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If so, I AM GOING TO HELL!!!!! that okay, i dont believe in hell Do you think it is a sin, and if so, why?

I had a long Christian upbringing and there's nothing I know of that says atheism is a sin. Jesus did mention something about "the only way to the Father is through me" but that doesn't make it a sin not to be a Christian and much of the bible contradicts that stance, IMO. Being a good person is generally more important than being specifically religious.

Being a dick about being an atheist would probably get you sent to hell.

Also, sinning doesn't equal going to hell. I can't imagine why people think it would be so black and white.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I had a long Christian upbringing and there's nothing I know of that says atheism is a sin. Jesus did mention something about "the only way to the Father is through me" but that doesn't make it a sin not to be a Christian and much of the bible contradicts that stance, IMO. Being a good person is generally more important than being specifically religious.

Being a dick about being an atheist would probably get you sent to hell.

Also, sinning doesn't equal going to hell. I can't imagine why people think it would be so black and white. Maybe because it's actually even more black and white and people can't believe anyone would be that simplistic.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Maybe because it's actually even more black and white and people can't believe anyone would be that simplistic.

How can it be more black and white than black and white?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How can it be more black and white than black and white? It's more black and white than what you called black and white.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's more black and white than what you called black and white.

So it's all black or all white? I'm really confused, how can it get more simple than "any sin = hell, no sin = heaven".

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
If so, I AM GOING TO HELL!!!!! that okay, i dont believe in hell Do you think it is a sin, and if so, why?

The hell, as described in the bible, does not exist. Also, the god of the bible does not exist. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if atheism is a sin or not. BTW I'm not an atheist.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The hell, as described in the bible, does not exist. Also, the god of the bible does not exist. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if atheism is a sin or not. BTW I'm not an atheist.

It does, he does. Yes it does.

I just pwned your argument six ways from Sunday.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It does, he does. Yes it does.

I just pwned your argument six ways from Sunday.


And missed my point.

If you believe in something, then that something will be real to you. However, if you do not believe in something, then that something is not real.

The answer to the question depends on whom the question is being asked too. I was answering it from my point of view. To say that something does or does not exist requires evidence. Nature is the evidence that I use, and a book is the evidence that a Christian would use. I feel that nature is stronger evidence then a book.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The hell, as described in the bible, does not exist. Also, the god of the bible does not exist. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if atheism is a sin or not. BTW I'm not an atheist. ahh. why not? what are you?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And missed my point.

If you believe in something, then that something will be real to you. However, if you do not believe in something, then that something is not real.

The answer to the question depends on whom the question is being asked too. I was answering it from my point of view. To say that something does or does not exist requires evidence. Nature is the evidence that I use, and a book is the evidence that a Christian would use. I feel that nature is stronger evidence then a book.

So nihilists can walk through walls 'n shit?

denying the holy spirit is sin iirc

EDIT: and in Islam, any form of apostacy is sin

(obviously rational people of either religion can have much more tollorant beliefs)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So nihilists can walk through walls 'n shit?

According to String theory: Yes, but highly unlikely.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
ahh. why not? what are you?

I am a Buddhist. I think the question "Is there a god?" to be a waist of time.

There isn't a god, but there is a connective energy and inbetween that is something like nothingness which in it's self is still alive. I say alive in words that don't really mean alive like we are.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I am a Buddhist. I think the question "Is there a god?" to be a waist of time.

"The only one who should be concerned with God's existence is God."

WhY? and what is this god?

Why is anyone entertaining the threads of a troll?

Isn't this a bit of an oxymoron? If someone is an atheist, then they don't believe in sin. Making the question moot, because they are forgiven (I think. This is coming from the State Fair, not from an understanding of the Christian Faith) when they accept Jebus into their heart. All prior sins are washed away.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So it's all black or all white? I'm really confused, how can it get more simple than "any sin = hell, no sin = heaven".

"Accept Jesus as saviour = heaven", "don't = hell".

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
If so, I AM GOING TO HELL!!!!! that okay, i dont believe in hell Do you think it is a sin, and if so, why?

If I don't believe in hot water will I still be burnt when I touch it?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I had a long Christian upbringing and there's nothing I know of that says atheism is a sin. Jesus did mention something about "the only way to the Father is through me" but that doesn't make it a sin not to be a Christian and much of the bible contradicts that stance, IMO. Being a good person is generally more important than being specifically religious.

