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Those cosmic beings, the Infinites, are bigger than Eternity, right? How would one do against the Specter? If one can't beat him then how many would it take?

Can't win. They just can't win this. If Spectre needs to win, he will destroy the entire race.

The Infinites would punch Spectre out.

They lift whole galaxies with one hand...that's an insane amount of strength.

Full powered Spectre was the multiverse/all of creation.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Can't win. They just can't win this. If Spectre needs to win, he will destroy the entire race.

How the hell do you figure? If anything, based off what we know about the Infinites, they're not bound by the laws of the 616 universe, and it's implied that they're multiversal, if not omniversal.

How the do you know an Infinite won't punk Spectre the way Mxy has in the past? And for that matter, why does the Spectre get involved in anything if he hasn't already taken a side and is driven to see things through?

Pretty clear Infinites are multiversal considering their comparison to Eternity.

Originally posted by cloud102
Full powered Spectre was the multiverse/all of creation.

The Source-Spectre? C'mon...that's an amp. I assume the OP meant standard.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Source-Spectre? C'mon...that's an amp. I assume the OP meant standard.

No, I think Ostrander's run where he realized he was all of creation. Kinda similar to Revelations, where he realized his true potential.

The way I've always considered the Spectre is that he's unbeatable if God wants him to be, and he understands what he's doing.

Although with the whole Mandrakk thing, I dunno how that works.

Spectre merged with the Source is an outside amp. The Logos however, is not.

Tjcoady: Exactly. Spectre cannot lose unless god doesn't want him to win.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Spectre merged with the Source is an outside amp. The Logos however, is not.

Tjcoady: Exactly. Spectre cannot lose unless god doesn't want him to win.

Crappy logic, the same can be said of any comic character. Spectre has lost enough times for us to stop assuming that he will win unless hindered.

Spectre

Originally posted by Bentley
Crappy logic, the same can be said of any comic character. Spectre has lost enough times for us to stop assuming that he will win unless hindered.

I disagree.

Obviously any character can win if a "Supreme" being desires them to win, but the Spectre has always been and will always be, a special case.

It's too obvious that the Spectre's powers are dependent on the will of the Presence/God/Elaine/whatever the **** you want to call it.

Even in the original Corrigan days, this was a fact of his powers.

Trust me, I've gone to ground searching for Spectre loses just because I was annoyed about versus threads about the Spectre, and I have seen every single time he's lost and ever time he's won; and they are all over the place. I've seen the Spectre lose to superheroes, demons, 4/5 D imps, Monitor level beings, angelic or demonic beings from Vertigo (from Lucifer to Native American Gods to Animal Gods in the shitty issues of Animal Man) to the Great Evil Beast and Cain. But when the writer decides that the Presence wants the Spectre to win, he does.

The Spectre wins when the writer decides the Presence is behind him. And when the writer is someone who writes good stories like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, or Mike Carey, that works. I mean, even in the more recent issues of the Blue Beetle, the Scarab was suggesting world destroying options, and it was acknowledged that they wouldn't even come close to harming the Spectre.

You want to dig deep?

Lets quote John Constantine, who, although a liar, knows more about DC magic than anyone. And since Grant Morrison says fiction counts more than anything else, well, lets just listen.

"Whatever it is, sometimes it's the most powerful thing in the universe. And sometimes it's just a little man in green tights" (Books of Magic, Two)

And this is the John Constantine, who remembers the events of the original Crisis without distraction, who can stroll through battles between the Anti-Monitor and the Multiverse's superheroes like it doesn't even exist.... classic John Constantine who makes Moore's Swamp Thing look like a fool.

Whatever. The Spectre isn't one of those characters who gets narration like Captain America where it says "they always wins." The Spectre's powerset IS literally that he will win unless the Presence says he doesn't. That's what he does. It's been established too many times to argue with.


Anyways, Bentley, I'm not arguing with your logic. I agree WAY too much to do that. We have too many characters here on the KMC boards that get fan-wanked about how it's in their powerset to always win (Flash, The Silver Surfer, Darkseid, Superman, Punisher, Batman.... you could go on for days with characters from street level to Beyonder-leverl).....

