Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

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Darth Sexy
New novel announced for December 2009. I bet this is where Bane dies and Zannah gets Cognus as her apprentice.

Publius II
Cognus? That sounds like a nasal condition.

Lightsnake
Cognus was never confirmed as Zannah's Apprentice to my knowledge.

But just kill Bane.

Cpt. Valerian
Zannah supposedly will become more powerful than Bane. Right?

BruceSkywalker
I'll buy it

xxxpoppunker182
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Zannah supposedly will become more powerful than Bane. Right?

not supposedly will

Cpt. Valerian
Yes, 'supposedly will' until the third book is released.

Publius II
She doesn't have to surpass him to kill him.

Darth Exodus
Yeah, she could just be a pvssy and kill him in his sleep.

Lightsnake
Why am I not surprised that you think doing something smart is cowardly?

xxxpoppunker182
no she will become more powerful than him and guess what her apprentice becomes more powerful than her and that's how it goes until palpy the most powerful of them all.

and if his plan of turning anakin to the darkside wasn't mesed up by obi-wan than anakin would have become more powerful than palpatine.

Publius II
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
no she will become more powerful than him and guess what her apprentice becomes more powerful than herProve it.

Completely irrelevant. Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful individual ever born; he would have become more powerful than Palpatine with or without the tutelage of the Sith.

Cpt. Valerian
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
no she will become more powerful than him and guess what her apprentice becomes more powerful than her and that's how it goes until palpy the most powerful of them all.

You base this argument on what, exactly? There's actually evidence proving it's not necessarily the way it works.

Revan and Malak, for example. Is Malak more powerful than Revan? No. Would he have become more powerful? No. See?

Your argument doesn't work simply because there are too many factors to consider within the Master's death in the hands of the Apprentice.

Darth Exodus
Dude it was a joke. Personally I approve of doing the smart, 'cowardly' thing if it works.

I do though think its pretty dumb to kill someone just before you learn their uber godly technique. Could Palpatine not wait a few more days?

Gideon
I think the entire point of the Rule of Two is that your apprentice is supposed to surpass you.

Not that it actually happened that way, but still. Bane jumped the shark past book one. He served his purpose in the first book. Why do we need a third one on him?

Darth Exodus
Because he's a decent character with a fanbase that wants to know what happens to him beyond 'he dies'. I mean what was the purpose of writing about what happened after ROTJ? To serve the fans who were curious. Same here.

Plus there are still moons who don't bow down to his awesome powa!!1! Examples must be set.

Cpt. Valerian
Originally posted by Gideon
Why do we need a third one on him?

Fanbase.

Darth Sexy
I think everyone is interested in how Bane dies and how his legacy begins to get carried out.

xxxpoppunker182
Originally posted by Publius II
Prove it.

I will after the book has come out and she is more powerful

Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
You base this argument on what, exactly? There's actually evidence proving it's not necessarily the way it works.

Revan and Malak, for example. Is Malak more powerful than Revan? No. Would he have become more powerful? No. See?

Your argument doesn't work simply because there are too many factors to consider within the Master's death in the hands of the Apprentice.

revan and malak weren't under the same rule of two as banes order.

and the entire nature of the banes rule of two is to make the sith stronger. like gideon said it may have not turned out that way but so far the way zannah's character has been written implies that she will become more powerful than Bane and the rule of two also implies that she will surpass Bane in power because that's the whole point

Publius II
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I will after the book has come out and she is more powerfulThere's going to be nuclear war.

I'll prove it to you after it happens, kay?

1.) You can't presume that something is going to happen and then treat it like established canon.

2.) There is no evidence to support the theory that each successive Sith Lord is more powerful than his or her master. Bane's Order was as much about ideology, knowledge, and planning as it was about brute force, if not moreso.

xxxpoppunker182
Im not trying to treat it as canon but it will eventually become canon

and I agree with your second point but i'm almost positive that the whole idea behind the rule of two is that the sith become stronger and stronger.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
Im not trying to treat it as canon but it will eventually become canon

and I agree with your second point but i'm almost positive that the whole idea behind the rule of two is that the sith become stronger and stronger.

