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Many of have complained how biased some CBR writers are for certain characters, this may be the craziest one of all with the One Above All listed at number 8, discuss.

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-watchmen-dr-manhattan-battle/

Black Spectre

King Thor

Not funny, Mind

Queen Thor?

Wolverine

Originally posted by abhilegend
What has Tribunal, Doom or Oblivion done to believe they can beat Manhattan?

Supreme is fangirling marvel these days, god knows why

Like I do it for trolling, he legit thought Doom could beat Manhattan

Originally posted by steverules_2
Wolverine



https://comicbookandbeyond.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/13_X11.png

Claremont was so good on X-men.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Claremont was so good on X-men.

Chris Claremont is the X-Men http://images.killermovies.com/forums/icons/v2/icon12.gif

https://i.ibb.co/QjXLL3G/claremontverine.png

Manhattan was badass only in the world of powerless street level superheroes that would get trashed by Night Trasher.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Manhattan was badass only in the world of powerless street level superheroes that would get trashed by Night Trasher.

does that include guy gardner

CBR Silver Surfer

Originally posted by abhilegend
Claremont was so good on X-men.

What on panel showings does Manhatten have?

Having his name mispelled by Pope Carver IX.

I suppose the most impressive aspect of Manhattan's power comes in the way of secondary sources and whatnot.

-Mxy stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself.
-Superman reiterating that Manhattan > Mxy.
-Luthor stating that Manhattan was the most powerful being he'd ever encountered.
-Manhattan's power being used to stalemate Perpetua.
etc.

As I've said before: if you take the above at face value, then the list of beings in Marvel's history who could conceivably defeat Manhattan is very short.

And if we don't, then he loses to Bentley's Batroc

Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose the most impressive aspect of Manhattan's power comes in the way of secondary sources and whatnot.

-Mxy stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself.
-Superman reiterating that Manhattan > Mxy.
-Luthor stating that Manhattan was the most powerful being he'd ever encountered.
-Manhattan's power being used to stalemate Perpetua.
etc.

As I've said before: if you take the above at face value, then the list of beings in Marvel's history who could conceivably defeat Manhattan is very short.

This is basically the answer I was expecting. He doesn't have any fts so why are we giving him the edge here? I don't think using statements is a way of debating. If so, I have a list of statement fts I need to start posting.

Never understood the hesitance towards using statements or scaling as evidence in the comics debating community.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Never understood the hesitance towards using statements or scaling as evidence in the comics debating community.

Lots of hyperbole and different creative teams disagreeing with each other.

In the end, what really matters is what those characters have actually done on panel.

Originally posted by carver9
This is basically the answer I was expecting. He doesn't have any fts so why are we giving him the edge here? I don't think using statements is a way of debating. If so, I have a list of statement fts I need to start posting.

Carver and flipflopping on statements; name a more iconic duo.

Originally posted by lawest9
Many of have complained how biased some CBR writers are for certain characters, this may be the craziest one of all with the One Above All listed at number 8, discuss.

https://www.cbr.com/marvel-watchmen-dr-manhattan-battle/


Starfox.


No, really. He disabled Pee Retcon Beyonder with his voice, and IG Thanos inhibited his power. If emotional control doesn't get a saving throw even for high end abstract level beings, an wooden plank like Dr. Manhattan wouldn't know what to do if forced to feel something.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Carver and flipflopping on statements; name a more iconic duo.

LMMFAO... the statements I am going to post, there will be no disputing it. None!!!

@Supremex,

Character A still need fts. Manhattan has done absolutely nothing, so what ways are we going to come up with him beating someone like Beyonder? I'm guessing you can say he can erase him from existence but then, all I need to ask is "show me him doing this, especially to someone as powerful as Beyonder". You won't be able to show me anything.

Originally posted by cdtm
Because it was repeated ad-nauseam that Martian Manhunter and Daxamites are more powerful than Superman.


That's why.

Just because one statement or a set of statements are contradicted by feats or other statements, does not mean that no statements can be used to draw connections when said statements are not contradicted. It�s called weighing the evidence.

In Manhattan's case, I don't see an issue with using statements, as nothing on panel explicitly contradicts them.

