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Week 8: Washington D.C.
Duration: Wednesday, November 19th @ 10am thru Sunday, November 23nd @ 12am)

id369/Kandy Vs. Scoob/Leo

Judges: Illadelph, V, Badabing

Battlefield - Washington DC

Prep Zone - Stark Towers.

Team - Too Many Guys!!!

Iron Man
Kane
Techno
Magik
Peacemaker
Alfred
Cho
Maya

Prep:

FYI, the Techno Robot is the mind of Fixer up until the point where he was killed by the Elements of Doom housed in a mechanical body, so all feats of Fixer's will be as valid as the Techno robot's feats.

Techno connects himself to the brains of his entire team in the same way fixer was mentally attached to his tech pack, the difference being that Techno's robotic body is far more advanced than the comparatively simple pack with far greater speed and storage facilities.

What this means is that we can upload the memories of everyone on the team directly into Techno's supercomputer body. As this upload is taking place, priority will initially be placed on certain aspects, such as Stark's tech creations/discoveries, this will allow Techno to further upgrade himself on the fly and equate to even faster upload/download speeds.

On top of this Techno will simultaneously be linking himself to Kane's technological parts and Iron Man's armour, copying schematics, scanning & recording data from all systems and using the additional computer power to expedite this whole process.

http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=08techmergejw6.jpg

This may sound like a lot to be doing with a single character, but as he is literally a super computer who is capable of incredible processing speeds and multitasking, this should only take moments.

http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29multitaskfb4.jpg

Fixer was able to upload his entire consciousness into a foreign computer with only a a few seconds notice (which is how Fixer became the Techno robot in the first place)

1. http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01yv6.jpg
2. http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02cn5.jpg

With the experience of this along with immensely upgraded calculative abilities & interface technologies (which now also include the systems Stark uses to mentally control the Iron Man armour and Kane's cybernetic link to his mechanical prosthetics) everything we're claiming to do will be childsplay.

Within moments Techno will have backed up all information from every member of his team and stored it within his own mainframe.

All this information is now backed up in engram files in the same way Fixer backed his own memories up inside his old tech pack.

With this complete (taking maybe a minute) Techno now has all the knowledge and experiences of everyone on his team (without having to kill them ... unlike some people)

This knowledge, along with he ability to reform his body into new devices/weapons, means that he now has the ability to form any device ever created by Stark (size restrictions permitting) virtually instantly:

Early robot form Techno:
http://img505.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20shiftformsod5.jpg

Forms weapons in moments:
http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=14growsweaponsgq3.jpg

Schematics = tech:
http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10schematicsun8.jpg

"Ogre" Techno scans and shifts new weaponry:
1. http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26weaponshk6.jpg
2. http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27resultrs0.jpg

Now you have to remember that Techno has now incorporated Stark's nano-tech and Kane's liquid metal tech into himself, which will make any transformation he makes from now on smoother and faster.

OK, so like we said, that's about one minute chewed up there.

Kane can "download" powers of characters whose power signatures are known to weapon X.

There's a list of the members of Weapon X here:
http://www.comicvine.com/weapon-x/65-5018/

Here he is using a couple of them in training:

http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dl2ht6.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dl1ld4.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dl3vb2.jpg

Techno has copied this ability directly from Kane and will also have full access to these abilities.

They both download superspeed (power signature of Aurora)

____________


We now amalgamate some folks together:

Techno + Magik + Cho

Iron Man + Weapon X

Peacemaker + Alfred + Maya

Tony is in his latest armour, which, when amalgamating with Kane, absorbs the ability of his liquid metal appendages and is able to reform at will.

Peacemaker & Co are given the next most recent armour along with a cybernetic link to control it, it's computers are then given the memories/knowledge that Techno absorbed from Tony, which means that there will be a copy of Tony Stark co-piloting the armour with a direct hook up to the minds of each member of this amalgam, which will grant "it" the full range of abilities displayed by Iron Man as well as the combat experience of Peacemaker + Alfred (go Alfred!!!)

Out Tech amalgam will absorb another suit of Iron Man armour (saves a few seconds over creating everything from scratch) and will have access to not only all the specs of everything Fixer or Stark ever worked with, but the memories of Peacemaker, which contain the specifications for the Blue Beetle's scarab and all the weapons goodies it has ever came up with:

http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=03hi2.jpg

BB's tech can also scan, detect and counter magical creatures/abilities.

With our tech genius combo, which features the minds of Stark, Fixer, Cho, Hansen and others, we'll easily read the computer code containing this info.

Here's a quick feat of Techno translating every language in the world instantly during a real-time broadcast.

http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11praiseie8.jpg

So "boom", we just got access to (around) low herald level tech through the brain of a 5 point character ... nice!

Using our vast resources we also build and improve upon any and all psi-blocking devices Tony Stark has ever had access to (which is a lot as he's been using them for years)

Recap:

Our main amalgam has superspeed, instant reforming abilities, access to the sweetness of Reach-tech (Blue Beetle armour specs) and specs of every device ever invented by Stark ... along with the ability to insta-scan and adapt weapons/powers to counter new targets.

