Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I recognize the huge potential for anger over this topic, but we're having the same discussion in the SW forums, so I'd like to see what arguments will be used in the Lion's den, so to speak.

For the thread's protection, and my own sanity I would appreciate it if insults could be kept to a minimum, and if any fanboyism or intentionally ignorant bias could be kept out entirely.

In the name of fair play I will make a few restrictions. All EU is applicable, so long as it fulfills the canon requirements for its universe. but the Eras will be restricted to any timeperiod shown in one of the television shows (obviously for Trek) in at least five episodes: there will be no 30th century tech used in this discussion. Also, I am banning Q, the Douwd, and possibly Guinan. Any species with powers bordering or including Omnipotence are barred. Omnipotence simply does not work in a Vs. match.

The Star Wars era that will be used is the Empire era shown in the Original Trilogy. All EU is applicable, so long as it fulfills the canon requirements for its universe. For clarity's sake: The Empire's army does not include Jedi, but it does have Lord Vader, The Emperor, many Emperor's Hands (Force Sensitive assassins) and other trainees in the Dark Side.

This is for a military conflict, so ST can not make alliances that do not exist onscreen: The Borg cannot ally itself with the Federation Government, nor with the Dominion. The Romulan empire (I think) can't ally with the Vulcans/Klingons.


I will be arguing in favor of the Empire's capacity to defeat any single Star Trek group: They can take the Federation -OR- the Borg. I don't think they could take both at once.

Thoughts? Sorry it is so long, but this topic has a large potential to get out of hand and the narrower I make it now the fewer problems there will be down the line.

why the huge restrictions?...is it because, as pointed out in the SW forum, that the reality is that ST would win over SW, all things considered.

regardless. the dominion, cardassian, breen alliance that exists in DS9, at full strength and from what is known about weapons of those races then they have the advantage

cardassian weapons:
trilithium resin
polaron torpedos
the dreadnaught
the long range tactical armour unit series 5

dominion strength

Jem'Hadar warrior able to be grown in 3 days in desired quantities
designed to not require rest or have needs that "normal" troops require i.e no leisure or recreation time. they can fight constantly and their only requirement for effective fighting is a drug.

as for the idea that there was no alliance between the federation and the borg....that's not true...they cooperated in order to fight species 8472 and it's feasible they could do so again under threat from the galactic empire.

nothing shown in star wars could have much effect on what i've seen of ablative armour (which i've shown both the federation and borg have) as it is designed specifically to work again direct energy weapons which is almost the entire capability of the galactic empire's fleet.

then there is, as i've also mentioned, the borg's capability to adapt to enemy weaponary after only a few exposures to it. we've not seen any evidence to suggest that the galactic empire's weaponry can be as easily altered as the federations in terms of frequency changing phasers and even they were only succesful for a short period of time.

speaking of species 8472...not much is known of their numbers but they come from an alternate liquid universe and were virtually indestructible in terms of conventional weapons and only a specific biological weapon had any effect.

then there's the Krenim. a race which has at it's disposal, temporal weapons...they were not the dominant species in their sector of the delta quadrant but a single shot from the temporal weapon shit changed that. all that would be required is to target specific empire events....wipe the birth of palpatine or the discovery of vader from the past...or the creation of the clone army...or whatever they deemed to be the most effective target....they have ability to destroy an entire species much as Kevin Uxbridge (The douwd lifeform) had.

they also have chroniton torpedos which phase out of normal time and thus standard shielding has no effect on their ability.

in terms of travel speed. standard engines SW has it as hyperspeed beats warpspeed

prometheus class ships are fitted with ablative armour and transwarp capability (as do Borg some borg vessels)

as for what difference the sith would make to the fight i wouldn't wish to guess but if we were to take the events of return of the jedi as an example of whether they could directly influence a massive space battle...the answer would be simply no.

i'm not sure what super weapons from SW fall within the empire era as you define, aside from the death star of course. as i haven't read alot of the canon EU stuff from that period.

also...it's debatable when the start of the empire actually is...some argue that it's when palpatine takes charge of the senate and instigates the clone wars...some when he finally reveals himself to be a sith lord and officially declares the 1st galactic empire

obviously this would have a huge bearing on the number of jedi available to the SW universe who i have no doubt could cause alot of havoc with the participants from the ST universe.

Originally posted by jaden101
why the huge restrictions?...is it because, as pointed out in the SW forum, that the reality is that ST would win over SW, all things considered.


They would win because of omnipotent beings, but ultimately from a technological standpoint the Star Trek universe would be no match.

And by the by, I'm not going to say this is definitive proof, but here's Stardestroyer. net, for a good read.

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/

The restrictions were basically to avoid a "Q turns them all into X-mas ornaments" debacle and to avoid "All of the species ever combine into the Borg and beat Palpatine in a nanosecond. If you think its too restrictive what would you have done?


Notice that I said "Borg and Federation Government, not just Federation. The Council did not approve it, so it does not count. That was pretty much the point of that section. Sheer numbers of anything can take out a superior foe, but the truth is that SW tech is superior to ST in almost every way.

To your questions:
RE: Jedi- I do not consider the empire to have risen until after the Jedi Purge: Jedi will not fight on the side of the Empire.
RE: Superweapons: If it existed during the Empire's reign then it is available. Centerpoint, then, is usable, as is the Sun Crusher. In addition to these weapons are the World Devestators, which are a feat in and of themselves.

The bottom line is that a single state originating in the Star Trek universe does not have the capacity to defeat the Empire in a war. The Empire has superior weaponry, power capabilities, travel, tactics and a war mentality. The Federation, at relative technical parity with its contemporaries, wouldn't have a snowball's chance at standing up to the Empire. Nor would any of the other organizations during the period shown in Star Trek.

I will attempt to summarize my arguments after I eat dinner. I might be back in about an hour.

Don't forget the Galaxy gun. A Star Destroyer that's firing range was .

Though actually I'm not sure if the GG counts here.

the fact that it's "stardestroyer.net" might give away its bias somewhat

besides...

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWbta.html

somewhat negates it's points about shield abilities

again from the same source in terms of weapon ranges



and



ironically, one of the point i made about Han's comment is mentioned also in part of the link

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWdsimpfleetsize.html

just a few paragraphs in

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The restrictions were basically to avoid a "Q turns them all into X-mas ornaments" debacle and to avoid "All of the species ever combine into the Borg and beat Palpatine in a nanosecond. If you think its too restrictive what would you have done?

Notice that I said "Borg and Federation Government, not just Federation. The Council did not approve it, so it does not count. That was pretty much the point of that section. Sheer numbers of anything can take out a superior foe, but the truth is that SW tech is superior to ST in almost every way.

To your questions:
RE: Jedi- I do not consider the empire to have risen until after the Jedi Purge: Jedi will not fight on the side of the Empire.
RE: Superweapons: If it existed during the Empire's reign then it is available. Centerpoint, then, is usable, as is the Sun Crusher. In addition to these weapons are the World Devestators, which are a feat in and of themselves.

The bottom line is that a single state originating in the Star Trek universe does not have the capacity to defeat the Empire in a war. The Empire has superior weaponry, power capabilities, travel, tactics and a war mentality. The Federation, at relative technical parity with its contemporaries, wouldn't have a snowball's chance at standing up to the Empire. Nor would any of the other organizations during the period shown in Star Trek.

I will attempt to summarize my arguments after I eat dinner. I might be back in about an hour.

you're making blanket statement again

tactics are debatable...war mentality is certainly debatable given what we see of stormtroopers and their small talk as well as their ineptitude in general...compare that with the Jem'Hadar and they're onto a severe loss.

superior weaponry is again debatable...perhaps in terms of raw power...but in delivery they have no idea of temporal phasing weapons and other such ST technologies.

you haven't ever addressed any of those issues in any of the threads.

if you show that the empire has a feasible way to tackle some of the weapons i've mentioned then put it forward...otherwise you'll have to stop simply insisting that SW has superior weapons.




you're simply playing with semantics with this point. given that sworn enemies have often combined to tackle foes in the ST universe. to discount the alliance between the borg and voyager on the basis that the federation command didn't approve is silly given that they couldn't even communicate with the federation command. it seems like merely a blatent attempt at trying to disallow such thing purely on the basis that you know the results would be detrimental to your arguments.

anyway...you're off for dinner...i'm off to bed...it's 3am here

goodnight all

Heh. All the Star Trek folk'd have to do, is beam into what ever star destryoyers are hanging about, with armed quantum weapons and lit the fuse and runbeam back out...

(As long whatever craft they are in's shields can withstand an assault for the time in which it takes to do that quick beam in/beam out)

A good counter move would be infecting the federation fleet with kaminoan Jar-Jar clones that would evetually destroy the fleet with incompetance and slapstick mayhem.

It seems like everything in Star Wars comes down to "get behind their defences and deactivate the shields allowing the troops to attack en mass.)

And on top of that, Star Trek is based on a earth future.

