Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

WTF????? How????

He's Jesus' cousin, twice removed.

he uses the force. I bet you coulda guessed that if you had thought about it a bit.

Considering he was capable of tanking AT-AT blasts with his Force shields just a few years post ROTJ, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
He's Jesus' cousin, twice removed.

the only difference was that Jesus is REAL and he actually did walk on water.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the only difference was that Jesus is REAL and he actually did walk on water. Maybe Jesus is imaginary.

Ooooh, don't say that, you'll go to hell!

....where Manbearpig waits

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ooooh, don't say that, you'll go to hell!

....where Manbearpig waits Well now you're just being ignorant, Tom.

Tom... his names tom...

And you're banned.

When did Luke walk on lava? Because that is slightly ridiculous...

I remember something like that. It was in the Jedi Academy Trilogy I think. Jedi Search.

All jokes aside thats a pretty odd use of the force and What I mean was what did he do? Heat control? I need some insight here!

he just walked on air over a lake of lava

It was in the first novel of the JA series, when he was proving himself to Gantoris.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Well now you're just being ignorant, Tom.
I love that episode!!! (or mini-series actually. trilogy?) That and the one with Richard Dawkins and the otters are great! In all seriousness, it isnt that increadible of a feat. Now if he had turned water into wine and fed the hungry with a few loaves of bread and some fish, i would be most impressed.

Hmm, yet another example of the Expanded Universe not relying on the concept of the Force being a subtle ally, then.

The idea of the force being a subtle ally is in itself a ridiculous concept anyway, imo.

How so?

I see the force as the Matrix, I.E., everything is in your mind. So...you really should be able to do whatever the heck you want with it if you really honestly believe you can and can see yourself doing it. Yoda himself said that size doesn't matter, so why should it matter if someone, say, moves a moon? Even Lucas has said that the things the Jedi did in the CW cartoon is how he envisioned the force and Jedi as being. A large majority of the force's creation is based off of eastern religions and myths as well as Western like Christianity. Jesus had faith in God's power and so was able to walk on water. Peter got halfway there and freaked out, then fell through. In JA Luke took faith in the force and, lo and behold, walked on Lava.

Obi-Wan said the force is an energy field, and you can move the energy with your mind. Well, it would take a lot less concentration to move something small because it has such a small energy field around it than something enormous because the energy field around that is huge. but it would be, theoretically, possible.

And Yoda said the size doesn't matter. You just have to think you can... and you pretty much can, which is the point, Your abilities are only as limited as your imagination and your willpower is.

I dont believe yoda was being completely honest with Luke. He had to inspire the guy, and that sometimes means telling half truths. Of course size matter (hehe, thats what she said!!!) because if it didn't, the empire would have no need for the death star. Vader or sidious would be able to throw planets into stars and crush Mon Calamari cruisers with utter ease.

Unless they didn't think they could. Vader himself did state that the Death Star was pathetic compared to the power of the force.

Yeah, I've never bought into the whole "size matters not" crap. Taken literally, movng a planet's orbit by one's self should be a breeze.

In the Matrix you can actually do almost whatever yo want, even reverse death. And yet... not everyone can do what Neo and Smith do, and even they don't run around blowing up cities and stuff, even though theretically they can.

I like there to be a limit. Power... unlimited power!... is to me just a means for authors and writers who want money/fame for composing a SW piece, to capitilize. And frankly, letting them do so is ruining the series, and making it boring.

I personally feel that a limit shouldn't be capped on an energy soruce that has been stated before to be virtually limitless. The only limit I agree with is the one that's already there, the person who is wielding the energy source.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
The idea of the force being a subtle ally is in itself a ridiculous concept anyway, imo.

so you wouldn't consider the jedi mindtrick to be subtle?

I don't understand yoru point.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
I personally feel that a limit shouldn't be capped on an energy soruce that has been stated before to be virtually limitless. The only limit I agree with is the one that's already there, the person who is wielding the energy source. I'd be fine with that, if they established a better personal limit for people such as Luke. Once he hit the magnitude that he has, he should pull a Buddha and transcend into the Force itself.

What did luke do that was so amazing? Moved a dovin Bassel? So what? That doesn't make him the reincarnation of Jesus x 100000000.

Luke has made entire planets invisible, created illusions of whole fleets, manipulated black holes, etc.

And I agree with you, TG. The things that some people have done is ridiculous.

