Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The forum is pretty dead, so I thought it would be fun to have a thread like this.

The Scenario
Our four contestants are all given a GL ring , and are proficient in its use. No cynical wills, no CIS, none of that.

Emma Frost is given a pack of 100 cards, perfectly shuffled, with a variety of pictures on them - an apple, a boat, a bicycle, whatever.

She draws one, and psychically broadcasts the picture simultaneously to all four contestants. Assume no psychic dampeners are in play, Wolverine's Weapon X training isn't hampering him, Hulk's rage isn't blocking Emma etc. They all receive the image at the same time.

The Contest
As soon as they receive the mental image from Emma, each contestant must use their GL ring, and form a construct of the image - an apple, a boat, a bicycle, whatever. No embellishments are made, no crude representations are made - they all make exactly the same image. Every GL ring is exactly the same, fresh from Oa, fully charged etc.

The thread is to see who can form the image first - a quickdraw, if you will.

The Contestants
Hulk (let's use Savage)
Wolverine
Professor X
Quicksilver

Who wins? Whose thoughts are fastest? Order them, if you dare!

Hmmm

Quicksilver
Wolverine
Prof X
Hulk

Professor X
Quicksilver
Wolverine
Hulk

Professor X
Wolverine
Quicksilver
Hulk

Doctor Doom
Doom
Victor Von Doom
Dr. Doom

Reasons, everyone?

It has to be either Pietro or X coming out on top.

Pietro due to actual reaction time, X due to skill with his mind.

Originally posted by Smurph
Hmmm

Quicksilver
Wolverine
Prof X
Hulk This.

Imo, Quicksilver should be the clear #1, given that he effectively has more time to perceive the image and manifest the construct accordingly. Speedster-brains are a thing, more times than not.

Wolverine seems to be a good pick for the #2 spot, primarily because of his enhanced perception/reaction speed.

Xavier obviously has the most telepathic experience, but in this particular scenario, I don't think it counts for much... Though I am mildly curious why some would select him for the #1 spot..? /shrug

Hulk... Shouldn't even be here.

Hulk is Hulk! But I put him here as he actually does have *some* reaction speed feats, but isn't as obvious as say Wolverine.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Reasons, everyone? https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Dombot01.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
This.

Imo, Quicksilver should be the clear #1, given that he effectively has more time to perceive the image and manifest the construct accordingly. Speedster-brains are a thing, more times than not.

Wolverine seems to be a good pick for the #2 spot, primarily because of his enhanced perception/reaction speed.

Xavier obviously has the most telepathic experience, but in this particular scenario, I don't think it counts for much... Though I am mildly curious why some would select him for the #1 spot..? /shrug

Hulk... Shouldn't even be here.

Because speed isn't everything skill and finesse can make things go fast to.

Let's take a shooting competition for example, one person has a semi-automatic rifle but is very very skilled at shooting.

One person has a machine gun but has never shot a gun in their life.


You put 10 targets out in the field, nine times out of 10 the skilled shooter is going to hit all 10 targets before the machine gunner does.

But that is regular humans, Quicksilver is so far beyond everyone else here in speed that yeah he's obviously going to win.

But with Xavier that is his bread and butter so I can see him doing it faster than Hulk and Wolverineeven if they are faster and have better reaction times.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Because speed isn't everything skill and finesse can make things go fast to.

Let's take a shooting competition for example, one person has a semi-automatic rifle but is very very skilled at shooting.

One person has a machine gun but has never shot a gun in their life.


You put 10 targets out in the field, nine times out of 10 the skilled shooter is going to hit all 10 targets before the machine gunner does.

But that is regular humans, Quicksilver is so far beyond everyone else here in speed that yeah he's obviously going to win.

But with Xavier that is his bread and butter so I can see him doing it faster than Hulk and Wolverineeven if they are faster and have better reaction times.

But in this scenario, every contestant has the same rifle and the same amount of skill operating said rifle.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But in this scenario, every contestant has the same rifle and the same amount of skill operating said rifle. Yea, but what he said about this being Xavier's bread and butter is kinda true. Xavier has vast experience manifesting his thoughts on the astral plane and during telepathic conversations. Some of which are very visual-based. And a GL ring is a weapon that manifests thoughts.

It doesn't seem like anybody is really arguing against the notion that Xavier could use a GL ring "better" than Quicksilver. And if Xavier was amped by the Speedforce, nobody would likely argue he couldn't win a quick-draw contest against an unamped Xavier.

But should it be that surprising that Xavier/Hector Hammond could use a GL ring "faster" than Quicksilver/Mary Marvel? If you read enough comics, the realm of thought isn't exactly measured by RL speed:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Xavier01.jpg

Could Quicksilver use a GL ring faster than Hal or Kyle?

Originally posted by carver9
Could Quicksilver use a GL ring faster than Hal or Kyle? https://media1.tenor.com/m/RMx6o7ZYCdUAAAAd/weebay-thewire.gif

yat has super speed, right? has anyone ever seen him create constructs faster than anyone else?

a point of interest cuz it's cool--in one of kyle's greatest feats (imo) he created his own lantern corps. and one of the lanterns was able to access the speed force. she had trouble using her speed and ring at the same time but she was able to use the ring and share speed with Adam strange. a speedforce user with a ring would be pretty awesome lol

Originally posted by leonidas
yat has super speed, right? has anyone ever seen him create constructs faster than anyone else?

a point of interest cuz it's cool--in one of kyle's greatest feats (imo) he created his own lantern corps. and one of the lanterns was able to access the speed force. she had trouble using her speed and ring at the same time but she was able to use the ring and share speed with Adam strange. a speedforce user with a ring would be pretty awesome lol

Do you mean Green Lightning? Yeah, massive waste.

Only time I could think of was when Wally got Hal's ring:

https://i.postimg.cc/VdtVZQ3M/RCO025.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/68N1DbXP/RCO026.jpg

Mind you, this was when he was losing his connection to the SF, so was pretty slow (for him). Even with the SF, he was still super inexperienced with the ring:

https://i.postimg.cc/rwpW1NSV/RCO028.jpg

For this thread, am assuming all issues are turned off - so all contestants are super experienced and expert at ringslinging.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Only time I could think of was when Wally got Hal's ring:


*Barry*
Shame on you, DS

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I never actually read comics, I only do it for the feats

my bad.Originally posted by carver9
Could Quicksilver use a GL ring faster than Hal or Kyle?
I don't see why not, if he's given the same training and has the right kind of willpower etc.

