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COIE Anti-Monitor:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7658/348512-107462-anti-monitor.jpg

Ivory Kings:

http://www.comicbookherald.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/NA31_8.jpg

Could Anti-Monitor at his peak erases the Ivory Kings race?

Ivory Kings stomp.

Ivory Kings were weak sauce. AM stomps.

Originally posted by Zack M
Ivory Kings were weak sauce. AM stomps. Am got wrecked by the flash and Supergirl. Ivory Kings stomp.

AM already wielded multiversal power before he ever absorbed the anti-matter universe and battled Spectre. How can I be sure?

Because the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, all positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe AM destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/aHQsCKz.jpg

Despite Monitor being a confirmed multiversal force, AM, at his absolute weakest levels, was still Monitor's equal(IOW, he, too, was a multiversal power):
http://i.imgur.com/3kpzbGM.jpg
"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with equal power. A war in which there could be no victor."


That said, for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/EHiRuoI.jpg

So when AM absorbed the anti-matter universe:
http://i.imgur.com/Wesccrv.jpg
...He would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 positive matter universes that still remained, lol) on top of the multiversal power he already wielded.

This means peak AM was a multi-multiversal power... Or a megaversal power... Whichever terminology you prefer.


The Ivory Kings' best feat(by FAR) is 3 of them beating a fully multiversal being, in the form of LT. Their crappiest showings are Thor and Hyperion steamrolling through several of them, and being outright destroyed by Starbrand's planet-level detonation. IOW, it's f*cking hard to figure out an 'average', with their only real showings being at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. They certainly never beat a being as powerful as peak AM on panel, though.

AM tears them apart

Prob the first time I've seen Mr. Master side on DC.

Originally posted by Galan007
AM already wielded multiversal power before he ever absorbed the anti-matter universe and battled Spectre. How can I be sure?

Because the original Monitor was linked to, and powered by, all positive matter universes throughout the infinite pre-crisis multiverse. That's why he became increasingly weaker with each positive matter universe AM destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/aHQsCKz.jpg

Despite Monitor being a confirmed multiversal force, AM, at his absolute weakest levels, was still Monitor's equal(IOW, he, too, was a multiversal power):
http://i.imgur.com/3kpzbGM.jpg
"And so they began a war which lasted one million years. A war waged with equal power. A war in which there could be no victor."


That said, for each positive matter universe AM destroyed, his anti-matter universe expanded to fill the void. Basically, every time he destroyed a positive matter universe, he gained a universe-worth of anti-matter energy:
http://i.imgur.com/EHiRuoI.jpg

So when AM absorbed the anti-matter universe:
http://i.imgur.com/Wesccrv.jpg
...He would have gained power equivalent to an infinite amount of universes(minus the 5 positive matter universes that still remained, lol) on top of the multiversal power he already wielded.

This means peak AM was a multi-multiversal power... Or a megaversal power... Whichever terminology you prefer.


The Ivory Kings' best feat(by FAR) is 3 of them beating a fully multiversal being, in the form of LT. Their crappiest showings are Thor and Hyperion steamrolling through several of them, and being outright destroyed by Starbrand's planet-level detonation. IOW, it's f*cking hard to figure out an 'average', with their only real showings being at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. They certainly never beat a being as powerful as peak AM on panel, though.
And all of them died by the explosion that destroyed a few thousand universes.

Ivory kings stomp

Considering it's the entire race, I'd side with the Beyonders here.

I mean yeah two were beaten by Starbrand explosion and weird Ex-Nihili/Abyss shenanigans, but the fact remains that there were thousands of Beyonders, and it only took three to kill the LT, who is generally considered = COIE AM

Even the whole Thor and Hyperion thing is considered way to much- we never see Thor or Hype do any damage to a single Beyonder, and it's clear they swarmed out on mass because they were angry, not because they were all needed to deal with them.

So yeah, COIE AM is no joke and would do well but against their entire race would probably lose.

Originally posted by Genii96
Ivory kings stomp

Ivory Kings pummel and please stop with the being hurt by Thor and Hyperion nonsense.

Who the hell is Abby trying to fool with his avatar change? This is the equivalent of Donald Trump becoming pro woman, pro black, pro Mexican and pro Muslim at the same time.

What does abbis sig and avi have to do with the thread? Dude just got back from a stint in iso and hes already trolling

Originally posted by iceman24567
What does abbis sig and avi have to do with the thread? Dude just got back from a stint in iso and hes already trolling Drama queen.

^Then the biggest troll who has been banned several times has to chime in perfect

Originally posted by iceman24567
What does abbis sig and avi have to do with the thread? Dude just got back from a stint in iso and hes already trolling

Why, you feeling left out?

Originally posted by iceman24567
^Then the biggest troll who has been banned several times has to chime in perfect

Instead of acting like a bootleg bodyguard, maybe you could explain yours.

Marvel face, D.C. booty.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Why, you feeling left out? I was lonely while you were gone

Originally posted by Galan007
The Ivory Kings' best feat(by FAR) is 3 of them beating a fully multiversal being, in the form of LT. Their crappiest showings are Thor and Hyperion steamrolling through several of them, and being outright destroyed by Starbrand's planet-level detonation. IOW, it's f*cking hard to figure out an 'average', with their only real showings being at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. They certainly never beat a being as powerful as peak AM on panel, though.

Given their extremely limited number of appearances, this inconstancy cannot be ignored.

Originally posted by Cogito
Given their extremely limited number of appearances, this inconstancy cannot be ignored. Agreed

Originally posted by Cogito
Given their extremely limited number of appearances, this inconstancy cannot be ignored.