He's Luke fvcking Skywalker. He can do whatever he wants.

Dorsk 88's feat was probably the most impressive TK feat in all of star wars, and it killed him. He moved an ENTER FLEET (i think it was something like 185 Star Destroyers, don't quote me) OUT OF SOLAR SYSTEM, and disabled all of their hyperdrives all at once. That is far more impressive than any other single feat of TK... EVER. anybody have a TK feat that tops it?

That's pretty cool, but he was also being powered-up by the other trainee's.

Nihilus' feat comes to mind, he pulled his flagship and fleet up off of Malachor with TK.

Originally posted by Advent
That's pretty cool, but he was also being powered-up by the other trainee's.

Nihilus' feat comes to mind, he pulled his flagship and fleet up off of Malachor with TK.

Sadly, some people in this forum refuse to acknowledge that...I think that's because it wouldn't make Palpatine look as good, and they'd have to stop masturbating to their Dark Empire copies.

it doesn't say he pulled the fleet... but we could go round and round about that. to be honest, it doesn't say he uses the force to do any such thing. It says he pulled his flagship out of a gravity well. Coulda done it another ship, and if we use Occum's Razor, then we should assume he did, because attributing a force feat for himself on that scale is assuming a lot. (but don't use Occum's Razor, because it annoys me, and often leads to false conclusions....) So lets say he did. Yes, impressive. (the fleet i'll not concede.) But Dorsk moves a fleet out of a solar system. More impressive. YEs, he's channeling others, and it kills him. So my whole point was, which i forgot to make, when i started wondering if there was a more impressive TK... was that it obviously does matter the size of the object. Dorsk reached his absolute limit on how much of the force he could use, and it killed him. He couldn't have moved more, or further, if he had wanted to. So "size matters not" is true in a way, but i think each user has their absolute capacity of the amount of the force they can channel.

I see your point. The whole "size matters not" was his whole reasoning for doing it, right? The feat itself I'd say is probably the best showing we've seen; even if he was powered-up.

As for Nihilus, the funny thing is, I was going to use Occam's razor. But we'll let that slide and ask: since Nihilus was trapped on Malachor, what could he have used to lift the Ravager into orbit? Whatever it was, it had to be done on the ground. I don't see any way for him to actually achieve his goal other than using the Force. What type of ship/machine could do that? This is confirmed by Tobin ("that is a measure of his power", who isn't a liar and even goes so far as to explain a shitload of things in truth (he calls Kreia out on lying, knows intimate details about Nihilus' hunger, etc.)

As for his fleet, there's an interesting quote that comes from Canderous Ordo/Mandalore: "This ship is from Malachor. This Sith Lord bolsters his fleet with ships from that world...", then calls him a scavenger.

This important because it is before Tobin says a word about lifting his fleet. We know that Canderous was at the Battle of Malachor V and he identifies the Ravager and apparently other ships. So this supports Tobin's dialogue and I'd say there's no convincing evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sadly, some people in this forum refuse to acknowledge that...I think that's because it wouldn't make Palpatine look as good, and they'd have to stop masturbating to their Dark Empire copies.

True enough. Your post in Gideon's thread was great, btw. Very well-thought out, nicely done on that. I never even thought about Byss enhancing Sidious before.

I'm bookmarking this for the next time Ivalice claims there isn't any evidence to support Nihilus using the Force to move the Ravager.

Thanks for the knowledge, Advent. And the compliment.

Enyalus is moving up.

You do me proud.

did Tobin quote that Nihilus pulled the whole fleet off the world with the force then? I just wonder how he knew that. (or any of it for that matter, wasn't he on Onduron or whereever it is that you rescue the queen (probably been 3 years for me since i played that last) If he was there, how did he know Nihilus lifted the fleet? Nihilus doesn't seem liek the sit down and chat kind of person really.
in answer to your question: I would assume some kind of tractor beam. since he pulled it out of a gravity well, i would be assuming that he had escaped the planet's surface prior to that: but i would almost be willing to give him the flagship with the force, and then it wouldn't be too much of a stress to say he pulled out the rest, but i would stress it happened one at a time. If it was one at a time, it wouldn't be on the same scale as what happened in the JA trilogy.

Yes, he said that about the fleet. I think the game designers were just trying to tell us what happened through Tobin. I'm not saying that Tobin was there, but consider that he has intimate knowledge about Nihilus and the Force. Insofar that he can explain Nihilus' perception of normal beings, knows exactly how Nihilus' 'hunger' works in detail, and so on.