But the Spectre has to be a special case. It's been shown too many times that "being the special case" is literally his powers to argue with that.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Can't win. They just can't win this. If Spectre needs to win, he will destroy the entire race.




He saw DC vs Marvel and automatically assumed the infinte couldnt win. DC fanboy here for real.

One infinite was shown to be much more powerful than Eternity how the hell is Spectre gonna destory the whole race,...jeezus.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone


He saw DC vs Marvel and automatically assumed the infinte couldnt win. DC fanboy here for real.

One infinite was shown to be much more powerful than Eternity how the hell is Spectre gonna destory the whole race,...jeezus.
Becuz being more powerful than eternity is a big Whoop. Mxy is more powerful than eternity. By a fair bit. And The Spectre could destroy the whole race of imps if he so chose.

Originally posted by fangirl101
And The Spectre could destroy the whole race of imps if he so chose.

Mxy whipped his ass just fine, so unless you're going to argue that the Spectre's a depraved masochist in addition to being the right hand of God, then he couldn't do so under his own power.

From what's been generally agreed upon here is that he's only unstoppable with the full-backing of the Presence.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Mxy whipped his ass just fine, so unless you're going to argue that the Spectre's a depraved masochist in addition to being the right hand of God, then he couldn't do so under his own power.

From what's been generally agreed upon here is that he's only unstoppable with the full-backing of the Presence.
you mean when the depowered spectre stripped mxy of his powers? That time?

I don't read enough DC to counter, so fair enough.

Now explain the Bat-kick situation.

Originally posted by fangirl101
you mean when the depowered spectre stripped mxy of his powers? That time?

Wait a sec hasnt Mxy played around with Spectre before? Wasnt Emperor Joker more powerful than Spctre?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wait a sec hasnt Mxy played around with Spectre before? Wasnt Emperor Joker more powerful than Spctre?
NO he wasn't. He bound spectre in such a way that if Spectre exerted his power to free himself, he would destroy all existance.

Just like any other KMC we have to go by Current versions and feats. Eternity was raped by a single hand of a infinite. Thats like a man crushing a baby in a palm of his hand.

They are mulitversal but they don't have much to go by. Also since spectre has some great showings but sometime those showings is with amps. He also has some low showings. Anyway IMO Infinites are atleast around LT level.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
Just like any other KMC we have to go by Current versions and feats. Eternity was raped by a single hand of a infinite. Thats like a man crushing a baby in a palm of his hand.

They are mulitversal but they don't have much to go by. Also since spectre has some great showings but sometime those showings is with amps. He also has some low showings. Anyway IMO Infinites are atleast around LT level.
Lulz. The LT has held megaverses in his hand and reshaped them at will. How is an infinite anywhere near that lvl when the best we've seen is Eternity actually fight back against one. eternity can't do squat against the LT.

Originally posted by tjcoady
I disagree.

Obviously any character can win if a "Supreme" being desires them to win, but the Spectre has always been and will always be, a special case.

It's too obvious that the Spectre's powers are dependent on the will of the Presence/God/Elaine/whatever the **** you want to call it.

Even in the original Corrigan days, this was a fact of his powers.

Trust me, I've gone to ground searching for Spectre loses just because I was annoyed about versus threads about the Spectre, and I have seen every single time he's lost and ever time he's won; and they are all over the place. I've seen the Spectre lose to superheroes, demons, 4/5 D imps, Monitor level beings, angelic or demonic beings from Vertigo (from Lucifer to Native American Gods to Animal Gods in the shitty issues of Animal Man) to the Great Evil Beast and Cain. But when the writer decides that the Presence wants the Spectre to win, he does.

The Spectre wins when the writer decides the Presence is behind him. And when the writer is someone who writes good stories like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, or Mike Carey, that works. I mean, even in the more recent issues of the Blue Beetle, the Scarab was suggesting world destroying options, and it was acknowledged that they wouldn't even come close to harming the Spectre.

You want to dig deep?

