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Given what we have seen lately of all the alien pantheons out there (SI, God Squad, Chaos War etc.), do you think that any of the alien pantheons fight for their homeworlds when Galactus attacks?

This was sort of touched on with the Zenn-La gods in CW, but wouldn't you think that many of these pantheons would be pissed that Galactus is about to destroy their world and in some cases their worshippers/souls?

So what would happen in these scenarios? Average Galactus arrives on earth to feed. Earth's heroes attack but are defeated. Who would come out victorious - Galactus or Gods:

1) Earth's godly pantheons enact the giant Destroyer gambit against Galactus, just as they did against the Celestial Host.

2) Forget the giant Destroyer - all earth's pantheons, led by Zeus, Odin, and Vishnu launch an all-out direct attack on Galactus as he constructs his feeding machine. So this is several dozens of Skyfathers and their pantheons. They can use whatever godly weapons their realms have to offer. Odin transfers the entire population of earth safely to another dimension to protect them during the battle (as he did once long ago).

3) Earth's elder gods are pissed off. Gaea, Set, Chthon, Demiurge, Oshtur, and all the other Elder Gods and all earthly demons launch an all-out attack on Galactus.

4) Same as 2, but they call on their cousins the Shi'ar, Kree, Zenn-La, and Skrull pantheons to assist in the attack.

This is a spite thread to the extreme.

1) Galactus dies horribly with no casualties on the God Squad side

2) Galactus dies horribly but he takes a some guys out with him

3) Galactus dies horribly and his essence is devoured by either Chthon or Set erasing him from existence forever

4) Galactus dies horribly in a stomp of epic proportions

Galactus eats Pak and all the other PIS writers

Galactus stomps ALL at once and he is still hungry after it

A non-jobbing Galactus would take down all of them, save 3. If Shuma-Gorath is brought in, He would stop Galactus. Galactus has proven he can feed on gods and their realms, as showed when he started eating Aggamotto's realm.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
A non-jobbing Galactus would take down all of them, save 3. If Shuma-Gorath is brought in, He would stop Galactus. Galactus has proven he can feed on gods and their realms, as showed when he started eating Aggamotto's realm.

That was Mephisto's realm and he was just holding his own there. He was holding his own vs Agamotto too.

Now imagine Odin and Zeus among others being thrown into the mix and see how horribly it ends for Galactus.

I wonder how the Great Beasts would fair against Galactus

Well.....tell us. You're pretty much the only authority. Hell, I asked you once if they could take on Shuma-Gorath, and you were unsure.

Mephisto and Agamotto are both quite abit stronger than Odin or Zeus. Pull the other one.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Mephisto and Agamotto are both quite abit stronger than Odin or Zeus. Pull the other one.

You have no proof of this. Odin has busted galaxies. Show me a similar feat by Agamotto or Mephisto.

Well I was, it was only until the recent Alpha Flight Chaos War one-shot did we see them unleashed. People even said they were greater then Satan in Hell. I found that hard to believe personally.

1. Galactus gets stomped.
2. All of Earth's pantheons including their Godly Weapons which also means the Destroyer? An even bigger stomp.
3. Another horrible stomp.
4. Stomped once again.

There's no way anyone who actually reads comics can believe Galactus wins any of these fights.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
A non-jobbing Galactus would take down all of them, save 3.

I really don't think you understand how powerful Galactus is when he stops dicking around and just wants to kill his opponent.

Agamotto in his realm is elder god level, or even abit above. Galactus was eating his realm. What's stopping him from eating Asgard, Olympus, etc?

Yo.

Originally posted by zopzop
That was Mephisto's realm and he was just holding his own there. He was holding his own vs Agamotto too.

Now imagine Odin and Zeus among others being thrown into the mix and see how horribly it ends for Galactus.

under modern writing, I wouldnt be surprised if he lost; classic G would p-smack a sky-father filled Destroyer IMO.




Tazer

Galatcus wins 1, the rest....

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



under modern writing, I wouldnt be surprised if he lost; classic G would p-smack a sky-father filled Destroyer IMO.




Tazer

This.

Galactus at his full potential is supposed to be part of a triumveriate held alongside Death and Eternity, so that kind of tells you just how powerful Galactus CAN be.

Now, assuming non-jobbering and no stupidity shown and Galactus is near the heights of his power he should be able to take this fight since he has held his own with the likes of Mephisto and Agamotto in their own realms before and had the upper hand in at least one of those fights.

Now, I'm sketchy on how he would fair against the combined might of Earth's Elder Gods, but honestly having Demiurge in that lineup would be more a detriment to them then any true aide.

Shuma alone would probably be enough. Unless you don't count him as an elder god. Even Demogorge probably would lose to him.

Depends, how well do skyfathers and eldergods fair against Celestials? Galactus in TI was portrayed as more powerful than them.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Shuma alone would probably be enough. Unless you don't count him as an elder god. Even Demogorge probably would lose to him.

yea shuma isnt an elder god..he is considered part of the old ones

Aside from Shuma, most elder gods are not celestial level. Hell, some of them are skyfather level or lower. And what's the difference between the old ones and elder gods?

Elder gods were primordial Earth based creatures created by Demiurge. It should be noted that Gaea and Set's origins seem to have been retconned recently. Gaea in Chaos War and Set's in Dark Avengers.

Old Ones are an alien race that exists between universes. Shuma Gorath and Hoggoth of the Vishanti are members of that race.

Given that its a hungry galactus, he fails.

Originally posted by vince_slice
Depends, how well do skyfathers and eldergods fair against Celestials? Galactus in TI was portrayed as more powerful than them. Just a single Elder Gods power made a celestial tremble in its sleep.


http://37.imagebam.com/download.php?ID=110297271&salt=97adae&sec=8db897&filesize=600816&filename=Scan015.jpg

Given how surprised Galactus reacted when Mika-Zeus survived his blast in Chaos War, a hungry Galactus takes a lot of the gods down. Thor was barely scratching Galactus in the Devourer mini-series and Galactus' heralds, at a fraction of a fraction of G's power, have shown to be more than a match for Thor and Beta Ray Bill level beings, so I doubt any of the pantheons except the sky father level and above, pose any threat to him, even when hungry.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Just a single Elder Gods power made a celestial tremble in its sleep.


http://37.imagebam.com/download.php?ID=110297271&salt=97adae&sec=8db897&filesize=600816&filename=Scan015.jpg

That scan doesn't seem to work.

Note that Galactus, while cosmic, is very much a physical being...while some of Earth's gods have transcended physical forms...

Originally posted by vince_slice
That scan doesn't seem to work.

That's why I only trust imageshack, here it is :
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3536/silversurfera000203.th.jpg

The mighty Black Celestial aka Tiamut shuddering and moaning at the coming of Set.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's why I only trust imageshack, here it is :
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3536/silversurfera000203.th.jpg

The mighty Black Celestial aka Tiamut shuddering and moaning at the coming of Set.

Celestials > cube beings > elder gods

I don't even want to think about why Tiamut was moaning when he dreamt about Set.

Arguably, Galactus has had so many low showings, and the Celestials so few, that they seem much more impressive than him overall. It is a travesty, but on average, Galactus is going to get his ass kicked here. Marvel should get their sh*t together and retcon all of his low-showings, and make him the cosmic top-dog again.

Originally posted by Simbon
Celestials > cube beings > elder gods

I don't even want to think about why Tiamut was moaning when he dreamt about Set.

Shuddering AND moaning. So unless he has fantasies about being sexually dominated by someone, Tiamut was crapping his pants at Set's ascension.



That's what LordofMurder and I have been saying for the past few months. But not just Galactus, all abstractions including jobber king Eternity.