Originally posted by ODG
Yea, but what he said about this being Xavier's bread and butter is kinda true. Xavier has vast experience manifesting his thoughts on the astral plane and during telepathic conversations. Some of which are very visual-based. And a GL ring is a weapon that manifests thoughts.

It doesn't seem like anybody is really arguing against the notion that Xavier could use a GL ring "better" than Quicksilver. And if Xavier was amped by the Speedforce, nobody would likely argue he couldn't win a quick-draw contest against an unamped Xavier.

But should it be that surprising that Xavier/Hector Hammond could use a GL ring "faster" than Quicksilver/Mary Marvel? If you read enough comics, the realm of thought isn't exactly measured by RL speed:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Xavier01.jpg

Just seen this.

I see telepathy (and teleportation) as ignoring distance, so to speak - the time taken for a telepathic bolt to travel 1 mile is the same as travelling 10 miles (or in X's case, a galaxy). That doesn't mean his reactions are faster than a speedster like Quicksilver who runs that 10 miles, though.

If I had a message to send across a football field, i can either shout across it, or my friend (who knows the message) could sprint across it at the speed of Usain Bolt. The shouter will of course send the message faster - but I'm not faster than Bolt at all. That's how it is with telepaths.

When X sends a telepathic message to Wolverine, or he sends entire battle plans (for example) - does Wolverine take ages to digest and process the plan? No - the speed at which X thinks at Logan, is the speed at which Logan processes it. When Martian Manhunter updates the entire JLA with battle tactics, do they need to wait for Plastic Man or Batman to catch up to the Flash/Superman? Not really. They all think at the speed of thought.

This thread is asking who can react to the information from Emma first, and act accordingly on said information.

^ I wasn't arguing Xavier could exceed Quicksilver's physical motor speed.

But when it comes to thought, a telepath's thoughts aren't really constrained by physical motor speed.

If you gave them both pistols, I'd readily give Quicksilver the edge in a quickdraw contest.

But you gave them both GL rings. GL rings are thought-based weapons. /shrug

I think the problem is, people are comparing telepaths thoughts to you standard human when that isn't the case.

I think the problem is, proof.

Originally posted by ODG
^ I wasn't arguing Xavier could exceed Quicksilver's physical motor speed.

But when it comes to thought, a telepath's thoughts aren't really constrained by physical motor speed.

If you gave them both pistols, I'd readily give Quicksilver the edge in a quickdraw contest.

But you gave them both GL rings. GL rings are thought-based weapons. /shrug

But their neurons, their synapses, their reactions, are still constrained.

I am obviously not getting the other side's arguments, so let me try and break it down stage by stage:

A:Emma slips the card, sees the symbol on it, broadcasts it simultaneously to all participants. They all receive it simultaneously.

B: The contestant reacts to it ('It's a circle!')

C: The contestant thinks 'Circle'

D: The ring forms the appropriate construct.

A and D are equal amongst all the contestants (hopefully we agree on this at least!). B and C are what's different - and if people are not saying B is Quicksilver's to lose (i.e. we agree that Quicksilver is fastest at B, followed by Wolverine etc), and that C is where and how Professor X wins the gold....that makes no sense to me.

Are people really agreeing that Quicksilver has the fastest reactions, but the time it then takes for him to think 'Circle' is so much slower than Professor X that he loses??? We know in step B, that Quicksilver is capable of reacting in picoseconds...but now we're saying that he recognises that it's a circle, but then...is unable to think of a circle before Professor X slowly recognises its a circle and then thinks of one?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But their neurons, their synapses, their reactions, are still constrained. If Xavier's neurons were constrained, he could not stretch out seconds of real time conscious thought into an eternity just by simply willing it so. His neurons simply could not keep up.

But they did keep up. Ergo, Xavier isn't as constrained by real life physics as one might normally expect. Because, yknow, comics.

Originally posted by ODG
If Xavier's neurons were constrained, he could not stretch out seconds of real time conscious thought into an eternity just by simply willing it so. His neurons simply could not keep up.

But they did keep up. Ergo, Xavier isn't as constrained by real life physics as one might normally expect. Because, yknow, comics.

I see that as the same way my mind can stretch entire dreams in a few minutes of dreaming.

But your argument is that step C is incredibly short for X, short enough that even if Quicksilver can react in picoseconds, he can still catch up?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I see that as the same way my mind can stretch entire dreams in a few minutes of dreaming. Err... are we assuming the rules of Inception apply to real life??? Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But your argument is that step C is incredibly short for X, short enough that even if Quicksilver can react in picoseconds, he can still catch up? I admit I didn't really pay attention to your proposed Steps A-D. I definitely didn't parse them separately. A cursory glance leads me to think that because Xavier is a telepath possessing comic telepathy and the GL ring is a thought-based weapon, that steps B-D end up being blurred/blended, if not outright merged.

I don't necessarily agree with how you characterize Steps B-D. That's your definition/interpretation of how it'd work. Not necessarily mine.

I think it bears mentioning that: I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another on this specific hypothetical. It looked like an interesting conversation between a lot of good KMC posters.

I... I just felt left out...

https://images.rapgenius.com/86dae871ee7c7cb517d6f9020c4c4715.350x197x57.gif

you've turned into a big softie over the years.

https://c.tenor.com/XmuypZ9u1UkAAAAd/tenor.gif

Originally posted by ODG
Err... are we assuming the rules of Inception apply to real life??? I admit I didn't really pay attention to your proposed Steps A-D. I definitely didn't parse them separately. A cursory glance leads me to think that because Xavier is a telepath possessing comic telepathy and the GL ring is a thought-based weapon, that steps B-D end up being blurred/blended, if not outright merged.

I don't necessarily agree with how you characterize Steps B-D. That's your definition/interpretation of how it'd work. Not necessarily mine.

I think it bears mentioning that: I really don't have a strong opinion one way or another on this specific hypothetical. It looked like an interesting conversation between a lot of good KMC posters.

I... I just felt left out...

https://images.rapgenius.com/86dae871ee7c7cb517d6f9020c4c4715.350x197x57.gif


I mean. When Xavier has a long drawn out conversation with someone, are THEY also not constrained by physics?

Like,say, he has a mental conversation with Logan. Fine, X is a telepath, his neurons are super fast etc. But Logan is perfectly fine keeping up

Originally posted by ODG
https://c.tenor.com/XmuypZ9u1UkAAAAd/tenor.gif

Lol...

Did you start working on that respect thread?

So for example, this:
https://i.imgur.com/s9d7br9.png

Does Moira, too, then, have FTL thought processes?