Stronger and stronger through secrecy, deception, and keeping the dark side between two individuals, instead of many. In the sense that each sith becomes stronger than his master? Speculation at best, and there's nothing that would suggest it. If this were the case, then Sidious is miles and miles above Bane. Bane did state that Zannah had the POTENTIAL to surpass him, but that's all.

Cpt. Valerian
Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
revan and malak weren't under the same rule of two as banes order.

O rly?

Where do you think Bane got the idea from? Does 'Revan's holocron' ring a bell?


And yeah, you'll do so after the book is released. For now, don't claim something will 'eventually become canon', because, even though it is a probability, we can't treat it as canon until we know more.

xxxpoppunker182
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
O rly?

Where do you think Bane got the idea from? Does 'Revan's holocron' ring a bell?


And yeah, you'll do so after the book is released. For now, don't claim something will 'eventually become canon', because, even though it is a probability, we can't treat it as canon until we know more.

I understand where bane got the IDEA from but the rule of two in Banes order is different as you will find Revans rule was one master one apprentice and a legion of sith troopers both force using sith spprentices and sith affiliation troops.

the idea behind Banes rule of two is one master one apprentice where the apprentice learns everything from their master then kills them and the cycle repeats itself.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Stronger and stronger through secrecy, deception, and keeping the dark side between two individuals, instead of many. In the sense that each sith becomes stronger than his master? Speculation at best, and there's nothing that would suggest it. If this were the case, then Sidious is miles and miles above Bane. Bane did state that Zannah had the POTENTIAL to surpass him, but that's all.

yes speculation but I do think there are sources that suggest it or at least imply it when i have more time i could look them up( I mean why else instate a rule of two unless you're trying to build up the sith? and the way you do that is by making your apprentice stronger?)

and I do believe that Sidious is Miles above Bane.

and for the record I think this entire debate is pointless i mean i could see why you guys would be all pissed off if I was trying to argue that zannah was more powerful than bane in a vs thread or something but I thought this thread was about talking about what we think will happen and if im wrong and she doesn't become more powerful than bane(which I'm 99% sure she will) then guess what I'm wrong and it's not a big deal.

Publius II
I'm not mad, I think you were being presumptuous in stating that Zannah was going to surpass and kill Bane.

xxxpoppunker182
I am cool

Darth Sexy
Are you seriously trying to be a smartass? Your argument has no merit. Zannah killing Bane in no way dictates her alleged superiority to Bane. Just.. Stop..

xxxpoppunker182
first yess I was.

second, why are you gettin all bent out of shape of a fictional universe and some guy who is messin around.

Darth Truculent
Sith apprentices and Sith troops are little more minions - pawns used on a galactic wide chess board. Maul was one of those minions and so was Dooku and Ventress - they just happened to be strong in the Force.

Allankles
Before Bane any Sith with enough power or knowledge could claim lordship. After Bane this knowledge and power was spread only between 2 Sith.

That's why the Kotor era is ripe for story telling. In the games alone the Sith cults like Traya's on Malachor were running parallel to Malak's order.

And almost immediately after Malak's war machine was toppled the Sith triumvate were the strongest cult of Sith. In this era knowledge was not monopolized as there were many libraries of Sith knowledge spread out in the galaxy.

Hell, Atris was able to gather her own collection during the JCW from temples all over the galaxy, both Jedi and Sith.

Darth Truculent
Atris was a mad Jedi Master Allankles. Revan created the rule of two from the ancients. Through Revan's holocron Bane perfected the rule of two. Remember what Traya said - "Sith is a Belief." After Sidious was killed, the Sith ceased to exist right? Nope. Jacen revived it and became Caedus after Lumiya twisted him to serve her own purpose.

