Cosmic (Monitor) Armor Superman Versus Lucifer

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tjcoady
This battle takes place in a neutral universe. Lucifer has his wings (of course), and Superman is wearing the monitor armor- both are bloodlusted, and CIS is off.

Who wins? wink

I'm Bran
srug

Enyalus
Lucifer rips out Supes' heart while everyone is cheering his name.

skygunner41
supes

Philosophía
They already fought. uhuh

carnage52
mama mia!!!

tjcoady

Philosophía
Originally posted by tjcoady
Yeah, I guess they kind of did.

Carey's Lucifer.

That better?

No.

Because it hurts my soul.

carnage52
carlton wins.

Galan007
I don't like seeing this version of Supes in versus threads. He was pretty much at the absolute pinnacle of character power, imo. I don't see anyone under a 'true' Supreme character being able to defeat him, personally.

skygunner41
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't like seeing this version of Supes in versus threads. He was pretty much at the absolute pinnacle of character power, imo. I don't see anyone under a 'true' Supreme character being able to defeat him, personally.

I agree but people like this kind of thread, we have a truckload of supreme vs supreme battle at kmc.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't like seeing this version of Supes in versus threads. He was pretty much at the absolute pinnacle of character power, imo. I don't see anyone under a 'true' Supreme character being able to defeat him, personally.

wut are you talkin` bout ?

he was affected by the heat of ten bilion suns.

sentry>him.

uhuh

Galan007

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
Sentry's only got teh powa of a million suns. Million < ten billion. Fanboy. ahah

teh powa of one milion exploding suns. dat > heat of ten bilion. uhuh

Anyway, as it pains me to say, this version of Superman is probably the first character that is not supreme, who I'd say can beat Lucifer.

xJLxKing
Why was that monitor that was fighting Superman so strong? I don't get the story sad

Galan007

fangirl101
Lucifer at his height was a supreme being. With his own realities and everything. His multiverse was more than 52. He beats the snot out of superman and takes the armor for himself.

Philosophía
^ Lucifer fanboy.

Heh. This feels pretty good.

fangirl101

Galan007

Philosophía
Originally posted by fangirl101
I just hate Superman so much.

*looks at sig*

Can't imagine why.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Galan007
No. You're a simple Lucifer fanboy.

But with the last statement, fangirl is like ten notches above you... At least.

Hey, you must have some characters you're a fanboy of aswell.






























.. right ?

What fangirl suggests Lucifer would do is quite simply impossible, due to what the armor is exactly, anyway.

fangirl101

Starscream M
Originally posted by fangirl101
I just hate Superman so much. why?

fangirl101
Originally posted by Starscream M
why? Cosmic armour superman. WTF> what is this? masters of the universe. DC is so damned un original instead of just creating new characters to fill these slots, they just keep remaking Superman over and over. It's pretty old.

Galan007
True. It would have been WAY better if Dianna would have donned the Cosmic Armor. lulz.


On a serious note though, the 'Superman Beyond' comics were some of the more original issues I've ever read.

fangirl101
Originally posted by Galan007
True. It would have been WAY better if Dianna would have donned the Cosmic Armor. lulz.


On a serious note though, the 'Superman Beyond' comics were some of the more original issues I've ever read.
That would have sucked more.

The SB comics were very good. It opened up a world of sci-fi DC sorely needed. But still, Wouldn't have been better to have wished a new character into existance. Or Had him meet a new character. Superman is all over the place in DC. From Low herald to Supreme being.

Galan007
The idea of Superman is what ultimately made him so powerful. That's why only he could have beat Mandrakk. That, imo, is an excellent plot-point.

Bentley
Originally posted by Galan007
The idea of Superman is what ultimately made him so powerful. That's why only he could have beat Mandrakk. That, imo, is an excellent plot-point.

Really? I find it the very definition of deus ex machina, the most worthless written solution to a convoluted horrible plot.