Or here:
Jean and Beast, mid-battle, go to the Astral Plane and have an entire conversation, talking tactics etc:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072081-1.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11137/111378174/8072080-2.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072079-3.jpg

He ends the convo, and goes back to the fight - and Beast notes no time has passed in the real world.

Does Beast have FTL thought speeds?

Does Storm? Here, she has an entire girls' shopping trip with Jean, has coffee, goes dancing, goes shopping etc - all in the space of time of a lightning bolt:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072078-4.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072077-5.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072076-6.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072075-7.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072074-8.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072073-9.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11137/111378174/8072072-10.jpg

At this rate, soon anyone who has a conversation with a telepath is going to be FTL in their neuron-firing.

^ Seems like you're begging a question that you yourself have amply answered with more evidence than even I provided. Each one of those scenes involves a high-end telepath that brings a non-telepath(s) into their own consciousness/astral plane for conversation.

And it's the telepath that allows for what's clearly and undeniably occurring within the four corners of these comic book pages: actual thoughts (including visualizations of thoughts) are being processed at far higher speeds beyond the normal constraints of real life neurons firing.

Because that's apparently something high-end telepaths can do/facilitate.

And this fictional comic quickdraw contest involves a fictional comic thought-based weapon where fictional comic telepathy exists. So... ? Originally posted by carver9
Lol...

Did you start working on that respect thread? Me wanderin out in dem fields of comics, pickin the best Hulk scans day in and day out with my bare hands for profits I'll never see... I feel oppressed! You workin me like a slave driver!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/c0/3a/d5c03aff4fd1ba2d9d3ffaa967a641c3.gif

Lmmfao... ok, you got a point. I was just checking

Also, those scans Dark posted, it seems like the telepathy are controlling the speed process of the characters. They are choosing whom minds are processing things at super speed and whom mind isn't. This is a sign of skill, versatility, and super speed at the same time.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Seems like you're begging a question that you yourself have amply answered with more evidence than even I provided. Each one of those scenes involves a high-end telepath that brings a non-telepath(s) into their own consciousness/astral plane for conversation.

And it's the telepath that allows for what's clearly and undeniably occurring within the four corners of these comic book pages: actual thoughts (including visualizations of thoughts) are being processed at far higher speeds beyond the normal constraints of real life neurons firing.

Because that's apparently something high-end telepaths can do/facilitate.

And this fictional comic quickdraw contest involves a fictional comic thought-based weapon where fictional comic telepathy exists. So... ? Me wanderin out in dem fields of comics, pickin the best Hulk scans day in and day out with my bare hands for profits I'll never see... I feel oppressed! You workin me like a slave driver!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d5/c0/3a/d5c03aff4fd1ba2d9d3ffaa967a641c3.gif

But the point being that anyone who in the Astral Plane is capable of having entire conversations/life experiences etc, in the span of moments. It's not this:
Originally posted by ODG
If Xavier's neurons were constrained, he could not stretch out seconds of real time conscious thought into an eternity just by simply willing it so. His neurons simply could not keep up.

But they did keep up. Ergo, Xavier isn't as constrained by real life physics as one might normally expect. Because, yknow, comics.

Anyone can keep up. So telepaths themselves do not have special neurons or what have you - the astral plane is just a place where time/distance does not apply.

They're not faster than normal humans. They're not processing at speeds higher than normal,, let alone FTL, any more than Moira or Beast are processing at speeds FTL.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, those scans Dark posted, it seems like the telepathy are controlling the speed process of the characters. They are choosing whom minds are processing things at super speed and whom mind isn't. This is a sign of skill, versatility, and super speed at the same time.

If I listen to an audio file at 100x normal speed, if my brain cannot keep up, it's just nonsense.

Beast, Storm and Moira (and many others) are able to keep up. Despite not having telepathic powers.

Therefore, it doesn't need superfast perceptions/reactions for telepathic conversations in the astral plane that last a moment in real time. It's like using hyperspace to travel - you're not necessarily fast in 'real' terms, but are taking a shortcut.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
They're not processing at speeds higher than normal,, let alone FTL, any more than Moira or Beast are processing at speeds FTL. Never quantified Xavier's thoughts as FTL. But he can process thoughts/facilitate other's thoughts using telepathy far faster than real life neurons allow.

You mention the astral plane as some sort of facilitating agent? A closer analysis of your scans might prove that to be true but Xavier can stretch conversations without completely emptying his consciousness onto the astral plane. The example I initially provided had Xavier stretch a few seconds into a pages-long telepathic debate while he was actually disconnecting Danger's head from her body in the physical world:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Xavier02.jpg

The astral plane wasn't a factor in the example I provided. Bottom-line is, you 're posting scans in protest that ironically seem to support my position more than undermine it. But we don't really need to deconstruct how telepathy works in comics. It's not an exact science. It's fiction written by many authors who compound and contradict it each other.

Long story short, you give them simple pistols, Quicksilver wins a quick draw contest because he can twitch his finger faster. But you gave them thought-based weapons. An argument could be made that Xavier wins a quick draw contest because he has feats of "thinking" faster.

Originally posted by ODG
Long story short, you give them simple pistols, Quicksilver wins a quick draw contest because he can twitch his finger faster. But you gave them thought-based weapons. An argument could be made that Xavier wins a quick draw contest because he has feats of "thinking" faster. Yeah, you're right, an argument could be made.

Are you making it though? Because I still feel like some of the dots don't quite connect.

^ Quicksilver can think faster via physical acceleration.

Xavier can think faster via comic telepathy schmuckery.

GL rings are activated by thought.

This is a GL ring quickdraw contest.

https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:828/format:webp/1*oaJlY6rLTVKnCCwrjCItMA.jpeg

Tis elementary my dear Watson.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Quicksilver can think faster via physical acceleration.

Xavier can think faster via comic telepathy schmuckery.

GL rings are activated by thought.

This is a GL ring quickdraw contest.

https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:828/format:webp/1*oaJlY6rLTVKnCCwrjCItMA.jpeg

Tis elementary my dear Watson. This is the part that I don't think is proven.

Do we have any feats of Xavier just plainly outreacting speedsters?

Originally posted by carver9
I think the problem is, people are comparing telepaths thoughts to you standard human when that isn't the case.

Carver and Smurph actually nail it on the (telepath's) head, here.

We're not just saying speedsters, actually - does X have feats that prove his thoughts are faster than even say, a character like Captain America (who sees bullets in slow motion)?

