, its the players, thus irrelvent. The option means nothing, the words Kain has in-unvierse are.

But the Black materia by the sounds of it has canon speech for it or canon tie ins, materia does not, wheras Kains spells have Kain as the tie in when he speaks of them.

No it doesnt, its not Kains decision, its the players, the player is not the real kain, the Real kain wouldnt leave things untouched anyway so down to canon character personality, Kain would not realistically not gain a power/spell and it shows us he wouldnt becaue he has dialogue in-universe for it.

Not at all, the player to miss a spell? your saying now humans are just as intelligent and in the same league as beings they play as in fiction? what nonsense, Kain is his own being in the canon, player decisions mean nothing.

Ive taken all your posts as concession, simply repeating without any hard evidence is meaningless. especialy when your known for using gameplay and uncanon nonsense.

Its not possible for kain to miss a spell because he doesnt, he has his dialogue for gaining it, thus he gains it.

Not everyone gets the spell is irrelvent, thats a player decision, which is not canon or proportionate to the story, kain speaking is.

Yeh, if I get the spell i get teh description, so? so my actions mean something on the canon of LOK? nonsense, Kain speaks eithrer way, let me help you understand, if you take away all the irrelvent, uncanon nonsense your blundering about like gameplay such as Player options, all your left with is Kains dialogue which is in-universe canon.


All Sephiroth has shown is hes able to move the Neg lifestream, nothing indicates he can actually control its properties and everything that comes from it, nothing points to him being able to control its magic, its properties etc, this is one of those FF fanboy assumptions you see bouncing about forums now and then, its far less evidential than Scion Kain.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Well if his sword rips through the flesh, then sure, but i don't believe Raziel can simply open up his scarf and suck souls from perfectly healthy beings.


Its not like he's going to start off slow as a turtle then work his way up, he's most likely atleast fast enough to get away, he is a cosmic being after all.


Uh the thing is, you haven't given me ANY proof, you've jjust been repeating the same arguement i've smashed, DIALOGUE means NOTHING as i've already shown you, its the fact that its optional.


Ok try to comprehend this, read slower, open your eyes a bit wider.

The Player plays as Kain, if the player has an option of whether to go and obtain an optional spell, Kain (the character) does to, hence the word "optional"

So unless you reply with evidence that Kain actually went and obtained the spell, don't come repeating yourself with arguements i've already countered.


What is "in-universe" dialogue? Like i've said the main character RARELY speaks, its always people talking to him,

Another example is, before you go fight Sephiroth, you can fly on the ship, if you go and fly back to another continent, and talk to some towns people they will talk about Meteor in the sky, does that mean Cloud actually went and flew back to the town on the other continent? Most likely not.

The bottom line is these are all optional.


Kain only speaks and gives a description IF he went and obtained the optional spell in the actual plot, having dialogue for it makes no difference.

Of course there will be dialogue for optional things as well, you think all optional things will be silent? It still doesn't change the fact that its optional.


So Kain has all these capabilities but he's never used them in the story? Riiight..

If he actually used them, then it would be a feat, but hes never soul ripped anyone, so that must mean something, plus that "capability" is an optional "capability" as well, so that must mean something too.


Well he obtains it somehow, maybe its a little manuel that teaches him how to do the spell.

Its apart of Ultimate WEAPON, the giant WEAPON that does get unleashed, in the canon story.


The "globe" evidence was in FF7, in AC everything was in midgar, so going by your logic the globe is retconned into just a city.

hes a cosmic lump of energy, how does that help him? he does start of fairly slow, not as a tortoise but not lightspeed or anything close.

Ive shown you Kains speech, which is undeniably canon, the speech is from Kain himself in-universe, there is no way you could have smashed any of my arguments because A: youve got no counter evidence at all, simply your claims which mean nothing by themselves tbh and B. your claims are poor in general because your using gameplay and player decisions, neither of which actually affect canon.....

no, the player himself is not Kain himself, your only playing in the game as Kain ,but Kains option in the actual canon is obvious that he gains them because he has the speech for them, the option is the players alone who are not Kain either, your trying to basically say the Player is Kain himself now....

You mean my arguments using non-gameplay logic comapred to your gameplay whoring and baseless claims.

The dialogue makes all the diffrence because in the end the option itself is uncanon, the dialogue is....
the option is a players gameplay illusion of choice, in the canon Kain doesnt have choice because the script writers of LOk storyline have already made the story regardess of what the Player chooses, get your head round this.

Kain doesnt need to use them in teh story, half the time he is far beyond most beings anyway so he wouldnt waste it,it simply isnt worth doing just so a few goons in a debate can bring it up, LOK is not like comic books.

In-universe dialogue is speech spoken from the point of view of the LOK universe/characters, if Kain speaks of beings within the world, then he is speaking from a canon prespective, not a gameplay one, a gameplay dialogue would be "press A to cast B and cause 20 dmg"

Maybe but now your guessing, either way there is no lack of uniqueness for kain and his powers, the spells and items you gain from Materia are chosen by the player and are items overall making them non unique, so even if every Materia was proven canon, none of the characters could actually use them unless specified in a thread because their not unique basic equipment for that character.

yes but that doesnt make the Weapon the character gains canon, only if its canonically said it is a piece that Cloud gains then it would be.

No because canon previously has shown thats not what teh world is made of, wheras most Materia dont have any canon shown for them, thus its likely they have been retconned OR they were just given gameplay names to make them seem more interesting and their actually all in the real world little blasts.

Originally posted by Burning thought
yes were "playing" as kain, but in canon Kain is not played at all, its not Kains decision, its the players, thus irrelvent. The option means nothing, the words Kain has in-unvierse are.
If the player has a decision to go and obtain the spell, so does Kain. So unless there is real evidence Kain went and obtained the spell the answer is moot, however, everything suggests that he did not get it.


When getting "Knights of the Round" right before you obtain it, it says "Over the course of many years, Mako energy crystallizes into Materia.." right there talks about "Mako energy" an in-world issue in FF7, but does still that does not mean Knights of the Round


If the player has a choice to not gain a spell, so does Kain, its a possibility, if the player can finish the story without getting the spell, so can Kain.


Huh? I'm saying that if the player has a choice to go and obtain a spell, or just carry on with the story, so does Kain, nothing suggests that Kain actually went and obtain the spell, just because theres dialogue for it (which is obvious, nothing will have zero dialogue, after gaining a spell) it does not mean its 100% proof that Kain gains it in the actual canon plot.




Evidence of what? I've stated facts, you've just been repeating the same argument i've countered over and over again.

You have zero evidence of Kain actually obtaining the spell in the canon storyline.

If Kain has it, why can't he use it? Why hasn't he used it? Why has he never soul ripped anyone if he can do it?


Its optional dialogue theres lots of dialogue, for optional materia as well, the guy who has the master materia, talks about in-universe things like Ultimate WEAPON and Meteor. But the thing is all of that is optional, its optional dialogue, it does NOT mean it had to of happened and Cloud and party had to of talked to him.

There only dialogue IF the spell is obtained, optional dialogue


So if you DON'T get the spell, you DON'T get the description, its OPTIONAL, Kain having it is a big "MAYBE", IF he obtained it, he would say those things, if he DID NOT obtain it, he wouldn't say those things.

Get it?

If Cloud got Master Materia, there would be all that dialogue from that guy, if he didn't there WOULDN'T, if the player chose to go and obtain Master Materia, he'd get all the dialogue, but Cloud in canon, did not gain master materia, and he did NOT get all that dialogue.


Did you not read what i wrote? Loz, Kadaj, Yazoo used it as MAGIC, they're just remnants of Sephiroth, thats why they were able to use a BIT of its power, because they control a bit of the j-cells influences, Sephiroth IS Jenova, he control over it entirely, thats why he was able to cover beyond midgar with it, thats why he was able to create the spirit bodies in the first place, thats proof right there, whether you want to be in denial about it or not is your choice, but the fact still remains.

Originally posted by Burning thought
hes a cosmic lump of energy, how does that help him? he does start of fairly slow, not as a tortoise but not lightspeed or anything close.
That means hes a being from the cosmos, the entity he is, is able to cross galaxies, and live in space, he goes FASTER then lightspeed actually.


You showed be optional dialogue for an optional spell, means nothing. Its still optional BT, sorry.

The more you keep telling yourself that, it still won't change the fact that its optional, if you really want it to be apart of the storyline, go email the developers and beg them to remake BO1 with the spell being mandatory, and tell them to have Kain actually being able to soul rip someone, because he's never done it.


The player plays as Kain, if the player has an option to do something, so does Kain.

If its possible for the player to NOT obtain a spell, does that mean Kain MUST get the spell? No, it means Kain could possibly have not obtained the spell as well.


