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Yes, I, Kovacs86, the artist formerly known as Knightfall93, confess that I was wrong. I did several times criticise the Dark Knight Returns very, very strongly. However, having decided to reread the graphic novel with an open mind, several years later, I actually loved it. No, it's not the greatest graphic novel of all time; it's not even the best Batman comic or even Miller's best (Daredevil: Born Again is superior, as is Batman: Year One), in my opinion, but I confess, I loved it.
I hang my head in shame...

Of course you were.

I personally believe that The Dark Knight Returns is awfully overrated. It's a good book, but it's far from the best Batman comic ever. Even in the last ten years, there were at the very least two Batman comics superior to it- Hush and Long Halloween (didn't get to reading Dark Victory. Yet.).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I personally believe that The Dark Knight Returns is awfully overrated. It's a good book, but it's far from the best Batman comic ever. Even in the last ten years, there were at the very least two Batman comics superior to it- Hush and Long Halloween (didn't get to reading Dark Victory. Yet.).

A) Yes, it's overrated. But not wildly so.

B) Hush was alright. It certainly was no DKR. The story was certainly nothing special.

C) The Long Halloween's more than ten years old, I believe. Also, I would hate to say which of the two I prefer. DKR is, however, considerably better than Dark Victory, which was only alright.

D) If I were to actually choose any Batman comic that's better, the only one I would definitely say is superior is Miller's other work, Year One.So either way, Miller > Loeb. Though, to be fair, they've both been sucking for a while now (see: All Star Batman for Miller, Ultimates 3 for Loeb).

Originally posted by Kovacs86
A) Yes, it's overrated. But not wildly so.

Hmm...? I think it's 'okay'. The only part I really like about it was Batman vs. The Joker.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
B) Hush was alright. It certainly was no DKR. The story was certainly nothing special.

The 'mystery' was hella easy, but I loved the story, mainly because of the amazing art and it being so deliciously readable. I loved Catwoman in it, too. I wouldn't say it's the best Batman book ever, but it's an awesome comic.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
C) The Long Halloween's more than ten years old, I believe. Also, I would hate to say which of the two I prefer. DKR is, however, considerably better than Dark Victory, which was only alright.

Well, I liked Long Halloween a lot better than DKR, personally. The art isn't very good, but I liked how it felt so much more like a crime drama than your average superhero comic, for example. I believe it accomplished that better than DKR.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
D) If I were to actually choose any Batman comic that's better, the only one I would definitely say is superior is Miller's other work, Year One.So either way, Miller > Loeb. Though, to be fair, they've both been sucking for a while now (see: All Star Batman for Miller, Ultimates 3 for Loeb).

Long Halloween, Hush, Killing Joke, Year One, maybe Arkham Asylum are all above it, in my opinion. I could probably list more if I could think of them at the moment.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hmm...? I think it's 'okay'. The only part I really like about it was Batman vs. The Joker.

Did you not like the build-up to Batman's return, and then his return itself? It was very well written.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The 'mystery' was hella easy, but I loved the story, mainly because of the amazing art and it being so deliciously readable. I loved Catwoman in it, too. I wouldn't say it's the best Batman book ever, but it's an awesome comic.

I disagree that Hush was awesome. It was an OK story with brilliant art. I tend to rate art as a distant second to story in a comic, and DKR's art was alright, not enough to ruin a good story.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, I liked Long Halloween a lot better than DKR, personally. The art isn't very good, but I liked how it felt so much more like a crime drama than your average superhero comic, for example. I believe it accomplished that better than DKR.

What on Earth was wrong with the Long Halloween art? Sale's great!




Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Long Halloween, Hush, Killing Joke, Year One, maybe Arkham Asylum are all above it, in my opinion. I could probably list more if I could think of them at the moment.

The Long Halloween I understand, though I think DKR edges it because it was more original, for me. Loeb just took what Miller did in Year One and continued that story in Long Halloween. DKR was something special, at the time.
The Killing Joke is extremely good, but horribly short, and nothing on Moore's other work. That, I think, is overrated, though good, nonetheless. DKR wins against this because of it having a more satisfying storyline.
I've already said I prefer Year One, and I've never read Arkham Asylum.

However, I do think that those who claim DKR to be the greatest comic of all time are rather pushing it. It just can't rival, in my opinion, the complexity of Watchmen, in any respect. Nothing can, in the comics medium, I believe.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Did you not like the build-up to Batman's return, and then his return itself? It was very well written.

It was pretty cool, come to think of it. I suppose if I had to choose my main problem, it's the mutant gang storyline. I really, really didn't like it. I'm not sure I can explain why, though. Maybe I need to read DKR again. I'm suddenly starting to feel like it may be awesome if I read it again.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
I disagree that Hush was awesome. It was an OK story with brilliant art. I tend to rate art as a distant second to story in a comic, and DKR's art was alright, not enough to ruin a good story.

Art is important, certainly. Second to a good story, of course- and I found Hush's story to be incredible. Of course, art always does help. Hush's primary strengths are it's excellent storytelling quality (I was constantly in suspense and waiting to read more, which is more than I can say for DKR), the compelling Catwoman/Batman dynamic, the general power of the characters, and, of course, its art. The mystery? Sub-par. But Hush is an incredible character.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
What on Earth was wrong with the Long Halloween art? Sale's great!