He should be regarded as trustworthy and reliable in this case, especially because of what Canderous had to say. Whether he pulled them all at once is debatable, I guess...but it's safe to logically conclude Nihilus did simply use the Force for both rather than a tractor beam.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sadly, some people in this forum refuse to acknowledge that...I think that's because it wouldn't make Palpatine look as good, and they'd have to stop masturbating to their Dark Empire copies.

That does not make Palpatine look any less good. I don't think lifting Ravager and a few other ships quite compare to reducing entire star ships to dust. I say it makes Palpatine look even more good, seeing how he is the most powerful sith in history, so if Nihilus can lift a star ship just imagine what Palpatine can do with tk.

Now thinking about it, i am convinced that nihilus did lift the ravager. However, weather it was done with ease or with much difficulty has yet to be known.

But i am still not convinced that he lifted a "fleet" because of several reasons.
1) Why would he want his fleet to be consisted of shitty damaged ships that would get torn apart so easily? I mean he himself is already holding one ship alone, whos holding the other damaged ones?
2) The loading screen stated he hauled the ravager for the sole purpose of escaping so why waste time lifting other ships and spending so much energy?
3)We never see this "fleet"
(If you are referring to the telos IV battle with several other sith warships, note that they look new and had they actually been smashed onto the surface of malachor V or in the gravity well, they would have shown extreme exterior damage and look like the ravager).

So there you go sir enyalus, i have certainly shut up about him not lifting a ship BUT i still have doubts about him lifting a fleet.

Seeing as he did it instantly, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by pointing that out. Even assuming it did strain him, the fact that he was able to withstand the pressure and lift it out of orbit compliments his immense power even more.



I wouldn't exactly say it matters whether or not you are convinced by evidence. Since the evidence speaks for itself (literally). Mandalore was present at the battle and he recognized that the ships were from Malachor V. That alone proves it. It is further made clear by Colonel Tobin, who like I said, is more knowledgeable on the Nihilus and the Force than almost every non-Force sensitive that ever lived.

1) Who said that any of the other ships were damaged beyond the point of repair? Indeed, the only logical conclusion is that he had them repaired for battle. Your third point actually supports that.

2) Mandalore comments that he's a "scavenger". We're also dealing with a guy who can TK a massive ship into orbit, hold it together in hyperspace, and pwn entire worlds; it's safe to assume he didn't have to expend that much energy or time.

The loading screen doesn't say for the "sole" reason. Let's not start making things up now. It also doesn't mention that the Jedi Exile went to the bathroom...I guess since a loading screen didn't say it, it didn't happen.

3) See point 1; this can be explained away by repair, as Nihilus does come into contact with people who could do that.

Originally posted by Advent
Seeing as he did it instantly, I'm not sure what you're trying to get at by pointing that out. Even assuming it did strain him, the fact that he was able to withstand the pressure and lift it out of orbit compliments his immense power even more. Where was it shown that he did it "instantly" and with "relative ease"?




Originally posted by Advent

1) Who said that any of the other ships were damaged beyond the point of repair? Indeed, the only logical conclusion is that he had them repaired for battle. Your third point actually supports that. Just look at the ravager, the ship itself is already beyond a state of repair, now why?

Other than being constantly shot by other ships, it, had been slammed into malachor V's gravity well at full force when the mass shadow generator(along with the planets gravity) was activated, any other smaller ship would had been disintigrated by the sheer force of the impact, so i don't see how those ships would had survived or be in a repairable state.

Originally posted by Advent

2) Mandalore comments that he's a "scavenger". We're also dealing with a guy who can TK a massive ship into orbit, hold it together in hyperspace, and pwn entire worlds; it's safe to assume he didn't have to expend that much energy or time. Comments? What about assumed that nihilus is a scavenger?

And how does this prove that he did it with "not much energy"? Yoda himself could lift mountains in the CW cartoons yet he had strained while trying to stop a pillar from collapsing on anakin and obi wan.

My point is, just because nihilus performed those uber feats, how does that exactly prove he lifted the ship with ease? He didn't pwn a world with TK, neither could he kill the exiles party with TK.