Being a dick about being an atheist would probably get you sent to hell.

Also, sinning doesn't equal going to hell. I can't imagine why people think it would be so black and white.

How can you keep the first commandment if you don't believe in God?

Jesus said in repsonse to the question "how do I gain eternal life". "Love the lord your God and your neighbour."

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
If I don't believe in hot water will I still be burnt when I touch it?...

But if you don't believe in a type of water that does not exist, it will not burn you.

If you can prove that hell exists (as described in the bible) like you can prove that water exists, then I will change my mind.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But if you don't believe in a type of water that does not exist, it will not burn you.

If you can prove that hell exists (as described in the bible) like you can prove that water exists, then I will change my mind.

So we agree then, that if something exists your belief in it is not neccessary for you to be harmed by it?

If you can prove to me that you exist...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

Being a dick about being an atheist would probably get you sent to hell.


I agree with that. Dogmatic Atheists are just as annoying as Bible Thumpers with a bullhorn.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
There isn't a god, but there is a connective energy and inbetween that is something like nothingness which in it's self is still alive. I say alive in words that don't really mean alive like we are.

It surrounds and penetrates us, binding the galaxy together.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
So we agree then, that if something exists your belief in it is not neccessary for you to be harmed by it?

If you can prove to me that you exist...

I can prove that; just give me a plane ticket and an address.

I told Jesus he could come for free, but he wouldn't show. Maybe he's pissed at me.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
How can you keep the first commandment if you don't believe in God?

I don't. I simply had a very positive Christian upbringing which I later left behind (in terms religious practice) as I grew up.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Jesus said in repsonse to the question "how do I gain eternal life". "Love the lord your God and your neighbour."

Sweet. Jesus was an awesome guy.

Well, if you think about it, the first comandment said "You shall worship no other God but me." well, atheists aren't worshipping other Gods, now are they?

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Well, if you think about it, the first comandment said "You shall worship no other God but me." well, atheists aren't worshipping other Gods, now are they?

But you do have to worship God.

poop

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
poop

I wonder how long you will last here...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
But you do have to worship God.

Why? An all powerful God would not need worship.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I wonder how long you will last here...

Hopefully a while he seems smart enough to keep up but dumb enough to make the rest of us feel smart.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why? An all powerful God would not need worship.

But he might want it or get kicks when it happens.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why? An all powerful God would not need worship.

Its all about Love Shaky, all about love.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Its all about Love Shaky, all about love.

So, if you had a son, and he grew up and moved away and never wanted to see you again, would you judge him to burn in hell for eternity?

It has nothing to do with love; it's all to do with power.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, if you had a son, and he grew up and moved away and never wanted to see you again, would you judge him to burn in hell for eternity?

It has nothing to do with love; it's all to do with power.

If I was God...sure.

Lol, fine, pick on the freshman! hahaha i am fifteen! Of course you guys have a bit of knowledge on me, but thats not my fault. You guys have had a few extra years. But i have read and fully understood books by Dawkins and Harris and Dennett and am top of my class. But im just a freshman! so dont pick on me too much!

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
If I was God...sure.

...and I would not worship you.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Its all about Love Shaky, all about love. If something forces you to love or else, then it isn't love. It's manipulation.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
If something forces you to love or else, then it isn't love. It's manipulation.

and what is manipulation? A type of power.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
If something forces you to love or else, then it isn't love. It's manipulation.

Who is forcing you?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Who is forcing you?

The fear of hell.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The fear of hell.

Your not being forced??

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Your not being forced??

I'm not? If you said to me to do something or you will attack me. Is that forcing me? According to the law it is.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm not? If you said to me to do something or you will attack me. Is that forcing me? According to the law it is.

Look, do you love God?

No.

Therefore noone is forcing youl.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Look, do you love God?

No.

Therefore noone is forcing youl.

You are right, no one is forcing me. The reason for that is because there is no hell or god as described in the bible. However, every day, in the most insidious ways, I am forced by this Christian indoctrinated society I live in.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
...and I would not worship you.

Not even out of fear?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not even out of fear?

No.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No.

Then your not being forced.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Then your not being forced.

Did you not read this?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are right, no one is forcing me. The reason for that is because there is no hell or god as described in the bible. However, every day, in the most insidious ways, I am forced by this Christian indoctrinated society I live in.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Did you not read this?

So...your not being forced...so you take back what you originally said...noone is forcing you to love God.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
So...your not being forced...so you take back what you originally said...noone is forcing you to love God.