So they will all have seen the DVDs and will know how to defeat the empire anyhow...

as the links i've gave show...all the ST ships need to do if fire barrages of transphasic torpedos from well outwith the range of the stardestroyers.

1: there's no evidence that SD's can mount an effective defence against the transphasic weapons
2: even if they were to get in close enough, ablative armour negates direct energy weapons power regardless of whether the ST ships can generate shields that can withstand turbo-laser fire.

in the other thread in the SW section i gave the ground war to the SW galaxy...now in hindsight and i think ST might have it as we've seen what the SW weapons have done when princess leia gets hit by fire from storm troopers it barely grazes her...ST standard phasers can either knock someone unconscious or completely vapourise them and that's the least powerful federation handheld weapons.

Originally posted by jaden101
as the links i've gave show...all the ST ships need to do if fire barrages of transphasic torpedos from well outwith the range of the stardestroyers.

1: there's no evidence that SD's can mount an effective defence against the transphasic weapons
2: even if they were to get in close enough, ablative armour negates direct energy weapons power regardless of whether the ST ships can generate shields that can withstand turbo-laser fire.

in the other thread in the SW section i gave the ground war to the SW galaxy...now in hindsight and i think ST might have it as we've seen what the SW weapons have done when princess leia gets hit by fire from storm troopers it barely grazes her...ST standard phasers can either knock someone unconscious or completely vapourise them and that's the least powerful federation handheld weapons. [/QUOTE

Excellent points, Jaden.

But I would dispute that the ground battle advantages automatically are the federations as the Death Star factor negates that.

You do make a powerful case for Phaser superiority, although
it was the energy weapon equivalent of a glancing blow barely- touched-her-kind-of-shot though in 'Jedi'. Look at what blasters did to everything and everyone else in the saga (The dirty great chuncks of hangar ceiling taken out by Solo's blaster in 'ANH')... They aint no elastic band in the eye...

Maybe the blaster shot was from a blaster low on power...?
I bet low power phasers are shit too.


Sad to hear about Majel Roddenberry.

Originally posted by jaden101
in the other thread in the SW section i gave the ground war to the SW galaxy...now in hindsight and i think ST might have it as we've seen what the SW weapons have done when princess leia gets hit by fire from storm troopers it barely grazes her...ST standard phasers can either knock someone unconscious or completely vapourise them and that's the least powerful federation handheld weapons.

Wasn't she hit in the hand, also if the sw blaster rifles as weak as you seem to apply then Storm troopers shouldn't be getting killed with one hit. He raw power in the force might have came into play but I can't argue that either way. On the ground the empire's force users will come into play which will provide a tough challenge to any ST ground forces , the same will the Empire's armor division which includes AT-ATs.

Infantry, I suspect is closer depending on a what Storm troopers are on the ground. The best storm troopers are the clones that were created from Jango Fett's(other capable men were also cloned at later dates) DNA. The non clone storm troopers are not at the level as the clone storm troopers but they still have to go through training. Another factor would be some of the special troopers of the empire such as the dark troopers,etc.

I hadn't actually considered the ground attack vehicles to be honest...but yes that might well swing it the other way...most startrek ground battles are hand-to-hand or with hand held weapons rather than in any kind of vehicle.

actually from what i know of storm troopers they aren't from Jango fett as the Kaminoans in their fight against the empire began to deliberately introduce defects into the clones and so they replaced by volunteers and conscripts...at least that's my understanding...i'm sure i read it somewhere...regardless Jem'Hadar shock troopers would be far more powerful on the ground than stormtroopers of clone troopers

When we examine all the available data objectively we find that Star Wars has technological superiority when compared to Star Trek. Even when only looking at published numbers, Star Wars has objective, provable superiority in transportation, weaponry and shielding. With some extrapolation we can deduce superior tactical sensor systems, tactics, numbers and ground capabilities.

EDIT: This (the bold) was all that I had time to address. The rest will come during the next few posts. Sorry for the delay.

Locomotion
In any large scale confrontation, transportation of troops and supplies plays as important a role as does actual combat. In this area the Empire has an advantage over any of the Star Trek species- including the Borg. Hyperdrive is far faster a means of travel. The Galactic Empire ruled almost the entire galaxy. Traversing even a third of the distance of the galactic diameter (from the edge of the core to the outer rim) of even the smallest galaxy is a tremendous feat not replicable by the Federation. It would have taken Voyager many decades (80 years maybe?) to reach earth from the Delta Quadrant. Star Wars technology is able to make a similar trip in a matter of days rather than years. During the events leading up to Episode 3 Obi-Wan and Anakin were conducting the 'Outer Rim Sieges.' They were able to make it to the Battle of Couruscant within a very small amount of time, and without much prep time- they were in combat directly before making the jump into battle. (I'm looking for a timeline- I'll have to substantiate this next post. Maybe EH can help out here- I'm not very good at dates/time lines.)

Star Trek: ~80 years in superluminal speeds to traverse a galaxy.
Star Wars: ~Days, possibly weeks if other sources are examined. (I'll investigate this more fully at another time- I just want to keep going with this tonight.)

Weaponry
The conventional weaponry of Star Wars outclasses that of Star Trek. I will not debate superweapons in this section- that will be the final part of this post.
Handheld
Phasers: In the hand held form they are startlingly inaccurate- they have no form of sights or guidance system. True proficiency must therefore come only with years (or at least months) of practice. Phaser rifles are much more practical, and have greater applicability in tactical (battle) situations, yet they are not shown to be more powerful than a solid blaster rifle. Phasers are often used within a ship as a defensive tool (look at any of the attempted/successful boardings of Voyager/the Enterprise) yet there is rarely any significant damage to the ship itself. When combat extends to a cargo bay (as it often did during Voyager's cruise) the containers are not shown to be damaged by the stray shots.

-Damage potential: Phasers are shown to be very effective at killing single, unarmored enemies. When set to full power, the phaser has been shown to remove an organic being from existence. (vaporization might be the wrong word- the disappearance of the body has no outward effect on the surroundings.) They have not shown much utility when aimed at metal: the walls and floor of starships are often unaffected by phasers, and storage crates are sufficient cover for an extended firefight. When pitted against Stormtrooper armor there is a possibility that each kill might require multiple shots.


Blasters
Traditional Wars weaponry encompasses 'blaster' rifles, pistols and sniper-rifles. All have greater accuracy potential than conventional phasers, as shown by Han shooting out the controls for a blast door (to delay Vader in ANH) from across a hangar. Accuracy is maintained over a greater range than Star Trek's weapons.
-Damage potential: Blasters are enough to blow chunks out of walls and leave charring on starship hulls. During the 1st scene of ANH, the collateral damage from richochettes (sp?) quickly filled the hallway with smoke. The entire area was quickly totaled. Blasters have shown a greater potential for destruction, so they must be considered more powerful, if not as versatile. When it comes down to a fight though, would you like to be able to heat rocks or be able to blow up part of a wall?

Ship Mounted phasers:
These work on the same principle as regular phasers, but are (most likely) many, many times more powerful. The omnidirectionality of point defense systems (or phaser arrays) would give the Federations a much needed advantage when faced with the swarm tactics of fighters. I will try to find/generate some estimates of phaser destructive/fire power.

Turbolasers:
-Mechanics: ICS (AotC) describes the energy weapons on starships as 'invisible energy beams that travel at lightspeed.' The visible bolts' light depletes the overall energy of the beam, decreasing its range. Turbolasers gain a larger range by spinning the beam, reducing its glow.

SW clearly does not use lasers, nor does it use a phaser based technology. Direct comparrison is therefore difficult, because SW weapons rely on direct energy transfer while Phasers appear to set up a chain reaction.

-Utility: Turbolasers have been shown to hit extremely fast moving fighters at difficult angles. Star Trek Ships are (almost?) all larger than the fighters used in dogfighting, so they are more likely to be hit.




This was all that I had time for- I meant to back up the weaponry section with a part on energy production, and I haven't had a chance to look up major Star Trek Superweapons. I'll try to post another section within 8-10 hours, but sledding and this Gears 2 competition both come before KMC. (Who wouldn't rather go sledding than sit in a chair?)

1: hyperdrive isn't faster than transwarp...the figures speak for themselves...the SW galaxy map said that, dependant on the hyperdrive used that an SW ship can travel the entire width of the galaxy between a few weeks and a few months....transwarp can deploy anywhere in the galaxy within a few minutes...

it should also be noted that warp speed is a logarithmic scale in which warp 6 is equal to 392 times the speed of light and warp 9 is 1649 times the speed of light.

warp 10 is actually considered infinite speed (and is attained in 1 episode of voyager) in the star trek universe and the prometheus class are capable of attaining warp 9.99

as for accuracy...Stormtroopers are meant to be highly trained yet they are notorious for missing their targets....obviously this is more for dramatic effect (as it is in star trek) because if the weapons were all supremely accurate and the people using them were extremely proficient then we wouldn't have much of a story line as everyone important would be dead in the 1st shoot out.

oh...and hope you win the gears 2 comp

hmm

i'll leave this open for now...

scared of flaming?...wouldn't worry too much...only the ones who are up for proper debate from the starwars forum have come over so far and we've all been civilised

Originally posted by jaden101
why the huge restrictions?...is it because, as pointed out in the SW forum, that the reality is that ST would win over SW, all things considered.


