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Classic "The Enemy" Michael Korvac vs Kubik in a battle to the Death or KO with no BFR allowed...

Who wins?

Kubik for the destruction.

Korvac only went up against a team of Avengers and GotG whose most powerful members were Thor and Starhawk.

Kubik took out slightly more than 1/2 a Cube Being.

Going with Kubik here. It would be an interesting fight though.

Obviously it was a "what if?", but it portrayed Korvac as being able to take out the Shaper of Worlds with a thought. The Shaper of Worlds is a cube being.

So, although the "what if?" events cannot be used here, would any of you say that the Korvac from that book is equal in power to canon-Korvac?

Originally posted by Horrificus
Obviously it was a "what if?", but it portrayed Korvac as being able to take out the Shaper of Worlds with a thought. The Shaper of Worlds is a cube being.

So, although the "what if?" events cannot be used here, would any of you say that the Korvac from that book is equal in power to canon-Korvac?
a) Even though I like Gruenwald, that What If was full of inconsistencies.
b) 616 Korvac's most impressive fight was vs the Avengers/GotG whose most powerful members were Thor and Starhawk.
c) The Elder he "killed" was a geriatric that was having an actual HEART ATTACK trying to deal with the Avengers. Hawkeye almost killed him with an arrow to the chest.

Kubik actually took out post Retcon Beyonder with ease.

At first this may not sound impressive, but as we've seen even post retcon Beyonder is a monster in terms of power. Apparently ALL of his Secret War fights/feats are kosher (as seen in that Spiderman and the Secret Wars series). Spiderman took out ALL the heroes and villains in the Secret War series AND Galactus himself with post Retcon Beyonder's power. Spiderman recreated the entire universe in the SECONDS he was in possession of post Retcon Beyonder's powers.

Post Retcon Beyonder's fight with evil post retcon MM was warping the entire multiverse.

Nothing Classic Korvac did is in that league. Not even close.

Kubik destroys him.

Originally posted by zopzop
a) Even though I like Gruenwald, that What If was full of inconsistencies.
b) 616 Korvac's most impressive fight was vs the Avengers/GotG whose most powerful members were Thor and Starhawk.
c) The Elder he "killed" was a geriatric that was having an actual HEART ATTACK trying to deal with the Avengers. Hawkeye almost killed him with an arrow to the chest.

Kubik actually took out post Retcon Beyonder with ease.

At first this may not sound impressive, but as we've seen even post retcon Beyonder is a monster in terms of power. Apparently ALL of his Secret War fights/feats are kosher (as seen in that Spiderman and the Secret Wars series). Spiderman took out ALL the heroes and villains in the Secret War series AND Galactus himself with post Retcon Beyonder's power. Spiderman recreated the entire universe in the SECONDS he was in possession of post Retcon Beyonder's powers.

Post Retcon Beyonder's fight with evil post retcon MM was warping the entire multiverse.

Nothing Classic Korvac did is in that league. Not even close.

Kubik destroys him. Gotcha.

Originally posted by zopzop

Kubik actually took out post Retcon Beyonder with
We should highlight that was Post-retcon Beyonder at half his power.

I also know that in Beyonder's retcon issue where Kubik stomped him,
it was understood that Cube beings were below the power of Eternity,
while the Spiderman mini has Beyonder's power remaking All Creation,
also Becoming All Creation,
Past, Present and Future.

So, 1989 = post Beyonder < Eternity

2010 = post Beyonder = I can become and remake the Omniverse.
Originally posted by zopzop

At first this may not sound impressive, but as we've seen even
post retcon Beyonder is a monster in terms of power. Apparently
ALL of his Secret War fights/feats are kosher (as seen in that
Spiderman and the Secret Wars series). Spiderman took out ALL
the heroes and villains in the Secret War series AND Galactus
himself with post Retcon Beyonder's power. Spiderman recreated
the entire universe in the SECONDS he was in possession of post
Retcon Beyonder's powers.
Which is exactly why the "retcon" doesn't mesh well with the Spiderman mini.

We have to choose either or ...

Because if we consider the retcon (a depowered half-cube)
then this means Half Cube power = become and remake Everything,
which begs the question, where the hell does this boost Kubik too?
Or perhaps,
Kubik was talking shit supposing the Celestials were above him,
when he can stomp Omniversal power.

The only other explanation for Beyonder's freakish power as a Cube being,
is his improper development (Not withIN a CCU)
which lead to the evolution of a raw sentient Cosmic Containment Unit,
and CCUs have no limits like their conscious selves. (Cube beings)

Imo, the latter makes the most sense.

A CCU has already proven omniversal power years before the Spiderman mini.
Originally posted by zopzop

Post Retcon Beyonder's fight with evil post retcon MM
was warping the entire multiverse and BEYOND!.
Fixed. ... They made Superman

Originally posted by zopzop

Nothing Classic Korvac did is in that league. Not even close.

