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Baron Zemo w/moonstones
Photon (Genis-Vell)

vs.

Flash (Wally West)
Zoom (Hunter Zolomon)

CIS: OFF
PIS: OFF
Bloodlust: On


GO!

Until I see an attosecond reaction speed from the guy that sees evertyhing that ever was, is or will be at all times, zoom soloes by blitzing harder than 1 billion kryptonians before anyone can react. flash travels back in time while he's at it because that's cool.

Originally posted by 753
Until I see an attosecond reaction speed from the guy that sees evertyhing that ever was, is or will be at all times, zoom soloes

Originally posted by 753
Until I see an attosecond reaction speed from the guy that sees evertyhing that ever was, is or will be at all times, zoom soloes by blitzing harder than 1 billion kryptonians before anyone can react. flash travels back in time while he's at it because that's cool.

Pfft attosecond. If its anything like the picosecond claim, than its another internet hype that’s derailed into bullshit. coffee1


Nth level cosmic awareness, heightens his senses enough to cope with his own speed. After all, he did travel 30 light years to reach the Kree Planet in a matter of two panels.


Eat it Flash. EAT IT!

Nope. It's not. Cosmic awareness isn't comparable. Not when you can't do a damn thing to stop your opponent. And 30 light years is worthless at this level of speed.

I don't believe you understand the speed that a non-jobbing Flash or Zoom fight at.

Prime's done faster than that, so has Superman.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Prime's done faster than that, so has Superman.

I am sure they have.

wheres c-master with that math on flash saving those people in the city. what was that? over a trillion lightyears per second or something?

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
wheres c-master with that math on flash saving those people in the city. what was that? over a trillion lightyears per second or something? Except its clearly written on panel that the feat took place at the speed of light. Not the trillion calculation members like to wank.

Panel schmanel. That writer is an idiot. The feat cannot be done at the speed of light. It's clearly obvious it was faster than light.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Panel schmanel. That writer is an idiot. The feat cannot be done at the speed of light. It's clearly obvious it was faster than light. Absolutely!

Probably team flash.

Originally posted by "Id"
Pfft attosecond. If its anything like the picosecond claim, than its another internet hype that’s derailed into bullshit. coffee1


Nth level cosmic awareness, heightens his senses enough to cope with his own speed. After all, he did travel 30 light years to reach the Kree Planet in a matter of two panels.


Eat it Flash. EAT IT! you do realize that was sarcasm. words like attosecond are tossed about with no reflection by writers on their meanings because they sound impressive. genis CA is more than enough to counter them

Originally posted by "Id"
Except its clearly written on panel that the feat took place at the speed of light. Not the trillion calculation members like to wank. unless you can prove that the speed of light is faster in the DCU, the writers word means shit here. what actually happened > what the writer said happened

Originally posted by "Id"
Except its clearly written on panel that the feat took place at the speed of light. Not the trillion calculation members like to wank. It was 2.5 quintillion miles per second or 13 trillion times lightspeed. It had some people disagree, however most and I think that what happens go over what is in text. Especially since if he were going under light he wouldn't have saved anybody.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
unless you can prove that the speed of light is faster in the DCU, the writers word means shit here. what actually happened > what the writer said happened which is crap because writer's intentions are all that determine a story. the author did not do the necesary math and if he had, he would have given flash more time or redimensioned the feat as his intentions were to portray subluminal movement. he simply tossed the feat in the story with the same uncomprehension that terms like attosecond are thrown arround to sound impressive. you can very well argue that flash is fast enough to save all those people in a split second, since he did so, but claiming he was moving at 13 trillion times the speed of light is a joke.

No it isn't because he did it. People on this forum argue against intentions of a character all of the time because of feats. But when feats are brought to the table it suddenly doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No it isn't because he did it. People on this forum argue against intentions of a character all of the time because of feats. But when feats are brought to the table it suddenly doesn't matter. his only feat there is rescuing 250 thousand was it? people from an island before the nuclear explosion hit it while moving below lightspeed. intentions of the character? I'm talking about intentions of the writer unambiguously stated in the omniscient narrator boxes. there may be people here who argue against them, but I'm not one of them. that feat is unusable.