Exactly.

This thread was had in the GDF, the ST side was constantly gimped, while the SW side could draw on the likes of the Emperor and his ability to destroy entire armadas with a Force-fart.

Originally posted by Robtard
Exactly.

This thread was had in the GDF, the ST side was constantly gimped, while the SW side could draw on the likes of the Emperor and his ability to destroy entire armadas with a Force-fart.

Well, Star Trek has omnipotence, so that has to be limited or else there can be no comparrison. The rest of my post was just trying to narrow down what we'd be debating: an argument about all of the ships ever during ST vs. the Empire, or even Vs. all the ships in SW seems (seemed) too unwieldy to discuss intelligently. Mostly, I didn't want to hear (and still don't, ever, during the entire course of my life) that there would simply be kamikazee attacks at every SW ship and that ST would win simply through numbers.

In any one on one empire vs. empire fight Star Wars will win.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, Star Trek has omnipotence, so that has to be limited or else there can be no comparrison. The rest of my post was just trying to narrow down what we'd be debating: an argument about all of the ships ever during ST vs. the Empire, or even Vs. all the ships in SW seems (seemed) too unwieldy to discuss intelligently. Mostly, I didn't want to hear (and still don't, ever, during the entire course of my life) that there would simply be kamikazee attacks at every SW ship and that ST would win simply through numbers.

In any one on one empire vs. empire fight Star Wars will win.

I understand that, as Q could blink and the empire would be gone. But gimping the uber powers of ST away, while allowing the uber power in SW like the Emperor in the EU, isn't a fair compromise. Vader too, as he's even more of a bad-ass in the EU.

Now, as strict ship battle and/or soldier/personnel battle is fair.

I disagree, one thing that SW has which when used properly would be an extremely effective weapon, are the use of the transporter technology. Beaming a squad of armed people directly to the helm or engine(s) room of a ST ship could be fatal, especially a ship currently engaged in combat with another ship.

Originally posted by Robtard
I understand that, as Q could blink and the empire would be gone. But gimping the uber powers of ST away, while allowing the uber power in SW like the Emperor in the EU, isn't a fair compromise. Vader too, as he's even more of a bad-ass in the EU.
Fair enough- The emperor isn't usually a combatant, so if we keep the two as non-combatants (able to affect strategy but not combat) it seems fair. When we look at how the empire splintered after the Emperor's death we see that it can't function without him. I am willing to suspend his combat facilities.
Originally posted by Robtard

Now, as strict ship battle and/or soldier/personnel battle is fair.

That was the format I was originally looking for.
Originally posted by Robtard

I disagree, one thing that SW has which when used properly would be an extremely effective weapon, are the use of the transporter technology. Beaming a squad of armed people directly to the helm or engine(s) room of a ST ship could be fatal, especially a ship currently engaged in combat with another ship.
ST's teleporters do have a very good chance of tipping a battle, but the multitude of external forces that make the technology worthless seems to make it a non-factor. Teleporters do not work through shields (especially unfamiliar ones like the Empire's) or through many types of Radiation. The technology itself seems to be unreliable: in many episodes (again, I think- my knowledge of ST is not huge) of TNG the failure of transporters is the crux of the plot.

What the expedition team could hope to accomplish is also questionable: the crew of a SD are all armed: even the technicians that operated the Death Star's Superlaser carried pistols.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Weaponry
The conventional weaponry of Star Wars outclasses that of Star Trek. I will not debate superweapons in this section- that will be the final part of this post.
Handheld
Phasers: In the hand held form they are startlingly inaccurate- they have no form of sights or guidance system. True proficiency must therefore come only with years (or at least months) of practice. Phaser rifles are much more practical, and have greater applicability in tactical (battle) situations, yet they are not shown to be more powerful than a solid blaster rifle. Phasers are often used within a ship as a defensive tool (look at any of the attempted/successful boardings of Voyager/the Enterprise) yet there is rarely any significant damage to the ship itself. When combat extends to a cargo bay (as it often did during Voyager's cruise) the containers are not shown to be damaged by the stray shots.

-Damage potential: Phasers are shown to be very effective at killing single, unarmored enemies. When set to full power, the phaser has been shown to remove an organic being from existence. (vaporization might be the wrong word- the disappearance of the body has no outward effect on the surroundings.) They have not shown much utility when aimed at metal: the walls and floor of starships are often unaffected by phasers, and storage crates are sufficient cover for an extended firefight. When pitted against Stormtrooper armor there is a possibility that each kill might require multiple shots.


http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Phaser#Sidearm_settings

hand phasers on a high enough setting will turn stormtrooper armour to mush. not just one stormtrooper, either...

just saying...

also, if i can find the phaser power chart i had, ill scan it...

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


ST's teleporters do have a very good chance of tipping a battle, but the multitude of external forces that make the technology worthless seems to make it a non-factor. Teleporters do not work through shields (especially unfamiliar ones like the Empire's) or through many types of Radiation. The technology itself seems to be unreliable: in many episodes (again, I think- my knowledge of ST is not huge) of TNG the failure of transporters is the crux of the plot.

What the expedition team could hope to accomplish is also questionable: the crew of a SD are all armed: even the technicians that operated the Death Star's Superlaser carried pistols.

Many an episode also had instances of them quickly adjusting their "frequencies" and getting transporting through shields. The Federation was able to do this to the Borg on occasion, though not consistently. So it is possible.

They'd still have the element of a surprise attack. Also, the transporting of explosives is another option, as a Star Destroyer would be severely damages if a photon torpedo detonated in the engine room, no?

Not saying ST would win indefinitely, but your claim of 'SW will always win over ST', just isn't logical.

the federations transporters don't work through shields, that's true. they also have added problem (as is stated in several episodes of the next generation) that there is a slight delay in materialisation and being able to move that allows enemies to attack

the borg, on the other hand, have no such problems with their transporter technology

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Don't forget the Galaxy gun. A Star Destroyer that's firing range was .

Though actually I'm not sure if the GG counts here. Does the Sun Crusher count?

Kirk wins this on his own. biscuits

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Does the Sun Crusher count?

it does...don't entirely see what use it would be though given that ships in ST have been seen easily outrunning supernova.

But Earth or other federation planets'd be vulnerable, due to their crap manuverability..

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
But Earth or other federation planets'd be vulnerable, due to their crap manuverability..

This is true, but I'd also like to bring to light the epic-level of idiocy the Empire has. They build a death machine the size of a small moon, yet they leave it so vulnerable that it can be obliterated by a single shot.

Originally posted by jaden101
the federations transporters don't work through shields, that's true. they also have added problem (as is stated in several episodes of the next generation) that there is a slight delay in materialisation and being able to move that allows enemies to attack

the borg, on the other hand, have no such problems with their transporter technology

The shield factor has been countered on more than one occasion, so it isn't necessarily concrete.

Has anyone brought up cloaking, which several ST races use? Definite tactical advantage there for the ST teams.

for the most part, cloaking devices can be tracked...and come SW ships also have cloaking devices (starkiller's in the force unleashed if that's to be taken as canon) although it's not clear whether their cloaks are merely to hide from sensors rather than a visible cloak as well.

only the reman scimitar has had a perfect cloak...and that ship in itself would be more than a match for an entire fleet of star destroyers

it could deploy shields, travel at warp and fire weapons all at the same time...it had 52 disruptor banks, 27 photon torpedo bays and a thaelaron radiation superweapon.

cloaking devices can be tracked if you know how.

during the dominion war, even the jem'hadar couldn't stop romulan forces from attacking their bases using stealth, and they use anti-proton scans regularly.

I want to make this clear: I like SW over ST

However, a Defiant class can destroy an SD. How do you want to kill a SD? Gut it's belly. Don't think of the Enterprise-E slugging it out with an SD at long range. SD don't have point-blank defense systems to handle an agile, fast and overgunned ship like a Defiant. SW shields are not that strong. A Defiant would rip through them like a hot knife through butter. A couple of quantum torpedoes would not just penetrate a SD armor, but entire decks would be torn to pieces. Key systems would go offline and surprise - you have a vulnerable SD.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Don't think of the Enterprise-E slugging it out with an SD at long range.

and why not?...here's a weapons range image showing levels for a stardestroyer and an ST ship

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/VisAid/weaponrange.jpg

A SD has more turbolaser batteries. The Enterprise - E has 12 phaser banks.

Enterprise has 8 times the range, that aside, the SD loses on stupid names alone, "turbolaser", lame.

