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The Runner gets the Space Gem.

Who wins?

Runner. Like, 9/10.

The Runner in spite take the gem away.

Tough to say.. Even when Flash was amped to the point where he could accelerate from zero to c instantly, he was still nothing in comparison to Zoom.

edit.

Runner pretty easily with the gem Runner was owning Thanos.

It would be better fight without the SPACE GEM

you have to remember that runner was also more powerful than the Surfer and that with godly Speed = win

Runner with the gem takes this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tough to say.. Even when Flash was amped to the point where he could accelerate from zero to c instantly, he was still nothing in comparison to Zoom. crylaugh0


runner easy

Originally posted by skyfather
crylaugh0 My, you are certainly the persistent troll.

Instead of meaningless smilies, please post the reason why you found my post 'funny.' After you take into consideration the fact that Runner could barely tap the gem's potential, of course. Understand also, that I have no problem with Runner taking this - I just don't think it'd be easy based on what we saw him actually do with the gem, is all.

Originally posted by Galan007
Tough to say.. Even when Flash was amped to the point where he could accelerate from zero to c instantly, he was still nothing in comparison to Zoom.

Without tapping the gem, Runner was still multiple times light speed - while in combat. I have a scan or two if you want to see them later for proof.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Without tapping the gem, Runner was still multiple times light speed - while in combat. I have a scan or two if you want to see them later for proof. I'd like to see them. Anyhow, at Flash's enhanced levels his battle speed far exceeded c as well. He was just so fast at that point, he could reach light speed instantly. Instantly.

Not that it helped him much.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd like to see them. Anyhow, at Flash's enhanced levels his battle speed far exceeded c as well. He was just so fast at that point, he could reach light speed instantly. Instantly. Not that it helped him much.

Flash never went FTL during his first battle with Zoom nor his second skirmish involving the cosmic tredmill. In fact, with Flash pushing himself as hard as he could and shoving Zoom he was going a little over 100,000 mps, 54% of the speed of light.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Flash never went FTL during his first battle with Zoom nor his second skirmish involving the cosmic tredmill. In fact, with Flash pushing himself as hard as he could and shoving Zoom he was going a little over 100,000 mps, 54% of the speed of light. Which is why I was solely referencing their battle after Wally took on the speed of Jay/Bart. And in that battle, Wally could hit c instantly.

Runner. Being everywhere at the same times his sufficient to garanty him the win.

When was Runner "everywhere at once?"

Originally posted by Galan007
When was Runner "everywhere at once?"

The Space Gem allow to exist everywhere at everytime.

I think Zoom will be tough to put down.

Originally posted by Galan007
Which is why I was solely referencing their battle after Wally took on the speed of Jay/Bart. And in that battle, Wally could hit c instantly.

I don't have a problem with that.

But you said his battle speed exceeded c...which is pretty speculative and doesn't have a basis.

Runner without the gem takes this fairly easy (he is a cosmic level threat), with the gem ... it's just pure spite .

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
The Space Gem allow to exist everywhere at everytime. Yeah.... And when did Runner do that?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't have a problem with that.

But you said his battle speed exceeded c...which is pretty speculative and doesn't have a basis. The fact that Wally could hit c instantly, sure leads me to believe that there would be no issue with him exceeding it... after instantly had passed - especially when he was getting his ass handed to him. Wally was just telling us what speed he could reach, within a given amount of time . He wasn't saying that was his max speed.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'd like to see them.

I've got one. More evidence probably in the Runner/SS fight, but I don't have it.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Runner_FTL1.jpg

I'd like to point out a few things: first is that Runner outright states that he is faster than light. Something that, to my knowledge, Zoom never does (does Wally ever?). Second is that he's literally running a full circle around Thanos' energy beam. Visible light in a vacuum (space) travels at the speed of light. So he not only says he's faster than light, but he backs it up. And lastly, he doubles that speed before bullrushing him a final time.

