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It seems that there are posters who don't understand the rules or try to twist the rules in order to make things easier for the character they're debating for or against. Raoul and I have made every attempt to clarify things but there's a core of posters who still disregard rules and our posts. So let's just clear things up so the bias and trolling can be averted. I'll be using Superman and Silver Surfer as examples.



If nothing is stated for location, then the battlefield is an arena setting in a neutral universe.




Superman and Silver Surfer usually think of the safety of civilians and buildings first. Rarely do we see them go full on at the get go, due to their concerns. It's even been stated in comics. The VS Forum is an entirely different set up. No people, no buildings and the characters get general knowledge of their opponents. Superman and Silver Surfer wouldn't start a match with their strongest attack against Cyclops or Batman because they would kill them instantly. But it's plausible that they would go all out against each other since they have common knowledge and know it probably wouldn't result in an "insta-kill".

What I've explained isn't CIS......



.....It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold.

To be clear, characters like Superman, Silver Surfer, Wonder Woman, Sentry, Captain Marvel (DC), Thor, etc. can and will use all their attributes when the situation allows or is needed. This is still within their personalities since we've seen instances several times. This doesn't mean it's strictly power sets. The feats have to be supported by comic showings.

Isn't GG banned though now?

I mean, these are pretty easy rules to understand.

Penis.

Good grief, what a joke.

Why did you use the Sentry as an example? And not Thor?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Why did you use the Sentry as an example? And not Thor? he did say etc., which prob includes thor

Originally posted by Mekrob
Isn't GG banned though now?

I mean, these are pretty easy rules to understand. From what I see in the reports there are still people who don't understand.
Originally posted by Thorion
Good grief, what a joke. Joke's on you then. Last chance to stop your trolling and to abide by the rules.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Why did you use the Sentry as an example? And not Thor? Because.....
Originally posted by Starscream M
he did say etc., which prob includes thor

There, Thor's been added. All better Kris?

well with characters like thor, all though he has other options and powers it a key part of his personality to prefer brawling with mjolnir. While i would consider it cis that he will go most of the fight like that while using the other attacks occasionally others might say its pis that he would do still do that when he has other means to end the fight quicker.

Originally posted by Badabing


There, Thor's been added. All better Kris? why's thor in bold...that's unfair

Originally posted by Badabing
From what I see in the reports there are still people who don't understand.
Joke's on you then. Last chance to stop your trolling and to abide by the rules.
Because.....

There, Thor's been added. All better Kris?

Smart move biscuits

Originally posted by jalek moye
well with characters like thor, all though he has other options and powers it a key part of his personality to prefer brawling with mjolnir. While i would consider it cis that he will go most of the fight like that while using the other attacks occasionally others might say its pis that he would do still do that when he has other means to end the fight quicker. Just trying to open up the discussion to cut down on people using the rules to manipulate a character one way or the other.
Originally posted by Starscream M
why's thor in bold...that's unfair Kris is Norwegian....I have to sate the Norwegian lobby.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Smart move biscuits dursmart

I think Sue using a force bubble in a person's head to be out of character unless the situation was dire. Any thoughts?

yea i doubt she would even then. that is like her absoulute fate of her kids type attack

Originally posted by Badabing
I think Sue using a force bubble in a person's head to be out of character unless the situation was dire. Any thoughts? it would be out of character

but I thought the rules pretty much assumes everyone unleashes their full powersets?

The only people who won't like this, are the people who are trolls.

Originally posted by Starscream M
it would be out of character

but I thought the rules pretty much assumes everyone unleashes their full powersets?
they unleash all they they could do but normally dont, but won't surpass their mental restraints of certian tatics

Originally posted by Starscream M
it would be out of character

but I thought the rules pretty much assumes everyone unleashes their full powersets?

It's not an example of her "unleashing her full powerset" it's simply a more violent application.

Originally posted by Starscream M
it would be out of character

but I thought the rules pretty much assumes everyone unleashes their full powersets? It does but they must stay within character unless something is noted in the thread, like her kids will die and a force bubble to the head was the only way to save them. Someone like Black Adam has no problem ripping people apart, literally.

Originally posted by fangirl101
The only people who won't like this, are the people who are trolls. That's the idea.

at the first post.

Question, what about thread specific environments? If the OP says that the fight takes place in NYC are buildings and civilians to be taken into account?

Originally posted by Badabing
I think Sue using a force bubble in a person's head to be out of character unless the situation was dire. Any thoughts?

What about Storm making lungs explode or creating a lightning storm in your brain, or filling your lungs with poisonous gases, or absorbing a star?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Question, what about thread specific environments? If the OP says that the fight takes place in NYC are buildings and civilians to be taken into account? Yes. In that case the self limitations set on a character would be in play.Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
What about Storm making lungs explode or creating a lightning storm in your brain, or filling your lungs with poisonous gases, or absorbing a star? sdurorm

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
What about Storm making lungs explode or creating a lightning storm in your brain, or filling your lungs with poisonous gases, or absorbing a star?

it only applies to things characters are actually capable of doing.

You should also differ between limitations set by a characters morals.

In the new x-men issue where Julian Keller fights Kimura we get to see both. He won't create a huge bubble inside her brain because he's not a killer. Later on Emma needs to open up some mental blocks to let him move past the speed of sound.

The former is an inhibition he put on himself and is connected to his morals.
The latter is an inhibition his body put on him and is connected to his power potential.