Originally posted by Falamu
Note that Galactus, while cosmic, is very much a physical being...while some of Earth's gods have transcended physical forms...

This is true. Some Elders like Set, exist on multiple planes of existence simultaneously!
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9422/marveltwoinone06604.th.jpg



But having said that Galactus is all over the place. He has M-bodies (as shown in an issue of Quasar), he he bleeds blood(when Tyrant cut him), he has a skull (something purely abstract or energy beings shouldn't), etc..

Other times he's shown being killed and transformed into a star or bleeding energy.

Originally posted by zopzop
Other times he's shown being killed and transformed into a star or bleeding energy.

And when Galactus(Earth-616) is killed, Abraxas appears.Galactus gets stomped in all.

Originally posted by Igniz
And when Galactus(Earth-616) is killed, Abraxas appears.Galactus gets stomped in all.

I'm not disputing that. Galactus has no chance at all even in step 1 vs the Odin occupied Destroyer armor.

But can we really infer that Set is more powerful or as powerful as Tiamut from an ambiguous statement like that? I "shudder" at the thought of insects, but that doesn't mean they're as powerful or more powerful than me. Any direct or direct (or indirect) battle feats for Elder gods and Celestials?

The reason I ask about Celestials is because in the beginning of Thanos Imperative you had a bunch of abstracts fighting against the Galactus Engine, including Celestials. In Thanos Imperative #2 page 19, It shows Galactus, Aegis, Tenebrous, and 17 Celestials (I'll post the scan with highlights at the bottom) defending at the edge of the fault.

By the end of Thanos Imperative, Galactus by himself was holding off (although slowly losing) the Galactus Engine by himself, while all the other abstracts (including all the Celestials) either fled away or were killed. Surfer even made a comment saying that If Galactus couldn't stop the Galactus Engine, then everyone will die. Based on this I think it's reasonable to think Galactus was the most powerful among all the abstracts present, since he was the last one standing.

Here's the scan. I highlighted all the Celestials with red circles, and counted about 17 of them being present, makes for a total of 19 abstracts who were present at the fault, possibly even more.
http://i53.tinypic.com/8zeiki.jpg

Originally posted by vince_slice
But can we really infer that Set is more powerful or as powerful as Tiamut from an ambiguous statement like that? I "shudder" at the thought of insects, but that doesn't mean they're as powerful or more powerful than me. Any direct or direct (or indirect) battle feats for Elder gods and Celestials?

Do you shudder and moan at the thought of insects? In the scan he was visibly trembling and it even mentioned that when the FF fought Kang at that very spot, Tiamut wasn't disturbed by it at all. But he shuddered and moaned at the coming of Set.

Originally posted by vince_slice

By the end of Thanos Imperative, Galactus by himself was holding off (although slowly losing) the Galactus Engine by himself, while all the other abstracts (including all the Celestials) either fled away or were killed. Surfer even made a comment saying that If Galactus couldn't stop the Galactus Engine, then everyone will die. Based on this I think it's reasonable to think Galactus was the most powerful among all the abstracts present, since he was the last one standing.

Recently Galactus has had two high showings one in the Thanos Imperative the other in Annihilation (with his blast wiping a galaxy clean). If this keeps up, I may change my opinion of him but as of now, he gets slaughtered from the get-go in the OP's gauntlet.

Galactus smacks his bitches up FTW.

Originally posted by zopzop
Do you shudder and moan at the thought of insects? In the scan he was visibly trembling and it even mentioned that when the FF fought Kang at that very spot, Tiamut wasn't disturbed by it at all. But he shuddered and moaned at the coming of Set.

You can shudder in revulsion aswell, and you can moan in sorrow. Neither per say can be said to be directly linked to "shit his pants" if anything he was disgusted by Set's arrival and sad because he could in his current stage (locked away) do nothing to prevent it. But again it's all interpretation, but given the context concerning the Celestials in comparison to the Elder Gods, I find it unlikely that he was "shitting his pants" especially since Tiamut is one of the strongest Celestials.

Originally posted by Utrigita
You can shudder in revulsion aswell, and you can moan in sorrow. Neither per say can be said to be directly linked to "shit his pants" if anything he was disgusted by Set's arrival and sad because he could in his current stage (locked away) do nothing to prevent it. But again it's all interpretation, but given the context concerning the Celestials in comparison to the Elder Gods, I find it unlikely that he was "shitting his pants" especially since Tiamut is one of the strongest Celestials. Exactly. It's quite possible Tiamut views Set and his fellow elder god/demons in the same way as some people see the creepy crawlies that inhabit the dark spaces and outside of their house. Not as a threat but something that disgusts them and they don't particularly like around - even though they are quite capable of getting an exterminator out if they really want to.

Yea, I find it hard to believe that the Tiamut scene was similar to how people view insects.

From what I recall of the Imperative, I would hardly use it as proof that Galactus > other abstracts and Celestials. IIRC, they disappeared off panel. You can argue that they sacrificed themselves and weakened it. No evidence one way or the other. Way too ambiguous it to be sufficient evidence.

Originally posted by Utrigita
You can shudder in revulsion aswell, and you can moan in sorrow. Neither per say can be said to be directly linked to "shit his pants" if anything he was disgusted by Set's arrival and sad because he could in his current stage (locked away) do nothing to prevent it. But again it's all interpretation, but given the context concerning the Celestials in comparison to the Elder Gods, I find it unlikely that he was "shitting his pants" especially since Tiamut is one of the strongest Celestials.

Read the scan again. When the FF fought Kang at that very spot, Kang who was attempting to awaken Tiamut, Tiamut didn't even register it. But the very thought of Set's ascension caused him to shudder and moan. Look at the last picture panel, that doesn't look like disgust in his "eyes". It looks more like fear.

Yo.

Originally posted by zopzop
Shuddering AND moaning. So unless he has fantasies about being sexually dominated by someone, Tiamut was crapping his pants at Set's ascension.

incorrect assumption that the Dreaming Celestial somehow *feared* Sets coming.....




Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



incorrect assumption that the Dreaming Celestial somehow *feared* Sets coming.....




Tazer

Then why did he keep trembling?
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/93/silversurfera000226.th.jpg

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yea, I find it hard to believe that the Tiamut scene was similar to how people view insects.

From what I recall of the Imperative, I would hardly use it as proof that Galactus > other abstracts and Celestials. IIRC, they disappeared off panel. You can argue that they sacrificed themselves and weakened it. No evidence one way or the other. Way too ambiguous it to be sufficient evidence.

I think its quite clear Galactus was depicted as the most powerful abstract present in TI.

You had several abstracts fighting the Galactus Engine, including a handful of Celestials and Galactus himself. We know they were losing because Aegis died fighting it, and narration repeatedly said the Abstracts were struggling to defend against the Engine. By the end, it was Galactus fighting the Engine himself. Surfer reinforces this by saying if Galactus can't stop it, then they'll lose the battle.

It's clear the other abstracts (including the Celestials) either died like Aegis or fled at the end, leaving Galactus to be the last one standing. Galactus was the last one standing and the last obstacle against the engine, which clearly shows he's the most powerful among the abstracts at the fault.

Originally posted by vince_slice
We know they were losing because Aegis died fighting it, and narration repeatedly said the Abstracts were struggling to defend against the Engine.

Yeah Aegis "died" before in Annihilation and she got better. I think it was just her M-body that was destroyed. But still, one decent showing by Galactus and now all of the sudden he's > then the Celestials? Still not convinced.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah Aegis "died" before in Annihilation and she got better. I think it was just her M-body that was destroyed. But still, one decent showing by Galactus and now all of the sudden he's > then the Celestials? Still not convinced.

It was more than a "decent" showing, Galactus was single handedly defending against and holding his own against an Entity powerful enough to take on several abstracts at once (among them included a handful of Celestials).