While I can appreciate that art, it feels very, I dunno, kind of overly simplistic for me. I prefer complex art.







Originally posted by Kovacs86
The Long Halloween I understand, though I think DKR edges it because it was more original, for me. Loeb just took what Miller did in Year One and continued that story in Long Halloween. DKR was something special, at the time.

It was, and now, bloody hell, I can't wait to read it again. Perhaps I missed something when I originally read it, lol.

Long Halloween wins because it is both a superb read, an excellent noir-styled crime drama, a fascinating mystery. It also allows Batman to fight both 'freaks' and the more real-life mob, which is one of the greatest strengths of Nolan's franchise.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
The Killing Joke is extremely good, but horribly short, and nothing on Moore's other work. That, I think, is overrated, though good, nonetheless. DKR wins against this because of it having a more satisfying storyline.

I think the Killing Joke is awesome because it explains the relationship between the Joker and Batman so well, and also explains the character of the Joker. An understandable character is always superior to an un-understandable one.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I've already said I prefer Year One, and I've never read Arkham Asylum.

You should try. It's one of the darkest, most twisted Batman stories out there. Not for everyone, though- I found it very tough to read.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
However, I do think that those who claim DKR to be the greatest comic of all time are rather pushing it. It just can't rival, in my opinion, the complexity of Watchmen, in any respect. Nothing can, in the comics medium, I believe.

I've never read Watchmen, personally- but DKR certainly isn't the best comic book ever.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Yes, I, Kovacs86, the artist formerly known as Knightfall93, confess that I was wrong. I did several times criticise the Dark Knight Returns very, very strongly. However, having decided to reread the graphic novel with an open mind, several years later, I actually loved it. No, it's not the greatest graphic novel of all time; it's not even the best Batman comic or even Miller's best (Daredevil: Born Again is superior, as is Batman: Year One), in my opinion, but I confess, I loved it.
I hang my head in shame...


... why is this thread worthy?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It was pretty cool, come to think of it. I suppose if I had to choose my main problem, it's the mutant gang storyline. I really, really didn't like it. I'm not sure I can explain why, though. Maybe I need to read DKR again. I'm suddenly starting to feel like it may be awesome if I read it again.

Yes, I kind of felt like that. Do it!

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Art is important, certainly. Second to a good story, of course- and I found Hush's story to be incredible. Of course, art always does help. Hush's primary strengths are it's excellent storytelling quality (I was constantly in suspense and waiting to read more, which is more than I can say for DKR), the compelling Catwoman/Batman dynamic, the general power of the characters, and, of course, its art. The mystery? Sub-par. But Hush is an incredible character.

Fair enough. That's your opinion. I've certainly read much worse.







Originally posted by Master Crimzon
While I can appreciate that art, it feels very, I dunno, kind of overly simplistic for me. I prefer complex art.

That too is fair enough. I suppose Miller's is fairly simplistic (as opposed to the art used in Arkham Asylum or Watchmen ).






Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Long Halloween wins because it is both a superb read, an excellent noir-styled crime drama, a fascinating mystery. It also allows Batman to fight both 'freaks' and the more real-life mob, which is one of the greatest strengths of Nolan's franchise.

It is very, very good and very enjoyable. It makes you wonder why Loeb can write so much crap now when he produced some great stuff a few years ago...



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I think the Killing Joke is awesome because it explains the relationship between the Joker and Batman so well, and also explains the character of the Joker. An understandable character is always superior to an un-understandable one.

I agree. It's extremely good. It's too short, though, and I hate the fact that that origin has now been adopted as something of the accepted Joker origin. Though I suppose there was that god-awful version told in Batman Confidential a while back. I hope that's not the "official" story...



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
You should try. It's one of the darkest, most twisted Batman stories out there. Not for everyone, though- I found it very tough to read.

So I've heard. I intend to. Soon.




Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I've never read Watchmen, personally- but DKR certainly isn't the best comic book ever.

Read Watchmen, before you see the film. It's incredible, and completely unrivalled in comics.

Originally posted by NonSensi-Klown
... why is this thread worthy?

If 100 different threads for Batman 3's villain are worthy, then so is this. I'm posting an opinion. Isn't that what forums are for?

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Yes, I kind of felt like that. Do it!

I may. Emphasize on 'may'.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
Fair enough. That's your opinion. I've certainly read much worse.

Oh, hell yeah. Although I usually avoid the most godawful Batman stories.









Originally posted by Kovacs86
That too is fair enough. I suppose Miller's is fairly simplistic (as opposed to the art used in Arkham Asylum or Watchmen ).

Heh. Anyway, yeah, I prefer more detailed art.








Originally posted by Kovacs86
It is very, very good and very enjoyable. It makes you wonder why Loeb can write so much crap now when he produced some great stuff a few years ago...

Hey, he's not the only one.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
I agree. It's extremely good. It's too short, though, and I hate the fact that that origin has now been adopted as something of the accepted Joker origin. Though I suppose there was that god-awful version told in Batman Confidential a while back. I hope that's not the "official" story...

