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Kyle as Ion 2
http://www.dcuguide.com/glcorps/images/ion.jpg
vs

Silver Surfer
http://www.samruby.com/Heroes/SilverSurfer/SilverSurfer.gif


Stipulations
Because Ion 2 was short lived, feats used by the GL ring will be permitted. This is the Current Silver Surfer.

Surfer. Ion just doesn't have the feats to compare.

norrin

Maybe I'm confusing this with someone else, but didn't Kyle as the second Ion, create a pocket Universe in his hand with a thought and went on to say, that there isn't anything he couldn't accomplish.

Maybe that was the original Ion.

Meh...

Originally posted by id369
In what form is Kyle outclassed?

Knowledge/Experience
Energy Output
Durability
Strength
Over all Speed
ETC… Feat-wise? All of the above.

Truth be told, Kyle didn't really do anything that a well seasoned 'standard' GL would be incapable of, imo.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Maybe I'm confusing this with someone else, but didn't Kyle as the second Ion, create a pocket Universe in his hand with a thought and went on to say, that there isn't anything he couldn't accomplish.

Maybe that was the original Ion.

Meh... Where people got the notion that Ion made a pocket universe is beyond me. If you look at what is actually happening, all he did was manipulate/contain the blast Nero discharged:

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1243389_ion0.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1243390_ion1.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1243391_ion2.jpg

srug

How the hell was I so off?

I know I read that issue only recently.



Bad.

Causes.

Originally posted by Galan007
Feat-wise? All of the above.

Truth be told, Kyle didn't really do anything that a well seasoned 'standard' GL would be incapable of, imo. But he would beat any standard GL as Ion, imo. Which is right.

I say he could beat SS, but I'm not gonna post any proof.

Originally posted by Mindset
But he would beat any standard GL as Ion, imo. Which is right. Just because you have the Ion power, doesn't mean you can automatically pwn everyone. Look at Yat for christ sake.

At any rate, yes, Kyle should have been > the other GL's as Ion. I was merely talking about feats - and his feats are decisively sub-Surfer.

Originally posted by Mindset
I say he could beat SS, but I'm not gonna post any proof. Cuz there is none? 313

Originally posted by Galan007
Just because you have the Ion power, doesn't mean you can automatically pwn everyone. Look at Yat for christ sake.

At any rate, yes, Kyle should have been > the other GL's as Ion. I was merely talking about feats - and based on feats, his are nowhere close to Surfer's.

Cuz there is none? 313 Well Yat isn't really a good example since he is horrible at everything.

I was going off Kyle easily beating Nero compared to how Hal was fighting him, not that Kyle has Ion power so he automatically is stronger than other GL's. Also it's easier to gauge Kyle compared to other GLs with Ion, since we know how he stacks up to them w/o it, same can't really be said for Yat since he has so little showings.

There are multitudes of proof that Kyle beats SS, but you don't deserve to see it. uhuh

What?

Originally posted by Mindset
Well Yat isn't really a good example since he is horrible at everything. True. mmm

Originally posted by Mindset
I was going off Kyle easily beating Nero compared to how Hal was fighting him, not that Kyle has Ion power so he automatically is stronger than other GL's. Hal didn't do bad at all against Nero, imo.

Originally posted by Mindset
There are multitudes of proof that Kyle beats SS, but you don't deserve to see it. uhuh I know one of the stipulations in this thread is that pretty much all of Kyle's feats can be used - but I'm just talking about his feats as Ion (which weren't the proverbial 'cat's meow' by any means.)

Originally posted by Galan007

Hal didn't do bad at all against Nero, imo.
I didn't say he did bad, I said Kyle did better.

Pfft..

Surfer ftw. pfft

Mindset sounds pretty confident with his answer; so I'm gonna agree and go with SS.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brien
Mindset sounds pretty confident with his answer; so I'm gonna agree and go with SS. Why you always insist on being wrong I'll never know.

Originally posted by Mindset
Why you always insist on being wrong I'll never know.

Poozers

Meh, Kyle-Ion got his ass handed to him by Grayven, and had his construct manipulated and taken over by Lia Nelson...

SS FTW.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Meh, Kyle-Ion got his ass handed to him by Grayven, and had his construct manipulated and taken over by Lia Nelson...

SS FTW. Kyle almost killed Grayven.

Originally posted by Mindset
Kyle almost killed Grayven.

Kyle got his salad tossed by Grayven while he was Ion 2. Central Battery + Starheart. Only Donna's help kept him from getting killed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Kyle got his salad tossed by Grayven while he was Ion 2. Central Battery + Starheart. Only Donna's help kept him from getting killed. Not really, the only reason he needed Donna's help was Guy distracted him.

Maybe look at the fight again.

Ya, you should probably look at the fight against tenyanus.

Ion

But seriously SS wins.