Mxy stated that Manhattan was more power than himself, and Superman reiterated this in following issues. Luthor then stated that Manhattan was above ALL beings that he had encountered up to that point(which would include Mxy.) Manhattan's power was then used to stalemate Perpetua. Etc.

Personally, I take those statements as fact. And since there are only a scant few characters in Marvel that I'd place =/> Mxy, there are even less that I'd put above Manhattan.

This goes back to the Aquarian/Goku thread.

If Cyclops has statements saying he can bust moons apart (Carver's example), do we accept it? No. Why? Because we have plenty of statements proving otherwise.

If Manhattan has statements saying XYZ, do we accept it? That depends.

If we have feats proving otherwise, then no.

If we have no feats proving otherwise.....why not?

Thus, the onus is on Carv/the person disputing the statement, to provide scans showing why the statement is false.

How is Manhattan beating Beyonder?

Originally posted by carver9
How is Manhattan beating Beyonder?

Time shenanigans, maybe?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This goes back to the Aquarian/Goku thread.

If Cyclops has statements saying he can bust moons apart (Carver's example), do we accept it? No. Why? Because we have plenty of statements proving otherwise.

If Manhattan has statements saying XYZ, do we accept it? That depends.

If we have feats proving otherwise, then no.

If we have no feats proving otherwise.....why not?

Thus, the onus is on Carv/the person disputing the statement, to provide scans showing why the statement is false.

Superman claimed Bibbo could knock him out without him needing to fake it. We have no proof Bibbo can't knock Superman out, so it must be true.


Essentially your logic here.


Or Spidey compared Cap's punch to an A-bomb. Never tried to punch a town, so we can't assume he can't, amiright?

Concerning the statements and feats argument. I think this, like many others, is a case by case situation.

For example, if you say statements combined with feats can be accepted, then I can tell you by that logic, Superman has infinite speed(1.https://ibb.co/mvwwLxp 2.https://imgur.com/a/nOeX9), which we know that definitely isnt true

Only considering feats? As many of us pointed out, TOAA, Living Tribunal, The Presence etc, all of them dont have lifting feats that can match Batman's. But does that mean Batman will beat them in a lifting contest? Hell,no

Only considering statements?..... I mean, you have Superman is the most powerful being in the Omniverse..........

All in all, I think look at the character that we argue established history is a relatively good way to gauge.

I dont think Deathstroke has nanosecond level speed or is a legitimate speedster despite some statements and feats supporting that. Because we know this character history, we know that he, by all odds, isnt a speedster like Wonder Woman or Flash

On the other hand, we dont need combat feats for beings, lets say, Imperiex Prime. I mean, I dont think anyone would honestly argue Flash will make Imperiex Prime a statue and use Multiverse-Shattering energy to punch him down. Because we know that Imperiex Prime isnt a character that requires these feats. His established history tells us we should treat him as somethig like TOAA, Living Tribunal, The Presence, not someone like Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern etc

Originally posted by Galan007
In Manhattan's case, I don't see an issue with using statements, as nothing on panel explicitly contradicts them.

Mxy stated that Manhattan was more power than himself, and Superman reiterated this in following issues. Luthor then stated that Manhattan was above ALL beings that he had encountered up to that point(which would include Mxy.) Manhattan's power was then used to stalemate Perpetua. Etc.

Personally, I take those statements as fact. And since there are only a scant few characters in Marvel that I'd place =/> Mxy, there are even less that I'd put above Manhattan.

Not only that, but Mxy specifically couldn't undo Manhattan's warping:

https://i.ibb.co/BcY2sL1/NBPJRpa.jpg

As for me, I wouldn't even say that I place a scant few above Mxy, maybe just ONE. And that's a maybe in a 'well functioning system' which Mxy is not too fond of, if you catch my drift.

I'd say 2, judging by Superboy Prime's fight with cosmic BWL proving him beating up Mxy wasn't necessarily PIS.