Yeah, it's status as a one-shot prevents it from being sufficiently awesome. And the Joker origin in Batman Confidential is friggin' awful- it allows for the simplicity of "He was just born evil!!!" seen in so many comics. The Joker's origin story is, IMO, due to its parallel with Batman's, one of the greatest comic book origins ever.

I would love to see a lengthened version of the Killing Joke, too.

Btw, you read The Man Who Laughs? It's basically a more updated version of his first appearance, and a very good comic. So is Clown at Midnight. And I heard that his appearance in Batman R.I.P is awesome, too.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
So I've heard. I intend to. Soon.

Get to it. It's a very good story.






Originally posted by Kovacs86
Read Watchmen, before you see the film. It's incredible, and completely unrivalled in comics.

Right. I'll try to get my hands on it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, hell yeah. Although I usually avoid the most godawful Batman stories.

Have you read Miller's All Star? THAT is awful. Though the art's good. The dialogue... not so good...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Heh. Anyway, yeah, I prefer more detailed art.

As do I. As do many people. But less detailed art doesn't make for a poor comic.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hey, he's not the only one.

No. Sadly, Frank Miller himself has fallen even more spectacularly from grace.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Yeah, it's status as a one-shot prevents it from being sufficiently awesome. And the Joker origin in Batman Confidential is friggin' awful- it allows for the simplicity of "He was just born evil!!!" seen in so many comics. The Joker's origin story is, IMO, due to its parallel with Batman's, one of the greatest comic book origins ever.

I agree there. I don't like the idea of it being his set, "official" origin however. I like the Joker having a certain element of mystery.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Btw, you read The Man Who Laughs? It's basically a more updated version of his first appearance, and a very good comic. So is Clown at Midnight. And I heard that his appearance in Batman R.I.P is awesome, too.

Yes, I've read The Man Who Laughs. It's great. Brubaker's always great, actually, but I really loved that. I love a lot of Year One-period stories. I've not read the Clown at Midnight- is that available in trade paperback form? I've only read midway through RIP, as I haven't been to a comic shop in months. It was alright. A little strange. Enjoyable, but not a great "Batman" story.







Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Get to it. It's a very good story.

I'll get around to it ASAP.

I love DKR, but I prefer Long Halloween and Year One (mainly because I prefer young, just starting out Batman over grizzled veteran Batman)

Originally posted by Kovacs86


If 100 different threads for Batman 3's villain are worthy, then so is this. I'm posting an opinion. Isn't that what forums are for?

Of course. I Wasn't hating.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
I love DKR, but I prefer Long Halloween and Year One (mainly because I prefer young, just starting out Batman over grizzled veteran Batman)

I think that that Year One-period has certainly produced many of the best stories, which is odd, considering that most of them are retellings of earlier stories and don't have the freedom with characters and potential for originality that stories set in the present day do.

I suppose the character of Batman has developed all it can very easily in present day stories, though, and supervillains become somewhat... silly, when not juxtaposed with more realistic, understandable criminals (i.e: the mob). There have been hundreds of very similar Supervillain X VS Batman and there doesn't feel like much variety there. Batman's done it all before, whereas in stories set earlier, there's a fresher feel, perhaps because Batman is facing these villains for the first time, and thus developing an understanding of Gotham's descent, which is already complete (and, hence, there are few real developments) in modern day-set comics.
I really hope that made sense...



Fair enough. I apologise if my response was a little... over-zealous.

Well, I'll get around to reading Watchmen. And I have this terrible, terrible feeling the movie will blow. Don't tell me you don't get that feeling.

Edit: Yeah, Kovac, did you like Heath's Joker? From the few panels I've seen of Batman #680 and the Clown at Midnight (which is much more of an actual book- with narration, an omniscent narrator, and all- than a comic book), it's the most similar to H. Joker you're gonna get in comics.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, I'll get around to reading Watchmen. And I have this terrible, terrible feeling the movie will blow. Don't tell me you don't get that feeling.

I am surprisingly optimistic about this film, though I've hated the 2 previous Moore adaptions that I've seen- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and V for Vendetta. It actually looks surprisingly true to the comic (some parts of the trailer looked like exact replicas of scenes from the comic, remarkably). However misplaced it may prove to be, I have faith in Zack Snyder.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Edit: Yeah, Kovac, did you like Heath's Joker? From the few panels I've seen of Batman #680 and the Clown at Midnight (which is much more of an actual book- with narration, an omniscent narrator, and all- than a comic book), it's the most similar to H. Joker you're gonna get in comics.

Of course I liked Ledger's Joker. The Dark Knight was superb, and Ledger's Joker was the best part of the whole film, closely followed by the portrayal of Dent's downfall.
I've just realised that you were referring to the fairly recent Morrison issue of Batman (#66-something) when you mentioned the Clown at Midnight. I thought it was alright, though it felt a little pretentious and too much of a departure from the storyline in Batman at the time, to go into a whole separate prose Joker story. It wasn't bad, though. I just prefer to read either a good book or a good comic, not some half-arsed attempt at amalgamating the two. The man's hardly Tolkien, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I am surprisingly optimistic about this film, though I've hated the 2 previous Moore adaptions that I've seen- League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and V for Vendetta. It actually looks surprisingly true to the comic (some parts of the trailer looked like exact replicas of scenes from the comic, remarkably). However misplaced it may prove to be, I have faith in Zack Snyder.

