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Superman can't BFR or destroy the Planet. This is a str8 flat out single target fight. Who wins?

Zoom.

I see no way Supes can take him out unless he gets lucky with a power punch.

Maybe TVO but I rather not debate that. Plot Devices are annoying.

Zoom.

superman

Zoom..

Originally posted by Starscream M
superman No.

zoom

i wud think zoom shud win

.

Zoom.

Galan's sig.

Nope Supes loses

How could zoom beat him?

Originally posted by Leobama
How could zoom beat him?
By punching him.

Without BFR Zoom has to ko Supes (not an easy task with his powerset). Supes should have advantages with his flight. He can heat up the whole battlefield area thereby burning/melting the battle field preventing Zoom from running effectively.

Or he can slow down Zooms kinetic energy in the air with his freeze powers (not likely to work if Zoom is accelerating but it can counter or impede Zoom for long enough for other powers to work. One good shot and Zoom is done. Id favor Supes more often than not.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that Supes can track Zoom and has tagged him at least on one occassion that I know of. So instead of shooting precise beams of HV he'll probably just heat up the whole area.

Originally posted by fangirl101
By punching him. Lol you've got it all figured out

Zoom.

He's essentially faster and stronger than current Supes.

Zoom is stronger than superman? I thought he was basically just a speed character.

Originally posted by Leobama
Zoom is stronger than superman? I thought he was basically just a speed character.
Wonder Woman says otherwise

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Zoom.

He's essentially faster and stronger than current Supes. Not stronger, he may be able to hit harder based on what was said, but he isn't stronger.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Wonder Woman says otherwise Wow. Is he still faster than the flash as well?

Originally posted by Leobama
Wow. Is he still faster than the flash as well?
Yes

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Zoom.

He's essentially faster and stronger than current Supes.

He's faster not stronger. Actually Supes can slow Zoom down with his freeze powers (Captain Cold can do it with his guns) and as I mentioned he's tagged Zoom before.

Since he can track Zoom all he needs is one good shot to win and I'm inclined to believe he can tag Zoom before Zoom even comes close to KO'ing him.

Originally posted by Allankles
He's faster not stronger. Actually Supes can slow Zoom down with his freeze powers (Captain Cold can do it with his guns) and as I mentioned he's tagged Zoom before.

Since he can track Zoom all he needs is one good shot to win and I'm inclined to believe he can tag Zoom before Zoom even comes close to KO'ing him. Has Captain Cold done it to Zoom, that trick should only work on speedsters, Zoom isn't really a speedster.

Originally posted by Mindset
Has Captain Cold done it to Zoom, that trick should only work on speedsters, Zoom isn't really a speedster.

Well I know Captain Cold slowed down a guy with Zoom's powerset (Inertia) after Zoom had given him his time displacement powers to become a speedster again.

Zoom.

But that Wonder Woman instance certainly doesn't prove that he hits harder than Superman when he goes all-out.

Originally posted by Allankles
He's faster not stronger. Actually Supes can slow Zoom down with his freeze powers (Captain Cold can do it with his guns) and as I mentioned he's tagged Zoom before.

Since he can track Zoom all he needs is one good shot to win and I'm inclined to believe he can tag Zoom before Zoom even comes close to KO'ing him.

Doesnt zoom have near superman level punches? IF so then considering he moves ahead of the time stream or whatever, koing supes woudnt be extremely hard.

Originally posted by Allankles
Without BFR Zoom has to ko Supes (not an easy task with his powerset). Supes should have advantages with his flight. He can heat up the whole battlefield area thereby burning/melting the battle field preventing Zoom from running effectively. Considering the fact that a PIS-free Zoom could hit Superman millions of times before Supes could even react, it may not be as hard of a task as you think. There's also Zoom's ability to vibrate through solid matter - and if Zoom, say, vibrated his hand through Superman's head, the outcome certainly wouldn't favor big blue, rest assured.

Originally posted by Allankles
Or he can slow down Zooms kinetic energy in the air with his freeze powers (not likely to work if Zoom is accelerating but it can counter or impede Zoom for long enough for other powers to work. As if Zoom isn't faster than Superman's breath? srsly

Originally posted by Allankles
EDIT: It should also be mentioned that Supes can track Zoom and has tagged him at least on one occassion that I know of. So instead of shooting precise beams of HV he'll probably just heat up the whole area. Again, this is a PIS-free setting. If an amped Wally was incapable of tracking Zoom, Superman certainly would not be able to.

And imo, HV doesn't move nearly fast enough to hit Zoom anyway.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Doesnt zoom have near superman level punches? According to Dianna Zoom's punches hurt more.

question: if superman vibrated his molecules to the point that he was intangible, would zoom be able to track and match said vibrational frequency?

Originally posted by Raoul
question: if superman vibrated his molecules to the point that he was intangible, would zoom be able to track and match said vibrational frequency? Zoom seemed to match Flash's vibrational frequencies without much trouble.

srug

Originally posted by Galan007
Zoom seemed to match Flash's vibrational frequencies without much trouble.

srug

mhmm

Originally posted by Galan007
Considering the fact that a PIS-free Zoom could hit Superman millions of times before Supes could even react, it may not be as hard of a task as you think. There's also Zoom's ability to vibrate through solid matter - and if Zoom, say, vibrated his hand through Superman's head, the outcome certainly wouldn't favor big blue, rest assured.

Supes isn't human he has a greater sub atomic density not to mention natural cosmic armor i.e. bio aura. Also Supes has enough control over his molecules to go intangible or reduce his density. So either way you'd have to be stretching to think Zoom can vibrate his hands through his head.

If you actually think about it how can any of these characters vibrate their bodies to this extent and maintain their form without complete molecular control of thier bodies?