Kubik destroys him.
Korvac made subtle alterations to the 616 Universe,
and masked himself from Eternity's & LT's awareness.

He still stomped everyone effortlessly. (well, all who confronted him)

He also defeated Starhawk on every plane of existence, (there's 3)
which means ... the Physical - Mental and Astral realities.

That aside, I agree Zop ... Kubik should still win.

"What If" Korvac, imo, is Korvac, unleashed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
We should highlight that was Post-retcon Beyonder at half his power.

I also know that in Beyonder's retcon issue where Kubik stomped him,
it was understood that Cube beings were below the power of Eternity,
while the Spiderman mini has Beyonder's power remaking All Creation,
also Becoming All Creation,
Past, Present and Future.

So, 1989 = post Beyonder < Eternity

2010 = post Beyonder = I can become and remake the Omniverse.

You actually bring up a good point I forgot. Evil MM had only a SLIVER of his former 1/2 Cube powers yet he beat an almost full Cube Being aka post retcon Beyonder (I say almost full because MM kept a sliver of his power and it didn't go into the CUbe that created Kosmos/Beyonder II).

Kubik then said and I'm paraphrasing "Theoretically we should be equal in power" to Evil MM but that doesn't make sense either. Kubik is a FULL Cube Being, evil MM was a sliver of 1/2 a Cube Being.

That issue was poorly written.

Also you can bust a universe and still be under Eternity in power. Remember what Surtur almost accomplished recently. Surtur is at best a Skyfather, yet he apparently has universe busting power. But I'm willing to bet Eternity beats him in a fight.

Again, post Retcon Beyonder's Secret War I feats were valid as shown in the Spiderman and teh Secret Wars arc. Post Retcon Beyonder's power :
a) busted a galaxy
b) created Battleworld
c) beat every hero and villain assembled there including a hungry Galactus (when Spiderman had his power)
d) warped reality (when Spiderman had his power)
e) created his own universe (not Secret War I related but that's what happened at the end of Secret Wars II and it was carried over in that FF issue where he and MM merged into a Cube).

That's the guy Kubik beat (even laughing off a surprise attack from MM while doing it too). Kubik also effortlessly warped post Retcon Beyonder's entire universe into sphere he threatened to crush.

Korvac is out of his league here.

Again, you can be a universal level reality warper and still not be the equal to Eternity. Look at Adult Franklin Richards. He couldn't handle 3 Rogue Celestials without help from 616 Franklin (this guy created his own universe/pocket dimension before) and 4 planet amped Galactus and Sol's Anvil. I'm willing to bet Eternity would crush those 4 Rogue Celestials (merged or no).

Also it seems not all Cube Beings are created equal. Compare Shaper of World's best fights/feats to Kubik's to post Retcon Beyonder's.

Notice that when Shaper and Kubik traveled to post Retcon Beyonder's universe, it was Kubik that lead the offensive against the Beyonder. Shaper hung back and was distracting MM (even still MM got a sucker attack off on Kubik and Kubik just shrugged it off).


Originally posted by Mr Master
Korvac made subtle alterations to the 616 Universe,
and masked himself from Eternity's & LT's awareness.

He still stomped everyone effortlessly. (well, all who confronted him)

He also defeated Starhawk on every plane of existence, (there's 3)
which means ... the Physical - Mental and Astral realities.

That aside, I agree Zop ... Kubik should still win.

"What If" Korvac, imo, is Korvac, unleashed.
Korvac did nothing at all impressive in his canon appearances ever my friend. Hell Odin has better feats and fights than canon Korvac.

Korvac's only claim to fame is that very dodgy What If issue that had stuff like :
a) LT's "ultimate judgement" was making a star go nova
b) Korvac beating all the cosmics yet crapping himself at the sight of the alien armada (this was re-stated in the follow up to that What If too)
c) Korvac needing the UN to wipe out the universe despite having all that supposed "power"

Originally posted by zopzop

You actually bring up a good point I forgot. Evil MM had only a
SLIVER of his former 1/2 Cube powers yet he beat an almost full
Cube Being aka post retcon Beyonder (I say almost full because
MM kept a sliver of his power and it didn't go into the CUbe that
created Kosmos/Beyonder II).

Kubik then said and I'm paraphrasing "Theoretically we should be
equal in power" to Evil MM but that doesn't make sense either.
Kubik is a FULL Cube Being, evil MM was a sliver of 1/2 a Cube Being.

That issue was poorly written.
I disagree it was "poorly" written friend.

We had this debate before.

The writers simply disregarded the whole "sliver" understanding
once Beyonder and Owen merged. That's for goes for both of them.

This is why Kubik told Owen "our powers should be equal."