And if yes, what are these feats?

really? lol x's thoughts cross GALAXIES instantly. but WE have to prove HIS thoughts are faster than cap's? c'mon.... how about you prove cap's thoughts are fast enough to cross a galaxy....this is turning into an i don't like it it didn't happen situation. all along i've said tp's have the wealth of proof on their side. it's never been anyting more difficult than that. not sure why you have such a hard time accepting it. this thread hasn't changed anything.

I can shout across a field faster than any human alive or dead can ever run. My thought process isn't the fastest of all humans, ever.

Nightcrawler can teleport across 5 miles faster than, say, Cap can run. Or Cassandra Cain, or Spider-Man etc, can move.

He's not faster than any of them in thought speed. Or is he? As he visualises a destination and ports there. If you want to argue he uses another dimension, replace him with any other teleporter who doesn't.

I also have a wealth of proof showing Nightcrawler teleporting...

Originally posted by leonidas
all along i've said tp's have the wealth of proof on their side. Ok

So do we have any feats of Xavier just plainly outreacting speedsters? Or (to DS' point) skilled streets?

When it comes down to reaction feats, I don't think the wealth of proof is on Xavier's side... but maybe I'm wrong? If his reflexes actually are ftl then surely he wins every quickdraw, since his powers manifest at the speed of his ftl thoughts.

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok

So do we have any feats of Xavier just plainly outreacting speedsters? Or (to DS' point) skilled streets?

When it comes down to reaction feats, I don't think the wealth of proof is on Xavier's side... but maybe I'm wrong? If his reflexes actually are ftl then surely he wins every quickdraw, since his powers manifest at the speed of his ftl thoughts.

this is where ds appears very confused. this isn't about out reacting in a typical QuickDraw where a PHYSICAL ACTION is involved. this started out because ds didn't like that I said in a very specific type of QuickDraw scenario i'd favour a tp over a non-tp. the specific type of QuickDraw? a QuickDraw solely dependent on thought activated powers. no physical actions (you know, like teleporting....) ie-could sue activate and use her powers faster or as fast as xavier. or Nate. or jonn or Emma or.... and no. I absolutely don't think so.

in a QuickDraw scenario where the only deciding factor is speed of thought, i'll favour a tp user almost every time over a non tp user. why? because they have tons of support that their powers allow them to think differently and faster. why? comic books. but the wealth of proof is there to support it. hence, my opinion. could mags activate a shield before Xavier could command him to sleep? i'll take Xavier. these contrived scenarios are meaningless.

we've SEEN characters who are non tp users actively capable of speeding up their thoughts. superman and flash most notably. can quicksilver? maybe? possibly? but I'd need to see proof. cap? sue? mags? they don't have anything to support this idea. that's why I said WAY early on speedsters could be different--if they have support. but others? in this very specific scenario? i'll take a tp user. funny--you and I won a tourney based primarily on this idea. you convinced the judges but not yourself. lol

anyway, ds started last week with the same question he just asked, so circle complete. it's a simple matter of proof. superman and flash have the proof. if sue does, or any other non tp user does, feel free to share the scans. if not, i'll stick with a my original opinion. where the speed of thought is clearly evidenced. it really isn't more complicated than that.

So is that a no?

Good example imo... TPs imo just owns raw speed. The distance between QS and Jean is nothing by the way. He should be able to cover that instantly and he still got mind raped by Jean...

https://i.ibb.co/qDN8HN1/tumblr-ff159ae8cb9eceda845c913836499cf4-29216456-1280.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Q6xtyTx/tumblr-aeb8e5c1b689290fe50da0692af0c2a9-bd9901a4-1280.jpg

lol, you're missing two pages in the middle there, Carver

Two pages in which Quicksilver murders Okoye (I think...) and then Johnny Storm, before the second that it takes Jean Grey to reach inside his mind and shut him down. Hence the text box in the bottom right of your scan: "But so much damage had already been done..."

Yeah, because it took a second for him to cross...50metres? If that's how slow he is, I'm not surprised.

Have you got all the pages? You sure there's nothing missing?

Good scan from Dark Ages (noncanon), though. I liked the art in that non-canon comic.

Edit: ninjad by Smurph.

Anyways, Carver's non-canon scans elegantly demonstrate the issue

Even when Jean had a warning that there was something in Quicksilver's mind, and they had the pre-cog warning from Spider-Man, it still took longer for her to think "sleep" than for Quicksilver to murder two people and take a run at a third

In other words, it's all well and good to go on about TP thought speed, but unless there are actual reflex feats, it's like comparing flight speed to fight speed.

except in this very particular case we ARE comparing fight speed to fight speed. or rather thought activated power to thought activated power.

Originally posted by leonidas
except in this very particular case we ARE comparing fight speed to fight speed. or rather thought activated power to thought activated power. Quicksilver's legs are thought activated. He had something in his mind compelling him to murder, as Jean sensed - ergo, his "thoughts" were activating his powers. The problem was that her reflexes to think "sleep" were slower than his.

This thread is no different.

so smurph--your REAL life depended on it. sue and Xavier are 25m apart. one MUST kill the other. you must pick one. you're telling me you're taking sue in that scenario? I mean I really don't care all that much it's not how I'd pick it.

Originally posted by Smurph
Quicksilver's legs are thought activated. He had something in his mind compelling him to murder, as Jean sensed - ergo, his "thoughts" were activating his powers. The problem was that her reflexes to think "sleep" were slower than his.

This thread is no different.

i've already allowed for the chance that speedsters are different. if someone says qs wins, it really doesn't matter to me. :/

Originally posted by ODG

Long story short, you give them simple pistols, Quicksilver wins a quick draw contest because he can twitch his finger faster. But you gave them thought-based weapons. An argument could be made that Xavier wins a quick draw contest because he has feats of "thinking" faster. I've been responding to this, which you gave the thumbs up /shrug

This thread has Hulk, Wolverine, Professor X and QS. I already gave my ranking as:

Originally posted by Smurph
Hmmm

Quicksilver
Wolverine
Prof X
Hulk

The reflexes issue is the reason why. So to answer your question re: X and Sue, it would come down to reflex feats.

As it should for.....any character.

Sans feats, they don't get special dispensation just because of their status .

I have QS as the fastest, based on feats, not because he is a speedster. Logan as second, based on feats, not because he is Canadian. Hulk as third, because I love carver.

And X last, because....I don't know any reflex feats from him.

Originally posted by Smurph
I've been responding to this, which you gave the thumbs up /shrug

This thread has Hulk, Wolverine, Professor X and QS. I already gave my ranking as:



The reflexes issue is the reason why. So to answer your question re: X and Sue, it would come down to reflex feats.

to which Charles would have none.