Putting it in those terms you realize it's probably not a viable strategy for Zoom given Supes control of his own body. Not to mention if anyone here is picking out molecules and displacing them, Supes is better equipped with his microscopic vision.

Originally posted by Galan007
As if Zoom isn't faster than Superman's breath? srsly

Reducing kinetic energy has nothing to do with speed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, this is a PIS-free setting. If an amped Wally was incapable of tracking Zoom, Superman certainly would not be able to.

Wally (last i checked) doesn't have Superman's senses. You know they guy who can "hear" electrons being displaced?

Originally posted by Galan007
And imo, HV doesn't move nearly fast enough to hit Zoom anyway.

Widely dispersed energy radiation. Not to mention flight and the ability to constantly maintain said energy output.

facepalm

Since other characters doing similar things to other characters is being brought into play (Captain Cold & Inertia)...

Flash said he would've been able to hit Zum (the white martian, all the abilities of J'onn, etc.) a thousand times before he'd even know it...but settled for one, because it was all he needed.

Now, Zoom is multiple times faster than Flash, and has already hit an Amazon 200 times before Diana could even react, just for the lulz.

Zoom also knows how to hit pressure points, and can react faster than Supes due to the nature of his powers.

No PIS, forum rules, Supes gets dropped hard.

Originally posted by Allankles
Without BFR Zoom has to ko Supes (not an easy task with his powerset). Supes should have advantages with his flight. He can heat up the whole battlefield area thereby burning/melting the battle field preventing Zoom from running effectively.

Or he can slow down Zooms kinetic energy in the air with his freeze powers (not likely to work if Zoom is accelerating but it can counter or impede Zoom for long enough for other powers to work. One good shot and Zoom is done. Id favor Supes more often than not.

EDIT: It should also be mentioned that Supes can track Zoom and has tagged him at least on one occassion that I know of. So instead of shooting precise beams of HV he'll probably just heat up the whole area. Co-sign.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Since other characters doing similar things to other characters is being brought into play (Captain Cold & Inertia)...

Flash said he would've been able to hit Zum (the white martian, all the abilities of J'onn, etc.) a thousand times before he'd even know it...but settled for one, because it was all he needed.

Now, Zoom is multiple times faster than Flash, and has already hit an Amazon 200 times before Diana could even react, just for the lulz.

Zoom also knows how to hit pressure points, and can react faster than Supes due to the nature of his powers.

No PIS, forum rules, Supes gets dropped hard.

How about flight?. Increasing the ambient energy of their surroundings? Reducing kinetic energy all around them to the point where Zoom actually has to battle against energy reduction slowing him?

Supes doesn't have to make it easy for Zoom to tag him, in fact he can screw with Zooms speed given his power set and then hurt him with energy radiation.

Originally posted by Allankles
How about flight?. Increasing the ambient energy of their surroundings? Reducing kinetic energy all around them to the point where Zoom actually has to battle against energy reduction slowing him?

Supes doesn't have to make it easy for Zoom to tag him, in fact he can screw with Zooms speed given his power set and then hurt him with energy radiation.

Flight doesn't matter when you get hit before even thinking about taking off into the air. In Flash 201 (I think), Flash and Zoom end up circling the globe a dozen times in a second, or something. Wally notes that he's seen plenty of his friends (and Superman is shown) but that none of them would be any help to him. They were too fast for everyone else to be of any use whatsoever.

And as far as the rest of it goes, in WW 214 Diana notes that Zoom was flickering in and out of the present time, ghostlike, like he wasn't really there. If anyone has scans, be my guest. I'm at work otherwise I'd do it myself.

But that's how Zoom's powers work - the whole HV, etc, doesn't matter - because of his ability to simply not be there. Not to mention that he can vibrate through any attack Superman, by some miracle, manages to launch - where it be HV or punches. And as far as his freeze breath...come on. Its compressed air. Zoom would outrun that.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Flight doesn't matter when you get hit before even thinking about taking off into the air. In Flash 201 (I think), Flash and Zoom end up circling the globe a dozen times in a second, or something. Wally notes that he's seen plenty of his friends (and Superman is shown) but that none of them would be any help to him. They were too fast for everyone else to be of any use whatsoever.

And as far as the rest of it goes, in WW 214 Diana notes that Zoom was flickering in and out of the present time, ghostlike, like he wasn't really there. If anyone has scans, be my guest. I'm at work otherwise I'd do it myself.

But that's how Zoom's powers work - the whole HV, etc, doesn't matter - because of his ability to simply not be there. Not to mention that he can vibrate through any attack Superman, by some miracle, manages to launch - where it be HV or punches. And as far as his freeze breath...come on. Its compressed air. Zoom would outrun that.

Everything you said was spot on (except it was Flash #200, not #201,) but I'm just nitpicking.

And I could post scans, but what's the point with this guy?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Flight doesn't matter when you get hit before even thinking about taking off into the air. In Flash 201 (I think), Flash and Zoom end up circling the globe a dozen times in a second, or something. Wally notes that he's seen plenty of his friends (and Superman is shown) but that none of them would be any help to him. They were too fast for everyone else to be of any use whatsoever.

And as far as the rest of it goes, in WW 214 Diana notes that Zoom was flickering in and out of the present time, ghostlike, like he wasn't really there. If anyone has scans, be my guest. I'm at work otherwise I'd do it myself.

But that's how Zoom's powers work - the whole HV, etc, doesn't matter - because of his ability to simply not be there. Not to mention that he can vibrate through any attack Superman, by some miracle, manages to launch - where it be HV or punches. And as far as his freeze breath...come on. Its compressed air. Zoom would outrun that.

Supes is fast enough surely to take flight. Remember he knows Zoom's powerset and vice versa.

Freezebreath works because the forces giving Zoom's body his power (potential and kinetic energy) are expressed as heat energy in living things.