Lets quote John Constantine, who, although a liar, knows more about DC magic than anyone. And since Grant Morrison says fiction counts more than anything else, well, lets just listen.

"Whatever it is, sometimes it's the most powerful thing in the universe. And sometimes it's just a little man in green tights" (Books of Magic, Two)

And this is the John Constantine, who remembers the events of the original Crisis without distraction, who can stroll through battles between the Anti-Monitor and the Multiverse's superheroes like it doesn't even exist.... classic John Constantine who makes Moore's Swamp Thing look like a fool.

Whatever. The Spectre isn't one of those characters who gets narration like Captain America where it says "they always wins." The Spectre's powerset IS literally that he will win unless the Presence says he doesn't. That's what he does. It's been established too many times to argue with.


Anyways, Bentley, I'm not arguing with your logic. I agree WAY too much to do that. We have too many characters here on the KMC boards that get fan-wanked about how it's in their powerset to always win (Flash, The Silver Surfer, Darkseid, Superman, Punisher, Batman.... you could go on for days with characters from street level to Beyonder-leverl).....

But the Spectre has to be a special case. It's been shown too many times that "being the special case" is literally his powers to argue with that.
Nice post and QFT

Originally posted by fangirl101
Becuz being more powerful than eternity is a big Whoop. Mxy is more powerful than eternity. By a fair bit. And The Spectre could destroy the whole race of imps if he so chose.

In addition to being owned by Emperor Joker, he was also owned by the blue 5-D genie...Lkz, or something like that.

Originally posted by tjcoady
I disagree.

Obviously any character can win if a "Supreme" being desires them to win, but the Spectre has always been and will always be, a special case.

It's too obvious that the Spectre's powers are dependent on the will of the Presence/God/Elaine/whatever the **** you want to call it.

Even in the original Corrigan days, this was a fact of his powers.

Trust me, I've gone to ground searching for Spectre loses just because I was annoyed about versus threads about the Spectre, and I have seen every single time he's lost and ever time he's won; and they are all over the place. I've seen the Spectre lose to superheroes, demons, 4/5 D imps, Monitor level beings, angelic or demonic beings from Vertigo (from Lucifer to Native American Gods to Animal Gods in the shitty issues of Animal Man) to the Great Evil Beast and Cain. But when the writer decides that the Presence wants the Spectre to win, he does.

The Spectre wins when the writer decides the Presence is behind him. And when the writer is someone who writes good stories like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, or Mike Carey, that works. I mean, even in the more recent issues of the Blue Beetle, the Scarab was suggesting world destroying options, and it was acknowledged that they wouldn't even come close to harming the Spectre.

You want to dig deep?

Lets quote John Constantine, who, although a liar, knows more about DC magic than anyone. And since Grant Morrison says fiction counts more than anything else, well, lets just listen.

"Whatever it is, sometimes it's the most powerful thing in the universe. And sometimes it's just a little man in green tights" (Books of Magic, Two)

And this is the John Constantine, who remembers the events of the original Crisis without distraction, who can stroll through battles between the Anti-Monitor and the Multiverse's superheroes like it doesn't even exist.... classic John Constantine who makes Moore's Swamp Thing look like a fool.

Whatever. The Spectre isn't one of those characters who gets narration like Captain America where it says "they always wins." The Spectre's powerset IS literally that he will win unless the Presence says he doesn't. That's what he does. It's been established too many times to argue with.


Anyways, Bentley, I'm not arguing with your logic. I agree WAY too much to do that. We have too many characters here on the KMC boards that get fan-wanked about how it's in their powerset to always win (Flash, The Silver Surfer, Darkseid, Superman, Punisher, Batman.... you could go on for days with characters from street level to Beyonder-leverl).....

But the Spectre has to be a special case. It's been shown too many times that "being the special case" is literally his powers to argue with that.


The problem is that, in this boards, should we suppose that god wants the Spectre to win every battle, wouldn't that degenerate to saying anyone who fights the Spectre effectively fights god?

Even if the observation would be valid in comics, I don't think it has any place to be debated in here, I mean, Galactus summons the UN, but its true that arguing about a Galactus fights and declaring he has an auto win because of the UN beats the point of using the character Galactus at all.