I've given you the facts numorous times, your just being in denial BT, no wonder no one wants to debate with you over Kain, you won't even accept actual facts unless its a positive for Kain.


How is the option uncanon? You're saying the player has more freedom as Kain himself? If the player can go through the game and not obtain the optional spells, Kain can as well, the optional spells are just a bonus for the player.. only the storyline spells are the ones Kain actually have, the rest are just "maybes".

I've showed you some examples already of optional dialogue, you're just really in denial.


Right, he'd rather make himself look like a fool like when he first encountered Moebius in defiance and got owned.

He'd rather waste his energy sword fighting people then simple "soul ripping" them.



Does that change the fact that its optional? No. its optional dialogue, theres lots of in-world optional dialogue in FF7, does that mean Cloud actually obtained Master Materia? Or KOTR? No.


Its a logical guess, it would make sense. KOTR is a unique materia, so are the master materia, the point we're debating about here is not whther its "unique" to a character or not, but whether the spell was actually obtained or not.


Even if Cloud did say "Yay i got the Ultima Weapon" it wouldn't mean Cloud 100% guarantee'd gets it in the actual plot, because its optional.


Huh?

It explains in the FF7 game what materia is, like 5x throughout the games, it even explains in the novels what materia is, it showed Meteor, Holy, it showed summons, it showed magic materias, command materias, ALL in canon.

The bottom line is, you're judging something just by seeing something in AC, you did not know what a few materia's were so you assume that materia has been retconned into blasts, which makes literally ZERO sense at all.

id like to counter the whole optional spell crap, but that's all im saying..

the fact that the spell is optional is irrelevant, thequote is still canon as the spell (as well as magic in general) is part of a vampires evolution..to prove this, vorador had learned spell in question, as well as most of the other spells kain learned and maintained his ability to use it for thousands of years..as players could not control vorador on BO1 or any LOK game, the spell could not have been optional for him and therefore the quote made by kain is completely canon..

Exactley Madmel, Tery does not seem to understand how the fact something is optional means its only optional for the player ,the canon aspect is Kains voice and in-unvierse description, basically that what both of your posts crash down to terry, your using gameplay over and over, ill answer the parts of your posts that are not simply re-runs of the "optional and playerz decided whats canon!" nonsense.



Originally posted by Terryc250



Did you not read what i wrote? Loz, Kadaj, Yazoo used it as MAGIC, they're just remnants of Sephiroth, thats why they were able to use a BIT of its power, because they control a bit of the j-cells influences, Sephiroth IS Jenova, he control over it entirely, thats why he was able to cover beyond midgar with it, thats why he was able to create the spirit bodies in the first place, thats proof right there, whether you want to be in denial about it or not is your choice, but the fact still remains.

proof? not at all, the remnants simply used a masively limited array of powers like shadow beings...that doesnt prove anything to the negative lifestream

All the Neg lifestream has shown is it can smother the area, other than that its not destroyed anything and Sephiroth hasnt used powers directly from the lifestream, besides the games have shown Materia is the only way to channel lifestream into powers...

Originally posted by Terryc250


I've given you the facts numorous times, your just being in denial BT, no wonder no one wants to debate with you over Kain, you won't even accept actual facts unless its a positive for Kain.


Right, he'd rather make himself look like a fool like when he first encountered Moebius in defiance and got owned.

He'd rather waste his energy sword fighting people then simple "soul ripping" them.


It explains in the FF7 game what materia is, like 5x throughout the games, it even explains in the novels what materia is, it showed Meteor, Holy, it showed summons, it showed magic materias, command materias, ALL in canon.

The bottom line is, you're judging something just by seeing something in AC, you did not know what a few materia's were so you assume that materia has been retconned into blasts, which makes literally ZERO sense at all.

No youve given me your opinions, ive given you facts on how optional nonsense by far and wide is player controlled and furthermore both are uncanon gmaeplay elements, thats a fact, you keep trying to use the opposite argument, only one of them can be fact, and imo its the one that claims Player decisions are canon thats false somehow...

He didnt make him look like anything, first the only being was Moebius so its not like his "street cred" is threatened and second he did not want to kill moebius so your statement here shows how much you know about LOK.

Waste his energy sword? wtf...

Yeh it explains what materia is, unfortunatley in AC its showed in canon that when its used you can only create blasts...

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Can despair embodied defeat Pyron? I care not what people say. In some cases, size does matter. most people say size doesnt matter, and your completely right. when the size difference is this big, it DOES matter. pyron owns.

Originally posted by k1Lla441
most people say size doesnt matter, and your completely right. when the size difference is this big, it DOES matter. pyron owns.

When you are talking about Pyron, size matters. Besides him, it doesn't.

Originally posted by MadMel
id like to counter the whole optional spell crap, but that's all im saying..

the fact that the spell is optional is irrelevant, thequote is still canon as the spell (as well as magic in general) is part of a vampires evolution..to prove this, vorador had learned spell in question, as well as most of the other spells kain learned and maintained his ability to use it for thousands of years..as players could not control vorador on BO1 or any LOK game, the spell could not have been optional for him and therefore the quote made by kain is completely canon..
I'm not saying all spells are non-canon, i'm saying which spells he actually learns in the storyline is questionable, Kain having a description for it, or it having dialogue is irrelevent, because its optional dialogue, just like how optional items in other games have dialogue for them, but theres still a big question if in the true plot storyline that optional item was gained by the character.

The fact remains that the spell was never used by Kain in the story, he's never soul ripped anyone, or even spoke of it in the next 4 sequals, which suggests something.


What? The shadow creeps are stated as "Summon" magic, theerefore they're using magic from the negative lifestream, theres proof of magic right there

The remnants are creations by Sephiroth, from the negative lifestream, theres proof of life right there

Materia simply TAPS INTO the lifestreams power for magic.


Its fact that if a player decides whether to obtain something or not, Kain the character has that choice as well, its totally logical.

You cannot deny this.


vRVbS8uc82Y
If Kain was oh so powerful with all his spells, that wouldn't have happened.


Waste his energy sword fighting people dur


Let me explain to you the different kinds of materia, theres Summon materia, that summons monsters

Theres Magic materia, that does "blasts" of different kinds of elements, or heals.

And theres command materia, which does things like help the player in different ways.

What we see in AC is summon materia, and magic materia.

Originally posted by Terryc250



What? The shadow creeps are stated as "Summon" magic, theerefore they're using magic from the negative lifestream, theres proof of magic right there

The remnants are creations by Sephiroth, from the negative lifestream, theres proof of life right there

Materia simply TAPS INTO the lifestreams power for magic.


Its fact that if a player decides whether to obtain something or not, Kain the character has that choice as well, its totally logical.

You cannot deny this.


vRVbS8uc82Y
If Kain was oh so powerful with all his spells, that wouldn't have happened.


Waste his energy sword fighting people dur


Let me explain to you the different kinds of materia, theres Summon materia, that summons monsters

Theres Magic materia, that does "blasts" of different kinds of elements, or heals.

And theres command materia, which does things like help the player in different ways.

What we see in AC is summon materia, and magic materia.

Its totally illogical because the Player simply isnt Kain, their "playing" as kain in the gameplay, but their not kain, their choices are not the same as Kains because they dont think the way as Kain either, i dont think I need to have this conversation since even you should realise that.

It would happen because A: most of his spells kill the opponent with a shot and he didnt want to kill Moebius anyway, ot to mention that orb on moebius staff is special, it harms both soul and heart.


yet out of 10 materia they are all exactley the same blast we see earlier only a bit larger?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its totally illogical because the Player simply isnt Kain, their "playing" as kain in the gameplay, but their not kain, their choices are not the same as Kains because they dont think the way as Kain either, i dont think I need to have this conversation since even you should realise that.

No its totally logical, if something is optional, it means it "optional" i've told you what optional means, Kain doesn't require his optional spells, nothing suggests that he actually acquired it in the storyline, everything points to the opposite.

Why wouldn't he want to kill his opponents with "a shot"? He's going to kill them by cutting/stabbing him, might as well save him the effort?

So then why didn't he simply just "repel" it off?



What are you talking about? We saw Bolt in the church, Bahamut Sin, and then some kind of fire element magic materia's on the roof.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No its totally logical, if something is optional, it means it "optional" i've told you what optional means, Kain doesn't require his optional spells, nothing suggests that he actually acquired it in the storyline, everything points to the opposite.

Why wouldn't he want to kill his opponents with "a shot"? He's going to kill them by cutting/stabbing him, might as well save him the effort?

So then why didn't he simply just "repel" it off?



What are you talking about? We saw Bolt in the church, Bahamut Sin, and then some kind of fire element magic materia's on the roof.

if somethinhg is optionl to the plauer whos actions and decisions are irrelvent to kain, false, since nothing points to him not gaining them, however him saying he actually gains them points he does, try taking away the player decisions (since their not canon) and youll be left with Kains dialogue which ofc is.