Supes need only affect the heat in his surroundings this will therefore affect the amount of energy Zoom has, as he'll have to willfully fight against energy reduction even as the finite energies within him are lost to the environment in the form of heat.

So it's a lose lose for Zoom as long as he's around Supes. Supes doesn't need to hit Zoom directly he can affect their surroundings.

EDIT: I take back what I said. Supes can heat Zoom directly with freezebreath if he surprises him with the attack the first time. Remember Zoom has no way of seeing the freezebreath coming unless he had prior warning or if Supes left a trail of frozen moisture for him to see.

Umm, you can't reduce Zoom's personal kinetic energy.

Same reason Flash can't speed steal him.

Originally posted by Galan007

Again, this is a PIS-free setting. If an amped Wally was incapable of tracking Zoom, Superman certainly would not be able to.

And imo, HV doesn't move nearly fast enough to hit Zoom anyway.

I wanted to clear this up Supes has extra sensory powers that Wally doesn't have. In fact Zoom, Wally et al can be blind sided in ways Superman can't.

Superman can "hear" the inaudible. So it's quite possible for Wally to be stamped tying to track Zoom while Supes is not. Wally needs to rely on sight and his ability to track Zoom is dependent on whether he's "lucky" enough to spot Zoom in that scenario.

Supes can "hear" Zoom and know which direction he's coming from. That's why it's quite possible for Supes to tag Zoom with his freezebreath.

Zoom has to rely on sight, Supes can easily disguise his freezbreath and time Zoom at optimum range. Also remember Zoom doesn't have microscopic vision either, so if he doesn't see a trail of frozen moisture he's a goner.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Umm, you can't reduce Zoom's personal kinetic energy.

Same reason Flash can't speed steal him.

Inertia used Zoom's own powers against him to make him powerless and return him to his crippled original self. Inertia tried to blitz Captain Cold and got screwed when he was caught by Col's cold field.

It's a matter of heat energy not pure Kinetic energy like Flash's speed force tricks.

Heat energy is the key, this is how the k energy is manifested in living things this is how the energy is translated and Supes can manipulate that.

Also remember these speedster types don't have Kal El's extra sensory powers so they are susceptible to attacks that can be disguised or that don't leave an immediately obvious visible trail.

One point that I will grant Allankles is that, especially after "Up, Up, and Away," Supes' thought speed seems superior to Flash's.

Still, you can't track what isn't there.

I got a question. Cant Superman just destroy the continent or earth and Zoom would die

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I got a question. Cant Superman just destroy the continent or earth and Zoom would die

yes, but he's incredibly unlikely to do that...

OP specified that Supes can't do that here, anyway, so the point is moot.

Originally posted by Enyalus
One point that I will grant Allankles is that, especially after "Up, Up, and Away," Supes' thought speed seems superior to Flash's. Yes, but what that guy can't seem to comprehend is that even an amped Flash couldn't begin track Zoom, let alone think/react fast enough to simply guard himself. And if anyone honestly believes Superman can think/react faster than an amped Flash, then I feel sorry for them. Truly.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Still, you can't track what isn't there. Exactly. It's not that hard to understand, really.

Originally posted by Galan007
if anyone honestly believes Superman can think/react faster than an amped Flash, then I feel sorry for them. Truly.

orly

There's nothing Zoom can do to hurt Superman.

Originally posted by complexbrother
There's nothing Zoom can do to hurt Superman.

When Superman is able to one-shot Diana into another country, you let me know.

Originally posted by complexbrother
There's nothing Zoom can do to hurt Superman.

Other than hit him with 300 light speed punches before he can even think?

Originally posted by Raoul
orly















I've felt sorry for you for a long time. peaches

Originally posted by complexbrother
There's nothing Zoom can do to hurt Superman. facepalm

Originally posted by complexbrother
There's nothing Zoom can do to hurt Superman.

Originally posted by complexbrother
There's nothing Zoom can do to hurt Superman. Lulz.

We all Zoom hit WW harder then Superman has hit her, but that doesn't mean that Zoom is stronger!!

Zoom got one shotted by Earth 2 Superman in Infinite Crisis. Just so ya know

Hmm, I don't remember that right off hand - but even if it did happen, in the very same series Black Adam beat Amazo by simply pulling his head off. none

It's called PIS, dude.

Originally posted by Galan007
Hmm, I don't remember that right off hand - but even if it did happen, in the very same series Black Adam beat Amazo by simply pulling his head off. none

It's called PIS, dude.
Technically it still counts

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Technically it still counts Per the "no PIS" rule of KMC... No, it doesn't.

Err, you are right!

Originally posted by Galan007
Hmm, I don't remember that right off hand

Neither do I.



EDIT: Ah, IC #7. Zoom is dodging Power Girl when Kal-L comes in and hits him once (blind-sided him.) It doesn't show Zoom down for good, though. Just that he was hit.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Other than hit him with 300 light speed punches before he can even think?

first of all Zoom isn't moving at light speed he is moving in faster in time relative to everything around him. second 300 punches from a normal human hand (normal human fragility, unless someone can prove Zoom has superhman durability and strength stats) on an invunerable body would end up as a pulped hand and no damage done to Supes.