It also features a magical soul sword and accompanying armour (that also shifts to meet it's hosts form) with the bonus feature of mutant teleportation.

The sword itself doesn't do much, unless you happen to use it on a magic or demonic powered opponent ... in that case it seriously f**ks them up (to the extent of completely removing their powers in many cases)

So this amalgam will be entering the battle with the very latest in defensive shields up, offensive weapons powered up and occult weaponry ready to be deployed.

Secondary amalgam also features form-shifting Iron man armour with the ability to download new powers and create new weapons at will.

Third amalgam is just another Iron Man really ... still powerful but not our main weapon.

So there you have it: 3 Iron Men for the price of one, one containing Tony Stark and 2 containing copies of his mind with the ability to make new stuff whenever they want or need.

We're psi-blocked, have nuke surviving shields and the right tool for any job whenever we want.


We stay behind a triple powered IM-at-his-best shield and scan for our opponents.

Game on!

okey-dokey. before this goes any further, i need id to explain to me how exactly he drafted the king of hell (which cogliostro/cain--the earth's first murderer--apparently was once he attained the crown by betraying spawn--or he was at LEAST the absolute ruler of the 8th sphere) for 15pts.

now if cog was drafted from a time BEFORE he betrayed spawn, i still don't know his level, but he doesn't have the crown and all id's plans go to . . . hell.

if you drafted the king of hell (cog/cain with crown) and absolute ruler of the 8th sphere . . . well, 15pts seems rather cheap.

i actually can't read any of those pm's but they don't matter in the least-- delph has ok'd things in the past and reversed decisions because, by his own admission, he doesn't know everything and trusts that all important info is being revealed to him.

and you never answered my question, btw.

i'll rephrase--you didn't draft a specific cog/cain. ergo, he is the current version.

so . . . did you or did you not draft the current king of hell?

I drafted Cog, and I am making use of his last known base. Do you understand, that I am not limiting my character by when he did/didnt obtain said items. That is stupid and ridiculous.

Are you aware, that you drafted a character, who is the Queen of an entire realm hell for 20 points?

but on earth she is powerless. if she had her limbo powers on earth she would have cost a little bit more . . .

and you still never answered my question. i'll take that as a yes then, confirming the fact that you did indeed knowingly draft the current king of hell for 15pts. i'm curious--in those pm's i can't read, did you mention that little fact to delph? did you mention he has currently granted lordship of the 8th sphere to other greater demons?

it seems you want 2 things--you want cog while he was spawn's 'good conscience'--the one that had barely any hellspawn power and if he used it he would be returned to hell. THAT cog (you know, the non-ruler of hell . . .) probably IS only 15pts.

however, you want the one with the crown. to achieve that, he needed to commit suicide and was revealed to be a hellspawn with all said powers. THAT version alone wouldn't be close to 15.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE BOTH VERSIONS OF COG??

trying to claim some ridiculous "non-specific-version-so-i-can-do-all-things-with-the-character-and-get-him-for-cheap", is both illegal, laughable and utte-y disingenuous.

'll give you a final opportunity to answer my question:

DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT DRAFT THE CURRENT KING OF HELL FOR 15PTS?

Stop with the patronizing comments.
I drafted Cog for 15 points. The Crown is in his base. By the looks of it, this is all you can hope for, is a technicality to rule out misuse of a character.

so you DID draft the current king of hell for 15pts. sweet. all i wanted to know.

btw, in order to have been able to CLAIM that base, did he or did he not have to reassume his hellspawn powers? you're attempting to grant a version of cog (basically a powerless version) a base he could ONLY HAVE CLAIMED AFTER ASSUMING HIS HELLSPAWN POWERS AND GAINING LORDSHIP OF HELL.

ridiculous and completely disingenuous. and that is NOT patronizing. that is me calling you an outright cheater.

Originally posted by id369
I drafted Cog for 15 points. The Crown is in his base.

Seems a lot like the the issue we had in a previous match about Drafting Lex Luthor for 10 points then bringing in his Iron Man level armour.


Or the issue Smurph had with Boy Blue and the sword/cloak thingies.

Commissioner's Note:

I've been discussing the matter with Leo via PM, and here's the decision I've come to:



I checked and id left himself 5 points under the salary cap, so if Cog does in fact have his hellspawn powers back they'd be over the salary cap by 10 points (total of 135). I'm going to need some evidence though.

he drafted the reigning king of hell who is using the armies of hell to build some tower to maybe attack heaven. current cog STILL sits on the throne of hell. i'm thinking HE'S the one who needs to prove that the near-powerless version of cogliostro THAT HE DRAFTED has access to this tower and would ever have been able to access this crown in the first place. if he can't prove it, this match should be over.