Originally posted by 753
you do realize that was sarcasm. words like attosecond are tossed about with no reflection by writers on their meanings because they sound impressive. genis CA is more than enough to counter them

Yeah.

I responded with sarcasm. We need to use more sarcasm symbols. mhmm

The fact that the Nuke had pretty much the ground and they were saved at that moment speaks volumes, he couldn't do it otherwise.

Not to mention it isn't his best feat anyways.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The fact that the Nuke had pretty much the ground and they were saved at that moment speaks volumes, he couldn't do it otherwise.

Not to mention it isn't his best feat anyways. Whats his best feat? because I am not buying quantified numbers by a fan.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
It was 2.5 quintillion miles per second or 13 trillion times lightspeed. It had some people disagree, however most and I think that what happens go over what is in text. Especially since if he were going under light he wouldn't have saved anybody. What? No.

The feat is summed up by the writer, and his word is final on how fast Flash was going there, regardless of what sense it makes. If it states Flash was going lightspeed, then Flash was going lightspeed, or just underneath it. He still managed to save everybody, and that's that.

It doesn't make sense for fans to attempt to overrule the writer's clear stance on how fast Flash was going.

This adds a serious precedent, since fans will take up a time frame, and velocity when its convenient.

Originally posted by 753
you do realize that was sarcasm. words like attosecond are tossed about with no reflection by writers on their meanings because they sound impressive. genis CA is more than enough to counter them Odd.

Here you essentially said that we shouldn't take it as fact when writers tell us that 'character x' was moving by the attosecond -- yet you seemed to use the writer's word as gospel later on in this thread, regarding Flash saving all those people whilst moving sub-c.

It has to work both ways.

Originally posted by Galan007
Odd.

Here you essentially said that we shouldn't take it as fact when writers tell us that 'character x' was moving by the attosecond -- yet you seemed to use the writer's word as gospel later on in this thread, regarding Flash saving all those people whilst moving sub-c.

It has to work both ways. oh I take it as a fact that he was moving at an attosecond timeframe. I simply know the writer didn't think that through. but even taking that at facevalue, I'm underhelmed by it on the face of Gennis CA and power. I dont think it's enough to claim he can net the win.

If flash consistently used his attosecond reactions to deliver enough power to beat skyfathers and consistently avoided their power output, I'd rank him as one, although I would find it dumb that speed alone could take him there, but the potential we can infer from his numbers is never really used like that, is it? so why should I assume he is a skyfather level fighter? every single showing of his pointing to the contrary is PIS or CIS? I dont think so. Genis consistently operated at a an absurd power level, flash not so much.

Originally posted by 753
If flash consistently used his attosecond reactions to deliver enough power to beat skyfathers and consistently avoided their power output, I'd rank him as one, although I would find it dumb that speed alone could take him there, but the potential we can infer from his numbers is never really used like that, is it? so why should I assume he is a skyfather level fighter? every single showing of his pointing to the contrary is PIS or CIS? I dont think so. Genis consistently operated at a an absurd power level, flash not so much. Good this Zemo/Genis aren't Skyfathers then, eh?

Originally posted by Galan007
Good this Zemo/Genis aren't Skyfathers then, eh? genis is pretty solidly trans at least IMO and claiming he is a low skyfather wouldnt be farfetched

I disagree. Feat for feat, Photon really isn't above someone like Surfer.

...And if Genis is trans+ level, Id should be ashamed of himself for using him in a Herald-level tourney. uhuh

I think trans is fair. SS's highest feats might match him, but his average doesnt.

^ Same coin, I don't believe Photon's average feats were trans-level, either. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Id should be ashamed of himself for using him in a Herald-level tourney. uhuh

I saw an opportunity, and I took it. I am still baffled that we lost. We where stacked.

Yeah you were. Tbh, a team really can't get much better than the one you guys had.



















...Except for our team.

