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Count Nefaria- Maximum

VS

Superman- current

I think this has been done.
I'll go with Supes.

Originally posted by tsscls
I think this has been done.
I'll go with Supes.

I searched and it wasn't there.

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
I searched and it wasn't there.
Sorry, it was in a team setting.
i still say supes.

Did the count beat the avengers along with thor? Did the avengers dogpile superman after he koed thor and could barely stand? I go with the count after a semi hard fight because it was stated that the count could fight for weeks and supes has been proven to go down fast in a very short time when he fights heavy hitters.

Originally posted by james2099
Did the count beat the avengers along with thor? Did the avengers dogpile superman after he koed thor and could barely stand? I go with the count after a semi hard fight because it was stated that the count could fight for weeks and supes has been proven to go down fast in a very short time when he fights heavy hitters.

Yes, Nefaria has beaten the Avengers with Wonder Man, Iron-Man, Vision and Thor as the heavy-hitters.

He has also beaten West Coast Avengers line-ups who were comprably as powerful.

Nefaria wins

CN

I don't think so. I don't see this guy as more powerful than Superman. He got dropped by Vision piledriving him into the ground from a mile up.

Originally posted by james2099
Did the count beat the avengers along with thor? Did the avengers dogpile superman after he koed thor and could barely stand? I go with the count after a semi hard fight because it was stated that the count could fight for weeks and supes has been proven to go down fast in a very short time when he fights heavy hitters.

And the same guy who wrote that crossover also said Superman was stronger than Nefaria. Where are you going with this?

6/10 for Superman. Guys been churning out sub pre crisis feats lately.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
And the same guy who wrote that crossover also said Superman was stronger than Nefaria. Where are you going with this?

6/10 for Superman. Guys been churning out sub pre crisis feats lately. Kind of like how another writer said that no man of steel can beat supreme?

There's a slight difference between quoting the writer of a semi canon crossover you brought up and using the a line from an interview about a superman pastiche owned by another company.

Nefaria

Superman

CN just another Superman clone, Ultraman clone ?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Superman

CN just another Superman clone, Ultraman clone ?

Count Nefaria is very tough. He beat all the Avengers including Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision and Thor. He stopped Thor's hammer. hundred times faster than Quicksilver and the Whizzer. Yep, he is stronger than Superman and more ruthless.

And as far as I know JLA/Avengers IS canon.

Speed KILLS. He has nothing that puts him over Superman in terms of strength or durability.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Speed KILLS. He has nothing that puts him over Superman in terms of strength or durability.
When has Supes taken a punch from someone with Thor's level of strength/punching power without so much as flinching(or something similar)?

Irrelevant. Nefaria will never hit him.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Irrelevant. Nefaria will never hit him.
How is it irrelevant when I'm challenging this...

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Speed KILLS. He has nothing that puts him over Superman in terms of strength or durability.

He may flinch, but he's taken hits from Zod, Darkseid, Martian Manhunter, White martians, Wonder Woman, Orion, do I really have to list this?

Weren't they depicted as squaring off in JLA/Avengers, and a few pages later Superman was already fighting somebody else ?

Anyway, Supes ftw. Superior in pretty much every category.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Irrelevant. Nefaria will never hit him.

Sometimes these posts make no sense. It's been stated that CN has taken on a strong roster of Avengers (Earth's mightiest heroes) and won, yet there are still a few out there saying he could never come close to Superman. Why don't we turn the question around. Could Superman defeat that same team of Avengers?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He may flinch, but he's taken hits from Zod, Darkseid, Martian Manhunter, White martians, Wonder Woman, Orion, do I really have to list this?
The "without flinching" part is what makes the feat so impressive. If he was never able to take a shot from those people without flinching then it doesn't equal Neferia's feat.

And it occurs to me that the feat I'm talking about may be being misunderstood so I'll clarify so no one thinks I'm trying to misrepresent things. I'm not talking about Neferia actually taking a shot from Thor without flinching, I'm talking about his taking one from classic Wonderman(who was just shy of Thor's level of strength but hit with power comparable to Thor's hammer).

Superman has pulled the 'without flinching' move on quite a few opponents. For example, against DoS Doomsday, and that didn't mean that he was vastly superior in strength/durability to his opponent. Not at all, actually.

And if we start comparing durability/strength feats, it'll end badly for Nefaria.

Originally posted by Brak Dayton
Sometimes these posts make no sense. It's been stated that CN has taken on a strong roster of Avengers (Earth's mightiest heroes) and won, yet there are still a few out there saying he could never come close to Superman. Why don't we turn the question around. Could Superman defeat that same team of Avengers?

What was that team? Vision, Wonderman, Thor, Scarlet *****, and who else?

Yeah, I can easily see Superman mowing them down. They just can't hit him.

That's one of countless feats. And that was a much weaker Superman.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
What was that team? Vision, Wonderman, Thor, Scarlet *****, and who else?

Yeah, I can easily see Superman mowing them down. They just can't hit him.
Neferia didn't survive via speed, he just kept taking everything they had. If you don't think Supes could do the same, then this statement...
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Speed KILLS. He has nothing that puts him over Superman in terms of strength or durability.

...seems more than a little inaccurate.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
That's one of countless feats. And that was a much weaker Superman.

Countless or imaginary? If it's happened so often you shouldn't have any trouble finding at least one example.

Originally posted by darthgoober
DD was getting stronger as the fight went on, I'm willing to bet that Supes was stronger than he at that point. And Classic Thor was superior to DOS Supes(and therefor DD) in strength by a fair share.

Immediatley after doing that, Superman was sent flying by being hit with such a force that he said he doesn't know if he's ever been hit that hard. He then proceeded with the beating of Superman and the rest of the Justice League, taking their combined assault and trashing multiple opponents at once.

You missed my point. I'm not stating that DoS Doomsday is as strong as Thor, since that's irrelevant. I'm using this example to prove that even if you are taking a hit without flinching, it doesn't make you that far off from your opponent, thus Nefaria doing it isn't supposed to make me go "OMGWOW".

Feat by feat, Superman is better in every category.

Anyhow, you're welcomed to present the arguments in Nefaria's favour, and I'll adress them tomorrow.