You mean if the statement quoted were true, because it isn't.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Agreed

Truly shocking

Oh the irony

Originally posted by iceman24567
^Then the biggest troll who has been banned several times has to chime in perfect And still your vagina bleeds. Let it flow.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Who the hell is Abby trying to fool with his avatar change? This is the equivalent of Donald Trump becoming pro woman, pro black, pro Mexican and pro Muslim at the same time. He has marvel envy.

Looking forward to your next and final ban troll from what i can remember you are on a sinking ship

Originally posted by iceman24567
Looking forward to your next and final ban troll from what i can remember you are on a sinking ship Looking forward to when you hit menopause so the bleeding stops.

You do a good job giving the mods a reason to dispose of you talk about digging your own grave

Originally posted by iceman24567
You do a good job giving the mods a reason to dispose of you talk about digging your own grave Drama QUEEN.

Keep it coming troll

Originally posted by iceman24567
Keep it coming troll

https://66.media.tumblr.com/0ccd3675ae8403f8f913748439706f4f/tumblr_nz3dyaIlKn1u8k0k8o1_250.gif

Yup spam the thread with gifs we already know the mods hate that

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yup spam the thread with gifs we already know the mods hate that You are boring, ivory kings win. Too many of them and the Am isn't that durable against just precrisis heroes.

Ps. Drama, drama, drama.

Yup the AM wins even trolls cant prove otherwise

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yup the AM wins even trolls cant prove otherwise I just told you why. Suspect durability and limited power source, bleeder.

Nice job not proving anything AM wins

Originally posted by iceman24567
Nice job not proving anything AM wins You didn't refute my point you just restated your opinion. Evidence>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>your emotion laden opinion.

Everything you stated was purely your opinion so i stated mine which is Am wins

Anti Monitor stomps.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
You mean if the statement quoted were true, because it isn't.

Which fact do you have a problem with?

Originally posted by iceman24567
^Then the biggest troll who has been banned several times has to chime in perfect

Originally posted by iceman24567
Everything you stated was purely your opinion so i stated mine which is Am wins Except I cited specific facts to support it. Ivory kings are more powerful and greater in number than the assault Am received at the hands of the Flash and Supergirl separately. M

Evidence >>>>your opinions.

Originally posted by Zack M
I know right AM wins

Originally posted by iceman24567
I know right AM wins

It's just funny, because BAV talks shit, yet he's the one that gets banned.

IMHO, Peak COIE AM destroys them.

Only thing against AM is that he doesn't have that "snap your fingers" power. He has to build up the anti-matter wave

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon

Prob the first time I've seen Mr. Master side on DC.


The entire race of BeyonderS?

1 Beyonder wiped out infinite Celestials
1 Beyonder wiped out infinite Eternities and infinities

3 Beyonders wiped out the most powerful cat Marvel could throw at em.

In Hickman's world, the "multiverse" was everything in Marvel minus the Beyond Realm.
And the LT was the MOST powerful entity n Marvel.

Ie. We can interchange the term "multiverse" with "omniverse" imo.

Because some writers term "everything" as the "multiverse" (like Hickman) while others call it the "omniverse."
heck, some writers even use "the universe" to mean "everything." (I hate when this happens though)

Originally posted by i-bee-troll

And all of them died by the explosion that destroyed a few thousand universes.
facepalm

... more like hundreds of thousands of Molecule Men.

That aside ... yet, ALL universeS combined got stomped by 3 of them. dur

I know, I know, you're just reaching for that low-ball per usual,
but, again, instead, spouting clueless drivel is what you're doing here.

Yes, I know, you can't grasp the plot.

The OwenS are part of the BeyonderS power.

PIS? Indeed. But at-least there's an attempt at a plot influenced justification there.

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

... more like hundreds of thousands of Molecule Men.

That aside ... yet, ALL universeS combined got stomped by 3 of them. dur

Is that supposed to mean something?



Them dying in a blast that destroyed several thousand universes isn't lowballing. Its their only objective durability showing.

Try to keep up.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Even the whole Thor and Hyperion thing is considered way to much- we never see Thor or Hype do any damage to a single Beyonder I beg to differ. If you look close, you can clearly see chunks/pieces of the Beyonders piling up next to Thor and Hyperion as they're fighting:

http://i.imgur.com/tKfgBXB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/r78VXmj.jpg



http://i.imgur.com/zwLfQiZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SFKgapZ.jpg




So they definitely managed to damage several Beyonders before they fell.

But at the same time, we saw earlier in the issue that even if it looks like damage it might do nothing, like when Thor threw fake-Mjolnir through one of their heads and it just reformed instantly without inconveniencing it.

...But in the same issue we also saw that Beyonders *can* be permanently destroyed. Starbrand killed one with a planet-level explosion, for example.

Either way, the fact that hundreds/thousands of Beyonders couldn't just snap their fingers and erase Thor & Hype from existence is what should *really* be taken away from that scene...

Size of an explosion does not equate power. This should be basic

I always took it that the beyonders varied like the gods, some are abstract level ,some below.
However either way,taking all their feats,the Thor and hyperion is an anomaly.

I'm not talking about size of the blast. I'm talking about what Starbrand himself said his "unleashed" energy had the power to destroy...

Here Kevin states the power he released when he detonated and killed a Beyonder was enough to "protect or destroy A WORLD":
http://i.imgur.com/wBR165h.jpg

On the subsequent page Kevin reiterates that if he detonates again, the EARTH will be destroyed:
http://i.imgur.com/c8PXkkx.jpg


The Starbrand's planet-level power was reiterated yet AGAIN in the very same issue:
http://i.imgur.com/7NaCjVn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mm0p6Ln.jpg
"Last: reabsorb all that Starbrand energy... So that I don't blow up THE WORLD!"


