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WWH
Silver Surfer
Dr. Strange
Namor


Vs


Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Thunderstrike
Thor Girl
Dargo Ktor


Who wins?

Thor Corps.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor Corps. I respectfully disagree.

Going with Defenders

Thor corp for the stomp.

Thor corps. Strange isn't the threat he used to be. And that p others can and have been handled in the past.

Originally posted by Damborgson
Thor corps. Strange isn't the threat he used to be. And that p others can and have been handled in the past.

True. But this is the defenders team so that would include classic Strange. With this version they win.

well if the defenders get classic strange then thor corps should get taren (spelling?) in her true form and actual level of power

namor is useless. strange, ss and hulk vs all the corps? hulk is bfr'd almost immediately. strange and ss vs them all? corps wins everytime imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
namor is useless. strange, ss and hulk vs all the corps? hulk is bfr'd almost immediately. strange and ss vs them all? corps wins everytime imo.

Not unless Strange conjures up a spell which steals all hammers from their weilder (he's stolen Thor's before).

In all of the confrontations between Thor and Hulk, Hulk has never been bfr'ed immediately to my knowledge. Safe to say it won't happen in this case.

Scans and/or issue numbers?

It happened in Strange Tales #182. Loki tried to trick Steven into thinking Thor was evil. Heres the cover:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6126/kgrhqmokjke1udqbwymbnup.th.jpg

Here's the feat:

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9308/1097508strangethor9oasu.th.jpg

Impressive, but that appears to be more of a prep feat than anything. I don't think Strange will have enough time to pull such a spell off in the midst of combat.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Impressive, but that appears to be more of a prep feat than anything. I don't think Strange will have enough time to pull such a spell off in the midst of combat.

Yeah it might take a few seconds to execute. A shield already up would allow him to do it tho. Of course this is an extreme circumstance (example as in a last resort effort) and would most likely happen if the Thor Corps start to get the upper hand.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor Corps. Hulk can solo any of them

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Hulk can solo any of them

?

Are you saying he can beat any single member of the Thor Corps for the majority by himself?

Or are you saying that he solos the entire Thor Corps?

One of those statements is far crazier and absurd than the other.

Defenders ftw. Surfer combines with Hulk (like with Skaar) and ends every one of them in minutes.

Hulk takes the major players in the Thor Corps with backing of Silver Surfer and Strange, who can prevent BFR.

Well, if we're discussing team strategy and tactics:

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/GodBlastSavesMultiverse.jpg

/thread

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, if we're discussing team strategy and tactics:

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/GodBlastSavesMultiverse.jpg

/thread

There are abstracts that don't have feats on that level of power. Thor Corps everytime, even with Classic Strange, Current Hulk, whatever.

That is good teamwork Jake and zopzop but guess what tho? The Defenders work good as a team too. Surfer and Hulk is not going to just stand there and let the Thor team get the up on em. shifty

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8681/avendef5ec.jpg

They're just lucky Thor wasn't around.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Not unless Strange conjures up a spell which steals all hammers from their weilder (he's stolen Thor's before).

and a moment later you say thor bfr'ing hulk is unlikely?

i see strange doing that.... pretty much never.



except thor JUST brf'd him into orbit last month...

if we go into full battle strategies, the match can go a million ways. straight up, unprepped, the thors take this for a heavy majority imo.

did I say minutes? I meant seconds. Surfer + Hulk = instant win.

Hulk himself would vapourise the Thors without any trouble whatsoever (how many "Hercs" was fin fang foom at, when he got wiped out of existence in the Dark Dimension?), given a few moments.

With the Surfer's Power Cosmic, he won't need to do any such thing, just punch/rip their heads off with the board and a ThunderClap to liquefy whatever remains.

Hulk could possibly solo if we are using current Hulk.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk could possibly solo if we are using current Hulk.

baka

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, if we're discussing team strategy and tactics:

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss225/OdinBorson/GodBlastSavesMultiverse.jpg

/thread Hmph. So I guess Beta Ray Bill has performed a Godblast.

Originally posted by leonidas
and a moment later you say thor bfr'ing hulk is unlikely?

i see strange doing that.... pretty much never.



except thor JUST brf'd him into orbit last month...

if we go into full battle strategies, the match can go a million ways. straight up, unprepped, the thors take this for a heavy majority imo.

Really, it doesn't even matter if they bfr Hulk. The Eye would allow Steven to bring him back from "wherever". They might as well duke it out with him.

I agree it could go either way but to the Defenders for a majority imo. Strange is the key. There's no answer for him on team Thor. Surfer and Hulk can hold their own. Namor, not that much of a factor can still pitch in.

you're assuming strange has a lot of time on his hands. he also tires very quickly. i find strange enormously overrated (skurge and enchantress have had him dead, loki has proven to be a peer on a couple occasions). if we stick to just high showings, strange could be a threat. collectively however they would be too much for him without prep or pis. if they bfr'd hulk, strange would be far too busy imo to do anything about it.

i do agree that they could take a couple, but i can't see the defenders taking more than 2/10.

Originally posted by janus77
did I say minutes? I meant seconds. Surfer + Hulk = instant win.

Hulk himself would vapourise the Thors without any trouble whatsoever (how many "Hercs" was fin fang foom at, when he got wiped out of existence in the Dark Dimension?), given a few moments.

With the Surfer's Power Cosmic, he won't need to do any such thing, just punch/rip their heads off with the board and a ThunderClap to liquefy whatever remains. http://mob300.photobucket.com/albums/nn3/_ruin_/DUDE-WTF-IS-WRONG-WITH-YOU.jpg

Thor solos

Originally posted by leonidas
you're assuming strange has a lot of time on his hands. he also tires very quickly. i find strange enormously overrated (skurge and enchantress have had him dead, loki has proven to be a peer on a couple occasions). if we stick to just high showings, strange could be a threat. collectively however they would be too much for him without prep or pis. if they bfr'd hulk, strange would be far too busy imo to do anything about it.

i do agree that they could take a couple, but i can't see the defenders taking more than 2/10.

When has Strange ever tired quickly? Steven's not overated. He has the feats to prove it. Yeah we can sit here and single out PIS/low end feats/borderline embarassments if you will, but as they say "the good outweigh the bad".

No one on this team is going to be able to cope with a being capable of stalemating infinity gems/punking abstracts etc.

Defenders vs. a team with everyone having basically the same powerset/abilities. Shouldn't be hard to figure out.

Originally posted by Sundipped
When has Strange ever tired quickly? Steven's not overated. He has the feats to prove it. Yeah we can sit here and single out PIS/low end feats/borderline embarassments if you will, but as they say "the good outweigh the bad".

No one on this team is going to be able to cope with a being capable of stalemating infinity gems/punking abstracts etc.

Defenders vs. a team with everyone having basically the same powerset/abilities. Shouldn't be hard to figure out.

strange became exhausted shielding from hulk. he was exhausted after being beat on by amora and skurge. high level spells OFTEN tired him out. people pounding on his shields can and has tired him out.

steve IS overrated. the majority of his 'big' feats are done with prep or pis--ie--the oft-cited stalemating of the 'gems'. he had gathered all the most powerful items he could find and briefly stalemated each gem individually. given how much prep he had and what he gathered, not much of a feat tbh. he briefly went 1on1 with inbetweener but did nothing to him. not really sure what other abstracts you are talking about that he 'punked' with no prep or pis but i'd be interested in hearing about them. a fully prepped strange AND doom were nearly killed by mephisto and just made it out of hell alive.

a lot of the respect thread is missing context and is misleading.

