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Just exactly how immense is your imagination?

Remember this thread:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365800&highlight=Which+is+bigger+forumid%3A75

Well, this one is more focus on imagination and what we can do with it.

As of today we can write stories, build things, expand art...what else can the human imagination is capable of...

How will our future generations and their technology will be able to go with their powers of imaginations?

I doubt we will EVER be limited.



Challenge THAT!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Just exactly how immense is your imagination?

Remember this thread:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365800&highlight=Which+is+bigger+forumid%3A75

Well, this one is more focus on imagination and what we can do with it.

As of today we can write stories, build things, expand art...what else can the human imagination is capable of...

How will our future generations and their technology will be able to go with their powers of imaginations?

I doubt we will EVER be limited.



Challenge THAT! What are you trying to say?

Originally posted by Bardock42
What are you trying to say?

That humans will eventually be gods.

Or

At least thats what imagination can do.


HA!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
That humans will eventually be gods.

Or

At least thats what imagination can do.


HA!

How do you define "Gods" and how exactly do you relate imagination to it?

Imaginations can be controlled by the media.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How do you define "Gods"....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gods

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Imaginations can be controlled by the media.

I was thinking more like opinions or decisions...but the imagination?

That might be different.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I was thinking more like opinions or decisions...but the imagination?

That might be different.

I am fairly confident that it can and does.

Our imaginations aren't that wild- they are bound by what we know and learn.

I'd actually focus Gav's point a bit more to put it like this:

Our thoughts are limited by that which we can symbolically represent. The most widely used symbolic representation is spoken/written language. Others can used gestures, pictures, symbols, etc. to represent thoughts.

Take for instance the words "disinterested" and "apathetic." Similar meanings, but subtly different in how we use and perceive them. There's a fair amount of literature to suggest that, for a particular example like this, we will have a hard time feeling "apathetic" as opposed to "disinterested" (the emotions associated with those words) until we understand its meaning. The ability to internally represent the emotion via a spoken word gives us access to that emotion. The ability to feel apathetic is learned through symbolic representation, rather than vice-versa, where we assign labels to emotions that bubble up instinctively. The biological responses may be there before a label, but we don't experience something until we have a way to internally represent it.

The common cry against this is something like small babies, who undoubtedly feel "happy" and "sad" despite not knowings such words. True, but we can't limit internal representation to established languages. Babies have internal symbols that help them mimic happiness (their mental images of food, parents, etc.), though the emotions are clearly not as nuanced as those that language allows for. But whereas we may eventually generalize "happy" into a single emotion due to language, they may even have similar but not identical feelings associated with "food-happy" or "dad-happy" etc. etc. due to differing representations of such events.

Moral of the story: want a bigger imagination? Get a bigger vocabulary, and read as much as possible. It falls on deaf ears in the classroom, but I believe it to be very true.

As for WD's question, our imaginations are already gods. Give our imaginations control over reality and there'd be no limit to its ends. It's just our bodies that have yet to catch up, as well as the physical world around us limiting those imaginations.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'd actually focus Gav's point a bit more to put it like this:

Our thoughts are limited by that which we can symbolically represent. The most widely used symbolic representation is spoken/written language. Others can used gestures, pictures, symbols, etc. to represent thoughts.

Take for instance the words "disinterested" and "apathetic." Similar meanings, but subtly different in how we use and perceive them. There's a fair amount of literature to suggest that, for a particular example like this, we will have a hard time feeling "apathetic" as opposed to "disinterested" (the emotions associated with those words) until we understand its meaning. The ability to internally represent the emotion via a spoken word gives us access to that emotion. The ability to feel apathetic is learned through symbolic representation, rather than vice-versa, where we assign labels to emotions that bubble up instinctively. The biological responses may be there before a label, but we don't experience something until we have a way to internally represent it.

The common cry against this is something like small babies, who undoubtedly feel "happy" and "sad" despite not knowings such words. True, but we can't limit internal representation to established languages. Babies have internal symbols that help them mimic happiness (their mental images of food, parents, etc.), though the emotions are clearly not as nuanced as those that language allows for. But whereas we may eventually generalize "happy" into a single emotion due to language, they may even have similar but not identical feelings associated with "food-happy" or "dad-happy" etc. etc. due to differing representations of such events.

Moral of the story: want a bigger imagination? Get a bigger vocabulary, and read as much as possible. It falls on deaf ears in the classroom, but I believe it to be very true.

As for WD's question, our imaginations are already gods. Give our imaginations control over reality and there'd be no limit to its ends. It's just our bodies that have yet to catch up, as well as the physical world around us limiting those imaginations.

I would imagine that if reality is infinite, then human imagination must be infinite, because it will always have something more to play with.