He's doing all this without tapping into the gem. Because as he and later Thanos explains, he taps into the gem subconsciously. The only time he's using it is when he basically surprises himself. And what he's doing there to Thanos is all very conscious and deliberate. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Originally posted by Galan007
The fact that Wally could hit c instantly, sure leads me to believe that there would be no issue with him exceeding it... after instantly had passed - especially when he was getting his ass handed to him. Wally was just telling us what speed he could reach, within a given amount of time . He wasn't saying that was his max speed.

If you've got a problem with anything I said above, something along the lines of perhaps not believing the Runner's own statement about him being FTL...I'm going to point out, as you already said, that Flash only told us that with that boost from Jay and Bart he could hit zero to light speed instantly. No feat during his battles with Zoom actually depict this.

But if you're cool with mine I'm cool with yours.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'd like to point out a few things: first is that Runner outright states that he is faster than light. Something that, to my knowledge, Zoom never does (does Wally ever?). Wally has said it and Zoom obviously can.

Originally posted by kgkg
Wally has said it and Zoom obviously can.

You happen to have specifics in mind?

runner with the gem without it zoom is the fastest being to ever live unamped.

Originally posted by zeel
runner with the gem without it zoom is the fastest being to ever live unamped.

Runner is still FTL without his gem and physically stronger than SS (who is in turn physically stronger than an Enraged Hulk) without aid from momentum.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I've got one. More evidence probably in the Runner/SS fight, but I don't have it.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Runner_FTL1.jpg

I'd like to point out a few things: first is that Runner outright states that he is faster than light. Something that, to my knowledge, Zoom never does (does Wally ever?). Second is that he's literally running a full circle around Thanos' energy beam. Visible light in a vacuum (space) travels at the speed of light. So he not only says he's faster than light, but he backs it up. And lastly, he doubles that speed before bullrushing him a final time. Runner merely tells us he is faster than light, as he's coming to a stop. He then runs away and turns back to bullrush Thanos. It's only then that a comment is made regarding Runner's speed having doubled. And quite frankly, we have no idea how fast that was. No clue at all. Was it faster than light? Probably. Was it double the speed of light, though? Not enough evidence, imo.

As for your theory of him having to of been travelling at light speed while circling Thanos, because we can see the aura trail, or whatever... imo, that's trying to apply way too much real world crap, into a fictional comic. Hell, in the vacuum of space they shouldn't be able to vocally speak to one another, either.... but they are. It's comics - if an aura trail makes that panel look better, it gets added.

Anyhow, after Wally amps, and tells us that he can move from 0 to c instantly, he actually backs it up in a one on one battle. He even goes on to say that us despite his perceptions being as heightened as they were, he could still hardly see Zoom. That's certainly tells me that Zoom's speed was greater than light, by a hefty margin .


Meh, I'm pretty much done with this part of the debate. Both of our opinions have been stated, no need to go on. It's already a given that Zoom would be able to at least react faster than Zoom .

Originally posted by Galan007
It's already a given that Zoom would be able to at least react faster than Zoom .
Zoom is faster than Zoom?

Even if Zoom was faster he would loose due to runner's other ability.

IMO it would take one good hit to put Zoom down where Zoom does not have that luxury. Even "if" he was faster

Originally posted by kgkg
Zoom is faster than Zoom? I meant Zoom can react faster than Runner. My bad.... Had Zoom on the brain, I guess.

Odd though that in this image-

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/1128/flashv2148022rg.jpg

Wally is already at light speed, in -- at most -- just a few feet.

Runner isn't impressive to me. He's mostly just hype, but I've been over this in other threads and won't take it up here.

Zoom can steal his spped. Also what happens when you give a gun to a 2 yr old? Can use it correctly right? Thats what happens when Runners gets the space gem

Originally posted by Enyalus
That pretty much implies that Runner is many times faster than light himself. That's without the gem. Those scans don't imply anything of the sort.

The first scan really tells us nothing about his speed. And the second scan shows Runner soaring around with Moondragon for an unknown amount of time.

In no way/shape/form are they solid proof of Runner exceeding c.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And I don't see how what you're using as evidence is any different at all from what I'm using as evidence. Wally said he can hit lightspeed instantly. It doesn't mean he did in their battle. Especially because they were inside of a hospital at the time.