I feel kind of stupid for saying this, but I didn't find League of Extraordinary Gentleman to be all that bad. It's a rather retarded movie, but I found it to be somewhat fun to watch. I can't say the same for V for Vendetta, though. I hated that godawful piece of crap.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
Of course I liked Ledger's Joker. The Dark Knight was superb, and Ledger's Joker was the best part of the whole film, closely followed by the portrayal of Dent's downfall.

I can hardly name a story in which the Joker is heavily featured and he isn't the best thing about it. I totally agree that his character is the best thing about the movie. Second best? I'm torn between the Bat-Voice and Maggie Gyllenhaal top-notch acting, of course.

...

Seriously, I liked both Dent's downfall, the portrayal of Batman's emotional conflict, and the Gordon/Batman/Dent alliance.
...
Originally posted by Kovacs86
I've just realised that you were referring to the fairly recent Morrison issue of Batman (#66-something) when you mentioned the Clown at Midnight. I thought it was alright, though it felt a little pretentious and too much of a departure from the storyline in Batman at the time, to go into a whole separate prose Joker story. It wasn't bad, though. I just prefer to read either a good book or a good comic, not some half-arsed attempt at amalgamating the two. The man's hardly Tolkien, I'm afraid.

Oh, well, I disagree. He isn't Tolkien, but he succeeded very well in writing a creepy, dark, and unsettling Joker story. I can understand why a load of people hated it, but for me, it's an amazing Joker story.

Btw, do you know the Joker cuts his own tongue up in Batman 680? Just to freak Batman out. Taking a note out of the Dark Knight, he's also rocking two scary-looking knives.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I feel kind of stupid for saying this, but I didn't find League of Extraordinary Gentleman to be all that bad. It's a rather retarded movie, but I found it to be somewhat fun to watch. I can't say the same for V for Vendetta, though. I hated that godawful piece of crap.

Hmph. Fair enough. Most people seem to think quite the reverse. That League was a "godawful piece of crap" and that V was OK. In fact, a scary amount of people seem to think the V film was some kind of monumental work of genius. Just look at some of the reviews on IMDB. However, I recommend both the comic version of League and of V for Vendetta. Alan Moore is a genius. I think League would probably appeal more if you're into Victorian literature, however...



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I can hardly name a story in which the Joker is heavily featured and he isn't the best thing about it. I totally agree that his character is the best thing about the movie. Second best? I'm torn between the Bat-Voice and Maggie Gyllenhaal top-notch acting, of course.

...

Seriously, I liked both Dent's downfall, the portrayal of Batman's emotional conflict, and the Gordon/Batman/Dent alliance.
...

I didn't have that much of a problem with Maggie Gylenhaal or the Bat-voice, to be honest. And, yes, the other two things you liked, I agree with.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, well, I disagree. He isn't Tolkien, but he succeeded very well in writing a creepy, dark, and unsettling Joker story. I can understand why a load of people hated it, but for me, it's an amazing Joker story.

Meh. Fair enough. I thought it was kind of stupid. Though the morse-code blinking thing was pretty funny...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Btw, do you know the Joker cuts his own tongue up in Batman 680? Just to freak Batman out. Taking a note out of the Dark Knight, he's also rocking two scary-looking knives.

Woah. That's actually pretty scary (the tongue thing). As for the knife thing, I'm sure we'll see a lot more TDK stuff in the Joker from now on, at least for a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Batman Confidential origin was to tie in with the film. Unfortunately, the only element remotely relating to the film was Joker having scars...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Hmph. Fair enough. Most people seem to think quite the reverse. That League was a "godawful piece of crap" and that V was OK. In fact, a scary amount of people seem to think the V film was some kind of monumental work of genius. Just look at some of the reviews on IMDB. However, I recommend both the comic version of League and of V for Vendetta. Alan Moore is a genius. I think League would probably appeal more if you're into Victorian literature, however...

They're... well... weird. I couldn't stand that movie, personally. Some people seem to think it's an epic, thought-provoking study about discrimation and fascism, or what not. It's a bunch of BS.

Alan Moore is, in my opinion, the greatest comic book writer of all time. Though his mainstream work was fairly limited, actually.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
I didn't have that much of a problem with Maggie Gylenhaal or the Bat-voice, to be honest. And, yes, the other two things you liked, I agree with.

I hated Maggie (her death scene was BRILLIANT, though), but I didn't have a problem with the bat-voice, personally. I actually kind of liked it, especially in Begins.




Originally posted by Kovacs86
Meh. Fair enough. I thought it was kind of stupid. Though the morse-code blinking thing was pretty funny...

How can you say no to that funeral scene, for example? I absolutely love that story.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
Woah. That's actually pretty scary (the tongue thing). As for the knife thing, I'm sure we'll see a lot more TDK stuff in the Joker from now on, at least for a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the whole point of the Batman Confidential origin was to tie in with the film. Unfortunately, the only element remotely relating to the film was Joker having scars...