Originally posted by Brak Dayton
Count Nefaria is very tough. He beat all the Avengers including Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision and Thor. He stopped Thor's hammer. hundred times faster than Quicksilver and the Whizzer. Yep, he is stronger than Superman and more ruthless.

And as far as I know JLA/Avengers IS canon.

Originally posted by Galvaclaw
And the same guy who wrote that crossover also said Superman was stronger than Nefaria. Where are you going with this?

6/10 for Superman. Guys been churning out sub pre crisis feats lately.

This is kinda lopsided...

CN was introduced as a team wrecking villain. They rarely have low showings. Look at Thanos, Konvikt, Amazo, etc. They come in embarass a team of heroes and then get shuffled off using some plot device.

If Nefaria appeared more regularly, he would no doubt have some lower showings to give a more well rounded average. But at this point we are looking at:

Superman- lots of low showings over the years
Nefaria- no low showings

And?

Superman wins

Originally posted by darthgoober
You seem to be forgetting that DD was still partially tied up when Supes was unphased by DD's punch. DD was able to sent him flying with a kick afterwards like that because his legs weren't bound. Taking a punch without flinching in the slightest from someone with Thor and classic Wonderman's strength is incredibly impressive, just as it would be impressive if someone didn't bat an eye after taking a punch from Supes.

And while Supes high end feats are unquestionably more impressive(everyone in the "High Herald" category has at least one or two feats that make you stop and say WTF) the fact of the matter is that he's got plenty of low ended feats that bring his average down from those levels. Count Neferia lacks low ended feats like that except for periods of being depowered so his high end feats ARE his average. He's appeared two times at full power to my knowledge, in one he went through an extended battle with the Avengers(including Thor) and the other he fought an extended battle against the Avengers and the Thunderbolts. If you're claiming that Supes average display of durability is on par with those kinds of things then at I'd be happy to take a look at the evidence to support it.

He had one hand tied up, which was freed once they all attacked him in unison. But I don't see how that's relevant to Superman being unphased by the punch, unless you're suggesting that having his other hand tied up drastically reduced the power of the other punch. Yes, what Nefaria did is impressive, but not certainly soemthing that definitely puts him above Superman, as Superman is also quite a bit above the other two when it comes to strength. The main point is, and I repeat, that the feat is impressive, but not impressive enough to definitely put him above Superman in terms of durability.

Yes, he does have low feats, but that is because he's an earth-bound hero, with thousands of appearances. And it's also made quite clear that he holds back pretty much 99% of the time. I can show you fights, for example, where he is getting knocked around a lot, yet once he gets serious (and by serious I mean not underestimating his opponent, not going 'all out') he quite literally handles them with ease and one-shots them.

Nefaria at his best is really stronger and tuffer than Superman. But that's at his very best.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Nefaria at his best is really stronger and tuffer than Superman. But that's at his very best. Is his avg different than his best?

Originally posted by Mindset
Is his avg different than his best?
HE's been pwned by Vision at 90 tons. That isn't his best. That isn't his average either. That's why I said at his best. From what I remember of him, he's taken shots from Thor's hammer without so much as budging.

Originally posted by fangirl101
HE's been pwned by Vision at 90 tons. That isn't his best. That isn't his average either. That's why I said at his best. From what I remember of him, he's taken shots from Thor's hammer without so much as budging.
He got taken out by the Vision after an extended battle with the Avengers, in fact it was in that same fight that he was taking shots from Thor's hammer. That's not an instance of him being portrayed as less powerful, that's him being worn down after a long fight...

Well what is his avg?

Originally posted by Mindset
Well what is his avg?
Pretty high. In his fight with the Avengers/Thunderbolts Hank Pym said that even with Thor fighting with them the Avengers beating Neferia was a fluke(or something along those lines) the first time around.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If Supes has never done the same thing despite repeated chances(and I'm pretty sure that he's had plenty of chances to take a punch from someone on Thor's level) then it DOES put him above Supes durability wise. And yeah, I'm willing to bet that the reduced mobility from having one arm tied behind your back like that would affect your punching power.

So Superman has to do something another character has done, in this case take punches without flinching from Wonderman level strength characters, in order for him to be superior to Count Nefaria in durability, eventough he has durability feats far superior to what Count Nefaria has shown ? What kind of idiocy is that ? I just pointed out why reciving a punch from a powerfull opponent without flinching isn't overly impressive, thus the Doomsday example, yet you go on how this showing supposdley prove how much greater than Superman Nefaria is.

Do you want me to ask you to show me Nefaria doing some of the stuff Superman has done. How about escaping a black hole ? Oh yeah, I forgot, he had problems with a portal Thor was sucking him in. Also funny how he wasn't no-selling Wonderman with Captain America's shield, eh ? Or how about Iron Man while amping his armour ? Or Vision. Or Thor. See where this can go ?

Originally posted by darthgoober
And by the same token, Supes has more feats because "he's an earth-bound hero, with thousands of appearances". If we're going to hold true to the characters themselves then we have to look at how they're typically portrayed rather than their high end feats. Supes's average puts him somewhere on Thor's level in the strength/durability department, Neferia's average puts him above it.


How convenient of you to ignore the holding back part, which was one of my main points on why he has more low-showings, and he's not wtfpwning everybody at insane levels, that have been shown he can achieve, eh? Per forum rules, he will operate at a level that Count Nefaria hasn't proven he can. He has showings proving that he is faster, stronger, more durable. I know it, and you even admit it. You're bringing up the 'he doesn't operate at those levels on average thus I'm going to put him at a level that fits me' in order to have Nefaria win, even after I've explained why he doesn't always operate at that level, eventough he has proven that he can. It doesn't work that way.

How often do we hear Superman say that he's holding back or that he was trying not to kill someone or critically injure them?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldOfCardboardSpeech

I've posted this before, but this speech is not only quitessential Superman, it's one of the greatest explanations for why Superman has such variable levels.

"That man won't quit as long as he can still draw a breath. None of my teammates will. Me? I've got a different problem. I feel like I live in a world made of... cardboard, always taking constant care not to break something, to break someone. Never allowing myself to lose control even for a moment, or someone could die. But you can take it, can't you, big man? What we have here is a rare opportunity for me to cut loose and show you just how powerful I really am."

ujnq2D4PtvI

God I love that episode.

