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This thread was inspired by recent, as well as past, debates involving what a given character is capable of.

In debates, on-panel feats are of obvious value in pointing out what a character can do. The only real drawback is the posting of PIS moments, which can be a tough call.

On the other hand: there are some characters -- generally those with open powersets -- where inferring abilities never actually shown (or rarely shown) makes sense when logically reasoned from other (more-consistent) on-panel feats.

Should inferred abilities be allowed in debates? Should feats be restricted to those purely on-panel? And if so, what is the criteria for judging whether something is PIS or not? Doesn't this imply a certain amount of inferential reasoning to weed out PIS (ie, is it not a subjective call)? And if this type of inferential reasoning is allowed, then why not such reasoning for inferring unseen/rarely seen abilities, as long as they are logically deduced?

I'm curious where most members stand.

on panel statements will occasionally allow people to, either bring their personal opinion into things, and/or guesstimate what they think a character should be capable of, by applying their opinion to a given statement. that just has 'fail' written all over it imo. that being said, on panel feats are quite incontrovertible, due to the fact that we as readers are actually seeing a demonstration of power/ability from said character. this leaves us with no real interpretation to come up with.

imo, that's why on panel feats always trump on panel statements. always.

I think as long as it is logical, and well within the characters powerset, there should be no reason why an inferred ability should not be allowed.

Meh, but sometimes obscure abilities such as "reactive evolution" leaves a characters true abilities up as a matter of a particular members interpretation.

Darwin for example should be able to do anything i;e flight, if no edible food is available transmutation or evolve to the point where he doesn't require it, self-regeneration, invulnerablility, telepathy, and telekinesis dependent upon the situation. And although it's implied that he could potentially do these things there outta his powerset until the feats are actually performed.

I'd just rather see a character do something as opposed to it being said he has the ability to do it. Logan can say all day that he's the best there is, but until i actually see it i don't believe it

I believe it should be addressed on a case - by - case basis

Originally posted by Galan007
on panel statements will occasionally allow people to, either bring their personal opinion into things, and/or guesstimate what they think a character should be capable of, by applying their opinion to a given statement. that just has 'fail' written all over it imo. that being said, on panel feats are quite incontrovertible, due to the fact that we as readers are actually seeing a demonstration of power/ability from said character. this leaves us with no real interpretation to come up with.

imo, that's why on panel feats always trump on panel statements. always. All else being equal, I would agree. Eg, Spider-Man stating Sentry stalemated Galactus doesn't equal Sentry actually doing it. On the other hand, if Sentry had stalemated, say, Aegis and Tenegrous, then it would be more logical to assume that Spider-Man's statement would be somewhat accurate.

But I'm talking more about something like this: currently in the Wonder Woman vs Silver Surfer in h2h thread, there seems to be this controversy: WW has demonstrated time and time again her incredible hand speed at blocking multi-vector, high-speed attacks. Having demonstrated such sensorimotor fleetness, wouldn't it be logical to assume she could strike with equal fleetness, even if this has never/rarely been shown on-panel? Another example would be the Surfer, with the now famous flightspeed = or doesn't = combatspeed argument (I won't repeat it here; we all know the points and counterpoints raised).

And what about the Really Famous Panther-SS Armbar, or the Most Famous Of All, Batkick (against Hulk, against Cap Marvel)? These are on-panel feats, yet most of us (I think) have decided these are PIS. Why? What reasoning applies? Much of it seems inferential, based on what we know of these characters and their powersets.

When is inferential reasoning on what a character can do (or shouldn't be able to do) legit? Is an on-panel feat a necessary starting point, or can logic, at times, fill in the gaps (just as logic, at times, determines what is or isn't PIS)?

Originally posted by Sin I AM
I'd just rather see a character do something as opposed to it being said he has the ability to do it. Logan can say all day that he's the best there is, but until i actually see it i don't believe it

Ok, let's use the rulk vs supes debate as an example. Someone wanted a feat of supes BFR'ing a brick comparable to rulk. Do you really need to see superman bfr someone like rulk to know that he has the strength to do so. He has lifted and thrown much heavier things, so is it wrong to assume he can throw rulk? I would say no.