Hal > Ion 2/Kyle

Originally posted by kgkg
Hal > Ion 2/Kyle At sucking dick maybe.

SS FTW

Originally posted by Mindset
At sucking dick maybe.

dude. this is a pg-13 forum. some wiggle room is fine, but seriously, less of that. please.

If we go at what DC implied ION should be, then Ion2 FTW.

If we go by feat wars, then SS takes it.

Kyle's Ion 2 run wasn't bad, but it wasn't super-impressive either...at least not by the current feat whoring standards the forums mentally set for characters.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Kyle got his salad tossed by Grayven while he was Ion 2.

I musta missed that issue...

Originally posted by Avlon
at least not by the current feat whoring standards the forums mentally set for characters. Don't you use those 'feat whoring standards' for arguments for Superman?

Kyle isn't the best Gl either .

Originally posted by Raoul
dude. this is a pg-13 forum. some wiggle room is fine, but seriously, less of that. please. They say worse things than that in pg-13 movies.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Kyle isn't the best Gl either . You're right, he's the best superhero in general.

Originally posted by Mindset
You're right, he's the best superhero in general. How is he right? to be the best superhero he would have to be at least the best GL.

Originally posted by kgkg
How is he right? to be the best superhero he would have to be at least the best GL. Think about it.

Originally posted by Mindset
Think about it. I give up Now tell me the answer

Sorry, that's cheating.

Originally posted by kgkg
I give up Now tell me the answer

Poozer

B.U.M.P.

Surfer wins.

Seriously is Kyle outclassed by Norrin despite the Ion symbiote, and a GL ring?

Considering kyle with the gl ring created several green lanterns out of thin air including a daxamite and one that could use the speed force I don't see surfer doing all that well,hell kyle also created oblivion someone who can pull stars and black holes out of his ass and was going to end the universe.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Considering kyle with the gl ring created several green lanterns out of thin air including a daxamite and one that could use the speed force I don't see surfer doing all that well,hell kyle also created oblivion someone who can pull stars and black holes out of his ass and was going to end the universe. He was drawing on Ion power, that was a few comics before he became Ion, the first time.

So hes drawing on the ion power when fighting oblivion despite the ion force never coming into existence until after oblivion combines with parallaxes energy....might wanna rethink that.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
So hes drawing on the ion power when fighting oblivion despite the ion force never coming into existence until after oblivion combines with parallaxes energy....might wanna rethink that. I meant drawing on the parrallax energies, either way, he did not do these feats with just his ring, you might want to rethink that.

And? parallax left barely any power and here he gets to draw upon the ion force and the OP said any ring feat is permitted so again kyle stomps and you have no point.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
And? parallax left barely any power and here he gets to draw upon the ion force and the OP said any ring feat is permitted so again kyle stomps and you have no point. Except he was only able to do it because he was drawing on the left over energy from parallax.

In this fight he does not have that energy, nor does he have the energy from Oblivion.

He only has the feats he did in the 12 comic series as Ion. And regular Kyle, ofc.

Any ring feat is permitted it was never said that he was drawing on parallaxes power during his fight with oblivion and again he has a large power force to draw on here.

Any ring feat, not any ring feat that only was made possible because of his drawing on parrallax energies.

Except the wording kyle uses never even hints at him using that power before oblivion megres with it,if you have some actual proof he did go right ahead but until then the feat can be chalked up to kyle having a special ring made by the dying energy of several guardians.

What was special about his ring besides it not needing to be recharged?

Again made by the energies of several guardians and obviously being more powerful then a regular ring seeing what he did with it,oblivion himself outright says kyles ring is the greatest ring ever made,seriously there is absolutely 0 evidence of kyle using parallaxes power to create those green lanterns or oblivion and I think oblivion would know what energy he is created from.

The feats you're talking about, Vlaaad, occured prior to him even being Classic Ion. Let alone Ion 2, who seemed much weaker than Classic Ion, even though he should have been stronger, considering he had the Oan Power and the Starheart.


Surfer wins.

Originally posted by vlaaad12345
Again made by the energies of several guardians and obviously being more powerful then a regular ring seeing what he did with it,oblivion himself outright says kyles ring is the greatest ring ever made,seriously there is absolutely 0 evidence of kyle using parallaxes power to create those green lanterns or oblivion and I think oblivion would know what energy he is created from. That didn't answer my question.

ion 2 wins

Well, it kind of answered it, tbh I didn't read it until now.

Originally posted by shokosugi
ion 2 wins How?

teh bump

Any version of Ion or Parallax would demolish Surfer

That includes Kyle as Parallax and Sodam Yat

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Any version of Ion or Parallax would demolish Surfer

That includes Kyle as Parallax and Sodam Yat

Dude, sodam yat?

Cosmic awareness + lead weakness...

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Dude, sodam yat?