Superman Ftw.

LOL @ this new "averages" angle.

Originally posted by Brak Dayton
Count Nefaria is very tough. He beat all the Avengers including Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision and Thor. He stopped Thor's hammer. hundred times faster than Quicksilver and the Whizzer. Yep, he is stronger than Superman and more ruthless.

And as far as I know JLA/Avengers IS canon. I know Count Nefaria drained powers to attain his max state, but did he continue to drain powers afterwards while in his max state?

JLA/Avengers is not canon, for very obvious reasons.

Originally posted by Avlon
Superman Ftw.

LOL @ this new "averages" angle. Superman cannot replicate neferias battle with the avengers includong thor. He cannot beat nefaria for the majority.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I know Count Nefaria drained powers to attain his max state, but did he continue to drain powers afterwards while in his max state?

JLA/Avengers is not canon, for very obvious reasons. you can say it till ur. Blue. Avengers jla is canon. No matter how many times u say its not.

Originally posted by fangirl101
you can say it till ur. Blue. Avengers jla is canon. No matter how many times u say its not. No matter how many times you say it is in self-serving arguments, it is not canon. The scattered artifacts' locations makes JLA/Avengers impossible just as a canon story. Forget the stupidity that some of the fights showed. Most of the artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate stage in history when JLA/Avengers supposedly took place. Nuff said.

Originally posted by darthgoober


We don't go strictly by high end feats on KMC, we go by the average

*sigh* been trying to tell people this shit for ages.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Superman cannot replicate neferias battle with the avengers includong thor. He cannot beat nefaria for the majority.

Every character has some kind of team busting feat at some point in their career.

Nefaria can't replicate most of Superman's feats.

Do you think Nefaria can match and beat DS in a fight?

None the less, the cosmic egg containing Krona was featured in JLA and it is canon for DC.

Marvel can figure out their own damn continuity and canon. durfist

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No matter how many times you say it is in self-serving arguments, it is not canon.

By the way I dont think non-canon sources are automatically rejected. If you can prove that the characters are like their mainstream counterparts it should be ok, especially if you have a canon source to back it up.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No matter how many times you say it is in self-serving arguments, it is not canon. The scattered artifacts' locations makes JLA/Avengers impossible just as a canon story. Forget the stupidity that some of the fights showed. Most of the artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate stage in history when JLA/Avengers supposedly took place. Nuff said.

It's canon. Stupidity of SMVFL stuff aside, it happened.

Not everyone takes continuity seriously or tries to piece together "facts" to form the "conclusions" that are accepted by individual fans or comic boards. The public couldn't care less. They just want to see fisticuff's and the good guys win at the end.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
By the way I dont think non-canon sources are automatically rejected. If you can prove that the characters are like their mainstream counterparts it should be ok, especially if you have a canon source to back it up.

For once we agree. The rules basically state that if a crossover does something that is smvfl then it can't be used. However, at the same time they do state no noncanon sources. Then again, posters opinions are noncanon as well....

Superman wins.

Originally posted by Avlon
Every character has some kind of team busting feat at some point in their career.

Nefaria can't replicate most of Superman's feats.

Do you think Nefaria can match and beat DS in a fight? um superman can't even match ds in a fight. Only the most ridiculous superman fanboys actually think supes can. So ur example fails.

Originally posted by Avlon


However, at the same time they do state no noncanon sources.

Yeah but it does state there are rare exceptions. Obvoulsy the reason for this is because sometimes non-canon sources tend to have like you say PIS or SvFL. If not then it should be ok.

Originally posted by fangirl101
um superman can't even match ds in a fight. Only the most ridiculous superman fanboys actually think supes can. So ur example fails.

Yea, it's not like Supes hasn't beaten him in h2h.

Get over it, it's happened.

And you still haven't answered my question. Can Nefaria beat DS in a fight?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
None the less, the cosmic egg containing Krona was featured in JLA and it is canon for DC.

Marvel can figure out their own damn continuity and canon. durfist Both companies have to recognize it. When Batman and Spawn had their crossover, Batman's batarang to his face and the subsequent shoelace face was kept and recognized by Spawn for a long time. Batman's meeting with Spawn was never canonized in DC continuity.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
By the way I dont think non-canon sources are automatically rejected. If you can prove that the characters are like their mainstream counterparts it should be ok, especially if you have a canon source to back it up.
Originally posted by Avlon
It's canon. Stupidity of SMVFL stuff aside, it happened.

Not everyone takes continuity seriously or tries to piece together "facts" to form the "conclusions" that are accepted by individual fans or comic boards. The public couldn't care less. They just want to see fisticuff's and the good guys win at the end.

For once we agree. The rules basically state that if a crossover does something that is smvfl then it can't be used. However, at the same time they do state no noncanon sources. Then again, posters opinions are noncanon as well.... If the adventure could never have happened, then it can't be canon. Canonicity deals with history. If it happened, it happened, whether or not it includes nonsensical instances during fights. We have PIS to deal with nonsensical instances happening during fights, etc. We have the non-canon rules to deal with crossovers, what if's, alternate futures, etc.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah but it does state there are rare exceptions. Obvoulsy the reason for this is because sometimes non-canon sources tend to have like you say PIS or SvFL. If not then it should be ok.

People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what.

Originally posted by Avlon
People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

I think the stars are in alignment...I totally agree (eventhough I dont always agree with you).

Originally posted by Avlon

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what.

Yeah I guess so...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If the adventure could never have happened, then it can't be canon. Canonicity deals with history. If it happened, it happened, whether or not it includes nonsensical instances during fights. We have PIS to deal with nonsensical instances happening during fights, etc. We have the non-canon rules to deal with crossovers, what if's, alternate futures, etc.

What's been shown/stated in print is proof enough. Obviously due to the nature of IP and cross company politics, what's shown/referred to afterwards has to be tippy toed around for obvious legal reasons.

Originally posted by Avlon
People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what. I agree.