Because both Beyonder and Owen are full Cube Beings.

Owen surpasses them all
because he's a human being with full Cube being power.

Beyonder (AFTER merging with Owen ... and NOT Kosmos/Maker/691)
The Beyonder, who Kubik said to kill would wreck the Multiverse,
The Beyonder, who Thanos said was 'infinite power trapped in the Maker,
and Thanos was afraid of the Beyonder withIN the Maker,
evidently is being portrayed at nearly back in the day levels.

* Note * To this day, (just sayin)
the only character in Eternity's bio that's referenced as a
category that can threaten Eternity itself, is The Beyonder.
Originally posted by zopzop

Also you can bust a universe and still be under Eternity in power.
Remember what Surtur almost accomplished recently. Surtur is at
best a Skyfather, yet he apparently has universe busting power.
But I'm willing to bet Eternity beats him in a fight.

Again, post Retcon Beyonder's Secret War I feats were valid as
shown in the Spiderman and teh Secret Wars arc. Post Retcon Beyonder's power :
a) busted a galaxy
b) created Battleworld
c) beat every hero and villain assembled there including a hungry Galactus (when Spiderman had his power)
d) warped reality (when Spiderman had his power)
e) created his own universe (not Secret War I related but that's
what happened at the end of Secret Wars II and it was carried over
in that FF issue where he and MM merged into a Cube).

That's the guy Kubik beat (even laughing off a surprise attack from MM while doing it too). Kubik also effortlessly warped post Retcon Beyonder's entire universe into sphere he threatened to crush.

Again, you can be a universal level reality warper and still not be
the equal to Eternity. Look at Adult Franklin Richards. He couldn't
handle 3 Rogue Celestials without help from 616 Franklin (this guy
created his own universe/pocket dimension before) and 4 planet
amped Galactus and Sol's Anvil. I'm willing to bet Eternity would
crush those 4 Rogue Celestials (merged or no).

Also it seems not all Cube Beings are created equal. Compare
Shaper of World's best fights/feats to Kubik's to post Retcon Beyonder's.

Notice that when Shaper and Kubik traveled to post Retcon Beyonder's universe, it was Kubik that lead the offensive against the Beyonder. Shaper hung back and was distracting MM (even still MM got a sucker attack off on Kubik and Kubik just shrugged it off).
You continue to mention that busting/creating a universe is no big deal,
and Eternity is above that.

That's nice. I agree.
You can destroy/remake Alternate Eternities and still be below All Eternity.

But Wolverine & Spiderman & Dr Doom Became one with Everything,
and Remade All Creation ... All Time-Space ... Past-Present-Future:

... WithIN a Billionth of a Second no less. stoned

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t/15602179_nano.jpg

Holy! (this is why below the writer has Spidey/Doom speaking as one)


and also ... more like the Omniverse, no?

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12100812_Cube_being_-_all_powerful8.jpg

"In that moment I gained the powers ...

I was Everywhere ... and Everything ... and Everyone ...

In that moment, which is this moment. I remade all of creation."

-------------------------------------------------------

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t/12100447_Cube_being_-_all_powerful5.jpg

"The power I now possess reaches into the Past, the Future, All Time and Space"


===============================


I'm not sure you knew how monumental this feat was bringing up a galaxy being busted.

That aside, I agree, Kubik is above Shaper, only because Shaper's imagination
never blossomed with the freakin Skrulls as his foundation.

Originally posted by zopzop

Korvac did nothing at all impressive in his canon appearances ever my friend.
Hell Odin has better feats and fights than canon Korvac.

Korvac's only claim to fame is that very dodgy What If issue that had stuff like :
a) LT's "ultimate judgement" was making a star go nova
b) Korvac beating all the cosmics yet crapping himself at the sight of the alien
armada (this was re-stated in the follow up to that What If too)
c) Korvac needing the UN to wipe out the universe despite having all that
supposed "power"
This debate, we've also had before.

That was the plot of the story.
Fact remains, Korvac was defeating
the most powerful Multiversal cosmic assembly ever up to that point.

Also, was a 1982 What If ... writers have freer reign,
and inevitable inconsistencies will present themselves in order to prolong the story primarily,
and finally, to try and end it with contextual substance.

btw. Korvac one-hotted the In-Betweener
while the In-Betweener was in his own pocket dimension Outside Korvac's reality.

Meh, it's not the biggest thing ever,
but at-least it showed that Korvac was able to extend his power to other Realities.
(remember,
he wasn't interested in conquering the Multiverse or any other universe,
aside from his own,
he only did that to the In-Betweener cause they were conspiring/attacking him.)

*** I've always been the one to support the idea that the LT jobbed like never before in that story,
and Imo, he jobbed cause the writer knew he could've destroyed Korvac,
but ONLY him it seemed in that story.