Originally posted by jaden101
and why not?...here's a weapons range image showing levels for a stardestroyer and an ST ship


Should have known there exist a ST Vs. SW site... I'll have to scope it later.

Originally posted by jaden101
and why not?...here's a weapons range image showing levels for a stardestroyer and an ST ship

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/VisAid/weaponrange.jpg

Dont squadrons of TIEs affect/increase that range for the empire..?

@Jaden, where did you find that pic?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
@Jaden, where did you find that pic?

st-v-sw.net

I watched 'First Contact' last night. I gotta say, the combat in that looked like it took place at distances far smaller than '200,000 K.' The Defiant was close enough to contemplate 'ramming speed' without worrying that the Cube would simply obliterate their ship before they got close. Ships could be seen disappearing behind the Cube as they circled- if combat took place from such a large distance then they would not have been able to circumnavigate the cube so quickly.


Quick question- is the Dominion a more dangerous force than the Borg? Picard's narration calls the Borg their 'Greatest threat.' It might be nice to know which of the two major threats is more powerful. (Sub discussion/New thread: Borg Vs. Dominion)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I watched 'First Contact' last night. I gotta say, the combat in that looked like it took place at distances far smaller than '200,000 K.' The Defiant was close enough to contemplate 'ramming speed' without worrying that the Cube would simply obliterate their ship before they got close. Ships could be seen disappearing behind the Cube as they circled- if combat took place from such a large distance then they would not have been able to circumnavigate the cube so quickly.


Quick question- is the Dominion a more dangerous force than the Borg? Picard's narration calls the Borg their 'Greatest threat.' It might be nice to know which of the two major threats is more powerful. (Sub discussion/New thread: Borg Vs. Dominion)

the borg are considered the most dangerous threat in star trek. dominion are close though... species 8472 too...

the federation alliance beat the dominion, after all... voyager hurt them, but being the borg, they'll recover...

the dominion have larger forces in number and control the entire gamma quadrant where as the borg only control the inner portions of the delta quadrant with the Kazon controlling the outer areas... but apart from the Bajoran wormhole the dominion have no way to deploy forces in the alpha quadrant...unlike the borg with their transwarp

and the defiant was pretty battered by the borg ship but it's ablative armour would probably have held enough to allow it to ram the cube.

but yes...the battles did happen from smaller distances than 200,000km but often on star trek, vessels have fired standard weapons from extremely far distances accurately

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I want to make this clear: I like SW over ST

However, a Defiant class can destroy an SD. How do you want to kill a SD? Gut it's belly. Don't think of the Enterprise-E slugging it out with an SD at long range. SD don't have point-blank defense systems to handle an agile, fast and overgunned ship like a Defiant. SW shields are not that strong. A Defiant would rip through them like a hot knife through butter. A couple of quantum torpedoes would not just penetrate a SD armor, but entire decks would be torn to pieces. Key systems would go offline and surprise - you have a vulnerable SD.


The Defiant's soooo small!! it just wuldnt look right if it took down a Star Destroyer!! Lol!

Off topic how wuld the Defiant fair against the Enterprise-E?? which ship has more powerful phasers, shields, and which has more quantum torpedoes?? In First Contact the Enterprise E is called the most "Advanced ship in the fleet".. the fleet includes the defiant.. and they just call the defiant a "Tough LITTLE ship."

First to respond to TIE fighters. A starfighters weapons systems just can't stop a ST capital ship. ST shields are just too strong.

Borg vs Dominion:

VERY good fight. Assuming that the Borg doesn't assimilate the Alpha quadrant, it would be a barroom brawl. A standard Borg ship is a Cube. Dominion would believe that maybe 5 to 6 tops battleships would destroy it. But they would run into problems when the Cube's shields adapted to their disruptors and torpedoes. Jem'Hadar crew would scratch their heads in disbelief.

Meanwhile, Borg torpedoes and disruptors would tear through Dominion shields and and destroy their vessels. But more than likely, one ship would be assimilated to asses their technological status. Then Dominion would wage a total war against the Borg. Victor? I don't know because the Borg have trillions of drones and the Dominion can clone trillions of troops and build entire fleets. But, both side would be severely weakened.

In one episode, their was almost a civil war in the Federation. The Defiant engaged a ship similar in size of the Enterprise. The Defiant beat it up so badly that the ship's captain considered using quantum torpedoes against the Defiant to even the odds. So in short, both ships Enterprise and Defiant would be rendered combat ineffective.

Against an SD? Rapid fire phasers and quantum torpedoes would tear an SD to pieces. Sure it would look ridiculous, but in Episode V when Han made that "attack" run against the SD, why did it's captain raise shields? Point made

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
First to respond to TIE fighters. A starfighters weapons systems just can't stop a ST capital ship. ST shields are just too strong.

Borg vs Dominion:

VERY good fight. Assuming that the Borg doesn't assimilate the Alpha quadrant, it would be a barroom brawl. A standard Borg ship is a Cube. Dominion would believe that maybe 5 to 6 tops battleships would destroy it. But they would run into problems when the Cube's shields adapted to their disruptors and torpedoes. Jem'Hadar crew would scratch their heads in disbelief.

Meanwhile, Borg torpedoes and disruptors would tear through Dominion shields and and destroy their vessels. But more than likely, one ship would be assimilated to asses their technological status. Then Dominion would wage a total war against the Borg. Victor? I don't know because the Borg have trillions of drones and the Dominion can clone trillions of troops and build entire fleets. But, both side would be severely weakened.

well for a start the dominion don't really use disruptors or torpedos...their weapons are predominantly polaron beam weapons (which the borg use as scanning beams)

the dominion also have the most advanced transporters in that they can transport troops as far as 3 light years

one thing i was thinking about in the st v sw debate...the borg use the line "we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own"...what if they were to assimilate a jedi...would they all, through the hive collective, have force powers?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Defiant's soooo small!! it just wuldnt look right if it took down a Star Destroyer!! Lol!

Off topic how wuld the Defiant fair against the Enterprise-E?? which ship has more powerful phasers, shields, and which has more quantum torpedoes?? In First Contact the Enterprise E is called the most "Advanced ship in the fleet".. the fleet includes the defiant.. and they just call the defiant a "Tough LITTLE ship."

enterprise has more powerful and better phasers. it has more quantum torpedoes. it has armour too, just not as much coverage as the defiant might.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
In one episode, their was almost a civil war in the Federation. The Defiant engaged a ship similar in size of the Enterprise. The Defiant beat it up so badly that the ship's captain considered using quantum torpedoes against the Defiant to even the odds. So in short, both ships Enterprise and Defiant would be rendered combat ineffective.

Against an SD? Rapid fire phasers and quantum torpedoes would tear an SD to pieces. Sure it would look ridiculous, but in Episode V when Han made that "attack" run against the SD, why did it's captain raise shields? Point made

paradise lost part 2. the lakota...

lakota wouldnt match the enterprise e though...

No. Only that Drone would have Force sensitivity. The EU and even Ep. 1 The Phantom Menace makes it very clear that Force Sensitivity is hereditary. Assimilating a Jedi wouldn't give the rest of the drones Midichlorians.

they may not be able to actively use the force but they would be aware of it's uses through the collective...so if all the other drones are aware of a drones force sensitivity then i see no reason why the force sensitive drone cant be aware of things, via the force, that all the other drones are experiencing.

While I think your reasoning is sound, as the Borg are essentially one being split into billions of parts (drones), the Borg being aware of the Force, or knowing when Jedi/Sith are near won't be a huge tactical advantage, as they'd probably already be aware via use of bio-scans.

Originally posted by Robtard
While I think your reasoning is sound, as the Borg are essentially one being split into billions of parts (drones), the Borg being aware of the Force, or knowing when Jedi/Sith are near won't be a huge tactical advantage, as they'd probably already be aware via use of bio-scans.

which does bring up another good point...if ST troops were to transport onto an Stardestroyer...do the SW ships even have any internal sensors to detect them?...

Originally posted by jaden101
which does bring up another good point...if ST troops were to transport onto an Stardestroyer...do the SW ships even have any internal sensors to detect them?...

Good point, I don't think they can.

They weren't able to find Solo and the crew when they captured and brought the Falcon onboard. That shit would never fly in ST, unless the person hiding had some cloaking device or way to jam the sensors.

In theory, a well armed ST team transporting into an area without SW personnel could easily arm charges and beam out. Once shields weakened due to combat or they were overridden.

They found Anakin/Obi-Wan on the Invisible Hand easily enough. In Han's case I suspect that the news of their escape took a while to drift upward- the troopers certainly kept up with them after they left the garbage chute. Han and Luke were disguised during the first part of the chase- the troopers didn't even know that they were on board. It is very unlikely that the Empire will be so ignorant of a Star Trek boarding party. Once they were found out, they were tracked even through the garbage compressor and as they split up- troopers were dispatched to all of the positions that Luke/Leia, Han/Chewie or Kenobi went to.