I agree with you that the Sith is a cult, but Revan and Bane knew that in order for the Sith to remain strong, there must only be two. Sure use other darkside users, but they are little more than soldiers used for cannon fodder. Nobody can wage war without troops and manipulating events. Bane manipulated events several times to serve his purpose like how he destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness. Revan destroyed the Sith on Korriban which indirectly led to rise of Bane.

xxxpoppunker182
the darkside users of revans were sith. they had sith training and learned sith techniques just like everyone else in that era where as the emperors hands and the darkside users of his ere were just puppets and nothing more than dark jedi.

Captain REX
Indeed, Revan may have come up with the Rule of Two (based on his past knowledge) but all of his Dark Side underlings were Sith, not Dark Jedi.

As far as the Sith continuing on after Sidious... that is just EU trampling the films again. While the Sith are an ideology, the ideology was supposed to end with Sidious and Vader as they could not continue their teachings when they're dead. Of course we havce Sidious revived and holocrons and Sith ghosts and blah blah blah...

xxxpopunker182 has said that the point of the Rule of Two is for the apprentice to surpass the Master. We do not know if that necessarily means out-and-out becoming more powerful, maybe just more skillful in deception and planning and whatnot, but we will see. We don't know if Zannah actually surpasses Bane at some point, but it is a possibility that shouldn't be ignored.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Captain REX
Indeed, Revan may have come up with the Rule of Two (based on his past knowledge) but all of his Dark Side underlings were Sith, not Dark Jedi.
HOw could you possibly know that? We ONLY know that he corrupted Jedi and that the only confirmed sith he had was Darth Malak, his apprentice. It is more likely that he conformed to the rule of two while having loads of Dark Jedi, whereas Malak didn't conform to this principle.

Bespin Bart
It seemed implied to me that the Dark Siders under Revan's employ had received minor Sith teachings. They obviously weren't Sith Lords that destroyed everyone and everything, but I felt that the academies on Malachor V and Korriban implied that they were receiving tutorship in the Dark Side of the Force as Sith. I could be wrong, Rex could be wrong, I know neither of us have really played KOTOR with much dedication...

Captain REX
Eh, I think maybe 'All' is too strong because there ARE Dark Jedi that work for Revan. But Revan and Malak were not the only Sith in Revan's Empire.

Allankles
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Atris was a mad Jedi Master Allankles. Revan created the rule of two from the ancients. Through Revan's holocron Bane perfected the rule of two. Remember what Traya said - "Sith is a Belief." After Sidious was killed, the Sith ceased to exist right? Nope. Jacen revived it and became Caedus after Lumiya twisted him to serve her own purpose.

I agree with you that the Sith is a cult, but Revan and Bane knew that in order for the Sith to remain strong, there must only be two. Sure use other darkside users, but they are little more than soldiers used for cannon fodder. Nobody can wage war without troops and manipulating events. Bane manipulated events several times to serve his purpose like how he destroyed the Brotherhood of Darkness. Revan destroyed the Sith on Korriban which indirectly led to rise of Bane.

There were many Sith at the time. The existence of the triumvate is proof of this, the masters of the academies on Korriban and Malachor were full fledged Sith. Many of the students were dark Jedi granted, but many of their masters were considered full members of the Sith order.

Revan's involvement with the rule of 2 was a retcon, it was never explicitly practiced until Bane. The rule of two would have ended the Sith after Kotor 1, but Malak didn't have a monopoly on dark side knowledge, nothing like Sidious and Vader who horded every dark side artifice and holocron they could get hold of, in their castles.

EDIT: In essence there was always a single Lord of the order with a prime apprentice. Even the ancients like Naga always kept a single or prime apprentice. You could extend such ideas to Kun and Ulic as a model of the rule of 2, but it was never an explicit rule until Bane.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Dude it was a joke. Personally I approve of doing the smart, 'cowardly' thing if it works.

I do though think its pretty dumb to kill someone just before you learn their uber godly technique. Could Palpatine not wait a few more days?

Plagueis wasn't teaching it to my knowledge-maybe the new Encyclopedia contradicts me here, Gideon'd know.