Cosmic awareness + lead weakness... Surfer doesnt have cosmic awareness, if I recall it took him a while to figure out that Hulk was powered off gamma radiation

Beside the ring prevents the spread of lead through Yat's body

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Dude, sodam yat?

Cosmic awareness + lead weakness...
Doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Doesn't work that way. yes it does.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Doesn't work that way.

Yes, yes it does.

No it doesnt, Surfer wouldnt be able to sense Sodam weakness to lead and even if he could it wouldnt help him since the ring protects him from lead poisoning

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
No it doesnt, Surfer wouldnt be able to sense Sodam weakness to lead and even if he could it wouldnt help him since the ring protects him from lead poisoning
Like it did when he fought Prime, am I right?


This isn't Sodam, anyway. It's Kyle.

Don't the majority of people on Daxam know about their weakness to lead? If so forum rules about basic knowledge say that Surfer begins the fight knowing about the lead allergy even if his Cosmic Awareness couldn't detect it(which it can).

Not that it matters since this is Kyle...

^ As you say, Sodam Yat isn't involved, but interesting point on the application of common knowledge. Assuming that Daxamites are aware of their weakness to lead, I'm not sure that would necessarily apply in a KMC vs. fight. Sodam Yat doesn't seem to identify Daxam as his homeworld since he hates Daxam's culture. Indeed, he operates throughout different sectors and has no home, save for Oa. In a similar manner, Silver Surfer operates throughout the universe and mostly on Earth, despite Zenn-La having historically been his "homeworld."

But in most threads, we measure basic knowledge of Surfer on what the Earth population knows of him and to a certain extent, what the universe's population knows of him since he is so well-known as a Herald of Galactus. We don't really use what Zenn La knows of Surfer for the common knowledge rule. Similarly, I don't think using Daxam planet's knowledge is appropriate when applying the common knowledge rule here. To illustrate my point, consider this: Everybody on Zenn-La knew that Norrin Radd sacrificed himself to save the planet when Galactus came. But do Superman or Darkseid or Majestic know that Surfer's real name is Norrin Radd per the common knowledge rule?

I mean, do characters like Ronan or Super-Skrull even know Surfer's true name? To my understanding, common knowledge helps put characters from other companies on a more even basis for purposes of an intercompany fight. But the way Daxam and Zenn-La are Sodam's and Surfer's homeworlds respectively, I don't think using those homeworlds as a basis for common knowledge serves the spirit of the rule. Thoughts?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But the way Daxam and Zenn-La are Sodam's and Surfer's homeworlds respectively, I don't think using those homeworlds as a basis for common knowledge serves the spirit of the rule. Thoughts?
I agree, I think.

What the majority of the GLC knows about Sodam should come into play under the common knowledge rule, since that's where he mostly is, not Daxam. Likewise, the Earth should be the 'knowledge bar' so to speak for measuring what opponents know about Surfer per common knowledge, not Zenn-La.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ As you say, Sodam Yat isn't involved, but interesting point on the application of common knowledge. Assuming that Daxamites are aware of their weakness to lead, I'm not sure that would necessarily apply in a KMC vs. fight. Sodam Yat doesn't seem to identify Daxam as his home world since he hates Daxam's culture. Indeed, he operates throughout different sectors and has no home, save for Oa. In a similar manner, Silver Surfer operates throughout the universe and mostly on Earth, despite Zenn-La having historically been his "home world."

But in most threads, we measure basic knowledge of Surfer on what the Earth population knows of him and to a certain extent, what the universe's population knows of him since he is so well-known as a Herald of Galactus. We don't really use what Zenn La knows of Surfer for the common knowledge rule. Similarly, I don't think using Daxam planet's knowledge is appropriate when applying the common knowledge rule here. To illustrate my point, consider this: Everybody on Zenn-La knew that Norrin Radd sacrificed himself to save the planet when Galactus came. But do Superman or Darkseid or Majestic know that Surfer's real name is Norrin Radd per the common knowledge rule?

I mean, do characters like Ronan or Super-Skrull even know Surfer's true name? To my understanding, common knowledge helps put characters from other companies on a more even basis for purposes of an intercompany fight. But the way Daxam and Zenn-La are Sodam's and Surfer's homeworlds respectively, I don't think using those homeworlds as a basis for common knowledge serves the spirit of the rule. Thoughts?
I've always interpreted the rule as applying across the board but I'm totally open to case specific exceptions. If it can be argued that Daxam shouldn't qualify as Yat's home world then so be it, I'll let someone else argue that cause I'm not too familiar with Yat.

But limiting basic knowledge to that gained on Earth or by Earth's heroes really just puts characters who're from Earth at a disadvantage to Alien characters since the Alien and the Earthling get the exact same info before the match and it's all about the Earthling.