Originally posted by vince_slice
It was more than a "decent" showing, Galactus was single handedly defending against and holding his own against an Entity powerful enough to take on several abstracts at once (among them included a handful of Celestials).

You ever hear that saying "Even the sun shines on a dog's ass every once in a while"? This was a case of that.

Originally posted by zopzop
Read the scan again. When the FF fought Kang at that very spot, Kang who was attempting to awaken Tiamut, Tiamut didn't even register it. But the very thought of Set's ascension caused him to shudder and moan. Look at the last picture panel, that doesn't look like disgust in his "eyes". It looks more like fear.

Did Kang and Set suddenly somehow become equal in powerlevel or threat level? Because else I don't see any justification in the comparison. No the last panel looks like he is about to cry, hence the moan part, which can be replaced with grief, pain, or dissatisfaction, still a long way from being anything remotely close to "shitting his pants". Either way as said before, it's how you interpret the given scene, luckily what you have presented isn't all the material we have to compare the Celestials against the Elder Gods.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Did Kang and Set suddenly somehow become equal in powerlevel or threat level? Because else I don't see any justification in the comparison.

It was during Inferno and Kang was attempting to free Tiamut, but Tiamut didn't even react (positively or negatively). If the Inferno Event and Kang attempting to free him doesn't register but the mere thought of Set's rise causes him to shudder and moan what does that tell you about Set?



Yeah "cry" because he's so big hearted. This was before his Eternals retcon when he was known as the Great Renegade because he committed a crime against life itself (hence why he was imprisoned by the Celestials).

PS when have the Elder Gods even made contact with Celestials?

Originally posted by zopzop
You ever hear that saying "Even the sun shines on a dog's ass every once in a while"? This was a case of that.

How do you think Earth's godly Pantheons would fare against the Galactus Engine?

Originally posted by vince_slice
How do you think Earth's godly Pantheons would fare against the Galactus Engine?

Who knows? They couldn't have fared any worse than Galactus. Korvac admitted that a battle between him and Odin, Zeus and Mephisto would wreck 616 reality. So I'm betting they'd fare pretty well.

Originally posted by zopzop
It was during Inferno and Kang was attempting to free Tiamut, but Tiamut didn't even react (positively or negatively). If the Inferno Event and Kang attempting to free him doesn't register but the mere thought of Set's rise causes him to shudder and moan what does that tell you about Set?

It tells me that Set is a greater threat then Kang, something that I doesn't need a celestial to point out for me. Again why is the comparison even remotely interesting or how does it in any ways serve to strengthen your point that Set either equals or are above the Celestial Tiamut, because Kang wasn't? Is that the argument?

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah "cry" because he's so big hearted. This was before his Eternals retcon when he was known as the Great Renegade because he committed a crime against life itself (hence why he was imprisoned by the Celestials).

It's another interpretation, that is certainly more valid imo then thinking that one of the stongest Celestial should be afraid of a Elder God, when you think of what a unknown could do to a cube level being. A crime that at the time was rather vague, today we know that he fought to perserve the cycle that his brothers where breaking, actually we also know from scans that Tiamut toke a active part in trimming down the Defiants. However is this relevant? Not really, if anything Tiamut could (if we apply the current information to the past incident) just by pissed that he would never (if the earth was destroyed) have the chance to correct the error his brothers did.

Originally posted by zopzop
PS when have the Elder Gods even made contact with Celestials?

They didn't but suffice to say that Atum in his demon form chased them off, I for one find it logical that the Celestials could have handled the Elder Gods easily, unless you have some scans that point to the elder gods possible confrontation with Arishem, instead of Odin, Vishnu and Zeus, having a significantly different outcome, I don't see any reason to even assume that Tiamut was afraid of Set.

Originally posted by vince_slice
I think its quite clear Galactus was depicted as the most powerful abstract present in TI.

Not clearly enough apparently.

Originally posted by vince_slice
You had several abstracts fighting the Galactus Engine, including a handful of Celestials and Galactus himself. We know they were losing because Aegis died fighting it, and narration repeatedly said the Abstracts were struggling to defend against the Engine. By the end, it was Galactus fighting the Engine himself. Surfer reinforces this by saying if Galactus can't stop it, then they'll lose the battle.

It's clear the other abstracts (including the Celestials) either died like Aegis or fled at the end, leaving Galactus to be the last one standing. Galactus was the last one standing and the last obstacle against the engine, which clearly shows he's the most powerful among the abstracts at the fault.

It's clear? Where was this stated? Aegis was shown dying but I don't recall any fleeing.

You're assuming all the other Abstracts died, and Galactus was left holding the line on his own. That doesn't even make sense. We know that Aegis, Tenebrous, Arishem etc. are definitely on Galan's level. Galactus including all the other Abstracts were fighting the engine on all fronts and we're still losing.

It's far more likely imo that the engine was weakened by the combined forces assembled that by the time it reached Galan, it wasn't strong enough to defeat him if you want to take guesses. That is, if you're assuming all the other Abstracts died fighting or whatever.

Originally posted by Utrigita
It tells me that Set is a greater threat then Kang, something that I doesn't need a celestial to point out for me. Again why is the comparison even remotely interesting or how does it in any ways serve to strengthen your point that Set either equals or are above the Celestial Tiamut, because Kang wasn't? Is that the argument?

You're not understanding my point. Tiamut didn't moan or tremble when Inferno was going down, he didn't react at all when Kang was just outside his mountain prison attempting to free him (hence the reference by the narrator about the Kang/FF fight just outside his prison).

Yet the mere THOUGHT of Set's arrival on Earth (he wasn't even free of his dimension yet) caused a Celestial to shudder and moan.





No his crime wasn't vague at all. He was the one that altered Galactus, against Galactus' will by the way, to make his hunger insatiable and caused him to consume the universe. This was the timeline that the FF wiped out by giving Galactus the Nullifier.

So this "big hearted" being who devised a doomsday weapon to wipe out an entire universe wasn't weeping at all.




We don't know since they never made contact with each other. By the way it seems that Marvel is retconning some Elder Gods' origins. Look at Gaea and Chaos War.

Look at Set in the Secret Avengers :
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4827/secretavengers03016.th.jpg

The whole point of the 4 story arc was to stop one of his children from rising from beneath Mars and freeing his other siblings before they went on to unleash their Father, Set, upon the universe.

Originally posted by zopzop
We don't know since they never made contact with each other. By the way it seems that Marvel is retconning some Elder Gods' origins. Look at Gaea and Chaos War.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4827/secretavengers03016.th.jpg

Damn, forgot about that arc. The Demuirge origin is completely forgotten even for the Elder Gods. Set being older than Galan and the Celestials makes no sense using it. Neither is Gaea being the mother of all creation or whatever.

As the Gods rise, the Abstracts fall.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Not clearly enough apparently.



It's clear? Where was this stated? Aegis was shown dying but I don't recall any fleeing.

You're assuming all the other Abstracts died, and Galactus was left holding the line on his own. That doesn't even make sense. We know that Aegis, Tenebrous, Arishem etc. are definitely on Galan's level. Galactus including all the other Abstracts were fighting the engine on all fronts and we're still losing.

It's far more likely that the engine was weakened by the combined forces assembled that by the time it reached Galan, it wasn't strong enough to defeat him. That is, if you're assuming all the other Abstracts died fighting.

Not clear enough for you I guess.

I never assumed the bolded, I said it's likely they either fled or they died like Aegis, and that's why they disappeared. Unless you think they took a short lunch break?