Originally posted by Advent

The loading screen doesn't say for the "sole" reason. Let's not start making things up now. It also doesn't mention that the Jedi Exile went to the bathroom...I guess since a loading screen didn't say it, it didn't happen. I misinterpreted it then, my apologies.
Originally posted by Advent

3) See point 1; this can be explained away by repair, as Nihilus does come into contact with people who could do that. I doubt that those ships could even be repaired, see my first point, besides there were still sith warships that survived the jedi civil war and the the battle of malachor, not every ship was destroyed so i don't see why those weren't the ships at the battle of telos IV.

There is also the possibility that his "fleet" could even consist of the squadron of sith fighters swirling around his ship

Sorry for double post.


If he DID lift the fleet(which would be the same time as him lifting the ravager presumably), who was there at that particular time to repair the ships he lifted? I don't recall enough manpower alive on malachor V after the battle to repair any ships that nihilus supposidly lifted.

OR his fleet could have consisted of ships that orbited malachor V (watch the malachor V arrival or listen to kreia stating there are working ships in orbit) that were not caught by the MSG and smashed to pieces on the planet surfaces, i see another possibility that he and his troup of goons scavanged what ever ship that was orbiting the planet(the repairable and usable ones at least) AFTER nihilus gets enough manpower (which would be much later after lifting the ravager).

^ This would be substantiated by him being labelled a "scavenger" by mandalore.

Very very sorry for triple posting.

<<<< is extremely frustrated that i contradicted myself and didn't edit my posts because of sheer idiocy, now i have to triple post.

Ok advent please ignore the part where i said "Comments? What about assumed that nihilus is a scavenger? " in my first post.

Every other feat of TK ever displayed was pretty much instantly, and didn't take hours or days at a time to perform. This should follow suit. With the 'relative ease' part...does it matter? 99% of everyone else in the Mythos wouldn't be able to pull it off at all. So IMO its irrelevant.



No, it could have easily been repaired. Nihilus chose not to, as I think it fit his personality. It was more like a status symbol. The Ravager was very distinct. Everyone knew what it looked like.



Proof of this? We know smaller ships were pulled down to Malachor's surface and torn apart, because pieces of the ships were found in the earth. That could've been from impact. Suppose the gravity well was activated, all the ships were pulled down and crushed, but Nihilus used his TK to keep them levitating above the surface so there wasn't an impact. Very possible.



The feats in the cartoon and in TFU are purposely exaggerated. KOTOR II is not. Moreover, he could have killed the Exile's party with utter ease. He put all three in Force Stasis immediately and could have ran each of them through with his lightsaber or whatever. He didn't want to kill Visas, and Mandalore was insignificant. He wanted to drain the Exile and could not, due to her nature.



He doesn't have to repair the fleet's ships immediately. He holds the Ravager together with his raw power. The rest of the ships in his fleet are smaller, and thus, he might have held them together as well until they went back to Onderon.

Moreover, we have three credible sources confirming he lifted the fleet along with his capital ship. Tobin, Canderous, and Mandalore - the latter two were actually present at the Battle of Malachor...and when does a Mandalorian ever lie?

If he does lift the entire fleet plus his capital ship from the gravity well, that's gotta be considered a much higher TK feat than Luke's manipulation of one dovin basil or Kyp's 4-5. *nod*

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, he said that about the fleet. I think the game designers were just trying to tell us what happened through Tobin. I'm not saying that Tobin was there, but consider that he has intimate knowledge about Nihilus and the Force. Insofar that he can explain Nihilus' perception of normal beings, knows exactly how Nihilus' 'hunger' works in detail, and so on.

He should be regarded as trustworthy and reliable in this case, especially because of what Canderous had to say. Whether he pulled them all at once is debatable, I guess...but it's safe to logically conclude Nihilus did simply use the Force for both rather than a tractor beam.

Understanding the premise that I have never come close to beating that damn game, allow me to get this straight: you're telling us that you are suggesting that we ought to take the word of an individual who has been mentally corrupted and held in thrall by Nihilus as an objective indicator of his power? If that is the case, then are we to allow Kreia's fellating statements regarding Revan to be considered the gospel? Or the New Essential Chronology's statement regarding Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord ever (stronger, then, than Nihilus) by the prequel trilogy? Since, clearly, they are also trying to deliver exposition and narrative through the story without a Patented Big Booming Voice speaking.

I'm not mocking, but I'm curious. Because it seems to me, if you allow one, you're obligated to allow them all.