The Starbrand = a planetary force... And that planetary force outright killed a Beyonder.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ivory Kings stomp.

This.

1 Ivory King is enough to godstomp.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not talking about size of the blast. I'm talking about what Starbrand himself said his "unleashed" energy had the power to destroy...

Here Kevin states the power he released when he detonated and killed a Beyonder was enough to "protect or destroy A WORLD":
http://i.imgur.com/wBR165h.jpg

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the two Beyonders that confronted Thor/Hyperion/Starbrand the same Beyonders that just got through stomping the Celestial race, abstracts, and multiversal LT?

Planetary force FTMFW!!!!!!!!!!!

*Hence the extreme highs and extreme lows that were mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
This.

1 Ivory King is enough to godstomp. Am is overrated.

wait a minute, the beyonders....who laid out The Living Tribunal like Tarver did Roy Jones got whoop by Thor and Hyperion?! There has to be some context behind that one...

Originally posted by dynamix
wait a minute, the beyonders....who laid out The Living Tribunal like Tarver did Roy Jones got whoop by Thor and Hyperion?! There has to be some context behind that one...
Nope, it's worse than that.

Two of the three Beyonders that killed off the entire Celestial race, the abstracts, and the LT faced off vs Thor/Hyperion/Starbrand/Abyss/Ex Nihilo. Thor and Hyperion did nothing worth mentioning. Abyss/Ex Nihilo and their minions took out one Beyonder. Starbrand took out the other.

After that a rift opens up and HORDES of Beyonders stream through it. Thor and Hyperion are seen fighting them till they get overwhelmed.

Peak COIE AM would wreck the Beyonders.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope, it's worse than that.

Two of the three Beyonders that killed off the entire Celestial race, the abstracts, and the LT faced off vs Thor/Hyperion/Starbrand/Abyss/Ex Nihilo. Thor and Hyperion did nothing worth mentioning. Abyss/Ex Nihilo and their minions took out one Beyonder. Starbrand took out the other.

After that a rift opens up and HORDES of Beyonders stream through it. Thor and Hyperion are seen fighting them till they get overwhelmed.

Peak COIE AM would wreck the Beyonders. AM would swat them like flies

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope, it's worse than that.

Two of the three Beyonders that killed off the entire Celestial race, the abstracts, and the LT faced off vs Thor/Hyperion/Starbrand/Abyss/Ex Nihilo. Thor and Hyperion did nothing worth mentioning. Abyss/Ex Nihilo and their minions took out one Beyonder. Starbrand took out the other.

After that a rift opens up and HORDES of Beyonders stream through it. Thor and Hyperion are seen fighting them till they get overwhelmed.

Peak COIE AM would wreck the Beyonders.
How do you know its the exact same?

Originally posted by iceman24567
AM would swat them like flies How did he fare against Supergirl or the Flash ? Actually cite evidence to support your silly little claims. Are you capable ?

Originally posted by Genii96
How do you know its the exact same?
I don't understand the question. How do I know it's the exact same what?

Originally posted by zopzop
I don't understand the question. How do I know it's the exact same what? He must mean the Beyonders may not be the same

Originally posted by iceman24567
AM would swat them like flies


AM would end up face down and spread eagle. They took out the living Tribunal much less his week ass.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope, it's worse than that.

Two of the three Beyonders that killed off the entire Celestial race, the abstracts, and the LT faced off vs Thor/Hyperion/Starbrand/Abyss/Ex Nihilo. Thor and Hyperion did nothing worth mentioning. Abyss/Ex Nihilo and their minions took out one Beyonder. Starbrand took out the other.

After that a rift opens up and HORDES of Beyonders stream through it. Thor and Hyperion are seen fighting them till they get overwhelmed.

Peak COIE AM would wreck the Beyonders.


But Thor and Hyperion didn't take out any of them. How does any of this support a AM win.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
AM would end up face down and spread eagle. They took out the living Tribunal much less his week ass. Then lost to the Star Brand and the twins who arent even skyfather level Im sure AM would slaughter those three then move on to spite stomping the Ivory Kings

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
But Thor and Hyperion didn't take out any of them. How does any of this support a AM win.
That's the thing, characters Thor and Hyperion level took out TWO of the THREE Beyonders that slaughtered the abstracts.

Then to add insult to injury, LEGIONS of Beyonders failed to instantly take down Thor and Hyperion. Even if Thor and Hyperion didn't do any lasting damage, they held out against a SH|T ton of them.

Thor, Abyss, Ex Nihilo, Starbrand, Hyperion, these are HERALD level beings. This team would lose to Thanos or Odin.

The lowest showings COIE Monitor had were against Supergirl (a PRE CRISIS KRYPTONIAN, google the stupid crap they've done on panel) and Flash (this dude moved so fast he busted out of DC and entered Marvel continuity in an issue of Quasar). Also keep in mind this wasn't peak COIE AM who forced a DC reset.

Originally posted by zopzop
That's the thing, characters Thor and Hyperion level took out TWO of the THREE Beyonders that slaughtered the abstracts.

Then to add insult to injury, LEGIONS of Beyonders failed to instantly take down Thor and Hyperion. Even if Thor and Hyperion didn't do any lasting damage, they held out against a SH|T ton of them.

Thor, Abyss, Ex Nihilo, Starbrand, Hyperion, these are HERALD level beings. This team would lose to Thanos or Odin.