Zoom is definitely light speed...probably faster. But so is Runner. IMO, even faster. After stating he could accelerate to c instantly, Wally began battling Zoom. There is no reason to think he was not fighting at > c, when he not only told us the type of speed he was capable of attaining in an instantaneous amount of time - then putting it to use against Zoom... but also the fact that the amp wore off after a while .

And there's no 'probably(s)' about Zoom being > c, btw.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't agree there, either. The gem lets him move teleport instantly. Zoom moving ahead of the timestream is a big help, and he even says in their battle, "I am BEYOND speed." But, with the gem, Runner doesn't need to solely rely on speed either, as he has space at his disposal. Unless the space gem allows the Runner to move ahead of time then there is no possible way he can react faster than Zoom.

Originally posted by Galan007
Unless the space gem allows the Runner to move ahead of time then there is no possible way he can react faster than Zoom.

I didn't say react faster than Zoom. But at least as fast? I don't see why not. When Wally had Jay and Bart and Jesse's speed he was as fast as Zoom was. Could react just as fast. He can't move ahead of time.

It isn't impossible.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I didn't say react faster than Zoom. But at least as fast? I don't see why not. When Wally had Jay and Bart and Jesse's speed he was as fast as Zoom was. Could react just as fast. He can't move ahead of time.

It isn't impossible. No.

The only reason Wally became as fast as Zoom upon absorbing Jesse's speed, was because her connection to the speed force somehow allowed Wally to nearly stop time around him - shatter all laws of physics. He and Zoom were locked between the ticks of a second, literally . The space gem does not allow for that type of action.

Having said that, my statement still holds true.

The arguments presented in this thread are the reasons why I find the fact that people believe this site is DC biased hilarious.

And no, that's not me saying Zoom wins this.

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

The only reason Wally became as fast as Zoom upon absorbing Jesse's speed, was because her connection to the speed force somehow allowed Wally to nearly stop time around him - shatter all laws of physics. He and Zoom were locked between the ticks of a second, literally . The space gem does not allow for that type of action.

Having said that, my statement still holds true.

Ah, you know, I just assumed that it was kind of a figure of speech. 'Time nearly stops around me' etc. Just thought that meant they were going so fast that that's what it looked like (a lot like when he first got his speed back after Hal wiped his memory and the raindrops seemed to stop.)

You're interpretation's probably right.

Originally posted by Galan007
No.

The only reason Wally became as fast as Zoom upon absorbing Jesse's speed, was because her connection to the speed force somehow allowed Wally to nearly stop time around him - shatter all laws of physics. He and Zoom were locked between the ticks of a second, literally . The space gem does not allow for that type of action.

Having said that, my statement still holds true.
Does the Runner even NEED the Space Gem for that kind of thing? I was under the impression that he was able to function like that after his race with Makkari when the Eternal got stuck in "Ultimate Speed Mode"?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ah, you know, I just assumed that it was kind of a figure of speech. 'Time nearly stops around me' etc. Just thought that meant they were going so fast that that's what it looked like (a lot like when he first got his speed back after Hal wiped his memory and the raindrops seemed to stop.)

You're interpretation's probably right. Yeah that's why Wally finally became on par with Zoom. But even then it was still a stalemate, for all intents and purposes.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Does the Runner even NEED the Space Gem for that kind of thing? I was under the impression that he was able to function like that after his race with Makkari when the Eternal got stuck in "Ultimate Speed Mode"? You talking about the race in which Makkari beat Runner by "becoming light?" (lolz)

Runner w/ Gem. I don't really see it as much of a competition.

Originally posted by Galan007
You talking about the race in which Makkari beat Runner by "becoming light?" (lolz)
Yeah that's the one. At the end of the race wasn't something said about time being nearly stopped in comparison to them or something to that effect? It's been a bit since I read the issue so I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somehow.