When they knew to look for someone (as they would during combat) there was no difficulty at all.

Originally posted by Raoul
paradise lost part 2. the lakota...

lakota wouldnt match the enterprise e though...


I remember that episode. The Lakotas weapons were given a HUGE upgrade.. "Thats wayyyy too much fire power for an excelsior class ship"- Cheif O'Brien.. plus it had quantum torpedoes, so maybe it culd've matched the Enterprise -E.

Oh man. I drove people up the wall on the Star Wars forum referencing time weaponry and pointing out hilarious openings like your fleets not having weapons on their underside.

i suppose one thing that works against the ST ships that should be considered is that the phasers are generally the secondary weapon leaving the torpedos of what ever variety as the primary weapon and these are finite in number on each ship....where as any kind of primary laser weapon is solely dependant on the power generators of a ship functioning

I have played(& Game mastered for them) both roleplaying systems(i have the rulbooks etc etc),and i have read numerous novels from each,and of course the movies,tv shows etc.....i know its not canon,and this is only my opinon....

Star Trek for the majority

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I remember that episode. The Lakotas weapons were given a HUGE upgrade.. "Thats wayyyy too much fire power for an excelsior class ship"- Cheif O'Brien.. plus it had quantum torpedoes, so maybe it culd've matched the Enterprise -E.

the E still has better shields, better armour, more phaser coverage (and just plain better phasers), more torpedo bays, etc...

even if the lakota can get a spread of quantums off early, the E still has it outclassed imo...

A quick question - does an SD have proton torpedo bays? I don't think so, but I'm not going to say no yet.

Anyway, my favorite ST ship is the Defiant. An SD would be torn to pieces by quantum type weapons. The Enterprise - E is not invincible as was proven in Nemesis. She had to ram the Scimitar to survive the engagement.

Even Thrawn would have to admire a Defiant class warship.

No ship is invincible, though the Enterprise taking on the Scimitar and doing fairly well is a testament to it's abilities, as the Scimitar is a pure killing machine.

Agreed. The Enterprise - E is a hybrid. Warship/Exploration vessel. She was built during the middle of the Dominion War. With 12 phaser arrays, 6 torpedo bays, capacity to do transwarp and enhanced metaphasic shields that is why she survived the engagement despite severe damage.

the Scimitar was a weapon of exceptional power though. It's even possible that it's the single most powerful vessel in the ST universe

and the scimitar, for the most part, wasn't being used to destroy the enterprise because Shinzon needed Picard alive. If he had wanted to destroy the enterprise it would've been easy.

Jaden, you are very knowledgeable about SW & ST. The Scimitar had enough firepower to damage the DS and probably could destroy it due to thaloran weapon radiation.

Wouldn't have to use the thaloran weapon, though it would be the safest and smartest, as it could kill everyone aboard in less than 10 minutes.

Armament: 52 pulse disruptor cannons; 27 photon torpedo launchers.
Defenses: Primary and secondary shields; advanced cloaking device

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Scimitar


It could circle around the DS while cloaked and fire massive volley after massive volley.

Personally I like SW over ST, but I keep getting jumped in their forums. I think they hate me there. Just because I'm pro-Revan doesn't make me the enemy.

Some people just have a hard time being objective, stupid really. It's a silly hypothetical battle over two fictional franchises, Star Trek having superior technology doesn't mean Star Wars is horrible by any means.

Agreed. I think I'll stay out of the SW forums for awhile.

story wise i prefer starwars blatent good versus evil simpleness.

star trek, being a long running franchise with hundreds of episodes and several films, has obviously had the opportunity to introduce more in-depth views of some of it's more peripheral species such as the Ferengi and others via DS9...i think it was also heavily influenced from DS9 onward, by babylon 5 as well as some criticism of it being a far too idealised look at human civilisation...hence came the Maquis resistance to Cardassia and the more seedy aspects of DS9 that remind me a lot of Mos Eisley.

Your insight serves you well...

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Personally I like SW over ST, but I keep getting jumped in their forums. I think they hate me there. Just because I'm pro-Revan doesn't make me the enemy.
It's because you keep bringing up points that multiple members have addressed already. Also it is kind of annoying with the amount of sw vs st threads you made.

In regards to this thread perhaps there should be a discussion about the strategists of the empire compared to the ones in ST (particularly the ones who are from the current military being discussed.)

Originally posted by Elite Hunter

In regards to this thread perhaps there should be a discussion about the strategists of the empire compared to the ones in ST (particularly the ones who are from the current military being discussed.)

Proceed.

As far as I know, the Empire lost to much smaller and less armed group called the 'Rebel Alliance'. The Federation has beaten the Dominion and the held off/defeated the Borg on several occasions. They also had wars with the Klingon and Romulan empires in the past.

The problem with the Rebel Alliance example though is that the Empire was faced with the same problem that the US has right now in Iraq... we don't know who to shoot. If the Rebel Alliance had taken over, say, a planet by force and was holding it as their base of operations, the GE would have ****ed them up.


... though both Death Star's were destroyed in a straight up fight. So meh. The movie depiction of the Empire is pathetic.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
... though both Death Star's were destroyed in a straight up fight. So meh. The movie depiction of the Empire is pathetic.

it was only possible to destroy the death stars with fast and agile small 1 man crafts, and with good pilots. star trek is lacking these things, so no st vessel wuld stand a chance against a death star.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
it was only possible to destroy the death stars with fast and agile small 1 man crafts, and with good pilots. star trek is lacking these things, so no st vessel wuld stand a chance against a death star.

they have their fighters.

and if they knew where to shoot, most star trek vessels have torpedoes that can be guided...

Originally posted by Raoul
they have their fighters.

and if they knew where to shoot, most star trek vessels have torpedoes that can be guided... The pilots of these fighters, are they as good as SW pilots? And are the craft as agile?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
The pilots of these fighters, are they as good as SW pilots? And are the craft as agile?

doesn't really matter...the SW fighters would be totally useless...they don't have the firepower to scratch an ST ship...even Danube class runabouts would take on tie fighters

The SW fighters air to air/space to space combat wise, might have future-seeing Jedi piloting them. Might be harder to draw a bead on those particular flyboys, with the outcome of any action being potentially sussed in advance...

Would even the top federation pilots be able to cope against that advantage on the way in on the attack the Death Stars/Larger ships..?

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
The SW fighters air to air/space to space combat wise, might have future-seeing Jedi piloting them. Might be harder to draw a bead on those particular flyboys, with the outcome of any action being potentially sussed in advance...

Would even the top federation pilots be able to cope against that advantage on the way in on the attack the Death Stars/Larger ships..?

nope



besides if a Jedi in a starfighter can predict the outcome of an encounter then howcome

kDoV7_XV2PE

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
it was only possible to destroy the death stars with fast and agile small 1 man crafts, and with good pilots. star trek is lacking these things, so no st vessel wuld stand a chance against a death star.

Technically if the second death star was completely finished then it wouldn't have had the exhaust port that Luke exploited in A New Hope.

Good point.

I do have to admit that ST has better looking ships than SW. But, it does look a little bit weird that a ragtag group of rebels defeated the Empire. But then again, the United States did defeat England in the Revolutionary War without a professional army and sub standard weapons.

Robtard, you bring up a point that the Federation defeat the Dominion and the Borg. I hate to say this, but that is true only to a certain point of view. The Federation had to assemble an alliance against the Dominion. It was only the Klingons and the Federation who were fighting at the early stages of the war. They were barely holding the line otherwise the Federation would have been overrun. General Martok even admited that the Klingon Empire was barely keeping the Dominion at bay while the Federation was rebuilding the Fleet. It was only until when the Romulans entered the war and the Cardassians rebelled did the war end.

For the Borg, they didn't launch an all out invasion. One Cube isn't enough to conquer the Alpha Quadrant. Now 15 . . . that's an entire differently story. Even for the Empire, if the didn't have any superweapons like the Sun Crusher or Death Star, if 15 or 20 Cubes attacked the SW univerise, there might be a different outcome. ST shields are far stronger than SW shields.

Very true, the Federation did need allies to defeat the Dominion, as they're a seriously power force. But it stands to reason that those alliances could be made again (as specified by the thread starter), if a foreign galactic empire was battling the ST universe.

I didn't mean they defeated the Borg all out, that would be taking out thousands of worlds, just that they were successful in several fights against them.

From what has been shown here, I think the Federation has the ships, personal and overall firepower to take on and eventually defeat the SW Empire/forces without the help of the Klingon or Romulan Empires, but drawing of those empires for help is just a further plus.

I dunno, never underestimate the power of a good soundtrack.

Going into battle to the 'imperial march' would bring out the best world conquering side in me fer sure......

Those Star Trek fleets'll have only Jerry Goldsmith backing 'em up.
(Or even that f***ing dreadful theme song for 'Enterprise'.)

You may scoff, but the military used to send in the troops to speed and death metal for that reason.