The lowest showings COIE Monitor had were against Supergirl (a PRE CRISIS KRYPTONIAN, google the stupid crap they've done on panel) and Flash (this dude moved so fast he busted out of DC and entered Marvel continuity in an issue of Quasar). Also keep in mind this wasn't peak COIE AM who forced a DC reset. Exactly

Originally posted by quanchi112
Am is overrated.

Clearly.

Originally posted by zopzop
The lowest showings COIE Monitor had were against Supergirl (a PRE CRISIS KRYPTONIAN, google the stupid crap they've done on panel) and Flash (this dude moved so fast he busted out of DC and entered Marvel continuity in an issue of Quasar). Also keep in mind this wasn't peak COIE AM who forced a DC reset. Like you said: that wasn't peak AM, who became no less than 2x more powerful after he absorbed the anti-matter universe(which, like I mentioned earlier, actually contained a multiverse-worth of energy.)

Even Spectre, who was amped so heavily that he was implied to be > the Presence, barely managed to overcome peak AM. Heck, an argument could be made that AM wasn't even at his peak when Spectre entered the fray, as AM had used the bulk of his power traveling to the dawn of time(a gargantuan feat that was rather unheard of back then.)

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Clearly. Its kind of amusing to see the lengths these posters will go to.

Originally posted by zopzop
Nope, it's worse than that.

Two of the three Beyonders that killed off the entire Celestial race, the abstracts, and the LT faced off vs Thor/Hyperion/Starbrand/Abyss/Ex Nihilo. Thor and Hyperion did nothing worth mentioning. Abyss/Ex Nihilo and their minions took out one Beyonder. Starbrand took out the other.

After that a rift opens up and HORDES of Beyonders stream through it. Thor and Hyperion are seen fighting them till they get overwhelmed.

Peak COIE AM would wreck the Beyonders.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
AM would end up face down and spread eagle. They took out the living Tribunal much less his week ass.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like you said: that wasn't peak AM, who became no less than 2x more powerful after he absorbed the anti-matter universe(which, like I mentioned earlier, actually contained a multiverse-worth of energy.)

Even Spectre, who was amped so heavily that he was implied to be > the Presence, barely managed to overcome peak AM. Heck, an argument could be made that AM wasn't even at his peak when Spectre entered the fray, as AM had used the bulk of his power traveling to the dawn of time(a gargantuan feat that was rather unheard of back then.) AM at his peak was a different animal

Originally posted by iceman24567
Then lost to the Star Brand and the twins who arent even skyfather level Im sure AM would slaughter those three then move on to spite stomping the Ivory Kings

Those are specifically stated to be manifestations. Thus, you can't conclude that they are as powerful as the three who fight the cosmics:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jdgEIUjislg/VRMCtJtbGFI/AAAAAAAJGvs/Xzp1ncbrWZg/s1600/p20_11%2Bcopy.jpg

Peak AM is drained by Dr. Light and defeated by the Bronze Age heroes. Bronze Age Kryptonians are comparable modern Kryptonians.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like you said: that wasn't peak AM, who became no less than 2x more powerful after he absorbed the anti-matter universe(which, like I mentioned earlier, actually contained a multiverse-worth of energy.)

Even Spectre, who was amped so heavily that he was implied to be > the Presence, barely managed to overcome peak AM. Heck, an argument could be made that AM wasn't even at his peak when Spectre entered the fray, as AM had used the bulk of his power traveling to the dawn of time(a gargantuan feat that was rather unheard of back then.)

Spectre is not implied to be greater than Presence.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Spectre is not implied to be greater than Presence.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Spectre is not implied to be greater than Presence. So what do you think this scene was meant to imply?:
http://i.imgur.com/t7pEbVp.jpg

Spectre starts amping himself with all that extra power, and all of the sudden begins seeing "concepts undreamt of even by his master." The implication seems clear to me. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
So what do you think this scene was meant to imply?:
http://i.imgur.com/t7pEbVp.jpg

Spectre starts amping himself with all that extra power, and all of the sudden begins seeing "concepts undreamt of even by his master." The implication seems clear to me. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
So what do you think this scene was meant to imply?:
http://i.imgur.com/t7pEbVp.jpg

Spectre starts amping himself with all that extra power, and all of the sudden begins seeing "concepts undreamt of even by his master." The implication seems clear to me. /shrug

The implication may be clear, but it is by definition ridiculous.

Totally agree there.

Originally posted by Galan007
So what do you think this scene was meant to imply?:
http://i.imgur.com/t7pEbVp.jpg

Spectre starts amping himself with all that extra power, and all of the sudden begins seeing "concepts undreamt of even by his master." The implication seems clear to me. /shrug

Where do you get that he is amping himself with that power? He is being assaulted by that power; destroyed by it. He is trying to resist it stating that he needs more of the power than what he is getting from the mystics to resist it. It's causing him to scream in pain and see visions neither he nor the Presence have ever seen. It states that the energy is funneling through him, not being absorbed by him. He is eventually overwhelmed by it and left in a coma. It's more than apparent that the release of the creation energies prevents Spectre from winning. It doesn't aid him in winning. It is neither stated nor implied that he is being amped by that energy. He is doing far better before the creation energy is released.

You misinterpreted what actually happened

Eh, what? The mages present(one of whom was Thunderbolt, a 5D being) were giving their energy to Spectre, because his base power was not enough to defeat AM.

Did you even read the story?

Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, what? The mages present(one of whom was Thunderbolt, a 5D being) were giving their energy to Spectre, because his base power was not enough to defeat AM.

Did you even read the story?

I sure did, did you?

Exactly what part of my post are you contradicting here? I know that they are empowering him so that he can defeat AM. What does that have to do with the notion of Spectre being implied to be more powerful than The Presence?