Originally posted by "Id"
I am still baffled that we lost. You should be thankful you crawled your way out of the match with me/Raoul, which I'm pretty sure even you thought had lost.

Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree. Feat for feat, Photon really isn't above someone like Surfer.
Not sure where you're getting that.

From their feats. Obviously. uhuh

But Genis generally has better feats and most of them are him not even trying.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
unless you can prove that the speed of light is faster in the DCU, the writers word means shit here. what actually happened > what the writer said happened
Except that the figures saying the time he did it in, how many people there were, etc, are also the words of the writer. So why do they have to be right and the speed has to be wrong?

Originally posted by Galan007
I disagree. Feat for feat, Photon really isn't above someone like Surfer.

...And if Genis is trans+ level, Id should be ashamed of himself for using him in a Herald-level tourney. uhuh
Ugh. I still can't believe that... what kills me more than losing was that I feel like we should have been able to win with that team. Must have been doing something wrong.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Except that the figures saying the time he did it in, how many people there were, etc, are also the words of the writer. So why do they have to be right and the speed has to be wrong? it's safe to deduce the writer blundered. his intentions are clearly expressed through the narration box. at best the feat is simply unuseble. flash has other monster feats to fall back on.

Originally posted by 753
it's safe to deduce the writer blundered. his intentions are clearly expressed through the narration box. at best the feat is simply unuseble. flash has other monster feats to fall back on.
That's what I think as well. That feat is meaningless. We have four figures (speed, distance, people, time), any one of those four could be wrong... settling it on speed is faulty.

this:

Originally posted by Existere
What? No.

The feat is summed up by the writer, and his word is final on how fast Flash was going there, regardless of what sense it makes. If it states Flash was going lightspeed, then Flash was going lightspeed, or just underneath it. He still managed to save everybody, and that's that.

It doesn't make sense for fans to attempt to overrule the writer's clear stance on how fast Flash was going.

and a little of this:

Originally posted by Galan007
Odd.

Here you essentially said that we shouldn't take it as fact when writers tell us that 'character x' was moving by the attosecond -- yet you seemed to use the writer's word as gospel later on in this thread, regarding Flash saving all those people whilst moving sub-c.

It has to work both ways.

and a whole LOTTA this:

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah you were. Tbh, a team really can't get much better than the one you guys had.




















...Except for our team.

Originally posted by Existere
What? No.

The feat is summed up by the writer, and his word is final on how fast Flash was going there, regardless of what sense it makes. If it states Flash was going lightspeed, then Flash was going lightspeed, or just underneath it. He still managed to save everybody, and that's that.

It doesn't make sense for fans to attempt to overrule the writer's clear stance on how fast Flash was going. What? Yes. If Superman is holding Earth and they call it a mountain, what would it be? It would be the Earth.

And the feat was summed up, using the numbers he gave. It wasn't like the number came from nowhere.Originally posted by King Kandy
Except that the figures saying the time he did it in, how many people there were, etc, are also the words of the writer. So why do they have to be right and the speed has to be wrong? Well the nuke was on the ground and he did save the city.

I think it's best to say it is a "crazy high feat" than to say that it didn't happen. Mark it as invalid or something, but saying it didn't happen otherwise... meh.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What? Yes. If Superman is holding Earth and they call it a mountain, what would it be? It would be the Earth.
Right. Flash did save the city and nobody called the city as anything less than what it was, or more than what it was, or attributed anything but nuke-like qualities to the nuke.

We can't determine the nature of Flash's feat due to contradictory numbers, which renders it useless in a debate. That's it, full stop.

Originally posted by "Id"
Pfft attosecond. If its anything like the picosecond claim, than its another internet hype that’s derailed into bullshit. coffee1


Nth level cosmic awareness, heightens his senses enough to cope with his own speed. After all, he did travel 30 light years to reach the Kree Planet in a matter of two panels.


Eat it Flash. EAT IT! just because you can perceive something doesn't mean you can do crap about it. I can see Manny Pacquiao throwing a punch but I'd be doomed if you told me to block it.