However if William Shatner is writing/directing this movie then somehow Kirk will beat the empire to death with his todger, and sleep with all their women.

Originally posted by jaden101
kDoV7_XV2PE

Dunno if this has been addressed or not, but at the time of Order 66, Sideous had cast basically a cloud on all the Jedi's intuition. It was harder than normal to sense certain things, the Clone's betrayal being numero uno.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I dunno, never underestimate the power of a good soundtrack.

Going into battle to the 'imperial march' would bring out the best world conquering side in me fer sure......

Those Star Trek fleets'll have only Jerry Goldsmith backing 'em up.
(Or even that f***ing dreadful theme song for 'Enterprise'.)

You may scoff, but the military used to send in the troops to speed and death metal for that reason.

However if William Shatner is writing/directing this movie then somehow Kirk will beat the empire to death with his todger, and sleep with all their women.

It's been a long road

Get'n from there to here
It's been a long time
But my time is finally near

I will see my dreams come alive at last
I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more
No they're not gonna change my mind

(Chorus)
'Cause I've got faith of the heart
I'm going where my heart will take me
I've got faith to believe
I can do anything
I've got strength of the soul
No one's going to bend nor break me
I can reach any star
I've got faith
I've got faith
Faith of the heart

Sing it, ****, SING IT!

If the ST side gets Shatner at the helm of any ship, it's over for the Empire.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Dunno if this has been addressed or not, but at the time of Order 66, Sideous had cast basically a cloud on all the Jedi's intuition. It was harder than normal to sense certain things, the Clone's betrayal being numero uno.

Jedi still get killed, Force or no, which is the point.

Or maybe, as is actually the case, all the Jedi weren't actually capable of force vision

quote from wooki

"Force Visions were extremely rare, and uncontrollable. Often, one would meditate to gain a vision, but only a few would actually succeed"

Originally posted by Robtard
It's been a long road

Get'n from there to here
It's been a long time
But my time is finally near

I will see my dreams come alive at last
I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more
No they're not gonna change my mind

(Chorus)
'Cause I've got faith of the heart
I'm going where my heart will take me
I've got faith to believe
I can do anything
I've got strength of the soul
No one's going to bend nor break me
I can reach any star
I've got faith
I've got faith
Faith of the heart

Sing it, ****, SING IT!

If the ST side gets Shatner at the helm of any ship, it's over for the Empire.

lolz My ears! They bleed!!!!! My eyes're also bleeding tears of stinging piss with blood in it just having read that.

May Russell Watson be the first up aginst the wall or first packed forcibly into a Photon Torpedo and fired into...... a giant rancor littertray.

'Tis true Only William Shatner could defeat them.... He is a 'Rocket man' after all.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
'Tis true Only William Shatner could defeat them.... He is a 'Rocket man' after all.

NN3MGN899yE

Heheheheheeeeeeee Never gets old, that.

That Stewie Griffin parody was spot on.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Heheheheheeeeeeee Never gets old, that.

That Stewie Griffin parody was spot on.

Yeah, Seth McFarlane did that seamlessly.

I do love Shatner, even though he's an egotistical, self-absorbed ass.

Totally.

Mind you, at least he had the good-sportsmanship to lampoon himself well in "Free Enterprise"..

Emperor Tiberious ...opposite universe of Kirks...wonder what Emperor Palpatine would be like in an opposite universe?.....hmm sounds like a job for the general fiction writers..lol..or have they done that yet?

Originally posted by Robtard
Jedi still get killed, Force or no, which is the point.



Who said anything about seeing visions? There's a difference between force precognition, which is something all Jedi do automatically, and force visions, which is something else entirely.

Force precognition is what grants Obi-Wan the ability to block, literally, over 20 lightsaber strikes per second.

*shrug*

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Who said anything about seeing visions? There's a difference between force precognition, which is something all Jedi do automatically, and force visions, which is something else entirely.

Force precognition is what grants Obi-Wan the ability to block, literally, over 20 lightsaber strikes per second.

*shrug*


force precognition isn't the same as battle precognition....force precognition manifests itself in the form of visions....battle precognition is simply feeling the flow of the force to allow faster reactions and help anticipate what an adversary is going to do

if they could truly see what an opponent could do then a battle between 2 jedi wouldn't end because they would always see what the other was about to do.

... you're getting most of your info from Wookiepedia, aren't you?

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
... you're getting most of your info from Wookiepedia, aren't you?

Whats wrong with that?

Wookiepedia has a knack for being inaccurate, or too technical.

beats supershadow...lol

Originally posted by jaden101
force precognition isn't the same as battle precognition....force precognition manifests itself in the form of visions....battle precognition is simply feeling the flow of the force to allow faster reactions and help anticipate what an adversary is going to do

if they could truly see what an opponent could do then a battle between 2 jedi wouldn't end because they would always see what the other was about to do.

Indeed. Provided the see-er isn't too tired to get there in time to defend or something. (Like Qui-gonn when he seemed to be fatigued and "old manned" off out of it against Maul.)

Or that the focus isn't broken at a crucial moment..
(Which, granted, could have also have been Qui-Gonn's problem after he got nose butted by Maul's Sabre hilt.)

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Wookiepedia has a knack for being inaccurate, or too technical.

too technical?...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA AHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAA OH HEE HEE EH HEE HEE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA.

I love star trek but I love star wars too so I just give credit where its due...but one thing Im wondering about is I thought in another thread it was proven star wars blasters were stronger than star trek phasers???(one of those too technical things..lol) I thought someone mentioned here that star trek shields were better than star wars shields...if star wars blasters are stronger than why is it that without taking out shield generators star wars shields cannot be weakened...and star trek shields can???
I think that all came out right?..lol
if not you all know what Im wondering about...

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
I love star trek but I love star wars too so I just give credit where its due...but one thing Im wondering about is I thought in another thread it was proven star wars blasters were stronger than star trek phasers???(one of those too technical things..lol) I thought someone mentioned here that star trek shields were better than star wars shields...if star wars blasters are stronger than why is it that without taking out shield generators star wars shields cannot be weakened...and star trek shields can???
I think that all came out right?..lol
if not you all know what Im wondering about...

The thing is that Star Wars ships produce a lot more energy than Star Trek ships do. Their shield systems are therefore powered by much, much more energy than ST are, which makes them less likely to buckle. This is actually one of the more convincing arguments for Star wars.

Ship A (Star Wars) has shields designed to protect from blasts that are more powerful than Star Trek and have never been shown to fail.

Ship B (Star Trek) has shields that are designed for the much less powerful Trek weapons and frequently struggle with only a few hits.

EDIT: About Order 66, The Clones were only following orders- the Jedi danger sense didn't pick anything up because the clones' actions/intentions hadn't changed: they were still following orders.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
The thing is that Star Wars ships produce a lot more energy than Star Trek ships do. Their shield systems are therefore powered by much, much more energy than ST are, which makes them less likely to buckle. This is actually one of the more convincing arguments for Star wars.


Maybe I missed this, but where is it stated/proof, "Star Wars ships produce a lot more energy than Star Trek ships"?

ICS has peak power production for the Acclamator class capital ship at 2X10^23 watts. Remember that Imperial Star Destroyers were ~9-10 times more powerful than the Acclamator class.


Actually, the only numbers I have for Star Trek look dangerously non-canon. They are from an old Trek 'build your own ship' game and a site that Darth Truculent posted a while ago. Anybody got solid numbers for trek power output?

Did a google, this is what I found, not sure if it will help you.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Watt

(I don't have time for a full reply. Maybe tomorrow...)

Copy/pasted:



Contradiction?

Red I have to say this, but a Defiant or Akira class warship can easily destroy an SD. They are simply too fast an agile and better armed. A Defiant has rapid fire phaser banks and quantum torpedoes. Those would tear through an SD shields like a farmer at harvest time and cause severe damage in one pass. Don't look at the Enterprise - D. Look at the classes that were built during the Dominion War - Sovereign class, Defiant class, Prometheus class, Akira class etc etc. Those were purely built for combat and all can fight and hold their own against a Borg Cube or Sphere.

The Sovereign class in my opinion is going to be the future of Federation ships. Pre-Dominion War, they were mostly exploration vessels with weapons only for defense. But the Sovereign class is the first hybrid - in First Contact, the Enterprise - E was able to engage the Cube and not take severe damage. The Scimitar couldn't destroy her because her shields were incredibly strong and hull. Take into account her weaponry - 12 phaser banks, over 200 quantum torpedoes and a cloaking device. Not only is she equipped with standard warp drive, but also transwarp which is far superior to both warp and hyperdrive. I can truly state, that a Sovereign class would survive in the SW universe.

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
Emperor Tiberious ...opposite universe of Kirks...wonder what Emperor Palpatine would be like in an opposite universe?.....hmm sounds like a job for the general fiction writers..lol..or have they done that yet?

LOLZ I like that.

Well he'd have a goatee for starters...