^don't worry though long pig--i still luv ua like no other.

Originally posted by leonidas
strange became exhausted shielding from hulk. he was exhausted after being beat on by amora and skurge. high level spells OFTEN tired him out. people pounding on his shields can and has tired him out.

steve IS overrated. the majority of his 'big' feats are done with prep or pis--ie--the oft-cited stalemating of the 'gems'. he had gathered all the most powerful items he could find and briefly stalemated each gem individually. given how much prep he had and what he gathered, not much of a feat tbh. he briefly went 1on1 with inbetweener but did nothing to him. not really sure what other abstracts you are talking about that he 'punked' with no prep or pis but i'd be interested in hearing about them. a fully prepped strange AND doom were nearly killed by mephisto and just made it out of hell alive.

a lot of the respect thread is missing context and is misleading.

Hulk continously pounded on a shield aroud Steven's house, not even him and it withstood the assault just fine. High level spells may tire him out but they often get the job done. I guess we're not going to mention the shields put up against Death/Deathurge/Galactus/Dormammu. Only the ones you wanna point out?

Yeah he used prep but everything he used vs. the IG was his to use. It's part of his powerset. You're not impressed but it is what it is. He did do something to IB. He called on support from Lord Chaos and Master Order to back him. Another one of his abilities (evoking other entities). You want to bring up the Mephisto incident but Steven has also absorbed enough energy to defeat a demon of the highest order then had to go dimension hoping to let off the excess energy because it was enough to destroy galaxies. Every low showing (if that's what you wanna call it) can be countered by a high one. Every character has them so why bother picking feats.

Nothing is misleading about Strange. All you have to do is understand what he is and what he's capable of. And what he is capable of, is defeating this team with help from the other Defenders.

Originally posted by leonidas
strange became exhausted shielding from hulk. he was exhausted after being beat on by amora and skurge. high level spells OFTEN tired him out. people pounding on his shields can and has tired him out.

steve IS overrated. the majority of his 'big' feats are done with prep or pis--ie--the oft-cited stalemating of the 'gems'. he had gathered all the most powerful items he could find and briefly stalemated each gem individually. given how much prep he had and what he gathered, not much of a feat tbh. he briefly went 1on1 with inbetweener but did nothing to him. not really sure what other abstracts you are talking about that he 'punked' with no prep or pis but i'd be interested in hearing about them. a fully prepped strange AND doom were nearly killed by mephisto and just made it out of hell alive.

a lot of the respect thread is missing context and is misleading.



People don't want to hear about that because it shatters the preconceived notion of "classic" Strange. With context and without PIS and prep time, he's nowhere near the level people place him on.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Hulk continously pounded on a shield aroud Steven's house, not even him and it withstood the assault just fine. High level spells may tire him out but they often get the job done. I guess we're not going to mention the shields put up against Death/Deathurge/Galactus/Dormammu. Only the ones you wanna point out?

and you want to forget about all the times his shields have been shattered. it is EASILY within reason that an amped hammer toss would shatter his shields and ko him.



huh? no it's not. not for this thread, not for any forum battle where he has no prep.



not really given the forum speak about strange. thing is, i used to love strange--like i used to love thanos. i stil like both, but forum speak and overhype does NOT do them credit.



they let him use their power to defeat IB. they woudln't do that here. the usual entities he calls on are pretty common and he only calls on the big boys rarely and with pis/special circumstances.



scans?



you're the one who said he's punked abstracts 1on1. THAT kind of talk is simply false and misleading. he has won some battles due to prep or pis. a LOT of battles. i ask again--unprepped, no pis, which absratc has he punked? you kow he's been ko'd MULTIPLE times by a LOT of characters right? like any character he's got some high showings, some good ones. but no, he does not go punking abstracts, skyfathers or heralds with regularity. if you feel different, show some scans to prove it.



then it should be easy to prove your claims.



capable? with help? that's a far cry from absract killer strange. i agree with the last statement, ftr. i just don't see them doing it for the majority.

Originally posted by leonidas
and you want to forget about all the times his shields have been shattered. it is EASILY within reason that an amped hammer toss would shatter his shields and ko him.

Like I said earlier, we can sit here and cherrypick feats all day. Steve has more strong showings than bad 1's. Why wouldn't he put on a strong show vs. Thor? He does it more often than not. A simple hammer toss will fail. You ignore his shields best showings and say not only will the shield shatter but it would also ko him?? shock



He won't even need any of that in this case. I was just pointing out what he's capable of with all of his artifacts.



I like both but this is no hype. These are facts. Illustrated on panel.



I was responding to you saying Steve didn't do anything but he did. Just the simple fact that he can call on the big boys makes him a threat to this entire team.Would being able to stalemate energy projection from a LT backed IB for 2 pages (no prep) mean anything to you. It should.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6793/inbe26ta.th.jpg http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/962/inbe38cg.th.jpg



As you can see he was already amped + absorbed more energy from combat as stated on panel. So much that he's involuntarily emmiting energy in intense bursts.





No prep involved when he punked Death. Death was outraged with Steven after trading attacks.
"You/Galactus/even accursed Eternity are not worth the supreme effort it would take."

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6421/death73ur.th.jpg

No prep he raped Big G with tp.
Reed - "he is only moments from death"

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5973/1154140galactusbeatdown.th.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4226/1154139galactusbeatdown.th.jpg

Again with Galactus no prep.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1263/1572806442drstrangesorc.jpg



I never said Steve killed the abstracts.
You keep saying team Thor for the majority but how? And please don't say Thor hits Steven with Mjlnor.

Here's where it's stated he destroy galaxies if he returned to Earth after fighting Shuma. He's just pulsating with energy: Energy he stole from 1 of Shumas minions (no prep)/ the dimension + Shuma's own.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2194/gala0gm.jpg

Originally posted by Sundipped
Like I said earlier, we can sit here and cherrypick feats all day. Steve has more strong showings than bad 1's. Why wouldn't he put on a strong show vs. Thor? He does it more often than not. A simple hammer toss will fail. You ignore his shields best showings and say not only will the shield shatter but it would also ko him?? shock

not cherry-picking at all. showing what level he most commonly and without pis operates at. i gonna steal this from bran. i've taken liberties with his text, but i think he'll forgive me:


Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Speaking of shields, you must have forgot about Thanos' when you spouted off all these random powers. But I digress, Strange's shields...
Ya, THOR breaks them, why not? Strange's indestrucible shields. Not only does Strange usually only cast one shield at a time, but if that shield is being pounded on badly, he's been said to not be able to reinforce it. Not only that, but the guy's cardio is terrible. You think hiding behind a shield unable to do nothing but concentrate on his shield is going to do anything to a couple thors? Even if Thor couldn't break it, it would severely tax Strange. or what couldn't thor simply ABSORB it? mjolnir can and has absorbed a lot more. anyway, this isn't cherry-picking. there are a lot of examples here showing that thor--espically if he amped his hammer by absorbing a spell or amped it with lightning.