Powers...
Personal Time Manipulation: ability to alter time relative to himself, as opposed to utilizing the Speed Force like most of the DC Universe speedsters do. He can apparently use this ability to move at "speeds" rivaling those of even Wally West, fastest of the Flashes, and usually, "faster" than the speeds that even Wally can muster in most cases. Since Zoom isn't actually moving at superspeed (rather, he is greatly slowing down Time relative to himself, and can make himself so "fast" that even most of the Flashes look to him to be moving in slow motion.) The temporal nature of his speed allows him to avoid the usual problems encountered by other Flash-type speedsters (friction, seeing and hearing at such near-light speeds, et al), whose automatic and unconscious use of the Speed Force overcomes those problems. As he is moving at a normal velocity, and the rest of the world is "slow", those hindrances simply do not affect him. This aspect also means that he is unable to become intangible like other speedsters can by vibrating their molecules at certain frequencies, giving them a distinct advantage

Originally posted by complexbrother
first of all Zoom isn't moving at light speed he is moving in faster in time relative to everything around him. second 300 punches from a normal human hand (normal human fragility, unless someone can prove Zoom has superhman durability and strength stats) on an invunerable body would end up as a pulped hand and no damage done to Supes.
.....He has punched the hell out of wonderwoman and superman....

Originally posted by complexbrother
I have absolutely no clue what Zoom's powerset is, so I'm just going to post a bio and act like I know what's going on. dur Fixed.

funny but no.

I seriously doubt Zoom's hands were hurting when he was doing this:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8290/zoomsl5.jpg

Originally posted by Allankles
How about flight?. Increasing the ambient energy of their surroundings? Reducing kinetic energy all around them to the point where Zoom actually has to battle against energy reduction slowing him?

Supes doesn't have to make it easy for Zoom to tag him, in fact he can screw with Zooms speed given his power set and then hurt him with energy radiation.

Ahem, has superman ever performed any of the above said manoevres?

Superman will win in the end, just like he always does.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but nobody on DC Earth beats Superman. peaches

Originally posted by batdude123
Superman will win in the end, just like he always does.

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but nobody on DC Earth beats Superman. peaches

This isn't a DC published comic. The PIS that Superman needs to beat Zoom doesn't come into play here.

Originally posted by Enyalus
This isn't a DC published comic. The PIS that Superman needs to beat Zoom doesn't come into play here.

Unless you want to call nearly everything Superman has done PIS, I'd revise that statement if I were you.

Originally posted by batdude123
Unless you want to call nearly everything Superman has done PIS, I'd revise that statement if I were you.

Say please.

It's not me who's looking like the jackass here. haw-som

Originally posted by batdude123
It's not me who's looking like the jackass here. haw-som Just a fanboy. biscuits

Originally posted by batdude123
It's not me who's looking like the jackass here. ~awe-som~ You always look like a jackass.

Originally posted by Galan007
Just a fanboy. biscuits
Like you...wavey

Originally posted by batdude123
It's not me who's looking like the jackass here. haw-som

Superman doesn't beat Zoom without PIS.


That's about as plain as I can make my statement.

Originally posted by Galan007
Just a fanboy. biscuits

Fanboy = stating facts?

Originally posted by I'm Bran
You always look like a jackass.

Shut your hole, wing chung.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Superman doesn't beat Zoom without PIS.


That's about as plain as I can make my statement.

Superman beats any and everything with his right hand.

Pun intended.

Wang Chung

iirc

It's all the same to us North Americans.

Originally posted by batdude123
Superman beats any and everything with his right hand.

Pun intended.

What good is Lois?

Originally posted by Enyalus
What good is Lois?

She cleans up afterward.

Originally posted by Starscream M
superman


how?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I'm an idiot...wavey Fixed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Fixed.

*high-fives*

Supes.

Bizarro and Zoom were neck in neck in a race and Supes is FASTER than Bizarro.

If what I've heard is true, Zoom has lost to WW.
While Zoom has hit Supes..it was more an annoyance as Supes wasn't hurt.

Originally posted by Avlon
Supes.

Bizarro and Zoom were neck in neck in a race and Supes is FASTER than Bizarro.


thats crap cuz zoom is faster then wally everyime they go at it

Originally posted by jalek moye
thats crap cuz zoom is faster then wally everyime they go at it

How many herald levelers has Zoom KO'd or beaten?

How is his track record compared to Supes?

Originally posted by Avlon
How many herald levelers has Zoom KO'd or beaten?

How is his track record compared to Supes?

i was talking about him tying with bizzaro in a race. i never said hed win just that hes haster then bizzaro by a lot

Originally posted by Avlon
Bizarro and Zoom were neck in neck in a race and Supes is FASTER than Bizarro.

He still won the race. And was yapping at Bizarro the whole time to run in a straight line. I seriously, seriously doubt he was going all out.

And if we're going to do crap like that - Flash has beaten Supes in a race before (more than once - Flash 200something and JLA 59 come to mind). And Zoom runs fast enough to appear invisible to Wally (IE, multiple times faster.)

Can't take low-end feats in which Zoom was probably holding back anyway.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He still won the race.

Never claimed he didn't.

And was yapping at Bizarro the whole time to run in a straight line. I seriously, seriously doubt he was going all out.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And if we're going to do crap like that - Flash has beaten Supes in a race before (more than once - Flash 200something and JLA 59 come to mind). And Zoom runs fast enough to appear invisible to Wally (IE, multiple times faster.)

Never said Supes was faster. Now fast enough to tag Wally in a fight..definitely.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Can't take low-end feats in which Zoom was probably holding back anyway.

Probably is the key word. Storyline never said so though.

Now who has Zoom defeated in a fight on Supes level?

Originally posted by Avlon
Never said Supes was faster. Now fast enough to tag Wally in a fight..definitely.

I agree.

Originally posted by Avlon
Now who has Zoom defeated in a fight on Supes level?

I ask this with trepidation: what do you consider Supes' level to be?

Originally posted by Avlon
Supes. I'm shocked. none

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm shocked. none

The same could be said for someone with Zoom in his sig.

Originally posted by Avlon
Never claimed he didn't.

And was yapping at Bizarro the whole time to run in a straight line. I seriously, seriously doubt he was going all out.



Never said Supes was faster. Now fast enough to tag Wally in a fight..definitely.