Eclipso was sort of the Spectre before, and while uber he is limited. Should we just assume that the Spectre has to be debated next to god everytime or should we go by feats (which are admittedly all around, I've seen him koed by gas) like with every other character?

Its true that the character is a literal deus in machina, nevertheless, if there is a character that "always has a plan" and we strip them from their plans, why should we make an special case of the Spectre?

Wrath of god. Unless you are trying to spite him, the right answer is to NOT USE HIM. Spectre cannot lose unless the Presence doesn't want him to win or he's facing a supreme being.

There are no feats that make Spectre lose. You can't use feats for someone whose power is determined by god's will.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I don't read enough DC to counter, so fair enough.

Now explain the Bat-kick situation. Please don't tell me your serious?

Originally posted by iceman24567
Please don't tell me your serious?
No, just being difficult. I know the Batkick created the Big Bang and gave birth to myriad pantheons.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Wrath of god. Unless you are trying to spite him, the right answer is to NOT USE HIM. Spectre cannot lose unless the Presence doesn't want him to win or he's facing a supreme being.

There are no feats that make Spectre lose. You can't use feats for someone whose power is determined by god's will.

I agree that not to use it is the best way to go. Not for the reasons you mention but because of the degeneration such discussions bring.

Probably Days of Vengeance Spectre is the most "usable" one in that regard.

Originally posted by Bentley
Crappy logic, the same can be said of any comic character. Spectre has lost enough times for us to stop assuming that he will win unless hindered.

Truer words have rarely been spoken.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Wrath of god. Unless you are trying to spite him, the right answer is to NOT USE HIM. Spectre cannot lose unless the Presence doesn't want him to win or he's facing a supreme being.

There are no feats that make Spectre lose. You can't use feats for someone whose power is determined by god's will. What is it's just the regular Spectre that we usually see in comics that isn't 'fully backed' or isn't without a host?

Since we can't really go by the most current, we should be using the most common portrayal, not the one almost never seen in comics, and hasn't happened since Hal was Spectre...

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's the thing right there. A huge fallacy from the "If The Presence wants Spectre to win, he does" argument. I'm inclined to say that line of thought borders on retardation.

Because clearly against COIE AM Spectre had God's full backing. Not only that, but he had an amp from dozens of powerful mages and 5-D beings. He still did not "win." So there goes that line of thought. And is someone really going to tell me that all of the times Spectre has lost (and there have been enough), God didn't want him to win? Like, for instance, the 5th Dimension War in the previous volume of JLA...which was going to destroy planet Earth and could've ended up wiping out all reality. Spectre was bound and beaten, in the Void. God wanted him to lose? Seriously, that's the Spectre base's argument?

I'm left to conclude that either a) God is a bastard. (I like that one, personally.) Or b) that line of thought is totally false.

There's also been the argument that, 'When Spectre has The Presence's backing, he's the Wrath of God.' And my reply to this is: No - he is always God's "fist." Spectre without God's backing doesn't become a different entity. He doesn't change his essence. He doesn't become something different. Case in point is the hostless Spectre of DOV. That incarnation did not have The Presence's support. In point of fact, The Presence wasn't even aware Spectre was off of his leash until he had destroyed the current Age of Magic. Was Spectre something different? Of course not. He was still the wrath of God. Still, quite literally, the spirit of Vengeance.

And he loses here, since this is Current Spectre.

Infinites weren't that impressive.

...hmm... I wouldn't say that:


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721892_etpf1.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,

the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"



WOW! ... Eternity is the embodiment of the Omniverse!

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792375_Et.jpg

"WithIN Eternity ... ALL That Ever Was, Ever Is, or Ever Will Be exists"
(sometimes both Infinity & Eternity are portrayed all, sometimes just Eternity)



WOW! ...

Now ...
the embodiment of all there is in Marvel getting handled like a toy by one finger/hand!

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2209/etvsifop0.th.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3193/etvsif2uq3.th.jpg


The Infinites are super omnipotents!

