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Jax vs Balrog
Sonya Blade vs Chung Li
Lui Kang vs Ryu
Johnny Cage vs Ken
Baraka vs Blanka
Kano vs Guile
Shao Kahn vs Akuma
Shang Tsung vs Bison
Goro vs Sagat
Kitana vs Cammy
Motoro vs Zangief
Sheeva vs E. Honda
Queen Sindel vs Dhalsim
Kung Lao vs Fei Long
Nightwolf vs Deejay

Which side takes this?

Street Fighter

Jax vs Balrog = jax
Sonya Blade vs Chung Li = chun li
Lui Kang vs Ryu = ryu
Johnny Cage vs Ken = ken
Baraka vs Blanka = baraka
Kano vs Guile = guile
Shao Kahn vs Akuma = akuma
Shang Tsung vs Bison = shang
Goro vs Sagat = hmmm tie?
Kitana vs Cammy = cammy
Motoro vs Zangief = motoro
Sheeva vs E. Honda = sheeva
Queen Sindel vs Dhalsim = dhalsim
Kung Lao vs Fei Long = tie
Nightwolf vs Deejay = nightwolf

moving to vg vs...

Jax vs Balrog = Jax
Sonya Blade vs Chung Li = Chun Li
Lui Kang vs Ryu = Ryu
Johnny Cage vs Ken = Ken
Baraka vs Blanka = Baraka
Kano vs Guile = Guile
Shao Kahn vs Akuma = Shao Kahn
Shang Tsung vs Bison = Shang Tsung
Goro vs Sagat = Goro
Kitana vs Cammy = Kitana
Motoro vs Zangief = Motoro
Sheeva vs E. Honda = E. Honda
Queen Sindel vs Dhalsim = Dhalsim
Kung Lao vs Fei Long = Kung Lao
Nightwolf vs Deejay = Nightwolf

MK: 9, SF: 6...

Just my opinion though *runs*

Your opinion is wrong.

1.Balrog
2. Chun Li
3. Ryu
4. Ken
5. Baraka
6. Guile
7. Akuma
8. M. Bison
9. Hm. Hard to say, Sagat is featless despite his high status.
10. Kitana
11. Zangief
12. Has E. Honda ever done anything, like, ever?
13. Same with Dhalsim.
14. Kung Lao
15. Nightwolf.

Shao Kahn beating Gouki? haermm

And I think Blanka could beat Baraka. Those steel blades make great lightning rods...

Those blades are bone are they not?

Maybe I'm thinking of Wolverine. haermm

I dounno what they're made of. His character was apparently inspired by Logan, though.

Well they're white and come out of his arms...

I think you're right.

Of course I am. I'm God for a reason.

I see it like this:

Jax vs. Balrog=Jax
Sonya Blade vs. Chun Li=Chun Li
Liu Kang vs. Ryu=Liu Kang
Johnny Cage vs. Ken=Ken
Kano vs. Guile=Guile
Baraka vs. Blanka=Draw
Shao Kahn vs. Akuma=Shao Kahn
Shang Tsung vs. Bison=Bison
Goro vs. Sagat=Goro
Kitana vs. Cammy=Kitana
Motaro vs. Zangief=?
Sheeva vs. E. Honda=Sheeva
Sindel vs. Dhalsim=Sindel
Kung Lao vs. Fei Long=Kung Lao

You see it wrong.

Only in your eyes.

No. You see it wrong.

Shao Kahn vs. Bison

Round 1
Shao Kahn wins

Round 2
FINISH HIM!
Shao Kahn wins
FATALITY

*sighs*

And how will one of the slowest characters in MK do that when Bison can Psycho Crush ftw?

And Shao Kahn was fighting Gouki.

Who can one shot him.

I thought it said Shao Kahn vs. Bison because all the matches are too close too eachother and it got me a little mixed up. I only say that Kahn owns Bison because Bison is one of my least favorite characters in SF.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
No. You see it wrong.

No YOU see it wrong.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
And how will one of the slowest characters in MK do that when Bison can Psycho Crush ftw?

And Shao Kahn was fighting Gouki.

Who can one shot him.

Shao Kahn would kill Gouki too.

And how are you gonna say Shao Kahn is slow?

haermm

What's SHao Kahn's best speed feat?

Both games overall cast is aw'ight. The Bosses of the games are the real heavy hittaz.

I may give the slight edge to the MK guys.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
haermm

What's SHao Kahn's best speed feat?

What's Bison's?

Answer my question.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Answer my question.

Really? Look at that speed around 1:20

u0AyQhXlchE

Uh...

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Uh...

Only Shao Khan could lose that fast. He may even lose faster in this fight.

haermm

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Answer my question.

Answer mines.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Answer mines.

Oh come on dude now thats just being childish. He did ask first and this really isn't helping your arguments.

It's okay, it's SmashBro. The truth is that he doesn't have any speed feats for Shao Kahn. So he wants me to post some of Bison's, and then he'll spend all day and all night trying to discredit them, and the fact that SHao Kahn has no speed feats will be forgotten. But it doesn't matter; I'm not going to put up with such naive tactics. I asked first, and I won't post in here until he mans up and either answers my question or admits that he can't.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Oh come on dude now thats just being childish. He did ask first and this really isn't helping your arguments.

It doesn't matter who asked first, that's not an excuse for him to not answer either. If you look at the situation he's in, then you'd see his arguement is no better than mine, thus there's no way it's helping his argument either. That's why he's trying to divert attention away from his own argument so he can attack mines. THAT'S childish so you might as well get on him too.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
It's okay, it's SmashBro. The truth is that he doesn't have any speed feats for Shao Kahn. So he wants me to post some of Bison's, and then he'll spend all day and all night trying to discredit them, and the fact that SHao Kahn has no speed feats will be forgotten. But it doesn't matter; I'm not going to put up with such naive tactics. I asked first, and I won't post in here until he mans up and either answers my question or admits that he can't.

The only time I've seen him do anything fast was when he was running in-game, that isn't saying much though seeing as everyone ran fast in that game at the same speed. So he is fast in game but I haven't seen anything that makes him fast OOG.

Jax vs Balrog Jax 7/10
Sonya Blade vs Chung Li Chun-Li 7/10
Lui Kang vs Ryu Ryu 8/10
Johnny Cage vs Ken Ken maybe 9/10
Baraka vs Blanka Split
Kano vs Guile Guile 7/10 or more
Shao Kahn vs Akuma Akuma 9/10 based on ACTUAL showings
Shang Tsung vs Bison Bison 8/10
Goro vs Sagat Sagat 8/10 Goro has been weakend
Kitana vs Cammy Cammy 8/10 Shes way too good
Motoro vs Zangief Motoro 6/10 Zangief's moves just wouldnt work
Sheeva vs E. Honda Sheeva 7/10
Queen Sindel vs Dhalsim Close fight, neither are impressive
Kung Lao vs Fei Long In a straight fight, Im gonna go Fei Long 6/10
Nightwolf vs Deejay Also close, no opinion

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
It's okay, it's SmashBro. The truth is that he doesn't have any speed feats for Shao Kahn. So he wants me to post some of Bison's, and then he'll spend all day and all night trying to discredit them, and the fact that SHao Kahn has no speed feats will be forgotten. But it doesn't matter; I'm not going to put up with such naive tactics. I asked first, and I won't post in here until he mans up and either answers my question or admits that he can't.

Anybody noticed something here? Now he's admitting that he has some speed feats for Bison but is making up a bogus excuse not to post them. He's not posting them simply because of how I might respond, which is absurd. If he really did have them, he would have went on and post them but instead he's using me as an excuse not to post them. Basically his argument is "I can answer it but I don't want to"...which is unfit for someone if they really did.

Bison's Psycho Crusher alone makes him faster, but he was also able to outrun Charlie, who was flying a friggin jet to his base.

That a good enough speed feat?

It is better than any speed feat of Kahn's.

Everyone in MK except a select few are human speed or slower.

Kahn falls into the latter.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Bison's Psycho Crusher alone makes him faster, but he was also able to outrun Charlie, who was flying a friggin jet to his base.

That a good enough speed feat?

It is better than any speed feat of Kahn's.

Everyone in MK except a select few are human speed or slower.

Kahn falls into the latter.

Well if you think about, Kahn's dash attack is fast. But still how does this show that he is slow?

And where was it stated that Bison outran Charlie's jet?

Originally posted by SmashBro
Well if you think about, Kahn's dash attack is fast. But still how does this show that he is slow?

And where was it stated that Bison outran Charlie's jet?

Do you mean that shoulder tackle that only goes about 5 feet?

Yeah that one and the one that goes in the air.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Yeah that one and the one that goes in the air.

How is that a speed feat when he only goes like 5 feet?

I'm referring to how fast he moves, not how far.

not really much of a speed feat when you only move like 3-5 feet in-game.

But I was just pointing out how fast it's executed. Afterall, it's a fight, not a race.