Just saying.

occultdestroyer
Lucifer

kevdude
Lucifer as well

guy222
thumb up

Rage.Of.Olympus
What the hell was up with Final Crisis: Superman Beyond?

I read a lot of comics, and have understood Final Crisis but those two issues had me stumped for some reason. I simply didn't understand the dialogue. It seemed more of a riddle to me than actual dialogue.

From what I understood, Mandrakk the first son of the Monitor was extremely powerful and the Cosmic Armor was meant to evolve instantly to a threat, and Superman with his pure essence transferred to a higher dimension, inhabitited the armor and was able to defeat Mandrakk, but how can we truly judge the scale or limits of either their power as no true indicitation was given?

I mean, did I miss something (I wouldn't be surprised with the way they story had me confused) but how can we match that Superman against a being such as Lucifer when he hasn't shown he can match him in power?

Did I miss something if so please point it out, because I would give a lot to understand some of the finer details of that story. Really had me stumped on some parts.

tjcoady
The reason most people are giving Cosmic Superman so much power is because of the scale of the thing.

The Orrery of Worlds (the entirety of the DC Multiverse) was a creation of the Monitors- they referred to it as "the germ worlds," and if we take sheer size as an indication of anything, the conceptual Superman inhabiting the armor was literally larger than the Multiverse, existing in a dimension outside of space and time.

Mandrakk is supposedly the most horrible threat to all of existence, as he is the embodiment of the void of nothingness.

I actually wasn't really sure who would win this fight, because to me it comes to down to which "structure" of the DC reality you think takes precedence: the Moore/Gaiman/Carey "Vertigo" top-down structure (which has plenty of regular DC Universe appearances to warrant its inclusion within the conceptual Multiverse) with a Judeo-Christian-esque God/Elaine in the Shining City OR the Morrison/Ellis/Johns parallel Multiversal structure, with the Bleed separating each portion of the Multiverse, and the Multiverse basically acting as a "fiction-cauldron" with the Monitors as the most powerful beings in existence.

I don't think it really has an answer; it depends on how you want to look at the DC Universe. It's kind of hard to synthesize both, and I doubt that there will ever be a "real" answer to it.

guy222
superman can fight synnar the demiurge now

laughing out loud

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tjcoady
The reason most people are giving Cosmic Superman so much power is because of the scale of the thing.

The Orrery of Worlds (the entirety of the DC Multiverse) was a creation of the Monitors- they referred to it as "the germ worlds," and if we take sheer size as an indication of anything, the conceptual Superman inhabiting the armor was literally larger than the Multiverse, existing in a dimension outside of space and time.

Mandrakk is supposedly the most horrible threat to all of existence, as he is the embodiment of the void of nothingness.

I actually wasn't really sure who would win this fight, because to me it comes to down to which "structure" of the DC reality you think takes precedence: the Moore/Gaiman/Carey "Vertigo" top-down structure (which has plenty of regular DC Universe appearances to warrant its inclusion within the conceptual Multiverse) with a Judeo-Christian-esque God/Elaine in the Shining City OR the Morrison/Ellis/Johns parallel Multiversal structure, with the Bleed separating each portion of the Multiverse, and the Multiverse basically acting as a "fiction-cauldron" with the Monitors as the most powerful beings in existence.

I don't think it really has an answer; it depends on how you want to look at the DC Universe. It's kind of hard to synthesize both, and I doubt that there will ever be a "real" answer to it.

I understand what you are trying to say, as they did state that Superman's essence was transferred to a higher dimension and from the scale of him, Superman was bigger than the Monitors.

I mean, he did state and show the size Limbo appeared from there, of course but weren't the Monitors present "in" the DC Universe like in Countdown etc.?

Are they different then? Different incarnations? I mean to them if it was a germ world, they would each be bigger than that dimension of the DC Multiverse.

Am I missing something again here?