Originally posted by Galan007
You talking about the race in which Makkari beat Runner by "becoming light?" (lolz)

That's the one where the writer was saying stupid things like nothing ever goes faster than light, that light can go as fast as it wants. Etc.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah that's the one. At the end of the race wasn't something said about time being nearly stopped in comparison to them or something to that effect? It's been a bit since I read the issue so I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure it was mentioned. Yeah, Makk's perceptions became heightened to such a level that everything around him was moving so slowly, they were like statues in comparison. This still only means he was viewing local time slower, though - Zoom naturally operates ahead of local time.

Anyhow, I still find it ridiculous that Makk smoked Runner in their race by becoming light. (none)

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Runner w/ Gem. I don't really see it as much of a competition. If you knew nothing of Zoom, perhaps.

You're going by what Runner didn't do with the Space Gem. Not by what the Space Gem is capable of.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, Makk's perceptions became heightened to such a level that everything around him was moving so slowly, they were like statues in comparison. This still only means he was viewing local time slower, though - Zoom naturally operates ahead of local time.

Anyhow, I still find it ridiculous that Makk smoked Runner in their race by becoming light. (none)
Oh I agree about it being ridiculous since Runner's been able to break that barrier since his first appearance, but the end effect was the same. If Wally matched Zoom's speed by going so fast that time nearly stopped in relation to them, then there's at least SOME evidence to suggest that Runner could keep up even without the Space Gem since he's shown the ability to do the same thing. It's not the most concrete evidence mind you, but it's enough to take the notion out of the "unfounded claim" category.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You're going by what Runner didn't do with the Space Gem. Not by what the Space Gem is capable of. I don't care what the space gem is capable of doing under optimal conditions. Why? Because Runner never did much more than teleport form A to B, with it.

Crediting a character with feats they never accomplished = Fail.

Does that mean that's all he can do?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I agree about it being ridiculous since Runner's been able to break that barrier since his first appearance, but the end effect was the same. If Wally matched Zoom's speed by going so fast that time nearly stopped in relation to them, then there's at least SOME evidence to suggest that Runner could keep up even without the Space Gem since he's shown the ability to do the same thing. It's not the most concrete evidence mind you, but it's enough to take the notion out of the "unfounded claim" category. Cool.

But when Wally was able to match Zoom, they were "locked between the ticks of a second." Key word there is, locked. See, time didn't just slow in their battle, as it waged on time had apparently stopped.

Which makes sense. I mean how else could Zoom's speed logically be matched?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Does that mean that's all he can do? As far as I'm concerned, all Runner is capable of doing with the gem, is what he actually did with it on panel .

Should we credit him with greater feats than he ever displayed?

So you argue in favor of Zoom because Runner with the space gem only every teleported from point A to point B?

Also taking into consideration you have a Zoom sig.

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool.

But when Wally was able to match Zoom, they were "locked between the ticks of a second." Key word there is, locked. See, time didn't just slow in their battle, as it waged on time had apparently stopped.

Which makes sense. I mean how else could Zoom's speed logically be matched?
Wait now did time actually stop or just nearly so? I'm just asking because before you said nearly, and that's why I brought up the race.

Originally posted by Galan007
As far as I'm concerned, all Runner is capable of doing with the gem, is what he actually did with it on panel .

Meh. Runner's still FTL. So is Zoom. They're probably comparable, one way or the other. And Runner's still far, far stronger and far, far more durable. I don't get how he puts up too much of a fight.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
So you argue in favor of Zoom because Runner with the space gem only every teleported from point A to point B?

Also taking into consideration you have a Zoom sig.
I don't think he's arguing for Zoom to win, just that Zoom has faster reflexes.

I fail to see how that matters here.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
So you argue in favor of Zoom because Runner with the space gem only every teleported from point A to point B?

Also taking into consideration you have a Zoom sig. Please note that I have never argued in favor of Zoom - just brought up facts to dispute people saying Runner would have no difficulty here...

In fact, here's an excerpt from one of my first posts:Originally posted by Galan007
Understand also, that I have no problem with Runner taking this - I just don't think it'd be easy based on what we saw him actually do with the gem, is all.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait now did time actually stop or just nearly so? I'm just asking because before you said nearly, and that's why I brought up the race. After first taking on Jesse's speed, Wally said time had 'nearly' stopped .