Originally posted by SmashBro
Well if you think about, Kahn's dash attack is fast. But still how does this show that he is slow?

And where was it stated that Bison outran Charlie's jet? The shoulder tackle of doom? He moves a few feet after building momentum with a hop. Wow. No. The cutscenes show he is slow. Watch the most recent canon cut-scene with him in it, specifically the MK Armageddon intro, he was clearly very slow.

...Wtf, it was shown.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
The shoulder tackle of doom? He moves a few feet after building momentum with a hop. Wow. No. The cutscenes show he is slow. Watch the most recent canon cut-scene with him in it, specifically the MK Armageddon intro, he was clearly very slow.

...Wtf, it was shown.

He wasn't even fighting much in the cutscenes. All he did was swing his hammer at everybody so that didn't really prove a thing.

And you're still ignoring how fast the actual move is.

Originally posted by SmashBro
He wasn't even fighting much in the cutscenes. All he did was swing his hammer at everybody so that didn't really prove a thing.

And you're still ignoring how fast the actual move is.

1. It's an in-game feat
2. I'm so sure that moving 3 feet in like 2 seconds is pretty impressive if you're We Todd Ed.

Be careful Wei. Saying retard is offensive!

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Be careful Wei. Saying retard is offensive!

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
1. It's an in-game feat
2. I'm so sure that moving 3 feet in like 2 seconds is pretty impressive if you're We Todd Ed.

Que? lol

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
1. It's an in-game feat
2. I'm so sure that moving 3 feet in like 2 seconds is pretty impressive if you're a retard.

1. Didn't stop Jaxx from bringing up the Psycho Crusher.

2. What do you mean? It nearly went all the way across the screen in MK2 and 3.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
Be careful Wei. Saying retard is offensive!

I sure don't think he use that word on autistic people though.

... Bison has canonically used the psychocrusher dude.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. Didn't stop Jaxx from bringing up the Psycho Crusher.

2. What do you mean? It nearly went all the way across the screen in MK2 and 3.

1. Bison Psycho Crushes mofos out of the game many times
2. I remember it being like 5 feet in Armaggeddon.

Difference is I also brought up an actual storyline feat.

The cutscene showed him swinging his hammer...Slowly.

As for t3h move, no not that impressive.

Prove Kahn is fast.

And that is ignoring the fact that Kahn is fighting Gouki, who is much faster and can kill Kahn in one move.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
1. Bison Psycho Crushes mofos out of the game many times
2. I remember it being like 5 feet in Armaggeddon.

1. So would Kahn's attack.

2. It was nerfed in that game.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
... Bison has canonically used the psychocrusher dude.

And? Why is that such a big deal?

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Difference is I also brought up an actual storyline feat.

The cutscene showed him swinging his hammer...Slowly.

As for t3h move, no not that impressive.

Prove Kahn is fast.

And that is ignoring the fact that Kahn is fighting Gouki, who is much faster and can kill Kahn in one move.

1. You're using his abilities as long as it was in a storyline?

2. He was spinning around with it too,

3. And that's ignoring the fact that Shao Kahn could just easily take his soul.

*sighs*

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. So would Kahn's attack.

2. It was nerfed in that game.



And? Why is that such a big deal?



1. You're using his abilities as long as it was in a storyline?

2. He was spinning around with it too,

3. And that's ignoring the fact that Shao Kahn could just easily take his soul.

1. That attack was never used out of game
2. That is the most recent showing of that move so he must've slowed down after returning from the dead. I mean he wasn't fast enough to fend off Tsung and Chi
3. Bison has a soul? I thought that he just moved his consciouness into new bodies.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. You're using his abilities as long as it was in a storyline?


That's... generally how things work on this site, Smash. Moves that are performed in the storyline are canon. Moves that aren't are generally ignored. They're called game mechanics.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
1. That attack was never used out of game
2. That is the most recent showing of that move so he must've slowed down after returning from the dead. I mean he wasn't fast enough to fend off Tsung and Chi
3. Bison has a soul? I thought that he just moved his consciouness into new bodies.

1. Why should that matter?

2. Tsung and Chi didn't even attack him. Shang Tsung was the only one who managed to hit him before he was taken by Onaga.

3. I was really talking about Gouki. But I think there's a certain thing that's gotta happen before Bison could take someones body.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. You're using his abilities as long as it was in a storyline?

2. He was spinning around with it too,

3. And that's ignoring the fact that Shao Kahn could just easily take his soul. 1. A. Yes, since we would know what they look like outside of gameplay.

B. I brought up a feat that happened in a cut-scene.

2. ...So? In the scene, he swung his hammer slowly, ran slowly, and was picked off without being able to defend himself by the slow Onaga. Seriously, PROVE KAHN IS FAST.

3. Like he constantly does in the games right? Not to mention Gouki does similar.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. Why should that matter?

2. Tsung and Chi didn't even attack him. Shang Tsung was the only one who managed to hit him before he was taken by Onaga.

3. I was really talking about Gouki. But I think there's a certain thing that's gotta happen before Bison could take someones body. 1. Because gameplay is not a reliable indication of things, especially in fighting games.

2. He was talking about when they beat his ass in Deadly Alliance I assume.

3. His mortal shell has to die.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. Because gameplay is not a reliable indication of things, especially in fighting games.

2. He was talking about when they beat his ass in Deadly Alliance I assume.

3. His mortal shell has to die.

Yeah I was talking about in DA.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
That's... generally how things work on this site, Smash. Moves that are performed in the storyline are canon. Moves that aren't are generally ignored. They're called game mechanics.

But that's ignoring their basic abilities. Cutscenes don't usually involve too much action so using ONLY those is kind of...nonsense in my opinion.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. A. Yes, since we would know what they look like outside of gameplay.

B. I brought up a feat that happened in a cut-scene.

2. ...So? In the scene, he swung his hammer slowly, ran slowly, and was picked off without being able to defend himself by the slow Onaga. Seriously, PROVE KAHN IS FAST.

3. Like he constantly does in the games right? Not to mention Gouki does similar.

1. A. But you still can't ignore the fact the character has those abiliities.

B. But you didn't explain how it was fast.

2. He didn't swing the hammer slowly. The guy was twisting around with and manage to knock away the people who got next to him. They couldn't even get near him. Only later it was Shang who managed to attack.

3. Similar but not the same. And the reason he doesn't do it in game is because the other characters' souls are protected by Raiden.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. Because gameplay is not a reliable indication of things, especially in fighting games.

2. He was talking about when they beat his ass in Deadly Alliance I assume.

3. His mortal shell has to die.

1. I don't know about you but that really doesn't make any sense to me.

2. That was a clone.

3. It died like twice already, didn't it?

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. A. But you still can't ignore the fact the character has those abiliities.

B. But you didn't explain how it was fast.

2. He didn't swing the hammer slowly. The guy was twisting around with and manage to knock away the people who got next to him. They couldn't even get near him. Only later it was Shang who managed to attack.

3. Similar but not the same. And the reason he doesn't do it in game is because the other characters' souls are protected by Raiden. 1. A. No. But we can't use them as definate indications of speed or strength either.

B. ...Dude wtf, he out-ran a fvcking Military Jet, how did I not explain it was fast?

2. He turned around and swung his hammer. And almost everyone in MK is slow, hell, Shang Tsung is only human in terms of speed, and he was able to attack Kahn.

How's about you shut up, quit stalling, and show some proof of Khan's speed?

3. Only a few people are protected by Raiden, not to mention he won't be able to use his soul power before Gouki punches him so hard in the chest that his torso will fly off his arms, legs, and head.

Originally posted by SmashBro
1. I don't know about you but that really doesn't make any sense to me.

2. That was a clone.

3. It died like twice already, didn't it? 1. Gameplay mechanics are used to balance things in-game. In-game, Batman strikes faster than Darkseid, yet we know Darkseid is faster.

2. True. But that was what he was talking about is all I was saying.

3. And came back both times, even after Gouki used the Shun Goku no Satsu on him.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. A. No. But we can't use them as definate indications of speed or strength either.

B. ...Dude wtf, he out-ran a fvcking Military Jet, how did I not explain it was fast?

2. He turned around and swung his hammer. And almost everyone in MK is slow, hell, Shang Tsung is only human in terms of speed, and he was able to attack Kahn.

How's about you shut up, quit stalling, and show some proof of Khan's speed?

3. Only a few people are protected by Raiden, not to mention he won't be able to use his soul power before Gouki punches him so hard in the chest that his torso will fly off his arms, legs, and head.

1. A. I know that.

B. I asked you to prove that he outran it.

2. With just a kick, that is. Besides, that's Shang Tsung, which isn't the issue here.

Also, remember, this whole thing started because you said Kahn was slow. I think it's best YOU quit stalling.

3. Really? I must have missed that Gouki was The Flash. And so what if Raiden protected a "few people"? The many people who didn't get protected still got their soul taken.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
1. Gameplay mechanics are used to balance things in-game. In-game, Batman strikes faster than Darkseid, yet we know Darkseid is faster.