Originally posted by Avlon
People dissect things to such ridiculous extremes now (things that the authors themselves don't even think about) that it's funny just seeing some of the things that are conjured up.

An xover has just as much chance as a regular comic for either fair portrayal or horrible showings. After all, it's the very same writers who do both the canon and non-canon work. The story should come first no matter what. What are you guys talking about? We don't dismiss What If's and alternate futures and the like purely based on whether or not they make sense. Some of them make perfect sense. But we dismiss them if they are not in fact, occurences in accepted canon history. If the Infinity Gauntlet couldn't have been reassembled on Apokolips of all places, then the story couldn't have happened.

This isn't a ridiculous dissection of a story. It's just one of the most obvious holes in plot that nobody usually focuses on because they're too obsessed with how Superman fought Thor. Those artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate time in either DC or Marvel history. Therefore, the story itself couldn't have happened unless it was an alternate universe. And alternate universes are explicitly not canon. It's as simple as that.

I see this thread getting closed soon.

There are a few posters who have no more chances that still continue with their trollish posting.

You all have been given fair warning.

Originally posted by fangirl101
um superman can't even match ds in a fight. Only the most ridiculous superman fanboys actually think supes can. So ur example fails. Superman is superior to Ds in a hand to hand fight. Gone are the days of Ds slapping superman around.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you guys talking about? We don't dismiss What If's and alternate futures and the like purely based on whether or not they make sense. Some of them make perfect sense. But we dismiss them if they are not in fact, occurences in accepted canon history.

I was under the impression one of the reasons was that it doesnt make sense. It does state in the rules there are exceptions I suspect thats what those maybe.

Logically the story making sense should be the most important thing because eventhough it never happened it still demonstrates capability.

A simulation may not be real but it still can be used to predict a real event.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you guys talking about? We don't dismiss What If's and alternate futures and the like purely based on whether or not they make sense. Some of them make perfect sense. But we dismiss them if they are not in fact, occurences in accepted canon history. If the Infinity Gauntlet couldn't have been reassembled on Apokolips of all places, then the story couldn't have happened.

Who is we? Are you speaking for everyone? Guess everyone must be in perfect adherence to the same opinion...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This isn't a ridiculous dissection of a story. It's just one of the most obvious holes in plot that nobody usually focuses on because they're too obsessed with how Superman fought Thor. Those artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate time in either DC or Marvel history. Therefore, the story itself couldn't have happened unless it was an alternate universe. And alternate universes are explicitly not canon. It's as simple as that.

Again....

Originally posted by Avlon
What's been shown/stated in print is proof enough. Obviously due to the nature of IP and cross company politics, what's shown/referred to afterwards has to be tippy toed around for obvious legal reasons.

In addition... A lot of times, things that are supposedly canon still don't make sense even within an ongoing series.

Even if it was noncanon...at the end it's your noncanon opinion vs the authors.

Jla avengers is canon period. There is a marvel handbook that mentions it and the current trinity continuation of that.

Which one?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I was under the impression one of the reasons was that it doesnt make sense. It does state in the rules there are exceptions I suspect thats what those maybe.

Logically the story making sense should be the most important thing because eventhough it never happened it still demonstrates capability.

A simulation may not be real but it still can be used to predict a real event. It's always been my impression that the exceptions to non-canon rules is to deal with entities like the Living Tribunal. Because it doesn't matter what alternate universe he appears in, he's in all of them. So you don't limit using alternate universes when it comes to him.

One of the main reasons we have a blanket rule for crossovers is that they usually don't make sense. And you can dismiss their canonicity purely on how ridiculous they are. JLA/Avengers doesn't make sense in many respects and makes sense in others. I agree with that. We could then use rules of PIS to dismiss certain occurrences... if it were canon. But it's not canon because the whole story happens in an alternate universe.

Bottom-line is, canonicity deals with history. Punisher/Batman clearly occurs in an alternate universe. Because in that universe, New York and Gotham City exist in the United States and both characters have heard of each other before they even meet. Obviously, that could never happen in the proper DC or Marvel Universe. It happens in an alternate universe. It had to have happened in an alternate universe. And alternate universes are not canon. Explicit bright-line rule. Same thing with JLA/Avengers. Those artifacts couldn't have been where they were. At all. Alternate universe.

You want to use it to illustrate what you would think happen? That's fine. I've always liked how Chuck Dixon portrayed Batman beating on Punisher in their crossover. Most people agree. So I'll reference it in my discussion with people who agree with me. But I'm not going to hold it as the end-all be-all, canon instance, citable evidence of what actually occurred when I debate with another person who disagrees that's how it should have went down. And JLA/Avengers is one of the most hotly debated crossovers ever. It's not canon. Use it, talk about it. Don't hold it against other people as citable evidence in a debate. That wasn't them. That was an alternate universe(s) filled with alternate versions of those characters.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Jla avengers is canon period. There is a marvel handbook that mentions it and the current trinity continuation of that. Christ. It's not canon. It happens in an alternate universe where those artifacts happened to be where they were. Whether you want to rely on an ambiguous construction of the crossover rule is irrelevant. It's an alternate universe. Alternate characters. Alternate universes/future are absolutely not-citable as evidence because those stories didn't really involve our actual current versions of characters we usually use. Bright-line rule.

Nefaria punches him in the face.

Superman won't be expecting that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Christ. It's not canon. It happens in an alternate universe where those artifacts happened to be where they were. Whether you want to rely on an ambiguous construction of the crossover rule is irrelevant. It's an alternate universe. Alternate characters. Alternate universes/future are absolutely not-citable as evidence because those stories didn't really involve our actual current versions of characters we usually use. Bright-line rule. um lulz. It happened in a combination reality of eternity and kismet. As far as I know there is only one of each in totality. U can scream till ur blue in the face its canon recognized by both companies.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Jla avengers is canon period. There is a marvel handbook that mentions it and the current trinity continuation of that.

...But handbooks are not canon....

I've never seen the handbook this was mentioned in...

Can someone show me it, so I can ignore it even farther?

Originally posted by Mekrob
I've never seen the handbook this was mentioned in...

Can someone show me it, so I can ignore it even farther?