When you have a medium like comics that are too often plot driven action drivel, passed off from writer to writer and from point of view to point of view, there's gonna be a great amount of inconsistency. We all know that, and so we all know that characters have to be judged (for the most part) based on their average ability, not their best ability shown.

For feats vs. statements, feats should almost always win... if there's a feat that's grossly disproportionate to the characters ability (see: Surfer Armbar), then it still stands just like any other feat to be discredited. But it's generally easier to discredit statements than feats, simply because so many writers are prone to hyperbole. What sounds good sells books better than what's accurate according to a decade-old issue of a completely different comic.

As for logical ability... it's a case by case scenario. There are areas in comics that fluctuate far more than others, and so are areas that quickly become supposition with more to counter than to support.

Like speed... Surfer could be written to have FTL reflexes. But we've seen him get hit time after time by things ridiculously slower than light... the only real solution is to say that since we know nothing about using those sorts of powers, it's really just a baseless guessing game to say that he can move at any speed that isn't supported on panel with feats.

At the same time, there are characters like Sersi and Firestorm that we can probably infer can turn anything into anything else, provided they know the math behind it (at least, for Firestorm). There's not a lot to counter this, and tons to support it, and it's not something that is routinely overlooked by writers like speed is.

Originally posted by Cavalier
When you have a medium like comics that are too often plot driven action drivel, passed off from writer to writer and from point of view to point of view, there's gonna be a great amount of inconsistency. We all know that, and so we all know that characters have to be judged (for the most part) based on their average ability, not their best ability shown.

For feats vs. statements, feats should almost always win... if there's a feat that's grossly disproportionate to the characters ability (see: Surfer Armbar), then it still stands just like any other feat to be discredited. But it's generally easier to discredit statements than feats, simply because so many writers are prone to hyperbole. What sounds good sells books better than what's accurate according to a decade-old issue of a completely different comic.

As for logical ability... it's a case by case scenario. There are areas in comics that fluctuate far more than others, and so are areas that quickly become supposition with more to counter than to support.

Like speed... Surfer could be written to have FTL reflexes. But we've seen him get hit time after time by things ridiculously slower than light... the only real solution is to say that since we know nothing about using those sorts of powers, it's really just a baseless guessing game to say that he can move at any speed that isn't supported on panel with feats.

At the same time, there are characters like Sersi and Firestorm that we can probably infer can turn anything into anything else, provided they know the math behind it (at least, for Firestorm). There's not a lot to counter this, and tons to support it, and it's not something that is routinely overlooked by writers like speed is.

I agree, but surfer DOES have on panel FTL feats. So it isn't baseless to say he has FTL speed and reflexes. If he is maneuvering at FTl, he HAS to have FTL reflexes, there is not other logical explanation, IMO.

Originally posted by snyper1982
I agree, but surfer DOES have on panel FTL feats. So it isn't baseless to say he has FTL speed and reflexes. If he is maneuvering at FTl, he HAS to have FTL reflexes, there is not other logical explanation, IMO. And yet, we've seen him get hit by punches, bricks, energy blasts and more.

For all we know, the power cosmic allows him to acquire ZOMG reaction speed only with 100% focus while traveling at FTL speeds in a fairly straight line on his board.

Normally, suggesting something like that would be ridiculous... but when we've seen characters with supposedly FTL reflexes get trumped so many times by objects that should be standing still to them...

Originally posted by snyper1982
I agree, but surfer DOES have on panel FTL feats. So it isn't baseless to say he has FTL speed and reflexes. If he is maneuvering at FTl, he HAS to have FTL reflexes, there is not other logical explanation, IMO.

But why take a leap in judgement and assume as opposed to knowing for a fact.

Originally posted by Cavalier
And yet, we've seen him get hit by punches, bricks, energy blasts and more.

For all we know, the power cosmic allows him to acquire ZOMG reaction speed only with 100% focus while traveling at FTL speeds in a fairly straight line on his board.