I just was a bit confused with this two lone issues, and that get's me frustrated as this doesn't happen a lot to me.

tjcoady
As far as I understand, the Monitors in Countdown have been retconned to be mere representations of themselves, as perceived by "mortal eyes."

I think the problem here is that Dan Didio and DC were trying to do their jobs- make money- and they thought that aim was best served by "milking" Final Crisis with Countdown. Doing so kind of messed up the story (especially Death of the New Gods), and so Morrison's explanation was that Countdown and DOTNG was basically his "war in heaven" as far as humans (or Kryptonians or whatever) could understand what actually happened.

I think that's as much as DC is going to explain to us.

Philosophía
Originally posted by tjcoady
I think that's as much as DC is going to explain to us.

And it's enough. I really don't want some writer to come and start showing how the New Gods start going against one another with 'ze energy blastz' and punches.

xJLxKing
So how powerful is just one monitor?

kevdude
It seems they are space gods and up there along with the other DCU gods, something like dc's versions of the Celestrials but a little lower and not above the One who sits on high, who created the whole universe.

AlmightyKfish
All this Mandrakk/Monitor stuff has me so confused.

Vertigo top-down structure seems to make no sense now, but thats been the established order for some time.

Also, if the Monitors were created by the seed program when the tower in Infinite Crisis was destroyed, then how did they create the multiverse, which existed before they were even around...

But also, when Superman changed the multiverse to how it was before Darkseid interfered or whatnot, and bringing about the end of the Monitors, can we just forget about them and keep the Vertigo structure?

My brain hurts.

kevdude
The Miracle Machine was used to protect and shrink down the Multiverse while the hero's battled Mandrakk and to restore the different universes to there right places. It was stated in Countdown Arena 1 that Earth 13 is "Earth Vertigo sort of" which makes sense as some story's in Vergito could be counted as in DC History but then was refuted at Wondercon 08.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth-51#cite_note-29

UniOmni

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
On a serious note though, the 'Superman Beyond' comics were some of the more original issues I've ever read.

I agree. Confusing, a little melodramatic and over-the-top, but definitely original.

That being said, it's made clear from the issue that the scale Superman was seeing during the time he had the Cosmic Armor (holding Limbo in his hand) was due to being on a different plane of existence (Ideas, or something of the sort.)

This is a neutral universe. And besides, even if they were fighting in this Realm of Primal Forms, Lucifer has infinite will. That's a helluva lot of ideas he can create and shape. He'd be more powerful on that plane, too.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
I agree. Confusing, a little melodramatic and over-the-top, but definitely original.

That being said, it's made clear from the issue that the scale Superman was seeing during the time he had the Cosmic Armor (holding Limbo in his hand) was due to being on a different plane of existence (Ideas, or something of the sort.)

This is a neutral universe. And besides, even if they were fighting in this Realm of Primal Forms, Lucifer has infinite will. That's a helluva lot of ideas he can create and shape. He'd be more powerful on that plane, too. Very true. However, Mandrakk possessed 'eternal' power - yet Superman adapted to, and overcame, that. *shrug*

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
Very true. However, Mandrakk possessed 'eternal' power - and Superman was able to adapt to, and overcome, that.

We both know how vague that is. Michael possesses Yahweh's power, and Lucifer killed him...So, how powerful, exactly, is 'eternal power'?

I think its somewhere around the power of DC's 52 universes. But that might have only been on the Ideas plane. Or his own empty boasts. Because as we can see - he gets owned in FC all too easily.

TricksterPriest
Because his own son was helping in addition to a whole bunch of other things.

Also, that was Mandrakk reduced in scale, because he was using Ogama's body and not his original.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
We both know how vague that is. Michael possesses Yahweh's power, and Lucifer killed him...So, how powerful, exactly, is 'eternal power'? >>> Spectre/Radiant combined, at least.

Originally posted by Enyalus
he gets owned in FC all too easily. Considering what Mandrakk did in that very same issue, how he was beaten pretty much defines PIS. imo.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Galan007
>>> Spectre/Radiant combined, at least.