Far more likely the engine was weakened? Show me anything in the entire TI books that even remotely indicate the Galactus Engine was weakened by the end. I have all the scans, refer me to any shred of proof of your statement.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Damn, forgot about that arc. The Demuirge origin is completely forgotten even for the Elder Gods. Set being older than Galan and the Celestials makes no sense using it. Neither is Gaea being the mother of all creation or whatever.

As the Gods rise, the Abstracts fall.

Dude if you never read the story I recommend you do. It had that "Prince of Darkness" by John Carpenter feel to it. It was very well done.

I read the story. Liked it.

Originally posted by vince_slice
Not clear enough for you I guess.

I never assumed the bolded, I said it's likely they either fled or they died like Aegis, and that's why they disappeared. Unless you think they took a short lunch break?

Far more likely the engine was weakened? Show me anything in the entire TI books that even remotely indicate the Galactus Engine was weakened by the end. I have all the scans, refer me to any shred of proof of your statement.

I can re-read the story if need be. Just tell me the most relevant issue number. IIRC, they didn't focus that much on the Abstracts.

Be more specific. When you quote a post, everything is automatically bolded. I don't think any of them fled. Not with what was at stake. It's possible the Celestials might have gotten bored and just left. Most likely in my opinion, there physical bodies fell fighting (Doubt any of them really died. At least not the Celestials).

Just common sense. If we're taking pot shots at what most likely happened, that's by far the most likely scenario in my opinion. If Galactus could hold the line on his own -which is what you're claiming isn't it?- why the hell were they still losing with a dozen other Abstracts all on his level and some arguably higher? Even if you think Galactus is superior to other Abstracts, you can't possibly believe the gap would be large.

Originally posted by snobsnob
You're not understanding my point. Tiamut didn't moan or tremble when Inferno was going down, he didn't react at all when Kang was just outside his mountain prison attempting to free him (hence the reference by the narrator about the Kang/FF fight just outside his prison).

Yet the mere THOUGHT of Set's arrival on Earth (he wasn't even free of his dimension yet) caused a Celestial to shudder and moan.


I ask again why would Tiamut find Kang relevant, and why is the comparison between Kang and Set relevant aswell?

And again the only reason there is anything to shudder and moan is because those two words, from your perspective is implying that a Celestial should feel fear because of Set.

Originally posted by snobsnob
No his crime wasn't vague at all. He was the one that altered Galactus, against Galactus' will by the way, to make his hunger insatiable and caused him to consume the universe. This was the timeline that the FF wiped out by giving Galactus the Nullifier.

So this "big hearted" being who devised a doomsday weapon to wipe out an entire universe wasn't weeping at all.

In a alternate reality that had absolutely nothing to do at all with his imprisonment on Earth, which happened when the second Celestial host visited Earth iirc. Tiamut was already trapped on Earth when he performed his changes to Galactus.

Two different Tiamut (and at the same time a retconned incident).

Originally posted by snobsnob
We don't know since they never made contact with each other. By the way it seems that Marvel is retconning some Elder Gods' origins. Look at Gaea and Chaos War.

Look at Set in the Secret Avengers :
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4827/secretavengers03016.th.jpg

The whole point of the 4 story arc was to stop one of his children from rising from beneath Mars and freeing his other siblings before they went on to unleash their Father, Set, upon the universe.

Yes a retcon that is vague that even the writer has problems formulating exactly in which way Gaea's supposed amp worked in Chaos War. And this doesn't in any way give some mysterious amp to the Elder Gods, being before something doesn't equal that you obtain more power. And until actually changed (which it as of yet haven't) a unknown Celestial was capable of taking out a cube level being, anything that point towards the Elder gods being capable of such a thing?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Even if you assume Galactus is superior to other Abstracts, you can't possibly believe the gap would be large.

Don't forget how Teneberous by himself was giving Galactus a fight and looked like he was getting the better of him till Aegis arrived and ended it instantly.

Originally posted by zopzop
Don't forget how Teneberous by himself was giving Galactus a fight and looked like he was getting the better of him till Aegis arrived and ended it instantly.

True. To be fair, it was said Galactus was caught off guard. Of course that was a retelling in the credit page of the issue, but still, second hand evidence is better than none.

I still don't see how you can believe that Galactus held off the engine off by itself.

Originally posted by Utrigita
I ask again why would Tiamut find Kang relevant, and why is the comparison between Kang and Set relevant aswell?

And again the only reason there is anything to shudder and moan is because those two words, from your perspective is implying that a Celestial should feel fear because of Set.

Kang was battling the FF outside Tiamut's prison while attempting to free him. Tiamut didn't even acknowledge the fight as mentioned by the narrator.

Yeah I shudder and moan about the approach of things that are beneath me all the time! Everyone does!




The point was, at that time Tiamut was considered "evil". The Eternals retconn didn't come into play until over a decade later.





You got proof, not talk, of a Celestial taking out a Cube level being? Because despite what Kubik said, the Celestials best feats don't compare, at all, to Cube Beings. I give you Kubik vs Beyonder and MM vs Beyoner/Kosmos and compare that to the Celestials vs Thanos with the IG. I rest my case.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I read the story. Liked it.



I can re-read the story if need be. Just tell me the most relevant issue number. IIRC, they didn't focus that much on the Abstracts.

Be more specific. When you quote a post, everything is automatically bolded. I don't think any of them fled. Not with what was at stake. It's possible the Celestials might have gotten bored and just left. Most likely in my opinion, there physical bodies fell fighting (Doubt any of them really died. At least not the Celestials).

Just common sense. If we're taking pot shots at what most likely happened, that's by far the most likely scenario in my opinion. If Galactus could hold the line on his own, why the hell were they still losing with a dozen other Abstracts all on his level and some arguably higher? Even if you assume Galactus is superior to other Abstracts, you can't possibly believe the gap would be large.

You don't have to check, because I checked for you. I couldn't find anything that remotely indicates that the Galactus Engine was weakening, weakened, or even damaged in the issues. Abstracts appeared in issue 2, 3, 5, and 6, you're free to look for yourself.

You said you didn't think any of the Celestials fled because of the stakes at hand, yet you think they might of left out of boredom? That doesn't really make sense. I still think they disappeared because they fled or their physical bodies died, leaving Galactus to take on the Engine himself.

Surfer also specifically pointed out if Galactus (not any other abstract) couldn't stop the engine, they'd all be toast. This also implies that Galactus was the most powerful on the field.

I don't know how large the gap is, he's clearly way above Aegis though. He's more powerful than the average Celestial that's for sure.

The evidence on this matter is on Vince's side not the other way around. Assumptions and presumptions aren't evidence.

Yo.

Originally posted by zopzop
Then why did he keep trembling?
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/93/silversurfera000226.th.jpg

finding something disturbing doesnt *not* automatically = FEAR




Tazer

Originally posted by vince_slice
You don't have to check, because I checked for you. I couldn't find anything that remotely indicates that the Galactus Engine was weakening, weakened, or even damaged in the issues. Abstracts appeared in issue 2, 3, 5, and 6, you're free to look for yourself.

You said you didn't think any of the Celestials fled because of the stakes at hand, yet you think they might of left out of boredom? That doesn't really make sense. I still think they disappeared because they fled or their physical bodies died, leaving Galactus to take on the Engine himself.

Surfer also specifically pointed out if Galactus (not any other abstract) couldn't stop the engine, they'd all be toast. This also implies that Galactus was the most powerful on the field.

I don't know how large the gap is, he's clearly way above Aegis though. He's more powerful than the average Celestial that's for sure.

I forgot to mention there's solid evidence that abstracts were retreating or fled. TI #3 page 19.

Blastaar: "The Galactus Engine is tearing through everything we have, even the abstracts seem to be in retreat"

Originally posted by vince_slice
I forgot to mention there's solid evidence that abstracts were retreating or fled. TI #3 page 19.