2. True. But that was what he was talking about is all I was saying.

3. And came back both times, even after Gouki used the Shun Goku no Satsu on him.

1. That's different though. In game, Batman also uses the gadgets he alos uses in other media. As far as speed and strength, that can't be determine by gameplay mechanics but whether the character actually have the ability can (unless proved otherwise).

2. Okay.

3. Gouki only used it on Bison once though. And it's yet to be explained how he got back this time.

BLANKA smashes everyone! Just take a look at the pic Lmao!!!!

Originally posted by NemeBro

And that is ignoring the fact that Kahn is fighting Gouki, who is much faster and can kill Kahn in one move.

Mortal Kombat 9 shows Kahn ripping apart Raiden, one of the gods.

I don't know.. Storyline wise, Mortal Kombat seems to operate under a different set of rules. Elder gods fighting with gods, gods fighting with humans, sorcerers with powers on par with omnipotent beings, beings that can affect dimensions losing to Johnny Cages Shadow Kick..

Street Fighter, going by storyline, comes across more as a bunch of metas duking it out.

Look at Shinnok. He attacked the Elder Gods directly, and affected dimensional barriers.. The Saurian civilization nearly died out because of the war against him, and they had to move to another world. There's no one like that in the Street Fighter-verse. or no comparable high stakes storyline..

I would think MK characters due to the killing intent and powersets. I mean they do have guys like Shao Kahn and Raiden. Isn't M. Bison like the only uber powerful guy in the SF universe. I was under the impression that even Ryu couldn't handle him alone.

I would think that SF vs. Tekken fighters would be a better matchup.

Originally posted by socool8520
I would think MK characters due to the killing intent and powersets. I mean they do have guys like Shao Kahn and Raiden. Isn't M. Bison like the only uber powerful guy in the SF universe. I was under the impression that even Ryu couldn't handle him alone.

Bison is hardly the only one...

There's guys like Gill, Seth, Gouki and all his incarnations, Gouken, Gen, Evil Ryu, ect, ect...

I think their universes are even for the most part. When you start moving up the tiers from Ryu and up, that's when SF will pull out the win.

I mean, even Chun Li can create canyons with her Kiko Sho. Sagat shoots out mountain sized blasts of chi. Ryu blows up a giant BLEECE machine, which in turn blows up most of S.I.N's base. Seth creates mini gravity wells. Sakura and Ryu's normal HDKs can push back giant explosions. Gief tanks tornadoes. This is pretty great material coming from characters who wouldn't even rank in the top 10 most powerful in their world.

Originally posted by cdtm
Mortal Kombat 9 shows Kahn ripping apart Raiden, one of the gods.

I don't know.. Storyline wise, Mortal Kombat seems to operate under a different set of rules. Elder gods fighting with gods, gods fighting with humans, sorcerers with powers on par with omnipotent beings, beings that can affect dimensions losing to Johnny Cages Shadow Kick..

Street Fighter, going by storyline, comes across more as a bunch of metas duking it out.

Look at Shinnok. He attacked the Elder Gods directly, and affected dimensional barriers.. The Saurian civilization nearly died out because of the war against him, and they had to move to another world. There's no one like that in the Street Fighter-verse. or no comparable high stakes storyline.. MK has the titles and the violence, but it doesn't mean they mower powerful. People think blood and guts means more powerful. SF characters have been shown to do more powerful things more frequently. Don't know why people don't like that fact.


Gods are just titles and Gods lose to mortals all of the time in fiction. Like in Mortal Kombat.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
MK has the titles and the violence, but it doesn't mean they mower powerful.

The thing is, the Elder Gods have the feats too.

According to Mortal Kombat mythology, the Elder Gods took on the One Being that comprised all of reality, and created Kamidogu that they used to shatter its body, than used its remains to create the realms.

This same One Being acted through Onaga and Shao Kahn.

And those same Elder Gods used Scorpian as their champion, to destroy Onaga,

The entire plot of Mortal Kombat: Armageddon is based on the concept of the Mortal Kombat warriors becoming so powerful, they'd threaten all the realms, too..

Basically, Mortal Kombat works on high stakes storylines.. Either an entire realm gets laid waste, or all the realms get threatened, or the Elder Gods that defeated the One Being get threatened..

Originally posted by cdtm
And those same Elder Gods used Scorpian as their champion, to destroy Onaga
While that's probably what would've happened if Scorpion had the chance to do so, it proved to be non-canon, as Shujinko beat him to the punch and shattered the Kamidogu to defeat the dragon king according to Onaga's Armageddon bio.

Top 10 SFs, right now, accordin to the story.

1. Shitgrid

(In no known order)

2. Akuma
3. Gouken
4. Oro
5. Gill
6. Bison

(Back in order)

7. Rose
8. Dhalsim
9. Gen
10. Ryu/Juri/Urien/Seth/Sagat

Includin alternate versions of the same characters...

1. Shitgrid

(In no known order)

2. Oni
3. Shin Akuma (obviously weaker than Oni)
4. Akuma (obviously weaker than Shin)
5. Shin Bison
6. Shin Evil Ryu
7. Gouken
8. Oro
9. Gill

(Back in order)

10. Bison IV

Rose > Ryu?

Yeah. She's much stronger than Ryu, it's not even close. She's even stronger than Alpha Bison. She killed'im...on her own.

Rose > Alpha Bison >>> Bison II >>>>>>>>>> Ryu.

Damn, wish he had included Onaga as the One Being in this. vin

Originally posted by No End N Site
Yeah. She's much stronger than Ryu, it's not even close. She's even stronger than Alpha Bison. She killed'im...on her own.

Rose > Alpha Bison >>> Bison II >>>>>>>>>> Ryu.

Actually, I don't remember her ever actually killing him... I remember him inpaling her thru the guts and then dissapearing/detonating, but not her outright punking him.

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
*sighs*

Originally posted by No End N Site
Yeah. She's much stronger than Ryu, it's not even close. She's even stronger than Alpha Bison. She killed'im...on her own.

Rose > Alpha Bison >>> Bison II >>>>>>>>>> Ryu.

In which Alpha did she kill him, and did he have the psycho engine thing? All I remembered from their encounters was Bison ****ing her up.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Actually, I don't remember her ever actually killing him... I remember him inpaling her thru the guts and then dissapearing/detonating, but not her outright punking him.

She kills him in SFA2. He's revived later. She then loses to a weakened Shin Bison in SFA3

Originally posted by Zack Fair
In which Alpha did she kill him, and did he have the psycho engine thing? All I remembered from their encounters was Bison ****ing her up.

Street Fighter Alpha 2.

Normal Alpha Bison is stronger than SFII Bison. We see Ryu, Ken, Cammy, Chun, and Guile jump on SFII Bison to barely pull out a win while Rose solos an even stronger version of Bison.

dXl1zFjpQbo

Startin at 1:15. This ending is said by Capcom to be canon.

Technically, rose defeated vega in sfa3, as well. We have to remember, vega impaling her was a last ditch attempt at survival. Rose kicked his can after he was blown up by Charlie. He was going to die at the hands of rose, in sfa3. He then shoved his soul into rose as his body died off. Rose's win over vega is enforced by the fact that he had to ram his soul into her. After charlie blew up the P.Drive, his soul was no longer eternal. Rose brought him to the verge of death and he had to do something fast.

Dhalsim is more powerful than current Ryu?

Originally posted by cdtm
The thing is, the Elder Gods have the feats too.

According to Mortal Kombat mythology, the Elder Gods took on the One Being that comprised all of reality, and created Kamidogu that they used to shatter its body, than used its remains to create the realms.

This same One Being acted through Onaga and Shao Kahn.

And those same Elder Gods used Scorpian as their champion, to destroy Onaga,

The entire plot of Mortal Kombat: Armageddon is based on the concept of the Mortal Kombat warriors becoming so powerful, they'd threaten all the realms, too..

Basically, Mortal Kombat works on high stakes storylines.. Either an entire realm gets laid waste, or all the realms get threatened, or the Elder Gods that defeated the One Being get threatened.. Yea but Shinnok was beaten by Johnny Cage, they all fall about the same. They're powerful, don't get me wrong. They just haven't been doing the high end SF things with the same consistency.

No End, sorry for saying this, but I don't necessarily agree with your tier ranking of the characters. Firstly we don't have enough on Dhalsim to give him a proper tier, although I believe he's a strong character, I wouldn't put him above someone like Ryu. Dhalsim is not a driven fighter like Ryu, and we have nothing of him ever fighting and standing on par to the fighters that Ryu has had to contend with.

Rose on the other hand, yes she did beat Alpha Bison in Alpha 2, but she got wrecked by Bison in A3. Back in A1 she only put up a decent fight as well. While I do consider this a great feat by her, I don't believe this puts her above current Ryu as well either. Reason being, A2 Dictator is significantly weaker then A3 Dictator.