The Daxam people are very isolated. They don't know about their weakness. They haven't shown any worry. In Superman, those 3, or 4 Daxan that come to attack Superman, and Mon-El(mostly Mon-El) didn't know about their weakness. And they were like some high order crap.

The only ones that know about the weakness are the one who haven't been isolated.

^ That was my impression as well. Even though it's ludicrous that Daxamites have never come in contact with a simple element that is extremely prevalent throughout the universe... but hey, it's comics.Originally posted by darthgoober
I've always interpreted the rule as applying across the board but I'm totally open to case specific exceptions. If it can be argued that Daxam shouldn't qualify as Yat's home world then so be it, I'll let someone else argue that cause I'm not too familiar with Yat.

But limiting basic knowledge to that gained on Earth or by Earth's heroes really just puts characters who're from Earth at a disadvantage to Alien characters since the Alien and the Earthling get the exact same info before the match and it's all about the Earthling. Maybe it would be appropriate to interpret the rule as follows: It's not what Zenn La's population knows that informs an opponent of Surfer's capabilities. It's what his opponent's homeworld in a hypothetical merged homeworld knows of Surfer that informs him of Surfer's capabilities. So, for instance, Huntress who operates on Earth would know what Earthlings generally know of Surfer. But Sodam Yat, as a special member of the GLC who operates throughout the universe, would know what people throughout the universe generally know of Surfer. In this way, Huntress wouldn't be privy to the general knowledge that star-spanning characters would have as it wouldn't make sense to imbue her with such information. I dunno.

Surfer loses

Surfer blows up whole planets and causes black holes.

While Ion 2 was blowing up small moons.

Power difference is clear. Surfer wins.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Dude, sodam yat?

Cosmic awareness + lead weakness... Who has cosmic awareness here?

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Surfer loses Based on what? What has Sodam even done to warrant a surfer beatdown?

His GL feats can be used.



Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer blows up whole planets


http://g.imagehost.org/t/0550/Green_Lantern_0-19.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0153/Green_Lantern_0-20.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0452/Green_Lantern_0-21.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0358/Green_Lantern_0-22.jpg

Originally posted by Enyalus
and causes black holes.


He neutralized a The Blind, which is a weaponized black hole at the center of the sun.


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6561/54799678.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9886/39092472.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4657/11841694.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8018/1617f.jpg
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8418/66315365.jpg
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3103/87656697.jpg


Not saying he wins or losses, just to keep in mind he does retain a wealth of feats as a GL.

Originally posted by id369
His GL feats can be used.


http://g.imagehost.org/t/0550/Green_Lantern_0-19.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0153/Green_Lantern_0-20.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0452/Green_Lantern_0-21.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0358/Green_Lantern_0-22.jpg


Wow. I don't know how I forgot about that. I was just thinking of what he had done the second time around as Ion.

Surfer loses...badly

Of course Kyle wins, it's Kyle.

Originally posted by Mindset
Of course Kyle wins, it's Kyle.

Unless It's GL Id.


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/518/302cqoix.png

You just used this as an excuse to show a pic of you. uhuh

Originally posted by id369
Unless It's GL Id.


http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/518/302cqoix.png lawl

LOL

Surfer wins

Originally posted by kgkg
Surfer wins

Dont have me bring my corps to this thread.

Originally posted by Mindset
lawl

You know Renee is getting a set done as well. >_>

SS ftw. hard to beat a master energy manipulator who has had milliniums worth of experience.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
SS ftw. hard to beat a master energy manipulator who has had milliniums worth of experience.

Minus the age, wouldn't Ion 2/GL be considered monster energy manipulators?

Originally posted by id369
Minus the age, wouldn't Ion 2/GL be considered monster energy manipulators?
If he hadn't had his Ion Powered construct manipulated by Lia Nelson and turned into a giant teddy bear, I'd agree...

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't remember.
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7571/ion9odororeo027.th.jpg

Surfer for the win


But taking all of kyles feats as GL..this is a close fight...as Ion2 he looses badly..i.m.o

Kyle ftw.

Meh, once again, id369: nice work. But I disagree with energy/matter manipulation being a toss up. Norrin's much better in that area. Especially in matter manipulation. Hell, during his battle against God Cable they were matter manipulating and rebuilding everything as fast as they were destroying it, all while holding back.

Surfer's got Kyle dead to rights in that area.

The rest, man, nice stuff. Diversity I might go with Norrin, too. 'Cause the PC allows for astral plane and psychic abilities along with the typical stuff Kyle can do.

Match is still on.

Remember this Kyle as Ion 2 only he never let go of his GL ring.

Bump

Originally posted by Prep-Man
who do you think will win:?
I am completely uncertain.

To many scenarios come to mind, where one has an answer for one another, and vice versa.

Kyle's whole thing with oblivion was really cool and powerful.

bump