Batman Confidential = blows. Luckily, TDK at least implied in the Joker's 'origin stories' that his past was tragic and understandable. I liked the second origin story more, personally, even if the first scene is so much scarier and more iconic (How can you forget the Joker rising out of that bodybag and sticking his knife into that mobster's mouth?). Abusive fathers are so cliched. And I liked the line "Now I see the funny side... now I'm always smiling!". Seems to me like the Joker found the irony of him being sad and depressed, but physically incapable of doing anything but smiling.

The tongue thing was downright chilling. It definetly looks like no writer will ever portray the Joker as a 'comical' killer- we're going into hardcore psychopath material. RIP's Joker seems to be the virtual mirror of H. Joker, lol.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
They're... well... weird. I couldn't stand that movie, personally. Some people seem to think it's an epic, thought-provoking study about discrimation and fascism, or what not. It's a bunch of BS.

I agree. The graphic novel, however, is fantastic. It's probably my 2nd favourite comic of all time (after Watchmen).

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Alan Moore is, in my opinion, the greatest comic book writer of all time. Though his mainstream work was fairly limited, actually.

Easily. There are an awful lot of people who'd agree with you. He's light-years ahead of most other comic writers...


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I hated Maggie (her death scene was BRILLIANT, though), but I didn't have a problem with the bat-voice, personally. I actually kind of liked it, especially in Begins.

The death scene certainly was excellent, though I thought she was fine in the film. She was an improvement on Katie Holmes...
As for the Bat-voice, it was pretty cool in Begins, I thought. It occasionally got a little too... growl-y in The Dark Knight.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
How can you say no to that funeral scene, for example? I absolutely love that story.

Huh? Funeral scene... I can't even remember. Damn, I'm going to have to reread that, and maybe pay a little more attention next time.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Batman Confidential = blows.

That about sums it up, though it's a real shame. I was really looking forward to getting an on-going series focusing on Batman's early years.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Luckily, TDK at least implied in the Joker's 'origin stories' that his past was tragic and understandable. I liked the second origin story more, personally, even if the first scene is so much scarier and more iconic (How can you forget the Joker rising out of that bodybag and sticking his knife into that mobster's mouth?). Abusive fathers are so cliched. And I liked the line "Now I see the funny side... now I'm always smiling!". Seems to me like the Joker found the irony of him being sad and depressed, but physically incapable of doing anything but smiling.

Yes, I agree 100%.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The tongue thing was downright chilling. It definetly looks like no writer will ever portray the Joker as a 'comical' killer- we're going into hardcore psychopath material. RIP's Joker seems to be the virtual mirror of H. Joker, lol.

I'd better get to the comic shop at the weekend then, which means I'll need to take a bloody 25-minute train journey...
I was trying to avoid going, too. Maybe I'll just wait a couple of months and get it from Amazon...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
I agree. The graphic novel, however, is fantastic. It's probably my 2nd favourite comic of all time (after Watchmen).

Interesting.

You know, the funny thing is, the X-Men films actually handled the idea of discrimination and oppression against minority (which is certainly a part of the V for Vendetta movie) a lot better than that godawful movie.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
Easily. There are an awful lot of people who'd agree with you. He's light-years ahead of most other comic writers...

Hell yeah. But I haven't seen any remarkable mainstream story from him aside from The Killing Joke- the rest are his own titles.

Though, from what I've heard and seen of him as a person, he seems like a massive douchebag.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
The death scene certainly was excellent, though I thought she was fine in the film. She was an improvement on Katie Holmes...
As for the Bat-voice, it was pretty cool in Begins, I thought. It occasionally got a little too... growl-y in The Dark Knight.

In TDK, she is less of a character and more of a driving force for the film, particularly Harvey's downfall. That's very good. Maggie, though, was at best a 'meh'. So was Holmes, but she was given more screen time- if less importance to the plot- so I found Holmes' acting more intolerable.

I agree on the Bat-voice.


Originally posted by Kovacs86
Huh? Funeral scene... I can't even remember. Damn, I'm going to have to reread that, and maybe pay a little more attention next time.

If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't), there as a scene in which one of the Joker's 'clowns' is given a funeral. Very creepy scene.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
That about sums it up, though it's a real shame. I was really looking forward to getting an on-going series focusing on Batman's early years.

We don't need so many goddamn retellings of Batman's first years- we have the superb Long Halloween, Man Who Laughs, and Year One, all of which are far superior to Batman Confidential, to tell that.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
I'd better get to the comic shop at the weekend then, which means I'll need to take a bloody 25-minute train journey...
I was trying to avoid going, too. Maybe I'll just wait a couple of months and get it from Amazon...

Well, you know who to blame.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Interesting.

You know, the funny thing is, the X-Men films actually handled the idea of discrimination and oppression against minority (which is certainly a part of the V for Vendetta movie) a lot better than that godawful movie.

True. To be honest, while that was a theme in the graphic novel, it wasn't nearly as important as a number of others.


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hell yeah. But I haven't seen any remarkable mainstream story from him aside from The Killing Joke- the rest are his own titles.