He can kill his opponents with one slash, so one shot may be less interest to him or perhaps he cba? ime not Kain so i cant tell you why, the effort would likely just be the same.


Repel? first he didnt have it active, second it takes a second to cast and he was already incapaciated and third, the power Moebius used is unkown whether its magical or otherwise.

The bolt looked almost the same but as I said out of 10 materia the two used, all of them for some reaon were apprently fire? nonsense...there prob is not 10 types of fire spell and its illogical anyway. I can ask questions like above too, youy ask why Kain doesnt do things, why didnt the two just grab a Time stop materia or something and defeat Cloud?

Originally posted by Burning thought
if somethinhg is optionl to the plauer whos actions and decisions are irrelvent to kain, false, since nothing points to him not gaining them, however him saying he actually gains them points he does, try taking away the player decisions (since their not canon) and youll be left with Kains dialogue which ofc is.
No, thats if the spell is mandatory storyline spell, its still just optional dialogue, i've given you other examples of other optional dialogue.

If the player has a decision whether or not to attain the spell, so does Kain.

Kain would say that description IF he acquired the spell, but everything suggests that he never did acquire it.


But what makes you think he can slash his opponents so easily? I don't buy that he can defeat them so easily, its not like Dynasty Warriors where you maul through like 100 warriors in a second, 10 Sarafan knights would probably put up a fight against Kain.


So then why was he on the ground trying to reach for his reaver when he can just pull out one of his oh so many spells?


They didn't use all "10" of the materia, they probably both used Fire3 or something, the reason all 10 of them were showing was because both Yazoo and Loz' body were fading away due to Aeris' great gospel limit

Probably because they didn't have Time Stop?

Originally posted by Terryc250
No, thats if the spell is mandatory storyline spell, its still just optional dialogue, i've given you other examples of other optional dialogue.

If the player has a decision whether or not to attain the spell, so does Kain.

Kain would say that description IF he acquired the spell, but everything suggests that he never did acquire it.


But what makes you think he can slash his opponents so easily? I don't buy that he can defeat them so easily, its not like Dynasty Warriors where you maul through like 100 warriors in a second, 10 Sarafan knights would probably put up a fight against Kain.


So then why was he on the ground trying to reach for his reaver when he can just pull out one of his oh so many spells?


They didn't use all "10" of the materia, they probably both used Fire3 or something, the reason all 10 of them were showing was because both Yazoo and Loz' body were fading away due to Aeris' great gospel limit

Probably because they didn't have Time Stop?

What makes it optional is a playuers decision, not a Kain decision, thus your still using gameplay. You keep saying everything suggests, what is this everything? still you use gameplay "sigh"

So easily? he has strength higher than any man when young ,has shown to be perhaps a 40 tonner compared to the blocks he carries that are enormous, regardless of strength its a long sword shown to slice into rock in an instant anyway, sticking a sword into someone would be simply and he himself would be unharmed by sarafan weapons. 10 knights? lawlz, 1000 in an uncanon battle would do nothing. Hes too fast in general.

Prob the same reason why Sephiroth doesnt defeat Cloud or kill him once and for all when he has the chance, PIS. Mayve he cannot cast spells while under the effects of the staff. besdies didnt you just read my last post? he doenst want to kill moebius

wtf? show me this evidence, all 10 materia were glowing....simple..

still they had 10 materia, anong them they didnt have all these powers and apprently out of the god knows how many Cloud had in that box and what they had/could get their hands on they chose 10 blast attacks instead of the so many materia.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What makes it optional is a playuers decision, not a Kain decision, thus your still using gameplay. You keep saying everything suggests, what is this everything? still you use gameplay "sigh"

If the player can go through the story without getting the spell so can Kain, it has NOTHING to do with gameplay, its the story, nothing in the story suggests that the spell is needed, its like a bonus spell.

The story suggests he doesn't get it, think about it, why hasn't Kain soul ripped anyone? Why hasn't he ever spoke of it ever in milleniums? Why isn't he able to use it in any game after BO1?

All those are facts that you cannot deny.


Show me Kain lifting 40 tons please.

Thats if they stand there and let him stick it into them, if Kain could really defeat 1000, why didn't the developers make it like Dynasty Warriors where they maul through hundreds in seconds. I don't buy it BT, unless you actually show me some evidence.


Sephiroth was toying around, and didn't have his guard up, wasn't the same scenario with Kain who was cautious the whole time.

Did I say he was going to kill Moebius? No.


Materia's naturally glow, they're just hardened Mako.
watch at 5:00
Lggc3RsBw4c

They were showing because Loz' and Yazoo's bodies were fading like Kadaj's did.

We don't know what materia's Cloud had in that chest.

Originally posted by Terryc250
If the player can go through the story without getting the spell so can Kain, it has NOTHING to do with gameplay, its the story, nothing in the story suggests that the spell is needed, its like a bonus spell.

The story suggests he doesn't get it, think about it, why hasn't Kain soul ripped anyone? Why hasn't he ever spoke of it ever in milleniums? Why isn't he able to use it in any game after BO1?

All those are facts that you cannot deny.


Show me Kain lifting 40 tons please.

Thats if they stand there and let him stick it into them, if Kain could really defeat 1000, why didn't the developers make it like Dynasty Warriors where they maul through hundreds in seconds. I don't buy it BT, unless you actually show me some evidence.


Sephiroth was toying around, and didn't have his guard up, wasn't the same scenario with Kain who was cautious the whole time.

Did I say he was going to kill Moebius? No.


Materia's naturally glow, they're just hardened Mako.
watch at 5:00
Lggc3RsBw4c

They were showing because Loz' and Yazoo's bodies were fading like Kadaj's did.

We don't know what materia's Cloud had in that chest.

It would be a bonus spell until kain adds it with his Dialogue, if it simply said "spell gained" while playing "da da da darrr" with little stars floating around kain, then it would be a comepltly gameplay spell, all optional, but it doesnt, the option is player related, lets check on what we agree to:

PLayers do not determine canon correct?

Gameplay is not canon correct?

so surely an option that is purely seen only in gameplay and is completly controlled bvy the player within by logic cannot help your argument at all.


Kain does it in Defiance, but here ive proven strength levels by this before now:

Thing is Raziel is indeed incredibly strong, most people dont appreciate it either, see this:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.razorapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/vanderbilt-rock-costume-raphael.jpg&imgrefurl=http://razorapple.com/2006/10/30/costuming-a-10-ton-rock-for-halloween/&h=333&w=500&sz=28&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=SJpY6XgyYN0JnM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&prev=/ images%3Fq%3Dwhat%2Bcan%2Brock%2Bdress%2Bup%2Bas%2
6um%3D1%26hl%3Den

now this Rock weighs 10 tons, now look at this:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VWFp_M6BHpc&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VWFp_M6BHpc&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Raziel moves this large slab which is the same size in comparison to that 10 ton rock, furthermore its actually taller, considering the fact that Raziel has to be around 6 ft and that women is likely not that tall, this rock is still above raziels head by far more than the 10 ton rock in that image is above the women, furthermore the rock is chissled square, its not just a lump of shapepless rock, its got more on it because its got edges and is square, instead of a lump, which makes it heavier. Not only does he push it around but he throws it up a height about a foot taller than him perhaps more several times.

but thats only about perhaps 15-20 tones ive just shown you, later on he lifts around 30/40 tons when he puts one on top of the other! and lifts it with similiar ease around.

now:

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b95x0FwP8Lw&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b95x0FwP8Lw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Raziel hits Kain with many hits, hes not holding back at all from long range, meaing his impact will be heavier than when he hits the rock, then you have to take into consideration his claws are razor sharp, enough so to slash into stone with fair ease thats for sure, all vampire claws in Nosgoth are blade sharp, they can use their claws instead of swords if they wish so. Kain ofc takes it with ease, is not even scratched and then throws down raziels arm and TK blasts him across the area, it may even be more than 40 tons, since those blocks are of more chissled shape, then youve got the fact kain also gets kicked, kicks have even more strength than arms usually. Thats a 35-50 tonner laying into Kain with claws that can pierce solid smooth stone and doesnt even make a scratch, Kain is barely phased, just moved back by the force.


Just let him? what choice do they have, hes far faster than any of them by far, and regarldess of all the strength stuff abive he has shown his sword can slice into rock point first with ease, his strength is not in question here since if he did that, he would slasughter a sarafan in one stroke like in real life , ithink your just thinking on gameplay again, Sarafan take about 5-10 hits? yeh, thats not canon though....

you dont buy kain defeating more than 10 Sarafan lmao.....thats like me not buying Sephiroth couldnt defeat 5 shinra soldiers....petty, their weak as hell.