Nice switching of the goalposts, lol. You clearly had no idea what was happening in that scene until I told you what was happening. srsly

Anyway, I already mentioned/posted said implication in my initial response to you. No reason to mention it again.

Originally posted by Galan007
Nice switching of the goalposts, lol. You clearly had no idea what was happening in that scene until I told you what was happening. srsly

Anyway, I already mentioned/posted said implication in my initial response to you. No reason to mention it again.

No, you're projecting. I said

"He is trying to resist it stating that he needs more of the power he is getting from the MYSTICS to resist it".

We are discussing the Creation Energies and your implication that Spectre is being powered by the Creation Energies. We were not debating whether or not he was being powered by the mages. That is you switching the goalposts. I have the tpb. Did you read it?

Yes, you posted something, but it was not any implication outside the one you created.

Originally posted by iceman24567
You misinterpreted what actually happened

No need to provide so many details explaining my misrepresentation.

Holy shit. facepalm

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html

Originally posted by Galan007
Holy shit. facepalm Wow feces seems to be the only thing on your mind lately i think you need help

F*ck your intervention.

Originally posted by Galan007
So what do you think this scene was meant to imply?:
http://i.imgur.com/t7pEbVp.jpg

Spectre starts amping himself with all that extra power, and all of the sudden begins seeing "concepts undreamt of even by his master." The implication seems clear to me. /shrug
His master was The Voice then. It wasn't until Zero Hour that Spectre was retconned in being the Wrath of God.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
Those are specifically stated to be manifestations. Thus, you can't conclude that they are as powerful as the three who fight the cosmics:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jdgEIUjislg/VRMCtJtbGFI/AAAAAAAJGvs/Xzp1ncbrWZg/s1600/p20_11%2Bcopy.jpg

Peak AM is drained by Dr. Light and defeated by the Bronze Age heroes. Bronze Age Kryptonians are comparable modern Kryptonians.

Lol. The manifestations contain the very essence of the Beyonders....pure Beyonder, in other words,

Originally posted by abhilegend
Concession accepted.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. The manifestations contain the very essence of the Beyonders....pure Beyonder, in other words,

By your logic, Silver Surfer should be as powerful as Galactus since both contain pure Power Cosmic. By your logic, each member of the pre-Annihilation Nova Corps should be just as powerful as full Nova Force Richard Rider since all contain pure Nova Force. By your logic, Hal Jordan becomes no more powerful even after absorbing the full power battery since he contains pure GL power before and after.

Each of the Phoenix Five are established as being 1/5 as powerful as a single bearer of the Phoenix Force despite each containing pure Phoenix Force.

All throughout comicbook history, a power source divided between a certain number of individuals is divided in power level by that very number. Hundreds, if not thousands of those same Beyonder manifestations are sent to attack Thor and Hyperion. Do you seriously think that each of those hundreds or thousands are equal in power to each of the three multiverse destroyers? LMAO!

I thought the Beyonders held limitless power?

Infinity divided by a thousand is still...infinity.

The PC has limits, as does the Nova Force, as does the GLC, as does the P5.

Not to mention, the GLC, Nova Force and P5 are heavily dependent on the wielders. If you have proof that the Beyonders were limited, then post it, by all means.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
By your logic, Silver Surfer should be as powerful as Galactus since both contain pure Power Cosmic. By your logic, each member of the pre-Annihilation Nova Corps should be just as powerful as full Nova Force Richard Rider since all contain pure Nova Force. By your logic, Hal Jordan becomes no more powerful even after absorbing the full power battery since he contains pure GL power before and after.

Each of the Phoenix Five are established as being 1/5 as powerful as a single bearer of the Phoenix Force despite each containing pure Phoenix Force.

All throughout comicbook history, a power source divided between a certain number of individuals is divided in power level by that very number. Hundreds, if not thousands of those same Beyonder manifestations are sent to attack Thor and Hyperion. Do you seriously think that each of those hundreds or thousands are equal in power to each of the three multiverse destroyers? LMAO!

I completely agree with you Bro

So Beyonders AREN'T infinite in power?

Originally posted by TheHulkster
By your logic, Silver Surfer should be as powerful as Galactus since both contain pure Power Cosmic. By your logic, each member of the pre-Annihilation Nova Corps should be just as powerful as full Nova Force Richard Rider since all contain pure Nova Force. By your logic, Hal Jordan becomes no more powerful even after absorbing the full power battery since he contains pure GL power before and after.

Each of the Phoenix Five are established as being 1/5 as powerful as a single bearer of the Phoenix Force despite each containing pure Phoenix Force.

All throughout comicbook history, a power source divided between a certain number of individuals is divided in power level by that very number. Hundreds, if not thousands of those same Beyonder manifestations are sent to attack Thor and Hyperion. Do you seriously think that each of those hundreds or thousands are equal in power to each of the three multiverse destroyers? LMAO!
Who said that those Beyonders were manifestations of a single Beyonder as you are implying?

They were different and were a race of Beyonders.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Considering it's the entire race, I'd side with the Beyonders here.

I mean yeah two were beaten by Starbrand explosion and weird Ex-Nihili/Abyss shenanigans, but the fact remains that there were thousands of Beyonders, and it only took three to kill the LT, who is generally considered = COIE AM

Even the whole Thor and Hyperion thing is considered way to much- we never see Thor or Hype do any damage to a single Beyonder, and it's clear they swarmed out on mass because they were angry, not because they were all needed to deal with them.

So yeah, COIE AM is no joke and would do well but against their entire race would probably lose.