Considering what Mandrakk did in that very same issue, how he was beaten pretty much defines PIS. imo.

He was defeated by an good story, which spawned from the greatest story. It was the final issue, it had to end, his time came and he lost.
That was his part of the story, right?

But he was the greatest and most powerful evil being and he still is.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
>>> Spectre/Radiant combined, at least.

Throughout the story, both Spectre and Radiant show they can't affect certain beings. And considering that they were beaten off panel, how is anyone to say for certain that Mandrakk beat and drained them straight up as opposed to them just not being effective against his type?

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
Throughout the story, both Spectre and Radiant show they can't affect certain beings. And considering that they were beaten off panel, how is anyone to say for certain that Mandrakk beat and drained them straight up as opposed to them just not being effective against his type? It was explained in the final issue of Reveleations that God forbade Spectre from exacting his vengence, so those beings might earn Radiant's mercy. It had nothing to do with the 'type' of character.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
It was explained in the final issue of Reveleations that God forbade Spectre from exacting his vengence, so those beings might earn Radiant's mercy. It had nothing to do with the 'type' of character.

I know this. He also couldn't affect Cain.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
He also couldn't affect Cain. Because God forbids it. The same obviously can't be said about Mandrakk.

Mindset
So that's why he couldn't affect Libra?

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
So that's why he couldn't affect Libra? He couldn't affect Libra because:Originally posted by Galan007
God forbade Spectre from exacting his vengence, so those beings might earn Radiant's mercy. ie. God was basically buying those villains time in which to redeem themselves.


However, no one can kill Savage, because God simply forbids it.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
Because God forbids it. The same obviously can't be said about Mandrakk.

Why not? How do you know this? The fight took place off-panel. Spectre and Radiant lost in a fair fight to Mandrakk, but 50 Supermen HV and 3 GL's power killed him?

Mindset
Yea, that's what I was replying to.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
Why not? How do you know this? The fight took place off-panel. Because Mandrakk can obviously be killed, while Savage cannot. That's what I was saying.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Spectre and Radiant lost in a fair fight to Mandrakk, but 50 Supermen HV and 3 GL's power killed him? Which is why I said it's PIS. Meh, we all know Morrison loves Superman though, so it's not overly shocking.

vlaaad12345
Mandrakk didn't have his real body and superman is kinda supposed to be his opposite so it makes sense for him to effect him,they were also all acting in favor of the multiversal monitor empowered by the miracle machine...its not that big of a pis moment.

WhiteWitchKing
Originally posted by fangirl101
Lucifer at his height was a supreme being. With his own realities and everything. His multiverse was more than 52. He beats the snot out of superman and takes the armor for himself.

Takes the armor for himself? Why? The second most powerful being in creation who stands on the shoulder of the Source, and not giving a f#$k about it, would want that armor?

Lucifer for the win. Unlike Supes, Lucifer is vastly more intelligent and combat experience when it comes to wielding nigh-omnipotent powers. I wouldn't be surprise if he took Supes best attack without a scratch and sends him back to a lower plane of existence.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Takes the armor for himself? Why? The second most powerful being in creation who stands on the shoulder of the Source, and not giving a f#$k about it, would want that armor?

Lucifer for the win. Unlike Supes, Lucifer is vastly more intelligent and combat experience when it comes to wielding nigh-omnipotent powers. I wouldn't be surprise if he took Supes best attack without a scratch and sends him back to a lower plane of existence.

Wouldn't Superman adapt instantly to counter Lucifers omnipotent powers and become even more powerful then Lucifer?

tjcoady
Possibly.

I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, but this battle comes down to which version of the DC cosmology you think has more precedence: Moore/Carey/Gaiman or Morrison/Johns/Ellis.

carnage52
someone give me a cosmic armour bio or something.

leonheartmm
lucifer no contest.

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