Originally posted by fangirl101
um lulz. It happened in a combination reality of eternity and kismet. As far as I know there is only one of each in totality. U can scream till ur blue in the face its canon recognized by both companies. facepalm

You're completely incorrect. You need to reread JLA/Avengers again. The combination reality of Eternity and Kismet doesn't happen until after the artifacts have been gathered and Grandmaster uses them to merge the two realities. The Avengers and JLA go running around in each other's universes and their own universes to recover the scattered artifacts before the merged reality.

And I'd appreciate it if you don't mischaracterize me as screaming. As if screaming would take away the truth of my statements. I'm not screaming. I'm exasperrated at having to explain such obvious and indisputable facts to people who are resistant to the rules simply because it serves their own opinions. You're saying it's canon because it makes sense to you (but not to others) and even though the adventure clearly happens in alternate universe(s) and there's some vague reference in a handbook? Batman/Punisher makes perfect sense to me except it happens in an alternate universe. I wouldn't use a vague reference in one company's handbook to support it's canonicity.

Gotham IS New York, or at least a older name for it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
facepalm

You're completely incorrect. You need to reread JLA/Avengers again. The combination reality of Eternity and Kismet doesn't happen until after the artifacts have been gathered and Grandmaster uses them to merge the two realities. The Avengers and JLA go running around in each other's universes and their own universes to recover the scattered artifacts before the merged reality.

And I'd appreciate it if you don't mischaracterize me as screaming. As if screaming would take away the truth of my statements. I'm not screaming. I'm exasperrated at having to explain such obvious and indisputable facts to people who are resistant to the rules simply because it serves their own opinions. You're saying it's canon because it makes sense to you (but not to others) and even though the adventure clearly happens in alternate universe(s) and there's some vague reference in a handbook? Batman/Punisher makes perfect sense to me except it happens in an alternate universe. I wouldn't use a vague reference in one company's handbook to support it's canonicity. um there r stories produced by the singular co.s that don't always add up. The storu is canon. Period. No amount of hate or disessection will change that. The adventure cleary happened in the current verses. That is obvious as they had to figure out a way to bring the dead guys back thru time flucations. U can post blobs of text till tomorrow and the story will still be canon. Approved by both dc and marvel.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Gotham IS New York, or at least a older name for it. facepalm

The idea of Gotham may be New York, yes, but neither on Earth-0 or the 616 Marvel Universe is that true. The Statue of Liberty is not in Gotham as far as I recall. Either way, in Batman/Punisher they are two separate and distinct locations in that alternate universe. Batman pretty much tells him to get out of Gotham and go back to New York and Punisher acquiesces.

Dick was living in New York, he just came back to Gotham since Bruce disappeared, they are obviously 2 separate places.

Originally posted by fangirl101
um there r stories produced by the singular co.s that don't always add up. The storu is canon. Period. No amount of hate or disessection will change that. The adventure cleary happened in the current verses. That is obvious as they had to figure out a way to bring the dead guys back thru time flucations. U can post blobs of text till tomorrow and the story will still be canon. Approved by both dc and marvel. facepalm

The story occurs in very similar but absolutely alternate universes. Who cares if they were almost similar? Batman in the Punisher/Batman story was just coming back from having his back broken by Bane. Just because it references canon events doesn't make the god damn story canon! So no, bringing back dead guys (which they'd also have to do in an extremely similar analogue alternate universe) does NOT make it obviously canon. Jebus.

Whether or not it is a crossover is irrelevant. Whether or not there are feats that scream PIS is irrelevant. The adventure clearly happens in alternate universes. Get over it. Stop overgeneralizing on ambiguities and handbooks and ignoring the simple truth: IT'S NOT CANON.

Originally posted by Avlon
Yea, it's not like Supes hasn't beaten him in h2h.

Get over it, it's happened.

And you still haven't answered my question. Can Nefaria beat DS in a fight?
http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supermansucks22ew2.jpg
http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=supermansucks22ew2.jpghttp://img126.imageshack.us/img126/6168/supermansucks21ar1.jpg

Badabing and I have discussed this at length, and have decided to make an addition to the rules:



I'm sure there are plenty of other sources you can use to make on topic arguments, guys.

Originally posted by Raoul
Badabing and I have discussed this at length, and have decided to make an addition to the rules:



I'm sure there are plenty of other sources you can use to make on topic arguments, guys.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
facepalm

The story occurs in very similar but absolutely alternate universes. Who cares if they were almost similar? Batman in the Punisher/Batman story was just coming back from having his back broken by Bane. Just because it references canon events doesn't make the god damn story canon! So no, bringing back dead guys (which they'd also have to do in an extremely similar analogue alternate universe) does NOT make it obviously canon. Jebus.

Whether or not it is a crossover is irrelevant. Whether or not there are feats that scream PIS is irrelevant. The adventure clearly happens in alternate universes. Get over it. Stop overgeneralizing on ambiguities and handbooks and ignoring the simple truth: IT'S NOT CANON. And it's still canon lulz. The Krona Egg which the cosmic egg rights are owned by marvel are enough that both companies recognize this. Sorry you feel the way you do. But your feelings dont' dictate what is reality.

Originally posted by Raoul
Badabing and I have discussed this at length, and have decided to make an addition to the rules:



I'm sure there are plenty of other sources you can use to make on topic arguments, guys. Well I guess we can just screw Trinity since the Krona Egg comes from the JLA Avengers story which happens to be part of it's continuity. No more Trinity Discussions either since you have effectively barred using Part of it's continuity for disccussion. Thanks for the heads up. Thought policing is where the forum is headed? Pretty soon the forum will ban people who don't agree with the majority.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Well I guess we can just screw Trinity since the Krona Egg comes from the JLA Avengers story which happens to be part of it's continuity. No more Trinity Discussions either since you have effectively barred using Part of it's continuity for disccussion. Thanks for the heads up. Thought policing is where the forum is headed? Pretty soon the forum will ban people who don't agree with the majority. *waits anxiously for your ban* droolio

" The Statue of Liberty is not in Gotham as far as I recall"

Lady Gotham was referenced in the animated cartoon a few times, not sure about the comics.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Well I guess we can just screw Trinity since the Krona Egg comes from the JLA Avengers story which happens to be part of it's continuity. No more Trinity Discussions either since you have effectively barred using Part of it's continuity for disccussion. Thanks for the heads up. Thought policing is where the forum is headed? Pretty soon the forum will ban people who don't agree with the majority.