He's meant to have written some good stuff on Superman (I've heard "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is Good", though I've never read any. He also did some Green Lantern (or, more specifically, Mogo) stuff, and, of course, worked on Swamp Thing, though he did completely reinvent the character. He also worked on Captain Britain and Dr Who. Not exactly mainstream, but hardly very obscure characters...
Moore doesn't do "mainstream" writing (he's not a Geoff Johns or a Jeph Loeb- he doesn't just write mainstream stories which will please a lot of people and be quick, easy reads; not that that's a criticism of Johns, who's great). Even when he writes mainstream characters, Moore doesn't approach them from a mainstream viewpoint, I think...

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Though, from what I've heard and seen of him as a person, he seems like a massive douchebag.

He's not nearly as bad as people seem to think he is. He can be pretty funny too, to be honest. He has a very odd view of the world, though, which he can someone relate and sound quite rational. He worships a Roman snake God which was exposed as a puppet in the 2nd century, yet he doesn't actually really believe in it, I think...
He equates religion with art. He's an odd bloke, though extremely intelligent.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't), there as a scene in which one of the Joker's 'clowns' is given a funeral. Very creepy scene.

That rings a bell. I'll re-read it when I get home.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
We don't need so many goddamn retellings of Batman's first years- we have the superb Long Halloween, Man Who Laughs, and Year One, all of which are far superior to Batman Confidential, to tell that.

True. Have you read the Dark Moon Rising comics (Batman and the Mad Monk, Batman and the Monster Men)? They're set early in his "career". They're alright, though a little too grounded (if that's the appropriate word) in fantasy...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
True. To be honest, while that was a theme in the graphic novel, it wasn't nearly as important as a number of others.

I understand that, obviously. But it's a definite theme, no?

For example, Norsefire is basically an even-more-extreme version of the Nazi party.




Originally posted by Kovacs86
He's meant to have written some good stuff on Superman (I've heard "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is Good", though I've never read any. He also did some Green Lantern (or, more specifically, Mogo) stuff, and, of course, worked on Swamp Thing, though he did completely reinvent the character. He also worked on Captain Britain and Dr Who. Not exactly mainstream, but hardly very obscure characters...

Oh, yeah. By the way, d'you know there's apparently going to be a 'Whatever happened to the Caped Crusader?' thing after RIP concludes? Obviously it's not written by Moore, but it's obviously gonna be similar.

Do you really think Batman will die? I'm not sure, actually. In the end of 680, he was slammed by a load of Joker gas, but I don't believe it's possible that it killed him. What's gonna happen to him? Speculate.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Moore doesn't do "mainstream" writing (he's not a Geoff Johns or a Jeph Loeb- he doesn't just write mainstream stories which will please a lot of people and be quick, easy reads; not that that's a criticism of Johns, who's great). Even when he writes mainstream characters, Moore doesn't approach them from a mainstream viewpoint, I think...

Hmm... I see. I think Loeb in particular is awesome.

The funny thing is, even after he wrote the relationship between the Joker and Batman- and the Joker in particular- although it was relatively unusual, it's now used by other writers. He redefined the Joker, basically.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
He's not nearly as bad as people seem to think he is. He can be pretty funny too, to be honest. He has a very odd view of the world, though, which he can someone relate and sound quite rational. He worships a Roman snake God which was exposed as a puppet in the 2nd century, yet he doesn't actually really believe in it, I think...
He equates religion with art. He's an odd bloke, though extremely intelligent.

Interesting. Well, y'know a lot of geniuses are relatively big weirdos.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
That rings a bell. I'll re-read it when I get home.

Coolio. Try to read it with an open mind- it's a very good book.






Originally posted by Kovacs86
True. Have you read the Dark Moon Rising comics (Batman and the Mad Monk, Batman and the Monster Men)? They're set early in his "career". They're alright, though a little too grounded (if that's the appropriate word) in fantasy...

I hadn't read 'em, no. I'm not -that- interested in 'fantastic' Batman books, actually. My favorite Batman books are those when he fights insane psychopaths like Joker and Two-Face, in addition to mob-type enemies, which is a good reason as to why I love The Long Halloween. Although, Hush is a very good example of a book that I love, despite featuring Batman's war against 'freaks' almost exclusively.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I understand that, obviously. But it's a definite theme, no?

For example, Norsefire is basically an even-more-extreme version of the Nazi party.

Oh, it is a theme, and Norsefire is definitely similar to the Nazi party (though the graphic novel was aimed more at Thatcher than Hitler). However, the comic is about much more, especially about ideas of anarchism and fascism. The characters, even the fascists, are all much more complex, too. It's so ****ing awesome...






Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, yeah. By the way, d'you know there's apparently going to be a 'Whatever happened to the Caped Crusader?' thing after RIP concludes? Obviously it's not written by Moore, but it's obviously gonna be similar.

Do you really think Batman will die? I'm not sure, actually. In the end of 680, he was slammed by a load of Joker gas, but I don't believe it's possible that it killed him. What's gonna happen to him? Speculate.

He won't die. They surely wouldn't do that while they plan for a 3rd film.

PLEASE try not to spoil RIP for me...



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hmm... I see. I think Loeb in particular is awesome.

Meh. He writes too much crap for me to love him, but I do love the Long Halloween, and I also enjoyed Hush, Daredevil: Yellow, Spider-Man: Blue and Dark Victory. These last few years he's written so much bollocks, though. Did you read his run on Wolverine?