Probably is the key word. Storyline never said so though.

Now who has Zoom defeated in a fight on Supes level?


mabey since zoom is not written about as much, mabey thats why he dont have the feats like supes . But in close combat. Supes goes down very hard unless hes sundipped. Everytime.

Originally posted by jalek moye
thats crap cuz zoom is faster then wally everyime they go at it

ITs called SHITTY writting Zoom should never have any trouble raceing bizzaro and everyone in this foum knows it. Supes is not even compareable to zoom in speed. Its not even close. Supes gets speedblitz's here.

Supes slower then wally next comic wally much slower then zoom, next comic zoom struggling to race bizarro next comic supes faster then bizarro. ITs shitty writting quit using theses examples of supes being able to beat zoom. Wally himself has said that unless he himself borrows someone els's speed, zoom at times is nothing more then a blurr to him. And wally himself is much faster then supes. They are not compareable, its not even close. And when zoom is blitzing at that speed hell yeah thoses punches are going to hurt.

Originally posted by Avlon
How many herald levelers has Zoom KO'd or beaten?

How is his track record compared to Supes?

More crap, you damm good and well know zoom is not written, niether is flash as a main hero/anti hero they are back ground heros/antiheros and do not get the spot light like supes does. Feats represent NOTHING in this fight and you know it. That's like saying that the new marvel (shazam and captian marvel combo) would loose a fight to supes do to lack of feats.


feats are a measuring pole nothing more they do not insure a win. Especially in this case.

Originally posted by batdude123
The same could be said for someone with Zoom in his sig. Because I'm the only person who's said Zoom would take this, right?

Just because I like Zoom, doesn't mean I'd argue baselessly on his behalf.

Originally posted by zeel
More crap, you damm good and well know zoom is not written, niether is flash as a main hero/anti hero they are back ground heros/antiheros and do not get the spot light like supes does. Feats represent NOTHING in this fight and you know it. That's like saying that the new marvel (shazam and captian marvel combo) would loose a fight to supes do to lack of feats.


feats are a measuring pole nothing more they do not insure a win. Especially in this case.

It's a valid question. Yes Zoom doesn't have nearly the same number of appearances. But I think you're reaching thinking Zoom can KO Supes easily. First of all you're ignoring the factors that make Supes durable in the first place, like having a sub atomic density far higher than Zoom's, not to mention cosmic armor and complete molecular control of his body.

Originally posted by Allankles
It's a valid question. Yes Zoom doesn't have nearly the same number of appearances. But I think you're reaching thinking Zoom can KO Supes easily. First of all you're ignoring the factors that make Supes durable in the first place, like having a sub atomic density far higher than Zoom's, not to mention cosmic armor and complete molecular control of his body.

How do the individual factors themselves that account for supes durability prove that he cant KO supes? They all contribute to the totality of his durability and that is what zoom has to overcome. Considerng that his punches were compared to supermans punches then with enough of them he can certainly ko him.

Originally posted by Naija boy
How do the individual factors themselves that account for supes durability prove that he cant KO supes? They all contribute to the totality of his durability and that is what zoom has to overcome. Considerng that his punches were compared to supermans punches then with enough of them he can certainly ko him.

First of all how durable is Zoom? Not everything mentioned by characters is accurate. The Flashes have the Speed Force which protects their relative fragile bodies from being ripped apart from the speeds they attain. I just don't buy the idea that Zoom's punches are going to drop Supesi.e. if we take Supes at his peak durability.

Also where as Zoom needs Kal El to be a standing target for him to have chance Kal El can potentially freeze him, burn him or suffocate him with super breath by creating an air vaccum in their surroundings.

Not to mention he can rip apart the BF with widely dispersed energy radiation.

Zoom only wins under one scenario that Supes isn't fast enough to take flight or that Supes isn't fast enough to drill a hole in the battlefield to get away from Zoom at close quarters. That Supes can't possible "hear" or sense Zoom coming and surprise him with his air or freeze powers.

Basically everything has to fall perfectly in place for Zoom for him to win. That's why I give Supes 7/10 here.

Originally posted by Allankles
Also where as Zoom needs Kal El to be a standing target for him to have chance Kal El can potentially freeze him, burn him or suffocate him with super breath by creating an air vaccum in their surroundings.

Why does Zoom need Kal to be a standing target? He's many times over faster than Superman. Easily.

Originally posted by Allankles
Zoom only wins under one scenario that Supes isn't fast enough to take flight or that Supes isn't fast enough to drill a hole in the battlefield to get away from Zoom at close quarters. That Supes can't possible "hear" or sense Zoom coming and surprise him with his air or freeze powers.

They start .5 km apart. Amped Flash was able to accelerate to light speed instantly and Zoom still appeared as a blur to him.

You know how quickly Zoom would cross that .5 km gap??

50mph?

Zoom

Note to self: simply give information from now on - never ask for it.




lol

Okay, these are from Trinity #31.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/DC/DC%20Scans/th_Untitled-Scanned-01-3.jpghttp://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/DC/DC%20Scans/th_Untitled-Scanned-02-5.jpghttp://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/DC/DC%20Scans/th_Untitled-Scanned-03-3.jpghttp://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/DC/DC%20Scans/th_Untitled-Scanned-04-1.jpg

How far behind in continuity is Trinity?

Originally posted by Mindset
How far behind in continuity is Trinity? It's either current or after FC. I've seen conflicting statements and opinions.

There's a huge problem if it's post FC. Namely, how did Zoom get repowered?

Originally posted by Allankles
First of all how durable is Zoom? Not everything mentioned by characters is accurate. The Flashes have the Speed Force which protects their relative fragile bodies from being ripped apart from the speeds they attain. I just don't buy the idea that Zoom's punches are going to drop Supesi.e. if we take Supes at his peak durability.

