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This is a little theory that i have been toying with for quite some time in my head. If time is a dimension, like length, width, and height, than wouldn't humans technically have a destiny? Like, everything is supposed to be at a certain place at a certain time, which is, if you think about it, destiny.
The best analogy i can think of is like a movie. Things are going to happen, and have happened, and no matter how many time you rewind or fast forward, it will still be the same. Now, i have no real proof for this, so i am wondering if this has ever been proposed by the scientific community. and if so, what were the results?

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
This is a little theory that i have been toying with for quite some time in my head. If time is a dimension, like length, width, and height, than wouldn't humans technically have a destiny? Like, everything is supposed to be at a certain place at a certain time, which is, if you think about it, destiny.
The best analogy i can think of is like a movie. Things are going to happen, and have happened, and no matter how many time you rewind or fast forward, it will still be the same. Now, i have no real proof for this, so i am wondering if this has ever been proposed by the scientific community. and if so, what were the results?

The only problem is that the future is chaotic. So, whenever you rewind and go forward, the "film" is always different.

No, but it wouldn't be different. If you freeze time for one moment, and look at it, than go forward any given amount of time, and then look at your frozen moment in time (a photograph, btw), it will still be the same. So the past falls neatly into place. What i am trying to say is taht there is only ONE past, one direction for the past to go in, so wouldn't it be reasonable to say that there is only one future as well? That no matter what you do, you cant change anything because it is predetermined to happen, if time were a physical dimension? There is no "alternate ending", there is only ONE future. and it is jsut a series of photographs that have not been uncovered, or shown, but are still there. i guess i should explain what i mean.

Imagine a line of photographs. this is every moment in history. Some of the photographs we can see, the others are upside down. as time passes, the next photograph of time is turned over. Now, that photo was never different when it was upside down, we just couldn't see it. so then would time be a series of predetermined events, photographs, which are always the same picture, whether or not they are upside down or right side up, that we just cant see until they come into happening?

He's describing determinism, if I understand him correctly. He's just talking about it in a very confusing manner. Not exactly revolutionary, but not wrong either. It's probably that he just hasn't had exposure to such thoughts before, so it's hard to form it into a cogent opinion.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He's describing determinism, if I understand him correctly. He's just talking about it in a very confusing manner. Not exactly revolutionary, but not wrong either. It's probably that he just hasn't had exposure to such thoughts before, so it's hard to form it into a cogent opinion. YES! it has just been swirling around in my head, and i have never put it into words before, so it is a bit tough. damn, and i thought i was original! i'll look determinism up.

But if you mean what I think you do, then I agree.

It's also know as causality. The conditions in one moment lead inexorably to the next. And the series of events could be no different. Like your movie analogy. If we have a decision to make, we make a certain decision (maybe we choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream). Now rewind existence to the moment before the choice, and we don't have knowledge of the previous iteration. The person would choose chocolate again. Run it a million times. Chocolate every time. Because the forces surrounding and preceding the event (the person's brain function as well as environment around them) could only lead to one conclusion. Otherwise, you have an occurrence without a cause, which is logically impossible.

Christians hate the idea, because it messes with their concept of free will, which states that we could always choose anything, presumably. Personally, some divine randomness would, to me, undermine my ability to make my own decisions. My decisions are determined, yes, but they are my own....everything that makes up "me" is responsible for the decision. In that sense, I'm free because nothing impedes on my decisions.

Too often people associate determinism with fatalism. When I discuss it with others, they seem to take it as a depressing view of life. But we don't know what is determined by the past, so life is still exciting, surprising, joyful, etc. or whatever else we make it to be for us. It's not inherently good/bad. It's just how things are. How we react to it, either positively or negatively, is still up to us.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
But if you mean what I think you do, then I agree.

It's also know as causality. The conditions in one moment lead inexorably to the next. And the series of events could be no different. Like your movie analogy. If we have a decision to make, we make a certain decision (maybe we choose chocolate over vanilla ice cream). Now rewind existence to the moment before the choice, and we don't have knowledge of the previous iteration. The person would choose chocolate again. Run it a million times. Chocolate every time. Because the forces surrounding and preceding the event (the person's brain function as well as environment around them) could only lead to one conclusion. Otherwise, you have an occurrence without a cause, which is logically impossible.