Normally, suggesting something like that would be ridiculous... but when we've seen characters with supposedly FTL reflexes get trumped so many times by objects that should be standing still to them...

So I guess the Flash doesn't have FTL reaction time either seeing as how he is faster than ohhhh, basically everyone, yet he still get's tagged in his stories.

Originally posted by snyper1982
So I guess the Flash doesn't have FTL reaction time either seeing as how he is faster than ohhhh, basically everyone, yet he still get's tagged in his stories.
Flash gets tagged for all kinds of reasons. He's distracted protecting innocents, he can't run too fast or he risk killing people with burning air and sonic booms, he is fighting multiple opponents who are used to fighting him and know how to take him down.

Originally posted by snyper1982
So I guess the Flash doesn't have FTL reaction time either seeing as how he is faster than ohhhh, basically everyone, yet he still get's tagged in his stories. But there's far more to support Flash's reflexes, than Surfer's.

Flash has feats for his reflexes that make it more than supposition based on his travel feats.

And I'm not debating it out in this thread.

Originally posted by The Great Galen
But why take a leap in judgement and assume as opposed to knowing for a fact.

I don't consider it a leap. I consider it perfectly logical to assume that superman could lift 100,000,000 people all at once, even though it hasn't been shown on panel. Same thing here with the surfer.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Flash gets tagged for all kinds of reasons. He's distracted protecting innocents, he can't run too fast or he risk killing people with burning air and sonic booms, he is fighting multiple opponents who are used to fighting him and know how to take him down.


Oh and NONE of those apply to surfer? RIIIGGGGHHHHHTTTTT...

Originally posted by snyper1982
I don't consider it a leap. I consider it perfectly logical to assume that superman could lift 100,000,000 people all at once, even though it hasn't been shown on panel. Same thing here with the surfer.

actually no he couldn't because he couldn't hold all those people

Guys, I'm going to be addressing this point and a few other points about rules, power sets, panel showings, being in character, etc. I hope to send out PMs to posters I know, who have been here a good while and our best and brightest. I also may pin a thread to discuss everything. Darthgoober made a similar thread a few months back and I think we need to address some of these points.

Originally posted by jalek moye
actually no he couldn't because he couldn't hold all those people

I never said he would pick them all up in his arms did I? He could pick up a continent or something with them on it... Jeez.

Originally posted by snyper1982
I agree, but surfer DOES have on panel FTL feats. So it isn't baseless to say he has FTL speed and reflexes. If he is maneuvering at FTl, he HAS to have FTL reflexes, there is not other logical explanation, IMO. I can maneuver my car at 80 mph. But I can't move my hands or legs that fast. traveling speed and reaction times seem to be more linear while reaction times based upon combat seem to be something different.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I can maneuver my car at 80 mph. But I can't move my hands or legs that fast. traveling speed and reaction times seem to be more linear while reaction times based upon combat seem to be something different.


That is just a horrible analogy.

Originally posted by snyper1982
That is just a horrible analogy. actually it's not. Guys who fly planes consistantly show that they can react and maneuver planes at 1500 mph. More in fighter jets. They can't react that fast in a running situation or in a boxing match. All reactions are not created equal and cannot thus be applied equally. Surfer has great space reaction speeds. And his energy reactions speeds are the best. But in hand to hand, he isn't even in the top 100.

Originally posted by fangirl101
actually it's not. Guys who fly planes consistantly show that they can react and maneuver planes at 1500 mph. More in fighter jets. They can't react that fast in a running situation or in a boxing match. All reactions are not created equal and cannot thus be applied equally. Surfer has great space reaction speeds. And his energy reactions speeds are the best. But in hand to hand, he isn't even in the top 100.

Actually it is, because surfer isn't flying a plane or driving a car.

Originally posted by snyper1982
Actually it is, because surfer isn't flying a plane or driving a car.
No. He's driving a surf board.

Originally posted by Badabing
Guys, I'm going to be addressing this point and a few other points about rules, power sets, panel showings, being in character, etc. I hope to send out PMs to posters I know, who have been here a good while and our best and brightest. I also may pin a thread to discuss everything. Darthgoober made a similar thread a few months back and I think we need to address some of these points.