Blastaar: "The Galactus Engine is tearing through everything we have, even the abstracts seem to be in retreat"

See what I underlined?

A lot of cynical interpretations in this thread. Since when does being the last man standing imply anything other than being the most powerful?! :/

Originally posted by zopzop
See what I underlined?

What's your point?

Originally posted by vince_slice
What's your point?

"Seems to be" in retreat doesn't mean they were retreating. Early in the series Nova was commenting that the Abstracts don't seem to be doing much of anything, but the Surfer told him, the battle was taking place on levels they couldn't comprehend. So it "seemed" to Blaastar that they were retreating but that doesn't mean they were.

Originally posted by zopzop
"Seems to be" in retreat doesn't mean they were retreating. Early in the series Nova was commenting that the Abstracts don't seem to be doing much of anything, but the Surfer told him, the battle was taking place on levels they couldn't comprehend. So it "seemed" to Blaastar that they were retreating but that doesn't mean they were.

Earlier you saw several abstracts fighting the Galactus Engine. Later, it was mentioned the abstracts were losing and Blastaar says the abstracts seem to be retreating. At the end, the only abstract left standing and fighting was Galactus.

Doesn't get as clear as that...

Originally posted by vince_slice
Earlier you saw several abstracts fighting the Galactus Engine. Later, it was mentioned the abstracts were losing and Blastaar says the abstracts seem to be retreating. At the end, the only abstract left standing and fighting was Galactus.

Doesn't get as clear as that...

Sure it does, first of all no one there was an actual abstract. Abstracts represent concepts like Anomaly, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Hate, Order, etc.. If anything the beings present were Cosmics not Abstracts. What concept do the Celestials represent? Galactus? Aegis and Teneberous?

Second of all, is Blaastar more cosmically aware than Nova with WorldMind? If not, how would he know they were retreating as opposed to taking the fight to another plane of reality?

Originally posted by zopzop
Sure it does, first of all no one there was an actual abstract. Abstracts represent concepts like Anomaly, Death, Oblivion, Infinity, Hate, Order, etc.. If anything the beings present were Cosmics not Abstracts. What concept do the Celestials represent? Galactus? Aegis and Teneberous?

Second of all, is Blaastar more cosmically aware than Nova with WorldMind? If not, how would he know they were retreating as opposed to taking the fight to another plane of reality?

Your first point is arbitrary, I called them abstracts because the comic called them abstracts. But what we call them has nothing to do with the argument.

Not being able to perceive abstracts fighting =/= Not being able to tell if they're retreating.

Blastaar was right about them retreating because by the end of the book, the only abstract left fighting was Galactus. This was also reconfirmed by Surfer, and he was the one who originally perceived the abstracts fighting on another plane.

Like I said before:

1. Several abstracts were fighting the Galactus Engine

2. The abstracts were losing and one of them even died (Aegis)

3. Blastaar mentioned that the abstracts were retreating

4. By the end the only abstract left fighting the Engine was Galactus.

5. Surfer confirms that if Galactus can't beat the Engine they're all doomed.

Originally posted by vince_slice
Your first point is arbitrary, I called them abstracts because the comic called them abstracts. But what we call them has nothing to do with the argument.

Not being able to perceive abstracts fighting =/= Not being able to tell if they're retreating.

Blastaar was right about them retreating because by the end of the book, the only abstract left fighting was Galactus. This was also reconfirmed by Surfer, and he was the one who originally perceived the abstracts fighting on another plane.

Like I said before:

1. Several abstracts were fighting the Galactus Engine

2. The abstracts were losing and one of them even died (Aegis)

3. Blastaar mentioned that the abstracts were retreating

4. By the end the only abstract left fighting the Engine was Galactus.

5. Surfer confirms that if Galactus can't beat the Engine they're all doomed.

None of them were "abstracts", unless you can tell me what concept they represent.

Aegis has "died" before so it's meaningless.

Blastaar has no cosmic awareness so what he says doesn't matter, especially if it "seemed" to him as opposed to what is actually happening beyond his limited perception.

This was a rare good showing for Galactus? Even Sentry had the MM fight and Spiderman the Firelord fight. Everyone gets at least one. Congrats to the jobber king of cosmics.

Originally posted by zopzop
None of them were "abstracts", unless you can tell me what concept they represent.

Aegis has "died" before so it's meaningless.

Blastaar has no cosmic awareness so what he says doesn't matter, especially if it "seemed" to him as opposed to what is actually happening beyond his limited perception.

This was a rare good showing for Galactus? Even Sentry had the MM fight and Spiderman the Firelord fight. Everyone gets at least one. Congrats to the jobber king of cosmics.

I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here?

Are you trying to say Galactus didn't fight the Engine by himself? The "abstracts" weren't really losing against the Engine? The Celestials didn't really flee, they were there fighting all along, you just couldn't see them because we're mortals?

You'd make a great news anchor for Fox News.

Originally posted by vince_slice
I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to argue here?

Are you trying to say Galactus didn't fight the Engine by himself? The "abstracts" weren't really losing against the Engine? The Celestials didn't really flee, they were there fighting all along, you just couldn't see them because we're mortals?

You'd make a great news anchor for Fox News.

LOL you are so cool!

No really spazz, none of them were abstracts and "dying" to the cosmics is meaningless since two of the cosmics fighting "died" previously and yet here they were fighting.

The Surfer was wrong, because not only did Galactus NOT beat the Engine, an actual Abstract, Death, did.

How's that for my Fox News skills?

Originally posted by zopzop
"Seems to be" in retreat doesn't mean they were retreating. Early in the series Nova was commenting that the Abstracts don't seem to be doing much of anything, but the Surfer told him, the battle was taking place on levels they couldn't comprehend. So it "seemed" to Blaastar that they were retreating but that doesn't mean they were.

You're definitely arguing just for the sake of maintaining your position. The intent of DnA was quite clear by both their writing and sepulveda's art. Their intent was primarily to establish the Galactus Engine as a credible huge threat so they could set some dramatic tension. Having a character state that "even the abstracts seem to be in retreat" while arguing that couldn't be the case is really a straw man position since at no point in the rest of the story do you have any evidence supporting your conjecture. In fact the story STRONGLY supports the statement. In this case the burden of proof is on you that they didn't retreat, in other words, show evidence to the contrary.

You could nit-pick the fact that earlier in issue #2 Surfer tells Nova and Quasar that all is not as it seems for the battle, which is taking place on several planes of reality.

You could do that, but the point is moot since we've established that surfer is the authority in terms of perceiving what is going on in the battle. In that case, his blunt statement that if Galactus -and Galactus alone - could not stop the Galactus Engine, then all would be lost means that you have no basis to doubt the retreat statment. You're arguing a style of syntax and the logic behind your argument doesn't add up.

In other words, surfer's statement categorically supports the earlier observation that "the abstracts seem to be in retreat" rather than your conjecture that they didn't retreat. You can't just chose to believe surfer in issue #2, then choose to not believe him in the last issue.

You could maintain your point but at this juncture you would need to provide evidence that trumps Surfer's statement, the lack of any Celestials in the final issue, and the requirement of the paltry fleets to move in directly to support Galactus, something that the story wouldn't require if the Celestials were still around (literally throwing even the kitcken sink into the battle creates hightened tensions. For what are fleets of ships amongst a battle of cosmic beings?).

... At the right hunger level... Galan clears it... Against the skyfathers

No amount of Zeus thumping is gonna make me change my mind...
Unless we start mentioning dormammu... Shuma.. Etc

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
You're definitely arguing just for the sake of maintaining your position. The intent of DnA was quite clear by both their writing and sepulveda's art. Their intent was primarily to establish the Galactus Engine as a credible huge threat so they could set some dramatic tension. Having a character state that "even the abstracts seem to be in retreat" while arguing that couldn't be the case is really a straw man position since at no point in the rest of the story do you have any evidence supporting your conjecture. In fact the story STRONGLY supports the statement. In this case the burden of proof is on you that they didn't retreat, in other words, show evidence to the contrary.