If he were to participate in a fight where CIS was off he would still not be able to break the sound barrier, but he might create bubbles inside people's heads.

If he were to participate in a fight where he was boosted by Sage he would be able to break the sound barrier, but would not create bubbles inside people's heads.

Originally posted by Badabing
I think Sue using a force bubble in a person's head to be out of character unless the situation was dire. Any thoughts?

I'd say that's an extreme. She normally wouldn't do it. So would the ruling be that she would not do that even were it the only way she could beat a particular opponent? Or she would if that's the only way to win?

Originally posted by SupremeMan
I'd say that's an extreme. She normally wouldn't do it. So would the ruling be that she would not do that even were it the only way she could beat a particular opponent? Or she would if that's the only way to win? I'd say she would only use a force bubble if there was no other way another person's life depended on it. Say a Skrull was holding a gun to her kid's head or something. In a vs battle, I would say she wouldn't.

What about the recent speed arguments. Namely, certain characters don't tend to use their speed unless they know its an opponent that can only be beaten if they speedblitz. My take is that general knowledge would cover a fairly decent idea of how much a character can take as far as damage. The "so and so doesn't speedblitz most of the time" just becomes as excuse to have one character not fighting at full capacity in my opinion.

wat about my thor statement about the cis vs pis thing

Originally posted by SupremeMan
What about the recent speed arguments. Namely, certain characters don't tend to use their speed unless they know its an opponent that can only be beaten if they speedblitz. My take is that general knowledge would cover a fairly decent idea of how much a character can take as far as damage. The "so and so doesn't speedblitz most of the time" just becomes as excuse to have one character not fighting at full capacity in my opinion. I agree. Most characters who exhibit high speed use it when needed. There's no reason to think that Supes or SS wouldn't use it in the forum matches.
Originally posted by jalek moye
wat about my thor statement about the cis vs pis thing I've seen Thor use his more exotic powers enough to wanna count him in with Supes and SS. He did tell Stark that he was holding back before his rebirth. But there may be people who disagree.

Originally posted by Badabing
He did tell Stark that he was holding back before his rebirth. But there may be people who disagree. i totally agree, i've been telling people for years.

i know he holds back, but it seems like he likes to do the whole hammer smash your skull tatic more. Kind of like how Bor prefered the melee method to try to kill thor

Originally posted by Badabing
I agree. Most characters who exhibit high speed use it when needed. There's no reason to think that Supes or SS wouldn't use it in the forum matches.


Them using during the match speed wouldnt be a problem but what of the degree and time period in which they use it. Neither SS or supes are going to be blitzing their opponent at lightspeed as soon as they here go. Heck the probly wont hit their opponenet with one thousand attacks in a picosecond at any time during the fight. They will blitz during the match but certainly not to the insane levels some suggest.

Originally posted by Raoul
it only applies to things characters are actually capable of doing.

2damnloud said she could. What makes you guys's opinion more credible than his?

Seriously though while we are talking about speed and blitzing what is the consensus on Superman going LS in earth's atmosphere? I know some people have said that he can't either because of the atmosphere itself or that he would do damage or something to the earth but I always thought that he didn't have to go LS in earth's atmosphere because he could already be anywhere on the earth in a matter of seconds.

Originally posted by jalek moye
i know he holds back, but it seems like he likes to do the whole hammer smash your skull tatic more. Kind of like how Bor prefered the melee method to try to kill thor I think with most "good guys", it's a progression of intensity and use of more exotic powers. My thoughts are like this. Say it's Supes vs Sentry. They get basic knowledge. I think both would be more apt to really have a go at each other in a forum battle. Thor does like to wail with Moljnir, but he isn't a dunderhead and may be wily enough to use more exotic attacks.Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
2damnloud said she could. What makes you guys's opinion more credible than his?

Seriously though while we are talking about speed and blitzing what is the consensus on Superman going LS in earth's atmosphere? I know some people have said that he can't either because of the atmosphere itself or that he would do damage or something to the earth but I always thought that he didn't have to go LS in earth's atmosphere because he could already be anywhere on the earth in a matter of seconds. FTL in the atmosphere on an inhabited planet is a no go. I've never seen it done. But in the default arena setting, maybe. I see no reason why Supes or Glads wouldn't have the power since they don't use brute force to go ftl. But even at 1/10 c or mach 10, covering 0.50 kms can be divided into fractions of a second.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
2damnloud said she could. What makes you guys's opinion more credible than his?

Seriously though while we are talking about speed and blitzing what is the consensus on Superman going LS in earth's atmosphere? I know some people have said that he can't either because of the atmosphere itself or that he would do damage or something to the earth but I always thought that he didn't have to go LS in earth's atmosphere because he could already be anywhere on the earth in a matter of seconds.

wow. shame on you.

Basic knowledge of the character pretty much rules out the whole 'he won't go all out at the start of the match'. If it's against characters like Silver Surfer, Thanos or such, Superman would have no reason to hesitate bringing his speed and strength and blitzing the crap out of them. If it's against characters like Iron Man, he will use whatever speed he would deem necessary to put them down but without killing them, since it's not in Superman's character. You won't see him use his full speed and strength against characters that basic knowledge says that they could not take it, but you'll see him using it against the bigger threats.

Way to ignore what I said.

Me ?