That wasn't the point. The point was worship.

My society tries to force me, and other people to conform to Christian ideas. Unfortunately, it works on some people.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That wasn't the point. The point was worship.

My society tries to force me, and other people to conform to Christian ideas. Unfortunately, it works on some people.

Evidence?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That wasn't the point. The point was worship.

My society tries to force me, and other people to conform to Christian ideas. Unfortunately, it works on some people.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
My society tries to force me, and other people to conform to Christian ideas. Unfortunately, it works on some people.

strange, fundamentalist christians would say the opposite...

just sayin, you know

Originally posted by inimalist
strange, fundamentalist christians would say the opposite...

just sayin, you know

I can't argue with that.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
So...your not being forced...so you take back what you originally said...noone is forcing you to love God. It is being forced by default. "You won't love me, then I'll destroy you."

Originally posted by Deja~vu
It is being forced by default. "You won't love me, then I'll destroy you."

Yet, you don't love him...

If you were being forced, you would.

^no, people can resist being forced, but at a price. tell me that YOU beleive that people who dont love god will get off scott free in the afterlife then. {obviously you dont}. in the end its just fear, only, sum people have realised that the fear is just made up and is based on nuthing real and have gone beyond it. still doesnt excuse the behaviour of the hypothetical being{god} in question, as long as we are talking ethics.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
If you were being forced, you would.

Yes, but it's clearly not much of a choice. We're not being forced, but the ultimatum is fairly scary. For example, I was a Christian who knowingly and willingly turned away from God. A considerable percentage of Christian-dom believes me to be going to hell for eternity, regardless of how "good" a person I am. It's not forced belief, but it's alternatives are fairly morbid, no?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^no, people can resist being forced, but at a price. tell me that YOU beleive that people who dont love god will get off scott free in the afterlife then. {obviously you dont}. in the end its just fear, only, sum people have realised that the fear is just made up and is based on nuthing real and have gone beyond it. still doesnt excuse the behaviour of the hypothetical being{god} in question, as long as we are talking ethics.

Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.

Furthermore, Deva and Shaky are saying people are forced to love God- where is that evidence? God isn't forcing them to believe in him...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven

Then their beliefs differ from accepted Catholic dogma, in which Hell is recognized as an actual place/state. I know people like this as well, so your opinion isn't wrong. But neither is it wrong for me to say that such an ultimatum (believe or suffer) exists from nearly every sect of Christianity.

SOME{very few} catholics beleive that every1 will get into heaven. even lesser beleive that unbeleivers wont have to repent in different ways after their deah before they get in{yes, you are vastly exxagerating this phenomenon}, so my point ISNT moot. also, isnt it a basic christian doctrine that to enter into heaven, one has to accept jesus as his saviour???

the evidence is the fact of hell in the afterlife, and the supposed historical accounts of different "wicked" nations being destroyed by god{who didnt love and follow his words}. that is called being forced, ofcourse, not all kinds of FORCING produce affects as there will always be people who go against extreme odds.

lol

wouldn't it be like the choice to drink bleach?

Nobody is forcing you to or not to, however, there is a large consequence associated with the one?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Then their beliefs differ from accepted Catholic dogma, in which Hell is recognized as an actual place/state. I know people like this as well, so your opinion isn't wrong. But neither is it wrong for me to say that such an ultimatum (believe or suffer) exists from nearly every sect of Christianity.

Actually, your wrong. It is not dogma that non-believers will go to hell for eternity.

Many prominent Cardinals are supporters of Universalism.

Are you aware of what Dogma means in a Catholic Context?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.

Furthermore, Deva and Shaky are saying people are forced to love God- where is that evidence? God isn't forcing them to believe in him...

Your god does not force me; your god does not do anything. It is the worshipers that do everything. Also, I think we are talking about two different definitions of force. You are talking about physically forcing someone and I am talking about imposing your beliefs on others.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your god does not force me; your god does not do anything. It is the worshipers that do everything. Also, I think we are talking about two different definitions of force. You are talking about physically forcing someone and I am talking about imposing your beliefs on others.

When has he forced his will on you?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
When has he forced his will on you?

Who is he?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Who is he?

Your initial argument was that God forced people to love him.

When has he forced you?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Actually, your wrong. It is not dogma that non-believers will go to hell for eternity.

Many prominent Cardinals are supporters of Universalism.