You could nit-pick the fact that earlier in issue #2 Surfer tells Nova and Quasar that all is not as it seems for the battle, which is taking place on several planes of reality.

You could do that, but the point is moot since we've established that surfer is the authority in terms of perceiving what is going on in the battle. In that case, his blunt statement that if Galactus -and Galactus alone - could not stop the Galactus Engine, then all would be lost.

That categorically supports the earlier observation that "the abstracts seem to be in retreat" rather than your conjecture that they didn't retreat.

You could maintain your point but at this juncture you would need to provide evidence that trumps Surfer's statement, the lack of any Celestials in the final issue, and the requirement of the paltry fleets to move in directly to support Galactus, something that the story wouldn't require if the Celestials were still around (literally throwing even the kitcken sink into the battle creates hightened tensions. For what are fleets of ships amongst a battle of cosmic beings?).

Even assuming the other "abstracts" who aren't really abstracts retreated, leaving only Galactus, this means nothing. It could be a rare good showing for the fool.

In the end a REAL abstract, Death, did the actual winning.

Originally posted by rotiart
... At the right hunger level... Galan clears it... Against the skyfathers

No amount of Zeus thumping is gonna make me change my mind...
Unless we start mentioning dormammu... Shuma.. Etc

BS. Skyfather's like Odin have better showings than Gorath or Dormammu. Odin stalemated Dormammu and has been shown busting galaxies.

Galactus dies horribly.

Originally posted by zopzop
LOL you are so cool!

No really spazz, none of them were abstracts and "dying" to the cosmics is meaningless since two of the cosmics fighting "died" previously and yet here they were fighting.

The Surfer was wrong, because not only did Galactus NOT beat the Engine, an actual Abstract, Death, did.

How's that for my Fox News skills?

I'd say you'd fit perfectly at Fox.

So when Aegis died, is she still fighting the Galactus Engine or is she not?

The Surfer clearly meant all the abstracts present at the fault. The fact that you didn't know this makes me question whether or not you read TI.

Or maybe you're just trolling.

Originally posted by vince_slice
I'd say you'd fit perfectly at Fox.

So when Aegis died, is she still fighting the Galactus Engine or is she not?

The Surfer clearly meant all the abstracts present at the fault. The fact that you didn't know this makes me question whether or not you read TI.

Or maybe you're just trolling.

Aegis and Teneberous "died" when the Surfer doused them with Crunch energies at the end of Annihilation, were they fighting in Thanos Imperative or not?

The fact that NONE of the beings present at the fault were actual abstracts makes me question whether you know what an abstract concept is.

The irony is delicious when you realize that when an actual abstract showed up, the fighting was over in an instant.

Look who's calling who a troll. You're the one that began with the insults yet you accuse me of trolling.

Originally posted by zopzop
Even assuming the other "abstracts" who aren't really abstracts retreated, leaving only Galactus, this means nothing. It could be a rare good showing for the fool.

In the end a REAL abstract, Death, did the actual winning.

You know, even if I weren't a fan of Galactus, I would look at the facts and the facts are many started the battle, only 1 remained to oppose the aggressor. That definitely means something. It doesn't matter if it's Galactus or Spider-Man, Exodus vs. the X-Men and Avengers combined or Odin vs. the Infinity Watch. Give credit where credit is due. You're just arguing for the sake of taking the opposite position with no real basis.

Death simply brought her concept to the Cancerverse. Death was more a resolution to the story than a combatant on the field. Doesn't detract from the showing at all and doesn't have any bearing on the discussion at hand. I don't know why you brought it up.

Originally posted by zopzop
Aegis and Teneberous "died" when the Surfer doused them with Crunch energies at the end of Annihilation, were they fighting in Thanos Imperative or not?

The fact that NONE of the beings present at the fault were actual abstracts makes me question whether you know what an abstract concept is.

The irony is delicious when you realize that when an actual abstract showed up, the fighting was over in an instant.

Look who's calling who a troll. You're the one that began with the insults yet you accuse me of trolling.

You're really grasping at straws there trying to argue what to call Galactus and the Celestials. I refer to them as "abstracts" because that's what they were called in the Thanos Imperative comic. You can call them whatever you want, Cosmic gods, Primordial gods, Abstracts, doesn't matter because it's arbitrary to the argument.

You didn't answer my question. After Aegist "died" is she or is she not still fighting against the Galactus Engine?

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
You know, even if I weren't a fan of Galactus, I would look at the facts and the facts are many started the battle, only 1 remained to oppose the aggressor. That definitely means something. It doesn't matter if it's Galactus or Spider-Man, Exodus vs. the X-Men and Avengers combined or Odin vs. the Infinity Watch. Give credit where credit is due. You're just arguing for the sake of taking the opposite position with no real basis.

Death simply brought her concept to the Cancerverse. Death was more a resolution to the story than a combatant on the field. Doesn't detract from the showing at all and doesn't have any bearing on the discussion at hand. I don't know why you brought it up.

Yes and Spiderman beat Firelord, Spiderman KOed the Hulk with a garbage truck, Sentry beat Molecule Man, Thor trounced Glory, etc... High showings happen. This was the first one in a long time for Galactus. Gratz to him.

Death, an actual abstract, annihilated the Cancerverse. It's power output was so vast they felt it in 616 reality. It atomized the Galactus Engine. It literally ended the threat once and for all (or at least till the Old Ones respawn).

Originally posted by vince_slice
You're really grasping at straws there trying to argue what to call Galactus and the Celestials. I refer to them as "abstracts" because that's what they were called in the Thanos Imperative comic. You can call them whatever you want, Cosmic gods, Primordial gods, Abstracts, doesn't matter because it's arbitrary to the argument.

Can I call them Omega Level Mutants? Would that still be correct? Of course not because that's not what they are. They are cosmics entities but they are not abstracts unless you can tell me what concept they represent. Becuase I can tell you what concept ACTUAL abstract beings represent because it's their actual title : Death, Order, Chaos, Infinity, Oblivion, Eon, Epoch, Eternity, Love, Hate. What abstract concept does Galactus represent? Aegis? Teneberous? The individual Celestials who were at the fault?



Who knows? What was she and Teneberous even doing there since they "died" at the end of Annihilation. Answer that first then I'll answer your question, since Annihilation took place before Thanos Imperative.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes and Spiderman beat Firelord, Spiderman KOed the Hulk with a garbage truck, Sentry beat Molecule Man, Thor trounced Glory, etc... High showings happen. This was the first one in a long time for Galactus. Gratz to him.

Death, an actual abstract, annihilated the Cancerverse. It's power output was so vast they felt it in 616 reality. It atomized the Galactus Engine. It literally ended the threat once and for all (or at least till the Old Ones respawn).

SMvsFL is complete garbage and not a high showing at all. Thor actually literally would have died if not for that woman. Is Galactus' effort a high showing? Perhaps. High showings occur when something extraordinary happens. The low showings you conjure for Galactus are always when he is hungry and/or near death. All of them. That is not the case in TI so is in the sense an extraordinary occurence? Yes because Galactus is rarely portrayed as NOT hungry. Is it a high showing for the character in specific? Debatable. That's another thread all together. It's a good showing. And it's absolutely not ludicrous at all to think Galactus could hold his own when you compare Spider-Man vs. Firelord, which is widely criticized for it's stupidity.