Edited by request and moved to the tourny discussion thread.

i'm not actually debating this thread digi. anyway, here's current cogliostro/cain/merlin and all the other names he's come across. CURRENT version (you know the one he took for 15pts) is of course the reigning king of hell. here he demonstrates his power by effortlessly stripping spawn of his symbiote and power and returning him to earth.

i suppose batman could do the same thing . . .?

http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cogsf5.jpg

so, now i'm done with this idiocy. judges feel free to cast your votes but i'll not debate this blatant nonsense. the guy rules the armies of hell. can strip spawn in a heartbeat of his powers. and he cost 15pts.

yeah . . .


disqualify him or vote. either way, doesn't matter to me.

Edited and moved to the tourny discussion thread.

guys, how about you just get back to debating, and any questionable issues can be dealt with in the discussion thread, by the judges, or with illadelph...

^^^^^^^^^^

Agreed, this isn't a discussion thread but an actual match.

wrong topic

wrong topic

wrong topic

wrong topic

Originally posted by id369
This is the last you could hope for. Anyhow, you bitched its expected. You cried, pft you still are. Now comes acceptance. Because the current Cog has no full blown hell powers, as it clearly demonstrated in the comic book itself. If so, I would not need to accesses the Black Tower to accesses the Crown.

On the scale of 1-10; 10 being the highest. How pissed are you going to be one you find out you lost this match? 12..13?

actually, i couldn't care less if we lose this match. we are IN the playoffs.

and you've done a GREAT job of refuting my questions.

did you draft the current king of hell for 15pts?

no full-blown powers, eh? so . . . how exactly did he strip spawn of his symbiote again? and out of curiosity, how many times has he appeared in books since stripping spawn of his powers then claiming the throne so that you could have developed this insightful impression about the character?

perhaps you could show us how 'powerless' all the previous kings of hell were? that might help. funny to think that batman could stroll into hell, beat up its king and find the crown lying around and declare himself king. and good thing those greater demons are so nice and forgiving and willing to let a powerless king lord over them and command them.



the really weird thing about all this (going back to your idiocy about meanstreak which was ALSO proven to be assinine . . .) is that you were at one point respected by me and many around here. emphasis on WERE.

you tried something. it failed. miserably. you were busted for it and yet instead of taking the opportunity to make . . . ANY sort of amends, you cling to it like we're all idiots and petulantly act as though you did nothing wrong.

take the match m'man. seriously. if you need it as desperately as you clearly do it's all yours, with my compliments on the entertainment. and way to use this format to make yourself look good.

Actually the evidence that proves Cog is powerless in hell has bin presented. The only evidence you wish to point out are when Cog applied the power of Crown.

Otherwise, no he locked the base and secured the crown. He is last seen with out wearing the crown in his Base. The entire point was to accesses the base to attain the Crown.


Now the claims fall heavy on your evidence for you present.

And best wishes to you and this tournament.

Originally posted by id369
Actually the evidence that proves Cog is powerless in hell has bin presented. The only evidence you wish to point out are when Cog applied the power of Crown.

Otherwise, no he locked the base and secured the crown. He is last seen with out wearing the crown in his Base. The entire point was to accesses the base to attain the Crown.


Now the claims fall heavy on your evidence for you present.

And best wishes to you and this tournament.

id--if he is so powerless as you say, PLEASE explain how he depowered spawn so easily? and please show me that it is actually the CROWN that grants the power, as opposed to the LORDSHIP THE CROWN REPRESENTS? he STILL sits the throne. that means he is STILL the king, and CLEARLY he has the powers that come with the title.

i'll go out and apologize for losing my cool, but seriously, this ploy just . . . makes no sense.

are you denying that he is currently commanding all the armies to work for him and build his tower?

you SAY he has no powers as king--that is ridiculous id. how would he stay LORD of hell with no powers?? how can i prove these powers (beyond showing what he did to spawn which you never even tried to refute) when he's had no APPEARANCES since aside from it being told to us that he is building his tower to apparently assault HEAVEN.

dude--you drafted the king of hell for 15pts and you thought it was gonna be all right?

Dude you have the Queen of hell for 20 points?!?! And my character does less.

The only way, Cog did what did was through the crown. No body knows why he is building the tower, but why would he need some one to build the tower, if he has the magical powers as you claim.


Do you have any other piece of evidence, where Cog applied his power with or with out the Crown?

Originally posted by leonidas
take the match m'man. seriously. if you need it as desperately as you clearly do it's all yours, with my compliments on the entertainment. and way to use this format to make yourself look good.

Quiet you!


_____________



With no KoH powers to draw from, Spawn is unpleasantly surprised when Tehchno teleports right in front of him, blasts him in his "hellspawns" with a leg that just turned into the biggest f**king repulsor cannon you've ever seen, then proceeds to hack off Spawn's limbs and impale him with the Soul-Sword.

As Cable watches this in awe the other 2 Iron Guys melt his brain with ultrasonic attacks ... then kick him while he's down, Techno tackles the OMAC, knocks it out with repuslors and Hulk KOing strength feats (see early Iron Man comics*) then proceeds to plug in and download all interesting techy info from the cyborg.