Yep. One of the Beyonders while holding back almost killed Thor and Hyperion with ease. People put way to much stock into that showing.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought the Beyonders held limitless power?

Infinity divided by a thousand is still...infinity.

The PC has limits, as does the Nova Force, as does the GLC, as does the P5.

Not to mention, the GLC, Nova Force and P5 are heavily dependent on the wielders. If you have proof that the Beyonders were limited, then post it, by all means.

The PC is actually infinite as the scan below shows. This is a good example of how one can be limited despite channeling power from an infinite power source.

http://static8.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/14/140903/4572028-906.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Yep. One of the Beyonders while holding back almost killed Thor and Hyperion with ease. People put way to much stock into that showing.

A lot of stock is placed, because it is literally 50% of their showings, lol.

If out of 100 appearances of Hulk, 50 showed him able to fly....you'd use it, no?

You kidding? If Hulk flew one time out of a thousand showings, carver would act like it's a standard ability for him.

Hulk flew three-four times in 5-6 thousand showings, correct?

So I think we might actually be closer to pinpointing Carter's retardedness.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who said that those Beyonders were manifestations of a single Beyonder as you are implying?

They were different and were a race of Beyonders.

I didn't imply that they are manifestations of one Beyonder. Where do you get that from? The scan I posted describes the manifestations as "solid states containing their very essence". "Their" is plural, so clearly they are manifestations of more than one.

On the other hand, "essence" is singular and implies that the Beyonders together possess a single essence and that essence continues to exist in Secret Wars as power channeled through Reece to Doom and now as the power Reece, Reed, Franklin and Sue are using to rebuild the multiverse.

The Beyonder manifestations that fight Thor and Hype are probably similar to what Imperiex Probes are to Imperiex. The probes contain small amounts of Imperiex Prime's essence and they refer to themselves as Imperiex IIRC (I don't think that Imperiex Prime ever uses "Prime" to refer to himself). But none of the probes are as powerful as Imperiex Prime. So one cannot sit here and conclude that all Beyonder manifestations are equal nor that all are equal to the three multiverse destroyers that we see. The evidence overwhelmingly supports that they are not equal.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
I didn't imply that they are manifestations of one Beyonder. Where do you get that from? The scan I posted describes the manifestations as "solid states containing their very essence". "Their" is plural, so clearly they are manifestations of more than one.


This is like you don't even know what you are trying to say.

Yes, the whole race of Beyonders. There is no single essence of Beyonders and it's never implied.



That's some made up bullshit. Again. It's made clear that These were the same Beyonders who killed LT.

http://postimg.org/image/3q3k7qv4b/

The artist changed their forms in the next comic but they are literally the same Beyonders as shown here.

Originally posted by carver9
Yep. One of the Beyonders while holding back almost killed Thor and Hyperion with ease. People put way to much stock into that showing.
Says the guy who would bring it up every time had the Hulk been involved.

Maybe you all didn't read my statement right. Let me repeat. ONE Beyonder STOMPED both Thor and Hyperion with ease. Nearly squeezed out Hyperion eyes while casually walking through his eye blast and snatched Thor arm off casually and was nearly about to kill him until he was saved. What does this tell us? This tells us that a Beyonder is far above both Hyperion and Thor that the two are fodder and 2, you all ignored this and put stock into a showing that is irrelevant. I hope you all understand/understood that. If not, let me know and I'll reword it for ya. Hulk stomps.

Lmao carvers drunk, again.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Lmao carvers drunk, again.

Yep, I am.

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is like you don't even know what you are trying to say.

I know exactly what I'm saying. You clearly don't.



It's flat out stated. "Their essence".



Nope. Deodato drew them based on what they are stated to be in the book. "Physical manifestations". The notion of a single panel visualization of Owen's oracling taking precedence over the images of the following issue that actually tells the story of the encounter is absurd. Plus, if you are going on art making it clear who someone is, then the Beyonders in the link you posted actually look noticeably different from the ones who fight LT.

Plus, didn't you stated on the other board that dialogue takes precedence over art?

Abhi caught in another double standard.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
Lmao carvers drunk, again.

Originally posted by carver9
Yep, I am. good for you, enjoy yourself.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
I know exactly what I'm saying. You clearly don't.

"No you" isn't a response.





Yes, "Their." Not "His". Its plural for illiterates like you.





Haha, that's simply bullshit. But you are quite adapt in throwing meaningless shit with zero proof.



No, they don't.



Yes, and its made clear that these are the same beyonders. Where is it that they are stated to be different?

Why people waste their energy answering to Abhi is beyond me...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Again. It's made clear that These were the same Beyonders who killed LT.

http://postimg.org/image/3q3k7qv4b/

The artist changed their forms in the next comic but they are literally the same Beyonders as shown here. Originally posted by TheHulkster
Nope. Yes.

At the end of New Avengers #31 we see the Beyonders confronting Thor, Hyperion, Starbrand, etc. on the last chunk of land in the voidspace:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169337_New_Avengers_2013-_031-022.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169340_New_Avengers_2013-_031-023.jpg

New Avengers #32 is an immediate continuation of the above -- the Beyonders are simply drawn differently:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169346_New_Avengers_2013-_032-008.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169347_New_Avengers_2013-_032-009.jpg

Hell, the "previously in..." page of New Avengers #32 corroborates this as well:
http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/30169447_New_Avengers_2013-_032-001.jpg


So again: the Beyonders who killed the cosmic hierarchy are the EXACT SAME Beyonders who were ultimately killed by Ex Nihilo and Starbrand. Stupid as it may be, this is irrefutable fact.

^^ We will have to dismiss one or the other, cause this is truly senseless brother G.