Then what are you saying he could do to Moebius? as i said, nearly all his powers kill with a shot, those that dont would not benefit Kain, all he wanted was information, in the end I can still claim PIS since technically it was PIS since earlier Kain quckly and easily disarms and defeats moebius.

I know what they look like but they dont look like that inside the body until they start glowing when in use...thus the "charge up" effect.

no we dont, but the chances 10 of them are all Firaga spells is near impossible if not completly impossible and illogical.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It would be a bonus spell until kain adds it with his Dialogue, if it simply said "spell gained" while playing "da da da darrr" with little stars floating around kain, then it would be a comepltly gameplay spell, all optional, but it doesnt, the option is player related, lets check on what we agree to:

PLayers do not determine canon correct?

Gameplay is not canon correct?

so surely an option that is purely seen only in gameplay and is completly controlled bvy the player within by logic cannot help your argument at all.

But you keep avoiding this fact here, its OPTIONAL dialogue, its not the storyline dialogue, its just dialogue you get IF the spell is obtained.

The story determines canon, the players play through the story.

Playing through the STORY, a spell is possibly obtained or possibly not obtained, we'll never know if it was obtained in the actual story or not.

But again everything suggests that it wasn't obtained in the actual story.



And i've shown you how much of a failure that is, its no different from Cloud getting ran over by a 100ton boulder in game.

Either Kain you show me Kain lifting 40 tons+ or not, don't give me all that nonsense.


Far faster then one of them maybe, but altogether they'd probably give him trouble, lol Sephiroth annihilated the entire Shinra building in about 10 minutes, Kain has zero feats to prove he can take on 10 sarafan soldiers with ease.


Not all of his spells kill, what about.. stun? Wouldn't that benefit him?


The chargeup effect is the smoke around their arm, it doesn't neccesarily mean they're using all 10 of them, by "firaga" do you mean "fire"? Why can't they be fire spells? How is that "near impossible"? Fire element materias are quite common.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But you keep avoiding this fact here, its OPTIONAL dialogue, its not the storyline dialogue, its just dialogue you get IF the spell is obtained.

The story determines canon, the players play through the story.

Playing through the STORY, a spell is possibly obtained or possibly not obtained, we'll never know if it was obtained in the actual story or not.

But again everything suggests that it wasn't obtained in the actual story.



And i've shown you how much of a failure that is, its no different from Cloud getting ran over by a 100ton boulder in game.

Either Kain you show me Kain lifting 40 tons+ or not, don't give me all that nonsense.


Far faster then one of them maybe, but altogether they'd probably give him trouble, lol Sephiroth annihilated the entire Shinra building in about 10 minutes, Kain has zero feats to prove he can take on 10 sarafan soldiers with ease.


Not all of his spells kill, what about.. stun? Wouldn't that benefit him?


The chargeup effect is the smoke around their arm, it doesn't neccesarily mean they're using all 10 of them, by "firaga" do you mean "fire"? Why can't they be fire spells? How is that "near impossible"? Fire element materias are quite common.

ime not avoiding it, the fact is that the optional part is gameplay, nothing to do with storyline, kains voice is to do with the universe, the optional part is player controlled.

playing is the key term, their players, thats not canon.

getting hit is diffrent completly because imediatle that happens the gameplay maths logic comes into play which determines health of Cloud and life lost.

How would they give him trouble? he instantly restores his energy from draining ones blood abnd his regen factor is insane and the guy can survive without vital organs too, they would have to literally rip him to pieces which is impossible since Raziel who can slice into rock with ease and with all the strength ive shown above cannot even penetrate those fools will not. Kain is far too fast.

Blow up the shinra building but not fight shinra soldiers?

Stun turns the target catonic with a brain jolt, thus, retarded, if he needs answers he wouldnt be able to talk to a retarded moebius would he.

Because the chances of them taking 10 fire spells, likely not even 10 excist in knowledge, and it would not be logical for them to take only fire powers, since CLoud would have more than just fire spells in his box.

Originally posted by Burning thought
ime not avoiding it, the fact is that the optional part is gameplay, nothing to do with storyline, kains voice is to do with the universe, the optional part is player controlled.

playing is the key term, their players, thats not canon.
So you're saying every item/materia in FF7 is actually acquired by Cloud? And the fact that they're optional is just "gameplay" ? No thats wrong, not all of the optional item/spells are gained by the actual character, even if they have dialogue its just optional dialogue.

Its something Kain would say IF he obtained the spell, but nothing suggests that he did get it.

You're playing as Kain, you go through the same story Kain goes through, however the same choices the player had, Kain had as well, but what the player chose to do is NOT canon, but theres no definate answer to what Kain the character chose either, thats why we use the sequals to suggest what he did choose to do.


No, thats only if its in a gameplay battle, Cloud getting ran over by that huge bolder is outside of gameplay battle just as Raziel lifting that block is, if Raziel lifts it in a cinematic then you can use it as a feat, however, you can't use something that is like gameplay, for example you can't leave your game on while having Raziel holding the block and claim "Raziel lifted it for 10 hours straight" everything in player controlled gameplay is NOT accurate, like Cloud getting ran over by that huge bolder, or Kain slicing a wall with the reaver and the wall remaining undented.


He could survive, but he won't be fighting without his organs, when Raziel took out his heart he was KO'd for a long time, stabbing a rock isn't a feat, stop trying to make it into one.

Blow up the shinra building but not fight shinra soldiers?
Did i say he blew up the building? No, he massacred the entire building killing everyone.


shoot him with a bolt, now i'm guessing your going to amp up the spell and say "He'll blow up" right?


Again, nothing suggests that they used all "10" of them, I don't even think its possible to use 10 at one time.

And Cloud having 10 fire spells is totally possible, but its not relevent.

Originally posted by Terryc250
So you're saying every item/materia in FF7 is actually acquired by Cloud? And the fact that they're optional is just "gameplay" ? No thats wrong, not all of the optional item/spells are gained by the actual character, even if they have dialogue its just optional dialogue.

Its something Kain would say IF he obtained the spell, but nothing suggests that he did get it.

You're playing as Kain, you go through the same story Kain goes through, however the same choices the player had, Kain had as well, but what the player chose to do is NOT canon, but theres no definate answer to what Kain the character chose either, thats why we use the sequals to suggest what he did choose to do.


No, thats only if its in a gameplay battle, Cloud getting ran over by that huge bolder is outside of gameplay battle just as Raziel lifting that block is, if Raziel lifts it in a cinematic then you can use it as a feat, however, you can't use something that is like gameplay, for example you can't leave your game on while having Raziel holding the block and claim "Raziel lifted it for 10 hours straight" everything in player controlled gameplay is NOT accurate, like Cloud getting ran over by that huge bolder, or Kain slicing a wall with the reaver and the wall remaining undented.


He could survive, but he won't be fighting without his organs, when Raziel took out his heart he was KO'd for a long time, stabbing a rock isn't a feat, stop trying to make it into one.

Blow up the shinra building but not fight shinra soldiers?
Did i say he blew up the building? No, he massacred the entire building killing everyone.


shoot him with a bolt, now i'm guessing your going to amp up the spell and say "He'll blow up" right?


Again, nothing suggests that they used all "10" of them, I don't even think its possible to use 10 at one time.

And Cloud having 10 fire spells is totally possible, but its not relevent.

no because CLoud has no canon Dialogue.

His voice pretty much telling us himself he gained it should be proof enough he did unless youve got proof kains a big liar.

The players option is uncanon, I cant belive your assuming that the Player is the same as if it was Kain going through it? so you think every being on the Earth has Kains personality as they play the game? what nonsense, its nothing of the sort.

Its all gameplay...Players doing what you described is playe controlled, however the size of the blocks, teh speed Raziel pushes and pulls them, moves them around is all preset by the game and thus not player controlled. What do you mean a long time? he was Kod for perhaps a few minutes if that, perhaps less so otherwise he would have been ripped to pieces by the demons if he was in there for any longer.

What will shooting him with a bolt do? nonsense.....that will likeyl kill moebius as well.

They were all glowing thus being used.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no because CLoud has no canon Dialogue.
Cloud barely has any dialogue in the entire game, its mostly all just other people talking to him.


But you only hear the voice IF the spell is gained, nothing suggests that the spell is ever gained.


Did i say that? No, i said if the player has a decision whther to do something or not, SO DOES KAIN, kain is not FORCED to go and obtain the spell.


What do you mean its not player controlled? Pushing the blocks is player controlled, you can push the blocks by using the gamepad, but not everything is accurate in gameplay, unless you think walls are undented by getting slashed with the reaver 500 times Raziel can lift up big blocks, Cloud can get run over by 60 ton rocks and be unharmed, but i'm guessing you'll just cherry pick all the good things about the inaccurate gameplay and call them canon right? Then all the rest are just "gameplay".


