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Who comes out on top in this all-out battle of the Mary Sue tier characters?


Jean Grey and Invisible Woman
vs
Scarlet Witch and Storm


Bonus round - winning team members fight each other for the championship.

SW solos.

Originally posted by carver9
SW solos.
Yeah. She's been getting a HUGE push since House of M. I still remember this ***** passing out redirecting a tree branch with her hex bolts. Now she casually rearranges reality on a universal+ scale. Phuck that noise.

Storm can just declare that it's a battle of will, and proceed to stomp them all.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yeah. She's been getting a HUGE push since House of M. I still remember this ***** passing out redirecting a tree branch with her hex bolts. Now she casually rearranges reality on a universal+ scale. Phuck that noise.

Here, the TVA's reality wave (which is used to prune universes from teh sacred timeline) catches up to a train. Sue blocks it:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8930716-rco020_1469142199.jpg

And yes, she can contain magic in her force fields:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8233499-rco019.jpg

Pretty much the only thing that can penetrate Sue's force field is Kitty Pryde.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11157/111571376/8658632-1708673869-17.jp.jpg

Pretty much - though if she were in this thread, Sue could still beat her

Pretty much the only thing that can harm her is Magik (another fav of mine)'s sword:

https://i.imgur.com/lwR8QGv.jpeg

It's a quickdraw between Jean and Wanda. Either Jean shuts down Wanda's mind, or Wanda turns them into stickers or some such.

Originally posted by Glorificus
It's a quickdraw between Jean and Wanda. Either Jean shuts down Wanda's mind, or Wanda turns them into stickers or some such.

Can't the same be said for Sue, as she puts a forcefield in Scarlet's brain whilst shielding her team?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Can't the same be said for Sue, as she puts a forcefield in Scarlet's brain whilst shielding her team?
Would that even work on Wanda? Serious question.

Prob not now, actually. She's been pretty Uber lately

Zopzop would show his hairy ass to all of the ladies present in this thread and they'd all faint

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Prob not now, actually. She's been pretty Uber lately

"pretty uber"

that's golgo's catchphrase you don't get to use it saint

You can be my pretty Uber.

yeah it's a quick draw (and it's hard not to favor a high level tp in a quick draw) though i don't think anyone can stop wanda--you could give jean the pf and it likely wouldn't matter at this point.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You can be my pretty Uber.

Whilst a killing blow might not work on Scarlet Witch, paradoxically I can see a crippling blow might - where she gets lobotomised or turned into a vegetable, unable to form a conscious thought to form spells etc.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah it's a quick draw (and it's hard not to favor a high level tp in a quick draw) though i don't think anyone can stop wanda--you could give jean the pf and it likely wouldn't matter at this point.
I don't know about that. As recently as Defenders : Beyond, the Beyonder admitted the full PF was too much for him.

And then you have Jean without the PF bitchslapping Nightmare.

Hmmm this Nightmare doesn't sound too impressive. Anything.....beyond that?

Didn't she put Cassandra Nova in her place, while bragging about how the Phoenix Force was merely holding back her true potential?

This "feminazi girl power" thing is getting out of control, frankly.

I'll always prefer them as damsels in distress.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah it's a quick draw (and it's hard not to favor a high level tp in a quick draw) though i don't think anyone can stop wanda--you could give jean the pf and it likely wouldn't matter at this point.

Sue vs Emma Frost, a top tier telepath:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11139/111391579/9096270-rco018_1664856402.jpg

By the by - Sue's FF blocking the Ultimate Nullifier:

https://i.postimg.cc/D82X7Y1G/RCO013-1468987121.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/QH0WCkqy/RCO014-1468987121.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By the by - Sue's FF blocking the Ultimate Nullifier:

Then again, the UN was clearly visible in the middle of the void bubble, meaning that visible light could travel in, reflect from the device surface, and travel back out to the observers' eyes. If electromagnetic fields could survive within that void bubble why not invisible force field, too?

*shrug* comics, same way The Atom can breathe despite being smaller than oxygen, or random DNA mutations give you the ability to control the weather, or make machines forget you.

yeah i know sue's powers work at the speed of HER thoughts--high level tp users though simply think faster than non-tp users.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah i know sue's powers work at the speed of HER thoughts--high level tp users though simply think faster than non-tp users.