Well, then there it is. I thought he might have picked up some in the Krakoa age, but none spring to mind.

I guess it seems absurd to assume that someone with categorically zero reflex feats would win a quickdraw.

Am interested in why you place Hulk at the bottom, actually. He had (in my mind) some reflex feats, no?

I guess because I think there's something to be said for keeping pace (and ultimately dominating) in mental combat against people who do have established reflexes (like Exodus).

It's a little more circumstantial than an outright quickdraw-style win, for the purpose of this thread, but it's more credit than I'd give Hulk - whose mind I imagine Exodus would just outpace.

Mind you, maybe that doesn't make sense because I don't think MMH's super speed would aid him in an astral battle with Chuck... idk, at some point the logic comes apart at the seams.

Originally posted by Smurph
I guess because I think there's something to be said for keeping pace (and ultimately dominating) in mental combat against people who do have established reflexes (like Exodus).

It's a little more circumstantial than an outright quickdraw-style win, for the purpose of this thread, but it's more credit than I'd give Hulk - whose mind I imagine Exodus would just outpace.

Mind you, maybe that doesn't make sense because I don't think MMH's super speed would aid him in an astral battle with Chuck... idk, at some point the logic comes apart at the seams.



Imagine a telepath of MMH's calibre....now imagine that telepath having genuine legit superspeed.

If a human telepath is supposedly FTL, faster than Quicksilver, the premier speedster in Marvel (fight me, Mungi!) imagine a speedster telepath like MMH. At this rate, he could solo Marvel and DC with a thoughtblitz!

I mean, ignoring pesky things like feats. I also wonder if there are levels to telepaths, like speedsters. Is Professor X faster than Psylocke? Or, like Hulk is Hulk (and non-canon is...proof), are thoughtspeeders all equal?

If I made a second thread, and had Emma/Jean/Professor X/Psylocke/Cassandra Nova, how would people rank them, based on feats/feelings?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


Imagine a telepath of MMH's calibre....

Marvin Flumm

As Stilt is here, I was always impressed by this:

https://i.imgur.com/G6hgnk9.png

Issue 51. Good stuff, yeah

Psylocke (Kwannon) should be the winner of that bunch, pretty easily imo.

But comics struggle to give her her due.

Originally posted by carver9
Good example imo... TPs imo just owns raw speed. The distance between QS and Jean is nothing by the way. He should be able to cover that instantly and he still got mind raped by Jean...


Full sequence (they were lucky Sue was there to save them):

https://i.postimg.cc/WFxj2HmK/RCO014-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/qhN4HTKy/RCO015-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/mPSbQVRz/RCO016-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/KKqxWz1m/RCO017-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WDbsSrb9/RCO018-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/754HGjvr/RCO019-1663852615.jpg

Raw speed pretty much phucked them over. And interestingly, QS previously in the issue was too fast to be detected by anyone - including Apocalypse, a telepath:
https://i.postimg.cc/PPWhjKC3/RCO010-1663852615.jpg

But don't worry, fans. Sue got her vengeance:
https://i.postimg.cc/hQFWF7cR/RCO017-1663847753.jpg

Good story, though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Full sequence (they were lucky Sue was there to save them):

https://i.postimg.cc/WFxj2HmK/RCO014-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/qhN4HTKy/RCO015-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/mPSbQVRz/RCO016-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/KKqxWz1m/RCO017-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WDbsSrb9/RCO018-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/754HGjvr/RCO019-1663852615.jpg

Raw speed pretty much phucked them over. And interestingly, QS previously in the issue was too fast to be detected by anyone - including Apocalypse, a telepath:
https://i.postimg.cc/PPWhjKC3/RCO010-1663852615.jpg

But don't worry, fans. Sue got her vengeance:
https://i.postimg.cc/hQFWF7cR/RCO017-1663847753.jpg

Good story, though.

The point of my scans was to show him blitzing towards her. She knocked him out. I get your point though.

It literally says that he did all that damage in the one second it took her to reach into his mind and shut him down.

Edit: cool (non-canon) feat of Sue shutting off Apoc's powers by blocking off his frontal lobe, though

Originally posted by Smurph
It literally says that he did all that damage in the one second it took her to reach into his mind and shut him down.

Edit: cool (non-canon) feat of Sue shutting off Apoc's powers by blocking off his frontal lobe, though

Plus - he's mind controlled, and was likely only there to kill Johnny (foreshadowed earlier in the issue).

It's nice though that Johnny was able to react before Jean, and then get stabbed, and his subsequent stabbing was reacted to by Sue, AND THEN Jean suddenly reacted and thought to put him to sleep.

Edit: oh she also blocks a full blast from Storm earlier, as they're trying to kill Venom/Carnage

Originally posted by Smurph
This is the part that I don't think is proven. Not really trying hard to prove anything. Just commenting. Originally posted by Smurph
Do we have any feats of Xavier just plainly outreacting speedsters? With their physical movements? I'd guess not? With thought based weapons that this thread entails? I dunno?

Seems to be a distinction that I'm just saying... kinda glossed over.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Imagine a telepath of MMH's calibre....now imagine that telepath having genuine legit superspeed. So regardless of whether you think MMH has better telepathy than Xavier... he could have worse for all we care... then MMH easily beats Xavier in telepathic battles because J'onn has displayed superspeed?

Is that what you're concluding?

Originally posted by ODG
Not really trying hard to prove anything. Just commenting. Fair enough. Pending proof though, that's the part of the argument you laid out (whether or not you're making it) that falls apart for me. Originally posted by ODG
With their physical movements? I'd guess not? With thought based weapons that this thread entails? I dunno?

Seems to be a distinction that I'm just saying... kinda glossed over. Just with his mutant powers. His brain is a thought-based weapon, after all.

Originally posted by Smurph
Fair enough. Pending proof though, that's the part of the argument you laid out (whether or not you're making it) that falls apart for me.

Just with his mutant powers. His brain is a thought-based weapon, after all. I never thought about it too much before these KMC threads, but I kinda accepted that Xavier thinks faster than normal because of his history that I have read. Never was something that I tried to pay attention to, but it is what came to mind immediately. I also understand how reductive/stupid that sounds: "Hurr durrr, he thinks fasterrrr..." but, yea.

Is that the premise that you don't agree with?

Originally posted by ODG
I never thought about it too much before these KMC threads, but I kinda accepted that Xavier thinks faster than normal because of his history that I have read. Never was something that I tried to pay attention to, but it is what came to mind immediately. I also understand how reductive/stupid that sounds: "Hurr durrr, he thinks fasterrrr..." but, yea.