It'll leave Moebius injured and unarmed, but of course to you energy bolt will probably killing everything, Kain is using it afterall.

Read closely, - Materia Naturally Glows -

It could be pitch black and materia will glow like a flashlight.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Cloud barely has any dialogue in the entire game, its mostly all just other people talking to him.


But you only hear the voice IF the spell is gained, nothing suggests that the spell is ever gained.


Did i say that? No, i said if the player has a decision whther to do something or not, SO DOES KAIN, kain is not FORCED to go and obtain the spell.


What do you mean its not player controlled? Pushing the blocks is player controlled, you can push the blocks by using the gamepad, but not everything is accurate in gameplay, unless you think walls are undented by getting slashed with the reaver 500 times Raziel can lift up big blocks, Cloud can get run over by 60 ton rocks and be unharmed, but i'm guessing you'll just cherry pick all the good things about the inaccurate gameplay and call them canon right? Then all the rest are just "gameplay".


It'll leave Moebius injured and unarmed, but of course to you energy bolt will probably killing everything, Kain is using it afterall.

Read closely, - Materia Naturally Glows -

It could be pitch black and materia will glow like a flashlight.

hm indeed.

I know I only hear it but what the player hears is irrelvent as long as it excists, since we know the canon speech excists and its Kain who says it its irrelvent whether a player decides to gain it or not since players dont make the canon.

Hes not forced, nobody in games are forced to do anything....they just do something, and Kain tells us he gains the spell simple.

No you can chosoe to push the blocks but the speed of the blocks of raziel pushing them is not player controlled, there are a lot of static things the playes cannot control. No because weve seen and can logically understand how a sword could cause marks, thats endgine/graphical limitations however the blocks are supposed ot be this way, the develpors have not shipped a bugged game where the blocks are too big for the character, they choose the level design, the size of the blocks etc etc.

Why to me? energy bolt is a simple and fairly weak spell but if youve played the game it can explode some beings like normal humans, as Kain says "its a messy spell" so it could cause more than just a disarm to moebius, dont forget he is old as well....a bolt into the chest or arm could greatly damage the guy, but as Kain says later, he needs moebius, he could not risk killing or harming him too badly and who are you to judge Kains motives?

yeh but it doesnt glow like that when inside somene unelss their using it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I know I only hear it but what the player hears is irrelvent as long as it excists, since we know the canon speech excists and its Kain who says it its irrelvent whether a player decides to gain it or not since players dont make the canon.

But it exists as an "if", if the spell is obtained it Kain WOULD say that description.

But we don't exactly know what paths he chooses going through the story.

He tells us he gains it IF he gains it, if he doesn't then he doesn't.

Its still gameplay, its like saying the developers put in that size of bolder because Cloud can survive being ran over by a 60 ton bolder.

Not everything in gameplay is accurate, if he did it in a cinematic it would actually mean something.

Alright then why doesn't he shoot an "incapacitate" at him so he can gain back his composure and then ask Moebius the questions he wants?

I'm just saying if he truely has all these spells, why doesn't he use them?

Its glowing because their bodies were fading away, just like Kadaj's body faded away.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But it exists as an "if", if the spell is obtained it Kain WOULD say that description.

But we don't exactly know what paths he chooses going through the story.

He tells us he gains it IF he gains it, if he doesn't then he doesn't.

Its still gameplay, its like saying the developers put in that size of bolder because Cloud can survive being ran over by a 60 ton bolder.

Not everything in gameplay is accurate, if he did it in a cinematic it would actually mean something.

Alright then why doesn't he shoot an "incapacitate" at him so he can gain back his composure and then ask Moebius the questions he wants?

I'm just saying if he truely has all these spells, why doesn't he use them?

Its glowing because their bodies were fading away, just like Kadaj's body faded away.

no because you take away the "if" in this debate because the "if" is a player decision which is not canon, and so irrelvent.

We do because he says he gains the spell, as I said before if we take away the optonal player gameplay crap and leave just the in-universe things we get Kain claiming he has gianed the spell.

Show me cloud getting hit by the boulder, the very fact he is hit means the gmaeplay statistics would take into account his health bar.

Why would a cinematic change it? you see your argument earlier was that Cinematics always happen, well the blocks always happen, you canot get to another area, or continue with the story without moving those blocks...teir the same as a cinematic, and just as static in which the player cnnot determine their size/volume etc nor the speed Raziel manipulates them. Players use Kratos' gameplay items he picks up as gauges for his strength mostly, half of the cinematics dont show Kratos showing nearly half as many strength feats as his gameplay picking up does.

PIS, obviously the Developers want the player to see moebius' staff since its relevent later on, since as I said, later on Kain doesnt use or even need a spell, his TK can manipulate items and moebius with ease.

because half of them are killers, most of them are unessary as well, as I said before lets pretend the developers were out of this and it was just Kain if he was real and the developers couldnt just choose what he uses and how, Kain still wouldnt want to use his powers becuase theres no point ,he tosses Sarafan around like flies with ease, he doesnt need to use spells against perhaps anyone in the entire Defiance storyline.

But that was after he was killed at the end your talking about?

conclusion - not cannon. i cant beleive ur still at it terry, just leave the hopeless. kain dies a horrible death, now lets actually have sumthing on topic for a change.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no because you take away the "if" in this debate because the "if" is a player decision which is not canon, and so irrelvent.
I've said this before over and over, if in the story, the player who plays as Kain gets a decision whether or not to obtain the spell or not (just as Cloud has the choice whether or not to obtain Knights of the round, Master Materia, or any other optional spell *yes they all have dialogue*)

That means KAIN the character also has the choice in the story, he is not forced to gain the spell, its a big "IF", if the character actually gained the spell or not.

Nothing suggests that Kain actually gained the spell in the canon story plot, just as nothing suggests Cloud gained KOTR or Master Materia, because Cloud or anyone else uses it in AC

And Kain never talks about it, or uses it in the next 4 sequals of LOK.


He only gives a description IF the spell is gained, thats right, the big "IF" nothing suggests he actually gained it, it doesn't matter if theres dialogue or not its the fact that its optional dialogue, just because theres optional dialogue does NOT mean it actually happened in the canon plot, think about it.

If we used the entire dialogue in FF7 all the optional ones as well, that would mean Cloud and party gained every single item, materia, in the FF7 world, but did they in the canon plot? No.


No it doesn't because it wasn't in a battle, it was in the ingame world, and since you think its the same as cinematic, that means he can survive that, since its no different then cinematic
at 9:20
stoskknPp10


Because everything in the ingame gameplay world isn't totally accurate, whereas in a cinematic the developers actually make the video so that it is accurate, like having two characters battle in a cinematic is actually how it would look if they battled instead of how it would be in gameplay, or if it showed Kain slashing at a wall in a cinematic you think the wall would remain undented? No.

Does that mean Cloud is the size of towns? Because in the ingame world he is.


Right.. Kain has every spell even the optional ones but he just chooses not to use it.

Show me Kain tossing around sarafan knights with ease, or any LOK character tossing sarafan knights with ease, Kain just "not using his spells" is just your excuse for Kain not having them, why didn't he use some spells against Raziel instead of let him get his heart ripped out? A nice old incapacitate or any other spell would've been helpful


No, DURING, the rain (aeris' limit break) was destroying all the Jenova cells, and their bodies were fading away, like Kadaj's, at that same time Yazoo and Loz' bodies were fading as well, thus the materia's were showing.

Originally posted by Terryc250
I've said this before over and over, if in the story, the player who plays as Kain gets a decision whether or not to obtain the spell or not (just as Cloud has the choice whether or not to obtain Knights of the round, Master Materia, or any other optional spell *yes they all have dialogue*)

That means KAIN the character also has the choice in the story, he is not forced to gain the spell, its a big "IF", if the character actually gained the spell or not.

Nothing suggests that Kain actually gained the spell in the canon story plot, just as nothing suggests Cloud gained KOTR or Master Materia, because Cloud or anyone else uses it in AC

And Kain never talks about it, or uses it in the next 4 sequals of LOK.


He only gives a description IF the spell is gained, thats right, the big "IF" nothing suggests he actually gained it, it doesn't matter if theres dialogue or not its the fact that its optional dialogue, just because theres optional dialogue does NOT mean it actually happened in the canon plot, think about it.

If we used the entire dialogue in FF7 all the optional ones as well, that would mean Cloud and party gained every single item, materia, in the FF7 world, but did they in the canon plot? No.


No it doesn't because it wasn't in a battle, it was in the ingame world, and since you think its the same as cinematic, that means he can survive that, since its no different then cinematic
at 9:20
stoskknPp10


Because everything in the ingame gameplay world isn't totally accurate, whereas in a cinematic the developers actually make the video so that it is accurate, like having two characters battle in a cinematic is actually how it would look if they battled instead of how it would be in gameplay, or if it showed Kain slashing at a wall in a cinematic you think the wall would remain undented? No.