Counting elseworlds, Strange Visitor was definitely > Mxy. He could breach a dimension the latter could not.

cdtm can't read though, at least, I think he pretends to be like that. He doing his trolling for years now

it's pointless to even compare current marvel to dc as far as cosmic and abstract concerned

they are not on the same level anymore

dc is fully going crazy with their world building at this moment

marvel is focused more on storytelling at the moment

things could change in the future though

Originally posted by Galan007
I suppose the most impressive aspect of Manhattan's power comes in the way of secondary sources and whatnot.

-Mxy stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself.
-Superman reiterating that Manhattan > Mxy.
-Luthor stating that Manhattan was the most powerful being he'd ever encountered.
-Manhattan's power being used to stalemate Perpetua.
etc.

As I've said before: if you take the above at face value, then the list of beings in Marvel's history who could conceivably defeat Manhattan is very short.
Why do we need that when Manhattan destroyed and recreated everything with a wave of his hands?

https://i.postimg.cc/RWsHk8cv/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/nsXDpkkB/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/McgjTQP4/image.jpg

Unless you start lowballing like comicvine does, there's really not.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Unless you start lowballing like comicvine does, there's really not. Or like Carv does on those he is arguing against.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Unless you start lowballing like comicvine does, there's really not.

Unless you start ignoring scaling, statements, and the preponderance of evidence as being the optimal way to comparing characters, there really is.

Hmmm, I personally wouldnt consider The Hands as DC absolute top tier cosmics

After all, Perpetua is one, and the most fearsome one, of The Hands IIRC

Originally posted by lawest9
Or like Carv does on those he is arguing against.


Hush.

I thought you were talking the Hands as individuality....By this case, I dont see any on panel proof supporting a memeber in the Hands would decisively >>>>Perpetua(IOW, a member of the Hands has the powers that dwarf Perpetua by an order of magnitude)

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why do we need that when Manhattan destroyed and recreated everything with a wave of his hands?

https://i.postimg.cc/RWsHk8cv/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/nsXDpkkB/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/McgjTQP4/image.jpg

he only did that to the metaverse which is the main dc prime earth continuity, not the multiverse

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Unless you start ignoring scaling, statements, and the preponderance of evidence as being the optimal way to comparing characters, there really is.
Well not really. I'd like to see you try.

Originally posted by MrMind
he only did that to the metaverse which is the main dc prime earth continuity, not the multiverse
He ended everything. Multiverse started again with the metaverse.

Maybe the One-Above-All, but that fool was effectively defeated by Thanos at one point. Stupid writing.

Originally posted by Robtard
Maybe the One-Above-All, but that fool was effectively defeated by Thanos at one point. Stupid writing.

Well, not exactly defeated but out of TOAA's jurisdiction or some shit.

It's not stupid writing per se, it's just standard "Thanos writing", to be honest - Starlin always found a way to wank Thanos, private or public, no matter what.

Without Starlin, Thanos is just another Rhino waiting to get his ass whooped.

Thanos ended up "absorbing" the cosmics in that story line, no?

I consider that Thanos wanking to be bad writing.

Originally posted by MrMind
it's pointless to even compare current marvel to dc as far as cosmic and abstract concerned

they are not on the same level anymore

dc is fully going crazy with their world building at this moment

marvel is focused more on storytelling at the moment

things could change in the future though

I highly doubt Marvel will ever catch up.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Without Starlin, Thanos is just another Rhino waiting to get his ass whooped. Seriously.

Mxy IS considered DC's absolute top tier, along with A, Ultimator, etc...

While Mxy is very high tier, he is no longer the absolute top tier of the verse.

The Source/Light, the Great Darkness, The Hands, Manhattan, Perpetua, Darkest Knight, and arguably TEH/Mandrakk/Thought Robot are above Mxy (some of them by orders of magnitude).

Originally posted by Robtard
Thanos ended up "absorbing" the cosmics in that story line, no?

With the Astral Regulator.

It appeared so...

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e17221913f1a4c0c497bc5044a588f8

Unless TOAA played with him same as Beyonder played with Doom...

Originally posted by Robtard
I consider that Thanos wanking to be bad writing.

Well, then Thanos has no good stories

His best material happened under Starlin's pen... and it's always the same:

1) There must be "Infinity" in the title.

2) Thanos must outsmart and beat everyone, becoming the supreme power in the universe, ideally.