Um ... If Id has anyone else (to know I'd have to wade through his prep ... so I doubt I'll find out anytime soon) then we dogpile them with the full variety of Iron Man's historical weapons*.


Oh yeah, don't forget that we're doing all this at tourney capped speed thanks to our power approximating ability we assimilated from Weapon X (Kane) during prep.











*Scoob can't be bothered searching for scans right now.

Originally posted by id369
Dude you have the Queen of hell for 20 points?!?! And my character does less.

The only way, Cog did what did was through the crown. No body knows why he is building the tower, but why would he need some one to build the tower, if he has the magical powers as you claim.


Do you have any other piece of evidence, where Cog applied his power with or with out the Crown?

you know it's impossible to provide you with scans because he hasn't appeared since.

and how does he command the armies of hell WITH OUT POWERS??

you say his power came strictly from the crown--as opposed to his new STATION as king of hell. so, let me get this straight--with the crown on he has all these uber powers--enough to instantly depower spawn, take control of all the armies, command them to do his bidding. and so the first thing he does with it is . . . take it off and lock it up, thus forefitting the power he has look for since the day he became the world's first murderer? but, the armies decide to follow his orders any just . . . because? seriously id. i KNOW you don't believe any of that. it is SO illogical as to be silly.

and illyana is NOT the current ruler of limbo and she is powerless on earth. if delph set limbo as a battlefield, i'm guessing we wouldn't be able to use her (though even in limbo her powers have been shown to be LESS than spectacular . . .)

(and well done scoob. use the scans of the soulsword i sent you just to show it doesn't matter what level he is anyway . . . )

Originally posted by leonidas
use the scans of the soulsword i sent you just to show it doesn't matter what level he is anyway . . . )

I wouldn't want to paraphrase you ... so here you go:

all right, i'll make this quick then i'm requesting a ruling on the issue and we'll go from there.

you have just affirmed you DID draft the king of hell for 15pts.

you DID affirm he sits the throne, controls the armies, GRANTED power to demons. yet you claim that because he took the crown off he is 'powerless' despite those very CLEAR inferential displays of power. you claim that all power came from the crown (which he willingly removed, thereby willingly FOREFITTING all the power he fought for 1000s of years to attain . . .) but NOWHERE in any of those scans do we see evidence that the king's power stem from the crown alone as opposed to his station.

beyond that, there is now the issue that everyone was concerned with from the start--as king, the crown IS HIS STANDARD EQUIPMENT. whether he is actully WEARING it or not is irrelevent. it is EXACTLY analogous to drafting tony for 5pts then taking his armor (or more accurately then allowing alfred to wear his armor--also illegal.)

the plan fails on so many fronts i cannot actually believe this isn't been ruled on already. every participant in the tourney SEES it is illegal. you supplied all the evidence yourself in the above scans--he IS king. he DOES sit the throne. the crown IS his, whetehr he is actually WEARING it or not.

it's illegal id, and sneaking in the king of hell for 15pts was just . . . shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
it is EXACTLY analogous to drafting tony for 5pts then taking his armor (or more accurately then allowing alfred to wear his armor--also illegal.)


It's more like drafting Don Blake for 5 then turning him into Odin powered Thor, who is high herald at least.

all right, so king spawn has finally been ruled illegal for ninternalizing the crown and using its power.

with that, they have standard spawn, a powerless cable/cog combo and an omac merged with sage. spawn has no chance against our speed and the sword (which would likely ohko him), and a lone omac has no chance against our full team.

so yeah, we crush him.

Originally posted by leonidas
all right, so king spawn has finally been ruled illegal for ninternalizing the crown and using its power.

with that, they have standard spawn, a powerless cable/cog combo and an omac merged with sage. spawn has no chance against our speed and the sword (which would likely ohko him), and a lone omac has no chance against our full team.

so yeah, we crush him.

If so, we would have. This does not effect the proceeding that happened in my prep.

God Like Cable, and Cog empowered. (Fusion). (plus farther empowering)
OMAC fused with Sage, (plus farther empowering).

there is so much of that i don't understand i can hardly begin to attack it.

the first thing you did was make king spawn. that is now impossible.

you said using his powers, you upgrade cog. that is now impossible.



no spawn, limits remain. and if his powers are auto-restored in hell, why is he only 15 again? and proof that these new powers would be useable/tranferrable OUTSIDE hell comes from . . .?? seems like they would be limited again, as they were previously when he FEARED using them because he FEARED going back to hell. there you go mixing eras of the character again. you want all the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. and if he is as powerless as you say, why does a symbiote just . . . repower him anyway?

you said you king spawn to heal cable. that is now impossible.



you upgraded your omac via king spawn. that is now impossible and all you have is sage/omac. powerful, but nowhere close to being able to challenge our team.

so you have a hellspawn cog--somehow i don't really understand--classic cable (useless in the extreme against our uber robot) and that hellspawn would be decimated in one shot by someone with tourney-max speed and the soulsword. spawn would also be ohko'd by the sword. our speed>>>your speed. that leaves just your omac against all of us.

you lose.

i guess it also means spawn empowered and nothing in your plan has changed at all.

so you are simply planning on having cog (or spawn, it doesn't matter who) use his crown to do all of that in prep, is that what you are saying? then you leave the crown behind and go on your merry way?

so you are saying that the crown DOES belong to cog.

he DOES then have the power to make everyone into gods AND make it permanent.