Dormammu amped Ghost Rider smashes through his sanctum (as you know, or should know, is heavily shielded) and his go to shield:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/ghostriderv103005.jpg

Umar empowered Clea smashes through his shield:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeam-Up077-13.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeam-Up077-14.jpg

Azrael smashes through his rarely used backed up shield (Shield of Seraphim + Wand of Watoomb):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster4015.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster4016.jpg

A minor mystic with the sword of Kamuu cuts through every shield Strange puts up to defend his Sanctum:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange031-05.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange031-06.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange031-07-1.jpg

Defenses breached, mist meet face:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3414.jpg

Here Strange admits that he can't back up his shield with continued pounding, and then it breaks:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3710.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3711.jpg

Although admittedly, that is contradicted by an earlier issue, although the concept is the same. He doesn't have much time to do anything (not that it would matter, because Thanos would shatter the shield of Seraphim in one shot):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrange029-14.jpg

Strange's shield blown up by two mystics:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster3814.jpg

Strange's shield destroyed by Absorbing Man inside Hulk's mind:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Defenders083-11.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Defenders083-12.jpg

Strange admitting that he doesn't have the best defense against science, and then his shield gets destroyed, and he gets knocked out (Thanos is kind of sciencey, isn't he?):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5307.jpg

Strange's cardio getting him taxed from one spell:
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5514.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5515.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/DrStrangeMaster5516.jpg

Uh dunno, his shield wouldn't serve him much purpose. Even if he backed it up, I have no doubt THOR or a couple thors could smash through it quickly (insert scans of him crushing surfer's shields, blasting and chasing off Galactus, etc....).

This is the guy who's been coldcocked a few times by normal out cold. A guy who's said that putting out a fire in a building would tax him too much to try. A guy who's been drugged, gassed, suffocated, and has been threatened by ****ing water more than once. This is the guy a GROUP of thors has no chance against? Really? call me skeptical.

*cough sonics*
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Defenders093-16.jpg

For this insanity, I feel the need to post this as well.
Werewold possessed Strange vs Spider-Man (I'd post pure werewolf, but this one actually casts spells):
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeamUp_080p18.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeamUp_080p19.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/MarvelTeamUp_080p21.jpg

Everything I've post was before his books and artifacts were destroyed (which seemingly got ignored anyway), so ya, this is as Classic as you can get. This is Classicest Classic Strange.
That should do it.



not really. the lt/ib is a good feat, but ib wasn't really doing much and wasn't out to kill strange at all. in an earlier meeting ib could have killed strange with just a 'fraction' of his power and strange only chased him off by calling on order and chaos. so which scene is more realistic? ib (STILL not really trying to harm strange) proves able to easily overpower strange with just his own power, or an lt amped ib not killing him instantly?



like whom?



thor can do the same thing.




a good feat, as i said earlier. but we don't really kow how powerful that avatar was. and he did no lasting damage at all, just shattered an m-body. hurling that magical energy at a thor with a mjolnor might not end that well though....



i'd be more impressed if g wasn't severely weakened. the avengers had nearly killed him already. thor has done just as bad to galactus.



well, again, why not? especially if there were MULTIPLE hammer throws. less than the hammer has taxed and broken his shields. or thor could absorb them like he could absorb strange's bolts or spells.

for all his 'uber feats' really he has breifly stalemated ib after having been shown to be far below him on another occasion, hurt a weak galactus, beat a death m-body temorarily. in contrast he has been shown to be nothing to mephisto, dormammu a couple times, satanish, cyttorak, the vishanti, he's been ko'd by hulk, namor, juggs, magneto, hell, nebula with a RAY GUN! and there are others i've not named. these aren't cherry-picked feats. its weird how people love to bring up a couple of his feats and say he is the awesomest!!!1! but if you look at his whole career those 'uber feats' are few and far between and often need context to be seen accurately. in general, strange is powerful but not as powerful as forum-speak would lead everyone to believe.

the corps still wins a solid majority imo.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Here's where it's stated he destroy galaxies if he returned to Earth after fighting Shuma. He's just pulsating with energy: Energy he stole from 1 of Shumas minions (no prep)/ the dimension + Shuma's own.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2194/gala0gm.jpg



cool feat, but i don't really think it will mean anything in this or most battles.

Originally posted by leonidas
not cherry-picking at all. showing what level he most commonly and without pis operates at. i gonna steal this from bran. i've taken liberties with his text, but i think he'll forgive me:

Given what he has done, how can all that not attributed to PIS. Meaning Strange was stupidly depowered for the sake of the plot. There's no plot in forum battles. I debate with PIS off. I gave you Steve at his finest as should be for this battle. No reason at all to even consider a low showing in this setting. Only high ones. Therefore picking feats means nothing.



LT backed him by not permitting Steve to call Master Order Lord Chaos + Steve commented that IB's strength was increased by his mere presence. Maybe IB was'nt trying but being able to stalemate him in any aspect is a feat in itself. IB commended him by saying Steven is formidable in the first time around. These are no fluke encounters.



You can't be serious? All this time you've been here at KMC, giving props out to lone pig, and taking time to cherrypick Strange's low showings, and you act like you don't know the entities he envoke's? I'll give you a hint. You mentioned their names later on at the bottom of your post.



Ok. Show me a scan where it's stated classic Thor contained enough power to destroy galaxies.



M-bodies are really the essence of the actual entity itself. Dormammu created the universe in his image utilizing a Eternity M-body. Do you realize how much power was in that blast? He called upon all three members of the Vishanti for that attack which momentarily put death down. Explain again how Thor would not be affected by this.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/7318/s3yo9.th.jpg



It was a tp attack. Show me evidence of Thor withstanding tp capable of besting a mind gem weilder.



There will be no multiple hammer throws. He'll be lucky to even have the hammer. Strange has shown the ability to take it.



See first response up top.

Thor absorbed the energies of the Null Bomb and has made shields capable of preventing 1/5 of the universe from being destroyed.

Also, does Strange have any other instances of taking Mjolnir away from Thor outside of his prep feat you showed earlier?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor absorbed the energies of the Null Bomb and has made shields capable of preventing 1/5 of the universe from being destroyed.

Also, does Strange have any other instances of taking Mjolnir away from Thor outside of his prep feat you showed earlier?

Not that I know of.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Not that I know of.

Then don't you think it's kinda...well, a stretch to argue that Strange is going to wrest control from Mjolnir from Thor (or anyone else) mid-fight if his only feat in which he did so involved prep time he's not getting here?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Then don't you think it's kinda...well, a stretch to argue that Strange is going to wrest control from Mjolnir from Thor (or anyone else) mid-fight if his only feat in which he did so involved prep time he's not getting here?

In a one on one battle I'd be less likely to acknowledge it but this is a team battle. Remember I posted a scan earlier showing teamwork and it involved Steve completing a spell.

Originally posted by Sundipped
In a one on one battle I'd be less likely to acknowledge it but this is a team battle. Remember I posted a scan earlier showing teamwork and it involved Steve completing a spell.

Yes, but teamwork is a two-way street.