Are you aware of what Dogma means in a Catholic Context?

I said it was dogma that hell is a real place, as a consequence for those who don't adequately follow the doctrine of the Church (whatever "adequate" means). I didn't go beyond that. And yes, I'm aware of what dogma means. It's nice that Cardinals believe that...it means they're starting to come around to the idea that Hell isn't a literal place. But it doesn't change my point that the consequences for non-belief exist in most sects, since we can't know what does and doesn't qualify as "good enough" for heaven. The element of fear still exists as a tool for the religion.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Your initial argument was that God forced people to love him.

When has he forced you?

That is not my argument. I am talking about the Christian community forcing me. IMHO the Christian god cannot do anything, because he is not real. Therefore, it is the people who we are talking about, and not a mystical being.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I said it was dogma that hell is a real place, as a consequence for those who don't adequately follow the doctrine of the Church (whatever "adequate" means). I didn't go beyond that. And yes, I'm aware of what dogma means. It's nice that Cardinals believe that...it means they're starting to come around to the idea that Hell isn't a literal place. But it doesn't change my point that the consequences for non-belief exist in most sects, since we can't know what does and doesn't qualify as "good enough" for heaven. The element of fear still exists as a tool for the religion.

They still believe in hell, just that people won't be there forever. A place as hell isn't even dogma.

There is something to the idea that the large Christian majority, simply through their control of so many positions of power (more just coincidence, if 80% of the people are Christian, most people in power should also be) pressures those who are not Christians to convert or at the very least accept some degree of their beliefs, imho.

I think we had this debate about Christmas before... It is very possible to feel alienated because you don't believe what appears to be pervasive at all levels of society.

Originally posted by inimalist
There is something to the idea that the large Christian majority, simply through their control of so many positions of power (more just coincidence, if 80% of the people are Christian, most people in power should also be) pressures those who are not Christians to convert or at the very least accept some degree of their beliefs, imho.

I think we had this debate about Christmas before... It is very possible to feel alienated because you don't believe what appears to be pervasive at all levels of society.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
They still believe in hell, just that people won't be there forever. A place as hell isn't even dogma.

What inamilist said, basically. Although a big lulz at you essentially trying to devolve your point into "no one believes in hell, and fear isn't an element of religion." Yes, indeed, nothing is negative about religion, no one thinks hell is a place/state, and the fear of punishment isn't part of Christianity, nor has it ever been.

Christ.

We're not trying to use this to say that religion is wrong. We're just pointing out truths, and you're acting like it doesn't exist. Take the blinders off and own up to some of religion's shortcomings for a change.



I also don't consider you an authority. At least not nearly as much as a Catholic upbringing that did teach that hell was real, in no uncertain terms, and wasn't anywhere near what might be considered radical or fundamentalist.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
What inamilist said, basically. Although a big lulz at you essentially trying to devolve your point into "no one believes in hell, and fear isn't an element of religion." Yes, indeed, nothing is negative about religion, no one thinks hell is a place/state, and the fear of punishment isn't part of Christianity, nor has it ever been.

Christ.

We're not trying to use this to say that religion is wrong. We're just pointing out truths, and you're acting like it doesn't exist. Take the blinders off and own up to some of religion's shortcomings for a change.



I also don't consider you an authority. At least not nearly as much as a Catholic upbringing that did teach that hell was real, in no uncertain terms, and wasn't anywhere near what might be considered radical or fundamentalist.

Right, your totally misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

First, my point is not that "noone believes in hell and fear isn't an element of religion." I believe in hell, every Catholic I know believes in hell. I am also fully aware that hell is used to inspire fear in people or to coerce them to believe, for example Pascal's Wager...although its usually the more crude "believe or you'll burn" thing.

My point was simple some people do not believe in hell, some people do believe in hell but do not believe people are punished there forever.

I never denied that- ever. I dont know where the "We're not trying to use this to say that religion is wrong." bit came from, I never even tried to debate that part of it.

The "debate" between us was about Catholic teaching on hell. The reason you lose is because you misunderstand DOGMA. A teaching does not equal a dogma. A Dogma is something which Catholics must believe, there is no debate. Hell has never been so defined.