AND you drafted him for 15pts.

once again--if he has the power to do that, and he is the king, and the crown is HIS AS KING, how can i or anyone else possibly NOT call BS on that pick??

the friggin king of hell, uses HIS crown to make everyone into gods, and you just draft him for the price of batman and i'm supposed to accept that?

my god, i'm literally begging someone--ANYONE-- to PLEASE explain how as THE KING WHO SITS THE THRONE OF HELL, THE CROWN DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM??? and how it is NOT then considered HIS STANDARD EQUIPMENT!!??

anyone. please.

okay, so then this is finished.

as per the rule, you get the current version. the current version possesses the crown. as king, it is standard equipment for him. he also displayed plenty of inferential power even WITHOUT actually wearing the crown--more than enough to get him booted from this thing.

you have the current king of hell on your roster.

a pm from delph:



you didn't specify an era-specific cog, ergo you have the current one and are (via delph's ruling) therefore over the cap based both on the crown as standard equipment for a king, AND on his displayed power even without the crown.

no access to cog. no access to the crown. no king of anything. all your prep plans are gone to . . . hell, and all your left with--as i said earlier--is your omac vs all of us. techno assimilates his tech after we demolish him and we move on toward the playoffs.

good night.

I smell a lot pm's took place. Usually these are one sided arguments. Curious though, on his displayed power even without the crown. Can someone elaborate this for me?

i have elaborated--2 or 3 times already. and actually, i refrained from pm'ing delph about this all week, til yesterday.

i fully realize what i big b!tch i look like for raising such a stink, but what you did was so clearly wrong imo (and the opinion of several others) that i felt it needed to be addressed. i've repeatedly outlined WHY it was wrong and illegal.

anyway, judges--my apologies for the debacle. cog is ruled INELIGIBLE. that means he is not ON the team. they have the defeat prep place (whatever that is . . .) so they have the classic cable, regular spawn and an omac/sage combo.

with our speed and teleportation, we take out normal spawn with the soulsword. if anyone doesn't believe the soulsword feat of amanda works with magik (it's the exact same sword . . .) i can show scnas if needed of her one-shotting the demons s'ym, n'astir and even the lord of limbo at the time, (and the CURRENT lord of limbo . . .) belasco. the soulsword pwns spawn in the opening moments of the match.

ironman x has all of im's tp shielding. classic cable has no chance against this combo that can DL whatever powers from weapon x it needs. we can simply hit him with a sonic barrage to stagger him and get him to drop his shields, then take him out in a variety of ways. our own normal shields and psi-shields prevent him from being able to harm us in any way.

the omac is still powerful. the peacemaker amalgam onlty needs to distract it and last for a couple of moments before the techno amalgam can arrive and the ironman x amalgam as well. then together, all 3 of us simply overpower their last member.

without the king of hell on his team, this is a slaughterhouse.

Originally posted by leonidas
cog is ruled INELIGIBLE. that means he is not ON the team.

Originally posted by illadelph12
id/Kandy and Leo/Scoob, just so you both know, this matter isn't completely settled. If there is evidence that the Crown isn't standard equipment for Cog than id's prep would stand.

then i suppose it is in the judges hands.

It's in Delph's hands. I'm waiting on a definitive ruling. Just to get this out, this is my argument for why it's legal (if this should be in the discussion thread, someone tell me and i'll move it.)

Cog didn't have any powers before he got the crown, and even when he went to hell, he didn't get his powers back. Then he got the crown, still with no powers. The crown let him preform good feats, and from then on he is never shown with it. He has two appearances afterwards, and neither have him with the crown. So, given how the majority of his appearances before and after don't show him with any power, and he only ever used the Crown once, it isn't standard equipment. He still HAS the crown, but he doesn't wear it or use it, just keeps it. So, it's a base item in my view.

This is the exact same precedent as the miracle machine ruling. There is not an atom of difference between the two, rules wise.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It's in Delph's hands. I'm waiting on a definitive ruling. Just to get this out, this is my argument for why it's legal (if this should be in the discussion thread, someone tell me and i'll move it.)

Cog didn't have any powers before he got the crown, and even when he went to hell, he didn't get his powers back. Then he got the crown, still with no powers. The crown let him preform good feats, and from then on he is never shown with it. He has two appearances afterwards, and neither have him with the crown. So, given how the majority of his appearances before and after don't show him with any power, and he only ever used the Crown once, it isn't standard equipment. He still HAS the crown, but he doesn't wear it or use it, just keeps it. So, it's a base item in my view.