On the other hand...Challenge THAT! Imagine nothing.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Challenge THAT!

Draw an animal that is totally unique to your imagination- it can't be based on anything you have seen before or have knowledge of.

Thus you can't draw a unicorn with a snakehead on its butt- because you have knowledge of those things.

Draw something, totally and utterly new in every respect...

In this exercise your imagination MUST NOT be limited by existing shapes, existing animals in reality or mythology or existing materials.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Draw an animal that is totally unique to your imagination- it can't be based on anything you have seen before or have knowledge of.

Thus you can't draw a unicorn with a snakehead on its butt- because you have knowledge of those things.

Draw something, totally and utterly new in every respect...

In this exercise your imagination MUST NOT be limited by existing shapes, existing animals in reality or mythology or existing materials.

thats a little unfair

the category "animal" supposes some physical things about the organism, such that requiring new shapes would probably make whatever was created incompatible with the definition.

I agree with you otherwise

Once again Digi shares a very illuminating opinion here...very much appreciated and good work my good man.

(Bardock42 pay attention)

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Moral of the story: want a bigger imagination? Get a bigger vocabulary, and read as much as possible. It falls on deaf ears in the classroom, but I believe it to be very true.

As for WD's question, our imaginations are already gods. Give our imaginations control over reality and there'd be no limit to its ends. It's just our bodies that have yet to catch up, as well as the physical world around us limiting those imaginations.



I can easily shift this to a Kantian argument and use a Priori

The question would then be...how can I illustrated to you such animal existence inside my mind and putting in on paper. It would mean I have produce his existence...If I can prove his existence...then it's no longer an animal unique or something I never seen. Becaue I giving it shape or substance. To give it shape would contradict your request of something base on anything I never seen or have prior knowledge of it.

You're not putting restrictions or limits to the mind. What you're doing here is some kind of way transform an idea into something concrete. The mechanics of how to transform a part of imagination into something solid isn't imposible...complex maybe...but possible...who knows there maybe ways to do it. But maybe we don't have the skills to do it.

It's like when you see this number:

2

How does your mind picture such object? Do you see the number? or two objects that represent the quantity of the number?

Haha! 313

Haha, but his imagination isn't limited!

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Once again Digi shares a very illuminating opinion here...very much appreciated and good work my good man.

(Bardock42 pay attention)





I can easily shift this to a Kantian argument and use a Priori

The question would then be...how can I illustrated to you such animal existence inside my mind and putting in on paper. It would mean I have produce his existence...If I can prove his existence...then it's no longer an animal unique or something I never seen. Becaue I giving it shape or substance. To give it shape would contradict your request of something base on anything I never seen or have prior knowledge of it.

You're not putting restrictions or limits to the mind. What you're doing here is some kind of way transform an idea into something concrete. The mechanics of how to transform a part of imagination into something solid isn't imposible...complex maybe...but possible...who knows there maybe ways to do it. But maybe we don't have the skills to do it.

It's like when you see this number:

2

How does your mind picture such object? Do you see the number? or two objects that represent the quantity of the number?

Haha! 313

So, when are you going to draw the animal?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Haha, but his imagination isn't limited!



So, when are you going to draw the animal?

When I have the proper skills and tools to pull such a feat.

And no....paper and pencil is too simple.

This animal inside my head maybe TOO large to ge put it on paper.

I Might even have to use a paper the size of the planet or even the solar system



313

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
When I have the proper skills and tools to pull such a feat.

And no....paper and pencil is too simple.

This animal inside my head maybe TOO large to ge put it on paper.

I Might even have to use a paper the size of the planet or even the solar system



313

Your lying to me aren't you?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Your lying to me aren't you?

Nu-uh!

Remember this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365800&highlight=Which+is+bigger+forumid%3A75

If the mind is indeed bigger than the universe.

Then no way I could draw the animal.

So you will have to enter my mind to see it.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Nu-uh!

Remember this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=365800&highlight=Which+is+bigger+forumid%3A75

If the mind is indeed bigger than the universe.

Then no way I could draw the animal.

So you will have to enter my mind to see it.

Very well...

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Draw an animal that is totally unique to your imagination- it can't be based on anything you have seen before or have knowledge of.

Thus you can't draw a unicorn with a snakehead on its butt- because you have knowledge of those things.

Draw something, totally and utterly new in every respect...

In this exercise your imagination MUST NOT be limited by existing shapes, existing animals in reality or mythology or existing materials.

The only way to do such a thing, possibly, would be to draw a 5-dimensional creature or some such. Something that is literally beyond our current ability to perceive. Because everything else comes from pre-rendered symbols that we internalize, as my earlier post alludes to.