I don't think there's much of a muchness between Sue and a high-level TP/TK user, really.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Didn't she put Cassandra Nova in her place, while bragging about how the Phoenix Force was merely holding back her true potential?

Did she? I don't remember that.

All I remember was that Cassandra had her on the ropes, and then someone else jumped in and infected Cassandra with nanites that forced her to have empathy.

But still, the fact that she was able to go toe-to-toe with Cassandra Nova and not be instantly dominated is very impressive.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't think there's much of a muchness between Sue and a high-level TP/TK user, really.

given the speed of thought feats by marvel's high end tp users you'd have a very hard time convincing me of that. some tp feats (both marvel and dc) dwarf the speed of light. love to see feats from sue that would place her thought speed on that level.

Originally posted by leonidas
given the speed of thought feats by marvel's high end tp users you'd have a very hard time convincing me of that. some tp feats (both marvel and dc) dwarf the speed of light. love to see feats from sue that would place her thought speed on that level.

Does Marvel say speed of thought differs?

In DC, speed of light is faster.

https://i.ibb.co/fSQXw7C/RCO002-1470194211.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW




https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8976215-rco005_1468808144.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/fSQXw7C/RCO002-1470194211.jpg

did the moon merge with his shiny bald head?

Did you PM the Starman scans to Lawrence?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Does Marvel say speed of thought differs?

In DC, speed of light is faster. Because in DC, thoughts are slower

Originally posted by Smurph
Because in DC, thoughts are slower



https://i.ibb.co/r0XkDVK/quote-i-wanted-to-put-a-reference-to-masturbation-in-one-of-the-scripts-for-the-sandman-it-neil-gaim.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/NFg1NnR/v-A0e03-Bg-v-Xj-BQyt-w3-kqwhlj-N4l-TSzv8mj5vvo8-G4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/swYkm48/8034088-screenshot-408.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8976215-rco005_1468808144.jpg



she caught some guys falling from a building? i mean does that mean every time spiderman swings under and catches a falling person he's moving at the speed of thought...?

but yeah speed of thought is definitively ftl in marvel (and in dc i'd say). that scene in the ultimates solidified it but there are too many examples that make it obvious. nate and charles have many feats that support it. even things like massive information downloads. in dc saturn girl and manhunter have sent thoughts out massive distances much faster than light.

it would take....a lot more than catching someone falling to suggest sue has the thought speed of a high end tp. a LOT more...

Check the words.

She did it at the swiftness of thought.

Also check the previous scan where she says her powers work at the speed of thought.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


https://i.postimg.cc/mhMWQBq7/6053000-flash-vs-though-speed.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/wRhKHQJw/8c65a3b3-f488-4216-b00c-6304aaf72e55.jpg

sure the flash says that but we have scans of tp users in dc LITERALLY sending their thoughts out across the universe or (if you ask abii) the multiverse. instantly. see saturn girl...or more recently jonn who cast his thoughts and mind beyond zeptoseconds and planck time.... those feats blatantly contradict the flash's words--although flash is obviously something else altogether.

as for sue's powers--sure she operates/reaches out with her power at the speed of thought. by that definition so does...anyone whose powers are activated with a thought? like magik's teleportation for instance. or old school ms marvel who can apparently move/react with the speed of thought...or my personal fave, mr fantastic can also move at the speed of thought! speed blitzing the super skrulll! lol classic. (too lazy to upload the image--google mr fanatstic speed of thought in images and its the first one).

anyway, if you want to cling to the literal definition of that scan and conflate its intent that's fine and on you. it's as consequential as the loki instance or the mr fantastic instance though. at least imo. and it's a literal universe away from the support high end tp users have. but good news for loki fans and reed fans though.

I think the speed of thought is something varies from context to context.
In some cases, it only seems to mean really fast(Wolverine, Daredevil etc).
In some cases it means the characters' personal reaction speed.
And in some cases, it means TP powers' speed, hence sometimes speedsters can avoid being read mind by going really fast etc

It basically means whatever you want it to be, which makes it meaningless as a speed measurement.