Yet one had to sacrifice his life just to fix what they did? Super omnipotents could do it with a wave of their hand, you know that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Infinites are super omnipotents!

Damn straight.

Yes, they are powerful. But not compared to the Spectre.


"That's the thing right there. A huge fallacy from the "If The Presence wants Spectre to win, he does" argument. I'm inclined to say that line of thought borders on retardation.

Because clearly against COIE AM Spectre had God's full backing. Not only that, but he had an amp from dozens of powerful mages and 5-D beings. He still did not "win." So there goes that line of thought. And is someone really going to tell me that all of the times Spectre has lost (and there have been enough), God didn't want him to win? Like, for instance, the 5th Dimension War in the previous volume of JLA...which was going to destroy planet Earth and could've ended up wiping out all reality. Spectre was bound and beaten, in the Void. God wanted him to lose? Seriously, that's the Spectre base's argument?

I'm left to conclude that either a) God is a bastard. (I like that one, personally.) Or b) that line of thought is totally false.

There's also been the argument that, 'When Spectre has The Presence's backing, he's the Wrath of God.' And my reply to this is: No - he is always God's "fist." Spectre without God's backing doesn't become a different entity. He doesn't change his essence. He doesn't become something different. Case in point is the hostless Spectre of DOV. That incarnation did not have The Presence's support. In point of fact, The Presence wasn't even aware Spectre was off of his leash until he had destroyed the current Age of Magic. Was Spectre something different? Of course not. He was still the wrath of God. Still, quite literally, the spirit of Vengeance.

And he loses here, since this is Current Spectre. "

Spectre violated his orders during COIE and as a result was busted down temporarily. God did not want him to try and destroy AM. Hence, why he stayed down after the fight. And story considerations do play against him using his full power, and of course, "what mortal mind can comprehend the will of god?"

When Spectre has the backing of the Presence, he's the UNSTOPPABLE Wrath of God. Without it, he can be delayed, but aside from the Spear or a supreme being like Mandrakk or GEB, never stopped.

The lowballing on Spectre is insulting. Per KMC rules, this is Spectre without any restrictions who is fighting at his best and not jobbing.

Logoz merged spectre will win.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The lowballing on Spectre is insulting. Per KMC rules, this is Spectre without any restrictions who is fighting at his best and not jobbing.

No, per KMC rules, this is current Spectre.


And I still say the Infinite simply punches him the **** out.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Yet one had to sacrifice his life just to fix what they did?
Right, and exactly how much damage do you know was fixed?

You don't.

The Infinites crossed all of time/space rearranging Galaxies,
that right there spells for an infinite number of problems to fix.

Still, the Infinite sacrificing himself was not due to need, but to want,
meaning, the Infinite did it as a geture of his respect for life,
sortalike, giving back for taking so much.

So, I'm sure the Infinite could've waved his hand and boom,
but instead, he chose to give his life,
and in turn also become one with all the life he took.

That was the purpose of the sacrifice my friend.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Super omnipotents could do it with a wave of their hand, you know that.
Super omnipotents handle all of time/space like a toy.

Which is exactly what that one Infinite did.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And I still say the Infinite simply punches him the **** out.

With a hand that big, who can argue?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
With a hand that big, who can argue?

Originally posted by Mr Master
...hmm... I wouldn't say that:


http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721892_etpf1.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,

the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"



WOW! ... Eternity is the embodiment of the Omniverse!

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792375_Et.jpg

"WithIN Eternity ... ALL That Ever Was, Ever Is, or Ever Will Be exists"
(sometimes both Infinity & Eternity are portrayed all, sometimes just Eternity)



WOW! ...

Now ...
the embodiment of all there is in Marvel getting handled like a toy by one finger/hand!

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2209/etvsifop0.th.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3193/etvsif2uq3.th.jpg


The Infinites are super omnipotents!


I've seen these scans before Master. Do you think Marvel might have put Eternity above the Infinites since those first scans seem to look newer compared to the 1 where he is wrestling with 1 with his hand?? Also do you think it might have been an M-body of Eternity or all of Eternity fighting the hand?