This is the exact same precedent as the miracle machine ruling. There is not an atom of difference between the two, rules wise. I'm okay with the 2 participating teams talking about the situation in this thread. Saves space in the other thread imo. Just so no people except the 2 teams participating, judges and Delph are involved.

But in this case we actually need a ruling from delph. Or at least, that would really help.

Originally posted by King Kandy
But in this case we actually need a ruling from delph. Or at least, that would really help. I edited and re-worded my post so it makes sense. dur on me.

I don't have enough info either way to make an informed judgment.

I'm gonna need some time to think how I want to proceed.

Take all the time you need. I'd just like to see this settled before votes.

i finally just saw this and thought i'd throw it out there. it's just one more display of cog's INFERRED power:

this is the scan id showed in the previous page:

http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spawn141image05dl0.jpg

it's the last panel that seems to indicate cog is not as powerless as they would like us to assume. we see him in the window with the text stating that he is acting in the role of a judgement, willing and able to subject his SUBJECTS, the denizens of hell--to his rulings and judgement. again, that implies power, with or without the crown.

then again--how does he rule hell and command armies to do his bidding without any power? and why remove a crown that made him a god when he's always want to rule? i've raised several other issues that i'd like any judge to reply to if a ruling is made one way of another. i just was finally able to se that scan (the new imageshack format has given me lots of trouble .. .) so i thought i'd bing it up and give them a chance to rebut.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Was it his base before he was King?

Current Cog, as King.

So he never had the base without having the crown as his standard equipment.


This is exactly the same as when you tried to use Classic Cable with current (or close to current) Cable's feats/base/tech.

Originally posted by Scoobless
So he never had the base without having the crown as his standard equipment.


This is exactly the same as when you tried to use Classic Cable with current (or close to current) Cable's feats/base/tech.

Scoob, I am arguing the Crown is base equipment not Standard equipment.

As for Classic Cable rule out, that was an unprecedented error in my part. I did not know changes where implemented over the curse of tournament discussion. That topic gets buried over, more stuff that goes along. I only kept track of the rule set, which at the time did not have the new rule implicated.

Originally posted by id369
Scoob, I am arguing the Crown is base equipment not Standard equipment.

And I'm arguing that without drafting a fully powered king of Hell, you wouldn't have access to the base where the equipment resides.

As you drafted a powerless character, there is no way you can call him King of Hell and no way he could have access to the tower or the crown.

Oh well and this is where I stop answering circular logic.
Thank you for comment. Good luck to your future matches.

Sorry if it has already been said man (I skipped a few posts) but I still gotta represent my side of the debate.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Sorry if it has already been said man (I skipped a few posts) but I still gotta represent my side of the debate.

it's exactly the same thing i've been saying, scoob. his counter is that even as king he is powerless and that even as king he should still only be worth 15pts.

but again--he LET others rule for him. and in that panel i mentioned, it seems they still suffer HIS judgements, are subject to HIS authority. clear indications of his POWER. IMO.

but one thing made me curious id--you said you showed how kings of hell can be powerless on earth. you also said any changes made are permanent. why would one king of hell be powerless on earth, yet another retain power? (i think you are referencing the crown's power lasting on earth when he depowered spawn, but i could be mistaken in regards to whether that is what you are referencing . . .)

.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's exactly the same thing i've been saying, scoob.

Maybe, but my concision and clarity are vastly superior to your own.

concision?

yeah, you're clear as an oil spill.

facepalm

This is not an issue of "Is Cog powerless, or is he the king of hell?"

He is both.

It may be more of a case of what constitutes a prep base.

When holding Iron Man no team was allowed SHIELD HQ as it was only a very recent base and by no means his "classic" base of operations.

Same with Marvel Boy, he had to use the plex ship, not his status as lord of the cube (or whatever he called himself)

In fact this is the only character who we are being told might have access to a short term recent-story-arc-only base.

The precedents against it are mounting up, to give you this base now would overturn a lot of decisions from other matches.

facepalm
If you are going to make accusations or claims. At least try to get your facts strait. The Base was acquired on issue #120, on the year 2002. It has bin his base ever since. 66 issues later, its still his on going base. Not a recent arc/turn as you make it out to be.

It makes no difference if he is the only person to accesses HIS base, simply because its HIS base of operation.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Standard equipment is something that is routinely used in a character's history. For example, Captain America's shield, Ironman's armor, Batman's batarangs, smoke pellets and utility belt, Punisher's guns, Deathstroke's staff, etc.

Specialty items wouldn't be considered standard equipment. For an example, if in a particular story Hawkeye was depicted as acquiring and using a special anti-Hulk gamma arrow, but he was not depicted as using that item in any other story before or since, it wouldn't be considered "standard equipment", though he was depicted as having access to it, or if Brainiac had an invention that he created and a storyline was made which depicts him testing said item and going on an adventure with the LoSH because of it's effects, that item would not be considered "standard equipment" simply because of it's use.