Ultimates, the comic that people all go gaga over as an example of Thought> Light, ends with....Monica beating the poop out of that villain.

Even Iron Man, in his Mark 1 armour, has moved at the speed of thought:
https://i.postimg.cc/MK1jQ26q/IMG-20240531-074232.jpg

Even talks about microseconds etc. If this were Surfer or Hulk or Thor, this scan would be spammed as proof of their superspeed for decades.

Speed of thought can be multiversal or it can be street level. In this scenario, I group all powers that are thought activated (TP/TK/and yes, Invisible Woman's powers) as being at the speed of thought. They think it, it happens.

i couldn't agree more--of course it means many different things. it's been a purple prose term for 70 years. which is why the term itself is effectively meaningless. but feats? sending thoughts into planck time, casting thoughts across the universe instantly (and many other examples)--those types of examples are very definitive and have been repeated several times. it's those feats (not narrative lip-service) that set high level tp users apart from non tp users. /shrug

Then that's an issue of range, not speed. If our plucky combatants are a universe/galaxy apart, then that might be an issue. But over 500m? They're all moving at the speed of thought, and everyone here has the feats to suggest no one is out speeding anyone, assuming their powers are all applied 'at a thought'.

Originally posted by leonidas
i couldn't agree more--of course it means many different things. it's been a purple prose term for 70 years. which is why the term itself is effectively meaningless. but feats? sending thoughts into planck time, casting thoughts across the universe instantly (and many other examples)--those types of examples are very definitive and have been repeated several times. it's those feats (not narrative lip-service) that set high level tp users apart from non tp users. /shrug I've made similar arguments before and I'm partial to them because it's a clever forum application of these feats... but I don't think we would ever seriously argue that Xavier thought-blitzes Spectrum, would we?

I wish writers would never talk about the speed of thought. It means so many different things and always ends up sounding so stupid. Eg, Flash (in DS's scan last page) is talking about the speed at which neurons can transmit impulses, which is an entirely different thing than the speed at which Xavier casts a "thought" through space. One is physics and the other is metaphysics.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then that's an issue of range, not speed. If our plucky combatants are a universe/galaxy apart, then that might be an issue. But over 500m? They're all moving at the speed of thought, and everyone here has the feats to suggest no one is out speeding anyone, assuming their powers are all applied 'at a thought'.

it's a matter of one having PROOF (quantifiable in many cases) their thoughts can travel at impossible speeds, vs one NOT having proof of the same. and yes i'd say Xavier could easily shut sue down in a QuickDraw scenario 10/10 times. the term "speed of thought" is meaningless in most cases. literally. because it's been defined in the "physical/biological" sense, "metaphysically" as some ill-defined infinite type speed and as purely purple prose. the term itself is without meaning. so it's feats that should decide thought speed of specific individuals. people like Xavier and sage--they have feats that show the literal speed of their thoughts. Nate and Jonn have the same. i'd say sue operates at the speed of thought of any human. tp's operate at a higher level than that. as shown by repeated feats. :/

Originally posted by Smurph
I've made similar arguments before and I'm partial to them because it's a clever forum application of these feats... but I don't think we would ever seriously argue that Xavier thought-blitzes Spectrum, would we?

well, I guess that would be what we'd call a QuickDraw scenario in the forum. and yes, i'd say Xavier would shut spectrum down in a QuickDraw scenario like he'd shut down sue. is that a thought blitz? beats me lol



lol of course. purple prose. the term is meaningless. but it's not meaningless that tp users can and have performed many many feats that literally demonstrate the speed at which there thoughts can move and process information. again it comes down to simple support imo--tp users have feats to suggest they can think way faster than non tp users. at least in general imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
again it comes down to simple support imo--tp users have feats to suggest they can think way faster than non tp users. I guess my point -and it might be splitting hairs- is that sending thoughts across the universe doesn't prove that a tp user thinks faster. So in that specific respect, I think your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. It seems to me that the speed at which a "thought" (in the sense of a metaphysical signal, like an astral form) moves through space could be entirely unrelated to the speed at which an impulse travels across neurons. I don't see any reason to believe that those speeds are the same?