That's not what it is at all. Crossovers in general are looked on pretty unfavourably, and in most cases, its warranted. This is a Count Nefaria Vs Superman fight. I'm sure there are other comics people can use to make their arguments.

We're talking about one more crossover to complete the bunch, thats all. We're not banning arcs are storylines exclusive to either company, of which there are plenty.

remember when people wanted wolverine origins banned? it didn't happen, and it won't happen. crossovers are the exception, not the rule.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
" The Statue of Liberty is not in Gotham as far as I recall"

Lady Gotham was referenced in the animated cartoon a few times, not sure about the comics. That's cool, Gotham is NOT New York though.

Do you read Nightwing? Dick went back to Gotham from New York in the last Nightwing comic.

Originally posted by Raoul
That's not what it is at all. Crossovers in general are looked on pretty unfavourably, and in most cases, its warranted. This is a Count Nefaria Vs Superman fight. I'm sure there are other comics people can use to make their arguments.

We're talking about one more crossover to complete the bunch, thats all. We're not banning arcs are storylines exclusive to either company, of which there are plenty.

remember when people wanted wolverine origins banned? it didn't happen, and it won't happen. crossovers are the exception, not the rule. When you ban The JLA Cross over which is canon per the companies themselves, then you ban feats for characters on both sides that are valid to the characters. I like the Superman Thor Fight. I like the Wondy scene with Quasar. I like the Monica Rambeau GL thing. Those are all things that are agreeable to use in debates and make sense.

^ Batman catching Punisher's left hook makes sense. But that wasn't actually New Earth Batman or 616 Punisher though. Just drop it. However the Mods decided the way they decided is irrelevant. It's the rules now and IMHO as you know, technically speaking, it's always been the rules.
Originally posted by Raoul
That's not what it is at all. Crossovers in general are looked on pretty unfavourably, and in most cases, its warranted. This is a Count Nefaria Vs Superman fight. I'm sure there are other comics people can use to make their arguments.

We're talking about one more crossover to complete the bunch, thats all. We're not banning arcs are storylines exclusive to either company, of which there are plenty.

remember when people wanted wolverine origins banned? it didn't happen, and it won't happen. crossovers are the exception, not the rule.

Back to the topic on hand, did maxed out Count Nefaria further use his power draining abilities? If not, was he to able to?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
:up

Back to the topic on hand, did maxed out Count Nefaria further use his power draining abilities? If not, was he to able to? Lulz. He's in fact saying the cross over is canon but cant' be used becuz it's too controversial. Don't get too happy. Matter of fact, I tire of your style of debate anyway. Perma Ignore.

I ALREADY GOT THAT. I'm just saying it's weird to have Gotham and New York when they're basically clones. shrug

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No matter how many times you say it is in self-serving arguments, it is not canon. The scattered artifacts' locations makes JLA/Avengers impossible just as a canon story. Forget the stupidity that some of the fights showed. Most of the artifacts couldn't have been where they were at that approximate stage in history when JLA/Avengers supposedly took place. Nuff said.

It may be a bad story, it may be illogical but it surely is canon. You may like it or not, for you it may be not canon for marvel and dc it was, you have to life with it.

Originally posted by Raoul
Badabing and I have discussed this at length, and have decided to make an addition to the rules:



I'm sure there are plenty of other sources you can use to make on topic arguments, guys.

I don't want to derail this thread even further, but I have to ask. Can it be referenced in future debates? It's obviously not primary canon, and it would be rather silly to base an entire argument on one crossover. Is it relevant at all? Will I get bant if I even mention it? ( :P )

What I'm asking really, is that, does it have any weight in an argument? Can it be used with some proof from main canon?

Originally posted by fangirl101
When you ban The JLA Cross over which is canon per the companies themselves, then you ban feats for characters on both sides that are valid to the characters. I like the Superman Thor Fight. I like the Wondy scene with Quasar. I like the Monica Rambeau GL thing. Those are all things that are agreeable to use in debates and make sense.

don't those people all have higher feats than what happened in JLA/Avengers?

It's a nice story, and i am a huge busiek fan, but bada and i just think that most of the examples in that story just don't compare when they've all gotten bigger and better.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I ALREADY GOT THAT. I'm just saying it's weird to have Gotham and New York when they're basically clones. shrug Well they are fairly close, I think it the comic it said it was a 45 minute plane ride to Gotham.

Originally posted by fangirl101
Lulz. He's in fact saying the cross over is canon but cant' be used becuz it's too controversial. Don't get too happy. Matter of fact, I tire of your style of debate anyway. Perma Ignore. He didn't say it either way. Please don't insert your own thoughts into other peopl's statements. The way he constructed his words, I thought, were very clear. Which is why I stated that however they ruled the way they ruled is irrelevant. I'm done with this topic for now, the rules are clear now. JLA/Avengers is unusable.

Did or can max Count Nefaria further drain powers?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It may be a bad story, it may be illogical but it surely is canon. You may like it or not, for you it may be not canon for marvel and dc it was, you have to life with it. When did Marvel claim it was canon, what handbook?

Originally posted by Rhinoceros
I don't want to derail this thread even further, but I have to ask. Can it be referenced in future debates? It's obviously not primary canon, and it would be rather silly to base an entire argument on one crossover. Is it relevant at all? Will I get bant if I even mention it? ( :P )

What I'm asking really, is that, does it have any weight in an argument? Can it be used with some proof from main canon?

give me an example lol...

Even though Superman has more speed; as mentioned, his reserves are lesser than that of Nefaria.

All of the slight advantages Superman has at the outset would diminish while Nefaria remains at optimal strength.

I go with Nefaria.

Ahem, Nefaria only drains IONIC powers. Not other kinds.

Superman's reserves are legendary, go blow smoke elsewhere.

Didn't CN get koed when hit with a 90ton body coming at him at the speed of sound (vision)?