(For the record, this is the second time you have told me what I am arguing... Although, I realise this is probably my fault it would be good to clarify....your response to that one sentence was a bit...overassuming at best.)

grand, have you ever heard of "being forced into a corner". you are arguing fallaciously. does any1 FORCE a woman to give up her baby by putting a gun to her head and her baby's head and implying that not complying would have the consequence of them both dying. technically{or according to the way you are debating} the woman still has a choice, to not give up her baby and havign them both die. but in reality, the consequence is so severe that despite this "TECHNICAL" choice, she is FORCED by the consequences to choose the alternative of giving up her child. free choice is the choice where there are no extreme consequences to your decision and you make the decision based on you own PERSONAL fealings. if fear is being instilled{as is the case of LOVE with god} into the process than the motivation becomes fear and not sincere love in the first place. so people are AFRAID of god more than they freely choose to LOVE god. they PRETEND to love him kinda like an employee pretends to love an employer. that is not true love} than it isnt free choice.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
grand, have you ever heard of "being forced into a corner". you are arguing fallaciously. does any1 FORCE a woman to give up her baby by putting a gun to her head and her baby's head and implying that not complying would have the consequence of them both dying. technically{or according to the way you are debating} the woman still has a choice, to not give up her baby and havign them both die. but in reality, the consequence is so severe that despite this "TECHNICAL" choice, she is FORCED by the consequences to choose the alternative of giving up her child. free choice is the choice where there are no extreme consequences to your decision and you make the decision based on you own PERSONAL fealings. if fear is being instilled{as is the case of LOVE with god} into the process than the motivation becomes fear and not sincere love in the first place. so people are AFRAID of god more than they freely choose to LOVE god. they PRETEND to love him kinda like an employee pretends to love an employer. that is not true love} than it isnt free choice.

I am debating nothing of the sort, at least I don't mean to be.

The God force thing is that Shaky said that God forces people to love him: I pointed out that he clearly doesn't otherwise everyone would love God...

Also, I believe you and I agree when it comes to the concept of "choice" as I recall.

Furthermore, my replies to Digi about the existence of hell have absolutely nothing to do with what i was saying about God forcing people.

There isn't win/lose in discussions of this nature. To view it as such is childish.

I never tell you what you're saying. What I wrote was simply how I understood everything you had said up to that point. The above posts of yours were the first in our exchange where you acknowledged anything I said as having merit, and the first to confirm a belief in hell and use of fear as a tool, instead of dodging the issue at hand.

So don't finally decide to concede basic beliefs of the church, instead of providing reasons why it maybe doesn't exist, then say I "lose"....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Nothing I said was wrong, except for the slight misuse of the word dogma, which then becomes completely true again if you insert the word "teaching" for dogma.

And how it is used in society isn't along the lines of Pascal's Wager. Listen to a lot of sermons, or something as mundane as children on a playground talking about religion, and the message is simple: obey or go to hell. A powerful tactic when ingrained in a culture over a long period of time, but no less nefarious for it.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
There isn't win/lose in discussions of this nature. To view it as such is childish.
Almost as Childish as "I don't hold you as an authority" That kind of makes our discussion a little pointless because you start off by disregarding everything I say.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I never tell you what you're saying. What I wrote was simply how I understood everything you had said up to that point. The above posts of yours were the first in our exchange where you acknowledged anything I said as having merit, and the first to confirm a belief in hell and use of fear as a tool, instead of dodging the issue at hand.

That's because it was only in that post that I began to debate the idea of hell being used as a tool for fear or whatever. Previous to that I was only pointing out that not all Catholics agree on what hell is and what it does.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
So don't finally decide to concede basic beliefs of the church, instead of providing reasons why it maybe doesn't exist, then say I "lose"....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. Nothing I said was wrong, except for the slight misuse of the word dogma, which then becomes completely true again if you insert the word "teaching" for dogma.

Good God. I was never ever ever ever ever ever ever trying to debate hell with you, or how preachers use it as an element of control. I pointed out that some Catholics don't believe that punishment in hell is eternal...you then said I was disregarding dogma or whatever- which I wasn't...because it isn't dogma. Also, I am conceding nothing here...you "lose" because you are debating me on things I never said...yes you lose because of that- absolutely.

Also, your "slight misuse" is actually a really big one. Dogma is Catholic FACT. Teaching is Catholic Belief...(ofcourse they are both beliefs but Dogmas you must believe the others you can interpret/debate etc.)