If they're both on Earth, will Xavier's powers reach Lilandra before Sue could shield her? Sure. Beyond the fact that Sue's powers don't extend that far, Xavier has proof for how fast he can contact Shi'Ar space from Earth.

Doesn't that prove that Xavier thinks faster than Sue? I don't see why.

But as I say it might be me pedantically splitting hairs because then you have feats like God Cable fighting Surfer with the two of them racing around the earth, destroying and instantly recreating their surroundings at an atomic level. And it's not like Cable got a separate speed boost - his TP and TK were at their highest, which translated into a speed boost.

So... maybe I agree with you at the end of the day anyways.

Originally posted by leonidas
it's a matter of one having PROOF (quantifiable in many cases) their thoughts can travel at impossible speeds, vs one NOT having proof of the same. and yes i'd say Xavier could easily shut sue down in a QuickDraw scenario 10/10 times. the term "speed of thought" is meaningless in most cases. literally. because it's been defined in the "physical/biological" sense, "metaphysically" as some ill-defined infinite type speed and as purely purple prose. the term itself is without meaning. so it's feats that should decide thought speed of specific individuals. people like Xavier and sage--they have feats that show the literal speed of their thoughts. Nate and Jonn have the same. i'd say sue operates at the speed of thought of any human. tp's operate at a higher level than that. as shown by repeated feats. :/

Then that is less 'speed of thought', and more 'character A has better reaction feats than character B'. It's not the fact that they are TP users, they just have better reaction feats.

Like, say if we put any decent street up (say, Daredevil, or Punisher) and gave them a GL ring, and gave a high-end TP user (say, Professor X) a GL ring, and assume all things are equal (so ignoring cynical wills etc) - I don't think Prof X would make a GL construct faster than Punisher or Daredevil can.

yeah I don't know about that. that requires a physical manifestation of thought. like I said--thought speeds are and have always been depicted differently for tp users. i'd favor them in most QuickDraw scenarios. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah I don't know about that. that requires a physical manifestation of thought. like I said--thought speeds are and have always been depicted differently for tp users. i'd favor them in most QuickDraw scenarios. /shrug

The speed of the constructs manifesting would be exactly the same across the two GL rings, hence my use of them.

So all things being equal, the only difference would be a TP user's thought speed and Daredevil's.

So would Daredevil be slower than X? The match starts, the two characters register the starting of said match, they think 'form construct' (in this scenario both contestants have to make the same thing), the rings both make said construct at the same speed - who is faster?

One would assume that the speed of thought would be whatever the speed electrical synapses run through a brain. At least for things that rely on that method of thinking I suppose.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The speed of the constructs manifesting would be exactly the same across the two GL rings, hence my use of them.

So all things being equal, the only difference would be a TP user's thought speed and Daredevil's.

So would Daredevil be slower than X? The match starts, the two characters register the starting of said match, they think 'form construct' (in this scenario both contestants have to make the same thing), the rings both make said construct at the same speed - who is faster?

i'd say the tp user would have the advantage but my opinion on it doesn't really matter since it's a meaningless, unproveable thought experiment--no pun intended....

again--one has many examples of proof regarding a higher order speed of thought, (not just thoughts traveling across the universe but downloading and processing vast amounts of information as well) one has...no proof. at all. it's as easy as that for me. saying otherwise is pure speculation and really not worth arguing over imo. at the very least the disparity in evidence is far more than enough for me to give a tp user a quickdraw over a non tp user.

So in your two paragraphs, you simultaneously say it's unprovable, whilst saying it's easily provable???

I just find it impossible that you would have a TP user just given carte blanche to be faster, just because they have a different powerset. Do their synapses fire at different speeds? You say Professor X can blitz Spectrum - can Emma? Jean? Psylocke? Where does this end?

Mister X?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in your two paragraphs, you simultaneously say it's unprovable, whilst saying it's easily provable???

In Leo's defense, he's typing posts while simultaneously licking his own biceps.