Is that the premise that you don't agree with? I accept that he thinks faster than most characters, as a general premise. Much faster, even. But I pause at giving him the win in a quickdraw against, say, Sue Richards (whose powers are also activated at the speed of thought) based solely on his being a telepath or on tenuously connected feats like beaming his thoughts to Lilandra from Earth.

Reminds me too much of someone arguing that Starfire could blitz Psylocke because Tamaraneans can fly ftl - but in terms of actual Starfire combat speed feats, couldn't produce much at all.

Or like I told Goober in the other thread, I accept that the worlds smartest man has a more powerful brain (and higher 'computing' speeds) than an F1 driver, but on a quick draw under these stips, I'll take the driver.

Originally posted by Smurph
I accept that he thinks faster than most characters, as a general premise. Much faster, even. But I pause at giving him the win in a quickdraw against, say, Sue Richards (whose powers are also activated at the speed of thought) based solely on his being a telepath or on tenuously connected feats like beaming his thoughts to Lilandra from Earth.

Reminds me too much of someone arguing that Starfire could blitz Psylocke because Tamaraneans can fly ftl - but in terms of actual Starfire combat speed feats, couldn't produce much at all. I personally think someone like Xavier is really different from Sue Richards. Never tried to conflate the two. Xavier's telepathy is speed-quantified on multiple levels unlike Sue Richards.

Xavier can think much much faster than normal people. Quicksilver can move/think much much faster than normal people. Originally posted by Smurph
Or like I told Goober in the other thread, I accept that the worlds smartest man has a more powerful brain (and higher 'computing' speeds) than an F1 driver, but on a quick draw under these stips, I'll take the driver.
Gl rings are thought-based weapons. Not physical muscle-motor based weapons. So, an argument can be made for Xavier winning in this scenario. On the tangent that you bring up... Xavier has contended/defeated artificial CPU intelligence too. CPU intelligences that can process stuff far far far faster than normal humans, Are those feats of Xavier being given full faith and credit?

Originally posted by ODG
I personally think someone like Xavier is really different from Sue Richards. Never tried to conflate the two. Xavier's telepathy is speed-quantified on multiple levels unlike Sue Richards. Both powers manifest at the speed of the respective user's thought. So again I come back to the asking for a single reflex feat.

Originally posted by ODG
Xavier can think much much faster than normal people. Quicksilver can move/think much much faster than normal people.
Gl rings are thought-based weapons. Not physical muscle-motor based weapons. So, an argument can be made for Xavier winning in this scenario. Quicksilver's legs are thought-activated. He has to think, then move. Giving him a GL ring (and with all the stips in this thread: he doesn't need to come up with the image himself, he has equal training with the ring and just needs to create the construct that Emma "beams" into his head) just means that now all he has to do is think.

So if QS had an edge on Xavier when he had to think and then move, he should have that much more of an edge here.

Originally posted by ODG
On the tangent that you bring up... Xavier has contended/defeated artificial CPU intelligence too. CPU intelligences that can process stuff far far far faster than normal humans, Are those feats of Xavier being given full faith and credit? Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm reading the feats in bad faith. But in any event, you're welcome to make the argument.

Originally posted by Smurph
Both powers manifest at the speed of the respective user's thought. So again I come back to the asking for a single reflex feat. This strikes me as you begging the question. Are you denying that Xavier can think far faster than normal people like Quicksilver can think far faster than normal people? I figured we were beyond contesting such a premise. If you disagree, your protestations make more sense. If you don't, then... ???? Originally posted by Smurph
Quicksilver's legs are thought-activated. He has to think, then move. Giving him a GL ring (and with all the stips in this thread: he doesn't need to come up with the image himself, he has equal training with the ring and just needs to create the construct that Emma "beams" into his head) just means that now all he has to do is think. So we both agree that physical motor speed is meaningless here, it's about who "thinks" faster. This is what I've been positing the entire time???? Originally posted by Smurph
So if QS had an edge on Xavier Hold up.... I don't recall agreeing with this. Physically speaking? Sure. Comics mental telepathy speaking? Nah. This is just you assuming your conclusion. Originally posted by Smurph
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm reading the feats in bad faith. But in any event, you're welcome to make the argument. I think I've been making the same argument the entire time. Both Xavier and Quicksilver have feats of thinking far faster than normal people. And GL rings are thought-based weapons. I mean, if you disagree that Xavier can think far faster than normal people, ok? But btw you and I, you're insisting on your own assumption: Quicksilver can react faster, ergo Quicksilver wins w/ GL rings.

Yet, simple insistence is not an argument.

I've presented proof that Xavier thinks far faster than normal people. Apparently most people, not even you, even deign to argue against that proposition. So how is that so readily dismissed when the scenario involves thought-based weapons? We're not dealing with physically pulling triggers on pistols here. Dismiss my comments all you want. Just don't pretend like I'm the one (i) ignoring the thread stipulations, or (ii) on-panel feats.

I honestly am trying to bear down on both. I don't even have a horse in the race here, bruh.

Originally posted by ODG
This strikes me as you begging the question. Are you denying that Xavier can think far faster than normal people like Quicksilver can think far faster than normal people? I figured we were beyond contesting such a premise.

If you disagree, your protestations make more sense. If you don't, then... ???? So we both agree that physical motor speed is meaningless here, it's about who "thinks" faster. This is what I've been positing the entire time???? Xavier can think faster than Wolverine. Wolverine has faster mental reflexes than Xavier (pending proof of Xavier's mental reflexes, anyways).

Again, I view it was comparing travel/flight speed to fight speed.

Originally posted by ODG
Hold up.... I don't recall agreeing with this. Physically speaking? Sure. Comics mental telepathy speaking? Nah. This is just you assuming your conclusion. It's been a little unclear when you've been taking a position vs playing devil's advocate within the debate with Leo, but since both Leo and I seem to agree on that point, it didn't seem controversial.

So, in a forum fight: Xavier vs QS, both normal power sets. Bell rings. Who attacks first?

Originally posted by ODG
I think I've been making the same argument the entire time. Both Xavier and Quicksilver have feats of thinking far faster than normal people. And GL rings are thought-based weapons. I mean, if you disagree that Xavier can think far faster than normal people, ok? But btw you and I, you're insisting on your own assumption: Quicksilver can react faster, ergo Quicksilver wins w/ GL rings. Simple insistence isn't an argument.

I've presented proof that Xavier thinks far faster than normal people. Apparently most people, not even you, even deign to argue against that proposition. So how is that so readily dismissed when the scenario involves thought-based weapons? We're not dealing with physically pulling triggers on pistols here. Dismiss my comments all you want. Just don't pretend like I'm the one (i) ignoring the thread stipulations, or (ii) on-panel feats.