I think it's said Palpatine only killed Plagueis when he surpassed him, though

Darth Sexy
I think it was when Plagueis taught him so much, that he became unncessary. Of course, we don't really know what "cheating death" means in the SW universe. Many sith lords have done so successfully. Krayt, Muur, Andeddu, sith emperor in the new game, etc.

xxxpoppunker182
Very true in dark lord rise of vader I remember a conversation between the emperor and vader that pretty much said vader wouldn't kill the emperor(even if he could do it alone) until he knew everything or at least close to everything palpatine knew.

Darth Truculent
Allankles, as I stated Bane perfected Rule of Two. Revan was the concept artist, but never had the chance to employ it. You make a mention of the triumvate, but didn't the Exile break it up? It seems strange that 3 Sith Lords wouldn't fight against one Jedi.

Major Valerian
He never had the chance to employ it?

So, what was KOTOR then?

Allankles
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Allankles, as I stated Bane perfected Rule of Two. Revan was the concept artist, but never had the chance to employ it. You make a mention of the triumvate, but didn't the Exile break it up? It seems strange that 3 Sith Lords wouldn't fight against one Jedi.

You do understand that the Rule of two being associated with Revan in any way, shape or form was a retcon? One added after the games? When Karpyshyn (sp?) helped lead the writing for Kotor 1 he had no idea that he'd be working on a Bane novel almost 5 years later.

When Obsidian did the story in Kotor 2, again it was well before the Bane novels, so there's nothing consistent about the book in relation to Kotor. Nothing of the rule of two is suggested during Kotor because it's not part of the Sith order until Bane.

No one is denying Revan's role here, the rule was simply not a part of the Sith in Kotor. There's an MMO game set 3000 years before Vader (roughly a millenium after Kotor), and again there's no rule of 2 anywhere.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Allankles, as I stated Bane perfected Rule of Two. Revan was the concept artist, but never had the chance to employ it. You make a mention of the triumvate, but didn't the Exile break it up? It seems strange that 3 Sith Lords wouldn't fight against one Jedi. Revan didn't conceive of the Rule of Two. If he anything, his Sith mirrored Krayt's more. Bane took his knowledge and applied his own, forming the RoT.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Revan didn't conceive of the Rule of Two. If he anything, his Sith mirrored Krayt's more. Bane took his knowledge and applied his own, forming the RoT.

This would make sense if the Bane sequel didn't exist. Revan DID conceive the rule of two. What part of "any master who trains more than one apprentice is a fool" do you not understand? How about "2 there should be, one to embody the power, one to crave it".

Major Valerian
Yeah, the fact that he had zillions Sith apprentices and Sith masters under his command doesn't mean he did not apply it. It was no-where near similar to Krayt's.

Darth Sexy
Again, the only confirmed sith apprentice we have under Revan, is Malak.

Major Valerian
I know. It wasn't sarcasm, I was agreeing with you.

Publius II
I thought it was blatant sarcasm.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Publius II
I thought it was blatant sarcasm.

seconded

Darth Sexy
That's what I thought

Major Valerian
Well, all of you were utterly wrong.

Bespin Bart
The Rule of Two implies that there are only two Sith in existence. Revan only had one apprentice, but there were also hundreds of Sith working for him.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Bespin Bart
The Rule of Two implies that there are only two Sith in existence. Revan only had one apprentice, but there were also hundreds of Sith working for him.

"Any master who trains more than one apprentice"-Revan. Other than Malak, there is NO evidence of Revan training other sith. He had hundreds of Dark Jedi but that's all we know. Thus far his actions seem to be consistent with the Rule of Two.

xxxpoppunker182
the sith in Revans empire were sith. they trained at the SITH academy and leanred SITh teachings from the SITH tombs and the SITH books on Korriban Just because Revan was training Malak as his apprentice doesn't mean that there weren't other sith around the sith triumative is proof of this. Nothing of that era states, claims, or shows that everyone else aside from Revan, malak, and then Bandon, were just dark jedi.

show me evedince that says only revan and malak were the only sith around and i will conced that i was wrong but so far revans holocron only indicates (but doesn't prove) that there should only be 2 sith at a time.