Additionally, if the tower was considered his prep area, then the crown is a base item. As per Delph's discussion of the theoretical "anti-hulk arrow", equipment is not considered standard if it is not used on a day-to-day basis, and had the majority of appearances before and after without it's use, even if the character still has access to it at his base.

Based on this ruling, we literally know that the crown is legal. The way this is worded, the crown is the very DEFINITION of a base item that is not standard equip.

except he's only appeared . . . 2 times since, and both were very very brief appearances. beyond that, given that he is in the tower and seems to consider himself and his title safe, there is no real reason to even WEAR it. be like stark hanging out at home in his armor.

You mean, Stark hanging out in his base, with out his armor on.

spz8_rpE0e0

Sorry for the spam. It needed posted. I can't watch this discussion without hearing the music play through my head.

313

Originally posted by leonidas
except he's only appeared . . . 2 times since, and both were very very brief appearances. beyond that, given that he is in the tower and seems to consider himself and his title safe, there is no real reason to even WEAR it. be like stark hanging out at home in his armor.
If Stark only wore his armor once, and kept it in his base every issue without use, it would be base equipment.

but even if you're technically right, in this case everyone would still call stark IRONMAN like we call him king cog. even if he he wore the armor once then we saw him for 2 panels over the next couple issues, with a name like IRONMAN we could safely say the armor was standard . . .

and . . . wasn't the ruling supposed to be posted last night?

did i miss it?

Sorry for the delay with my judgment. I had unexpected (but welcomed) company last night.

Anyway, here we go:

After hearing both sides of this argument, examining and re-examining the evidence, doing some background research of my own, considering the pre-existing precedents of prep areas and era specific draft choices, and thinking about what would be the best thing to do in the interest of fairness, I've come to this conclusion.

During the majority of Cogliostro's character history, which, since Id did not state an era specific version, would mean, by default, he gets the latest incarnation of Cog and the character's entire canon history, I have no evidence which would lead me to believe the crown is "standard equipment" for Cog, along the lines of Captain America's shield or Batman's batarangs. For most of his character history Cog did not use any powers at all due to having been a hellspawn, and the issue that if he'd used up the last small bit of his symbiote powers which he had left, he'd be condemned to hell. He only obtains the Crown and Throne after committing suicide to gain access to hell, and then tricking and setting a trap for Spawn utilizing an artifact given to him by Mammon. Then, with Spawn's relinquished crown and the vacant throne now in his possession due to the coup, Cog uses the powers of these newly obtained artifacts to restore Spawn's humanity and send him back to Earth, and then give control of hell to other demons so he could build his tower.

It is my opinion that this situation is more akin to Thanos or Adam Warlock obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet than it would be to Captain America or Batman's regular use of their Shield/batarangs. My ruling is that the Crown and Throne are in Cog's possession/he has access to them currently in Hell, but per his entire character history, these items are not his standard equipment, just currently in his possession/employ. The Throne and Crown could not be brought into combat by any means per the tech/weaponry rule, but using the powers of these artifacts in prep to enhance your team would be legal (per the previous Brainiac/Miracle Machine ruling).

Note: Clause over victory.

Victory over this match, entitles our team the following:
1. Total recollection, of memory, knowledge and experience. Memories will be retained in Sage.
2. If applicable I will also strip, their souls and retain them for memory retention purposes. Souls/memories will be retained in Spawn.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Sorry for the delay with my judgment. I had unexpected (but welcomed) company last night.

Anyway, here we go:

After hearing both sides of this argument, examining and re-examining the evidence, doing some background research of my own, considering the pre-existing precedents of prep areas and era specific draft choices, and thinking about what would be the best thing to do in the interest of fairness, I've come to this conclusion.

During the majority of Cogliostro's character history, which, since Id did not state an era specific version, would mean, by default, he gets the latest incarnation of Cog and the character's entire canon history, I have no evidence which would lead me to believe the crown is "standard equipment" for Cog, along the lines of Captain America's shield or Batman's batarangs. For most of his character history Cog did not use any powers at all due to having been a hellspawn, and the issue that if he'd used up the last small bit of his symbiote powers which he had left, he'd be condemned to hell. He only obtains the Crown and Throne after committing suicide to gain access to hell, and then tricking and setting a trap for Spawn utilizing an artifact given to him by Mammon. Then, with Spawn's relinquished crown and the vacant throne now in his possession due to the coup, Cog uses the powers of these newly obtained artifacts to restore Spawn's humanity and send him back to Earth, and then give control of hell to other demons so he could build his tower.