Originally posted by Robtard
Did a google, this is what I found, not sure if it will help you.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Watt
"The Gamma Erandi Nebula expended 5.34 x 1041 watt of energy"

I skimmed and thought this was the largest energy figure. Basically, this is about ten million times the Sun's yearly energy emission.

http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Red I have to say this, but a Defiant or Akira class warship can easily destroy an SD.
The numbers would disagree.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

They are simply too fast an agile
SDs deal with fighter swarms. Trek Ships have never shown the agility that a starfighter has. (Their inertial dampeners struggle with only a few g's- look at how the crew is flung around the bridge during combat- while fighters can turn on a dime. The Defiant would never be able to run the Death Star trench- it is larger (an easier target) and less maneuverable (an easier target) than a fighter. They would be easy to hit. SW weaponry would then proceed to remove their shielding (almost instantly) and destroy them. A Defiant would be ruined by a SD. The disparity in firepower (Advantage: SD) is too great to overcome.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

and better armed. A Defiant has rapid fire phaser banks and quantum torpedoes. Those would tear through an SD shields like a farmer at harvest time and cause severe damage in one pass.
The numbers in the Clone wars ICS would disagree again. Nothing that the Trek ships have ever done suggest parity in weapons force.
Originally posted by Darth Truculent

Don't look at the Enterprise - D. Look at the classes that were built during the Dominion War - Sovereign class, Defiant class, Prometheus class, Akira class etc etc. Those were purely built for combat and all can fight and hold their own against a Borg Cube or Sphere.
I don't know about all of them, but the Defiant was getting tossed by a cube when it had a fleet to back it up. (First Contact)

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

The Sovereign class in my opinion is going to be the future of Federation ships. Pre-Dominion War, they were mostly exploration vessels with weapons only for defense. But the Sovereign class is the first hybrid - in First Contact, the Enterprise - E was able to engage the Cube and not take severe damage.
They were able to withstand a few hits. They didn't duke it out with the Cube because it was already damaged. Picard destroyed it with a single volley. We never really saw how a Cube would do against the FC version of the Enterprise. (was that a Sovereign class ship?)

Originally posted by Darth Truculent

The Scimitar couldn't destroy her because her shields were incredibly strong and hull. Take into account her weaponry - 12 phaser banks, over 200 quantum torpedoes and a cloaking device. Not only is she equipped with standard warp drive, but also transwarp which is far superior to both warp and hyperdrive. I can truly state, that a Sovereign class would survive in the SW universe.
The shield generation numbers disagree with you. Put simply, none of the beam weapons of the Federation appear to be able to scratch an Imperial shield. (going solely by the numbers.)

the numbers don't disagree really...a 900MW explosion was enough to slightly damage a runabout.

you said ST shields gave "~6400 MW 'sustainable load." yet Scotty said in one episode that he could get a "few extra gigawatts" out of the shields...we can only presume more modern vessels have vastly higher outputs than you suggest.

there's also the figure that a 4.2GW generator could be used to "power a small phaser bank"...showing that proper phasers have far higher outputs...even handheld phasers give out several MW of energy.

then there's the fact that a galaxy class starship's warp core generates 12.75 billion GW per second

not to mention there's all the other issues of range and weapon types that have been brought up that SW ships couldn't even begin to cope with

The Defiant wouldn't need to run the trench Red. Borg weaponry is still far superior to anything that the Alpha quadrant has, but the Defiant's armor held after her shields were down. A Defiant class shields could easiy hold against SW point-blank defense systems. Those are designed for starfighters, not ships like the Defiant. Plus ST targeting systems are far more accurate than SW.

Now Red, to my knowledge ST torpedoes are far more and I mean far more powerful than anything SW has. A Proton torpedo couldn't mach the magnitude of a Quantum torpedo. Although, not strong enough to destroy a DS, a couple of well placed Quantum torpedoes would easily destroy a SD.

The Scimitar did batter down the Enterprise - E shields, but her hull integrity was still strong. As I stated, a Sovereign class ship is a hybrid and the Enterprise - E is a Sovereign class ship. Even after ramming the Scimitar, the Enterpise was still capable of sublight travel. Which ship was destroyed? The Scimitar because her weapons were knocked out and a little help from Data. I have yet to see C-3PO destroy a ship.

The Enterprise - E can handle more than a few turbolaser strikes. The shields are just too strong. And the Defiant would get so close to a SD hull, that the main battery wouldn't be able to bear. Rebutal?

Originally posted by jaden101
well for a start the dominion don't really use disruptors or torpedos...their weapons are predominantly polaron beam weapons (which the borg use as scanning beams)

the dominion also have the most advanced transporters in that they can transport troops as far as 3 light years

one thing i was thinking about in the st v sw debate...the borg use the line "we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own"...what if they were to assimilate a jedi...would they all, through the hive collective, have force powers?

was just reading through dont think this has been mentioned...the borg have assimilated telepaths and other beings with force similiar abilities Im sure so even if they could I doubt they would utilize those abilites...Im sure they would be more likely to adapt their scans to pick up midichlorians if they thought jedi and their abilities were a big threat to them...the amount of training etc to use the force...wouldnt be on the borg agenda...IMO..till later...hehe

Jack you do have a point there about the Jedi, but the Borg may over look it as a mutation in the genetic sequence. The YV had never encountered Jedi before until their invasion and they killed many of them. But no, I do not believe an assimiliation of a Jedi would matter much. He or she would be just another drone. An admiral like Thrawn would be a much more valuable target. A master tactician like Thrawn would be invaluable. Hope that helps.

Originally posted by Mindship
"The Gamma Erandi Nebula expended 5.34 x 1041 watt of energy"

I skimmed and thought this was the largest energy figure. Basically, this is about ten million times the Sun's yearly energy emission.

http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html

10 million times, that all? Pft.

Okay Ive just been googling....plus Ive seen about every episode and read most ST novels
I know this has been mentioned not sure if they are allowed but the transphasic torpedoes are canon but how they werk r EU....they phase in and out therefore as I understand doesnt matter how powerful the shield they phase out until they reach the center of the target totally not even dealing with shields...1 can destroy a regular cube?? or was it a tactical...have to watch endgame again to know for sure but I think it was a regular cube... but the size of a cube compared to a SD is ??? (I dont know) The ablative armor that ST uses (canon mixed with EU here) are self replicating....next the borg should be able to adapt to blasters as is there any proof they can change frequency on turbo lasers blasters etc....Also do we consider the star trek novels canon since Paramount approves the novels?
If so we ST is ruling.............
Commander Shelby estimated that a cube could remain operative even if like 70% was destroyed. tough muthers....I also wondered if the doomsday machine is big enuff to swallow a death star? its hull is invulnerable....right? wasnt it mentioned there may be more of them?? of course the dreadnought can destroy a small moon...bout the size of a deathstar..lol...now that Ive done all this ST I need some defense for star wars or Queeq may never forgive me...lol...and also as usual Ive been drinkin so dont rip me to shreads to bad Im just tryin here..lol

Let me put it this way... Star Wars Weaponry would rape ant trek shields, and unlike phasers, the hull they hit would buckle melt and be easily penetrated.... however tranporters are the key. Trek Borg could attempt assiml of a SD but honestly, SW weaponry are Bolts of energy that have no specifice freq, but they do have power settings.

Reaper! glad to c ya! anyways I can go with that about the hull but the self replicating armor??? thats gotta help..borg would adapt but fed ships only hope Im thinking is the armor...it sends damaging energy away from the hull....other than a few mentions thats all eu though...still curious about the doomsday could it handle a deathstar blast b4 it is consumed it or would a death star fit...lol...the fit looks perfect actually???I was thinking on some SW defense....some of the old sith were uber powerful like Luke....Im thinking palps could muster something totally wicked with proper prep to totally screw up the borg...scenario one let himself get assimilated while in total connection with the force(canon wise he isnt all that but eu wise for something like this the spirits of the old sith which he can consult with would offer him the right help to seperate his mind something of the sort till the right moment..I know Im not explaining this to well but Ive read alot of eu so any else that knows what Im talking about gets my meaning....then take out the "queen's"...take over the borg thus he controls both universes...damn Im diggin for SW here...does anyone see where Im goin...I need another drink and some more eu for SW

Originally posted by Jack Daniels
Okay Ive just been googling....plus Ive seen about every episode and read most ST novels
I know this has been mentioned not sure if they are allowed but the transphasic torpedoes are canon but how they werk r EU....they phase in and out therefore as I understand doesnt matter how powerful the shield they phase out until they reach the center of the target totally not even dealing with shields...1 can destroy a regular cube?? or was it a tactical...have to watch endgame again to know for sure but I think it was a regular cube... but the size of a cube compared to a SD is ??? (I dont know)

a cube is around 3036m x 3036m x 3036m

each dimension is almost twice as big as a imperial class SD is from front to back. (1600)

although the super star destroyer is 19000m in length.