D-FENS
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
"Any master who trains more than one apprentice"-Revan. Other than Malak, there is NO evidence of Revan training other sith. He had hundreds of Dark Jedi but that's all we know. Thus far his actions seem to be consistent with the Rule of Two.
I seem to remember the opening crawl of the KOTOR game stating that Malak was the "Last Surviving Apprentice of Darth Revan", which leads me to believe Revan had more than one apprentice and Malak just managed to outlast the others...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by D-FENS
I seem to remember the opening crawl of the KOTOR game stating that Malak was the "Last Surviving Apprentice of Darth Revan", which leads me to believe Revan had more than one apprentice and Malak just managed to outlast the others...
Show me

kotorfan
Originally posted by Publius II
She doesn't have to surpass him to kill him.

yeah but I thought she said she wanted to get all his power and learn as much from him as possible.

Darth Truculent
A Sith Lord can train others in the darkside, but they are not Sith. Mara wasn't Sith, Galen wasn't Sith and neither was Ventress. They were pawns to be used for a purpose and then discarded. The Sith Master only chose the strongest Force-adept to become his or her apprentice.

Major Valerian
The fact that you think they are not Sith doesn't mean they actually aren't, you know. At least in Galen's case. And, each and everyone of Palpatine's apprentices were a 'pawn to be used for a purpose and then discarded', and that clearly doesn't mean they were not Sith. You have no point.

We know almost nothing about dark siders working under Revan and Malak; the only thing we can use to know they were actually considered Sith was the 'Sith apprentice', 'Sith master' titles given to them in the game. If that's somehow valid, then they are Sith. If not, then we cannot know.

D-FENS
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Show me http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ Star_Wars:_Knights_of_the_Old_Republic#Opening_cra
wl

Major Valerian
Originally posted by Major Valerian
The fact that you think they are not Sith doesn't mean they actually aren't, you know. At least in Galen's case. And, each and everyone of Palpatine's apprentices were a 'pawn to be used for a purpose and then discarded', and that clearly doesn't mean they were not Sith. You have no point.

We know almost nothing about dark siders working under Revan and Malak; the only thing we can use to know they were actually considered Sith was the 'Sith apprentice', 'Sith master' titles given to them in the game. If that's somehow valid, then they are Sith. If not, then we cannot know.

Allankles
Originally posted by Darth Truculent
A Sith Lord can train others in the darkside, but they are not Sith. Mara wasn't Sith, Galen wasn't Sith and neither was Ventress. They were pawns to be used for a purpose and then discarded. The Sith Master only chose the strongest Force-adept to become his or her apprentice.

In Kotor there were Sith Masters in every academy who were responsible for training the new members of the Sith Order.

In Kotor 1 alone, you have Uthar and Jorak (who was Sith almost 40 yrs before Malak and Revan came along). Also Yuthura was apprentice to a Sith, so she could be considered a member of the order too.

Revan also had Sith Lords onboard his flagship like Darth Voren.

Darth Sexy
Darth Voren? Where are you getting this information?

Publius II
According to Wookiepedia, he's in some sort of RPG scenario.

Allankles
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Darth Voren? Where are you getting this information?

He's in some RPG about Revan's capture, run into it by accident.

I also found out that Vima Sunrider was one of the Exile's masters.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Allankles
He's in some RPG about Revan's capture, run into it by accident.

I also found out that Vima Sunrider was one of the Exile's masters.

Where are you getting this?

Darth Truculent
In KOTOR2 in Freedon Nadd's tomb there was a "Sith Lord" - but he was more like the ones in Brotherhood of Darkness. None of them would stand a chance against Malak at all or Revan. Traya said Sith is a "title" - Darth Maul was a Sith Lord. Count Dooku was a Sith Lord, but they were used only for a purpose. Sidious wanted Anakin and he used them to get him. The Sith you spoke of Voren and Sunrider were used to gain Revan.

Publius II
WTF are you talking about?

Allankles
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Where are you getting this?

Darth Voren is from an RPG about Revan's capture (The Betrayal of Darth Revan).