I find Strange disarming any of the Thor Corps with any sort of ease is out of the question, to be honest.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yes, but teamwork is a two-way street.

I find Strange disarming any of the Thor Corps with any sort of ease is out of the question, to be honest.

I say he can get at least one of em if he tried the spell. But that's my opinion.

Originally posted by Sundipped
I say he can get at least one of em if he tried the spell. But that's my opinion.

jake already mentioned the celestial bomb so no need to bring it up. part of why i give defenders a couple wins is the tgp edge. i don't see it working all the time--strange doesn't use offensive tp all that often and if he does he can't do anything else and would be open to the others. but it COULD be an issue.

how you want to attribute all those scenes as pis i have no idea. it's EASIER to call his stalemating ib PIS given the multitudes of his other showings. strange RARELY takes down anyone big without pis or prep. it's not like he walks up to dormammu or satanish or mephisto or thanos and simply beats them with his own power. he's been matched and beaten by countless lesser beings in 1on1 situations. you can't just look at high feats, especially when most have extenuating circumstances surrounding them. fact is his shields can and have been broken many times, he can and as been ko'd by characters well below thor. his one-time feat of taking thor's hammer may account for one of the couple wins i give them, but there are 4 other hammers as well.

we'll never agree on strange because you want to view him in the light of ONLY his very highest feats. fact is, those feats are rare and are mitigated by his countless other, lesser feats.

Originally posted by leonidas
jake already mentioned the celestial bomb so no need to bring it up. part of why i give defenders a couple wins is the tgp edge. i don't see it working all the time--strange doesn't use offensive tp all that often and if he does he can't do anything else and would be open to the others. but it COULD be an issue.

how you want to attribute all those scenes as pis i have no idea. it's EASIER to call his stalemating ib PIS given the multitudes of his other showings. strange RARELY takes down anyone big without pis or prep. it's not like he walks up to dormammu or satanish or mephisto or thanos and simply beats them with his own power. he's been matched and beaten by countless lesser beings in 1on1 situations. you can't just look at high feats, especially when most have extenuating circumstances surrounding them. fact is his shields can and have been broken many times, he can and as been ko'd by characters well below thor. his one-time feat of taking thor's hammer may account for one of the couple wins i give them, but there are 4 other hammers as well.

we'll never agree on strange because you want to view him in the light of ONLY his very highest feats. fact is, those feats are rare and are mitigated by his countless other, lesser feats.

If we take into account all showings (low and high) for all characters then it's going to turn into a "it could go either way" outcome for either side. What good is a debate if everything comes out evenly? See, since Hulk's on this team I could say that this would happen to at least one of the hammers:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4794/1861416thorhammersuper4.th.jpg

Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4130/thor1351ea46.th.jpg

We all know what Surfer is capable of. A confrontation between the Thor corps and this Defenders team would be hazardous to team Asgard. Defenders win no less than 7/10.

Originally posted by Sundipped


Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4130/thor1351ea46.th.jpg

He required Thor to willingly bequeath the Odin Force over to enable Strange to repair it. It wasn't like Strange just hijacked the OF from Thor. Hell, he required the Skyfathers of multiple pantheons to give him an amulet to do that to King Thor.

Originally posted by Sundipped
If we take into account all showings (low and high) for all characters then it's going to turn into a "it could go either way" outcome for either side. What good is a debate if everything comes out evenly? See, since Hulk's on this team I could say that this would happen to at least one of the hammers:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4794/1861416thorhammersuper4.th.jpg

Strange has not only taken the hammer, but he repaired it as well by taking the actual Odinforce from Thor and bonding it to Mjolnir demonstrating mystical energy manipulation that would be detrimental if used against Thor.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4130/thor1351ea46.th.jpg

We all know what Surfer is capable of. A confrontation between the Thor corps and this Defenders team would be hazardous to team Asgard. Defenders win no less than 7/10.

So Hulk crushed Thor hammer? Now that's insane.

Originally posted by carver9
So Hulk crushed Thor hammer? Now that's insane.

C'mon, now, Carver. Think.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/facepalm.gif

facepalm

There was a specific reason why I didn't bother giving a rebuttal to that "Hulk breaking Mjolnir scan".

Originally posted by Sundipped
If we take into account all showings (low and high) for all characters then it's going to turn into a "it could go either way" outcome for either side. What good is a debate if everything comes out evenly? See, since Hulk's on this team I could say that this would happen to at least one of the hammers:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4794/1861416thorhammersuper4.th.jpg





jake addressed this already. and as i said, it IS possible strange might be able to whip up something weird to take a hammer or 2. that's why i give them a couple wins.

if we don't take into account the history and overall performance of a character and context, then all we're arguing is highest achieved powerset and that is NOT an accurate indicator in the least. if we do that, then i say the corps engage the defenders, then thor kills ss with a godblast, absorbed the souls of hulk and namor or uses his few transmutation feats to eliminate them instantly. or maybe he invokes warrior madness and wrecks them all.

you want to use the highest feats for strange, use his once in a history feats, the outlier feats and ignore his clearly and OFT displayed weaknesses and vulnerabilities--i haven't used ANY of thor's highest feats to explain away a win. when someone talks of strange though, they ALWAYS cite his couple TOP feats as though that is how he is consistently portrayed when the weight of history indicates that is certainly NOT the case. looking at how they are generally portrayed, allowing for the odd exotic ability from both, i see the corps taking this for good majority. they have GREAT answers for ss's powerset AND strange's, while namor and hulk are pretty much useless which also give a major numbers advantage not too long into the fight. but we'll simply not agree i suppose.

Hulk crushing Mjolnir with one hand...

Originally posted by leonidas

jake addressed this already. and as i said, it IS possible strange might be able to whip up something weird to take a hammer or 2. that's why i give them a couple wins.

Nah. They'll get more than a couple of wins. I brought up Strange repairing the hammer to indicate the fact that Steve has almost, if not as much knowledge of the powers of Mjolnir which would be an advantage.




Why is it not accurate? If we use any and every shoing then what conclusion are we going to come to? Character A is up and down showings wise but since he had a bad showing, character B can beat him and vice versa. What would be the use of debating then?



Easier said than done. Show me evidence of Thor landing a GB on someone with the caliber speed of Surfer. Warrior madness will get Thor bfr'ed instantly.



Why not use the high feats for Strange? Taking a look back, quoting Brans post of "alleged low showings" is not helping your case at all because they are all circumstancial. It does nothing to hurt Steve's credibility of higher showings. Take a look:

Dormammu & GR - Dormammu>>>Steven anyway. Not a low showing
Umar amped Clea - Steve said himself he was using lesser spells in order to not hurt Clea. Not a low showing.
Azarel - Steve was depowered. Mordo entrapped his EoA and cloak. Not a low showing.
Sword of Kammu - The mystic had to repeatedly cut through layers of shielding that Steve mentally erected not only around his Santum but the whole nation. Surely not a low showing.
Mystic mist - Steve just said his defences were breached. No spell is cast nor is a shield even shown.
Ningal - Was amped by Dweller in Darkness and still had to continuously pound to the point he grew tired of it and decided to uproot the ground Steven stood on. Certainly not a low showing.
Next scan - The power was increased 100 fold and Steven still managed to repel the beams highest intensity setting. Can't see this as a low showing at all.
Next scan - It took the combined power of 2 mystics. Not a low showing.
Absorbing Man - This was only a shade of Seraphim. Not the actual shield. Not a low showing.
Science scan - Doesn't apply to this fight.
Exaustion - Spell was cast against D'spayre who is a powerful Fearlord demon who's specialty is creating mental madness and fear. D'spayre even admitted no one has ever done that before. Not a low showing.