The sensation distracts him a lot.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in your two paragraphs, you simultaneously say it's unprovable, whilst saying it's easily provable???

lol really? *shakes heads* i'm saying ONE thing is unproveable--ie your made up thought experiment where you put a gl ring on prof x--and that the OTHER/DIFFERENT/SECOND thing--ie tp users have vastly superior thought speed to non tp users--is easily provable.



yes to all 3 but blitz is your word, not mine. i'd say they'd win a quickdraw. now you'll do the ds thing and nit-pick at the language lol but i can't be more clear despite your attempts to muddle and complicate things. x? dunno. he's a low level tp himself with a unique ability so not sure.

really not sure why this is hard to grasp. it's my opinion a high end tp user would win a QUICKDRAW scenario against almost anyone. why? because of an abundance of proof that supports their high end thought speed and processing speed. flash wins a quickdraw cuz he runs fast (ie has a different, better-suited-to-quickdraw power set from hulk.) xavier wins a quickdraw cuz the speed of his thoughts is fast (ie has a different, better-suited-for-quickdraw power set from spiderman.) no idea why that's such a baffling opinion to grasp. agree or don't. it's all good with me.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I think the speed of thought is something varies from context to context.
In some cases, it only seems to mean really fast(Wolverine, Daredevil etc).
In some cases it means the characters' personal reaction speed.
And in some cases, it means TP powers' speed, hence sometimes speedsters can avoid being read mind by going really fast etc I'm sure it's been said but sometimes it even means speed of thought > speed of light:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thought01_73kkPmJpBAcY9Li1w94Lzx.jpg

Hmm, this gives me an idea for a new thread!

Originally posted by leonidas
lol really? *shakes heads* i'm saying ONE thing is unproveable--ie your made up thought experiment where you put a gl ring on prof x--and that the OTHER/DIFFERENT/SECOND thing--ie tp users have vastly superior thought speed to non tp users--is easily provable.



yes to all 3 but blitz is your word, not mine. i'd say they'd win a quickdraw. now you'll do the ds thing and nit-pick at the language lol but i can't be more clear despite your attempts to muddle and complicate things. x? dunno. he's a low level tp himself with a unique ability so not sure.

really not sure why this is hard to grasp. it's my opinion a high end tp user would win a QUICKDRAW scenario against almost anyone. why? because of an abundance of proof that supports their high end thought speed and processing speed. flash wins a quickdraw cuz he runs fast (ie has a different, better-suited-to-quickdraw power set from hulk.) xavier wins a quickdraw cuz the speed of his thoughts is fast (ie has a different, better-suited-for-quickdraw power set from spiderman.) no idea why that's such a baffling opinion to grasp. agree or don't. it's all good with me.
I get what you mean about TP users seeming to almost universally have faster brain speeds in general. Doesn't really stand out because Marvel doesn't have all that many speedsters and DC gives outright super speed to damn near everyone of note, but issue to issue TP users do have faster brains than most folks. I wouldn't automatically give a high level tp users a quick draw edge over a lightspeeder(falls to writer interpretation on that one), but I tend to give them an edge over most sub-light guys. And it seems logical on a very basic level. Your brain is a muscle and if your whole schtick is thinking really hard to get stuff done, you're going to train the efficiency of that muscle a lot more than most.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I get what you mean about TP users seeming to almost universally have faster brain speeds in general. Doesn't really stand out because Marvel doesn't have all that many speedsters and DC gives outright super speed to damn near everyone of note, but issue to issue TP users do have faster brains than most folks. I wouldn't automatically give a high level tp users a quick draw edge over a lightspeeder(falls to writer interpretation on that one), but I tend to give them an edge over most sub-light guys. And it seems logical on a very basic level. Your brain is a muscle and if your whole schtick is thinking really hard to get stuff done, you're going to train the efficiency of that muscle a lot more than most. I'm not sure how that would be any different for many other power sets though. You can make the identical argument for Quicksilver training the efficiency of his quickdraw reflexes, because being fast is his whole schtick. Alternatively, Invisible Woman, whose powers are just a different variation of "thinking really hard to get stuff done". For the purpose of this argument, there's nothing that distinguishes her from someone with telekinesis.

I do think comics tend to show that high level TP = an increase in the ability to process massive data amounts, but there are too many assumptions that come into play to give TP users a quickdraw edge because they have TP. Among other things it seems to basically run against the rule on feat sharing.