Ryu by the time of SFIII would've surpassed anyone in the Alpha Series besides only A3 Dictator. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying Rose at all. I truly consider her character a powerful character, and in my mind, I don't believe the tier ranking of her in the canon guide is correct. I feel her ranking in the spot to that of current Ryu, Sagat, Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu is more correct of her positioning.

As for Gen, he is hands down the most difficult character to set because of what he's capable of. I would also like to believe that Gen is on par with current Ryu, again, not above, but on par.

Lastly, for Oni, this question has actually been brought up at Shoryuken.com to Vasili and others. From what they've gathered about Oni is that he in fact actually much weaker then Shin Gouki. The reason is from what they can gather from Capcom is that Oni is the complete opposite of Shin-Gouki. Meaning that Oni is a Gouki completely unable to control his powers and thus is completely unstable, much in the state of say what Ryu would be if he became Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu.

Being that you're powerful but you no longer can control anything. Hence why SFIII Ryu surpasses Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu, this is much in the same case as Oni Gouki.

Here is the direct statement from Vasili...

"Oni represents Gouki as farthest away from Shin Gouki as he can possibly be, and still be identified as Gouki due to CJ's design and profile for him. He's canonically weaker than Gouki was back in SFZ2, and the more flare is just that: more flare to reflect an endless instability."

So Shin Gouki is still the pinnacle of his character because he is utilizing his full potential, but more importantly at his entire peak and without lack of control.

Sadly, I agree that Ingrid may potentially be the most powerful, or in my opinion the most powerful as well. Some of her feats and statements are just downright stupid, and worst of all she's a Lolita character, honestly, wtf Capcom.

That's so depressing.

So Oni is supposed to be weaker? Interesting.

lol@ingrid

Cool@Oni. I always wanted to view him that way.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lastly, for Oni, this question has actually been brought up at Shoryuken.com to Vasili and others. From what they've gathered about Oni is that he in fact actually much weaker then Shin Gouki. The reason is from what they can gather from Capcom is that Oni is the complete opposite of Shin-Gouki. Meaning that Oni is a Gouki completely unable to control his powers and thus is completely unstable, much in the state of say what Ryu would be if he became Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu.

Being that you're powerful but you no longer can control anything. Hence why SFIII Ryu surpasses Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu, this is much in the same case as Oni Gouki.

Here is the direct statement from Vasili...

"Oni represents Gouki as farthest away from Shin Gouki as he can possibly be, and still be identified as Gouki due to CJ's design and profile for him. He's canonically weaker than Gouki was back in SFZ2, and the more flare is just that: more flare to reflect an endless instability."

So Shin Gouki is still the pinnacle of his character because he is utilizing his full potential, but more importantly at his entire peak and without lack of control.

Not sure I agree with this one. There's no evidence to suggest that Gouki is "Not in control" of his powers in this state. The only real difference is that he is more wild and untamed in it's use. Besides, Akuma was supposed to be the master of controlling Satsui no Hadou. To introduce this element and destabilise the character before the events of SF3 would be a little... retarded considering what he can do with those powers later in base form.

Originally posted by JustFrame
No End, sorry for saying this, but I don't necessarily agree with your tier ranking of the characters. Firstly we don't have enough on Dhalsim to give him a proper tier, although I believe he's a strong character, I wouldn't put him above someone like Ryu. Dhalsim is not a driven fighter like Ryu, and we have nothing of him ever fighting and standing on par to the fighters that Ryu has had to contend with.

Rose on the other hand, yes she did beat Alpha Bison in Alpha 2, but she got wrecked by Bison in A3. Back in A1 she only put up a decent fight as well. While I do consider this a great feat by her, I don't believe this puts her above current Ryu as well either. Reason being, A2 Dictator is significantly weaker then A3 Dictator.

Ryu by the time of SFIII would've surpassed anyone in the Alpha Series besides only A3 Dictator. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying Rose at all. I truly consider her character a powerful character, and in my mind, I don't believe the tier ranking of her in the canon guide is correct. I feel her ranking in the spot to that of current Ryu, Sagat, Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu is more correct of her positioning.

As for Gen, he is hands down the most difficult character to set because of what he's capable of. I would also like to believe that Gen is on par with current Ryu, again, not above, but on par.

Lastly, for Oni, this question has actually been brought up at Shoryuken.com to Vasili and others. From what they've gathered about Oni is that he in fact actually much weaker then Shin Gouki. The reason is from what they can gather from Capcom is that Oni is the complete opposite of Shin-Gouki. Meaning that Oni is a Gouki completely unable to control his powers and thus is completely unstable, much in the state of say what Ryu would be if he became Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu.

Being that you're powerful but you no longer can control anything. Hence why SFIII Ryu surpasses Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu, this is much in the same case as Oni Gouki.

Here is the direct statement from Vasili...

"Oni represents Gouki as farthest away from Shin Gouki as he can possibly be, and still be identified as Gouki due to CJ's design and profile for him. He's canonically weaker than Gouki was back in SFZ2, and the more flare is just that: more flare to reflect an endless instability."

So Shin Gouki is still the pinnacle of his character because he is utilizing his full potential, but more importantly at his entire peak and without lack of control.

Sadly, I agree that Ingrid may potentially be the most powerful, or in my opinion the most powerful as well. Some of her feats and statements are just downright stupid, and worst of all she's a Lolita character, honestly, wtf Capcom.

That's so depressing.

That's fine. You may disagree. I put Dhalsim above Ryu cuz Dhalsim he is implied to be above the fray. He has a mastery of the mystic arts and is not a driven fighter because he has found enlightenment. In all honesty, he's at the level Ryu want's to be at. This can be seen by what Gouken, Ryu himself and Rose have to say to him in the SFIV sereis.

Rose: "You are like me, aren't you? You can see things others cannot..."

Ryu: "I never tire of watching you in action. Your moves are inspiring."

Gouken: "Your heart is pure and your path righteous."


Rose is stronger than current Ryu. Ryu has gotten stronger, but Ryu in SFIII hasn't gotten to a level where he can beat the SFII versions of himself, Ken, Guile, Cammy, and Chun Li at the same time. SFIII Ryu can't beat SFII Bison. Rose can, and we know this because she beat SFA2 Bison. A stronger version of Bison SFIII Ryu can not beat.

Also, SFA1 is not canon and Ryu, by the time of 3S would not have surpassed any version of Bison. And to consider it, I would need facts and substantial evidence.

And About Gen. I seriously doubt 3S Ryu is beatin this dude.
OT5aBHvlPD4
Given the fact that he can go toe to toe with normal Akuma and Ryu can not is enough evidence for me.

And as for Oni, sorry to say it so bluntly but what they said on SRK is clearly wrong. Vasili is a cool guy who I look to often, but in this case, he is very wrong. Word Of God>>>>>>>>SRK, for me.Capcom has stated...

Capcom
Kuruoshiki Oni (which I shall translate as Batsh**-Insane Oni) was created to be beyond Shin Akuma.

Official blog
http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/04/12_3082.html

Translation
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27070217&postcount=9770

Lol Smh at the bastard child of SF. I try to pretend Ingrid is not a SF at all in threads where she is a main focus. I only mention her for accuracy's sake. A terrible, terrible SF character...created by an amazin, amazin video game developer. Wtf were you smokin Neo_G?!


Originally posted by Zack Fair
lol@ingrid

Cool@Oni. I always wanted to view him that way.

You may have wanted to, but it's not true.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So Oni is supposed to be weaker? Interesting.

He is not. He appears to lack control because he doesn't care anymore. Not because he's genuinely out of control.

Originally posted by No End N Site


You may have wanted to, but it's not true.





http://i56.tinypic.com/t8ta20.jpg

So you think Rose can beat Ryu, Cammy, Ken, Guile and Chunli by her lonesome?

YES!!!

Seriously, look at the facts. She beat a version of Bison who would have no problem doin that. She aint above Shin Bison but she is at least above regular Bison of Alpha...since she did beat him

Wait, you think that SF3 Ryu is weaker than SF2 Bison? Ryu is humble and looks to grow, so he may understate his ability. I wouldn't think they meant to portray Oni as weaker in this time though.

Originally posted by No End N Site
YES!!!

Seriously, look at the facts. She beat a version of Bison who would have no problem doin that. She aint above Shin Bison but she is at least above regular Bison of Alpha...since she did beat him

Doesn't really mean she can beat them, but fine by me.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Wait, you think that SF3 Ryu is weaker than SF2 Bison? Ryu is humble and looks to grow, so he may understate his ability. I wouldn't think they meant to portray Oni as weaker in this time though.

Can SFIII Ryu even stand a chance against himself, Ken, Cammy, Chun, and Guile at the same time? SFII Bison can. Have people seen the blast SFII Bison tanked? Or what about the teleport spam he's capable of. The giant dome power up blast he did? I mean, they guy only lost cuz he was SGSed by Akuma.Originally posted by Zack Fair
Doesn't really mean she can beat them, but fine by me.

Seriously dude?