That was not adressed to your post, but in general.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i totally agree, i've been telling people for years.

He has been holding back for years, he declared so against the Squadron Sinister.

I'm tempted to say we need some criteria to distinquish between things like Batman aim dodging or Spidey with his spider sense and fast reflexes and Cassie Caine with her Mach speed reflexes and the whole Superman/ Wonder Woman/ Flash set who have ftl reflexes to varying degrees. But then again, I suppose that really comes down to proven comic feats as long as they are looked at carefully and not misrepresented.

Originally posted by Bentley
He has been holding back for years, he declared so against the Squadron Sinister. it goes without saying (or personal statements from thor himself).

thor vs arishem/exitar, that's a good example of classic thor going all out.

facepalm

Originally posted by illadelph12
facepalm

????

For the record, the planetary destruction thing is the main reason most characters don't go FTL inside an atmosphere. Except Flash, because he gets to cheat physics.

May I assume that the rules mean characters do not hold back their full powers for story considerations? Example: Darkseid obliterating people with the OE or the rest of his rediculously large powerset?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
????

For the record, the planetary destruction thing is the main reason most characters don't go FTL inside an atmosphere. Except Flash, because he gets to cheat physics.

May I assume that the rules mean characters do not hold back their full powers for story considerations? Example: Darkseid obliterating people with the OE or the rest of his rediculously large powerset?
I don't see why not. I mean Thanos seems to get every consideration on KMC. DS certainly has shown extreme powers and feats.

I'm all for the new policy, but doesn't mean that the number of threads decided via BFR are going to skyrocket(except threads with stipulations against of course)?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm all for the new policy, but doesn't mean that the number of threads decided via BFR are going to skyrocket(except threads with stipulations against of course)? BFR......People will always throw that in to the threads. It hasn't reared up yet.

It's not like BFR wasn't an option before these rules came in.........

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm all for the new policy, but doesn't mean that the number of threads decided via BFR are going to skyrocket(except threads with stipulations against of course)?

....This isn't an addition of new rules.

Originally posted by Badabing
BFR......People will always throw that in to the threads. It hasn't reared up yet.
It happens a lot in threads featuring major bricks. Throwing into space seems to be the current favorite.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
It's not like BFR wasn't an option before these rules came in.........

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
....This isn't an addition of new rules.
But before we tried to base it on the likelihood of the character doing it, in the new system they use the best way to win pretty much every time if I'm not mistaken.

I don't really care because I rarely post here anymore, but if I were to offer my two cents...

This is a horrible set of rules.

All that it does is encourage people to argue power sets instead of characters. It takes the emphasis off of how a character is likely to fight, and puts the emphasis on the most ZOMG feats that are ages old and/or never repeated.

I realize that the inclusion of CIS should help define how characters fight, but it's far too vague.

The majority of problems that people have with trolls stems from the fact that they argue powersets over characters.

It's a step in the wrong direction.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You should also differ between limitations set by a characters morals.

In the new x-men issue where Julian Keller fights Kimura we get to see both. He won't create a huge bubble inside her brain because he's not a killer. Later on Emma needs to open up some mental blocks to let him move past the speed of sound.

The former is an inhibition he put on himself and is connected to his morals.
The latter is an inhibition his body put on him and is connected to his power potential.

If he were to participate in a fight where CIS was off he would still not be able to break the sound barrier, but he might create bubbles inside people's heads.

If he were to participate in a fight where he was boosted by Sage he would be able to break the sound barrier, but would not create bubbles inside people's heads. Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Way to ignore what I said. I commented on Sue using a force bubble. That's a moral choice.

If there's some sort of mental or psychic block then that will have to be dealt with by stipulations in the thread or default to forum rules.

facepalm

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't really care because I rarely post here anymore, but if I were to offer my two cents...

This is a horrible set of rules.

All that it does is encourage people to argue power sets instead of characters. It takes the emphasis off of how a character is likely to fight, and puts the emphasis on the most ZOMG feats that are ages old and/or never repeated.

I realize that the inclusion of CIS should help define how characters fight, but it's far too vague.

The majority of problems that people have with trolls stems from the fact that they argue powersets over characters.

It's a step in the wrong direction. smurph is a smart dood.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't really care because I rarely post here anymore, but if I were to offer my two cents...

This is a horrible set of rules.

All that it does is encourage people to argue power sets instead of characters. It takes the emphasis off of how a character is likely to fight, and puts the emphasis on the most ZOMG feats that are ages old and/or never repeated.

I realize that the inclusion of CIS should help define how characters fight, but it's far too vague.

The majority of problems that people have with trolls stems from the fact that they argue powersets over characters.

It's a step in the wrong direction.

What you say here sounds very good and right. The problem I have is what it will almost certainly really turn into. The more you loosen the rules, the more it will just result in peoples' bias coming to the surface.

We already have situations where people want to count feats by one character that were performed in one storyline ever and discount feats by another character that have been repeated many times even if still a small part of that character's overall showings.

I honestly feel that the majority of troll problems results from people wanting to have their favorite at his best and the opponent at lower than best and then, when they aren't allowed to stack the deck like that, its unfair and the rules are ridiculous.

We could go with average showings rather than best showings. But who decides what is average? Its a little harder to measure than best. We could argue character instead of power sets. Same result as I stated above. The reality is all we'd have done is say, "There are no criteria."
You'd just have people arguing that what their fave would "really do" would be to his best advantage and that the other guy wouldn't do such and such no matter how many times he's done it.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't really care because I rarely post here anymore, but if I were to offer my two cents...