I would happily wager that there's way more evidence to suggest that an increase in martial arts skill generally = a quickdraw edge, but I don't think we could fairly make the argument that, say, Karnak could beat Jean Grey in the GL scenario just on the basis of his "skill stat".

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not sure how that would be any different for many other power sets though. You can make the identical argument for Quicksilver training the efficiency of his quickdraw reflexes, because being fast is his whole schtick. Alternatively, Invisible Woman, whose powers are just a different variation of "thinking really hard to get stuff done". For the purpose of this argument, there's nothing that distinguishes her from someone with telekinesis.

I do think comics tend to show that high level TP = an increase in the ability to process massive data amounts, but there are too many assumptions that come into play to give TP users a quickdraw edge because they have TP. Among other things it seems to basically run against the rule on feat sharing.

I would happily wager that there's way more evidence to suggest that an increase in martial arts skill generally = a quickdraw edge, but I don't think we could fairly make the argument that, say, Karnak could beat Jean Grey in the GL scenario just on the basis of his "skill stat".
I can agree up to a point about how the same might apply to other power sets, and actually agree with the notion in regards to people like GL and IW. But for me the thing that sets TP users ahead of most characters like that, are numerously instances of high level tp users having specific note of having one of the worlds most powerful brains/minds/etc. By the same token, if I hear that someone has one of the worlds most powerful leg muscles, I generally figure there's at least some level of increased leg speed.

And in regards to feat sharing between TP users, while I don't support the transfer of specific high end feats, I don't mind vague "ghost points" being given for use when there's nothing to suggest being an exception to a general trend. I don't mind crediting a random Kryptonian with the ability to dodge a lightning bolt cause that's the kind of thing Kryptonian's can do without raising an eyebrow. And I don't mind the idea of crediting random strongman types with some degree of invulnerability for the same reason even though characters like Sunspot exist.

Criticizing speed-reaction feat sharing amongst telepaths/telekinetics seems fair.

So would criticizing speed-reaction sharing amongst superspeedsters also be fair?

If people cannot agree on that, are they in agreement that Gorilla Grodd/Terry Jessup can outreact superspeedsters like Wally West or Monica Rambeau?

Originally posted by darthgoober
I can agree up to a point about how the same might apply to other power sets, and actually agree with the notion in regards to people like GL and IW. But for me the thing that sets TP users ahead of most characters like that, are numerously instances of high level tp users having specific note of having one of the worlds most powerful brains/minds/etc. By the same token, if I hear that someone has one of the worlds most powerful leg muscles, I generally figure there's at least some level of increased leg speed. None of this sounds unreasonable, but I think there's still a disconnect between the general assumption you could drawn about a big brain, and winning a quick draw.

In Dark's GL ring scenario, assuming a basic level of ring competency for both parties, who do you think makes a construct faster - the world's smartest man, or a Formula 1 driver?

Originally posted by darthgoober
And in regards to feat sharing between TP users, while I don't support the transfer of specific high end feats, I don't mind vague "ghost points" being given for use when there's nothing to suggest being an exception to a general trend. I don't mind crediting a random Kryptonian with the ability to dodge a lightning bolt cause that's the kind of thing Kryptonian's can do without raising an eyebrow. And I don't mind the idea of crediting random strongman types with some degree of invulnerability for the same reason even though characters like Sunspot exist. Sure. I just don't think we're in a realm comparable to either a Kryptonian dodging lightning or a strongman being tough.

Unless it's such a standard and basic assumption that telepaths win quickdraws. Maybe there are a ton of examples that I'm not thinking of.

Originally posted by Smurph
None of this sounds unreasonable, but I think there's still a disconnect between the general assumption you could drawn about a big brain, and winning a quick draw.

In Dark's GL ring scenario, assuming a basic level of ring competency for both parties, who do you think makes a construct faster - the world's smartest man, or a Formula 1 driver?
I think the Formula 1 driver might make the decision to create a construct first, but without knowing anything else about them I figure the world's smartest man would probably be faster in regards to processing the high definition, focused mental image one needs to bring the construct to life.