Originally posted by Existere
Right. Flash did save the city and nobody called the city as anything less than what it was, or more than what it was, or attributed anything but nuke-like qualities to the nuke.

We can't determine the nature of Flash's feat due to contradictory numbers, which renders it useless in a debate. That's it, full stop. We can work with that. I'd be more prone to using the calc and pics, but it is a "silly" feat.

It isn't his best anyways.

So wait even though its impossible for him to save everyone at lightspeed and the narration said he wasn't time traveling or anything like that. We have to assume something that is quite implausible is the way to go because of author intent which can be wrong anyway.

The feat isn't unquantifiable, the people that calc the feat end up with ridiculously high numbers even while trying to use the low end of a calc.

Originally posted by SasuOna
So wait even though its impossible for him to save everyone at lightspeed and the narration said he wasn't time traveling or anything like that. We have to assume something that is quite implausible is the way to go because of author intent which can be wrong anyway.

The feat isn't unquantifiable, the people that calc the feat end up with ridiculously high numbers even while trying to use the low end of a calc. It's not impossible, time slows down as you approach lightspeed.

Originally posted by SasuOna
So wait even though its impossible for him to save everyone at lightspeed and the narration said he wasn't time traveling or anything like that. We have to assume something that is quite implausible is the way to go because of author intent which can be wrong anyway.

The feat isn't unquantifiable, the people that calc the feat end up with ridiculously high numbers even while trying to use the low end of a calc. True, it had no intention of time slowing, and 13 trillion times is a huge time slowdown. I stick by what I said, or if one doesn't accept that, say it is a "crazy" feat.

Originally posted by Uriel005
just because you can perceive something doesn't mean you can do crap about it. I can see Manny Pacquiao throwing a punch but I'd be doomed if you told me to block it. The Nega Bands will protect Genis at the slightest danger, so as long as his Cosmic Awareness is properly working. Considering its grants Omniscience, Omniversal Telepathy, and the ability to view past, present, and future at all points of time. Good luck thinking, the Flash speed will find a blind spot in his cosmic awareness.

If the Flash wants to harm Genis, he needs to turn off his cosmic awareness. A telepath potent enough could work through his mental shields, or pheromones ala Purple Man have been successful.

Is the Flash capable of doing this? If not all thats left if brute force to breach his shield. A minimum of King Thor level of power.

Purple Man must have been against noob Genis.

Originally posted by Mindset
Purple Man must have been against noob Genis.

It was against Photon incarnation. He had assistance from Zemo with moonstones, a potent telepath (cant remember his name).

Ah, I see.

Originally posted by SasuOna
We have to assume something that is quite implausible is the way to go because of author intent
Yes.

Originally posted by SasuOna
which can be wrong anyway. No.

the writer is god in comics, so if he said it was lightspeed, it was. at best one can dismiss the feat for its inherent contradictions, but to claim that we should do the math and disregard the on panel narration that pretty much establishes what actually happens as false is absurd

Originally posted by 753
the writer is god in comics, so if he said it was lightspeed, it was. at best one can dismiss the feat for its inherent contradictions, but to claim that we should do the math and disregard the on panel narration that pretty much stablishe what actually happens as false is absurd Right.

Reinterpreting feats to be more powerful than the writer's clear intention changes the nature of the feat and therefore establishes a different character to debate with than the one in comics.

We're a comics debating forum, and comic Flash accomplished that speed at light speed (or just below it). Therefore that is what happened, and we move forward.

Originally posted by 753
the writer is god in comics, so if he said it was lightspeed, it was. at best one can dismiss the feat for its inherent contradictions, but to claim that we should do the math and disregard the on panel narration that pretty much establishes what actually happens as false is absurd The writer said (and protrayed) a city being saved in that small amount of time. Actions that the comic has shown always goes over words. Earth/mountain example.

That or dismiss the feat.Originally posted by "Id"
No but..but.. we take values…and statements, and twist them to our convenience. All conveniently quantified.

You Monster! And actions...