She is more powerful than the version of Bison that took them all on at once. She's only ever lost to Bison and that was when he was amped or near full power.

Is it cool on the streets to underestimate plot established boss level characters, now?

When did SF2 Bison do that?

Remember Alpha Ryu had a "draw" against Akuma in Alpha. In SF3 I'd say he past Alpha Akuma. So I'd say SF3 Ryu would be capable of doing that to the weaker SF2 versions of those characters. My opinion though.

Are all these feats from games, or from some kind of anime or something?

Sounds pretty elaborate for game history.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
When did SF2 Bison do that?

Remember Alpha Ryu had a "draw" against Akuma in Alpha. In SF3 I'd say he past Alpha Akuma. So I'd say SF3 Ryu would be capable of doing that to the weaker SF2 versions of those characters. My opinion though.

The C.Viper after math trailer. It takes place shortly after SFII. They all jump Bison and it shows Bison, even in SFII, is still boss status.

HIPnSgwPBg4

startin at 0:40 I don't see SFIII Ryu touchin this.


And Ryu Vs Akuma, it wasn't really a draw. Akuma was just testin'im. I do agree that Ryu is past Alpha Akuma by the time of SFIII, in fact, this is all but stated. However, I don't see him takin'em all on at once. I don't even think he'd beat Chun and Guile's SFII versions at once. Same for Akuma, weirdly enough. Thanks to SFIV's established canon, Alpha Akuma wouldn't beat'im all either.

The gap between II and III is about 6 years at the most, thanks to the retcon of SFIII characters being in IV, unchanged.

Originally posted by No End N Site


Seriously dude?

She is more powerful than the version of Bison that took them all on at once. She's only ever lost to Bison and that was when he was amped or near full power.

Is it cool on the streets to underestimate plot established boss level characters, now?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Eilonnwy/GIFS%20and%20Macros/Angry%20or%20Annoyed/SAM-JACKSON-CLAPPING-GIF.gif

I don't think it means she can solo them, but like I said if you think she can then cool. It is not like I have the time and desire to convince you otherwise.

No. You don't have the desire! Maybe if you were actually Samuel Jackson, you'd have a chance.

He could convince anyone into anything!

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/samuel_L_Jackson.gif

Just look at'im!

The only Street Fighter toon I watched was that old 90's one, based on the terrible movie.

These animes look kind of like DBZ lite.

Originally posted by No End N Site
That's fine. You may disagree. I put Dhalsim above Ryu cuz Dhalsim he is implied to be above the fray. He has a mastery of the mystic arts and is not a driven fighter because he has found enlightenment. In all honesty, he's at the level Ryu want's to be at.

Dhalsim's path is not that of a Warrior path within the same case as Ryu. Although he has reached enlightment, that does not make him stronger as a fighter then Ryu. Not to mention, the more important value, we have almost little to no references of who he has contended against and fought.

Being enlightened or a great fighter are two completely different things here.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Rose: "You are like me, aren't you? You can see things others cannot..."

Ryu: "I never tire of watching you in action. Your moves are inspiring."

Gouken: "Your heart is pure and your path righteous."

Rose is stronger than current Ryu. Ryu has gotten stronger, but Ryu in SFIII hasn't gotten to a level where he can beat the SFII versions of himself, Ken, Guile, Cammy, and Chun Li at the same time. SFIII Ryu can't beat SFII Bison. Rose can, and we know this because she beat SFA2 Bison. A stronger version of Bison SFIII Ryu can not beat.

Also, SFA1 is not canon and Ryu, by the time of 3S would not have surpassed any version of Bison. And to consider it, I would need facts and substantial evidence.

Rose was stronger then Ryu during the Alpha Series. Remember one thing, "had" Ryu gone Satsui-No-Hadou during the Alpha Series, he would've rivaled Gouki during that time frame, hence why Gouki wanted Ryu to tap into that power so he could have a worthy fight. However we know that by the time SFIII rolls around, Ryu has surpassed that peak of what Satsui-No-Hadou would've taken him back in Alpha.

More evidence to prove prove this? Back during 2nd Impact Ryu show cases to Gouki with the official translations from the cannon guide

"For I......For I will show you that which surpasses satsui no hadou!"

The guide not only says that Ryu tells Gouki that SnH is surpassable as if it's just a hypothetical speech; he states that it is and he'll prove it. Ryu would have that kind of stance on the matter only if he'd know he can do it and he would do it.

Capcom Japan then goes even more into this statement to how Ryu is now superior in SFIII without resorting to SNH by stating that Ryu's moves consists of moves that overwhelm purely SnH-based ones, particularly the Denjin hadouken because it involves tapping into SnH for an extremely brief interval then snapping back out of it and being granted much greater power in the process than SnH could alone.

Gouki also affirms to him that during 2I he's finally (since they last battled in Z2) in the neighborhood of the level he was with SnH briefly taking him over to scar Sagat, so Gouki understands he's at least that powerful again, though without SnH tempting him.

This is why their is no way Rose is going to be above Ryu in his III form. The only ones who would stand a chance against Ryu by this time are the super elites, and those equal to him in abilities. SFIII Ryu is a Ryu who would've been capable of defeating his SNH Ryu counterpart and the Alpha Series Gouki (Not Current SFIII Gouki). This would definitely allow Ryu to be able to contend and beat Alpha Dictator Pre-A3 version mind you.

So again, I don't see how either Gen, Rose, or Dhalsim are above Ryu when he's reached such a level during SF3.


Originally posted by No End N Site
And About Gen. I seriously doubt 3S Ryu is beatin this dude.
Given the fact that he can go toe to toe with normal Akuma and Ryu can not is enough evidence for me.

And as for Oni, sorry to say it so bluntly but what they said on SRK is clearly wrong. Vasili is a cool guy who I look to often, but in this case, he is very wrong. Word Of God>>>>>>>>SRK, for me.Capcom has stated...

Official blog
http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/04/12_3082.html

Translation
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27070217&postcount=9770

Actually, I've seen this before, and again, let me interpret this as much as possible, because you guys are misinterpreting this entire cascade with Oni-Gouki. First that translation that you mentioned of the "most powerful" actually pertains to the in-game/cpu wise of him, and not the storyline of SF itself.

Considering that Oni Gouki in his form removes completely from what Capcom Japan has made of Gouki's true purpose within the entire SF storyline all the way to SFIII.

"Oni is not the incarnation of SnH. He's the incarnation of Gouki being stripped down to the final fragments of his own will in an unwilling exchange for the nearly-total will of the "demon" he had allowed to keep within him ever since he unleashed his first-ever SGS. The demon is really a fierce god, or onigami/kishin (Oni frequently calls himself by the second of these two romanizations). The onigami itself can exist with or without SnH; it's completely independent of any particular power, and just wants to feed off of power in general, as long as that power brings carnage with it.

Gouki is Oni's vessel only once Oni is allowed to exist, and only a reluctant vessel at that. Oni is caught in between Gouki's will to retain his former bodily shape, and the onigami's will wanting to ravagingly deform it, hence Oni looking bulkier than Gouki would be.

SnH is no ultimate power, and Oni doesn't utilize SnH alone. The reason Oni doesn't end up stronger than Shin Gouki (meaning Gouki not holding back any of his power) is because Oni ends up being neither completely devoid of a human being nor the total essence of a fierce god. Both Gouki's (just barely) and the onigami's clashing wills are present in the being known as Oni, and as such neither one can fully exploit and abuse the full power acquired by the other. This is why Oni's feat in his ending doesn't compare with what Gouki does as far back as Zero 2.

To put it another way, Shin Gouki retains his full murderous humanity and the onigami retains its back seat and watches, only to take over when and if Gouki fails, while Oni is Gouki failed, onigami taking over, and still Gouki won't let it do so anyway, no matter how feeble his will now is."

Hence why SFIII Shin Gouki>>>>>>Oni. Shin Gouki is a Gouki who has complete control of all of his powers, while Oni is unstable because he can no longer focus or channel his energy with proper control.

This is why his powers are literally exploding violently everywhere to portray this effect. Where as Shin Gouki can achieve this same effect if he wanted too, but without resorting to wasted energy.

Originally posted by No End N Site
The C.Viper after math trailer. It takes place shortly after SFII. They all jump Bison and it shows Bison, even in SFII, is still boss status.

HIPnSgwPBg4

startin at 0:40 I don't see SFIII Ryu touchin this.


And Ryu Vs Akuma, it wasn't really a draw. Akuma was just testin'im. I do agree that Ryu is past Alpha Akuma by the time of SFIII, in fact, this is all but stated. However, I don't see him takin'em all on at once. I don't even think he'd beat Chun and Guile's SFII versions at once. Same for Akuma, weirdly enough. Thanks to SFIV's established canon, Alpha Akuma wouldn't beat'im all either.