This is a horrible set of rules.

All that it does is encourage people to argue power sets instead of characters. It takes the emphasis off of how a character is likely to fight, and puts the emphasis on the most ZOMG feats that are ages old and/or never repeated.

I realize that the inclusion of CIS should help define how characters fight, but it's far too vague.

The majority of problems that people have with trolls stems from the fact that they argue powersets over characters.

It's a step in the wrong direction. 100% agree

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't really care because I rarely post here anymore, but if I were to offer my two cents...

This is a horrible set of rules.

All that it does is encourage people to argue power sets instead of characters. It takes the emphasis off of how a character is likely to fight, and puts the emphasis on the most ZOMG feats that are ages old and/or never repeated.

I realize that the inclusion of CIS should help define how characters fight, but it's far too vague.

The majority of problems that people have with trolls stems from the fact that they argue powersets over characters.

It's a step in the wrong direction.

the last thing this set of rules is designed to do is to turn this in to a forum where powersets come first and character comes second.

firstly, the main thing is that we're trying to invalidate all the unbeliavably low showings. armbars, gas stations, all that stuff. we're trying to get the point across that stuff like that isn't welcome.

secondly, CIS is defined as being how a character is likely to fight and the lengths they are willing to go to secure a win.

personality will always come first.

what we're doing is focusing on the high fights and mindsets that characters have consistently shown, like cyclops' mega blast and his repression, superman's speed and his fairness, thor's versatility and his tendency to want to fight, doctor light's cruelty, doctor doom's arrogance etc etc, all the things that affect how people fight and WHO they fight.

example:

Thor Vs Hulk. A lot of people seem to assume that Thor would just brawl with someone like the Hulk and would refuse to use his other, more varied abilities. The point we're making is that even though Thor would brawl with Hulk, he still has the sense of mind to use his other powers because a) he can, b) he's fought hulk before, and most importantly c) he's in this to win it. all forum battles come with the presumption that something huge is at stake. these aren't random brawls. you don't live to fight another day if you lose.

this isn't about making everyone uber, its about making sure that people stop underselling characters, which happens just as much if not moreso than people bumping their favourite characters.

besides, if you're in the thread, its presumed that you have at least some knowledge of the character you're debating about.

Originally posted by Raoul


Thor Vs Hulk. A lot of people seem to assume that Thor would just brawl with someone like the Hulk and would refuse to use his other, more varied abilities. The point we're making is that even though Thor would brawl with Hulk, he still has the sense of mind to use his other powers because a) he can, b) he's fought hulk before, and most importantly c) he's in this to win it. all forum battles come with the presumption that something huge is at stake. these aren't random brawls. you don't live to fight another day if you lose.

the thing is thor would never use a godblast or time stopping or antimatter against Hulk.

he's never done so in their countless battles. yet on kmc, many people say godblast ftw or something like that.

so is godblast allowed even though thor has never used it against hulk?

Originally posted by Starscream M
the thing is thor would never use a godblast or time stopping or antimatter against Hulk.

he's never done so in their countless battles. yet on kmc, many people say godblast ftw or something like that.

so is godblast allowed even though thor has never used it against hulk?

if he's forced in to using it as his only option, a last resort if you will, then yes he would, otherwise no.

Originally posted by Raoul
if he's forced in to using it as his only option, a last resort if you will, then yes he would, otherwise no.

This is basically my issue right here. I agree Thor wouldn't start out using the God Blast but he would if he realized it was the only way.

Since these fights are not just random brawls but are presumed to be for all the marbles, everything is at stake, every character would use everything they could to win. They might not kill unless there was no other way. Some of them might not kill, period. But within character, knowing the stakes, they'd use everything they've got. Whether its Superman or Wonder Woman or the Flash, they would use use every ounce of speed they've got. Now, the super strong characters might not punch as hard as they could at first. I'll definitely say that.

But it seems to me that some of our biggest arguments in threads isn't necessarily a matter of wanting people to fight out of character. Its more when people want to discount one character's high end feats and its usually pretty clear they prefer to believe that character would lose.

"this isn't about making everyone uber, its about making sure that people stop underselling characters, which happens just as much if not moreso than people bumping their favourite characters."

That's pretty much my point. Thank you.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't really care because I rarely post here anymore, but if I were to offer my two cents...

This is a horrible set of rules.

All that it does is encourage people to argue power sets instead of characters. It takes the emphasis off of how a character is likely to fight, and puts the emphasis on the most ZOMG feats that are ages old and/or never repeated.

I realize that the inclusion of CIS should help define how characters fight, but it's far too vague.

The majority of problems that people have with trolls stems from the fact that they argue powersets over characters.

It's a step in the wrong direction.
Originally posted by SupremeMan
This is basically my issue right here. I agree Thor wouldn't start out using the God Blast but he would if he realized it was the only way.True, he used godblast right away when he fought Durok the second time. But that's because he knew exactly what it'd take to defeat him.

Originally posted by Draco69
Superman would have a general idea that Juggernaut is really strong, really invulnerable and apt causing public destruction.