But that isn't to say the mind has theoretical limits on its imagination. We have practical limits, since we can't and haven't perceived everything. But since the universe, math, etc. includes infinites, our minds would technically never run out of new things to think or perceive. I.E. no limits.

In theory only, however. In reality, I'd imagine we have a storage capacity for our minds as well as an inability to perceive all kinds of different things.

I can't imagine it.

shakya wins.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I can't imagine it.

I can!

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Your lying to me aren't you?

"you're" and he is.

And while I do think that Digi has often very illuminating insights, your thread and posts are still utter garbage, WD.

I guess that makes you Oscar The Grouch...you love to go through my garbage.




One fine stroke....you know...

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I guess that makes you Oscar The Grouch...you love to go through my garbage.




One fine stroke....you know...

No idea what you are talking about.

You never seen Sesame Street in your life?.....Oh, it's you...nvm.





Let's continue...

Imagination and are there limits....anyone?

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
You never seen Sesame Street in your life?.....Oh, it's you...nvm.





Let's continue...

Imagination and are there limits....anyone? Yeah there are. As Gav pointed out quite decently and you disregarded with silliness (as usual).

And I have heard of Oscar the Grouch (through The Office, but nevermind that), I have no idea what "One fine stroke" means or refers to.

Digi, i was reading what you said, would you say imagination is limited by our knowledge. Therefore to expand ones knowledge one is also explaining their ability to imagine new things?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Digi, i was reading what you said, would you say imagination is limited by our knowledge. Therefore to expand ones knowledge one is also explaining their ability to imagine new things?

Basically, yeah.

Take an emotion. Any will do. Happiness, maybe. We have the word for it, and we have experiences of happiness, which aren't happiness itself but are manifestations of it. So there's a frame of reference. And the events are the physical, tangible way of representing that feeling, along with the word(s) associated with it. Your lover's face, for example, might be an internal representation of it...part of the meta-language that allows you to understand and imagine happiness. We imagine in symbols, not in literal emotions...we can imagine happiness, but it's an abstract. A collection of words and symbols that we play together, not something that can be understood in pure ethereal form.

Now say you knew the word, but hadn't experienced happiness. You could imagine the word, perhaps its function in a sentence. But you couldn't imagine happiness the emotion. No frame of reference. No knowledge of it. And until that experience occurs, you couldn't spontaneously generate it on your own (i.e. imagine it).

In other words (which re-caps my earlier points) consciousness (and therefore imagination) are only as broad as our language, so long as we interpret language in its broadest sense of symbolic representation, not merely spoken language. Otherwise there is no frame of reference, nothing we can imagine. No "pure" abstract consciousness within us. Then to gain knowledge, experience, words, whatever, is to expand the limits of our consciousness.

So yes, the two are tied together interchangeably imo. Glad you're interested.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Draw an animal that is totally unique to your imagination- it can't be based on anything you have seen before or have knowledge of.

Thus you can't draw a unicorn with a snakehead on its butt- because you have knowledge of those things.

Draw something, totally and utterly new in every respect...

In this exercise your imagination MUST NOT be limited by existing shapes, existing animals in reality or mythology or existing materials.
Simpler to state is...
Originally posted by Mindship
Imagine nothing.


Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
...you say imagination is limited by our knowledge. Therefore to expand ones knowledge one is also explaining their ability to imagine new things? ** sigh **Originally posted by Mindship
I would imagine that if reality is infinite, then human imagination must be infinite, because it will always have something more to play with.

Even if imagination can be "infinite" it doesn't mean that there aren't limits to it.

Originally posted by Mindship
Simpler to state is...



** sigh **

Yours is crap, mines is good.

My wife currently teaches grade four students. When she tries to get them to do some creative writing or use their imagination, she continually gets regurgitated ideas of video games, cartoons or t.v. shows.

Every year this seems to be getting more and more prevalent.

So I would think that, currently, ineffectual parenting and corporate marketing are putting limits on the imaginations of children. Interesting to see where this trend leads.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Even if imagination can be "infinite" it doesn't mean that there aren't limits to it. Interesting thing about Infinity: it should include limits, otherwise there is something "outside of infinity," in which case it really isn't infinite.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Yours is crap, mines is good. I can type mine out faster.

Originally posted by Mindship
Interesting thing about Infinity: it should include limits, otherwise there is something "outside of infinity," in which case it really isn't infinite.

I can type mine out faster.

That's not really correct though. For example take numbers. The Natural Numbers are infinite, yet they have many limits (for example no negative numbers). So, infinity, doesn't imply everythingness or lack of limits.