The gap between II and III is about 6 years at the most, thanks to the retcon of SFIII characters being in IV, unchanged. The scene at 00:53 really amazes me since the first time I saw it. Even before SFIV I always felt Chun was pretty damn powerful but it's in this clip that we can truly see the beast she is while not restricted by game mechanics. To be honest, that video even makes me ask how does she compare to Ryu and Ken in terms of raw power, because at least by feats she has them beat for sure.

Originally posted by No End N Site
The C.Viper after math trailer. It takes place shortly after SFII. They all jump Bison and it shows Bison, even in SFII, is still boss status.

HIPnSgwPBg4

startin at 0:40 I don't see SFIII Ryu touchin this.


And Ryu Vs Akuma, it wasn't really a draw. Akuma was just testin'im. I do agree that Ryu is past Alpha Akuma by the time of SFIII, in fact, this is all but stated. However, I don't see him takin'em all on at once. I don't even think he'd beat Chun and Guile's SFII versions at once. Same for Akuma, weirdly enough. Thanks to SFIV's established canon, Alpha Akuma wouldn't beat'im all either.

The gap between II and III is about 6 years at the most, thanks to the retcon of SFIII characters being in IV, unchanged. Akuma in Alpha was comparable IMO. Ryu just isn't as destructive as that. It would be nice to see what his most powerful version can do besides lift a boulder. Probably never will show much though.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Dhalsim's path is not that of a Warrior path within the same case as Ryu. Although he has reached enlightment, that does not make him stronger as a fighter then Ryu. Not to mention, the more important value, we have almost little to no references of who he has contended against and fought.

Being enlightened or a great fighter are two completely different things here.



Rose was stronger then Ryu during the Alpha Series. Remember one thing, "had" Ryu gone Satsui-No-Hadou during the Alpha Series, he would've rivaled Gouki during that time frame, hence why Gouki wanted Ryu to tap into that power so he could have a worthy fight. However we know that by the time SFIII rolls around, Ryu has surpassed that peak of what Satsui-No-Hadou would've taken him back in Alpha. More evidence to prove prove this? Back during 2nd Impact Ryu show cases to Gouki with the official translations from the cannon guide."For I......For I will show you that which surpasses satsui no hadou!" The guide not only says that Ryu tells Gouki that SnH is surpassable as if it's just a hypothetical speech; he states that it is and he'll prove it. Ryu would have that kind of stance on the matter only if he'd know he can do it and he would do it. Capcom Japan then goes even more into this statement to how Ryu is now superior in SFIII without resorting to SNH by stating that Ryu's moves consists of moves that overwhelm purely SnH-based ones, particularly the Denjin hadouken because it involves tapping into SnH for an extremely brief interval then snapping back out of it and being granted much greater power in the process than SnH could alone.
Gouki also affirms to him that during 2I he's finally (since they last battled in Z2) in the neighborhood of the level he was with SnH briefly taking him over to scar Sagat, so Gouki understands he's at least that powerful again, though without SnH tempting him.

This is why their is no way Rose is going to be above Ryu in his III form. The only ones who would stand a chance against Ryu by this time are the super elites, and those equal to him in abilities. SFIII Ryu is a Ryu who would've been capable of defeating his SNH Ryu counterpart and the Alpha Series Gouki (Not Current SFIII Gouki). This would definitely allow Ryu to be able to contend and beat Alpha Dictator Pre-A3 version mind you.

So again, I don't see how either Gen, Rose, or Dhalsim are above Ryu when he's reached such a level during SF3.




Actually, I've seen this before, and again, let me interpret this as much as possible, because you guys are misinterpreting this entire cascade with Oni-Gouki. First that translation that you mentioned of the "most powerful" actually pertains to the in-game/cpu wise of him, and not the storyline of SF itself.

Considering that Oni Gouki in his form removes completely from what Capcom Japan has made of Gouki's true purpose within the entire SF storyline all the way to SFIII.

"Oni is not the incarnation of SnH. He's the incarnation of Gouki being stripped down to the final fragments of his own will in an unwilling exchange for the nearly-total will of the "demon" he had allowed to keep within him ever since he unleashed his first-ever SGS. The demon is really a fierce god, or onigami/kishin (Oni frequently calls himself by the second of these two romanizations). The onigami itself can exist with or without SnH; it's completely independent of any particular power, and just wants to feed off of power in general, as long as that power brings carnage with it.

Gouki is Oni's vessel only once Oni is allowed to exist, and only a reluctant vessel at that. Oni is caught in between Gouki's will to retain his former bodily shape, and the onigami's will wanting to ravagingly deform it, hence Oni looking bulkier than Gouki would be.

SnH is no ultimate power, and Oni doesn't utilize SnH alone. The reason Oni doesn't end up stronger than Shin Gouki (meaning Gouki not holding back any of his power) is because Oni ends up being neither completely devoid of a human being nor the total essence of a fierce god. Both Gouki's (just barely) and the onigami's clashing wills are present in the being known as Oni, and as such neither one can fully exploit and abuse the full power acquired by the other. This is why Oni's feat in his ending doesn't compare with what Gouki does as far back as Zero 2.

To put it another way, Shin Gouki retains his full murderous humanity and the onigami retains its back seat and watches, only to take over when and if Gouki fails, while Oni is Gouki failed, onigami taking over, and still Gouki won't let it do so anyway, no matter how feeble his will now is."

Hence why SFIII Shin Gouki>>>>>>Oni. Shin Gouki is a Gouki who has complete control of all of his powers, while Oni is unstable because he can no longer focus or channel his energy with proper control.

This is why his powers are literally exploding violently everywhere to portray this effect. Where as Shin Gouki can achieve this same effect if he wanted too, but without resorting to wasted energy.

It does not matter what Dhalsim's path is, to me. He exudes the aura of an enlightened monk. He is always the 1st to sense evil and always operates above and away from the rest of the cast. This leads me to believe that he is on a level above the average SF.

Well I see things differently. Being enlightened and a great fighter are not all that different in the world of SF, since Ryu, who is a great fighter, aspires to have a demeanor like that of Dhalsim, who is also like that of his own master, Gouken.

I agree with Ryu surpassin Alpha Akuma. And I am one never lets anyone forget it, in a Ryu VS thread. I've even posted scans of Capcom makin this statement.

However, I would just point out that Evil Ryu in SFA would rival Normal Akuma. Not Shin. He wouldn't match Shin Akuma unless he gave in completely and as seen in his story mode, that would take time since he had to have several key battles to decide to give in completely to the point where there is no turnin back. Even in SFIII, there isn't a showin, or piece of story detail that would allow Ryu to defeat any version of Bison. Ryu gangs up on Bison and then, in just a few years, be capable of beatin a Bison twice as powerful as the one he needed the help of 4 other people, before?

I'm just gonna say it, Normal Alpha Akuma can not beat Rose. He had to use an SGS on SFII Bison, he cranked out his greatest move on the weakest version of Bison. Rose, years before, solos Alpha Bison, a stronger version than Akuma fought. The common logic in makin my decision doesn't get any clearer, to me. It makes me sad that everyone is down playin Rose like this. She's a great character.

You have a point on Gen, tho. I forget that with his illness, he wouldn't have gotten stronger in SFIII and in all honesty, would've been weaker. Ryu would defeat Gen and it probably wouldn't be the hardest battle Ryu's ever faced. That said, I could be wrong; given what his fate may be after SSFIV.

And as far as Oni goes, I'm sorry, man. But as cool and as deep as what you said sounds. Nothin you can say disproves a very clear cut, decisive and simple statement made by Capcom...unless o'course, you can find another official statement by Capcom contradictin the claims of the creators.

He even has quotes that attest to the fact that he is the strongest form of Akuma.

Oni to Akuma in Oni's pre fight boss fight intro"Fool. I've evolved beyond you."


Oni to Akuma, after defeating Akuma"Now you know what a real god is."


Akuma to Oni, after defeating OniMy fists can destroy even the gods!
Clearly, Akuma views Oni as some sort of God.

Even Evil Ryu sees Oni as stronger, let's compare quotes.

He says to Akuma,


He says to Oni,


Even Bison states,

This comes form a man who has fought an died against Akuma before.

You add all this to official statements and the fact that Oni is the boss Above Shin Akuma and it's pretty clear who the strongest is. This is another thing I think I should remind you of. Shin Akuma is still in SSFIV:AE and is below both Evil Ryu and Oni. Oni is the true boss of that game.Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Akuma in Alpha was comparable IMO. Ryu just isn't as destructive as that. It would be nice to see what his most powerful version can do besides lift a boulder. Probably never will show much though.

Thank you C, that is my point. Akuma in Alpha is 'comparable' to THAT Bison. Bison in Alpha is a ABOVE THAT Bison.

I think we may see Ryu display some high level showings, if and when he finally fights Akuma, once and for all.

Not to derail the discussion here, but..

Is Ken even a blip on the radar anymore? Back in the day, he used to be top tier, as far as strength in the storyline.. I believe he had the natural talent, while Ken was the hard worker.

Now it sounds like he's basically been left in the dust..