He wouldn't know the full extent of his powers, i.e. his mystical connection to a higher power or the true extent of his durability.So through analogy (and forgive me for begging the question),how does Wonderwoman know the full extent of Invisible Woman's powers, i.e. that the forcefields are nearly indestructible or that she can form multiple forcefields simultaneously or that shattering them causes psychic feedback?
Originally posted by Draco69
Enemies try to pick up Thor's hammer even with the knowledge that it can only be picked up by someone 'worthy' because they either don't believe it or they're misinformed about the hammer's abilities.

If you saw Thor's hammer lying around, wouldn't you try to lift it?

It's similar to Diana's lasso. Many people may know about it but they don't necessarily believe in it. "Truth" and "worthy" are so subjective.
Despite how many times Thor explains that only the worthy may lift it... and several times to actual public bystanders, I can show you a dozen times where villains try to lift it without having any clue there was an enchantment upon it at all. Now this particular example is a moot point considering how many people tried lifting it when it landed in Oklahoma and how well-televised that was. My overall point though, is that despite certain things happening in public, that does not give a randomly encountered foe in either their own world or another universe altogether a good grasp of the foe's abilities.
Originally posted by Draco69
And I think foes underestimate Sue time and again due to sexism and the less 'pizzaz' of her usual role in the Fantastic Four. She's doesn't stand out like the Human Torch or the Thing who are continually the front line attackers. Sue is almost always first and foremost defense. Doesn't answer why people always end up getting their butt kicked by Sue in the end, even perenial villains. What does help to explain it, is that they don't have nearly as fulla grasp of her abilities as they'd like to. And IMHO, Wonderwoman definitely would be lower on the list of people who have a good enough grasp of Invisible Woman's abilities and would know that she absolutely, positively must be taken out first and foremost in any random encounter.

Originally posted by Badabing
Didn't I state there was a separate thread for this discussion? By your implication that makes any hero who killed in the same ilk as Black Adam, Joker, etc. Lord was using his position and powers to manipulate Superman to carry assaults on Bats and WW. That isn't even close to being a stone cold killer. Yes, WW's rep did suffer but she's still in the JLA and portrayed a hero. And by your definition cops, Cap, Superman, are all killers since they've have killed. WW wouldn't kill anyone of the FF unless there were circumstances. Sue wouldn't kill with a force bubble, let alone another hero. So nether side kills heroes. Any more comments about perceived personalities, characterizations, etc can be made in the thread that's open for this discussion. That might be your opinion, but the way the rule is constructed strains this interpretation because the common knowledge rule depends in large part, on the general population's knowledge of the character. We all know and nearly all DC heroes know that Batman doesn't kill. Even some DC villains know that. But the general population of DC Earth is scared sh1tless of him and considers him to be a psycho. How many times are people willing to believe that Batman is guilty of murder when he's accused? How many times does Batman scare someone into thinking he would actually kill them if they don't give up information when he plays bad cop?

What that tells me, is that a first-time randomly encountered foe in the DC Universe would not be confident that Batman wouldn't kill. If they knew Batman wouldn't kill, you could argue that they'd be looser and take more chances in a fight. Or vice-versa, if they thought Batman could kill, you could argue that they'd be more serious from the outset and apply their powers/abilities/skills to the max.

Does that make sense in terms of first-time randomy encountered DC foes? If so, why should a first-time randomly encountered foe like Captain America be conifdent that Batman wouldn't kill? Why wouldn't Cap have the same doubts as to how psychotic Batman could be or whether he had crossed the line? If your interpretation of the rule undoes what would normally occur for a DC character, I believe that is faulty. And the way the current construction of the common knowledge rule does not go down that road. It's perfect as it is for simulating a first-time random encounter as they normally happen in comics. There's the chance for misunderstanding, for under/overestimation, for aces up the sleeve... much in the same way normal comic book fights occur. I find that more interesting.

And this isn't a restrictive interpretation either. Because a thread-starter could simply open with a stipulation like bloodlust or that Character A and Character B know each other historically.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That might be your opinion, but the way the rule is constructed strains this interpretation because the common knowledge rule depends in large part, on the general population's knowledge of the character. We all know and nearly all DC heroes know that Batman doesn't kill. Even some DC villains know that. But the general population of DC Earth is scared sh1tless of him and considers him to be a psycho. How many times are people willing to believe that Batman is guilty of murder when he's accused? How many times does Batman scare someone into thinking he would actually kill them if they don't give up information when he plays bad cop?

What that tells me, is that a first-time randomly encountered foe in the DC Universe would not be confident that Batman wouldn't kill. If they knew Batman wouldn't kill, you could argue that they'd be looser and take more chances in a fight. Or vice-versa, if they thought Batman could kill, you could argue that they'd be more serious from the outset and apply their powers/abilities/skills to the max.

Does that make sense in terms of first-time randomy encountered DC foes? If so, why should a first-time randomly encountered foe like Captain America be conifdent that Batman wouldn't kill? Why wouldn't Cap have the same doubts as to how psychotic Batman could be or whether he had crossed the line? If your interpretation of the rule undoes what would normally occur for a DC character, I believe that is faulty. And the way the current construction of the common knowledge rule does not go down that road. It's perfect as it is for simulating a first-time random encounter as they normally happen in comics. There's the chance for misunderstanding, for under/overestimation, for aces up the sleeve... much in the same way normal comic book fights occur. I find that more interesting.