3) Only Thanos can beat Thanos.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
While Mxy is very high tier, he is no longer the absolute top tier of the verse.

The Source/Light, the Great Darkness, The Hands, Manhattan, Perpetua, Darkest Knight, and arguably TEH/Mandrakk/Thought Robot are above Mxy (some of them by orders of magnitude).

I wouldn't put Perpetua or Mandrakk above Mxy, IMO.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He ended everything. Multiverse started again with the metaverse.

that was no where stated

Originally posted by MrMind
that was no where stated
Do you even read bro

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I wouldn't put Perpetua or Mandrakk above Mxy, IMO.
It was pretty clear that Perpetua is above Mxy at the normal levels, not depowered
Keep in mind, for pretty much all her on panel showings are her being depowered

Mandrakk is definitely above but there is that weird little retcon

For all its faults, and there are many, the latest issue definitely cemented the Morrison cosmology and, if anything, made the characters there even more powerful, given how it expanded that cosmology and recontextualized what came after. Mandrakk is now not only the son of the Light but also the the Darkness -- and he is defined as the Absolute Enemy whose purpose is to bring the initial Darkness.

What I don't like is how it considers every Mandrakk as Dax Novu , even Rox Ogama, but it is what it is.

Originally posted by Senor Cage
I wouldn't put Perpetua or Mandrakk above Mxy, IMO.

Perpetua is a peer of Manhattan, arguably > Manhattan at her peak, who in turn scales significantly above Mxy. Furthermore, Perpetua has numerous ludicrous feats while in weakened/diminished states that measure up to pretty much any Mxy feat.

Mandrakk is a peer of Thought Robot and an avatar of the Great Darkness. I think he has a pretty good claim to being > Mxy.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do you even read bro

no, show scans if you are so sure

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
With the Astral Regulator.

It appeared so...

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e17221913f1a4c0c497bc5044a588f8

Unless TOAA played with him same as Beyonder played with Doom...



Well, then Thanos has no good stories

His best material happened under Starlin's pen... and it's always the same:

1) There must be "Infinity" in the title.

2) Thanos must outsmart and beat everyone, becoming the supreme power in the universe, ideally.

3) Only Thanos can beat Thanos.

Could be he/it did, as TOAA would have known what was going to happen before it happened.

Yeah, I'm not a huge Thanos fan, the writing is so much of the same.

LoL, yup

Originally posted by Robtard
Could be he/it did, as TOAA would have known what was going to happen before it happened.

Yeah, I'm not a huge Thanos fan, the writing is so much of the same.

LoL, yup

Thanos looks good by making everyone else dumb.

In the Heart of the Universe story, Doctor Doom was stupid enough to use a time machine on a time traveling abstract level being. Who of course was waiting in ambush, the obvious thing. Of course Thanos was the one to outwit him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
With the Astral Regulator.

It appeared so...

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e17221913f1a4c0c497bc5044a588f8

Unless TOAA played with him same as Beyonder played with Doom...



Well, then Thanos has no good stories

His best material happened under Starlin's pen... and it's always the same:

1) There must be "Infinity" in the title.

2) Thanos must outsmart and beat everyone, becoming the supreme power in the universe, ideally.

3) Only Thanos can beat Thanos.

Starlin did a lot of acid. He admitted to it in Star Reach, by having his Jim Starlin character drop acid in an elevator.

Originally posted by cdtm
Starlin did a lot of acid. He admitted to it in Star Reach, by having his Jim Starlin character drop acid in an elevator.

Grant Morrison took just the right amount of acid; Jim Starlin took too much acid.

And Moore took enough to kill a country.

One thing I liked about the issue, despite "GEB behind everything" being a shit plot device -- is that it confirmed the birth of the DC Multiverse has nothing to do with Perpetua, Synnar or whatever -- they're just stories, one out of many, of how everything was created.

The DC Multiverse is born out of the same thing that drives all stories -- conflict. Conflict between the light and darkness:

https://i.imgur.com/SRe4nRl.jpg

This is very much in line with Morrison's writing, which put an emphasis on dualities:

https://i.imgur.com/V1GJQYz.png

And the fact that the Multiverse --- story, has no designer. It has emergent qualities:

https://i.imgur.com/8r1JSu2.png

And it emerged out of the conflict between Light/Dark. The driving force of all stories.