As of SFIV, Ryu and Ken are still around the same level. When we get to SFIII, Ryu becomes the stronger of them.

Originally posted by No End N Site
It does not matter what Dhalsim's path is, to me. He exudes the aura of a an enlightened monk. He is always the 1st to sense evil and always operates above and away from the rest of the cast. This leads me to believe that he is on a level above the average SF.

Well I see things differently. Being enlightened and a great fighter are not all that different in the world of SF, since Ryu, who is a great fighter, aspires to have a demeanor like that of Dhalsim, who is also like that of his own master, Gouken.

Being an elighten Monk doesn't put him on a level that pushes him above Ryu. Just because he's spiritually on a higher place then Ryu per say, does not mean that he's a more formidable fighter, otherwise why wasn't Dictator looking for Sim's body to take over, or that the only one to give Gouki his dream match is basically Ryu.

Dhalsim is a fighter, however he isn't a fighter looking to become more powerful in the same mannerism that we are seeing Ryu taking a step towards.

Just simply being enlightened and having the capability to be able to sense evil prior to others does not put him on a fighter level that all of a sudden pushes him above someone like Ryu.

Originally posted by No End N Site
~pertaining to Ryu vs Gouki in the Alpha Series and Alpha Bison

SnH Ryu is basically a Ryu who has given into SnH completely. Their is little to no restrictions here. Within SnH Ryu's ending for a "what if" he would've been powerful enough have killed and beaten Gouki, which is shown in his what if ending had he'd gone Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu. Watch that ending again, it's not regular Gouki, but Shin Gouki who confronts Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu and loses. Again, Gouki is only holding back against norm. Ryu in Alpha is because Gouki wants him to unleash his full potential (Meaning SnH) then only then will he have the true fight that he wants in which he can display his full capability.

SnH Ryu during Alpha would've been very capable of fighting Shin Gouki at this time, because he would've been rivaled him. The A3 What if Storyline showcases this, and displays how powerful SnH Ryu would've been at that time period.

Here is the direct "What If" Ending
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjzdk_LG1E0

SFIII Ryu is indeed powerful enough at this point to be equal to his SnH version who would've been capable of defeating an Alpha Gouki at that point and time. Obviously of course, Gouki during SFIII has now surpassed this level.

So the idea and though of a SFIII Ryu being capable of defeating Alpha Dictator prior to his Super Elite Mode Alpha 3 version is very possible if his what if storyline shows him even overthrowing a Shin Gouki.

Again, its not like the tier placements that Vasili made for putting Ryu above the characters you mentioned doesn't make sense, when he and a few others have basically done the most homework and the most Capcom Japanese Translations of the Canon Guide/interviews/Game Dialogues to English.

I'm not saying they are right all the time (The Gouken was clone idea was absurd imo by Vasili), however Ryu being above Rose, Gen, and Dhalsim, I can very easily agree with that.

Originally posted by No End N Site
~Pertaining to Oni~

He is not the strongest form of Gouki. Again that translations isn't correct at all, and pertains to his strength within the game mechanics "as the strongest".

Here is the true official Oni Profile...

http://www.capcom.co.jp/sf4/oni.html#character_btn

Here is the Complete Translation from a japanese translator (remember, not perfect english, but you'll get the idea)...

Kyouoshiki Oni; (Mentally Possessed) Oni

Onigami to Pierce the Heavens

The having continued consequence of being exposed to "satsui no hadou", Gouki's appearance transfigured to one completely not of a person. Already now for the flesh and sentiment as a human being almost unremaining, with just a consciousness toward pure-like combat is retaining his shape. For the one who stood before that, to fight entirely the limit of desperate effort maybe, only the option of giving up to die perhaps is not being granted.

Name: Kyouoshiki Oni
Represented nation: unknown
Birthday: unknown
Height: unknown
Weight: unknown
BWH sizes: unknown
Blood type: unknown
Likes: unknown
Dislikes: unknown
Special skill: unknown
Fighting style: none


Ultras include the tenchi soukaigen and the meido gou hadou which has two alternate forms: the messatsu gou zankuu and the messatsu goutenha, and new sure-kill techniques include the gourai hadouken (the only "gou" matching with Goutetsu's name, all others are the same as in Gouki's), the zankuu hadoushou, the akaboshi jiraiken, and the rakan dantoujin. And because it was previously asked and now answerable, his uppercut which looks like a shin shoryuken is named the gou shoryuken.

Even within another interview in which Seth Killian describes Oni as a Gouki within his final "demon" form (notice how he clearly states Demon Form which makes sense considering his name literally means Mentally Possessed).

This again, goes back to what is being noted. Gouki speaks of Oni as is because its Gouki losing his entire will or close to it, and thus Onigami is able to almost completely take over and consume him. Hence why you see Oni speaking in the way that he does. Remember that every time Gouki unleashes SGS he has a chance to fall into the gap of what would turn him into Oni, however when SFIII rolls around, we know for a fact this is not the case.

All of what Oni is what would only happen if Gouki fails at his true purpose of what he's pursuing, much in the same case for a situation to what Ryu would've if he completely succumbed to Satsui-No-Hadou.

That's why Oni is specifically shown again displaying and dispersing his energy with complete and utter instability. Where as Shin Gouki would be capable of all of those abilities without losing control of his energy or abilities is because he is a perfect blend without lack of true thought.

The other reason why Oni is considered weaker then his Z2 version is not just simply because of instability, but also his feat. It's not even as impressive as what holding back Gouki did to his island. Making an already unstable volcano explode while using a significant amount of force in order to do so isn't as impressive as an already weakened Gouki but yet still holding back sinking an island with a strike to the ground.

Oni's ending again reflects what I've mentioned.

Put the two together and it makes perfect sense. Oni-Gouki in his form is nearly consumed by Onigami and can no longer focus his powers while just violently throwing them out because his human will is nearly gone at this point. Where as Shin Gouki at 100% is fully capable of his powers but then has the ability to fully channel his abilities at will.

Geez you guys can talk about sf a lot.

Indeed, SF is what cool people talk about. As always, these posts are interesting reads and I have a lot to say, but I really don't feel like typin' so much right now.

Rest asure, I will respond with a wall of text at a later date, like tomorrow.

Street fighter is entering the cool zone! Look out world!

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
Geez you guys can talk about sf a lot.

Yeah, this has turned into a Street Fighter timeline thread.

Wonder how Shin Akuma would stand against the Darkstalkers top five..?

He would be less than an ant. And going ONI wouldn't help him at all. You wouldn't even need the top 5. Anakaris or huitzil would solo the sf verse, and they're just a run of the mill darkstalker and a dumb robot. Ingrid's about the only character to stand a chance.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
He would be less than an ant. And going ONI wouldn't help him at all. You wouldn't even need the top 5. Anakaris or huitzil would solo the sf verse, and they're just a run of the mill darkstalker and a dumb robot. Ingrid's about the only character to stand a chance.

What's Ingrid have going for her that suggests she's Darkstalker powerful?

http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Ingrid

This wiki makes her look "Stronger than Bison, maybe" powerful at most.

She's FTl, has time travel, capable of blocking attacks from SFs with just her finger, vast psychic powers, capable of wielding the energy of stars, just a piece of her power is equal to a world supply of psycho power and much more.

Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
She's FTl, has time travel, capable of blocking attacks from SFs with just her finger, vast psychic powers, capable of wielding the energy of stars, just a piece of her power is equal to a world supply of psycho power and much more.

Energy of the stars, and faster than light? I don't remember anything about stars or her speed from Alpha 3 Max, although all of that other stuff sounds about right.. Rose couldn't read her future, and Ingrid knew all about Rose and Ryu, she cured dark Ryu just by fighting him, went to the future.. I remember Bison was using a machine to power himself up with psycho power, too, yet she beat him pretty easily...

It never stated that Akuma "had" to use a SGS against SF2 Bison, just that he did. But I'd definitely say Ryu is more powerful. Although they don't show "feats" (like they do in comic books) it's clear where there intent was.

Ingrid

Also, there is a possibility that Ingrid can travel through time, as she mentions heading to the year 205X and seeing that Ryu has somehow become a monk. It is also safe to say that she is from the future and possibly might be related to Ryu, but her face appearance is somewhat similar to Juri,it is possible that she is related to both of them

*cough* JapanXKorean steamy action?

Originally posted by cdtm
Energy of the stars, and faster than light? I don't remember anything about stars or her speed from Alpha 3 Max, although all of that other stuff sounds about right.. Rose couldn't read her future, and Ingrid knew all about Rose and Ryu, she cured dark Ryu just by fighting him, went to the future.. I remember Bison was using a machine to power himself up with psycho power, too, yet she beat him pretty easily...

She is stated to wield Star/Light Energy. This can be seen, flying off of her limbs, in the game. She is also, officialy, called the Sun Goddess.