The other scan is not applible to this battle.



I see it like this: Steve banishes Thunderstrike, Hulk pounds Thor Girl, Surfer can hold his own with BRB. Steve>Thor. By the time Thunderstrike comes back, everybody pounds on him. I don't see the Defenders having much trouble. Mostly due to Steve.

I am confused as to what makes Strange above Thor

Call it ABC, but when the on par Loki with vastly superiour physical stats can't take Thor, obviously the guy who gets one-hitter-quittered constantly, will...

I am still confused at Strange hype. What is it based on exactly? Why is he above Thor? Because he briefly stalemated IB and then got one shotted? Because IB toyed with him, and then Strange with help defeated him using a weakness? He defeated Death in a way no way relevant to Thor?

^ I wonder why I was under the impression that you were a Dr. Strange supporter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I wonder why I was under the impression that you were a Dr. Strange supporter.

shrug

i think bran and i are of the same mindset--strange is tough, but he has NOT been consistently portrayed above high hberald--at all. AND he has displayed far more weaknesses and vulnerabilities than most high heralds.

i LIKE strange. i think strange is AWESOME. i think people who claim strange is consistently trans or can wipe out all high herlads do strange a massive disservice. i'd counter sundips points, but i don't really see the effort as being productive.

what about you odg--strange or thor? just curious.

The misconception about Strange stems from people getting all their info from a few set of scans floating around or maybe some respect thread.

The Flash being some unbeatable speed God etc. stem from similar situations.

^ Not that I think you're downplaying him, but Strange's reputation isn't entirely unearned. Originally posted by leonidas
shrug

i think bran and i are of the same mindset--strange is tough, but he has NOT been consistently portrayed above high hberald--at all. AND he has displayed far more weaknesses and vulnerabilities than most high heralds.

i LIKE strange. i think strange is AWESOME. i think people who claim strange is consistently trans or can wipe out all high herlads do strange a massive disservice. i'd counter sundips points, but i don't really see the effort as being productive.

what about you odg--strange or thor? just curious. I think when the odds are extremely against Dr. Strange, he's able to take his sorcery to another level that beggars description. But when he's pitted against guys who are Thor/Loki/Dr. Doom level, he just... struggles.

I've read every Defenders issue. So I'd like to think I fully appreciate how many times he's been ktfo. But his high feats are that impressive. I think I'd have to call it a split 5/10 between Strange and Thor to balance it out.

But I know that you can argue against that both ways very easily. And because of that I don't really care to defend that opinion.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Not that I think you're downplaying him, but Strange's reputation isn't entirely unearned.
Don't get me wrong, Strange has some pretty crazy showings. Based on how often he deals with high end entities, even if he got his ass kicked 9 out of 10 times, he'd get some crazy feats simply based on how frequently he encounters such forces.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Not that I think you're downplaying him, but Strange's reputation isn't entirely unearned. I think when the odds are extremely against Dr. Strange, he's able to take his sorcery to another level that beggars description. But when he's pitted against guys who are Thor/Loki/Dr. Doom level, he just... struggles.

I've read every Defenders issue. So I'd like to think I fully appreciate how many times he's been ktfo. But his high feats are that impressive. I think I'd have to call it a split 5/10 between Strange and Thor to balance it out.

But I know that you can argue against that both ways very easily. And because of that I don't really care to defend that opinion.

pretty much sums up my opinion perfectly. reason i pick the corps is because of numbers and because i do NOT think strange outcalsses this group as much as some do.

Originally posted by leonidas
shrug

i think bran and i are of the same mindset--strange is tough, but he has NOT been consistently portrayed above high hberald--at all. AND he has displayed far more weaknesses and vulnerabilities than most high heralds.

i LIKE strange. i think strange is AWESOME. i think people who claim strange is consistently trans or can wipe out all high herlads do strange a massive disservice. i'd counter sundips points, but i don't really see the effort as being productive.

what about you odg--strange or thor? just curious.

So you don't think Strange is beyond high herald huh?
So restraining Juggs + encasing Hulk and Surfer with words/gestures to the point where they can't do anything means nothing? mmm I beg to differ.

Sorry but anyone who thinks Classic Steve won't smash any high herald barring PIS is insane.

This is your prob leo:
First you stated most high feats required prep. I gave you non prep feats.
Then you pointed out plot induced showings which weren't even low showings and I dismissed those.
I asked you to prove a few claims but I got no answers at all.
Now all of a sudden you say you would counter my points, but it wouldn't be productive?
facepalm I'm done.

Originally posted by Sundipped
So you don't think Strange is beyond high herald huh?
So restraining Juggs + encasing Hulk and Surfer with words/gestures to the point where they can't do anything means nothing? mmm I beg to differ.

where?



apparently most.



wut? you.... didn't dismiss anything.



huh? like what?



yeah, we'll not see eye-to-eye on strange ever, but i don't get your above points at all......

Originally posted by Sundipped
So you don't think Strange is beyond high herald huh?
So restraining Juggs + encasing Hulk and Surfer with words/gestures to the point where they can't do anything means nothing? mmm I beg to differ.

Didn't Cytorakk encase Juggs? Because Juggs sort of almost broke Strange's back. Been a while though.

He's stopped Hulk with some sleeping spells, and BFR'ed him. Scans of encasing him?

That wasn't even the real Surfer, and he broke out anyway (of both spells meant to stop him), and Strange ended up getting taken out after he jumped in front of an attack to save a girl.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Didn't Cytorakk encase Juggs? Because Juggs sort of almost broke Strange's back. Been a while though.

He's stopped Hulk with some sleeping spells, and BFR'ed him. Scans of encasing him?

That wasn't even the real Surfer, and he broke out anyway (of both spells meant to stop him), and Strange ended up getting taken out after he jumped in front of an attack to save a girl.

Steve took 2 hits and still got up. He commented that he's slower in Cytorakk's realm. It looked like it hurt but his durability is good, even without a shield. Cytorakk snared him with it but Steve maintained the bands.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4502/1864413drstrangesorcere.th.jpg

Steve encased Hulk in Hulk #207. When he tried to leap, the ball dropped straight to the ground.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5646/hulk207bands150f95e.th.jpg

As far as Surfer goes it's not a stretch to say that Steve could encase him (although it may not hold him long) and bfr him. Can't see anything Surfer could really do to him.

Originally posted by leonidas
where?



apparently most.



wut? you.... didn't dismiss anything.



huh? like what?



yeah, we'll not see eye-to-eye on strange ever, but i don't get your above points at all......

confused1 Umm....you might wanna go back and reread pages 1-3.

I would counter your points but I really don't see the effort as being productive. LOL.