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
The funny thing is, even after he wrote the relationship between the Joker and Batman- and the Joker in particular- although it was relatively unusual, it's now used by other writers. He redefined the Joker, basically.

A huge amount of original stuff written by Moore has been copied, including Watchmen. Watchmen inspired so much, it's insane...


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I hadn't read 'em, no. I'm not -that- interested in 'fantastic' Batman books, actually. My favorite Batman books are those when he fights insane psychopaths like Joker and Two-Face, in addition to mob-type enemies, which is a good reason as to why I love The Long Halloween. Although, Hush is a very good example of a book that I love, despite featuring Batman's war against 'freaks' almost exclusively. I recommend Dark Moon Rising. Even though there are some more far-fetched elements, the mob also features prominently and it's a pretty good story from Batman's early years...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Oh, it is a theme, and Norsefire is definitely similar to the Nazi party (though the graphic novel was aimed more at Thatcher than Hitler). However, the comic is about much more, especially about ideas of anarchism and fascism. The characters, even the fascists, are all much more complex, too. It's so ****ing awesome...

Well, that's coolio, definetly. I enjoy reading about fascism and political stuff like that.

Is V a kind of anarchist in the graphic novel? If I remember the movie (I caught it on a plane ride, actually. The only thing I can distinctly remember about it is that it was a load of ass), V there was reduced to a murderous vigilante pursuing revenge for what Norsefire did to him. Is his graphic novel persona more complex?








Originally posted by Kovacs86
He won't die. They surely wouldn't do that while they plan for a 3rd film.

PLEASE try not to spoil RIP for me...

Okay, sorry.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
Meh. He writes too much crap for me to love him, but I do love the Long Halloween, and I also enjoyed Hush, Daredevil: Yellow, Spider-Man: Blue and Dark Victory. These last few years he's written so much bollocks, though. Did you read his run on Wolverine?

Hey, all great comic book writers- with the arguable exception of Alan Moore- wrote some crap during their life. Hush is pretty modern anyway- it's probably the best Batman story of the 21st century, wouldn't you say?

And no, I didn't read his run on Wolverine, even if I, unlike so many people, love the character of Wolverine. What did he do?



Originally posted by Kovacs86
A huge amount of original stuff written by Moore has been copied, including Watchmen. Watchmen inspired so much, it's insane...

I think it's good that he's being imitated. After all, imagine the Joker without Alan Moore's Killing Joke. A huge amount of his character would be lost.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
I recommend Dark Moon Rising. Even though there are some more far-fetched elements, the mob also features prominently and it's a pretty good story from Batman's early years...

I understand. Do you know any sort of online site I can use to get my hands on some of the Batman comics? 'cuz, you see, I don't have any sort of comic book shop near me, at least not an updated one.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that's coolio, definetly. I enjoy reading about fascism and political stuff like that.

Is V a kind of anarchist in the graphic novel? If I remember the movie (I caught it on a plane ride, actually. The only thing I can distinctly remember about it is that it was a load of ass), V there was reduced to a murderous vigilante pursuing revenge for what Norsefire did to him. Is his graphic novel persona more complex?

Yes, it is. Certainly, V is driven by revenge, but he's more complex than just a revenge-driven vigilante. He certainly believes in the anarchist cause, and there's some pretty profound stuff in there.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Okay, sorry.

I'll forgive you.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hey, all great comic book writers- with the arguable exception of Alan Moore- wrote some crap during their life. Hush is pretty modern anyway- it's probably the best Batman story of the 21st century, wouldn't you say?

Certainly, it's one of the best Batman stories of this century, but there haven't been that many memorable ones. Dark Moon Rising was good, too, as were various other storylines, but I can't think of one great story written this century.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
And no, I didn't read his run on Wolverine, even if I, unlike so many people, love the character of Wolverine. What did he do?

The first issue was one of the worst I've ever read. It was little except for a lot of crappy action. It was almost as bad as his bastardisation of Ultimates.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I think it's good that he's being imitated. After all, imagine the Joker without Alan Moore's Killing Joke. A huge amount of his character would be lost.

To a certain extent, it's good. But Heroes is just Watchmen for a more mainstream audience, honestly.



Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I understand. Do you know any sort of online site I can use to get my hands on some of the Batman comics? 'cuz, you see, I don't have any sort of comic book shop near me, at least not an updated one.

I generally get my graphic novels from Amazon. If I want anything specific or new, I use Forbidden Planet, which is a great website...

Originally posted by Kovacs86
Yes, it is. Certainly, V is driven by revenge, but he's more complex than just a revenge-driven vigilante. He certainly believes in the anarchist cause, and there's some pretty profound stuff in there.

Well, that seems cool.

Is he depicted as a sympathetic or unsympathetic character in the novel? To me, it seemed like he was supposed to come off likeable, but ended up being utterly un-likeable in the movie.




Originally posted by Kovacs86
I'll forgive you.

Thanks.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
Certainly, it's one of the best Batman stories of this century, but there haven't been that many memorable ones. Dark Moon Rising was good, too, as were various other storylines, but I can't think of one great story written this century.