Does that mean Cloud is the size of towns? Because in the ingame world he is.


Right.. Kain has every spell even the optional ones but he just chooses not to use it.

Show me Kain tossing around sarafan knights with ease, or any LOK character tossing sarafan knights with ease, Kain just "not using his spells" is just your excuse for Kain not having them, why didn't he use some spells against Raziel instead of let him get his heart ripped out? A nice old incapacitate or any other spell would've been helpful


No, DURING, the rain (aeris' limit break) was destroying all the Jenova cells, and their bodies were fading away, like Kadaj's, at that same time Yazoo and Loz' bodies were fading as well, thus the materia's were showing.

And as ive said countless times the Player does not determine canon of the game, the games in-universe content does, thus Kain speech is in-unvierse since its himself saying he gains the spell, thus he has the spell.

The next 4? 2 of them you barely even see Kain, and the second one, Blood omen 2 he had forgotten them.

No because your "if" comes from a players gameplay choice, all uncanon nonsense, but you usualyl use that "sigh". Kains speech is still there and what he says is more truthful than your gameplay usage. Your entire argument is based around a player apprently deciding whats canon lol

Youve not shown me a singel dialogue even comparable to Kains for FF materia. Their prob all gamepaly terms from my own FF10 experiance.

First thats as I said, a character getting hit which accumulates a mathmatical gameplay formulae, HP-100, boulder hits him, HP-70 kind of thing, only I didnt see a boulder hit him?

thats not the game world though, thats a players interface view so he can interact with the game, not to mention weve seen Clouds size in canon aynway.

http://i17.tinypic.com/6felzc4.jpg

Perhaps the weakest Kain holding a Sarafan knight with one hand by the throat, their nothing.

BrYPpUe4Xok

throughout that video youll also see him bashing Sarafan like their nothing

lol, if he doesnt use them, he doesnt use them, nothing states he doesnt have them so he cannot lose them since gaiing them in BO 1, the developers just chose not to put them in the game, simple.

Originally posted by Burning thought
And as ive said countless times the Player does not determine canon of the game, the games in-universe content does, thus Kain speech is in-unvierse since its himself saying he gains the spell, thus he has the spell.
But listen, Kain only says that description IF the optional spell is obtained <-- nothing suggests he obtains that spell in the actual canon story.

In the STORY, Kain most likely does NOT obtain the optional spell, why else doesn't he "soul rip" anyone in the entire storyline? Why else doesn't he ever mention this "optional spell" ever, in the next 4 sequals?


My point still stands, its never mentioned, or used.

Well since he forgets them, whats to say he re-acquires them, let alone even got them in the first place? That basically proves he doesn't have them.


God damn, are you having trouble reading? I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.


I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).


I couldn't find a video where the boulder hits Cloud, but its not gameplay its in-world, when you get hit by the boulder it just drags the character back, you don't lose HP or anything, the only time you lose HP is in a gameplay battle.


Which is proof that not everything in the gameplay in-world is accurate.


.. Is that supposed to be impressive? Because its not, its not even a feat. Captain America or Wolverine can do it, its not a feat for someone who supposedly can take out Planet Busters and crap rofl.

In the video you don't even see Kain fighting more then 4 at once, and even then it takes him awhile to defeat them unless he uses his reaver is charged and uses its powers, or unless he pushes them off a building.

I mean really, they're just regular humans wearing armor.. any higher tier character, DS, Sephiroth, Dante, would kill them in split seconds.


Uhh.. nothing states he even gained some of them in the actual canon story.

He even lost his memory, and only regained memory of what happened, nothing suggests he re-acquired all his spells, there were times where he should've used his spells (if he actually had them) like when he was going to get owned by Raziel or against Raziel.

^BT knows quite well what your talking about and what ur argument is. no use ecplaining it repeatedly, he just CHOOSES to play with you and bring up fallacies to give hie character a win.

Originally posted by Terryc250
But listen, Kain only says that description IF the optional spell is obtained <-- nothing suggests he obtains that spell in the actual canon story.

In the STORY, Kain most likely does NOT obtain the optional spell, why else doesn't he "soul rip" anyone in the entire storyline? Why else doesn't he ever mention this "optional spell" ever, in the next 4 sequals?


My point still stands, its never mentioned, or used.

Well since he forgets them, whats to say he re-acquires them, let alone even got them in the first place? That basically proves he doesn't have them.


God damn, are you having trouble reading? I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.


I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).


I couldn't find a video where the boulder hits Cloud, but its not gameplay its in-world, when you get hit by the boulder it just drags the character back, you don't lose HP or anything, the only time you lose HP is in a gameplay battle.


Which is proof that not everything in the gameplay in-world is accurate.


.. Is that supposed to be impressive? Because its not, its not even a feat. Captain America or Wolverine can do it, its not a feat for someone who supposedly can take out Planet Busters and crap rofl.

In the video you don't even see Kain fighting more then 4 at once, and even then it takes him awhile to defeat them unless he uses his reaver is charged and uses its powers, or unless he pushes them off a building.

I mean really, they're just regular humans wearing armor.. any higher tier character, DS, Sephiroth, Dante, would kill them in split seconds.


Uhh.. nothing states he even gained some of them in the actual canon story.

He even lost his memory, and only regained memory of what happened, nothing suggests he re-acquired all his spells, there were times where he should've used his spells (if he actually had them) like when he was going to get owned by Raziel or against Raziel.

He suggests it, he>you, that option is a player decision, which is not canon.

The same reason Sephiroth doesnt cast many powers in storyline, he hardly does anything but use his sword, then his fans say "zomg hez only toying with thems!!!" diffrence being Kain is fighting saps who couldnt do anything to him, Sephiroth fights people who defeat him outright.

No you see I thought you would fall in that pitfall, Blood omen 2 Kain is a off-shoot from a time mainpulation, the current and latest Kain has lived through both realities, gaining the spells in the BO 2 before BO 2 was made possible.

yeh youve said a lot of things, does that make them true? bs, your desperatley likening the Player to Kain? your saying the Player is now the embodiment of Kain in the real world when they play the game?

But is there in-universe information on the materia itself?

Either way, its a object harming a character. Gameplay and balance involved.

No it proves he tosses around Sarafan knights with ease like their rubbish, he consistently destroys them. Where did i say it was a feat for taking out planet busters? Terry you are failing so badly...lol, I think your going to try and straw man at some point because you cannot keep up with this debate and whats worst youve prob realised your gameplay dellusion is not going to save Sephiroth or your other fave characters from Kain.

No, none of them would, Dante would prob slash them about 14 times getting combo ratings like "showtime" when he hits them about 5 times, Sephrioth will be standing there waiting his turn just like they do on the games in their GAMEPLAY lol..

He states he gains them, simple, you seem to having trouble determining gameplay from in-universe information.

He isnt trying to kill Raziel or even defeat him so it shows how much you know and on the memory thing look above, the current Kain has lived through various time lines (more accuratley he remembers memories from another timeline, the BO2 timeline)

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^BT knows quite well what your talking about and what ur argument is. no use ecplaining it repeatedly, he just CHOOSES to play with you and bring up fallacies to give hie character a win.


I just have to keep Sephiroth fanboys from overunning this place, and your wrong on all accounts, instead of trolling add something to this debate please, or ill report you again. There are no fallacies, the fact your siding with Terry whos argument is based around gameplay shows you dont understand canon yourself or what a debate is.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He suggests it, he>you, that option is a player decision, which is not canon.
He doesn't suggest anything wtf? Seriously you're just speaking nonsense now to try to excuse yourself here. Sorry BT but you fail.

I've already given you a reply to what you're saying "option is a player decision"

here is what i said:

"I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.


I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).
"

Now are you really going to reply more nonsense and resay "optional is a player decision"?

Come on BT, just read and comprehend it for longer then 1 minute.


Are you talking about the fight in AC? It was even stated that Sephiroth was toying around with him, its fact.
Sephiroth is leagues above Cloud and just wanted to torment him for along time, because of their history.

If Sephiroth was fighting anyone else he'd kill them instantly, but since it was Cloud he wanted to drag it on tormenting him for as long as he could, and let him know he was going to take away everything he ever cared about.

Kain on the other hand goes around sword fighting people, gets embarassed by Moebius, gets owned by Raziel, and just simply refuses to use his so called "spells" that he has.


Then wtf was the point in mentioning he loses his memory if its not even relevent?


Did I say that? I said the player plays as Kain, this is FACT. If the player has a decision to make, so does Kain. I've given you plenty of examples yet you're desperately just trying to put words in my mouth, purposely acting dull-witted and slow-minded to excuse yourself from giving an argument.


Yes, heres the master materia dialogue

The world's changed a lot in the past few days......