2 words...ablative armour...designed to disipate direct energy weapons which is all the SD's have...so their power is irrelevant.

Jedireaper, SD don't not have guided turbolasers. ST ships have the ability to target specific areas on a ship. Here's a little question for you: why did the captain of the SD raise his shields when the tiny Millenieum Falcon made it's "attack" run? The freighter is drawfed by the SD and cannot match it's firepower.

Borg shields adapt to the frequency of the weapon that is firing on them. Every energy weapon has an frequency and it would only be a matter of minutes before the Cube's shields would adapt to that particular frequency.

Forgot - how many times do I have to say that a photon or a quantum torpedo would easily pierce any SD shields.

Can someone look up the stats for those torpedoes for me?

Originally posted by jaden101
a cube is around 3036m x 3036m x 3036m

each dimension is almost twice as big as a imperial class SD is from front to back. (1600)

although the super star destroyer is 19000m in length.




2 words...ablative armour...designed to disipate direct energy weapons which is all the SD's have...so their power is irrelevant.
thanx dude! and that in this thread is accepted ??? OH NO that means ST does win..lol...bet that pissed someone off...hope Queeq doesnt see this post....

One thing that I think is being overlooked is the science teams. Star Trek is much better at the jury-rigging and adapting process. They can come up with solutions and reverse engineer technologies. Granted, it may take time, as it did with finding a way to adapt engines and systems to Breen energy weapons.

2nd, sensors. Star Trek has vastly superior sensor systems. And if you can scan a ship or weapon, you can find a weakspot, or vulnerable areas. You might even be able to get shield frequencies and armor compositions. Example: The Death Star. it might take abit, considering the size, but I will lay you good odds that the Enterprise-E at least, could figure out the trick about the Exhaust Port.

3rd, temporal assaults. Star Trek groups (Or at least the Alpha Quadrant) goes out of it's way to avoid screwing with timelines or disrupting time. But that doesn't mean they don't have methods for exploiting it. Hell, even the Bajoran orbs could give insight into going into the past and finding Byss for example.

The last thing is a suicide tactic, but though I think the Federation would abstain from it, I can easily see some of the other groups (like the Borg or the Cardassians as an act of spite) choosing to unleash an Omega Particle if they were certain to lose. Making any victory by Star Wars pyyric.

yeah ST is winning...we need help! I could bring in some hardcore SW fans but I forget who they r..lol

Originally posted by Jedireaper
Let me put it this way... Star Wars Weaponry would rape ant trek shields, and unlike phasers, the hull they hit would buckle melt and be easily penetrated.... however tranporters are the key. Trek Borg could attempt assiml of a SD but honestly, SW weaponry are Bolts of energy that have no specifice freq, but they do have power settings.

Why would they "rape Trek shields"? SW lasers are still based on energy, what shields are designed to resist.

Why would the ST hulls just "buckle"? They're also designed to resist energy weapons.

Borg do assimilate; they're masters of this. The only time they couldn't was a species from a different dimension; who's technology was based on biological matter. I don't think the SW ships are anything close to this, one Borg cube could teleport a hundred thousand drones into the Death Star and assimilate that *****.

Power settings are essentially frequencies and vice-versa.

I wonder if Star Trek shields could affect force use...?

'Cause lets say Yoda wanted to crush or disable something essential to shield generation/projection, yet that target lay on the other side of said shield..

Could he do it...?

And furthermore, what would stop Vader ripping hull plating off (maybe over the bridge area), compromising the hull of that ship...?

Or messing with something in engineering that could cause warp core breach/loss of containment....?

Well placed Jedi/Sith attacks like these could be pretty effective.

The point about Yoda is irrelevant given the stipulations of the original post

As for Vader and the Emperor. Had they the power to change a space battle single handedly then i'm sure they would've done so at the battle of Endor. The fact that they didn't suggest they either couldn't or, as some suggest, were distracted by what Luke was up to.

Not to mention that they simply cannot be at all places at all times meaning they most likely wouldn't be at all the battles...similar to the fact that the Jedi council masters couldn't be at all the battles during the clone wars and were constantly having to shuffle around and try and support one another.

Okay forget individual jedi/sith names.
This is obviously about the force/ST shields.

I'd probably have to agree that they were focused on Luke, but then, true that'd beg the question of "Why didn't we see other Jedi do it"

But the 'science' behind it... yay or nay...?

I'd say nay...Obi-wan had to physically switch off a tractor beam for the millenium falcon to escape and in the clone wars cartoons anakin and ashoka tano had to get inside a shield generators defence in order to have an effect on it and the enemies within it. So on that basis i'd say something about shields prevents them for using the force beyond it.

you also have the evidence on several occasions that jedi cant even manipulate beyond small relatively weak shields such as those on the rolling battles droids that attack qui-gon and obi-wan in phantom menace.

the force unleashed also shows that some stormtroopers with shielding are unaffected by the force (including high powered lightning and push) and have to be physically struck with a lightsaber before they are damaged

Sounds convincing to me.

(Heheh Force Unleashed. Got that at Xmas on the PSP.
I was gonna mention that, but as much as I like it, I cant regard it as anything other than EU.

Technical issues aside (inopportune load times and other minor bugs along with the finishing move button-a-thon coming in on your lightsabre button so you not realising its started, screw up losing the advantage again temporarily. ), I thought it was a great game.
The extra modes like Order 66 help the longevity passed the novelty of restarting the game with full force ability after completion...

What platform do you have it on..?)

I borrowed it for the 360...played through it 3 times in order to try and unlock everything.

I believe it's regarded as canon though...although i personally don't like the story of it. I'd rather have had a game whereby you did the great jedi purge as Vader.

Lucky blighter. The graphics look amazing on that from what Ive seen... (not that they were poop on the PSP, but on a big screen you'd notice the lower polygon count etc).

Canon..? Wow. Cool that the rebellion formation stuff wasnt wasted then...and the polt with Vader and Starkiller did make me wonder further about the abiguity of Vader's offer to Luke at the end of ESB.

Yeah that 1st Kashykk level alone wasnt enough as Vader...

And as nice as it was, fighting Luke at Bespin was just a tease in the extras..

Heres hoping for future titles..eh? or a Sequel that'll let you do just that.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I wonder if Star Trek shields could affect force use...?



Not sure if Jaden already mentioned this, but the rolling droids with the personal shileds (droideka), the Jedi never use the Force against them; leads me to believe shields do counter Force use.

They don't. Jedi don't use the force on those droids for the same reason Obi-Wan didn't use the force on Jango Fett.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
They don't. Jedi don't use the force on those droids for the same reason Obi-Wan didn't use the force on Jango Fett.

stupidity?

also, just want to thank y'all for not making this thread a nightmare to mod. i've seen some of the stuff that goes on in star wars vs matches, so i was pleasantly surprised. thanks again...

Yeah i was pleasantly surprised by the civil tone of this thread given that it usually brings out the worst in people. We've had a few starwars fanboys come into the thread but they are generally ignored because they talk nonsense and their points are easily countered. I know Red Nemesis was reluctant to make the thread but i'm glad he did. It's been fun so far.

It has.

I think it helps that we here mostly are fans of both genius sagas.

Originally posted by Raoul
stupidity?

Right on.

Realistically speaking, if a man can push someone with enough force to launch them 50 feet in the air, he should be able to snap a neck or something without difficulty. But alas, Jedi are idiots. Force users in general are idiots. Jango defeating five Jedi Knights in close quarters combat at the same time by himself is lunacy.

But, yeah. They're idiots.



I think most Star Wars fans don't know enough about Star Trek to care, or bother, I certainly don't. I poke around and correct arguments that are wrong about the Star Wars universe, but that's as far as I'm willing to go, personally.

I can never fully trust anyone who hates Star Trek.

Its just .......wrong.

But likewise I cant really identify with Star Wars haters too well either.

Star Trek TNG is great, imo. Shatner's ST I dislike.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Shatner's ST I dislike.

You have made a powerful enemy today, 'friend'.

shatner is an icon bigger and better than hamill or ford imo....though princess leia(in her day) I would have to dis on capn kirk for..hehe...although Hamill really has done alot besides movies...hes kewl wing commander the joker voice...I want to see him in that comedy with jay n silent bob I heard that was kewl but I havent seen it anyways Im sure the list goes on...he is the jedifuture dude..lol..but you cant dis on shatner...he wrote some excellent ST books besides everything else hes done...anyways Im rambling AGAIN...back to my drink..actually its nap time see ya in a few!

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Star Trek TNG is great, imo. Shatner's ST I dislike.

For the first time I am speechless.
































































KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.........................!!!!!!

I'm not a huge fan of the original star trek either tbh. I like the films but not the series as much. As cheesy and fun as it can be it is also grimace inducingly cheap and nasty looking.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Star Trek TNG is great, imo. Shatner's ST I dislike.




GET HIM!!!!!!!!! RAWRRRRR