Originally posted by Sundipped
As far as Surfer goes it's not a stretch to say that Steve could encase him (although it may not hold him long) and bfr him. Can't see anything Surfer could really do to him.



so.... THIS:



never really happened.....? but COULD?

are those the kinds of things you asked me to 'prove'? because i can make stuff up too and say it WOULD happen. i went back through the thread and near as i can tell everything you required 'proof' for i (and bran) showed you. your reply--all the instances were pis. i can't really help that, nor can i help the way you only want to look at the highest end feats.

in which case, every battle thor was in where he did NOT soul suck or godblast someone is also pis since we only look at the highest showings. thor is therefore a galactus killing, skyfather beating trans/skyfather level hero.

works for me.

Originally posted by leonidas
thor is therefore a galactus killing, skyfather beating trans/skyfather level hero.

works for me.

Word up.

Defenders get blown to hell by a four man multiversal effecting Godblast which the Thor Corps can perform in mere seconds.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Word up.

Defenders get blown to hell by a four man multiversal effecting Godblast which the Thor Corps can perform in mere seconds.

godblast is so overrated

it is virtually useless against a mobile foe as it requires the user to be virtually stationary and it has long enough a charge time that anyone with some speed can easily avoid it

Originally posted by Starscream M
godblast is so overrated

it is virtually useless against a mobile foe as it requires the user to be virtually stationary and it has long enough a charge time that anyone with some speed can easily avoid it

Yah.

Which is why it's cool the Thor Corps have displayed using a Godblast which they literally did in seconds, which is more than fast enough to obliterate the Defenders.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Steve took 2 hits and still got up. He commented that he's slower in Cytorakk's realm. It looked like it hurt but his durability is good, even without a shield. Cytorakk snared him with it but Steve maintained the bands.

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/4502/1864413drstrangesorcere.th.jpg

wut? so your scan shows him holding an already handled juggs and shows nothing of him doing...... anything else? AND in your first post you made it sound like it was STRANGE that dealt with him, when it was really cyttorak?

c'mon man..... it's EXACTLY that type of out of context hype that i'm talking about with strange and you just did EXACTLY that. and you took offense when i said i didn't think the discussion would be productive? as i said--you keep your views, i'll keep mine......


Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Word up.

Defenders get blown to hell by a four man multiversal effecting Godblast which the Thor Corps can perform in mere seconds.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yah.

Which is why it's cool the Thor Corps have displayed using a Godblast which they literally did in seconds, which is more than fast enough to obliterate the Defenders.

and again...

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Yah.

Which is why it's cool the Thor Corps have displayed using a Godblast which they literally did in seconds, which is more than fast enough to obliterate the Defenders. are the defenders just standing there, not moving? godblast cannot hit a small moving target

Originally posted by Starscream M
are the defenders just standing there, not moving? godblast cannot hit a small moving target

If the Thor Corps perform that Godblast as shown in that scan pages ago, it really doesn't matter. It was done as soon as soon as the hammers collided and the scope of the blast effected reality on a multiversal scale. Further more, said blast was a continous surge of energy, not just a single discharge. You're kidding yourself if you think the Defenders would survive it once the Thor Corps performed the attack.

Regardless, the Godblast from the Thor Corps was only brought up after some outlandish and equally unlikely methods of the Defenders winning this was brought up. Leo and Bran already said what needed to be said involving Classic Strange's feats.

Originally posted by leonidas


so.... THIS:



never really happened.....? but COULD?

are those the kinds of things you asked me to 'prove'? because i can make stuff up too and say it WOULD happen. i went back through the thread and near as i can tell everything you required 'proof' for i (and bran) showed you. your reply--all the instances were pis. i can't really help that, nor can i help the way you only want to look at the highest end feats.

in which case, every battle thor was in where he did NOT soul suck or godblast someone is also pis since we only look at the highest showings. thor is therefore a galactus killing, skyfather beating trans/skyfather level hero.

works for me.

Well explain to me how's Surfer supposed to beat Steve 1 on 1? You have yet to answer any question I presented thus far. You talk about stuff being made up but the the thing is....you've said nothing.

I broke down every scan in bran's post and explained to you that everything was circumstancial. That's not "proof" for you. Those scans helped me more than it did you. There was not a low showing in the bunch. How you see this is PIS I can't fathom. Everything that happened was plot induced but reasonable.

I never said it was PIS when Strange failed to go all out every occasion. Common sense would indicate that no character goes hard and performs top of the line feats day in & day out. I don't see where you were going with that. You know Thor is only classified high herald level with all showings. Strange is comfortable trans imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
wut? so your scan shows him holding an already handled juggs and shows nothing of him doing...... anything else? AND in your first post you made it sound like it was STRANGE that dealt with him, when it was really cyttorak?

c'mon man..... it's EXACTLY that type of out of context hype that i'm talking about with strange and you just did EXACTLY that. and you took offense when i said i didn't think the discussion would be productive? as i said--you keep your views, i'll keep mine......


Scan clearly shows Strange in control of the bands. If he's strong enough to hold him, it dosen't matter who snared him. That's the same spell he envokes from Cytorakk. Same bands that restrained Hulk. Nothings out of context. Fact of the matter is Steve is capable of imprisoning them.

I didn't get offended at all. (Did you notice the lol?) It's really comical at this point. I just told you what your problem was with this debate. Then you played dumb & asked me what was I referring to . All you've done is responded courtesy Bran and make little chip posts off other comments. It's almost like your debating via third person.

Anyways I'll take heed to the last 7 words of your post. Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Well explain to me how's Surfer supposed to beat Steve 1 on 1? You have yet to answer any question I presented thus far. You talk about stuff being made up but the the thing is....you've said nothing.

I broke down every scan in bran's post and explained to you that everything was circumstancial. That's not "proof" for you. Those scans helped me more than it did you. There was not a low showing in the bunch. How you see this is PIS I can't fathom. Everything that happened was plot induced but reasonable.

I never said it was PIS when Strange failed to go all out every occasion. Common sense would indicate that no character goes hard and performs top of the line feats day in & day out. I don't see where you were going with that. You know Thor is only classified high herald level with all showings. Strange is comfortable trans imo.

man, we've really differing views of what exactly has been going on in this thread. i repeat--what exactly did you ask me? you said his shields were invulnerable. scans showed it wasn't, you said it was pis. you say he's trans. i list a bunch of low level guys who've ko'd him and you say it's pis. i say he gets tired and his stamina and durability are not great and are a definite vulnerabilty. i show some scans and.... you say its pis.

things aren't 'circumstantial' just because you want to believe it is so. those things happen to strange OFTEN. his 'trans' feats are FAR outweighed by bis far LESS than trans-feats. and really, WHAT feats?? seriously? the ib? who with a FRACTION of his power earlier was going to slay strange but didn't want to? death? how tough was that avatar?? certainly not galactus.....

for all that you want him to be trans, he has decidedly FEW feats to back that up and they are no where NEAR consistent enough. ss has a otn of feats that i could use to say he's trans--defeated tenebrous and aegis, defeated mephisto in hell (and he kicked strange's and doom's a$$ there) destroying a watcher, stalemating the stranger, synthesizing the odinpower, defeating elders of the universe, beating murrungo mu who galactus was apparently afraid of. i could go on. is that enouh to put him in trans as well? i could do the same for thor.

and as i said, ss has synthesized the odinpower--i think he could definitely answer anything strange wanted to try though it would be a good battle. and juggs was already subdued--had he been figthing strange directly it is far from clear he could have got the bands on him and given that they have been broken in the past it's not unlikely that cyttorak's spell was stronger than strange could have cast.

for every high end feat, i showed less than high end feats. we don't go by just high end feats when determining level, and THAT is my 'problem' with this debate. a couple high end feats are all you want to use to define him. and that's your perogative. i see him, his history, and his consistent showings in a much different light.

this must be the post you say i didn't reply to.....