Twisting events to ones favor would be what goes on when people discard feats they like for ones they don't, which happens... all the time. Given everybody has a different opinion on a character.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The writer said (and protrayed) a city being saved in that small amount of time. Actions that the comic has shown always goes over words. Earth/mountain example.

That or dismiss the feat. And actions...

Twisting events to ones favor would be what goes on when people discard feats they like for ones they don't, which happens... all the time. Given everybody has a different opinion on a character. nobody is denying he saved that city in that small amount of time. he did it. under light speed.

Originally posted by 753
nobody is denying he saved that city in that small amount of time. he did it. under light speed. Well light speed is just different in the DC then.

2.5 quintillion miles per second.

Wrong.

Well we can't have it all ways now can we?

I think we can, for all purposes relating to the DCU. For all purposes debate, the feat is inadmissible.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well light speed is just different in the DC then.

2.5 quintillion miles per second. hum... can't you just accept the inherently illogical and impossible nature of the feat like we just accept how their powers work to begin with?

The nature of the feat isn't the issue, the narration is.

Although I did the calc at the time to point out how crazy the feat was, and it reached legendary status. Horrah for that.

Originally posted by Existere
I think we can, for all purposes relating to the DCU. For all purposes debate, the feat is inadmissible. So he went "under the speed of light" at 2.5 quintillion miles per second. That's all ways.

But yea, it is a "crazy feat". Either way, he has better.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The nature of the feat isn't the issue, the narration is.

Although I did the calc at the time to point out how crazy the feat was, and it reached legendary status. Horrah for that.

So he went "under the speed of light" at 2.5 quintillion miles per second. That's all ways.

But yea, it is a "crazy feat". Either way, he has better. problem does not lie in the narration, but in its incogruence with real world physics, which really isn't that relevant

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
The nature of the feat isn't the issue, the narration is.

Although I did the calc at the time to point out how crazy the feat was, and it reached legendary status. Horrah for that.

So he went "under the speed of light" at 2.5 quintillion miles per second. That's all ways.

But yea, it is a "crazy feat". Either way, he has better.

I remember Galan pointing this out. The naration stated otherwise, but he was going beyond lightspeed. Anyway, Flash has had equal or better feats than that.

Yea, I stick by my statement, but it isn't a necessary feat.Originally posted by 753
problem does not lie in the narration, but in its incogruence with real world physics, which really isn't that relevant Flash walks all over physics all of the time.

Originally posted by Existere
Right.

Reinterpreting feats to be more powerful than the writer's clear intention changes the nature of the feat and therefore establishes a different character to debate with than the one in comics.

We're a comics debating forum, and comic Flash accomplished that speed at light speed (or just below it). Therefore that is what happened, and we move forward. except that its impossible that he did it under light speed, so we either have to assume that the speed of light is different in the DCU or that he was traveling at a much higher speed

Originally posted by "Id"
It was against Photon incarnation. He had assistance from Zemo with moonstones, a potent telepath (cant remember his name). Overmind?

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
except that its impossible that he did it under light speed, so we either have to assume that the speed of light is different in the DCU or that he was traveling at a much higher speed Nah. The feat simply needs to be thrown out.

The writer did tell us how fast Wally was supposed to have been going (sub-c), but he also gave us the number of people he saved + the distance he traveled each way + the total time it took him to accomplish that feat -- which equates to him moving WELL in excess of c.

Conflicting narration = a bogus feat, imo. Plus, it's not like that is the only speed feat Flash has. /shrug

i dont see why it has to be thrown out if the only inconsistency is the speed

^ Because an argument can still be made that it was the writer's intent for Wally to be moving below the speed of light (hence him stating such 2 different times during that scene.)

I think it is safer to throw it out too. He has better feats, and really, I did that to show the insanity of the feat itself. It is good that it got attention. I'd still go for the numbers and the picture myself over that one line. But others might not. Some will, some won't.

Although if he can move at the attosecond, it doesn't seem out of the scope of his abilities, no matter how crazy the feat seems.