Originally posted by Gideon
Understanding the premise that I have never come close to beating that damn game, allow me to get this straight: you're telling us that you are suggesting that we ought to take the word of an individual who has been mentally corrupted and held in thrall by Nihilus as an objective indicator of his power? If that is the case, then are we to allow Kreia's fellating statements regarding Revan to be considered the gospel? Or the New Essential Chronology's statement regarding Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord ever (stronger, then, than Nihilus) by the prequel trilogy? Since, clearly, they are also trying to deliver exposition and narrative through the story without a Patented Big Booming Voice speaking.

I'm not mocking, but I'm curious. Because it seems to me, if you allow one, you're obligated to allow them all. This is interesting, because most of you already take the in-universe NEC as complete and irrefutable canon.

Originally posted by Faunus
This is interesting, because most of you already take the in-universe NEC as complete and irrefutable canon.

Most of us do not. And those of us who do are morons. You will not see me hurl that quote out there by itself as an objective indicator of the Emperor's ability. Therein lies my argument, Faunus, as it has always been. When it comes to quotes, Nebaris or Nai might bring one or two. I bring an army.

You bring, like, seven.

*faced*

Originally posted by Faunus
You bring, like, seven.

*faced*

But an army of seven.

Seven's not an army, toolshed.

God, people are so stupid in Kentucky. *insert bad joke about chicken here*

Originally posted by Faunus
Seven's not an army, toolshed.

God, people are so stupid in Kentucky. *insert bad joke about chicken here*

Nuh-uh. The US Army says that there is such a thing as an "Army of One." Logic dictates that I can have an all powerful Army of Seven.

...What? That doesn't make much of any sense, Gideon. That's like saying we should allow anyone who has an opinion be a trusted witness in a murder trial and take what they say as accurate. In the case of the NEC--you have a Force sensitive that could never accurately gauge power of the Sith Lords of old in comparison to Palpatine; especially considering a millenia of Sith history is largely unexplored.

Kreia's remarks are also notoriously ambiguous and she is an established liar. This isn't the case with Colonel Tobin at all. In fact, Tobin actually calls her out on lying and scolds the Exile for being untruthful at one point.

That said, it's clear that Tobin is not stating an in-universe opinion, but an in-universe fact--one that is supported by an out-of-universe source. He knew where the Ravager came from, but he was wrong about his fleet? That's illogical at best, especially since Canderous was present at the Battle of Malachor V and is the Exile's party member (and trusted her enough to reveal his true identity, etc.) and confirms that his fleet consisted of ships from the planet. Commenting on this despite the fact Tobin never uttered a word about the whole fleet ordeal. All the evidence points to Tobin being 100% correct and trustworthy enough on that particular issue.

Well, this isn't the first time I've felt like an idiot on the EU Forum.

I knew that Canderous became Mandalore at some point, I just got the when of the matter mixed up. My bad.

Remember: this is a discussion, not a debate. I am ignorant of the game and am merely probing for details.

Originally posted by Advent
...What? That doesn't make much of any sense, Gideon. That's like saying we should allow anyone who has an opinion be a trusted witness in a murder trial and take what they say as accurate. In the case of the NEC--you have a Force sensitive that could never accurately gauge power of the Sith Lords of old in comparison to Palpatine; especially considering a millenia of Sith history is largely unexplored.

It does make sense. From the looks of it, you were wanting us to except Tobin's testimony on the fact that he was clearly being used as a conduit by the game designers to give the audience exposition regarding Nihilus's power -- something that all in universe thoughts and documentations are used to do -- to convey the thoughts of the author regarding a person or event, but on a personal level. That makes him no greater a source than Kreia or tNEC.



Notoriously ambiguous? How so? And she is fallible solely because of her status as a liar? Tobin is not? And how do you know for certain? The fact that he "calls her out" for lying is irrelevant; Palpatine exploits and brings to light the deception of the Jedi Council to Anakin. Does that make him an honest man?



But that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is you suggesting that Tobin's validity as a source be based (partially or otherwise) on the fact that he's clearly trying to convey the thoughts of the game designers, that he hasn't been proven to be a liar, and that he possesses intimate knowledge of Nihilus's workings.

Well, tNEC accounts for the first: it's a chronology given as an in-universe source for the same reason. Second, it hasn't proven to be blatantly dishonest or the intent of lying. Third, it possesses immensely intimate knowledge about events -- pertaining to the Emperor's motives, thoughts, and schemes. Lastly, as an in-universe source, it is the recording of a historical council of a galactic hyperpower. Far, far, far greater than the beliefs of one broken, semi-corrupted man.