Also where as Zoom needs Kal El to be a standing target for him to have chance Kal El can potentially freeze him, burn him or suffocate him with super breath by creating an air vaccum in their surroundings.

Not to mention he can rip apart the BF with widely dispersed energy radiation.

Zoom only wins under one scenario that Supes isn't fast enough to take flight or that Supes isn't fast enough to drill a hole in the battlefield to get away from Zoom at close quarters. That Supes can't possible "hear" or sense Zoom coming and surprise him with his air or freeze powers.

Basically everything has to fall perfectly in place for Zoom for him to win. That's why I give Supes 7/10 here.

Zooms body was obviously not ripped apart when he punched the hell out of wonderwoman so that happening here is a non issue. Wonderwoman said that he hits harder than superman but even if we were to say she exxagerated and he doesnt punch harder than superman, it is obvious that the intent of the statment was to indicate that zoom had punching power comparable to top class 100 level characters. He therefore doesnt have to punch even as hard as superman in order to ko him.

Also from all indications and from what ive read on the character, Zoom doesnt need clark to be a standing target but rather, Clark will be a standing target regardless. Hell he was only a blur to the flash.

also i doubt supes will be able to hear zoom coming, because (and galan should please correct me if im wrong), zoom operates ahead of the time stream supes would be in. With that there is no way supes would even be able to sense him let alone react quickly enough.

True if supes takes to the air the fight is probably over but i doubt supes will be able to do that before getting pounded into submission .

Originally posted by Enyalus


Why does Zoom need Kal to be a standing target? He's many times over faster than Superman. Easily.

Obviously because if Supes takes flight or goes underground Zoom has no chance of reaching him.


Originally posted by Enyalus
They start .5 km apart. Amped Flash was able to accelerate to light speed instantly and Zoom still appeared as a blur to him.

You know how quickly Zoom would cross that .5 km gap??

Back to the whole perception thing. Flash has no extra sensory powers if Zoom is using time manip on himself Flash no matter how fast he propels himself has no way of tracking him except through sight.

Zoom has also the same weakness he cannot react to what he doesn't anticipate through sight. If Supes "hears" Zoom coming he can easily disguise his freeze powers.

2) Supes has enough speed to leave the ground or go underground, that's a much shorter distance than the gap between he and Zoom at the start of the battle. Zoom can be fast enough that Supes appears to move in slow motion but is he fast enough to stop Supes from flying over a short distance? Supes may be slow relative to Zoom but he's fast enough to take flight before Zoom gets to him IMO.

As far as durability goes WW was able to take his punches and she's not as durable as Supes.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Zooms body was obviously not ripped apart when he punched the hell out of wonderwoman so that happening here is a non issue. Wonderwoman said that he hits harder than superman but even if we were to say she exxagerated and he doesnt punch harder than superman, it is obvious that the intent of the statment was to indicate that zoom had punching power comparable to top class 100 level characters. He therefore doesnt have to punch even as hard as superman in order to ko him.

Also from all indications and from what ive read on the character, Zoom doesnt need clark to be a standing target but rather, Clark will be a standing target regardless. Hell he was only a blur to the flash.

also i doubt supes will be able to hear zoom coming, because (and galan should please correct me if im wrong), zoom operates ahead of the time stream supes would be in. With that there is no way supes would even be able to sense him let alone react quickly enough.

True if supes takes to the air the fight is probably over but i doubt supes will be able to do that before getting pounded into submission .

He doesn't zoom through some time stream tunnel, he is very much within normal time he only manipulates time around his body. With that in mind there's no reason why Supes couldn't sense someone moving through normal time. WW also has some extra sensory powers as she's able to track the flashes when they're using the speedforce. Again Supes doesn't have Wally's limitations with regards to perception.

If he punches hard then I'm going to have to just suspend my belief no point debating that point since he isn't even hard enough, durable enough to do damage based on his physical stats. Unless he manips his body to deliver punches harder, he doesn't really move "fast" like the Flashes or have the speed force for an IMP.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because I'm the only person who's said Zoom would take this, right?

Just because I like Zoom, doesn't mean I'd argue baselessly on his behalf.

That's the spirit.

Tell him to go f*ck himself aswell.

while i think zoom is more than capable of beating clark, i think the opposite applies as well...

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm shocked. none

Batdude got to you first ZOOM sig.

Originally posted by zeel
More crap, you damm good and well know zoom is not written, niether is flash as a main hero/anti hero they are back ground heros/antiheros and do not get the spot light like supes does. Feats represent NOTHING in this fight and you know it. That's like saying that the new marvel (shazam and captian marvel combo) would loose a fight to supes do to lack of feats.

Is that why E2 Supes (who Supes matched head on) easily took out Zoom, and although Zoom has suckerpunched Kal, he was nothing more than an annoyance?


Originally posted by zeel
feats are a measuring pole nothing more they do not insure a win. Especially in this case.

Did Zoom beat WW who is Supes inferior in everything but fighting skill?

Must be why that year in 52 where Supes/WW/Bats took a break, ZOOM saved the wor...eh.. guess not.

when did E2 supes easily took out zoom??i would love to see that fight..

Infinite crisis. Wasn't much of a fight.

Infinite crisis i have those..but i don't see E2 supes beating zoom in there..the only time i see them fighting is in one small panel where powergirl, supes and a couple of other hero try to punch him..but they didn't even hit him..

Originally posted by Avlon
Batdude got to you first ZOOM sig. Yeah, he sure "got me" alright. lulz.

Anyway, in a PIS-free environment, Zoom wins .

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, he sure "got me" alright. lulz.

No, he "got to you" first. One word missing, totally different context. LULZ.

Originally posted by Galan007
Anyway, in a PIS-free environment, Zoom wins .