All Eternity's are M-bodies. Doesn't mean they're less powerful considering an M-body can be as powerful as the being wants it to be.

Originally posted by kevdude

I've seen these scans before Master.
Do you think Marvel might have put Eternity above the Infinites
since those first scans seem to look newer
compared to the 1 where he is wrestling with 1 with his hand??
They're separated by less than a year.

Still,
that doesn't make a difference since Eternity's last bio (2006) makes it official.

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1282030_INFET.jpg

Originally posted by kevdude

Also do you think it might have been an M-body of Eternity
or all of Eternity fighting the hand?
The embody of 616 Eternity is all of Eternity.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

All Eternity's are M-bodies.
Doesn't mean they're less powerful
considering an M-body can be as powerful as the being wants it to be.
True, but just to be precise m-bodies always come at full power,
there's no proof or suggestive allusion of any kind on panel or in bios
to support the idea that Concepts can manifest at various levels of power.

In fact, we only have "proof" that m-bodies (fractals) do manifest at full power,
and nothing else that we know of, or that Marvel tells us.

As it is stated in Anthropomorpho's bio. (prime manifester of the Dimension of Manifestation)

Originally posted by Mr Master

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/2209/etvsifop0.th.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3193/etvsif2uq3.th.jpg



This reminds me of the scene in CotiE where the Hand held and later came out of the whole DC creation. Later this hand was that of the Anti Monitor and Spectre began to wrestle with it.

Anti Monitor and Spectre are Supergigamega omnipotents then I guess.

Though Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk are still superior it seems, like Supersajajingigaomnimega omnipotent.



Sry, couldn't resist

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
This reminds me of the scene in CotiE where the Hand held and later came out of the whole DC creation. Later this hand was that of the Anti Monitor and Spectre began to wrestle with it.

Anti Monitor and Spectre are Supergigamega omnipotents then I guess.

Though Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk are still superior it seems, like Supersajajingigaomnimega omnipotent.



Sry, couldn't resist


Why did those two grope each other in that scan?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
This reminds me of the scene in CotiE where the Hand held and later came out of the whole DC creation. Later this hand was that of the Anti Monitor and Spectre began to wrestle with it.

Anti Monitor and Spectre are Supergigamega omnipotents then I guess.

Though Cosmic Armor Superman and Mandrakk are still superior it seems, like Supersajajingigaomnimega omnipotent.



Sry, couldn't resist


Why did those two grope each other in that scan?

Originally posted by Mr Master
True, but just to be precise m-bodies always come at full power,
there's no proof or suggestive allusion of any kind on panel or in bios
to support the idea that Concepts can manifest at various levels of power.

In fact, we only have "proof" that m-bodies (fractals) do manifest at full power,
and nothing else that we know of, or that Marvel tells us.

As it is stated in Anthropomorpho's bio. (prime manifester of the Dimension of Manifestation)

I agree good friend. I was going by what the anthromorph said in that issue of Quasar (#28 I think?). It stated that an M-body can be whatever the being asking for it wants it to be. I too assumed they started off as exact copies of the original.

About your last response to me about the Infinities. I going strictly by what the Infinite who sacrificed himself said. At first it looks like he just recreated the planet they're standing on. But then he says he did it to repair all the damage they caused. That most likely implies that he repaired the galaxy the Infinites dragged around. ::shrugs::

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Spectre merged with the Source is an outside amp. The Logos however, is not.

Tjcoady: Exactly. Spectre cannot lose unless god doesn't want him to win. False. Prove this with a scan or something. This thread isn't about the presence anyways, so you cannot include him just to get spectre the win.

depends on the user of the spectre sadly, each writer makes him have diffrent power levels, when he was used by corrigan, he could do ALOT of insane things, and when he was with hal jordan that was uped to insane levels, BUT he has a weakness to magic go freaking figure, he's suppose to be the strongest magical being though sadly bad writing keeps us doubting as to his abilities........could he beat eternity? well the current one couldnt even beat libra i dont know why i havent read final crisis and from what ive read its a good thing.