Then after a very brief moment of adjustment, Wally says that they are standing still in time :

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062240_z1.jpg

----

In the next page, Zoom says that Wally had finally made it into his world. They were locked between the ticks of a second:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062241_z2.jpg


It's pretty clear time had stopped, imo.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I fail to see how that matters here.
Because he and Enyalus were discussing which character was faster...

Originally posted by Galan007
Please note that I have never argued in favor of Zoom - just brought up facts to dispute people saying Runner would have no difficulty here...

In fact, here's an excerpt from one of my first posts:

Fair enough.

I was unaware you were having a seperate arguement.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I fail to see how that matters here. Because if Zoom reacts faster than Runner , he could begin a bombardment of several Supermanny face-punches, before Runner was able to move. And how many punches of that level can Runner take? We simply don't know. However, I'd be inclined to think it would do some type of damage.

But yeah that's a dead convo me and Eny had earlier.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because if Zoom reacts faster than Runner , he could begin to bombard with several Supermanny face-punches, before Runner was able to move. And how many punches of that level can Runner take? We simply don't know. However, I'd be inclined to think it would do some type of damage.

Maybe. Or maybe he'd go flying in the air several thousand feet away, and then recover where Zoom couldn't touch him (the air.)

He hits an Amazon 200 times in a second. Those clearly weren't Superman-level blows. Presumably the more powerful the punch, the farther he's going to go flying. Conservation of momentum, and all.

Elders are definetly a conundrum.

Originally posted by Galan007
Fact, here's an excerpt from one of my first posts:

After first taking on Jesse's speed, Wally said time had 'nearly' stopped .

Then after a very brief moment of adjustment, Wally says that they are standing still in time :

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062240_z1.jpg

----

In the next page, Zoom says that Wally had finally made it into his world. They were locked between the ticks of a second:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1062241_z2.jpg


It's pretty clear time had stopped, imo.
Ah, cool...

Originally posted by Harbinger
The Runner gets the Space Gem.

Who wins?

Zoom snatches the gem from Runner...

....then you have Zoom with the gem in hand....



....now THAT is friggin SCARY!


Serious question....Runner would tap the speed force? yes or no.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Serious question....Runner would tap the speed force? yes or no.

Um...they fight in a neutral universe. So in this battle, no. If it was in the DCU, I could see him visiting that dimension.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Um...they fight in a neutral universe. So in this battle, no. If it was in the DCU, I could see him visiting that dimension.

The op didn't specify where the battle takes place.

And no...he couldn't

http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/force.html

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
The op didn't specify where the battle takes place.

Right, which means under standard rules, it's a neutral universe.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
And no...he couldn't

http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/force.html

?

So, Runner can't achieve 'terminal velocity'?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Runner is still FTL without his gem and physically stronger than SS (who is in turn physically stronger than an Enraged Hulk) without aid from momentum.

Good point runner is a powerhouse as well as fast. As far as speed goes though without the gem its goes to zoom.

Hasn't Wonder Woman tapped the speed force on her own?

Originally posted by Original Smurph
Hasn't Wonder Woman tapped the speed force on her own?

She's entered it by running fast, yeah.

runner would do it easily, he'd tap the speed force without even knowing about it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
She's entered it by running fast, yeah. Yet Superman cannot? Laughable. At best.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yet Superman cannot? Laughable. At best.

Obviously Wonder Woman is faster than Superman.




(Actually, a JLA issue with Amazo suggests she can react faster than Superman.)

Originally posted by Enyalus
(Actually, a JLA issue with Amazo suggests she can react faster than Superman.) imo, reaction speed is much different than max speed, in most cases. Having said that, Superman's speed feats trump Dianna's .

Laughable, but that's the way of comics I guess.

Yeah. I agree totally with your post. I think she has the better reaction speeds and he's got the better travel speeds.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yet Superman cannot? Laughable. At best.

there are many characters that can enter the speed force marvel and adam probobly could. Due to the fact that they are not as popular , this may not happen.

If WW can do it BA and cap im sure can and if they can we no supes could. supes is a bit faster then them all.