And this isn't a restrictive interpretation either. Because a thread-starter could simply open with a stipulation like bloodlust or that Character A and Character B know each other historically.

batman is an exception, he's not the rule. look at superman. nobody would ever believe he'd kill, and yet he has.

diana is loved by a large amont of the populace. sue might know that diana had killed lord, but she'd get conflicting information that diana is seen as a hero to many, especially women, for all the good she'd done. they'd know she's part of the justice league. also, pretty much every gossip magazine in dc believes superman is dating wonder woman. by extension, people know superman wouldn't be with someone evil. sue is a hero, and would want to find out for herself if diana is truly a killer.

wait, what am i doing in this thread...

Originally posted by Raoul
batman is an exception, he's not the rule. look at superman. nobody would ever believe he'd kill, and yet he has.

diana is loved by a large amont of the populace. sue might know that diana had killed lord, but she'd get conflicting information that diana is seen as a hero to many, especially women, for all the good she'd done. they'd know she's part of the justice league. also, pretty much every gossip magazine in dc believes superman is dating wonder woman. by extension, people know superman wouldn't be with someone evil. sue is a hero, and would want to find out for herself if diana is truly a killer.

wait, what am i doing in this thread...

Providing a breath of logic. And basic info is ambiguous for non-earth characters. How do we gauge what basic knowledge is for someone like Silver Surfer, or the Watcher? Or Darkseid or Green Lantern? Or Shadow King or Henshaw, etc?

If we're using earth population knowledge, then there are huge numbers of unknowns. And even if we use alien civilizations, there is gaps in the knowledge.

if it is people like that, then, i'd assume we'd have a basic format. name, powerset, tier, and whether they're a hero or villain.

edit: when i say powerset, i mean in the vaguest terms possible.

like, if superman was fighting norrin, superman would know: norrin has the power cosmic which gives him a vast array of abilities. he wouldn't know what they are, but he'd know that norrin is somewhat powerful. he'd know norrin can fly.

when its people who don't spend a lot of their time in front of the public, i think its best to assume that their opponent knows what would be known if that person was in fact a public figure...

^ When Thor first met Surfer, neither of the characters knew what the hell was going on with each other. Hell, current Nova still doesn't understand current Surfer's scope of power until he gets speedblitzed by him, lectured by Worldmind and witnesses his feats. So now Superman is more informed and gets more knowledge than both situations? If the rules are meant to be this way, than draft the common knowledge rule clearly: "Even though intercompany characters have never met each other, consider them to be better informed than a first-time encounter would allow. In fact, consider them to be better informed than a character whose recent career involves being surrounded by the other character's supporting cast."

This may seem like a facetious characterization, but it's not. That's EXACTLY the result where this type of reasoning is headed. Superman would use all-out speedblitz on Silver Surfer at opening of battle because he knows how powerful he is. Did current Nova use the full Nova-force against Surfer at openign of battle? Or did he open with a half-decent shot to see how it would work and then get spanked? And even after getting spanked and lectured by Worldmind, Rider still was left gawking at Surfer's later feats. Current Nova had access to the Worldmind. He had just spent an entire event immersing himself in Silver Surfer's gallery. He didn't open with the full Nova-force in his encounter with Surfer. And now, Superman, whose never encountered Surfer... hasn't immersed himself in Surfer's gallery knows that he has to go all-out speedblitz at the start? Inane result. This applies exactly in the reverse too.

And what's most revealing to me is that this is ONLY argued for in intercompany battles. Were someone to make a current Silver Surfer vs Sentry thread or a current Starman vs Sinestro thread or an Iron Fist vs Daken thread or Cassie vs Azrael thread, I doubt any of this nonsense would be debated like this. The characters don't know each other and never met. But it's cool to think of what would happen if they did. And that's why we talk about it and why a majority of these threads are made in the first place. But apparently such discussion has to be boiled down to: (i) assume they fight their very best, IN SPITE of what their personality, history and career would suggest; and (ii) assume that characters know each other better in intercompany battles. Inane result.

Ok, maybe i wasn't as clear as i should have beem

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ When Thor first met Surfer, neither of the characters knew what the hell was going on with each other. Hell, current Nova still doesn't understand current Surfer's scope of power until he gets speedblitzed by him, lectured by Worldmind and witnesses his feats. So now Superman is more informed and gets more knowledge than both situations? If the rules are meant to be this way, than draft the common knowledge rule clearly: "Even though intercompany characters have never met each other, consider them to be better informed than a first-time encounter would allow. In fact, consider them to be better informed than a character whose recent career involves being surrounded by the other character's supporting cast."

my explanation was that at the very most, characters had that much information. no more than that, but up to and including that, based on who it is. Thor would know more about hulk than superman would, but captain marvel would know more about black adam than beta ray bill would.



nothing i said should give that impression.



Dude, did you even read what we wrote? Seriously? The whole point of these rules is that a character can fight at their best, as long as it DOESN'T contradict their established character, unless stated in the OP. The whole point of these clarifications is to eliminate the lowest of showings and stop people trying to use the armbars and the gas stations of the world as evidence in debates.

I seriously don't know how you got the impression you did from what i wrote...

Not only that,but Cassie did meet Azrael.


Thus his entire post is void.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Not only that,but Cassie did meet Azrael.


Thus his entire post is void.