------------------------------------------------------

We can't blame the BeyonderS for forced PIS/CIS to make a story work on Hickman's part.

That Thor Hyperion scene is truly retarded. ONE Beyonder was stomping both Thor and Hyperion. ONE!

That slender Beyonder was taking its sweet time, Thor and Hyperion were a joke next to it.

The other boxy-shaped Beyonder jobbed imo with Abyss/Ex cause it just stood there waiting for the consequence.

http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117171_B1.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117172_B2.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117173_B3.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117174_B4.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117176_B5.jpg
http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117177_B6.jpghttp://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117178_B7.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117179_B8.jpg http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117181_B9.jpghttp://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/24117182_B10.jpg

Notice Thor and Hyperion were inevitably going to die here had it not been for the Starbrand explosion.

How the hell do these two (Thor/Hyperion) beat up,
and were about to die at the hands of ONE Beyonder, ... surviving pass "go" vs hundreds?"

If yall don't see the PIS/CIS here ... I don't know what to say.

Also ...

http://s3d3.turboimg.net/t1/24403238_nothing.jpg

Those "physical forms" are just shells containing their essence.

Against the cosmics there wasn't any jobbing, just attacking.
While against the heroes, they're boasting during the fight, taking their time,
the boxed-shaped Beyonder did nothing to Ex/Nihilo, it just stood there waiting to get affected:

http://s3d2.turboimg.net/t/24403739_B4.jpg

... 'no, no please, be my guest and warp the shit out of me while I stand here transfixed by your efforts'

-------------------------

And remember Owen needed to draw them out of the Beyond Realm before attacking. Interesting.

When they spoke from withIN the Beyond Realm, Hickman portrays them as God imo. The lettering and all.

I wonder.


Owen needing to draw them out is the smoking gun imo.

They did seem more ... majestic, when speaking from within the Beyond Realm, imo:

http://s3d1.turboimg.net/t/24403854_1.jpg

The BeyonderS have been around since 1980, grant it by statements only,
but by 1988, we got a small taste of an actual Beyonder (from the race) on panel, 25 years ago.

The 'High Evolutionary' once travelled to a distant part of 616
where the BeyonderS had a museum of Planets they played with,
and actually got a glimpse of one of the BeyonderS. (well, most of an arm anyway)



It also states that the experience of witnessing this Beyonder's arm made him go insane!

It's the only depiction we eve saw, until Hickman's mind came into play.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The High Evolutionary "witnesses a sight that renders him speechless"

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15290218_BeyonderS_awesome2.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The H.E. is pretty powerful,
but more importantly is how much he knows
and how much he's seen in the Cosmos, ... and that's practically everything.

Anyway, he goes insane from realizing how grand the BeyonderS are, and immediately decides to kill himself:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15290219_BeyonderS_awesome3.jpg


He can't kill himself, so he succeeds by having the Hulk bash him out of his armor:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------


In the end, his "god-like" techno-armor reforms him completely, and he regains his sanity.

The cool thing here is, the H.E. considers the BeyonderS the pinnacle of the Cosmos,
and uses them as a reference point to what Mankind has to surpass via evolution to rule the Cosmos.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15290221_BeyonderS_awesome5.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The H.E. isn't just a human mind btw. He's evolved far beyond humanity.

The H.E. only saw an arm of a Beyonder,
and it was enough to drive him insane to the point of killing himself.

I think the writer was trying to make a point here you feel me?

Especially how he points out that the H.E. seen all kinds of cosmic crazy
and taken it in stride ... until he sees this.

I also don't think it was just the,
seemingly lightyears spanning sized arm that drove him mad,
it was actually the realization of how far more grandiose the BeyonderS were next to him.

The only difference is when they exit their Realm, their forms are vulnerable to some degree.

But to what degree is the clashing question?

Why did 3 survive (and seemingly unscathed at the end) & killed Eternity/Infinity, all Celestials and LT?
To then be affected at all by less than motes in comparison to the cosmic hierarchy?
... haha, with absolutely no logical explanation for it by Hickman btw.

... We only have one option here imo, disregard the necessary PIS to move the story forward.

Because we all know after killing the LT, who came as the infinite Multiverse embodied,
Hickman caught himself in a corner with no sensible way to conclude this, ...
... out comes the writing made with a pen dipped in yellow nasty.

-------------------------------------------------

We have to take the Beyonders' (as the race in the Beyond Realm)
historical data and mesh it as best as possible with Hickman's portrayals,
and try and make the best of it I guess.
Like I said, imo, Beyonders inside the Beyond Realm are in a different level than any who come out.

This is best expressed in Kubik and Kosmos' experience
when they travelled outside "all there is" .. they went "Beyond."

BeyonderS were the final stage, the highest order, the most vast, that Kubik and Kosmos came across:
(mind you, they passed by the LT who existed in all multiverses"

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/12007360_BY5-3.jpg
http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12007356_BY5-2.jpg

Kubik & Kosmos themselves transcended ...
... and Eternity (which represented everything in that story) "dwindled into insignificance" before them.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Imo, even in Hickman's world this hasn't changed much I think. I said this before:

Owen needing to draw them out says it all imo.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ We will have to dismiss one or the other, cause this is truly senseless brother G. We can't just dismiss canon evidence -- especially considering that we are dealing with the exact same Beyonders in both scenes.

For whatever reason Hickman gave them very high showings... And very low showings. As I mentioned in my first post: this makes it exceedingly difficult to figure out an 'average' for them, given that a specific reason was never given as to why their showings varied so...

Sucks, but it is what it is.