Originally posted by Sundipped
Dormammu & GR - Dormammu>>>Steven anyway. Not a low showing

i agree--dormmy>strange

Umar amped Clea - Steve said himself he was using lesser spells in order to not hurt Clea. Not a low showing.

huh?? no he wasn't? SHE called it a lesser spell. he was shocked that thought the spell was weak. that is NOT one of his lesser spells....



again.... huh?? WHO 'deprived' him of his tools?? it wasn't mordo. azrael cast the bands. not sure what you're talking about. and the eye and the cloak 'depowered' his shields?? you can have fun proving that....



depends on how 'invincible' you claim his shields are i guess. you're right, not low imo because i've seen his shields broken before. but i'm not claiming they are invulnerable.....



no spell? what do you think that white blast was....?



the pounding prevented his reinforcing it, which is what i'd said earlier. and who knows how amped?



a hundred times what?? you can choose to see it as a good showing, i see it as a typical one.



again, mystics. and again, just mroe proof the shields can be smashed.



honestly, again i have to say strange cursed. he didn't cast a shades of the seraphim spell..... the shield was smashed by creel....



i could show his beat down by skurge and amora and how exhausted he was. and his battle with hulk. there are others. i could show his battle with nebula too.....

again, i think this is likely pointless. i'm MORE than happy to let people look and judge for themselves. but i really don't understand some of what you said above about those scans......

Originally posted by leonidas
man, we've really differing views of what exactly has been going on in this thread. i repeat--what exactly did you ask me? you said his shields were invulnerable. scans showed it wasn't, you said it was pis. you say he's trans. i list a bunch of low level guys who've ko'd him and you say it's pis. i say he gets tired and his stamina and durability are not great and are a definite vulnerabilty. i show some scans and.... you say its pis.

Questions you ignored:




Remember now??

Show me where I said his shields were invunerable.
Those scans do absolutely nothing to help your case pis or not.



Things happen to everybody so whats your point? You tried to cherry pick what you thought were low showings and failed miserably. The fact that IB said Steve was formidable casts aside your preconcieved notion that IB was taking it that easy on him. I already told you that an M-body holds the essence of the actual entity. Quit trying to lowball his encounter with Death. Let's see Thor try to oppose Death and see what happens.



My opinion is that with all of his items at his disposal he is no less than low trans. Scans of Surfer destroying a Watcher? Not really impressive anyway considering the head Watcher got ko'ed by Rulk.confused As far as Elders go Surfer got punked by Runner with extreme ease. He didn't beat T & A straight up he channeled the crunch. Oh and Mephisto stomped Surfer. What fight were you reading??

"Your power cosmic is like the yapping of an earthly puppy to the roar of Mephisto's might".
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3921/606737m3super14ca6df.th.jpg




Synthesization doesn't = win. Strange is capable of flight but you say he'd be hard pressed to get the bands on Juggs?
The same bands that had Hulk pinned up and I think everyone ould agree Hulk>/=Juggs. Not unlikely that Steve can cast and hold him as well.



Sorry but what you showed showed were not "less than high end feats".

Originally posted by leonidas
this must be the post you say i didn't reply to.....

i agree--dormmy>strange

Umar amped Clea - Steve said himself he was using lesser spells in order to not hurt Clea. Not a low showing.

huh?? no he wasn't? SHE called it a lesser spell. he was shocked that thought the spell was weak. that is NOT one of his lesser spells....



again.... huh?? WHO 'deprived' him of his tools?? it wasn't mordo. azrael cast the bands. not sure what you're talking about. and the eye and the cloak 'depowered' his shields?? you can have fun proving that....



depends on how 'invincible' you claim his shields are i guess. you're right, not low imo because i've seen his shields broken before. but i'm not claiming they are invulnerable.....



no spell? what do you think that white blast was....?



the pounding prevented his reinforcing it, which is what i'd said earlier. and who knows how amped?



a hundred times what?? you can choose to see it as a good showing, i see it as a typical one.



again, mystics. and again, just mroe proof the shields can be smashed.



honestly, again i have to say strange cursed. he didn't cast a shades of the seraphim spell..... the shield was smashed by creel....



i could show his beat down by skurge and amora and how exhausted he was. and his battle with hulk. there are others. i could show his battle with nebula too.....

again, i think this is likely pointless. i'm MORE than happy to let people look and judge for themselves. but i really don't understand some of what you said above about those scans......

Youre right it would be pointless. Pointless because of the fact you fail to comprehend the scans correctly. Either that or you didn't read em yourself. It's so much wrong with your interpretation of those scans that I won't even bother deciphering this again. Like you said, the people can judge for themselves.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Questions you ignored:

ignored?? er, don't really think so. the vishanti attack? thor absorbs it, shields it. and would it even be in character or would the vishanti agree if he were fighting thor? questionable in both cases.


i ignored the the ss's speed/gb issue cuz, well, we were talking about strange.

how's ss to beat strange? a planet obliterating blast to break his shields followed by a second blast that kills him. you talked about speed. show me a scan of strange hitting someone as fast as ss. ss has his own shields and doesn't need to speak to anyone about using 'their' power.

strange himself has admitted ss is more powerful than he is, but i know how you'll label that.

THOSE were the questions you wanted answered??



they indicate that it IS easily within reason that a hammer throw could smash strange's shield, something you saw as ridiculous early on. so, yeah, they helped. a lot. unless i need to show some of the power of thor's throws. a couple are pretty common knowledge though.



you're wrong about that--i wasn't really trying to pcik low feats. those are TYPICAL feats. there's a big difference.



seriously? a compliment? and you're really clinging to those TWO feats. you're hanging your notion of him on his showing against ib and death. the second ib meeting could easily be seen as pis since in the FIRST meeting ib was WELL beyond him and nearly killed him with a 'fraction' of his power.



that's mostly true, but not the entirety of said being nor the entirety of their power. and of course you're forgetting it wasn't strange's power that did it, it was the vishanti's. and frankly it would likely be out of character for him to call on all 3 against thor.... certainly didn't seem to happen in blood and thunder where strange was pretty useless against thor who only had a SINGLE gem and who was a threat to the UNIVERSE.... without all his items thor wrecked him and warlock simultaneously.



lowball?? lol how many times did i say it was a good feat--but unquantifiable. quasar beat anamoly, an abstract, 1on1. bobby drake ko'd OBLIVION! that uber feat you keep talking up has been done by others. ss and thor have showings at LEAST as good as those 2, and loads more. why not make them trans?




you're using rulk? and you say I'M lowballing? the head watcher was killed, incidentally, by exitar quite some time ago. if uatu is now the leader of all the watchers, i'd love to see proof?