I kinda like the rules and see what you guys are trying to do but I really kinda don't like them as well. All this is going to turn into is... well it's life or death and thus said character is going to use an attack right from the start that they rarely ever use and their opponent is going to do the same. So, it's my best least used attack first basically all the time when really that contradicts their usual tactics. You say well they have to fight in character but then say it's a forum battle and it's basically life or death. So, then really in every fight all characters do their best attack regardless being that it's life or death and that to me is kinda pointless. As i said I like the idea of what your trying to do and understand that. I just think it opens the door to all the threads starting out with uber attacks right away that are rarely used and that doesn't make for much fun debating. I thought the fights were supposed to be about how a fight would go between characters basing it on what we've seen in comics. We don't see Thor God blasting right from the start.. just like we don't see SS opening a black hole right from the start yet those are the first attacks under these new rules that everybody would say. So, who wins... a God blast right away or a blackhole/plant busting blast from SS... Hard to argue that kinda situation

Originally posted by fangirl101
The only people who won't like this, are the people who are trolls.
Indeed.

Screw these rules!

So, again we really wants the vs. forum to turn into your best little used attack right away against somebody else best? That doesn't seem like it would make for the best no a logical debate.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, again we really wants the vs. forum to turn into your best little used attack right away against somebody else best? That doesn't seem like it would make for the best no a logical debate.
Stipulations can always be added to make the fight closer to how it would appear in a comic. Just placing the fight in an urban setting rules out things that would take out the surrounding city(at least in the case of heroes).

Originally posted by Raoul
Ok, maybe i wasn't as clear as i should have beem

my explanation was that at the very most, characters had that much information. no more than that, but up to and including that, based on who it is. Thor would know more about hulk than superman would, but captain marvel would know more about black adam than beta ray bill would.

nothing i said should give that impression.

Dude, did you even read what we wrote? Seriously? The whole point of these rules is that a character can fight at their best, as long as it DOESN'T contradict their established character, unless stated in the OP. The whole point of these clarifications is to eliminate the lowest of showings and stop people trying to use the armbars and the gas stations of the world as evidence in debates.

I seriously don't know how you got the impression you did from what i wrote... It's simple. From what you just said, current Nova would have far more information available to him about Silver Surfer than Superman would. That much I believe we can agree upon. Let's call this level of information... "info+." Not only has Nova seen and met Surfer before, he just immersed himself in Surfer's gallery of characters in Annihilation AND has the Xandarian Worldmind informing him about Surfer. So what does Nova do with this info+? Does he completely blast the entire Novaforce at Surfer right from the start and give it his best? No. Did anybody have a problem with this? No.

Turn it around. In my estimation, even with this artificial common knowledge rule, Superman would not even have anywhere close to this info+. Therefore, he has a much more inferior ability to gauge how much power he needs to fight with. As such, since Clark's personality directs him to always hold back unless absolutely necessary and since he holds a high regard for life, it is my view that Superman would give him a good punch at the start, maybe use some speed. But he wouldn't outright speedblitz him like he did to Amazo or Wonderwoman (in Sacrifice). Does this sound familiar? Indeed, Superman has never overestimated an opponent's power and accidentally punched someone too hard right at the start. He tests them out, sees how much it would take and that's much to his own detriment. But he does so because he's scared of crippling/killing someone. He can take the pain, therefore he'll take the chances. That's Superman. In much the same way, Thor, Surfer, Wonderwoman, Captain Marvel, they all do the same thing. It's the Mangogs, Doomsdays, Black Adams, Morgs who don't share this trait.

If that makes sense, then why is it that in so many recent threads across the board, are Mods encouraging posters to think in such a way that Superman, without even current Nova's level of info+, would go all out with a speed-blitz to start a fight against Surfer? He wouldn't do that against a relatively unknown foe in his own comics. So what are we inserting into the equation that is foreign and distorting our simulations of comic fights?

For me, the answer is obvious. We are inserting self-serving logic when it suits us. That in itself, can't be blamed. We're human. If it was consistent across the board, it'd be fine. But there's a glaring problem. The results are inconsistent, between intracompany and intercompany vs. battles. Example: Iron Fist vs. Daken. Daken is good enough to beat Wolverine and such an opponent cannot be taken lightly. His speed, skills and claws can kill you instantly by inflicting certain wounds. Would any of you really argue that Iron Fist, because of a common knowledge rule, would actually bust out some train-stopping punch the first chance he gets in order to make sure he doesn't get mortally wounded? I hope not. Because that would be stupid.

Iron Fist never met him. He's met plenty of people around him. He's probably heard rumors. But he is not well-informed enough about Daken's lethality that he'd completely preempt his lethality upon meeting him the first time. Iron Fist isn't even that vicious or coldly-calculating to begin with. Make sense? Ask yourself this: "Why does this concept make more sense to you personally, when it's intracompany battles as opposed to intercompany battles?" Because Wonderwoman speedblitzing the sh1t out of Invisible Woman in the first picosecond when fighting the entire Fantastic Four, makes as much sense as the Iron Fist vs Daken scenario.
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Not only that,but Cassie did meet Azrael.


Thus his entire post is void. uhuh

KuRuPT Thanosi said:



OneDumbGo said:



I kind of agree with both of you guys. To some degree, everybody does this. As you said, OneDumbGo, its human nature. One cannot possibly be 100% unbiased. I would not even necessarily say its only when its inter-company fights either though that may be the majority.

I started running scenarios in my mind and I saw the problem.