Which is quite nice, imo.

I hope the writer didn't land on this by mistake -- but I'd bet he did, and he'll eventually devolve it all into "pew pew" at cosmic level.

Originally posted by MrMind
no, show scans if you are so sure
I already did. Manhattan directly says everything ends.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I already did. Manhattan directly says everything ends.

that's not clear enough, the metaverse is the main universe when it rebooted if it has a cascading effect on the other universes we have no idea. because it wasn't shown.

the phrase like multiverse, omniverse were no where to be stated

Everything means everything, not just metaverse. The multiverse restarted again with the metaverse first and then the rest.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Everything means everything, not just metaverse. The multiverse restarted again with the metaverse first and then the rest.

no

everything has been used so frequently in comics it's not even funny, it's way too vague. you need supporting evidence that everything means multiverse in this case.

Originally posted by MrMind
no

everything has been used so frequently in comics it's not even funny, it's way too vague. you need supporting evidence that everything means multiverse in this case.
Death Metal made it clear Manhattan tried to correct the entire multiverse, not just one reality.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Death Metal made it clear Manhattan tried to correct the entire multiverse, not just one reality.

Scan?

Who or what is GEB?

lawest forever stuck in 12 yrs old

Originally posted by lawest9
Who or what is GEB?

Great Evil Beast. Last really seen with Swamp Thing, now shown to be the ultimate evil who has been pulling the strings behind every single crisis etc in DC.

Such is the life of endless events. You're only relevant until the next big bad.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Great Evil Beast. Last really seen with Swamp Thing, now shown to be the ultimate evil who has been pulling the strings behind every single crisis etc in DC. Thanks.

Does anyone recall whether or not Og Beyonder was able, or unable to manipulate time? The Beyonder has a couple of things going for him, he has quite a bit more panel time with feats than Dr. M. Owen may at one time or the other been peers to Dr. M as well.

I can't see him defeating TOAA on Marvel soil. Neutral soil may be another matter though so, sure although he probably would defeat TOAA on neutral ground, he wouldn't be able to do so within TOAA's realm (Marvel space), which is technically it's source of power. I mean, TOAA and other universal constants adhere to firm laws, or rules. We've seen power shifts occur in Marvel when functional reality is altered, or tampered with. So, for all we know, TOAA may be powerless in neutral space.

The Ivory Kings did it, as did Thanos (which was stated to be non canon). Whatever, lol.

Manhattan would be on the level of a Cube being imo, which should be below any Marvel character that posseses total authority over reality.

Beyonder did pluck Dr Doom out of the time stream for the original Secret Wars, and time traveled in Secret Wars II in a FF comic, so there's that.
How much understanding he had of any of it, who knows?

Dr.Manhattan was near beyonders power

not near, he surpassed it

i dont see beyonder even standing up to what perpetua has done

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Dr.Manhattan was near beyonders power far past it.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
far past it.
I mean pre retcon

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I mean pre retcon also who i'm talking about.

Beyonder certainly has better feats than Manhattan

Manhattan only got implied power that matches and surpass

Originally posted by MrMind
Beyonder certainly has better feats than Manhattan like what?

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
like what?

all the statements of him really

for example, like this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/12/125547/3344481-beyonder%27s%20omnipotence.jpg

Manhattan's only feat is having a small penis.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Manhattan's only feat is having a small penis.

he's a grower not a shower like me

Originally posted by Juntai
That was something that was added in the Final Crisis "New Edition" trade that had all the added extra panels not found in the original issues. One it snuck in there was Nix Uotan telling Rox Ogama/Mandrakk that he killed his mother, which was actually Dax Novu in Superman Beyond.

So instead of being different versions of the character where one takes up the mantle after the other is defeated as he gives into being a vampiric monitor, many new readers suddenly believe Mandrakk being some kind of bodyhopping Brainiac type of entity.