The conclusion being: if those are your qualifications for Tobin's validity, there are other sources who meet them in excess.

Originally posted by Enyalus


Every other feat of TK ever displayed was pretty much instantly, and didn't take hours or days at a time to perform. This should follow suit. With the 'relative ease' part...does it matter? 99% of everyone else in the Mythos wouldn't be able to pull it off at all. So IMO its irrelevant.



No, it could have easily been repaired. Nihilus chose not to, as I think it fit his personality. It was more like a status symbol. The Ravager was very distinct. Everyone knew what it looked like.



Proof of this? We know smaller ships were pulled down to Malachor's surface and torn apart, because pieces of the ships were found in the earth. That could've been from impact. Suppose the gravity well was activated, all the ships were pulled down and crushed, but Nihilus used his TK to keep them levitating above the surface so there wasn't an impact. Very possible.



The feats in the cartoon and in TFU are purposely exaggerated. KOTOR II is not. Moreover, he could have killed the Exile's party with utter ease. He put all three in Force Stasis immediately and could have ran each of them through with his lightsaber or whatever. He didn't want to kill Visas, and Mandalore was insignificant. He wanted to drain the Exile and could not, due to her nature.



He doesn't have to repair the fleet's ships immediately. He holds the Ravager together with his raw power. The rest of the ships in his fleet are smaller, and thus, he might have held them together as well until they went back to Onderon.

Moreover, we have three credible sources confirming he lifted the fleet along with his capital ship. Tobin, Canderous, and Mandalore - the latter two were actually present at the Battle of Malachor...and when does a Mandalorian ever lie?

If he does lift the entire fleet plus his capital ship from the gravity well, that's gotta be considered a much higher TK feat than Luke's manipulation of one dovin basil or Kyp's 4-5. *nod* I'll respond to this later, once again i'll concede the "he pulled the ship with ease part-Not".

Originally posted by Gideon
It does make sense. From the looks of it, you were wanting us to except Tobin's testimony on the fact that he was clearly being used as a conduit by the game designers to give the audience exposition regarding Nihilus's power -- something that all in universe thoughts and documentations are used to do -- to convey the thoughts of the author regarding a person or event, but on a personal level. That makes him no greater a source than Kreia or tNEC.

Again, what? If you read the previous page, you'd see I didn't say anything about the game designers intent. In my initial reply, you can see that the devs didn't impact my conclusion. I was just explaining that characters (in this case, Tobin) didn't say things like that for the sake of saying them to truejedi, essentially I was rehashing what you just said into simpler terms. Never did I mention that it held a relevance to my argument.



Keeping in mind that you haven't beat KOTOR2, I would still assume you've escaped Peragus; the newb level. If you recall, when you talk to Atton for the first time after talking to Kreia, you both discuss how cryptic she is. This is only the beginning, I don't think I could count the number of times she's extremely vague and leaves things open to interpretation.

"Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force." Translation: notoriously ambiguous. One of many.



No, there's several reasons actually. I listed one right before I called her a liar. What she says about Revan is certainly open for interpretation and it is her personal view on Revan. Otherwise known as an "opinion". What Tobin said was a statement of fact from an in-universe standpoint, Canderous and the loading screen confirm this. And to question whether or not he is honest would just be daft. Being that two valid sources back up Tobin, it's indication that he is correct.

Furthermore, Kreia being a liar is important insofar that she has an established record of being dishonest in the past. Which suggests that she may not be completely truthful in every instance. Tobin has no such record.

As for Palpatine, he also had a purpose to lie. Tobin did not. You're continually using examples that are incomparable, invalid.



This isn't a debate, but that'd quite clearly be a strawman. I'm not going to fully address it, but I will reinforce the point: the devs are completely irrelevant to my point, lmao. Take away that one sentence and what's left? Everything is still standing. Since my conclusion doesn't rely on it at all, nor am I using it as a basis for assuming anything.



I'm wondering whether or not you even read or understood what I wrote. Not to be insulting, but this is far from the complexity of other issues you've dealt with before.

Not a single person that was alive during the period the NEC was written witnessed Exar Kun's power. Or Bane's. Or Sith Lords X, Y, and Z. Even if they were, we would be assuming that historian A could feel XYZs full power in the Force and could compare it to Palpatine's.