Vima Sunrider being one of the Exile's mentors is from the Kotor Campaign Guide.

Darth Sexy
Interesting. Must be new material.

Darth Truculent
Sorry people - Numa Numa is confusing my head. Maybe I should turn it off.

SIDIOUS 66
What is numa numa?

Publius II
... Are you kidding me?

SIDIOUS 66
Nope. Dead serious. What is it?

Publius II
Is Googling stuff beyond you people?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60og9gwKh1o

Elite Hunter
Haha, that video was hilarious Faunus.

Red Nemesis
What do you mean "you people"?

Publius II
What do you mean, "you people"?

Elite Hunter
Here's a summary of the book that I found here: http://www.starwars.com//vault/books/news20090219.html


The Sith are gone -- all except Darth Bane, creator of the "Rule of Two," which states that the new Sith Order will consist of only two: a Master and an apprentice. But how does one train an apprentice whose ultimate goal -- and proof of success -- must be to kill the Master?

Darth Bane is beginning to suffer the effects of drawing heavily on the dark side of the Force for so many years. At the same time, he's beginning to doubt his apprentice, Zannah, because she hasn't yet tried to kill him and take his power. Is she weak? Unworthy of being his apprentice? When he learns of an ancient Sith artifact that might hold the secret to immortal life, he heads out in search of it alone. But Zannah is anything but weak, and now that she has glimpsed his worries, she knows that the time is ripe to take him on. The Forces of evil will clash in spectacular battle, with the future of the Sith hanging in the balance!

Lightsnake
Oh, man...eternal life now, huh?

Congrats, Bane. You're dead. Of course it's frustrating to hear he may not be at his best if Zannah kills him.

Happy_Sith
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Here's a summary of the book that I found here: http://www.starwars.com//vault/books/news20090219.html


The Sith are gone -- all except Darth Bane, creator of the "Rule of Two," which states that the new Sith Order will consist of only two: a Master and an apprentice. But how does one train an apprentice whose ultimate goal -- and proof of success -- must be to kill the Master?

Darth Bane is beginning to suffer the effects of drawing heavily on the dark side of the Force for so many years. At the same time, he's beginning to doubt his apprentice, Zannah, because she hasn't yet tried to kill him and take his power. Is she weak? Unworthy of being his apprentice? When he learns of an ancient Sith artifact that might hold the secret to immortal life, he heads out in search of it alone. But Zannah is anything but weak, and now that she has glimpsed his worries, she knows that the time is ripe to take him on. The Forces of evil will clash in spectacular battle, with the future of the Sith hanging in the balance!

Cool! I love how single-minded and determined Bane is, and I will be sad when he dies.

DarthLazious
I can't to get this book and I hope they make more books for Past Sith and Jedi alike so we can know all about them.

LordPrydon
Excellent. The first two books were rather good.

DarthLazious
Indeed.

CadoAngelus
Is the new book coming out surposed to be the last in the Bane series? it would be a shame if it is...

they could put more into it, if they put their minds to it...carry on with a few more books

Nephthys
Nah, Lightsnakes head woulda exploded.

darthbanelives
Well i usually post on jedi council forums but i see the spoilers havent reached this site. I read the book in november(managed to get it from a friend early) and there is a twist. Bane lives and finds the secret to eternal life

darthbanelives
Well i usually post on jedi council forums but i see the spoilers havent reached this site. I read the book in november and there is a twist. Bane lives and finds the secret to eternal life

truejedi
they reached already. thanks anyway though.

Weltall
Could Bane be Abeloth? That would be so awesome. big grin

darthbanelives
They reached already? I couldnt find where it says it.

truejedi
we talked about it a bit on the vs. forum. Only one of us has read the book yet though, i think, so we were going to wait till we got the actual quotes to decide how that affected Bane's power level.

we are a bit anal with exact wording as opposed to clearly laid out concepts on these here boards. But welcome!

darthbanelives
ohhh i see, could i get the link? i'd like to know what other people are saying, so far i'm the only person i know of who has read it, it's nice to know someone else has.

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