I honestly am trying to bear down on both. I don't even have a horse in the race here, bruh. I guess I can only respond to this by referring you back to what I just wrote, and telling you to "dismiss my comments all you want" but that "simple insistence isn't an argument".

Otherwise we can start from the 'normal' QS vs Xavier scenario and work backwards from there.

Originally posted by Smurph
Xavier can think faster than Wolverine. Wolverine has faster mental reflexes than Xavier Sorry but... I think this premise represents an impasse between us. Can't really move beyond this. I can intuit the reasons behind your insistence. I might even agree on a certain level as you might see below. But to bear down on it: GL rings can manifest constructs through both (i) purposeful thought, and (ii) instinctual reflex. Almost equally I think. Almost.

Because if Hal was pummeled during a fight and nearly on the verge of unconsciousness, he might not manifest strongly reinforced forcefields as quickly/strongly as he could if he were completely unharmed/unexhausted. In other words -- force of will made equal -- I'd argue Hal's GL constructs would manifest stronger if he wasn't punch-drunk.

This is just another way of suggesting that GL rings rely/require more (a) purposefully designed visualization, than (b) simply animal instinctual reflex. So Wolverine having more physically instinctual reflex (an assumption you've made against the foremost Marvel telepath but that I've accepted for purposes of argument?)? Even then, not exactly the deciding factor when it comes to a thought-based weapon like a GL ring.

I'll further expound on what I am thinking: assume both Wolverine/Quicksilver and Xavier are already on the astral plane aiming mentally projected pistols at each other's psychic manifestations. So, who'd win a quickdraw contest?

Are you that supremely confident that Wolverine/Quicksilver win just easily as they would in the real physical world where they're wielding physical pistols?

No? Well, if you are given pause (like me), this thread's scenario might not be as simple as quantifying real life motor reflexes. Which is my entire point.

Should we equate conscious motor-speed with thought speed? Might make sense in the actual real world. But in comics? Nah.

Originally posted by ODG
Sorry but... I think this premise represents an impasse between us. Can't really move beyond this. I can intuit the reasons behind your insistence. I might even agree on a certain level as you might see below. But to bear down on it: GL rings can manifest constructs through both (i) purposeful thought, and (ii) instinctual reflex. Almost equally I think. Almost.

Because if Hal was pummeled during a fight and nearly on the verge of unconsciousness, he might not manifest strongly reinforced forcefields as quickly/strongly as he could if he were completely unharmed/unexhausted. In other words -- force of will made equal -- I'd argue Hal's GL constructs would manifest stronger if he wasn't punch-drunk.

This is just another way of suggesting that GL rings rely/require more (a) purposefully designed visualization, than (b) simply animal instinctual reflex. So Wolverine having more physically instinctual reflex (an assumption you've made against the foremost Marvel telepath but that I've accepted for purposes of argument?)? Even then, not exactly the deciding factor when it comes to a thought-based weapon like a GL ring.

Look - first, Wolverine having "more physically instinctual reflexes" isn't an assumption that I've made. A) Wolverine has reflex feats aplenty and B) I keep qualifying my statements with "pending proof of Xavier's reflexes". It's a bit cute to refuse to provide a reflex feat and then tell me that I assumed something about X's reflexes but to be clear, I remain open to changing my mind pending that proof.

Second, more importantly, I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but it just doesn't seem relevant.

For one, the strength of their constructs aren't being tested in this thread, so I don't think it matters whether the rings are being driven by instinct or purposeful thought.

Moreover, Emma is beaming the ready-made visualization directly into their frontal cortexes (or wherever, I'm not a neurosurgeon) with the express purpose of equalizing that part of the task.

So this thread is just a contest of mental reflexes. The GL rings merely level the playing field in the sense that all powers manifest in the same way, and nobody gets physical advantages/disadvantages. This is noticeably different than changing the parameters of physics (and, reality) by moving the battle to the astral plane.

So it comes back to what I said: Xavier might think faster in a general sense, but Logan has faster mental reflexes. If you disagree, let's compare actual feats, yeah?

Also, maybe it might help if ODG could clarify what he thinks happens?

Emma flips the card. Beams the thought to all 4.

???

Character 1 has a construct. Followed by character 2/3/4.

Originally posted by Smurph
Look - first, Wolverine having "more physically instinctual reflexes" isn't an assumption that I've made. Maybe more my fault than your's, but that isn't what I said. Originally posted by Smurph
A) Wolverine has reflex feats aplenty and B) I keep qualifying my statements with "pending proof of Xavier's reflexes". It's a bit cute to refuse to provide a reflex feat and then tell me that I assumed something about X's reflexes but to be clear, I remain open to changing my mind pending that proof. I've never doubted Wolverine can physically react faster than Xavier. But you're conflating mental reflexes with physical reflexes. Have I ever accused you of stubbornly refusing to provide Wolverine's thought-speed reflexes/feats that exceed Xavier's? No. Because you're just arguing past me. Originally posted by Smurph
So it comes back to what I said: Xavier might think faster in a general sense, but Logan has faster mental reflexes. If you disagree, let's compare actual feats, yeah? See? There you go again. Faster mental physical reflexes, sure. But that's the assumption I've got an issue with.

You didn't comment on my astral plane quickdraw scenario. Ok... take a Shadow King-tutored Wolverine who can use telepathy equally as well due to a temporary (but stable) secondary mutation via MGH. Strap Logan and normal Xavier to dueling Cerebro helmets. Who wins a quickdraw contest?

If you continue to insist that Wolverine's faster physical reflexes outstrip Xavier's mental reflexes, I'll keep pointing to the fact that we're dealing with thought-based weapons here that are activated by thought, not physical movement.

Somehow, I'll continue to be blamed for that. Although, I'm not sure why? Somehow Xavier's ability to think vastly faster than non-telepaths isn't relevant to a thought-based weapon quickdraw.

But thoughts are still the product of physical processes. Neurons firing, chemicals being released, electrical impulses travelling etc. If Electro/Zzaxx/Jenny Sparks took all the electricity out of Xavier's head, he wouldn't be able to form thoughts.

Or can he? Comics being what they are, I wouldn't be surprised.....

You keep moving the goalposts.

Whether you call it physical or mental, a reflex requires an impulse. I know that corpses can still show the Lazarus reflex but in the ordinary sense of the word, a corpse's reflexes are nil.