Which is funny considering the root of the word. Still true though

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's not really correct though. For example take numbers. The Natural Numbers are infinite, yet they have many limits (for example no negative numbers). So, infinity, doesn't imply everythingness or lack of limits.I should've qualified...
In the case of natural numbers, I would call this an example of linear infinity, and what you're saying is true. It's rather one-dimensional ("1, 2, 3...", therefore things can be "outside" of it (eg, neg #s) w/o contradicting its infiniteness. But I was referring to (for lack of a better term) "full-dimensional" infinity.

Originally posted by Mindship
I should've qualified...
In the case of natural numbers, I would call this an example of linear infinity, and what you're saying is true. It's rather one-dimensional ("1, 2, 3...", therefore things can be "outside" of it (eg, neg #s) w/o contradicting its infiniteness. But I was referring to (for lack of a better term) "full-dimensional" infinity. Even assuming that this infinity is a sort of everything exists (which is quite hard to even phrase in words), I still don't think that it means that imagination itself is limited. The existence of such an "infinity" does not mean that our imagination can grasp and conceive of it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Even assuming that this infinity is a sort of everything exists (which is quite hard to even phrase in words), I still don't think that it means that imagination itself is limited. Agreed, and I believe this was my initial point: if (as Digi elucidated) imagination is dependent on inner representation (concrete or symbolic) of our experiences, then an unending supply of experiences would permit an unending supply of what can be imagined (ie, there's more stuff for imagination to play with). Our imagination just might not be infinite in the same sort of way (linear, as opposed to full).

It is hard to phrase in words. Let me throw this into the discussion: What does it say about imagination--about human beings--that we are even aware of the idea of infinity, if being unable to actually imagine/envision it?

(Personally, I always found the following to be the closest thing to imagining infinity: the many-worlds hypothesis. To imagine that universes are constantly splitting off from one another everytime any given atom zigs instead of zags...I find my mind just stops dead in its tracks after a second or so of trying).

Originally posted by KharmaDog
My wife currently teaches grade four students. When she tries to get them to do some creative writing or use their imagination, she continually gets regurgitated ideas of video games, cartoons or t.v. shows.

Every year this seems to be getting more and more prevalent.

So I would think that, currently, ineffectual parenting and corporate marketing are putting limits on the imaginations of children. Interesting to see where this trend leads.

Agreed.

Fun thread! I remember it.

I need more bodies to encompass my imagination....poor, poor meeeeeeee.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
I need more bodies to encompass my imagination....poor, poor meeeeeeee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgxK_LcQEHI



group

band


Oh btw where is Yokohama??? LOL

Don't rightly know, but I bet it's where people say "gendurr."

no, imagination is the ONE thing on which there TRULY are NO limits at all.

I guess that us humans are the only living things that can make sense of anything. If you believe that imagination is limitless then it is and if you don't then yeah.

I believe that you could imagine anything only ones self limits thier imagination... Another thing, I believe that imagining something is an alternative of finding an answer... For instance,
You can not really answer "what is everything"... But you could imagine what it could be... But I may not be right... I'm just an ignorant teen

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Draw an animal that is totally unique to your imagination- it can't be based on anything you have seen before or have knowledge of.

Thus you can't draw a unicorn with a snakehead on its butt- because you have knowledge of those things.

Draw something, totally and utterly new in every respect...

In this exercise your imagination MUST NOT be limited by existing shapes, existing animals in reality or mythology or existing materials. How is the synthesization of two existing animals not imagining. A living unicorn with a snake's butt does not exist but I can still IMAGINE it, and this creature is not a horse with a horn, nor a snake but something different. Would that not be a new organism?

Originally posted by WanderingDroid
Once again Digi shares a very illuminating opinion here...very much appreciated and good work my good man.

(Bardock42 pay attention)





I can easily shift this to a Kantian argument and use a Priori

The question would then be...how can I illustrated to you such animal existence inside my mind and putting in on paper. It would mean I have produce his existence...If I can prove his existence...then it's no longer an animal unique or something I never seen. Becaue I giving it shape or substance. To give it shape would contradict your request of something base on anything I never seen or have prior knowledge of it.

You're not putting restrictions or limits to the mind. What you're doing here is some kind of way transform an idea into something concrete. The mechanics of how to transform a part of imagination into something solid isn't imposible...complex maybe...but possible...who knows there maybe ways to do it. But maybe we don't have the skills to do it.

It's like when you see this number:

2

How does your mind picture such object? Do you see the number? or two objects that represent the quantity of the number?

Haha! 313


the number 2 makes me think of endless Possibilities and peace

No one but us alone can use our imagination or tell us to limit.Inless they can read our brains which is quite scary.

The Only Limitation Of Your Imagination Is Yourself.

Originally posted by sponge7226
The Only Limitation Of Your Imagination Is Yourself.

Try accurately imagining a 4 dimensional object. Start with a 4D cube.

I'm sure a drug can