Also, thread specifically refers to Ivory Kings.
So only the Beyonders we have seen in Hickman's run, nothing more.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/23992/4579745-brevoortformspringhyperionandthorvsbeyonders.jpg

Cool.

Earth based heroes are Beyonder Kryptonite

Spiderman could solo the Ivory Kings.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.

Earth based heroes are Beyonder Kryptonite

Spiderman could solo the Ivory Kings.

Batman wins with his Everyone-Repellent.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Batman wins with his Everyone-Repellent.

Pretty much.

In any case, writer interviews are inadmissible here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.

Earth based heroes are Beyonder Kryptonite

Spiderman could solo the Ivory Kings.

Also, Ex Nihilo isn't an earth-based hero, but he(and the Nihilii) still killed a Beyonder.

Originally posted by Galan007


Also, Ex Nihilo isn't an earth-based hero, but he(and the Nihilii) still killed a Beyonder.

Crap, I obviously misread the writer interview.

Brevoort obv meant that characters with only one face are the Beyonders Kryptonite. Any more, and the reverse is true.

Relying on writer interviews is fun!!!

Yes, these are the facts... Accept them! vegetajv2

Also, it confirms the Ivory Kings are the same ones that fought the LT, and moreover, that they died.

Otherwise, if they were different or diminished in any way, Bwould have said so.

Good scan

Originally posted by Galan007

Also, Ex Nihilo isn't an earth-based hero, but he(and the Nihilii) still killed a Beyonder.
I only saw them warp that Beyonder's shell into a tree.

That was the funniest Beyonder of all. It did nothing, absolutely nothing to defend or attack.

But it did enjoy just standing there, like a lump on a log, waiting to get warped.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I only saw them warp that Beyonder's shell into a tree.

That was the funniest Beyonder of all. It did nothing, absolutely nothing to defend or attack.

But it did enjoy just standing there, like a lump on a log, waiting to get warped. The Ex Nihilii were strongly implied to have killed that Beyonder by transmuting it into a tree. Hence the remaining Beyonder's statement(s) immediately after it happened:
http://i.imgur.com/a02UHQm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/gae8DbW.jpg
"What have you done? Do you have any idea of... The significance of us? The cost of our life compared to your own?"

What I find hilarious is that planetary level explosion took out a Beyonder. Imagine if he detonated when the hundreds of Beyonders were pouring out the portal. He could have massacred dozens or more of them!

That's definitely a worse showing. At least the Ex Nihilii thing was left ambiguous, whereas it was reiterated multiple times that Starbrand's detonation was planet-level.

Originally posted by RealityWarper
Why people waste their energy answering to Abhi is beyond me...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.

Earth based heroes are Beyonder Kryptonite

Spiderman could solo the Ivory Kings.

Hahahah

?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes.

At the end of New Avengers #31 we see the Beyonders confronting Thor, Hyperion, Starbrand, etc. on the last chunk of land in the voidspace:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169337_New_Avengers_2013-_031-022.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169340_New_Avengers_2013-_031-023.jpg

New Avengers #32 is an immediate continuation of the above -- the Beyonders are simply drawn differently:
http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169346_New_Avengers_2013-_032-008.jpg http://s6d2.turboimg.net/t1/30169347_New_Avengers_2013-_032-009.jpg

Hell, the "previously in..." page of New Avengers #32 corroborates this as well:
http://s6d6.turboimg.net/t1/30169447_New_Avengers_2013-_032-001.jpg


So again: the Beyonders who killed the cosmic hierarchy are the EXACT SAME Beyonders who were ultimately killed by Ex Nihilo and Starbrand. Stupid as it may be, this is irrefutable fact.

It's extremely refutable if for no more reason that the look totally different. Add the dialogue stating them to be manifestations; shells containing Beyonder essence. Where is the "irrefutable fact" shown?

There's also writer interview...

Originally posted by TheHulkster
It's extremely refutable if for no more reason that the look totally different. Add the dialogue stating them to be manifestations; shells containing Beyonder essence. Where is the "irrefutable fact" shown? The comics are depicting the EXACT SAME SCENE. The artists simply opted to illustrate the Beyonders differently in the latter scene... This does not change the fact that we are dealing with the EXACT SAME Beyonders, however. The only way it isn't irrefutable is if you completely ignore this glaring fact.


Also, where is this notion coming from that the Beyonders were somehow weaker when they took on physical form? That was never stated anywhere. What *was* stated is that they were at their most 'malleable' when they acted as physical beings, but that certainly does not allude to their overall energy/power being diminished in any way/shape/form. Some people are trying really hard to try and ignore the Beyonders' low-end showings... You can't. none

There's also the fact that the entire race was destroyed by a blast/detonation that destroyed a few-hundred-thousand universes. Seems impressive at first glance, but when we remember that the multiverse in its totality contained infinite universes, a blast of that magnitude becomes utterly insignificant by comparison.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Cool.

Earth based heroes are Beyonder Kryptonite
The implication might just as well be that the Beyonders are Kryptonite to the Celestials and Abstract Entities.

Of course....but that implies they only beat the abstracts due to being their Knite.

Regardless, this is why we don't use writer interviews and random statement snippets as proof.

The Ivory Kings win! If you forgot the Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal and every other cosmic entity!!!! A feat the Anti Monitor never accomplished! If i remember well, the Spectre was able to cope with the Anti Montor, while the Three Ivory Kings DEFEATED the Living Tribunal. Now the Spectre isn't even near to the level of power of the LT. The LT is second to TOAA, so that places him in par with Lucifer and Michael, and since the spectre is below these two then OBVIOUSLY the Ivory Kings would Annihilate the Anti Monitor....The Ivory Kings win!!!