We would also be assuming that historian A felt Sith who never revealed themselves (post-Bane, pre-Sidious). These are Sith no one knew about. It doesn't work out because historian A--or Voren Na'al here--doesn't have all the necessary information to make such an absolute assessment.



My qualifications are:

- Not ambiguous.
- Not opinion.
- Supporting out-of-universe source or objective in-universe source (or both, like in this case).

There are about a million different facts that come primarily from a character. But that is the difference: facts. Kreia and Voren Na'al are giving in-universe opinions, that can't be supported by the information available, etc. What Tobin says is an in-universe fact. Much like a random PT Jedi stating Coruscant is the location of the Jedi Temple or that Yoda is the Grandmaster of the Order.

I'm not saying that Kreia or Voren would be incorrect in every word that comes out of their mouths, but certain statements like the ones you provided would certainly be considered fallible. Along with any other in-universe opinion.

Just noting one tiny thing: Tobin is a rebel and a traitor...usually that might require SOME dishonesty lest he give the game away to the people he means to ovethrow.

Kinda neutral here, just though I'd say.

I'll let the one-sentence record point slide then since that's actually valid, but it doesn't affect anything in the least bit. Damn you, Lightsnake.

Originally posted by Advent
This isn't a debate, but that'd quite clearly be a strawman

Let me elaborate: it doesn't make sense for you to continually question "you're using x as a basis" when you don't include all the facts. You're picking and choosing points that support the point. Some may mean nothing on their own, of course, but compounded together it gives my conclusion more weight to it. As in, it gives less and less reason to question otherwise (Tobin's non-sensitivity has been brought into play quite often by members of the forum who oppose/d the idea entirely).

So, if your point was that as stand alone points, x number of people fit them. Then I'd just say "WTF, I know."

I'll concede that, then. This, in particular, cleared it up, thank you:



However:

Originally posted by Advent
I'll let the one-sentence record point slide then since that's actually valid, but it doesn't affect anything in the least bit. Damn you, Lightsnake.

It does affect this in "the least bit." The only saving grace is that Tobin is corroborated by Mandalore. The proposed part of your argument that Tobin is to be trusted due to the fact that he isn't a proven liar has lost all tangibility.

Semantics are nice, aren't they. Your welcome though. And finish KOTOR2. Now.

Originally posted by Advent
I'll let the one-sentence record point slide then since that's actually valid, but it doesn't affect anything in the least bit. Damn you, Lightsnake.
Just undermining you one tiny at a time, love!

Originally posted by Advent
Semantics are nice, aren't they.

Indeed. It allows me to slowly destroy the reputation of Darth Nihilus, one argument at a time. Everything is proceeding as I have forseen...



I would continue down the grammar/semantic path and correct your mistake ("you're welcome", but I'm afraid you'll stab me.



Not quite so menacing without the leather and chains!

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed. It allows me to slowly destroy the reputation of Darth Nihilus, one argument at a time. Everything is proceeding as I have forseen...You're weird.

Originally posted by Faunus
You're weird.

SILENCE, YOU FOOL! I AM ALL POWERFUL!

Originally posted by Gideon
SILENCE, YOU FOOL! I AM ALL POWERFUL!

It's true. Or, at least, it will have been true.

(Take that proper application of past and future tense(s)!)

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
I'll respond to this later, once again i'll concede the "he pulled the ship with ease part-Not". *Sigh* Considering the massive work load that i have currently, i might not be able to respond to this anytime soon or worse, i might just have to let it slide and finish what i was commited to do.

Originally posted by Gideon
SILENCE, YOU FOOL! I AM ALL POWERFUL!


bash

Gideon has failed. His power is gone.

^That thing^ proves it.

Originally posted by Faunus
Gideon has failed. His power is gone.

^That thing^ proves it.

YOUR MOM SIR.

Why are there no "your dad" jokes? Do people just not give a shit about their fathers?

Originally posted by Faunus
Why are there no "your dad" jokes? Do people just not give a shit about their fathers?

Nah. They're very popular in the South. Guys use 'your mom' jokes. Girls here use 'your dad' jokes.

I can safely say that I've never heard such a thing out loud. Ever.

The things I miss being a New Yorker...

Even here in the Midwest girls say your dad jokes.

Originally posted by Faunus
I can safely say that I've never heard such a thing out loud. Ever.

The things I miss being a New Yorker...

Yankees or Mets?