^ People have already talked about how that came at the end of a drawn-out battle with all of the Avengers. Try to keep up.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ahem, Nefaria only drains IONIC powers. Not other kinds. Count Nefaria drained the powers of three different characters to gain his strength, durability and speed. The whole draining of ionic powers limitation occurs when Count Nefaria is resurrected as an ionic being. He was at his max before that. Since this thread uses a "max Count Nefaria," I think most of us have assumed we are using the incarnation before his ionic form.

^ Never mind. Apparently Count Nefaria used science to imitate the powers of the three characters when they were amped. Just reread it. My mistake. Did Bendis get it wrong when he had Count Nefaria steal away Spiderman's power during the RAFT breakout?

Most likely. srug I've never heard of him draining powers from other characters, aside from Ionics.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Batman catching Punisher's left hook makes sense.

By the way Pun was shot in both his shoulders when that happened.


Originally posted by Raoul
Badabing and I have discussed this at length, and have decided to make an addition to the rules:



I'm sure there are plenty of other sources you can use to make on topic arguments, guys.



So what are the rare exceptions? You also said some DC vs Marvel could be used

Originally posted by Mindset
When did Marvel claim it was canon, what handbook? The story was referenced in a few character bios, but didn't mention the DC characters by name. But would say something generic like "battled an emerald knight from parallell universe" Several of them were posted before, clearly referencing the JLA/Avengers. It was also written in the 'recent arcs' section of one of them.

http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=allnewofficialhandbookoic4.jpg

Here's Grandmaster's Bio.
Read the last giant paragraph.

Here, in JLA/Avengers, Pulsar -- who is able to duplicate energy, does so to the energy of GL's ring. Bottom Panel.

--Click full size on these to see better.

http://www.putfile.com/pic/7450407

Here- in he bio.
http://www.putfile.com/pic/5479438

'such as when she replicated and drained the verdant willpowered energies of an extra-dimensional emerald gladiator.'

All in all though, it probably really doesn't do much for these vs threads, as feats are what counts anyways.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=allnewofficialhandbookoic4.jpg

Here's Grandmaster's Bio.
Read the last giant paragraph.

Doesnt that make it JLA/Avengers canon then?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
By the way Pun was shot in both his shoulders when that happened.






So what are the rare exceptions? You also said some DC vs Marvel could be used

iirc, JLA/Avengers was itself the rare exception. that'll need to be edited.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=allnewofficialhandbookoic4.jpg

Here's Grandmaster's Bio.
Read the last giant paragraph.

yup, i know...

Originally posted by Juntai
All in all though, it probably really doesn't do much for these vs threads, as feats are what counts anyways.

pretty much. while jla/avengers is good, most of the content you or anyone else would use for vs competitions is outdated. superman beat thor. great. while i still think superman would beat thor, both men have come a long way since then.

primary universe feats have to come first.

^ Bye.

Going somwhere ?

^ <-- Arrow was an indication that I was responding directly to your statement that you were no longer interested in this thread. Forgive me for assuming you'd still post in a thread you're no longer interested in.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ <-- Arrow was an indication that I was responding directly to your statement that you were no longer interested in this thread. Forgive me for assuming you'd still post in a thread you're no longer interested in.

Who said I'm no longer interested in the thread ? I was reffering to no longer being interested in the 'average' or 'look how he didn't even flinch after being punched by Wonderman, that clearly puts him at > Superman durability' discussion I had with Goober.

Though yeah, I don't care much for the thread anymore either, since I doubt opinions will change in the first place.

^ Bye.

^ Makes sense.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=allnewofficialhandbookoic4.jpg

Here's Grandmaster's Bio.
Read the last giant paragraph.

Pretty much a moot point; but these are great finds Juntai. I had never seen them before.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No it's a way of saying "Supes/Surfer/Thor/Flash shouldn't be judged solely on their preformances against Darkseid/Unilord/Celestials/Black Flash because they have plenty of showings that are far less impressive". It's a subjective topic, but then again so are most things being discussed on the vs Forum.

But if people would rather go solely by high end feats I guess we could just say that no one less powerful than Darkseid/Unilord can beat Supes/Surfer, no one less durable than a Celestial can survive a shot from Thor's hammer, and no one slower than Death can catch the Flash, regardless of how often other characters accomplish those very feats.

But I won't press the point, if you're done that's cool...

Superman has gone up against Darkseid long enough to prove that he is on his level when fighting one on one, so to be honest I see your example as a bad one. I addmitedly haven't read the Unilord saga, so I can't speak about that, although issue numbers so I can read it tomorrow would be appreciated. And it's not like Thor was fighting the Celestials on equal footing or anything like that, he was clearly the underdog, and the damage he did as far as I recall was with the belt of strength, and practically focusing all he got on that blow, so saying that nothing less than a Celestial can survive Thor's hammer based on that is inaccurate. Death was actually catching up with Flash, and the only reason he survived was because he reached the end of the Universe and, afterall, I see nothing wrong with this being used in debates, since Flash has quite a few examples of high-speed feats.

It is my opinion that it's in this matches that we actually see the true capabilities of the characters, events in which their capabilities are truly tested, and not in the 'average' showings, in which they tend not to go all out. So as long as the showing doesn't contradict the character's established powerset/history (like in the case of the famous Firelord vs Spiderman or Silver Surfer vs Black Panther), then I see them as admissable in a 'full capacity' fight.

This discussion mostly belongs to the rules thread, though.

^ SS Vol 3 120-121

Originally posted by kgkg
^ SS Vol 3 120-121

george perez ftw. i miss regular surfer...

Yes, he can. He has higher durability showings, more pain tolerance, greater reserves, etc.

Hell, IMO, Superman would have had a good shot at beating that team. He wouldn't have fallen the way Nefaria did.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Yes, he can. He has higher durability showings, more pain tolerance, greater reserves, etc.

Hell, IMO, Superman would have had a good shot at beating that team. He wouldn't have fallen the way Nefaria did. So you're of the opinion that Supes can withstand repeated shots from Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, the Vision, classic Wonderman, and Thor over the course of a day better than Neferia did? Not via moving out of the way or anything like that(Supes is hands down faster than Neferia), actually take and withstand everything they dished out?