Christians hate the idea, because it messes with their concept of free will, which states that we could always choose anything, presumably. Personally, some divine randomness would, to me, undermine my ability to make my own decisions. My decisions are determined, yes, but they are my own....everything that makes up "me" is responsible for the decision. In that sense, I'm free because nothing impedes on my decisions.

Too often people associate determinism with fatalism. We don't know what is determined by the past, so life is still exciting, surprising, joyful, etc. or whatever else we make it to be for us. YES! that is exactly it! we still have free will, but not RANDOM will! thats a better way of putting it! Now my question is, if time is technically so preset, is it possible to see the future?

A similar question was once posed to Stephen Hawking. His answer was fairly long-winded, but hopefully I can paraphrase:

Say we made a computer so advanced that it could analyze all pertinent forces and predict something, like the chocloate/vanilla of earlier, and it comes back "chocolate". At the time of the prediction, that is true. But the act of prediting "chocolate" changes the system in which chocolate was true...in other words, the act of predicting something could very well change the outcome. So the prediction would have to account for its own prediction, and then the prediction of the prediction, and so on into infinity.

So relative, imprecise predictions based on physical forces should be feasible, but exact ones never could be. Which is somewhat comforting, since it means no future generation will, say, have its future laid out for it already.

And I'd also hesitate to use the term "free will" in regards to determinism. The way it is traditionally understood has nothing to do with causality/determinism. Philosophers who espouse determinism sometimes use "free" but it requires re-defining the term.

hmm. all very true. never thought of it like that. it is an interesting subject, nevertheless.

Even if the future is laid out, that doesn't limit your so called "free will" as your free will is what will create the future...

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
YES! it has just been swirling around in my head, and i have never put it into words before, so it is a bit tough. damn, and i thought i was original! i'll look determinism up.

How could you have never heard of determinism?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How could you have never heard of determinism?

I think he's still on the path of working out various thoughts and ideas, you can't hold the fact that he has things to learn against him...(though, I do wonder how long it will take him to convert to Christianity)

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I think he's still on the path of working out various thoughts and ideas, you can't hold the fact that he has things to learn against him...(though, I do wonder how long it will take him to convert to Christianity)

If he worked out determinism in his head I don't think he's going to convert to Christianity very quickly since he's looking for answers by his own thought process not from God.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If he worked out determinism in his head I don't think he's going to convert to Christianity very quickly since he's looking for answers by his own thought process not from God.

Oh cummon, like you've never had an "idea" which you later rejected upon reasearching a codified version of it.

He'll branch off from determinism and end up exploring various fields of thought before settling into one which he thinks provides all the neccessary answers to explain his experiences.

Its likely, at some point in his life he will believe in God...or atleast be very very open to the possibility, even if only for a short while.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Oh cummon, like you've never had an "idea" which you later rejected upon reasearching a codified version of it.

Nope. I'm always right.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
He'll branch off from determinism and end up exploring various fields of thought before settling into one which he thinks provides all the neccessary answers to explain his experiences.

Its likely, at some point in his life he will believe in God...or atleast be very very open to the possibility, even if only for a short while.

Or he might not srug

I would say someone who tries to resolve the world by logical means is probably less likely to end up turning to God.

I think he'll give up on the logic thing...and explore other avenues...it is the logical thing to do Captain.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I think he'll give up on the logic thing...and explore other avenues...it is the logical thing to do Captain.

T-that doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
T-that doesn't make sense.

Its the paradox of logic...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Oh cummon, like you've never had an "idea" which you later rejected upon reasearching a codified version of it.

He'll branch off from determinism and end up exploring various fields of thought before settling into one which he thinks provides all the neccessary answers to explain his experiences.

Its likely, at some point in his life he will believe in God...or atleast be very very open to the possibility, even if only for a short while.