She flies around the universe, traverses dimensions, and states that she, herself, is from outer space, yet she makes it to all locations in very reasonable amounts of time. She is indeed FTL. Alpha 3 Max wasn't the only game she was in. CFJ is also canon to Ingrid and is the game responsible for her being an official character under the SF franchise.

Originally posted by No End N Site
Indeed, SF is what cool people talk about.

Correction: SF is cool for people to talk about.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Being an elighten Monk doesn't put him on a level that pushes him above Ryu. Just because he's spiritually on a higher place then Ryu per say, does not mean that he's a more formidable fighter, otherwise why wasn't Dictator looking for Sim's body to take over, or that the only one to give Gouki his dream match is basically Ryu.

Okay, I see what you are sayin and I agree. Ryu is a warrior and Dhalsim is a religious monk. My point is, that if Ryu fought Dhalsim, in a fight, Ryu would lose.

Originally posted by JustFrame
Dhalsim is a fighter, however he isn't a fighter looking to become more powerful in the same mannerism that we are seeing Ryu taking a step towards.

Agreed. But how do we know that Ryu's case was not Dhalsim's same case, when Sim was young like Ryu?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Just simply being enlightened and having the capability to be able to sense evil prior to others does not put him on a fighter level that all of a sudden pushes him above someone like Ryu.

That wasn't my point. The gist of what I was sayin, is that Dhalsim is older, wiser and has a better understandin of the human spirit. Dhalsim is beyond the point of strivin to become a better fighter. His life goals have been achieved. Unlike Ryu, who is still in the fray.

Originally posted by JustFrame
SnH Ryu is basically a Ryu who has given into SnH completely. Their is little to no restrictions here. Within SnH Ryu's ending for a "what if" he would've been powerful enough have killed and beaten Gouki, which is shown in his what if ending had he'd gone Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu. Watch that ending again, it's not regular Gouki, but Shin Gouki who confronts Satsui-No-Hadou Ryu and loses. Again, Gouki is only holding back against norm. Ryu in Alpha is because Gouki wants him to unleash his full potential (Meaning SnH) then only then will he have the true fight that he wants in which he can display his full capability.

I already know all of this. What we seem to skip over is everything that happened before that ending. At the start of Evil Ryu's story, he wasn't completely enveloped in the power of the SNH. He 1st confronted Sagat, and Shin Bison. He was not driven to give in completely until he faced Shin Akuma. Evil Ryu's story didn't start with'im instantly above S.Akuma. Hell, Evil Ryu probably couldn't even beat Sagat at the start of his story. Sagat didn't even put his heart in to his battle with Evil Ryu and still managed to walk away alive. That's what I'm gettin at here.


Originally posted by JustFrame
SnH Ryu during Alpha would've been very capable of fighting Shin Gouki at this time, because he would've been rivaled him. The A3 What if Storyline showcases this, and displays how powerful SnH Ryu would've been at that time period.

Yes, a Total Evil Ryu at that time would match S.Akuma, at that time as well. But when they say he found a power to replace the SNH, I think they meant normal Ryu has surpassed the power of the SNH, Ryu canonly used. Not the "what if" Ryu who completely gives in. When, in canon, Ryu uses the SNH (not give in to the SNH, totally), I would put him at Normal Akuma's level. Not beyond that.


Originally posted by JustFrame

SFIII Ryu is indeed powerful enough at this point to be equal to his SnH version who would've been capable of defeating an Alpha Gouki at that point and time. Obviously of course, Gouki during SFIII has now surpassed this level.

As sated above, I simply cannot agree with that. I can agree with Ryu, in SFIII, being above Normal Alpha Akuma, but not being above Alpha S.Akuma.


Originally posted by JustFrame
So the idea and though of a SFIII Ryu being capable of defeating Alpha Dictator prior to his Super Elite Mode Alpha 3 version is very possible if his what if storyline shows him even overthrowing a Shin Gouki.

Again, I can't agree with this. The story clearly depicts Ryu (of SFII) needin the help of 4 others to beat SFII Bison. Ryu, just 5 or 6 years later, would not have the power to defeat a Bison twice as powerful (Alpha Bison).

Originally posted by JustFrame
Again, its not like the tier placements that Vasili made for putting Ryu above the characters you mentioned doesn't make sense, when he and a few others have basically done the most homework and the most Capcom Japanese Translations of the Canon Guide/interviews/Game Dialogues to English.

It makes sense, just not correct sense. Their tiers have characters set in all over the place. They have nearly 10 tiers. No way is their that many. 90% of the SF cast across all games can be placed in the same tier. As mush as I respect those guys and are thankful for their inputs, just cuz Yun has the slight edge over Yang, doesn't mean they should be on 2 completely different levels. Same for Sakura and Karin. Theses characters should not be on different tiers. And just cuz we don't have alotta info on 1 character doesn't mean they should instantly be low tier. They make all of these mistakes and that's why I can't take it seriously, as well put together as it is.



Originally posted by JustFrame
I'm not saying they are right all the time (The Gouken was clone idea was absurd imo by Vasili), however Ryu being above Rose, Gen, and Dhalsim, I can very easily agree with that.

My logic is brought to reality by the culmination of plot events and character info. Based on this, I can not agree.




Originally posted by JustFrame
Concerning Oni

None of the text you provided over turns the canon and official information I have presented. Oni is stated to be above Akuma, by Capcom, as I have shown. Your attempt to counter this is based solely on semantics and how you feel. Your theories are intriguing, but they are still theories, nonetheless. lol You can look at the names and meanings of their Ultras and the Ultras themselves and tell Oni far superior.

I mean seriously, the man can now fly and preform midair demons. Shin Akuma's intro has him crashin into the stage from the sky. Oni is seen comin down in a f**kin Magneto force field.

Shin Akuma is Akuma wieldin the maximum amount of SNH he can control; the max amount of SNH any human can possibly control.

Oni is a Akuma, transformed into a demon, now with no limits to the amount of SNH he can dish out. he is literally a being made out of SNH, he is the embodiment SNH.

http://media.eventhubs.com/images/2011/07/05_onicostume.jpg

Shin Akuma has nothin on this.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Correction: SF is cool for people to talk about.

That's not actually a correction, it's an addition. SF is what cool people talk about 'And' is cool for people to talk about.Originally posted by Frisky Dingo
Ingrid's about the only character to stand a chance. Pleez don't start this, Ingrid would get her ass beat just as well.

Originally posted by No End N Site
That's not actually a correction, it's an addition. SF is what cool people talk about 'And' is cool for people to talk about.

Nope. It was a correction, like I said.

Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Nope. It was a correction, like I said.

Hey man...don't hate.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loniclPXCw1qlu5f9o1_400.gif

Hey, I'm a cool guy.



So I don't hate.

You're ok you little troll.

i think shao khan takes this becouse he cant be defeated,he always finds a way to comeback in he's killer body.

Originally posted by samirerre
i think shao khan takes this becouse he cant be defeated,he always finds a way to comeback in he's killer body.

http://i.imgur.com/mqxxC.gif

Originally posted by samirerre
i think shao khan takes this becouse he cant be defeated,he always finds a way to comeback in he's killer body.

http://shimmie.shishnet.org/v2/_images/e43154cd243ea45f45a7f3635ddb9312/2528%20-%20dawg%20dog%20wut.jpg

Can't be defeated? even though he has been?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_REUBiFZATNw/TLcBQVbi1VI/AAAAAAAAA80/ARGk5_UfnT0/s1600/riiiiight..PNG

Shin Gouki being stronger then Oni is base off Ryu's SFA2 ending, basically Gouki destoryes a volcanic island while causing it to erupt by just punching the ground. while Oni jumps in the air and chops a already ready to erupt volcano making it expolded. well that's the bases of the reason anyways.

Originally posted by unrealman
Shin Gouki being stronger then Oni is base off Ryu's SFA2 ending, basically Gouki destoryes a volcanic island while causing it to erupt by just punching the ground. while Oni jumps in the air and chops a already ready to erupt volcano making it expolded. well that's the bases of the reason anyways.

Yes, and yet Oni survived the ensuing lava bath unscathed. He has flight capabilities now as well. Shin Akuma does not boast these capabilities.

I'll give him the flight thing. Maybe that's a new ability. It wouldn't make sense for him not to have it in SF3. All that retconning and adding new abilities leads to confusion for average fans who just casually play the game.

After playing MK9 story mode and watching the endings, I still can't see how people still believe some SF characters would stand any sort of chance against MK characters.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Lui Kang vs Ryu = ryu What has Ryu done other than once defeating Sagat with a cheap wake up Shoryuken?

Liu Kang:

Protector of Earthrealm
3 time Champion of Mortal Kombat (MK1, MK2, MK4)
Defeated Raiden in two realities becoming a god in both occasions of:
1.Fire
2.Thunder

Defeated Shang Tsung Twice
Defeated SHAO KAHN <<<<<<<<<<

Liu Kang takes this in seconds. Even in his human form.

lol haters gonna hate,i will just middle finger to you lol

Why does this thread even exist?

Closed.