Thor is the only real threat. And he's got the showings to merit it. and it's not a fair fight at all. Superman can just clap rapidly and kill half of them off.

They beat Nefaria, but Superman is on a different level and he's quite simply more than this team can handle. Most of that team is a joke to him.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thor is the only real threat. And he's got the showings to merit it. and it's not a fair fight at all. Superman can just clap rapidly and kill half of them off.

They beat Nefaria, but Superman is on a different level and he's quite simply more than this team can handle. Most of that team is a joke to him.
Could Supes have withstood the beating from Thor and the rest or not? Neferia's feat IS withstanding that beating, if Supes can't do it then Neferia's superior in that respect. I'm not arguing that Neferia or the Avengers beats Supes, I'm arguing that Neferia's more durable.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thor is the only real threat. And he's got the showings to merit it. and it's not a fair fight at all. Superman can just clap rapidly and kill half of them off.

They beat Nefaria, but Superman is on a different level and he's quite simply more than this team can handle. Most of that team is a joke to him. Superman isn't on a different level and that is the point. Thor would imo beat him for the majority out of ten fights and with all the help here he definitely would go down in that situation. Even in dc he isn't above Orion, Black Adam, etc. He is on their level so at the end of the day he is just a top tier.

Superman is on a different level compared to Nefaria. Thor is the only person who could actually stop him. Everyone else is fodder. Sonic boom. Dead. Thunderclap. Dead. Heat Vision. Dead. Freeze Breath. Dead.

"Even in dc he isn't above Orion, Black Adam, etc. He is on their level so at the end of the day he is just a top tier." ...........Clearly you do not read enough Superman.

Most of the 'help' is useless. Superman can rip through them with ease. Thor alone might stop him. But then again, if Superman fights smart and uses his speed, he can definitely win.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Superman is on a different level compared to Nefaria. Thor is the only person who could actually stop him. Everyone else is fodder. Sonic boom. Dead. Thunderclap. Dead. Heat Vision. Dead. Freeze Breath. Dead.
So you've given up even trying...

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Superman is on a different level compared to Nefaria. Thor is the only person who could actually stop him. Everyone else is fodder. Sonic boom. Dead. Thunderclap. Dead. Heat Vision. Dead. Freeze Breath. Dead.

"Even in dc he isn't above Orion, Black Adam, etc. He is on their level so at the end of the day he is just a top tier." ...........Clearly you do not read enough Superman.

Most of the 'help' is useless. Superman can rip through them with ease. Thor alone might stop him. But then again, if Superman fights smart and uses his speed, he can definitely win.

Superman is not dismissing Wonder Man when at KMC levels with anything close to what you're describing.

Do I really have to list the things he's tanked that are worse than that beating? You guys aren't listening. Thor is the only one who would actually hurt Superman. The rest are nothing.

Entropy, Omega Beams, Astro Force, the fight with Zod under a red sun, carrying Bleed in his system during Beyond, actually dying to DD Rex, Henshaw, double black holes, need I go on? Nobody has feats like Superman.

Let's not even get into the fact that PC is becoming canon again.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Superman is on a different level compared to Nefaria. Thor is the only person who could actually stop him. Everyone else is fodder. Sonic boom. Dead. Thunderclap. Dead. Heat Vision. Dead. Freeze Breath. Dead.

"Even in dc he isn't above Orion, Black Adam, etc. He is on their level so at the end of the day he is just a top tier." ...........Clearly you do not read enough Superman.

Most of the 'help' is useless. Superman can rip through them with ease. Thor alone might stop him. But then again, if Superman fights smart and uses his speed, he can definitely win. No, the rest aren't canon fodder. I could give examples of Superman getting thrashed by weaker teams, etc., but it still wouldn't change your mind.


How is Superman above Orion and Black Adam. Please provide examples or some semblance of logic and reasoning.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Do I really have to list the things he's tanked that are worse than that beating? You guys aren't listening. Thor is the only one who would actually hurt Superman. The rest are nothing.

Entropy, Omega Beams, Astro Force, the fight with Zod under a red sun, carrying Bleed in his system during Beyond, actually dying to DD Rex, Henshaw, double black holes, need I go on? Nobody has feats like Superman.

Let's not even get into the fact that PC is becoming canon again. Superman has crazy feats yes, but that still doesn't change the fact WW has hurt him, Doomsday has hurt him, Henshaw has beaten him into pulp, Zod has hurt him, Kalibak has hurt him, Konvikt has hurt him, shadow demons have almost killed him, Prime easily blew through his hand, etc.

Superman won't die, but don't mistake that for Superman being unbeatable here in a message board.

Originally posted by quanchi112
How is Superman above Orion and Black Adam. Please provide examples or some semblance of logic and reasoning. Better feats

Originally posted by kgkg
Better feats But in one on one fights they are equal. That is my point. Superman has them beat in appearances and then some,but when these guys actually throw down superman isn't above them.

Superman also has far more lower showings as well.

Supes is fighting at his best here.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Supes is fighting at his best here. I understand this, but even at his best he isn't above Black Adam or Orion imo. Comics support this as well.

Superman vs. Black Adam or Orion would make for one helluva battlezone here as their fights in comics have ended in stalemates.

Go back to reading Thanos comics, Quan.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Entropy, Omega Beams, Astro Force, the fight with Zod under a red sun, carrying Bleed in his system during Beyond, actually dying to DD Rex, Henshaw, double black holes, need I go on? Nobody has feats like Superman.
Sundip, and also never said, or even really alluded to actually...
That's probably a good feat when it happened...
Didn't he get dropped in one shot taking the Astro Force?
How is that impressive? It's not like he took a supremely destructive force while under the Red Sun.
Which he put in while he was extremely powered up. Also seemed to do with his iconic nature. As well as seemingly irrelevant to battles. More of a cool feat than anything.
How is dying to DD Rex a good feat? His heart got pumped again, and iirc, he was amped after.
He's been tooled by Henshaw... tons of times.
Double black hole. Nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Let's not even get into the fact that PC is becoming canon again. And when he starts putting planets through pikes, and blowing away solar systems, his PC feats will become relevant to his current self.