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And how it is used in society isn't along the lines of Pascal's Wager. Listen to a lot of sermons, or something as mundane as children on a playground talking about religion, and the message is simple: obey or go to hell.
Yes, I said that.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Then their beliefs differ from accepted Catholic dogma, in which Hell is recognized as an actual place/state. I know people like this as well, so your opinion isn't wrong. But neither is it wrong for me to say that such an ultimatum (believe or suffer) exists from nearly every sect of Christianity. Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Actually, your wrong. It is not dogma that non-believers will go to hell for eternity.

Many prominent Cardinals are supporters of Universalism.

Are you aware of what Dogma means in a Catholic Context?

Note, nowhere do I dispute your "ultimatum" part.

I only mention your misuse of the word Dogma.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Almost as Childish as "I don't hold you as an authority" That kind of makes our discussion a little pointless because you start off by disregarding everything I say.

It wasn't an insult. I don't hold you as one. All you were posting were anecdotes that supported the idea that lots of people don't believe in hell. My upbringing refuted it, which I hold in higher regard. Simple enough.

And yeah, you were refuting the ultimatum by meeting it with all kinds of "well, but {insert group of people} think this" and not addressing the point. It was only when I called you out that you acknowledged it.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Good God. I was never ever ever ever ever ever ever trying to debate hell with you, or how preachers use it as an element of control. I pointed out that some Catholics don't believe that punishment in hell is eternal...you then said I was disregarding dogma or whatever- which I wasn't...because it isn't dogma. Also, I am conceding nothing here...you "lose" because you are debating me on things I never said...yes you lose because of that- absolutely.

Also, your "slight misuse" is actually a really big one. Dogma is Catholic FACT. Teaching is Catholic Belief...(ofcourse they are both beliefs but Dogmas you must believe the others you can interpret/debate etc.)

'cept the misuse didn't invalidate my point, which was general belief in hell as a place and use of it as a fear tactic. Which remain true. I conceded misuse of dogma. But it didn't make me wrong, it just made that word wrong, not the entire point.

Also, framing it in terms of winning and losing is still silly. Do I "win" now because I changed the wording of the point, while still retaining the same meaning? Or do you just feel that much of a need to "win" a debate?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It wasn't an insult. I don't hold you as one. All you were posting were anecdotes that supported the idea that lots of people don't believe in hell. My upbringing refuted it, which I hold in higher regard. Simple enough.



'cept the misuse didn't invalidate my point, which was general belief in hell as a place and use of it as a fear tactic. Which remain true. I conceded misuse of dogma. But it didn't make me wrong, it just made that word wrong, not the entire point.

Also, framing it in terms of winning and losing is still silly. Do I "win" now because I changed the wording of the point, while still retaining the same meaning? Or do you just feel that much of a need to "win" a debate?

You lose because I never ever challenged the point you made. Your losing doesn't mean I win..I can't "win" this debate because I'm not in it.

(Also, I never said they didn't believe in hell)

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
You lose because I never ever challenged the point you made.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And yeah, you were refuting the ultimatum by meeting it with all kinds of "well, but {insert group of people} think this" and not addressing the point. It was only when I called you out that you acknowledged it.

...there ya go. So we could play semantics and say you never actually challenged the point. Which is true. But dodging nasty facts about your beliefs until finally forced to own up to them is just as bad. And once you did acknowledge my points, I wrote that you did and said that you were finally agreeing to the point I was making.

But agreeing with me then saying "ha, look, I AM agreeing so you're wrong." only works if I'm accusing you of it after you've conceded the point. Otherwise, it's just shoddy debating.

And lulz. You win. I'm thoroughly and utterly beaten (despite not having anything but "dogma" shown to be false ermm ). I'm honestly shocked that you're being so juvenile about this.

Are you dogmatically telling me what I was debating?

Let me assure you:

I NEVER disagreed with what you said about hell being used as a tool for control.

All I tried to say was that Hell isn't codified by Catholic Dogma.

Thats it.

I was just pointing out that Catholics are allowed to have varied opinions on hell... that was an anecdote- it had nothing to do with Hell being used to inspire fear and gain control over people...

I was purely trying to point out that it wasn't Dogma.

Why are you so determined to tell me I ever tried to debate with you?

You are debating with yourself.

Its not like I was even trying to say that the mistake you made about Dogma was big...I was just pointing out it wasn't Dogma.

That is it.

(Also, when did I dodge what I believe?)

Also, none of my recent posts have been about any "hell debate" other than the fact that I am trying to say I wasn't debating it.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
(Also, when did I dodge what I believe?)