Wonder Woman versus the Invisible Woman Come on, we all know that's a hot one right now.

Wonder Woman: "Okay, I know she can turn invisible. She can create force fields and move things with some sort of force power."

.

Invisible Woman: "Okay I know she's super strong, super durable and really fast. She has a lasso and I'm told she has a tiara she can throw and some bracelets she blocks with."

.

Now here's what happens in character.

Wonder Woman: "I don't know how powerful those force fields are. How much can they take? How much can she take if I hit her before the fields are up? I can hit her with everything I've got before she can react but what if it kills her? She's not a monster, not even a human monster. I can't kill her. I can't hit her with more than what I'm sure a normal human could survive until I test out how tough she is. Even though I can rocket in and get in the first hit, it has to be something I'm sure a normal human could take. I'll go for the lasso or a strike that would stun a tough human."

Invisible Woman: I know she's super strong but how strong? My first action has to be to get the force field on. But what about attacking? How durable is she? Superhuman but by how much and in what ways? Force bubble in the brain. No way. I am not killing a human being or damaging her brain. I'm just going to hope I can get the field up fast enough and that it can take her shots long enough that I can encase her in multiple field layers and win by immobilizing her or suffocating her but only just enough that she's out or slam her around with my force power building up the impacts as I see how much she can take."

The problem as I see it is that most people don't try to think it out. Most people on both sides are more like:

"Okay I hate Wonder Woman. How can I justify her losing? Oh who needs justification? She loses because I say so. I'll come up with something."

"Okay I love Wonder Woman. She hits hard enough to take out IW without killing her. She knows exactly how hard to hit with no testing because I say so."

"Okay so basically you are ignoring WW's powers and invoking story considerations so she'll lose."

"Okay so basically you are throwing character out the window to make sure she wins."

I'm just saying I don't think we can have a perfect world here. Being more character based is all well and good but with so many people just basing their opinions on preference and knee-jerk reaction, I don't see that it makes much difference.

^ Except the inflation of knowledge bases and the stripping of personalities are only affecting how intercompany people fight. That's the problem. We don't artificially inflate Iron Fist's knowledge or turn him into cold, calculating killer when we throw him up against Daken. Why would we inflate Wonderwoman's knowledge and turn her into a cold, calculating killer when we throw her up against Invisible Woman?

Most people have no problems with personalities and limited knowledge bases when it's intracompany. Not many Marvel characters know Daredevil is actually blind and heavily relies on radar sense? Not many DC characters know that Deathstroke can lose his temper and forego his calculative abilities if you piss him off enough? But as soon as you start crossing companies, all that characterization and knowledge deficiency needs to be thrown out the door. That's self-serving.

There are a few people who always apply lack of knowledge and personalities in fights. There are a few people who never apply lack of knowledge or personalities in fights. That's fine. It's when the vast majority only applies lack of knowledge and personalities in intracompany fights, yet refuse to apply lack of knowledge and personalities in intercompany fights. That's not how it should work, but there is a new focus on trying to make it work this way without seeing that clear flaw.

It seems that there are posters who don't understand the rules or try to twist the rules in order to make things easier for the character they're debating for or against. Raoul and I have made every attempt to clarify things but there's a core of posters who still disregard rules and our posts. So let's just clear things up so the bias and trolling can be averted. I'll be using Superman and Silver Surfer as examples.



If nothing is stated for location, then the battlefield is an arena setting in a neutral universe.




Superman and Silver Surfer usually think of the safety of civilians and buildings first. Rarely do we see them go full on at the get go, due to their concerns. It's even been stated in comics. The VS Forum is an entirely different set up. No people, no buildings and the characters get general knowledge of their opponents. Superman and Silver Surfer wouldn't start a match with their strongest attack against Cyclops or Batman because they would kill them instantly. But it's plausible that they would go all out against each other since they have common knowledge and know it probably wouldn't result in an "insta-kill".

What I've explained isn't CIS......



.....It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold.

To be clear, characters like Superman, Silver Surfer, Wonder Woman, Sentry, Captain Marvel (DC), Thor, etc. can and will use all their attributes when the situation allows or is needed. This is still within their personalities since we've seen instances several times. This doesn't mean it's strictly power sets. The feats have to be supported by comic showings.

Originally posted by Mekrob
I mean, these are pretty easy rules to understand.

Apparently not.

The modifications are easy to follow and basically clarify the settings and rules for the Vs Forum. Raoul will be posting the enhanced rules sometime this weekend or earlier. We're not using power sets like some suggested. We're simply making the rules very clear.

I've re-posted the OP to highlight things about battle settings, personalities and self imposed limitations. Added guidelines for personalities will also be covered. Many GL's have killed but that does not mean a GL would try to kill Silver Surfer or Thor. Wonder Women has killed, but that does not mean she'd kill Invisible Woman and in turn Sue would be open to killing Diana. In fact, there aren't many characters who would kill in the Vs Forum setting. The thread starter still has the option to set their own battle stipulations.

Basic knowledge.



It has been argued that the populace wouldn't know some character's powers. That may be true, but for the sake of keeping things simple, both sides know each other's powers.

It's debatable that basic knowledge would include Superman's "weakness" to red sun radiation. I'm leaning towards "no" on that being known. The same way I'd say "no" to Storm's claustrophobia being basic knowledge. That's just my opinion and it's not set in stone.