The problem arises in Unexpected 7, where we see Dax Novu/Mandrakk again, he mentions being tossed down by Superman and landing in the Dark Multiverse at the feet of Barbatos, which coincides albeit a retcon of being erased in the Overvoid, with the original idea that it's two different people.

https://i.ibb.co/J7Vb5qH/W9-H5-JWH2-A8-Ey9v4-TQZju-PQnv-Of-Oz-OTq-c-HL-O2xtk7-Qji6r8w-Sb-Puph-FR90iiu137huqowk-x7jju-XBTZGZBa.jpg

The less it's talked about The Unxpected the better -- that incarnation of Mandrakk for example was sent by the Monitors to watch over the flaw, instead of the Overvoid, lol:

https://i.ibb.co/jbX98GM/Mandrakk-Monitors.png

I chalk it up to a bad fever dream version from the Dark Multiverse, where these types of cosmic beings are in "what if" scenarios.

My take is kind of like this on the whole incarnations and single/multiple persons thing: I believe Mandrakk himself -- his role is that of the book/story ender.

Rather than see it as a retcon, I believe Dax Novu truly was erased at the end of Superman Beyond:

https://i.ibb.co/tC54wGj/Mandrakk-Erased.png

But the concept/essence of Mandrakk/Dax Novu will forever exists as long as story exists, through minions or reincarnations:

https://i.ibb.co/bs9s5n6/u-ORQyu-WS9-Ba-RTNgo4ll-w-Wqqhd80ob-ESO-F-Za-Ui-M9-Hx35-Mcefx-FA6-Lao8y-Im-NW-0ygn-Fe0v-JNCTF1eof-WA.jpg https://i.ibb.co/tQ4mdKB/Tt5-Dx-Oq52x-Rrti-K1-Gg-Yty-Ee-Rrku2-WJm-O5-O2-Tn-Cm-XLhhhsnil-MVIwds-MIWTv7-SDAq2-Lgjx-Ewzd-Ti34s1n.jpg

It's why when Ultraman reads the book of infinite pages, containing all the stories, he sees Mandrakk at the end of all stories:

https://i.ibb.co/KyPTXbG/HFq-K6-Ca-F1i-ZZN7y-PPne-ZCXQAXzdg-uongh-Ycd8-VUoc-KGas-Qju-Eiq9dnt-L91-Okt-Uqvwy9-XUtzb-As-s1600.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/jD1RfSd/ortsx8fj-NCVUFZK-Gcgvn-NYrd-JQLEQra-A0-PM-fts0c-Utx-P2-STb-R-RB40dcu-C61bs2f-Xd-ZD-Sc-NAu-YF6i-IX6-X.jpg

---

https://i.ibb.co/JBdWgmY/Ja4-Mb-Zg-Vbp-Kx3-Qx-BZrfc-WROtna3t3k198-Nz0x-Izp-X8nb-Qw3-P97q-E0dgz-Kv-Rib-RZz-Uw-WU1-Mff-Fsl-TY2.jpg

And it's why Superman engraved "To be continued" -- to say stories will never reach the end. Mandrakk will never be allowed to win because the narration will never end, and he'll make sure of it.

I wouldn't be surprised if things get bad in the next event to see Mandrakk pop up again, only for it to not be the end... again.

----

Anyway, this is waaaaaay off topic.

Manhattan wins against virutally anybody not TOAA, imo.

manhattan has virtually no noteworthy feats, i can't see him surpassing molecule man or beyonder, let alone multi-eternity

Originally posted by MrMind
all the statements of him really

for example, like this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/12/125547/3344481-beyonder%27s%20omnipotence.jpg the statements made about manhattan put him well above beyonder.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
the statements made about manhattan put him well above beyonder.

like?

like being above mxy.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
like being above mxy.

that's it though, he doesn't have feats to back it up, post retcon beyonder alone has trans-multiversal feat

mxy vs beyonder is a hot debate for more than a decade now, and both have feats to suggest they can one up each other

you're moving goalposts.

you first said that beyonder's feats put him above manhattan. i then asked what feats you were talking about. you then said it came down to statements. i said that even beyonder's statements don't put him above manhattan. now you're back to arguing feats......so which is it lol?