*sigh*

K, if we're really at this stage.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yes, but it's clearly not much of a choice. We're not being forced, but the ultimatum is fairly scary. For example, I was a Christian who knowingly and willingly turned away from God. A considerable percentage of Christian-dom believes me to be going to hell for eternity, regardless of how "good" a person I am. It's not forced belief, but it's alternatives are fairly morbid, no?
Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Many Catholics believe everyone will get into Heaven- regardless of whether they loved God or not...so, really your point is moot.

Sounds like artful dodging to me. Your point is moot doesn't really sound like it's acknowledging it. Once you accepted the point, I relented and acknowledged that we were in agreement on that much. But it had to be worked out of you.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Are you dogmatically telling me what I was debating?

Well it's not dogma technically, since it's not accepted KMC canon, endorsed by Pope Raz. Or...something. But your own words are fairly irrefutable.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
*sigh*

K, if we're really at this stage.

Your're being quite crafty here aren't you.

I said that not to you, but to Leo...





See that bit where Leo says "tell me that YOU believe that people who dont love god will get off scott free in the afterlife then. {obviously you don't}" He is assuming that Catholics believe that people will go to hell if they don't love God, indeed he is quite sure as indicated by the use of the word "obviously". I pointed out that not all Catholics do believe that (note the word SOME). Therefore, by showing that some Catholics do not believe that people will go to hell for not loving God makes his point moot. I did not address the remainder of what he said.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
Sounds like artful dodging to me. Your point is moot doesn't really sound like it's acknowledging it. Once you accepted the point, I relented and acknowledged that we were in agreement on that much. But it had to be worked out of you.

So now we see I didn't dodge it, nor did it have to be worked out of me...indeed I didn't respond to what you said at all. I didn't reply to you until you made the Dogma comment to which i informed you that it wasn't Dogma.

Lulz. Well screw me sideways. His post was about the length of mine, and I took it to be a direct rebuttal of mine.

No craftiness intended. Just an oversight. Apparently you do win (though I'm still right ). My apologies.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Lulz. Well screw me sideways. His post was about the length of mine, and I took it to be a direct rebuttal of mine.

No craftiness intended. Just an oversight. Apparently you do win (though I'm still right ). My apologies.

Haha, well thats that resolved.

Did Jesus say anything about hell? Or was it just invented by the church to be like "ohhh... if you don't join our religion then you shall suffer for all eternity" and people were like "OMG! I don't want that to happen!".

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Did Jesus say anything about hell? Or was it just invented by the church to be like "ohhh... if you don't join our religion then you shall suffer for all eternity" and people were like "OMG! I don't want that to happen!".

He talks about it more than anything else, yes.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
He talks about it more than anything else, yes.

The hell that Jesus was talking about was death. Just look at the word he used.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The hell that Jesus was talking about was death. Just look at the word he used.

This is very true Shakyamunison.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
He talks about it more than anything else, yes.

You are saying Jesus talks about Hell more than anything else?
Are you kidding me? What Bible are you reading?
The Catholic Vulgate?
Because in my Bible he talks more about Love ,Mercy ,Kindness,Grace,Hope,Charity, Tolerance.
How to treat your fellow man and in doing so Glorifying God.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

PLease people check this out.

So was the Hell that we know first talked about by Jesus or the church? Jesus knew WAAAYYYYYYY more about God than some people that thought the earth was at the center of everything (no offense to Christians, but the medieval church was in many ways responsible for the death of thousands-millions of "witches" and "heretics", but the current church is fine )?

bump

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
You are saying Jesus talks about Hell more than anything else?
Are you kidding me? What Bible are you reading?
The Catholic Vulgate?
Because in my Bible he talks more about Love ,Mercy ,Kindness,Grace,Hope,Charity, Tolerance.
How to treat your fellow man and in doing so Glorifying God.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

PLease people check this out.

Satan's greatest achievement was convincing man he didn't exist...

This "no-hell" thing must be his second...

Mark 9
43And if thy hand cause thee to fall, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched,

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Satan's greatest achievement was convincing man he didn't exist...

This "no-hell" thing must be his second...

Mark 9
43And if thy hand cause thee to fall, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed than, having two hands, to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched,

Catholics

Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief (Born into sin) That He may show Mercy upon ALL"

You give one passage and say Jesus talks more about hell than anything else.

The only punishment is SHEOL,The Grave, Death(No Eternal Life with God) NOTHINGNESS!!!