That huge monster Meteor was covering up the sky and acting like he owned it or something...

A lot of my friends have died......

I'm goin' on a journey to pray for their souls.

OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?

I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em!

How about it?


So, you went on about how in-world is the same as cinematic, and now your saying that its gameplay? Rofl its hilarious how you cherry pick everything to make a LOK character stronger and downplay a character you don't like. Sorry BT but you fail, everything in the in-world gameplay is not accurate.


Lifting one sarafan knight doesn't mean he tosses them around like flies rofl, haha Sephiroth is above Kain BT, Kain is a featless character, seriously he's weak, higher characters like even Ryu Hayabusa would blitz Kain.


So show me Kain fighting outside of gameplay? Guaranteed its nothing impressive.


Not in the canon story he doesnt.

Has Kain ever soul ripped anyone? No.


So he's just going to let Raziel rip out his heart right? Lol, if he apprantly has all his spells he'd just incapicitate him or something.

Show me proof he actually re-acquires his spells, and that he just doesn't remember the Events that took place.

Originally posted by Terryc250
He doesn't suggest anything wtf? Seriously you're just speaking nonsense now to try to excuse yourself here. Sorry BT but you fail.

I've already given you a reply to what you're saying "option is a player decision"

here is what i said:

"I've said it sooo many times, if the player has a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, so does Kain.

We play as Cloud, we have a choice to go and obtain KOTR, or Master Materia, yes theres dialogue, but does that mean the actual character Cloud goes and obtains KOTR and Master Materia in the actual storyline? No. Cloud did not gain any of those optional materia.

We play as Kain we have a choice to go and obtain an optional spell, if we gain it, there's dialogue, if we don't theres no dialogue. The character Kain can gain the optional spell, or he didn't, we'll never know, but everything suggests he didn't.


I have given you dialogue, the character who gives Cloud master materia even talks about meteor (an in-universe issue) before getting KOTR theres dialogue about mako (an inuniverse issue).
"

Now are you really going to reply more nonsense and resay "optional is a player decision"?

Come on BT, just read and comprehend it for longer then 1 minute.


Are you talking about the fight in AC? It was even stated that Sephiroth was toying around with him, its fact.
Sephiroth is leagues above Cloud and just wanted to torment him for along time, because of their history.

If Sephiroth was fighting anyone else he'd kill them instantly, but since it was Cloud he wanted to drag it on tormenting him for as long as he could, and let him know he was going to take away everything he ever cared about.

Kain on the other hand goes around sword fighting people, gets embarassed by Moebius, gets owned by Raziel, and just simply refuses to use his so called "spells" that he has.


Then wtf was the point in mentioning he loses his memory if its not even relevent?


Did I say that? I said the player plays as Kain, this is FACT. If the player has a decision to make, so does Kain. I've given you plenty of examples yet you're desperately just trying to put words in my mouth, purposely acting dull-witted and slow-minded to excuse yourself from giving an argument.


Yes, heres the master materia dialogue

The world's changed a lot in the past few days......

That huge monster Meteor was covering up the sky and acting like he owned it or something...

A lot of my friends have died......

I'm goin' on a journey to pray for their souls.

OH! It's the Earth Harp! Wanna trade it for some Master Materia?

I'm not bein' stingy either! I'll give you all three of 'em!

How about it?


So, you went on about how in-world is the same as cinematic, and now your saying that its gameplay? Rofl its hilarious how you cherry pick everything to make a LOK character stronger and downplay a character you don't like. Sorry BT but you fail, everything in the in-world gameplay is not accurate.


Lifting one sarafan knight doesn't mean he tosses them around like flies rofl, haha Sephiroth is above Kain BT, Kain is a featless character, seriously he's weak, higher characters like even Ryu Hayabusa would blitz Kain.


So show me Kain fighting outside of gameplay? Guaranteed its nothing impressive.


Not in the canon story he doesnt.

Has Kain ever soul ripped anyone? No.


So he's just going to let Raziel rip out his heart right? Lol, if he apprantly has all his spells he'd just incapicitate him or something.

Show me proof he actually re-acquires his spells, and that he just doesn't remember the Events that took place.

Yes he does, Kain says he has the spell himself so I guess hes not just suggesting your right, hes telling us hes got it. no your the one who needs to read and comprehend, it is all a player decision regardless of the fact the player is playing as Kain, the player doesnt excist in the canon of the game, the player is nothing, with the optional gameplay BS removed, your left with Kain saying he has the spell, the option doesnt excist because Kain alreayd has the speech for it. The option is simply the players option.

yeh right, I always hear he is leagues above him, obviously being beaten several times doesnt count however...he even gets impaled at some point but i cannot remebmer exactley when.

Moebius has something that affects all vampires unfortatley what Kain are we talking about because since i recall this is the latest Kain in this debate who is not affected. he doesnt get owned at all, infact Kain beats him first, so watch the videos again. Infact if you watch carefully you see both of them are in pain and Kain isnt even trying to kill Raziel.

Its relevent to BO2, so you cant use it as a "he didnt use hiz spelzor in that sequel" thus leaving you with only Defiance where he didnt use powers.
ONE sequel.

yet your constant useage of gameplay shows that, the player does indeed PLAY as Kain, in GAMEPLAY however the Players decisions do not infuleance the canon of the game.

He merely mentions the name of master materia....thats not dialogue much about the Master materia at all.

Thats not in-world wally lol...thats in-gameplay. No your right, the in-world gameplay apart form static events not touched by players or balance mechanics.

Well if youve played the games youll see he does it throughout, ime just showing you an example of how at his weakest he can easily toss Sarafan knights. Yeh in your bias sad little world Sephiroth is above kain, in the real world however, Kain could rip the fool apart as he tries to cast one of his one hour cast time spells.

he doesnt really fight outside of gameplay so far, he blitzes Raziel when he is possessin the body of moebis, flying instantly forwards and at the same time piercing a thick rock point first without momentum loss, that alone would scewer a couple of Sarafan. and show me Sephiroth being impressive lol, unless you think being sliced up by emos is impressive ofc.

kains voice is canon.....wtf are you talking about? your only argument is a gameplay one lol..

why should he have to?

He was held with his arms in the air, how is he going to cast? he doesnt fire incapaciate out of his eyes.

No your confused, he only remembers what happened in the BO2 timeline which did not excist beforehand, thus, he has lived BO2 in his memories but BO1 was his choice. he doesnt actually lose anything, he gains memories.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^BT knows quite well what your talking about and what ur argument is. no use ecplaining it repeatedly, he just CHOOSES to play with you and bring up fallacies to give hie character a win.

Weren't you just banned for this behaviour?

Oh, that's right, you were.

Knock it off or there's going to be another ban.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes he does, Kain says he has the spell himself so I guess hes not just suggesting your right, hes telling us hes got it. no your the one who needs to read and comprehend, it is all a player decision regardless of the fact the player is playing as Kain, the player doesnt excist in the canon of the game, the player is nothing, with the optional gameplay BS removed, your left with Kain saying he has the spell, the option doesnt excist because Kain alreayd has the speech for it. The option is simply the players option.

No Kain does NOT say that in the storyline, he only says it IF the optional spell IS gained, which it most likely isn't. We've been over this about a hundred times now.

I've given you plently of examples you just refuse to believe it, and keep repeating yourself because you're to stubborn to concede when you have no argument left.

The bottom line is, the spell is optional, yes theres a description of it IF the spell is gained, but nothing suggests the optional spell is actually gained in the canon plot storyline, just as nothing suggests Cloud and party gained KOTR or Master Materia in the actual plot storyline.


Because he is leagues above him, he's just as above Cloud as Ganon is above Link, probably even more.


So he just let Raziel rip his heart out? If he had these so called spells he should've been able to neutralize him if he didn't want to kill him.


Well you just said the current Kain (who has all the spell supposedly) has lived through BO2, so why didn't he use any of the spells while he was in BO2? Or any of his appearances in SR? And give me the evidence that he actually re-acquired all of the spells, and not just regained the memory of the events.

Nor did i say the players decisions influenced it, i said if the player has a decision in the story, then in the story kain has a decision as well, which is true.

If something is optional for the player, it means its possible as well for Kain to not have gotten the spell.

For example, a mandatory materia in the storyline of FF7 is Fire, he needed it to ignite a mako reactor, that means in the story Cloud actually gets Fire materia, its a canon materia to the story, however optional materia like KOTR is a big "maybe" that he gets it in the story, yes its optional for the player, and its a "maybe" for Cloud.

Same thing with BO, Kain needed energy bolt to reach the switch in the story, but optional spells like spirit death is a "maybe" as well, its optional, and nothing suggests that he actually got it in the canon story.


Yes it is dialogue, BT you're really just picking at straws now rofl.