Death brought the one thing to the Cancerverse that it was entirely built on. Why are you mentioning Death? Death never joined the battle at the Fault and Death's role was simply to bring the equivalent of Kryptonite to the Cancerverse. You chop off the head and the whole body collapses.

Again, you're just arguing for the sake of being stubborn. Death wasn't at the battle. Surfer was clearly referencing those entities involved directly in the battle. Death has no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. Cosmo could just as equally have taken the Ultimate Nullifier into the Cancerverse, and nullified the whole damn place and achieve the same things Death did.

Yet neither Cosmo nor Death were at the battle, so what is the point.

Originally posted by zopzop
Can I call them Omega Level Mutants? Would that still be correct? Of course not because that's not what they are. They are cosmics entities but they are not abstracts unless you can tell me what concept they represent. Becuase I can tell you what concept ACTUAL abstract beings represent because it's their actual title : Death, Order, Chaos, Infinity, Oblivion, Eon, Epoch, Eternity, Love, Hate. What abstract concept does Galactus represent? Aegis? Teneberous? The individual Celestials who were at the fault?



Who knows? What was she and Teneberous even doing there since they "died" at the end of Annihilation. Answer that first then I'll answer your question, since Annihilation took place before Thanos Imperative.

Then go send an angry email to DnA because it was their book that called Galactus and the Celestials "abstracts". What we call them has no relevance to my argument though.

As for Tenebrous and Aegis dying in Annihilation, their "death" took them out of commission for a while, and they were no longer a threat to Galactus and Surfer after they supposedly died.

The same can be said for Aegis when she died in TI, she was taken out of commission and could no longer contribute to the battle against the Engine. Therefore she was properly defeated and her defeat was meaningful, not meaningless like you argue.

Galactus is the Eternity of Galan of Taa's universe merged with Galan himself. So while not entirely abstract, it's totally inaccurate to say that Galactus is not an abstract by any sense of the word.

The Celestials though are a different matter.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
SMvsFL is complete garbage and not a high showing at all. Thor actually literally would have died if not for that woman. Is Galactus' effort a high showing? Perhaps. High showings occur when something extraordinary happens. The low showings you conjure for Galactus are always when he is hungry and/or near death. All of them. That is not the case in TI so is in the sense an extraordinary occurence? Yes because Galactus is rarely portrayed as NOT hungry. Is it a high showing for the character in specific? Debatable. That's another thread all together. It's a good showing. And it's absolutely not ludicrous at all to think Galactus could hold his own when you compare Spider-Man vs. Firelord, which is widely criticized for it's stupidity.

Death brought the one thing to the Cancerverse that it was entirely built on. Why are you mentioning Death? Death never joined the battle at the Fault and Death's role was simply to bring the equivalent of Kryptonite to the Cancerverse. You chop off the head and the whole body collapses.

Again, you're just arguing for the sake of being stubborn. Death wasn't at the battle. Surfer was clearly referencing those entities involved directly in the battle. Death has no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. Cosmo could just as equally have taken the Ultimate Nullifier into the Cancerverse, and nullified the whole damn place and achieve the same things Death did.

Yet neither Cosmo nor Death were at the battle, so what is the point.

Were those 'high showings' stupid? That's your opinion. I forgot to mention Sentry stalemating Galactus off panel or Quasar holding his own vs Galactus in an issue off FF with Galactus stating he was exasperated.

I consider it "stupid", assuming it's true, that the Celestials and Teneberous fled while Galactus was barely holding his own vs the Engine. I consider it "stupid" that Aegis "died". I consider it "stupid" that Aegis and Teneberous were even there seeing as how they bit it in Annihilation.

Did you even read the story arc? You're really going to make me post the scans of an ACTUAL abstract annihilating the Cancerverse, the Old Ones, and the Galactus engine and people in 616 mentioning that the energy output was off the scales?

Originally posted by vince_slice
Then go send an angry email to DnA because it was their book that called Galactus and the Celestials "abstracts". What we call them has no relevance to my argument though.

I'm not angry at all. I'm just pointing out the difference between a cosmic being and an abstract to you. If anything you seem to be the one having anger issues.



Actually a more accurate statement would be it's, Aegis', M-body was destroyed, not the actual cosmic being. Since it was shown in Quasar that even non abstracts like the Watchers, the Celestials, and Galactus use M-bodies.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
Galactus is the Eternity of Galan of Taa's universe merged with Galan himself. So while not entirely abstract, it's totally inaccurate to say that Galactus is not an abstract by any sense of the word.

The Celestials though are a different matter.

What concept does Galactus represent? None! Maelstrom even taunted Galactus about this little fact during Cosmos in Collision.

Originally posted by zopzop
Were those 'high showings' stupid? That's your opinion. I forgot to mention Sentry stalemating Galactus off panel or Quasar holding his own vs Galactus in an issue off FF with Galactus stating he was exasperated.

I consider it "stupid", assuming it's true, that the Celestials and Teneberous fled while Galactus was barely holding his own vs the Engine. I consider it "stupid" that Aegis "died". I consider it "stupid" that Aegis and Teneberous were even there seeing as how they bit it in Annihilation.

Did you even read the story arc? You're really going to make me post the scans of an ACTUAL abstract annihilating the Cancerverse, the Old Ones, and the Galactus engine and people in 616 mentioning that the energy output was off the scales?

If you want to create a Spider-Man vs. Firelord thread here, please do so. And I'm calling it stupid right this second.

And dude, stop being such an ass by asking if I read the actual arc. That's such an idiotic tactic here on the forums to try and make your point stronger.

You clearly aren't getting the point. Bring anything that is missing, to a body that is missing it, and you attain equilibrium. What the **** does Death have to do with this? You made some biased statements concerning G and I deconstructed them. You come back screaming about Death, what the **** does Death have to do with this? Was Death at the battle? Was Death even among those surfer was referring to? Death ended the Cancerverse because she represented what the Cancerverse lacked. What are you trying to prove? Seriously? Stop being an ass about it and thinking you're the only one with knowledge of these characters or an interest in these stories. This type of shit is getting really tiresome on KMC. Seriously, grow up and learn how to communicate like an adult, unless you're 12 years old.

Originally posted by Power Cosmic II
If you want to create a Spider-Man vs. Firelord thread here, please do so. And I'm calling it stupid right this second.

If it was just Spiderman vs Firelord, you'd have a point. But other high showings have him giving the X-men a hard time in Secret Wars or KOing the Hulk with a garbage truck. This Thanos Imperative showing was a rare high showing for Galactus (assuming the other "abstracts" fled even).



Nice temper tantrum. Death did more than merely represent what the Cancerverse lacked. It lashed out at Lord Marvel and then the Old Ones and then their entire universe. The energy wave was so powerful they felt its effects in 616 reality. It wasn't a passive "here I am fear me" thing, it was an active act of lashing out with her power vs the Old Ones and their entire universe. I'm guessing I do have to post the scans because either your memory of the event is bad or you really didn't bother to read it.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's what LordofMurder and I have been saying for the past few months. But not just Galactus, all abstractions including jobber king Eternity.



Given what Galactus is supposed to be (the middle force between Death and Eternity), he should clear every single senario in the OP every single time...

BUT going by average showings, zopzop is 100% correct, Galactus has no chance in any of the senario's listed here...


Marvel just needs to blow everything up and start over; at current, most of the abstracts are a joke relative to what they theoretically should be capable of doing...

While Marvel has freaking Skyfathers (planetary level deities people!) out performing them on panel...


The inconsistencies are so bad that they are sickening at times...

Given what Tiamut is supposed to be, Set (the same Set that got 2 of its heads blown off by Thor and the Silver Surfer; albeit in a What If) should only register as a minor "blip" on the radar to a being so almighty, but there Tiamut is...reacting to Set as if Set really matters in the grand scheme of things (and relative to what Set "should" be compared to the Abstracts and Semi-Abstracts, Set should indeed qualify as nothing significant)...