feat wise beyonder doesn't have anything on par with manhattan casually wiping out and remaking the multiverse, or mxy himself being specifically unable to undo manhattan's initial tinkering to the multiverse,

statement wise beyonder doesnt have anything on par with manhattan being placed above mxy.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
you're moving goalposts.

you first said that beyonder's feats put him above manhattan. i then asked what feats you were talking about. you then said it came down to statements. i said that even beyonder's statements don't put him above manhattan. now you're back to arguing feats......so which is it lol?

feat wise beyonder doesn't have anything on par with manhattan casually wiping out and remaking the multiverse, or mxy himself being specifically unable to undo manhattan's initial tinkering to the multiverse,

statement wise beyonder doesnt have anything on par with manhattan being placed above mxy.

statements are feats

manhattan never wiped out and remade the multiverse

beyonder view the entirety of marvel as droplet of water in the ocean, and retroactively marvel has always been an omniverse/multiverse

awesome. so if statements = feats, then manhattan is definitely above beyonder because statements place him above mxy.

yes he did. the multiverse was destroyed and remade from the beginning.

how beyonder views the marvel multiverse doesnt really matter in a fight.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
awesome. so if statements = feats, then manhattan is definitely above beyonder because statements place him above mxy.

yes he did. the multiverse was destroyed and remade from the beginning.

how beyonder views the marvel multiverse doesnt really matter in a fight.

you have to prove mxy is above beyonder first, show scan of multiverse destroyed and remade, stop making statements without evidence to back it up

it totally does matter, scale is everything in this level of fight

Not that it's overly pertinent to this thread... But if you want to talk high-end stuff, then Beyonder really doesn't want to get into a feat war with Mxy.

Nuff said.

Right but deadpool was referring to Manhattan remaking the multiverse which he never did

Manhattan featless as he may be was touted as being peerless by those who had feats. So everyone pretty much rolls with that which is a extremely slippery slope since we'd never use that in an other vs battle

Originally posted by Sin I AM
Manhattan featless as he may be was touted as being peerless by those who had feats. So everyone pretty much rolls with that which is a extremely slippery slope since we'd never use that in an other vs battle Generally speaking, I agree.

The reason I am personally willing to take the statements made about Manhattan at face value is because we were never really given a reason to question them.

-First and foremost, Manhattan was described as a being of inaction -- he wasn't running around preforming grandiose displays of cosmic power for the lulz, because he simply did not want to. Everything he did during Doomsday Clock amounted to little more than a passive experiment... He wanted to see why the whole of DC creation revolved around Superman, so he manipulated timespace in such a way as to produce an outcome where Superman either destroyed him, or he destroyed everything. Manhattan became so passive/complacent in his observatory role, in fact, that he wasn't even going to defend himself against an attack from Supes that might potentially kill him -- he was just going to let it happen. Moreover, Manhattan failed to initially perceive a third and final scenario: one where he effectively rebooted continuity. Granted the recent issue of Incarnate has retconned things a bit: we now know that Manhattan was at least partially corrupted by the GEB, and sent in to weaken the DCU... But that's neither here nor there.

-Secondly, you have Mxy explicitly stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself... To the point where he couldn't really do shit to prevent Manhattan's alterations to time/reality.

-Next you also have Luthor(who certainly has in depth knowledge of guys like Mxy) further reiterating that Manhattan was the most powerful being he'd ever encountered up to that point.

-Then you have the Connective energy that Manhattan embodied being likened to the equal/opposite of the Crisis energy that Perpetua embodied.

-Then you have Manhattan's power being used to seemingly stalemate Perpetua and whatnot.


So yeah, if we had ever been given a legitimate reason to doubt Manhattan's "> Mxy" status, I'd be on board with overlooking his accolades or w/e... But all things considered, it really does seem like that's just the level he was intended to be operating at, imo.

Agreed. As long as Manhattan is the exception not the norm.

I'd say he should be the norm.

If we are given statements for a character, and, crucially, have not been given reason to doubt said statements.....why not accept them?