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So was the Hell that we know first talked about by Jesus or the church? Jesus knew WAAAYYYYYYY more about God than some people that thought the earth was at the center of everything (no offense to Christians, but the medieval church was in many ways responsible for the death of thousands-millions of "witches" and "heretics", but the current church is fine )?

The Catholic Vulgate is the 1st to mention this.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Catholics

Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief (Born into sin) That He may show Mercy upon ALL"

You give one passage and say Jesus talks more about hell than anything else.

The only punishment is SHEOL,The Grave, Death(No Eternal Life with God) NOTHINGNESS!!!
Check out Romans 2:7-9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9

As for language what about Gehenna or Tartarus?

(Are you rebutting Jesus with Paul? Interesting for one with views such as yourself.)

((P.S I am cheating and just throwing the Wiki-examples at you...but I have a few million books on this by real theologians we could get out?))

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
What about Gehenna or Tartarus?

(Are you rebutting Jesus with Paul? Interesting for one with views such as yourself.)

No Sir I was rebutting HELL with Paul.

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
No Sir I was rebutting HELL with Paul.

A man once went to Padre Pio and said,
"Father, I won't be going to confession any more..."
Padre Pio asked the man why, had he lost his faith?
"No" replied the man, "But I don't need to confess, because I don't believe in Hell."
"Oh? You'll believe in it, when you get there" replied Padre Pio.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
A man once went to Padre Pio and said,
"Father, I won't be going to confession any more..."
Padre Pio asked the man why, had he lost his faith?
"No" replied the man, "But I don't need to confess, because I don't believe in Hell."
"Oh? You'll believe in it, when you get there" replied Padre Pio.

And the man laughed saying, "That all you got? Well, see you Thursday."

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And the man laughed saying, "That all you got? Well, see you Thursday."

Meh, it worked in the middle ages...

The man will be dead now, wonder if he did go there in the end...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Check out Romans 2:7-9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9

As for language what about Gehenna or Tartarus?

(Are you rebutting Jesus with Paul? Interesting for one with views such as yourself.)

((P.S I am cheating and just throwing the Wiki-examples at you...but I have a few million books on this by real theologians we could get out?))

Romans 2:8-9 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth Evil." This is in regards to life on earth the consequences of disobedience in mortal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of his power" "Destruction" from the presence of the Lords glory. Again Sheol (Separation from god)(Death, Nothingness.) Not eternal Hell

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
Romans 2:8-9 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,indignation and wrath. Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth Evil." This is in regards to life on earth the consequences of disobedience in mortal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the Glory of his power" "Destruction" from the presence of the Lords glory. Again Sheol (Separation from god)(Death, Nothingness.) Not eternal Hell

It kinda...contradicts everything Jesus was saying then doesn't it...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
It kinda...contradicts everything Jesus was saying then doesn't it...


No ....Not at all!!!

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
No ....Not at all!!!

It all boils down to interpretation, but that is the wonder of Christ's grace, we are all saved regardless of our human interpretations.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
It all boils down to interpretation, but that is the wonder of Christ's grace, we are all saved regardless of our human interpretations.

What about the people that go to Hell? What about Hitler? Or Stalin? Or Richard Dawkins? Or Satan?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What about the people that go to Hell? What about Hitler? Or Stalin? Or Richard Dawkins? Or Satan?

The rules do not apply....

DUH!

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
It all boils down to interpretation, but that is the wonder of Christ's grace, we are all saved regardless of our human interpretations.

I'm dumbfounded that you said this Gav. That has been my point all along.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What about the people that go to Hell? What about Hitler? Or Stalin? Or Richard Dawkins? Or Satan?

I was referring to Christians, I apologise- they are going to hell possibly...

I dunno how strict the Big Man is with it...

Originally posted by Lycanthrope
I'm dumbfounded that you said this Gav. That has been my point all along.

I have to come back to this, I lied there is a hell.

(Yes, if your not a believer you are probably going there.)

only a sin if you have heard the gospels and dismissed them.... but if you are ignorant you are forgiven

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
only a sin if you have heard the gospels and dismissed them.... but if you are ignorant you are forgiven

Only a sin if the god of the bible is real.

i was assuming that it was based on the bible and enterpretation...
with what was written inside.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i was assuming that it was based on the bible and enterpretation...
with what was written inside.

Are you staying inside the box?

i really shouldnt ppl tend to sufficate and die :P

this is what happens if you think inside the box