It is my opinion that this situation is more akin to Thanos or Adam Warlock obtaining the Infinity Gauntlet than it would be to Captain America or Batman's regular use of their Shield/batarangs. My ruling is that the Crown and Throne are in Cog's possession/he has access to them currently in Hell, but per his entire character history, these items are not his standard equipment, just currently in his possession/employ. The Throne and Crown could not be brought into combat by any means per the tech/weaponry rule, but using the powers of these artifacts in prep to enhance your team would be legal (per the previous Brainiac/Miracle Machine ruling).

So drafting Wong for 15/20 gives you access to all the artifacts stored in his classic base? (Dr Strange's Sanctom)

I still can't believe they essentially drafted a herald for 15 points ... and got away with it.

Originally posted by id369
Note: Clause over victory.

Victory over this match, entitles our team the following:
1. Total recollection, of memory, knowledge and experience. Memories will be retained in Sage.
2. If applicable I will also strip, their souls and retain them for memory retention purposes. Souls/memories will be retained in Spawn.

Interesting, though I don't actually recall seeing any votes come in.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Interesting, though I don't actually recall seeing any votes come in.

I just wanted judges, and members to keep this in mind.

Originally posted by Scoobless
So drafting Wong for 15/20 gives you access to all the artifacts stored in his classic base? (Dr Strange's Sanctom)

No. That would be in the realm of drafting Jarvis or Alfred, which wouldn't give you the use of Ironman or Batman's armaments, just their databases. Don't forget the ruling on general team use versus individual character equipment (for example, you couldn't draft Hawkeye and then use any member of the Avenger's equipment, only equipment that is general use for all team members without any prohibitions).

Originally posted by illadelph12
No. That would be in the realm of drafting Jarvis or Alfred, which wouldn't give you the use of Ironman or Batman's armaments, just their databases. Don't forget the ruling on general team use versus individual character equipment (for example, you couldn't draft Hawkeye and then use any member of the Avenger's equipment, only equipment that is general use for all team members without any prohibitions).

What if I could show Wong using the Wand of Watoomb, or any other of these items? none of which would be "standard equipment" even for Dr Strange ... it is his base too and he can use them when he needs to.

If we're saying the crown isn't standard gear then there's very little, if any, difference with that scenario.

It would also bring the Infinity Gems into play as the Illuminati members have access to them (which we didn't even try to use because we thought it was blatantly illegal)

That's still a different distinction Scoob.

In the case of Wong (or other similar characters such as Alfred or Jarvis), he's a servant, and at times he is granted permission/asked to use items which belong to Dr. Strange (or Batman, or Ironman) to aide Dr. Strange in something he is doing. Possession of the items is still Dr. Strange's, Wong is simply granted occasional, situational access to them to help him out.

It's like, for example, if you lived with your Dad and he gave you permission to use his power tools to help him with some maintenance in the garage, but under normal circumstances you didn't have permission to just grab it and do whatever you wanted with it without his permission/directions. Now, since you live in the same house and it is your residence as well, yes, you'd have access to it, but it isn't your personal property and it's actually the property of the head of the household, so you wouldn't just have free access to it whenever you wished (hence the ruling on general use equipment at a prep base versus specific character/restricted use equipment).

In the case of Cog, it is actually his equipment/possession currently, but it's just not his standard issue, regularly depicted use for his entire canon character history equipment (like Cap's shield or Ironman's armor).

I hope that makes it clearer.

Originally posted by illadelph12
it is actually his equipment/possession currently, but it's just not his standard issue, regularly depicted use for his entire canon character history equipment (like Cap's shield or Ironman's armor).

I hope that makes it clearer.

It does, it sounds a lot like the Boy Blue case again when you put it like that.

The whole "low point drafting for mega point weaponry" thing I mean.

Smurph actually brought the equipment into battle. If he'd only used it in prep, it would have been legal.

After sorting out all the legal issues that came up in this match we finally get to the true matter at hand. I'll keep this short (well, relatively short for my usual judgments):

There weren't many actual battle posts since this match became more lawsuit than battle debate. The main points are the following:

-Spawn's use of the crown and amps of his teammates stand.
-Id granted his teammates symbiotes and then amped their abilities via the Crown's powers, which was legal.
-Id internalized the Crown and brought it to battle which was illegal and would prohibit Spawn from battle, thereby causing the match to be a 2 vs. 3 handicap.

I really like Leo & Scoobs plan. It reminds me of a tech based plan I'd come up with. Very inventive, and it will serve them well in the playoffs. In this match in particular, however, with all the fervor over King Spawn and the use of the Crown, the fact that Id healed Cable and restored him to his "God-like" full powered telekinetic form, plus unlocking Cog's full hellspawn abilities without limits and merging them together creates an extremely formidable, and legal, amalgamation, and I believe even in the absence of King Spawn himself, God Cable/Full Hellspawn Cog could still dismantle Leo/Scoob's tech based team, though outnumbered, but not necessarily outgunned. Maybe if the match contained more actual posts spelling out specifics rather than just arguing legalities things would be a bit less cloudy, but based on what was presented, in my opinion, Id/Kandy's team would be the victor.

Judge's Vote: Id369/Kandy