This forum badly needs this to be done.

Originally posted by fangirl101
No. He's driving a surf board.

Look. I already gave my reasoning behind my point of view. Your not going to change my opinion... So stop trying. I am saying that until you prove to me that he looses his speed off the board, you have not shown me anything.

Originally posted by snyper1982
Look. I already gave my reasoning behind my point of view. Your not going to change my opinion... So stop trying. I am saying that until you prove to me that he looses his speed off the board, you have not shown me anything.
No you have nothing. Show me surfer doing anything speed wise such as running, using his hands, or any of that. Magneto can fly fast. So does that mean now that he has super hand speed. According to you it does. Cuz magneto can put together complex machines in seconds. I guess he has super speed too.

Originally posted by fangirl101
No you have nothing. Show me surfer doing anything speed wise such as running, using his hands, or any of that. Magneto can fly fast. So does that mean now that he has super hand speed. According to you it does. Cuz magneto can put together complex machines in seconds. I guess he has super speed too.


Yawnnnn......

Originally posted by snyper1982
Yawnnnn......
I guess that means I pwned you and you have no response.

lol she's baiting you, but i see the point fangirl is getting at

Originally posted by fangirl101
No. He's driving a surf board. The board is also part of him, he riding his dick...

its not separate item and himself, they are both part of each other.

Originally posted by fangirl101
I guess that means I pwned you and you have no response.


Yeah. That's what it means. Seeing as you have yet to prove that surfer even looses his speed when he is not on his board, I don't HAVE to prove he can run fast, because we already know surfer can move FTL. Again, the burden of proof is on you to back up your claim that surfer looses his speed.

Originally posted by snyper1982
Yeah. That's what it means. Seeing as you have yet to prove that surfer even looses his speed when he is not on his board, I don't HAVE to prove he can run fast, because we already know surfer can move FTL. Again, the burden of proof is on you to back up your claim that surfer looses his speed. Originally posted by Cavalier
It's irrational to assume that a character that normally stands on a moving object moves just as fast without it.

We don't just assume that.

Which means that the burden of proof is on you.

Surfer moves the board... There is also no reason to think a Herald cannot fly under his own power like, well every other herald can... Power cosmic allows him to fly, not the board. He can remake and reshape the board at will because it is an extension of him.

On panel feats>Suggested core power sets IMO.

I try to use both, but in the end, On panel feats are the most tangible material we have.

Originally posted by snyper1982
Surfer moves the board... There is also no reason to think a Herald cannot fly under his own power like, well every other herald can... Power cosmic allows him to fly, not the board. He can remake and reshape the board at will because it is an extension of him. So once again, you've only got supposition that he can move just as fast without the board?

Once again you've tried and failed to dodge the burden of proof?

Kthx

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
On panel feats>Suggested core power sets IMO.

I try to use both, but in the end, On panel feats are the most tangible material we have.

Agreed

Speed has many aspects.

The Flash has consistently been shown to search every surface within a populated city within a second. He is also on record reading through complete sets of encyclopedia's within a heartbeat.

Flash's reflexes are legend DC have created the Speedforce to back up Flash's extreme reflexes.

In Marvel Surfer has enhanced vision/cosmic awareness enabling him to see every surface within a city Marvel have not equipped Surfer with the "combat" speed essential for such a task. Surfer is simply not capable of leafing through 26 encyclopedia's and mouthing every word within a heartbeat.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
On panel feats>Suggested core power sets IMO.

I try to use both, but in the end, On panel feats are the most tangible material we have.

Disagree

on these forums some members will have for example read over 2000 in canon Ironman feats

Some members may have read 600 or less Ironman canon and non canon feats

more experienced posters join a debate featuring a character they have followed for a long time.

Using Knowsbleed's 'On panel feats>Suggested core power sets IMO' Formula members with slightly less experience with the character will refer to the lesser amount of on panel feats they have personally wittnessed to dispute what they perceive as an inferred powerset.