Hush wins for me. Oh, yeah, Clown at Midnight, The Man Who Laughs (yeah, it's difficult to write a bad Joker story if you're a half-decent comic book writer), and Batman R.I.P are all good, IMO.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
The first issue was one of the worst I've ever read. It was little except for a lot of crappy action. It was almost as bad as his bastardisation of Ultimates.

Really? What did he do? Humor me.



Originally posted by Kovacs86
To a certain extent, it's good. But Heroes is just Watchmen for a more mainstream audience, honestly.

Hmm... I see.





Originally posted by Kovacs86
I generally get my graphic novels from Amazon. If I want anything specific or new, I use Forbidden Planet, which is a great website...

Gotcha. Do you know if they make out-of-country delivers? I'm not American, or British, or whatever.

Oh, and I've just read a part of Marvel Zombies, and it was actually... good. It was far better than I expected anyway.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Well, that seems cool.

Is he depicted as a sympathetic or unsympathetic character in the novel? To me, it seemed like he was supposed to come off likeable, but ended up being utterly un-likeable in the movie.

V is certainly a sympathetic character, but he's still pretty messed up and does some unpleasant stuff...


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Hush wins for me. Oh, yeah, Clown at Midnight, The Man Who Laughs (yeah, it's difficult to write a bad Joker story if you're a half-decent comic book writer), and Batman R.I.P are all good, IMO.

The Man Who Laughs would be my favourite out of that lot. I think Dark Victory is probably from 2000. That's pretty good, though nowhere near as good as the Long Halloween.




Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Really? What did he do? Humor me.

It was just... boring. There was a load of action and **** all else. As for Ultimates, it has to be read to be believed. Fortunately, Mark Millar's coming back soon...




Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Gotcha. Do you know if they make out-of-country delivers? I'm not American, or British, or whatever.

Well, it's called Forbidden Planet International, so I expect so. Amazon certainly does. See for yourself, it's a great 'site:
http://www.forbidden-planet.co.uk/


Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Oh, and I've just read a part of Marvel Zombies, and it was actually... good. It was far better than I expected anyway.

Wow. That's a surprise. I thought that looked, to be frank, absolutely shite. It just seems a stupid idea, to be honest.

Originally posted by Kovacs86
V is certainly a sympathetic character, but he's still pretty messed up and does some unpleasant stuff...

That does remind me of some certain mainstream characters. He seems interesting, though.




Originally posted by Kovacs86
The Man Who Laughs would be my favourite out of that lot. I think Dark Victory is probably from 2000. That's pretty good, though nowhere near as good as the Long Halloween.

I still hadn't read Dark Victory, but yeah, it supposed to be pretty good. Though, Hush is somewhat close to Long Halloween, IMO, so something 'nowhere near' as good as that probably won't top it.






Originally posted by Kovacs86
It was just... boring. There was a load of action and **** all else. As for Ultimates, it has to be read to be believed. Fortunately, Mark Millar's coming back soon...

Lolz, I can't stand those books in which there's just "Hulk smassssshhh!" (yeah, I know it's not the Hulk, but you get the point).







Originally posted by Kovacs86
Well, it's called Forbidden Planet International, so I expect so. Amazon certainly does. See for yourself, it's a great 'site:
http://www.forbidden-planet.co.uk/

O-kay, thanks.




Originally posted by Kovacs86
Wow. That's a surprise. I thought that looked, to be frank, absolutely shite. It just seems a stupid idea, to be honest.

It's kind of retarded, but the explanations for the zombie infestation is kind of cool, actually. And unlike most 'zombie' stories, the zombie-fied Marvel characters can actually think on their previous level, just not when they're hungry. It's enjoyable enough, I s'pose.

And if you hit the comic book stores in the near future, check out Magneto Testament. It's a very good series, thus far.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
That does remind me of some certain mainstream characters. He seems interesting, though.

I'd say V's a pretty original character, really. You'll just have to read it...

http://www.amazon.com/V-Vendetta-Alan-Moore/dp/0930289528/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223665982&sr=8-5





Originally posted by Master Crimzon
I still hadn't read Dark Victory, but yeah, it supposed to be pretty good. Though, Hush is somewhat close to Long Halloween, IMO, so something 'nowhere near' as good as that probably won't top it.

Dark Victory's not bad, it's just a bit too much of an attempt to copy Long Halloween's format, really. It's alright, though I wouldn't tell you to rush out and get it.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
Lolz, I can't stand those books in which there's just "Hulk smassssshhh!" (yeah, I know it's not the Hulk, but you get the point).

Yeah, it was just like that, only with more smashing (or "snikt"ing or something...)




Originally posted by Master Crimzon
It's kind of retarded, but the explanations for the zombie infestation is kind of cool, actually. And unlike most 'zombie' stories, the zombie-fied Marvel characters can actually think on their previous level, just not when they're hungry. It's enjoyable enough, I s'pose.

And if you hit the comic book stores in the near future, check out Magneto Testament. It's a very good series, thus far.

Zombies sounds interesting. I'm curious, now, so I may have to get it...

As for Testament... well, I'm not really an X-Men fan, but... what's it about? I'm guessing Magneto's testament, but other than that... what is it?