Originally posted by Smurph
Sure. I just don't think we're in a realm comparable to either a Kryptonian dodging lightning or a strongman being tough.

Unless it's such a standard and basic assumption that telepaths win quickdraws. Maybe there are a ton of examples that I'm not thinking of.
It's probably not a standard assumption, it's just what I personally infer when I view the situation as a whole. To me, most psychics of the tp/tk variety seem to have super powerful brains, brains are organic computers, when one talks about one computer being more powerful than another they're generally talking about it processing data faster even though with tp I'm sure force of personality is what they're primarily talking about. I see that TP/TK makes an ape a threat to the premier speedster in comics and their interactions include quotes about the speed of thought being faster than the speed of light combined with any number of TP users bringing down speedsters when they're in a group plus TK users screwing with high speed projectiles in flight, and even the clairvoyant characters that are physically human but still manage to dodge people with super speed, and I detect something of a trend even though there are plenty of exceptions.

How much of these feats, especially for the non-Wanda characters, are actual power upgrades over the years vs incremental power creep?

Back in the 90s, Jean (who was holding back) faced off vs a bloodlusted Sue and it was a draw.
https://i.postimg.cc/mct54Yn0/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/sBq0gBd1/image.jpg
Notice :
1) Sue initiated the attack on Jean and Jean beat back Sue's power
2) Jean during this time, didn't have any TP only TK
3) Sue's energy projection and constructs are invisible, yet Jean 'saw' the attack and reacted in time to defend against it

Ahab had turned Scott and Sue into hounds to hunt down Rachel and Adult Franklin. It was stated on panel that they were in every way equal to their former selves except that now they were 100% loyal to Ahab.
https://i.postimg.cc/bZ6B4Cmx/image.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
I think the Formula 1 driver might make the decision to create a construct first, but without knowing anything else about them I figure the world's smartest man would probably be faster in regards to processing the high definition, focused mental image one needs to bring the construct to life.


It's probably not a standard assumption, it's just what I personally infer when I view the situation as a whole. To me, most psychics of the tp/tk variety seem to have super powerful brains, brains are organic computers, when one talks about one computer being more powerful than another they're generally talking about it processing data faster even though with tp I'm sure force of personality is what they're primarily talking about. I see that TP/TK makes an ape a threat to the premier speedster in comics and their interactions include quotes about the speed of thought being faster than the speed of light combined with any number of TP users bringing down speedsters when they're in a group plus TK users screwing with high speed projectiles in flight, and even the clairvoyant characters that are physically human but still manage to dodge people with super speed, and I detect something of a trend even though there are plenty of exceptions.

Hence my new thread - where Emma projects an image with all of its complexity and definition (if it helps, imagine she's just projecting a simple shape like a square or a circle) into the driver/intelligent man (in comic terms, Wolverine/X/Hulk/Quicksilver)'s minds.

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm not sure how that would be any different for many other power sets though. You can make the identical argument for Quicksilver training the efficiency of his quickdraw reflexes, because being fast is his whole schtick. Alternatively, Invisible Woman, whose powers are just a different variation of "thinking really hard to get stuff done". For the purpose of this argument, there's nothing that distinguishes her from someone with telekinesis.

I do think comics tend to show that high level TP = an increase in the ability to process massive data amounts, but there are too many assumptions that come into play to give TP users a quickdraw edge because they have TP. Among other things it seems to basically run against the rule on feat sharing.

I would happily wager that there's way more evidence to suggest that an increase in martial arts skill generally = a quickdraw edge, but I don't think we could fairly make the argument that, say, Karnak could beat Jean Grey in the GL scenario just on the basis of his "skill stat".

you're point about feat sharing is fair, which is why i've said repeatedly--high end tp users. most if not all the significant tp users in dc and marvel have demonstrations of both high end thought speed and high end thought processing abilities that most non-tp users simply don't have. certain guys like flash and superman have been shown to be able to significantly alter their thought and processing speeds though so they'd certainly be able to win in a quickdraw. but if we're looking at a quickdraw with just thought-based powers i'd take the tp almost every time. like i said, burden of proof lies with them--heavily. thoughts are also their whole schtick :/