Oh well, let Marvels inconsistencies and tendencies to job out the Cosmics and Abstracts reign...

Originally posted by zopzop
Kang was battling the FF outside Tiamut's prison while attempting to free him. Tiamut didn't even acknowledge the fight as mentioned by the narrator.

Yeah I shudder and moan about the approach of things that are beneath me all the time! Everyone does!


I ask again, it's relevant to the described incident, why?

If I'm locked away and see a guy approaching the house I'm trapped in with the intent of setting it on fire, I have a gun on me and I could if I wasn't locked easily kill him, but in the current stage I can't do anything, I would tremble with fear. Tiamut would survive the house burning down, the thing is (given the retcon) that Tiamut would like to do the burning himself.


Originally posted by zopzop
The point was, at that time Tiamut was considered "evil". The Eternals retconn didn't come into play until over a decade later.


It's irrelevant given the way in which retcon's work, and secondly it's still only known as a "crime against life" nothing beyond that is mentioned, for all we know he could have disrupted the Celestial experiment, creating the mutants, thus his Shudder and Moaning would be a result of him losing the very beings he made. It's all hypothetical because we don't know what his crime at the time against life was.



Originally posted by zopzop
You got proof, not talk, of a Celestial taking out a Cube level being? Because despite what Kubik said, the Celestials best feats don't compare, at all, to Cube Beings. I give you Kubik vs Beyonder and MM vs Beyoner/Kosmos and compare that to the Celestials vs Thanos with the IG. I rest my case.

Let me see, Kubik was, along with Kosmos, trapped inside a sphere while the Celestial was about to judge them, and Kubik was afraid of the judgement by this single Celestial because no matter what the Celestial decided Kubik would be incapable of preventing the Celestial from killing them if that was the judgement. So we have a actual incident of two parties infront of each other, where a direct power comparison is established. And the day collateral damage = powerlevel get back to me. Dazzle have shattered a mountainside, does that mean that she will suddenly backhand Doctor Doom? In your optics it must. The Silver Surfer has destroyed a planet, Grandmaster from the elders of the universe have no such feat, in your optics Surfer wins. Galactus in his battle with Tyrant destroyed Galaxies, less was destroyed against the Infinity Gauntlet, that must in your optics mean that Galactus & Tyrant is above the Infinity Gauntlet + abstracts. Etc.

bump

Logically, even a hungry Galactus ought to be above a planet's pantheons, else his job becomes a real *****.

Guess Marvel hasn't figured that out, especially in his most recent showings.

logically how? planet pantheons or not they are worshiped as being near omnipotent not just planetary level power, just look at mythology

not only that but it has long been established that earth gods rival and excees some cosmic beings

What I'm saying is that Galactus devours planets. He logically ought to be able to defeat any defenses of said planets, including pantheons.

I didn't say he could as he's written now.

Originally posted by Cogito
Logically, even a hungry Galactus ought to be above a planet's pantheons, else his job becomes a real *****.

Guess Marvel hasn't figured that out, especially in his most recent showings.

That's the thing though. "Classic" Odin had better showings (fights and feats) than "Classic" Galactus.

"Recent' showings like the Thanos Imperative, Annihilation, etc.. had him FINALLY stepping up to the plate fight/feat wise : blowing up an entire GALAXY while near death and starving, fighting off the Galactus Engine from the Cancerverse one on one while the other Cosmics fled (this included Celestials), etc..

I honestly thought when he faced off vs Odin, Odin would take the fight deadly serious and whip out the Destroyer and all his amps (Scepter of Power, etc...) and face Galactus down in an EPIC brawl. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO. He is so unimpressed by Galactus, he took the fight to him sans amps. Pathetic.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's the thing though. "Classic" Odin had better showings (fights and feats) than "Classic" Galactus.

"Recent' showings like the Thanos Imperative, Annihilation, etc.. had him FINALLY stepping up to the plate fight/feat wise : blowing up an entire GALAXY while near death and starving, fighting off the Galactus Engine from the Cancerverse one on one while the other Cosmics fled (this included Celestials), etc..

I honestly thought when he faced off vs Odin, Odin would take the fight deadly serious and whip out the Destroyer and all his amps (Scepter of Power, etc...) and face Galactus down in an EPIC brawl. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO. He is so unimpressed by Galactus, he took the fight to him sans amps. Pathetic.

Again, didn't say that Galactus could take all the pantheons.

But yeah, Galactus had a lot of promise coming out of Thanos Imperative. Unfortunate that Fraction is ruining him

These writers need to get their shit together and start writing with some consistency.

Bump, having now seen Odin face off against Galactus.

Originally posted by basilisk
So what would happen in these scenarios? Average Galactus arrives on earth to feed. Earth's heroes attack but are defeated. Who would come out victorious - Galactus or Gods:

1) Earth's godly pantheons enact the giant Destroyer gambit against Galactus, just as they did against the Celestial Host.

2) Forget the giant Destroyer - all earth's pantheons, led by Zeus, Odin, and Vishnu launch an all-out direct attack on Galactus as he constructs his feeding machine. So this is several dozens of Skyfathers and their pantheons. They can use whatever godly weapons their realms have to offer. Odin transfers the entire population of earth safely to another dimension to protect them during the battle (as he did once long ago).

3) Earth's elder gods are pissed off. Gaea, Set, Chthon, Demiurge, Oshtur, and all the other Elder Gods and all earthly demons launch an all-out attack on Galactus.

4) Same as 2, but they call on their cousins the Shi'ar, Kree, Zenn-La, and Skrull pantheons to assist in the attack.

Man, you must really hate Galactus.

1) The Odin Destroyer breaks him.
2) Lol.
3) Lol.
3) Lol.

This thread exemplifies the massive amount of fail these writers have when writing cosmic characters...

Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, and the rest, are Earth level Gods; on a universal scale, the Earth and everything on it combined are absolutely nothing in comparison (the writer of the Celestials got it right in that sense; Earth level Gods should have no prayer against Cosmic Beings)...

With Galactus being a major universal power (the middle force between Death and Eternity), Earth and everything on it should be nothing more than a snack (and nothing more) to him...

Hell, simply for Galactus to do his cosmic job properly, he should be capable of defeating an entire world (includes all of its deities) at once; surely Earth isnt the only planet in all of creation to stand up and defend their homeworld...

But, rational logic (unfortunatelly) has no place in comic book and Marvel loads Marvel Earth up with PIS and wanks the living hell out of it to make it relevant (see Reed and Franklin Richards among countless other Earthlings) while simutaneously jobbing out cosmic characters like Galactus and Eternity...

In conclusion:

Comic Book logic on...Galactus gets spite stomped in every senario.

Comic Book logic off...Earth gets spite stomped in every senario.


Side note: The "Ultimate" comics got Galactus right. In the Ultimate Universe, Galactus is simply an entity that hates all organic life (and thus seeks it out and kills it off where ever it can find it); it consumes the energy from a planets core as it must replenish its power to continue the cycle...

If the writers at Marvel had any intellect and any desire to inject 'some' logic into a comic, 616 Galactus should follow a similar pattern as he does in the Ultimate comics; Galactus should also ONLY be a planetary level threat and NOT the universes middle force between Death and Eternity (and even then it should be capable of defeating a world and its Gods; it fails to be a planetary threat if its unable to do so)...

Furthermore, there should be multiple Galacti roaming the 616 universe performing this cosmic job; with life being as plentiful as it is in the Marvel Universe, there is no way in hell Galactus could properly do his job eatting only 1 planet every month or so...

facepalm

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm

And you know every word of it is logical and correct...

I dont see galactus winning any of these matches,