...this response is, well, probably true. Just based on the fact that the vast majority of the population isn't atheist. But your reasons for him coming to such a conclusion seem wildly self-affirming.

...

Anyway, I don't feel like straying too far from the topic. Determinism. It is correct. Anyone care to debate?

biscuits

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Anyway, I don't feel like straying too far from the topic. Determinism. It is correct. Anyone care to debate?

biscuits

Determinism. It is incorrect.

(touche biscuits)

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Anyway, I don't feel like straying too far from the topic. Determinism. It is correct. Anyone care to debate?

biscuits

Are answers are predeterined though . . .

to claim atomistic determinism is correct is premature. While it appears there will be a unifying theory, our current ability to measure things at sub atomic levels (while accurate) does not necessarily indicate that there is no variance in how a cause produces effect. I've heard quantum physicists talk about electron "jumps" being 100% random, not just our inability to measure it.

I'm certainly not making the argument for free will, but to say that universal principals of cause and effect prove determinism lacks a unification theory that allows us to make predictions about sub atomic particle movement.

That's just the predetermined universe talking. Fight the power!

pfft, tell that to my premotor cortex

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...this response is, well, probably true. Just based on the fact that the vast majority of the population isn't atheist. But your reasons for him coming to such a conclusion seem wildly self-affirming.

...

Anyway, I don't feel like straying too far from the topic. Determinism. It is correct. Anyone care to debate?

biscuits

First prove that the future exists.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
First prove that the future exists.

Wait . . .





. . .





. . . there, did ya see it?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wait . . .





. . .





. . . there, did ya see it?

No.

Determinism would be destiny in philosophical terms, IMO.

Wouldn't destiny in scientific terms be heat death via entropy?

Originally posted by Mindship
Determinism would be destiny in philosophical terms, IMO.

Wouldn't destiny in scientific terms be heat death via entropy?

nitpicker.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
nitpicker.

Originally posted by Mindship
Wouldn't destiny in scientific terms be heat death via entropy?

not necessarily

we cannot say for certain that something won't happen to change the current projections.

Originally posted by inimalist
we cannot say for certain that something won't happen to change the current projections. Big Rip via dark energy?

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/big_rip_030306.html

Originally posted by Mindship
Big Rip via dark energy?

what if, in 200000 years, we develop technology that stabilizes the universe, much like we are trying to stabilize our ecosystem on Earth?

LOL

great article

the most repulsive idea ever!

Originally posted by Mindship
Big Rip via dark energy?

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/big_rip_030306.html

That was a great read. Too bad the person who came up with the idea lacked the ability to create a more badass name for his theory. Big Rip..? Common..I mean seriously?

Originally posted by inimalist
to claim atomistic determinism is correct is premature. While it appears there will be a unifying theory, our current ability to measure things at sub atomic levels (while accurate) does not necessarily indicate that there is no variance in how a cause produces effect. I've heard quantum physicists talk about electron "jumps" being 100% random, not just our inability to measure it.

I'm certainly not making the argument for free will, but to say that universal principals of cause and effect prove determinism lacks a unification theory that allows us to make predictions about sub atomic particle movement.

Even if such things were determined to be totally random, it wouldn't validate commonly accepted concepts of free will, especially since the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics has been either roundly debunked (my opinion), or at the very least we've been given equally as logical alternatives to it that don't involve human interaction/choice affecting quantum superpositions.

And M-theorists might even say that it may seem random, but all possible outcomes of superpositions are reconciled, just in different universes, and within those universes whichever outcome happened is consistent with with the deterministic nature of the rest of that universe.

So I'll agree with you that we can't know for sure, but won't concede my position that determinism is the most logical and likely method of our existence. And religious definitions of free will are still inconsistent with anything resembling reason.

it would be interesting to look at time non linearly. for instance, humans would look pretty stupid blaming things on the past etc.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it would be interesting to look at time non linearly. for instance, humans would look pretty stupid blaming things on the past etc.

How precisely would you do that?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
How precisely would you do that?

Magic. Divine Gift. Awesomeness.