Let me know when Zoom does anything of true merit that elevates him to Superman's high feats. Oh, that's right, he doesn't compare. Plus those few times that he has (and been nothing more than an annoyance to him/them) are considered the "PIS" times.

No problem.

Originally posted by Allankles
He doesn't zoom through some time stream tunnel, he is very much within normal time he only manipulates time around his body. With that in mind there's no reason why Supes couldn't sense someone moving through normal time. WW also has some extra sensory powers as she's able to track the flashes when they're using the speedforce. Again Supes doesn't have Wally's limitations with regards to perception.

If he punches hard then I'm going to have to just suspend my belief no point debating that point since he isn't even hard enough, durable enough to do damage based on his physical stats. Unless he manips his body to deliver punches harder, he doesn't really move "fast" like the Flashes or have the speed force for an IMP.

Well from what ive heard from Galan) and i trust his opinion), Zoom does operate ahead of the current time stream. There is a scan where it is even explained. So superman hearing him coming or whatever simply isnt happening. Further even if superman did hear him coming, it would do him absolutely no good as he would be unable to react regardless. HAvin the most keen hearing or vision wont help you if u cant move ur body fast enough to get out of the way.

Zoom showed that he does infact punch very hard reardless of his physical stats. That fact was proven on panel and cant be rationalized away.

Originally posted by Avlon
Plus those few times that he has (and been nothing more than an annoyance to him/them) are considered the "PIS" times. Ahh, so when Supes gets tagged by a character >>> Flash, it's PIS now?

Originally posted by Avlon
Let me know when Zoom does anything of true merit that elevates him to Superman's high feats. "Anything of true merit"






facepalm

Originally posted by Naija boy
Well from what ive heard from Galan) and i trust his opinion), Zoom does operate ahead of the current time stream. There is a scan where it is even explained.

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/146/zoom1zg4.th.jpg

Originally posted by Naija boy
So superman hearing him coming or whatever simply isnt happening. Further even if superman did hear him coming, it would do him absolutely no good as he would be unable to react regardless. HAvin the most keen hearing or vision wont help you if u cant move ur body fast enough to get out of the way.

Zoom showed that he does infact punch very hard reardless of his physical stats. That fact was proven on panel and cant be rationalized away. I agree.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ahh, so when Supes gets tagged by a character >>> Flash, it's PIS now?

Your claim, not mine.


Originally posted by Galan007
"Anything of true merit"

No debate but possible potential. LOL






facepalm

Originally posted by Galan007
Ahh, so when Supes gets tagged by a character >>> Flash, it's PIS now?

"Anything of true merit"






facepalm



http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/146/zoom1zg4.th.jpg

I agree. I don't trust a person with a Zoom sig....mmm

Originally posted by Avlon
facepalm I agree.

Originally posted by Badabing
I don't trust a person with a Zoom sig....mmm




I wouldn't either. mhmm

Originally posted by Naija boy

Zoom showed that he does infact punch very hard reardless of his physical stats. That fact was proven on panel and cant be rationalized away.

Yeah that's the part I said I can't argue even though in truth without some kind of high level matter manip to harden his body he shouldn't be able to be more than a pest to Supes. The Flash's have the speed force excuse, what does Zoom have? Time manip?

Just doesn't add up, but for the sake of consistency I go with the feats (even though some people want to pick and choose on this - Zeel).

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree.

Well then. Looks like the matter has been resolved.

zoom for the win

Well... that was uneventful.

Originally posted by Galan007
Because I'm the only person who's said Zoom would take this, right?

Just because I like Zoom, doesn't mean I'd argue baselessly on his behalf.

I hope you didn't forget to wipe the PMS blood off your keyboard after you typed that.

So you're trying to say that Avlon's arguments are baseless? He may have an affinity towards Superman, but "baseless" is never a word I would use to describe any of his arguments.

Fatnude for the save.

Originally posted by batdude123
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the PMS blood off your keyboard after you typed that.

So you're trying to say that Avlon's arguments are baseless? He may have an affinity towards Superman, but "baseless" is never a word I would use to describe any of his arguments. avlon fanboy

Originally posted by batdude123
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the PMS blood off your keyboard after you typed that. Ahh the wit.

Originally posted by batdude123
So you're trying to say that Avlon's arguments are baseless? He may have an affinity towards Superman, but "baseless" is never a word I would use to describe any of his arguments. You misunderstand - that post had nothing to do with Avlon. Just because I had a Zoom sig, you seemed to imply (could've been wrong in this assumption) that I was only saying he would win for teh fanboi lulz. So I just wanted to make it clear that while I do like the character, I certainly wouldn't let that be the only reason (as many do) why I was debating for Zoom.



Originally posted by Mindset
avlon fanboy giggle00

Originally posted by I'm Bran
Fatnude for the save.

Hells yeah! haw-som

Originally posted by Mindset
avlon fanboy

Shut yo ass up. uhuh

Originally posted by Galan007
Ahh the wit.

You misunderstand - that post had nothing to do with Avlon. Just because I had a Zoom sig, you made it seem as though I was only choosing him for teh fanboi lulz. So I just wanted to make it clear that while I do like the character, I certainly wouldn't let that be the only reason (as many do) why I was debating for Zoom.



You're taking the high road? NOOOO!!!

Originally posted by I'm Bran
Well... that was uneventful.

The potential... it are wasted!

You're a waste.

uhuh

Funny enough, I agree with both statements.

Originally posted by Galan007
You're a waste.

uhuh Originally posted by batdude123
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the PMS blood off your keyboard after you typed that.


Originally posted by batdude123
Funny enough, I agree with both statements. As if i have to type a response to someone who's named batdude (stolen name BTW).

If that doesn't work...

Fudge you batdude you rooster sucking smokehole!