true, but he did beat a few and has gone 1on1 with ego himself. among his other uber feats.



ironic much? that is precisely what strange does.....



never read the one-shot, eh.....?



yeah, except that was and has been contradicted in nearly ALL their fights. and it's not like mephisto lies often....



sure he could fly. but if juggs is moving he is unstoppable. would the bands stop him if he was moving? beats me. but i think if namor can break them, jugss has a good chance at them...



never said he couldn't. just that the situation in your scan would not NECESSARILY be played out without cyttorak's intervention.



really? so you're saying they WERE high feats? cuz otherwise, they're..... less than high end.

so, really, other than the second ib fight, and death, what HAS strange done, by himself, no prep or pis, that makes him so unbeatable? i looked back and you really haven't given much of anything aside from those 2 things.

the tp attack? one of the reasons (and i said this early on) that i gave strange and the defenders some wins is BECAUSE i think tp COULD play and issue, but thor has some great tp resistance at times, and if strange is focused on that, he's left open for others to attack. i said that too....

Originally posted by Sundipped
Pointless because of the fact you fail to comprehend the scans correctly. Either that or you didn't read em yourself. It's so much wrong with your interpretation of those scans that I won't even bother deciphering this again. Like you said, the people can judge for themselves.

you do seem to enjoy irony, but yeah, i'd challenge any reader out there to look at the scans then read your interpretations and not see the reasons for my....confusion.

Originally posted by leonidas
ignored?? er, don't really think so. the vishanti attack? thor absorbs it, shields it. and would it even be in character or would the vishanti agree if he were fighting thor? questionable in both cases.

Do you even know who the Vishanti are? Saying Thor would casually absorb/shield a blast channeled via Steve from all 3 members is absurd. What do you mean would they agree? What ties to Thor do they have which wouldn't allow them to grant Steve power. They grant power to the sorcerer supreme regardless who it is and who they battle. Nothing questionable about that.



The surfer speedblitz was relevant because this is a team battle and Surfer is on Steves team. As far as Surfer beating him, all Steve has to do is bfr him. He doesn't have to hit him. Steve's shields have held up aginst the destruction of planets and even realms so Surfer blasting away won't do much. Lol at you saying Surfer doesn't have to speak to use power. In case you missed it thats the benefit of being sorcerer supreme. Scans of him saying Surfer is more powerfull?



They don't indicate anything but plot induced circumstances involving his shield which still held up despite those instances. A high level demon can't penetrate it but a hammer toss from a high herald is supposed to easily break it? Whatever floats your boat leo. The feats are typical and good imo. It shows that his shields still operate at a high level given the circumstances.



He was in good condition when LC & MO showed up in the first meeting. Like I said earlier, being able to stalemate beams with him with LT standing there (albeit briefly) is still a feat. I'm not clinging on to it. Just pointing out a couple things.



There are numerous occasions Steve has called on the Vishanti. Don't see why you don't think he will. This is one of the reasons I place him at the trans level. Because he has that ability. As for Thor, he'll never be considered trans because he (w/power gem)only managed a stalemate with a certified trans level being in Thanos.
When I said head watcher I mean the most familiar one.
Steve doesn't channel the crunch. What did you mean by that? You can't compare Steve envoking multiple entities occasionally to Surfer using a plot device that one time to beat T & A.



Look, it's Mephisto>>>Surfer as far as raw power output. Could Surfer ever challenge Big G like this. I think not.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4230/ssjd585gn.th.jpg http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3257/ssjd566zs.th.jpg



Don't know why you're making up irrelevant instances such as Juggs charging. It's irrelevant because Steve has flight capabilities. What's Jugg's going to charge to? This is tiring. I'm not going over this again. The bands held Hulk, the can hold Juggs too.



No they weren't high end. Less than high end but certainly not low end.



Never said Steve was totally unbeatable. He's not in this match by himself. I just don't see a team of hammers posing that much of a threat. At least not enough to win a majority vs. the Defenders. He beat Shuma by himself and has shown energy absorption abilities through the use of dark magic. Enough to destroy galaxies as I showed you earlier. He has the aid of the Vishanti if need be. And that's with no prep or artifacts at his disposal. What more do you need?

Now leo you can take the time and break down that post if you want but my views are going to remain the same. You think Thor Corps win, I think Defenders win for various reasons. Lets leave it at that.

Originally posted by Sundipped
Do you even know who the Vishanti are? Saying Thor would casually absorb/shield a blast channeled via Steve from all 3 members is absurd. What do you mean would they agree? What ties to Thor do they have which wouldn't allow them to grant Steve power. They grant power to the sorcerer supreme regardless who it is and who they battle. Nothing questionable about that.

the vishanti? sure, they're about galactus level in their own realms (at least aggy is, the other 2 are likely less powerful than aggy is) which would likely place them around elder god level imo. they are linked with chthon as well, which also leads me to think that would be about their level. my question revolves around the likelihood of him summoning the vishanti in this kind of battle--at least all of them. and they HAVE turned him down in the past. i thought (could be wrong) he only invoked them like he did against death, rarely. i'm unaware off-hand of another time he invoked all 3 adn he only did it against death because he was desperate. i just don't really see that attack happening here.

and given that thor absorbed the entire celestial null bomb, (a power orders of magnitude greater than galactus's herald my rage blast) i have no problem at all thinking thor could absorb it.



and we've seen repeatedly that they have been broken by far less as well.



a LOT of his powerful spells are incantations. if he wants to invoke, he has to speak. he can blast, but i see no way he'd ever hit ss if ss didn't want to be hit.



a skyfather level hammer.....



i never said they were weak--only that it is certainly conceiveable that thor could shatter them.



yeah, but individually, usually.



hrm, i'll disagree--vehemently with that.



steve channels power from outside sources. ss channeled power from an outside source. he's absorbed suns to amp himself in the past. it's in his powerset, he just rarely uses it. no different really from strange.



no, he couldn't because when he tries g steals his power. ss has stalemated mephisto a number of times and once no-sold a blast from his. and he fully overpowered him on one occasion. scans are apparently unavailable however, but it was bryne's one-shot. and he stalemated him for a while in his own book as well. and mu. and stranger. and he killed a throttled a watcher. he has many MANY feats i could list.



and hulk's broken them too. as has namor. juggs could too.



he'd never use dark magic in this match. ever.



i need to see him consistently perform these feats you bring up--and i say it again, you really haven't brought up many. death? ib? dark magic-ing shuma? those few things put him at trans? some say higher! because he can summon the vishanti powers means he can beat anyone below them? could he kill odin with that blast? my point has always been that his feats are often overrated, seen without context and the ones everyone knows about are FEW, and outweighed by his more 'below skyfather level showings'. he's powerful, no doubt. could he beat thor? sure. could thor defeat him. yes, certainly imo.

and, and as for the strange admitting ss's greater--he did it when they were facing thanos and he told ss that only ss had the power to take out the titan. scan is around somewhere, and has been posted many times in the past.

With CIS...I can't picture any of the Thors taking WWH out.

I felt Mephisto's name being invoked across the internet and braced myself for disappointment. I am disappoint.