If Wally is said to be the Fastest Man Alive....and we have not been given reason to doubt said statement....why not?

it needs to be looked at on a casebycase basis IMO. like a bunch of characters in marvel and dc have been proclaimed as "the strongest" only for that to be proven wrong by the end of the storyarc. so i say give a new character boasting that kind of power enough time to see if it actually might be true. don't just cling to an empty statement or two right off the bat.

and also keep in mind that a characters status is ALWAYS subject to change. like next month it could be revealed that geb is actually just mxy disguising himself because he was bored. a characters level is always just one issue away from being totally altered by the writers..

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'd say he should be the norm.

If we are given statements for a character, and, crucially, have not been given reason to doubt said statements.....why not accept them?

If Wally is said to be the Fastest Man Alive....and we have not been given reason to doubt said statement....why not?

Hence the slippery slope

Originally posted by Galan007
-Secondly, you have Mxy explicitly stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself... To the point where he couldn't really do shit to prevent Manhattan's alterations to time/reality. That's what I didn't understand. Everything Manhattan did to the timeline, Mxy could also do with ease. So why would he act like stuff like that was beyond him?

Originally posted by LordGod
That's what I didn't understand. Everything Manhattan did to the timeline, Mxy could also do with ease. So why would he act like stuff like that was beyond him? I think it was less about the manipulations done to reality, and more about the manipulator behind them.

Certainly Mxy could(and has) affected reality on that kind of scale -- but if indeed we believe that Manhattan > Mxy(and again, I DO), then perhaps Mxy just lacked the power to undo any changes made by a more powerful being... Similarly to how Rip Hunter(who typically has access to ANY point in all of Hypertime) was unable to access the points in time centered around Batman's death, because they were effectively locked away by Darkseid's Omega energy:
https://ibb.co/Pw9sgXq

Another analogy: if Thanos /w/ THOTI subtly manipulated reality and said "this is how I want it to be for all time", it's doubtful that someone like Franklin Richards would then be able to come in and undo said manipulations, as he simply isn't powerful enough to override the will/power of a being that is higher on the cosmological totem pole.


...Or perhaps Mxy could have undone Manhattan's alterations, but didn't want to risk incurring his wrath(Mxy did seem quite fearful of him, after all.) /shrug

The only issue with that is Myx likes to play games so he has a tendency to be misleading

Sure, but that goes back to my previous point: Mxy stated that Manhattan was more powerful than himself, and we haven't yet been given a legitimate reason to doubt his claims.

He certainly had no reason to randomly lowball his power in front of Superman/Lois/Jon, though. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
I think it was less about the manipulations done to reality, and more about the manipulator behind them.

Certainly Mxy could(and has) affected reality on that kind of scale -- but if indeed we believe that Manhattan > Mxy(and again, I DO), then perhaps Mxy just lacked the power to undo any changes made by a more powerful being... Similarly to how Rip Hunter(who typically has access to ANY point in all of Hypertime) was unable to access the points in time centered around Batman's death, because they were effectively locked away by Darkseid's Omega energy:
https://ibb.co/Pw9sgXq

Another analogy: if Thanos /w/ THOTI subtly manipulated reality and said "this is how I want it to be for all time", it's doubtful that someone like Franklin Richards would then be able to come in and undo said manipulations, as he simply isn't powerful enough to override the will/power of a being that is higher on the cosmological totem pole.


...Or perhaps Mxy could have undone Manhattan's alterations, but didn't want to risk incurring his wrath(Mxy did seem quite fearful of him, after all.) /shrug I hadn't really though ot if like that.

there's no reason to believe manhattan or mxy are above beyonders though, certainly not from feats perspective

Kwhite Known of the Phoenix

Goku SSJ100's Harem:

Female Thor
White Phoenix Crown

https://liberproeliis.fandom.com/wiki/White_Phoenix_of_The_Crown_

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Foster

Originally posted by MrMind
there's no reason to believe manhattan or mxy are above beyonders though, certainly not from feats perspective What feats do the Beyonders have that are above Mxy's best, iyo?

Originally posted by Galan007
Sure, but that goes back to my previous point: Mxy stated that Manhattan was more powerful than himself, and we haven't yet been given a legitimate reason to doubt his claims.

He certainly had no reason to randomly lowball his power in front of Superman/Lois/Jon, though. /shrug

True. You do know Mxys capabilities moreso than most posters here and have an unbiased pov so I'd concede the notion.