I went der. winkiss

Originally posted by I'm Bran
As if i have to type a response to someone who's named batdude (stolen name BTW).

If that doesn't work...I went der. winkiss

Reported.

Originally posted by I'm Bran
Well... that was uneventful.

Originally posted by I'm Bran

Originally posted by Galan007
You're a waste.

uhuh Originally posted by batdude123
I hope you didn't forget to wipe the PMS blood off your keyboard after you typed that.

C'mon Bran, you can do better than that. Srsly. ermm

Originally posted by Galan007
C'mon Bran, you can do better than that. Srsly. ermm I can, but it doesn't hurt to HL batdude's failure.

True. mmm

Originally posted by I'm Bran
I can, but it doesn't hurt to HL batdude's failure.

How was that a failure? The only thing that's failing in this thread is your attempts to antagonize a fight.


















































































biscuits

Bran, your post was reported before you edited. You both have been warned more than once for spamming threads and bypassing the censor.

Yeah Zoom wins now we can see a plethora of scans to prove it.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yeah Zoom wins now we can see a plethora of scans to prove it.



Now then, where to start...

With the obvious, I suppose. On Earth, in-the-atmospheric speed. Here, Supes is attempting to chase down Flash in order to get some answers. Flash is in the lead. They're both going about 2,000 miles per second:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_Supes_race1.jpg

Notice what that also says? Superman's perception (sight) is inferior to Flash's at those speeds. They hadn't adjusted to the speeds they were both going yet.

Here, Flash has the combined speed of himself, Jay, Bart, and Jesse. They're entire battle (essentially half of the comic) has lasted less than a second, in which they've circled the globe a dozen times*. Flash says none of the other heroes would be any help. They can't fight at those speeds. Supes included:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_Flash_ampedbattle.jpg
*Geek note: the circumference of the Earth is about 25,000 miles.

This is made pretty evident in Countdown, when Zoom blitzes Batman, Superman, and Diana simultaneously:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8290/zoomsl5.jpg

Returning to his battle with the fully amped Flash...he's still able to blitz him:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_Flash_amp_blitz.jpg

Prior to this, when Wally has the combined speed of Jay and Bart and can accelerate to light speed instantaneously, Zoom is still so fast that he's a blur to Wally:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_Flash_amp_blur.jpg

To a base Wally and Jay, he's so fast when moving that he's completely invisible (he also two shots Jay here, including sending him across the city):

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_blitzes_Flashes1.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_blitzes_Flashes2.jpg

Keep in mind that this is the guy who's perception is better than Superman and, for starters dodge 1500 strikes per second easily, as well as see and dodge the vast majority of Amazo's blows thrown at Flash-like speeds even after being barely conscious:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_1500.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_1000.jpg
3. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_0.jpg
4. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_1.jpg
5. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_2.jpg
6. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_3.jpg
7. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_201_4.jpg
3-7 are just because I can.

Zoom can not only blitz opponents, but block at the same speed - as evidenced here, when he easily staves off an angry Wally's attempted blitz with one-hand:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_blitz_counter.jpg

Here's another reason why Superman's senses won't be able to follow Zoom - as I explained earlier, Zoom temporal powers allow him to simply blink in and out of the current timeline, ghostlike, with full personal control over his exploitation of the timestream itself:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_timestream1.jpg
2. http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/2088/z3dx4.jpg

This allows him to do more than just run really fast. He's got ranged attack, which are decently powerful and capable of hitting Superman even if he was in the air:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_sonicboom1.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsRogues2.jpg
3. http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/8530/z2jv3.jpg

Ah, and I should bring up that just because Superman is in the air, doesn't make him safe from a Zoom speedblitz:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_heightscaling.jpg

As for the contention that he somehow has baseline human durability, this is not true. Here he is catching a razor sharp boomerang thrown at the speed of sound, easily:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsRogues1.jpg

And:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_durability.jpg

That looked like it hurt. How will Zoom respond?

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsDiana1.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsDiana2.jpg
3. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsDiana3.jpg

A few things to mention from the above rape - Zoom can punch at at least light speed (something Superman can't come close to matching.) And according to Diana yes, he hits harder than Superman. Zoom knocks her from Boston to Paris, from Paris to Egypt, and from Egypt to China. Thousands of miles apart. Does Supes to anything similar to Diana in Sacrifice, when he isn't holding back or pulling his punches and bloodlusted? No. And it isn't a new, one-time showing for Zoom, either. In one of his first appearances he knocks Jay from New York to Dallas with one punch:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_strikingpower1.jpg

Keep in mind that Zoom was a former police officer and FBI agent, thus having governmental combat training. He knows exactly how and where nerve clusters and pressure points act and are:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_PP.jpg
2. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_PP2.jpg
In the first scan, Bart has the entire Speed Force within him.

As for the laughable notion that Superman's HV is going to make a difference, here's how Flash deals with it:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Flash_Supes_HV.jpg

And regarding Supeman's arctic breath...here's how Zoom deals with Captain Cold (absolute zero temperatures with his gun...also note lifting him off the ground one-handed from a standing position, indicating above-human natural strength):

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/ZoomvsRogues3.jpg

Not only that, but Superman's freeze breath is due to the supercompressed air in his lungs and him blowing it out. If any of you think Superman's even going to get the chance to breathe when starting out .5 km apart from each other by now, please see a therapist.

Not that it matters. In addition to him being able to simply blink out of the current time to avoid the cold or heat vision, he can vibrate intangible:

1. http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/Zoom_vibration1.jpg
2. http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3437/zoomvibrate1ie6.jpg
3. http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/6587/zoomvibrate2ew4.jpg


...That's about all the reasons I can conceivably think of why Superman has zero chance in this match. All scans courtesy of Galan and myself.

Yep that settles it Zoom is pretty much a Flash but on higher scale.