Its just as "in gameplay" as Raziel moving blocks, then you using that as "Kains skin can stand TONS OF WEIGHT!" lol, its no different from Cloud being run over from a 60 ton bolder.


Dude, to you BT, Kain can beat anyone so you saying that means basically nothing.
Why would Sephiroth take an hour to cast spells? Rofl.
Magic from the NL works basically instant, Sephiroth is about 30x faster then Kain, has instant teleport, has 30x more powerful TK, Kain is nothing. Sorry BT but its the truth.


He blitz'd him? Rofl, more like Raziel just stood there and let Kain slash at him then stab him. And he did lose momentum why do you think he "stopped" ? Not losing momentum is Cloud shooting upwards and cutting up building pieces while keeping his momentum speed upwards, until Sephiroth hit him.

Sephiroth just toying around is about 50x more impressive then featless Kain.


But Kain doesn't say that in the actual STORYLINE, only if the spell is OBTAINED, which it isn't <-- try to cram that into your head please.


Haha what a good answer, I should start saying Cloud can bust planets, then just say "Why should he have to? He's got Omnislash"


Uhh after Raziel slashed him, he just stood there for like 5 seconds doing nothing, that should be plenty of time to bust out his uber spells.


He gains back his memory of the events, but i'm waiting on evidence on if he actually acquires his spells again.

Originally posted by Terryc250
No Kain does NOT say that in the storyline, he only says it IF the optional spell IS gained, which it most likely isn't. We've been over this about a hundred times now.

I've given you plently of examples you just refuse to believe it, and keep repeating yourself because you're to stubborn to concede when you have no argument left.

The bottom line is, the spell is optional, yes theres a description of it IF the spell is gained, but nothing suggests the optional spell is actually gained in the canon plot storyline, just as nothing suggests Cloud and party gained KOTR or Master Materia in the actual plot storyline.


Because he is leagues above him, he's just as above Cloud as Ganon is above Link, probably even more.


So he just let Raziel rip his heart out? If he had these so called spells he should've been able to neutralize him if he didn't want to kill him.


Well you just said the current Kain (who has all the spell supposedly) has lived through BO2, so why didn't he use any of the spells while he was in BO2? Or any of his appearances in SR? And give me the evidence that he actually re-acquired all of the spells, and not just regained the memory of the events.

Nor did i say the players decisions influenced it, i said if the player has a decision in the story, then in the story kain has a decision as well, which is true.

If something is optional for the player, it means its possible as well for Kain to not have gotten the spell.

For example, a mandatory materia in the storyline of FF7 is Fire, he needed it to ignite a mako reactor, that means in the story Cloud actually gets Fire materia, its a canon materia to the story, however optional materia like KOTR is a big "maybe" that he gets it in the story, yes its optional for the player, and its a "maybe" for Cloud.

Same thing with BO, Kain needed energy bolt to reach the switch in the story, but optional spells like spirit death is a "maybe" as well, its optional, and nothing suggests that he actually got it in the canon story.


Yes it is dialogue, BT you're really just picking at straws now rofl.


Its just as "in gameplay" as Raziel moving blocks, then you using that as "Kains skin can stand TONS OF WEIGHT!" lol, its no different from Cloud being run over from a 60 ton bolder.


Dude, to you BT, Kain can beat anyone so you saying that means basically nothing.
Why would Sephiroth take an hour to cast spells? Rofl.
Magic from the NL works basically instant, Sephiroth is about 30x faster then Kain, has instant teleport, has 30x more powerful TK, Kain is nothing. Sorry BT but its the truth.


He blitz'd him? Rofl, more like Raziel just stood there and let Kain slash at him then stab him. And he did lose momentum why do you think he "stopped" ? Not losing momentum is Cloud shooting upwards and cutting up building pieces while keeping his momentum speed upwards, until Sephiroth hit him.

Sephiroth just toying around is about 50x more impressive then featless Kain.


But Kain doesn't say that in the actual STORYLINE, only if the spell is OBTAINED, which it isn't <-- try to cram that into your head please.


Haha what a good answer, I should start saying Cloud can bust planets, then just say "Why should he have to? He's got Omnislash"


Uhh after Raziel slashed him, he just stood there for like 5 seconds doing nothing, that should be plenty of time to bust out his uber spells.


He gains back his memory of the events, but i'm waiting on evidence on if he actually acquires his spells again.

What are you calling storyline again? since its all part of the story, he speaks as if it was part of the universe/story, so yeh it is, the optional part is gameplay which is not taken into canon, here ill help you understand by boldening the parts of your point here that is gamepaly. And the fact its not a description of what the spell doesin gameplay but in the universe its in makes it canon.

Unfortunaley hes not an American, he doesnt shoot first and ask questions later, he doesnt blast Raziel with a brain destroying bolt or freeze him in time to w8 around reading a magazine while Raziel unfreezes hoping Raziel is going to be civil afterwards, he was coming to him as a friend but the Hylden evil was pushing him into kiling Kain while Kain wasnt even prone to anything of the sort.

heavens above it seems ime just confusing you, heres how it is:

Kains real history is in Blood omen one, the first game right?

now...due to events in Soul reaver, a new timeline was created seperate from the mainstream that was Blood omen 2 which is where Kain lost his powers, however, the only kain to lose the powers was the BO 2 kain because the Kain in the present has actually excisted in BO 1 timeline but gained the BO2 as memories, so he has both the memoeries of BO 1 and BO 2, meaning he has the memory and powers of his former spells.

Thus in conclusion Kain has not lost any spells presently, only the BO 2 kain did, the events of BO 2 however only came to the present Elder Kain as memories. therefore Defiance is the only time we see Kain where he doesnt use spells, only ONE sequel.

yes you are, your claiming that the Players option which is all the players option is also Kains when Kains story is already written for him, he doesnt atually have a choice since the developers have already written out the events for him that will take place.

But things being mandatory for the playe mean nothing unless theres actualyl storyline behind the objects, if you needed a spell or object to access somewhere, that doesnt mean anything unless its stated somewhere in the story, otherwise its just gameplay. Its the descriptions that are important and what beings in the unviersrse say out of gameplay.

yeh its dialogue, just nothing much about the Master materia, I think your the one whos dieing argument leaves you picking at straws but mostly just gamepaly.

It is diffrent because no gameplay/balance calculation is made for Raziel pulling blocks about, their simply puzzle items, their volume and weight is static, the player has nothing to do with that and theres no balance to stop the player from being curb stomped like in the gamepaly with Cloud, the rocks one hitting him would be balance calcualted for damage.

Sephiroth is a joke, and it does mean something coming from me since a handfull of people agree but thats irrelvent, what is, is the fact that Sephiroth hasnt cast any spells from the Negative lifestream and the only powers that have been cast from it have been weak shadow dogs...his teleport is sluggish at best unless you have a new video to show. His TK has never even shown the ability to hold people down completly without their arms flaling about.

He stops when he has already got face to face with Raziel, under his own speed, he doesnt lose momentum after hitting the rock.

lol wut? yeh in your crazy little FF world...Sephiroth does nothing...nothing imrpessive at all, nice little dodge of my question though.

Kain tells us he obtained the spell lmao..what are you talking about it "isnzt zomg why arnt you listening to my logicless points!!" ., kain has already told us he gained the spell, the optional part is just that a gameplay option....GAAAMMMEEEPLAAYY say it with me...g-a-m-e-p-l-a-y.

err what points to Cloud even logically or in any way part of the gameplay, or universe be anything to do with busting planets, thats not even within the capabilities of FF universe...certainly not FF7

Thats like saying why a guy with a gun cant shoot back after being shot 20 times...he just cant, their badly damaged/weakened.

lol once again, ill explain, he doesnt lose his spells, only BO2 kain does, the present Kain gains MEMORIES from BO2 due to a time anomoly, he doesnt forget anything BO2, he gains BO2 itself as a memory of events after changing time, he has lived BO1 and BO2 timelines.

Originally posted by Peach
Weren't you just banned for this behaviour?

Oh, that's right, you were.

Knock it off or there's going to be another ban.

and what sort of behaviour would that be, specifically? i only see truth in that statement, minus any jutified insults. or wait, havent you really been reading the posts of the members you ban, try reading some of burning thought's stuff. i dont like biased or uninformed moderaters.

For the record BT, pushing something and lifting sumthin are different, it is alot easier to push something.

Raziel does both so its irrelvent

He lifts 40 tons?

He lifts about 20 and pushes 40, still impressive, you couldnt push 40 tonnes without aid, especially not a block of concrete, nobody could. You would have to have a massive strength value.

You can't push 5 tons without aid.

I don't see your point.

the queer blue guy is strong, thats the point

stronger than kain thats for sure.

lol Leon your baiting is not only obvious but also weak since Kain manhandles raziel many times.....