So let's just compare reflex feats. If Wolverine's physical reflexes are faster than Xavier's mental reflexes, then it seems like it must hold true that Wolverine's mental reflexes are faster, no?

Originally posted by Smurph
You keep moving the goalposts. I kinda think you are. Originally posted by Smurph
Whether you call it physical or mental, a reflex requires an impulse. I know that corpses can still show the Lazarus reflex but in the ordinary sense of the word, a corpse's reflexes are nil. In the fictional worlds of comics, telepaths don't seem to abide by such rules. Originally posted by Smurph
So let's just compare reflex feats. If Wolverine's physical reflexes are faster than Xavier's mental reflexes, then it seems like it must hold true that Wolverine's mental reflexes are faster, no? I don't know why you keep insisting on assuming your conclusion with me. I also don't think you're doing it in bad faith either. But we're going in circles.

Maybe make a guess at the two hypotheticals I threw your way previously. Maybe your answers can shed more light on how this discussion isn't outright ignoring Xavier's ability to think vastly faster than non-telepaths.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But thoughts are still the product of physical processes. Neurons firing, chemicals being released, electrical impulses travelling etc. If Electro/Zzaxx/Jenny Sparks took all the electricity out of Xavier's head, he wouldn't be able to form thoughts.

Or can he? Comics being what they are, I wouldn't be surprised..... Why exactly should we be so beholden to how real world biology works? You put a giant green rage monster, a midget with a metal skeleton, a bald cripple who can think beyond galaxies, and given them pretty rings that shoot willpower.

Honestly, how much does real world human biology limit these characters? It sure would hella limit how fast Xavier thinks. But as we see in the fictional world of comics, not so much.

Originally posted by ODG
I kinda think you are. In the fictional worlds of comics, telepaths don't seem to abide by such rules. I don't know why you keep insisting on assuming your conclusion with me. I also don't think you're doing it in bad faith either. But we're going in circles.

Maybe make a guess at the two hypotheticals I threw your way previously. Maybe your answers can shed more light on how this discussion isn't outright ignoring Xavier's ability to think vastly faster than non-telepaths. Herein lies the irony.

Your starting premise is that Xavier thinks faster than non-telepaths. As I've explained, I accept that as a general truth, but when it comes to specific applications of that idea (ie faster reflexes for a "mental quick draw", I refer to feats. You keep evading a request for feats and tell me I'm assuming my conclusion. But how can I be the one assuming a conclusion when I'm saying let's just look at the feats?

Again: yes, Xavier thinks very fast. But as Batman infamously put it, who's faster: Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee? The speed feats that I recall for Xavier establish speed in the vein of Usain Bolt. I don't think that premise means that he automatically has faster reflexes (in any sense) than Wolverine. The same way I wouldn't accept that Starfire can blitz Spider-Man simply on the premise that Tamaraneans can fly ftl.

Originally posted by ODG
Why exactly should we be so beholden to how real world biology works? You put a giant green rage monster, a midget with a metal skeleton, a bald cripple who can think beyond galaxies, and given them pretty rings that shoot willpower.

Honestly, how much does real world human biology limit these characters? It sure would hella limit how fast Xavier thinks. But as we see in the fictional world of comics, not so much.

Hence my use of comics. If Jenny Sparks removes the electricity from Xavier's brain, can he still make thoughts? If Vulcan messes with the currents in a telepaths brain, can they still think?

Not talking about real world here. Talking about comics.

If the answer is no, then....it's clear that telepaths rely on electricity moving along neurons etc to think. Physical processes.

If the answer is yes, then....it's clear that telepaths don't need all of that, and are free of such pesky limitations. No physical processes.

Originally posted by Smurph
Herein lies the irony.

Your starting premise is that Xavier thinks faster than non-telepaths. As I've explained, I accept that as a general truth, but when it comes to specific applications of that idea (ie faster reflexes for a "mental quick draw", I refer to feats. You keep evading a request for feats and tell me I'm assuming my conclusion. But how can I be the one assuming a conclusion when I'm saying let's just look at the feats? But you're challenging me on and, insisting for, physical reflex feats. When really... physical reflex feats have little to do with thought-based weapons and speed. Originally posted by Smurph
Again: yes, Xavier thinks very fast. But as Batman infamously put it, who's faster: Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee? Neither of them are telepaths. And Batman wasn't commenting on a quickdraw challenge using thought-based weapons. He was very clearly talking about physical fighting.

At the risk of looking delicate, I honestly don't have a horse in this race. So I'm happy to bow out of this exchange. We're just talking past each other.
If you're insisting that I am unconsciously/consciously arguing in bad faith... ok, I guess I won't turn down a challenge. But it seems pointless. I'd like to advance to 3rd base but like... we're at homeplate on an 0-2 count arguing about what is and isn't a balk.

This don't seem like it'll go anywhere constructive.

Originally posted by ODG
But you're challenging me on and, insisting for, physical reflex feats. When really... physical reflex feats have little to do with thought-based weapons and speed. Nah, I'm asking for any reflex feat. No need to confine it to "physical reflex". Just whatever Xavier has got.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence my use of comics. If Jenny Sparks removes the electricity from Xavier's brain, can he still make thoughts? Isn't that a giant-sized IF that would essentially assume its conclusion?

What do you want me to say?

Yes, if Jenny Sparks attacks Xavier completely unaware and drains his brain of electrical impulses, game over. But that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other w/ guns and the contest is a quickdraw?? I'm not sure what'd happen. I'd guess Jenny Sparks has more feats with guns than Xavier given how old she is? So Jenny wins, I guess. But again that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other w/ Jenny's electric powers vs Xavier's telepathy in a quickdraw to phuck their brains? I'm not exactly sure what'd happen, but I might take Xavier more often than not given how weird comics measures the speed of telepathy. But again again that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other and asked to draw something with a purely thought-based weapon like a GL ring. I might be even more inclined to side with Xavier on that. That's what this thread is asking, isn't it? And I feel like Xavier's speed of thought is extremely relevant, if not determinative of this contest.

I feel like I'm being accused of fleeing from the thread topic yet I'm sitting here like... I think you guys are the ones going off-topic.

Originally posted by Smurph
Nah, I'm asking for any reflex feat. No need to confine it to "physical reflex". Just whatever Xavier has got. Not trying to be prevaricating because I do have an example that suddenly popped to mind -- was super obvious in retrospect -- but we do agree that comics telepathy and the speed at which comic telepaths Xavier thinks utterly defies physical biology? We agree on that, yes?

Originally posted by ODG
Not trying to be prevaricating because I do have an example that suddenly popped to mind -- was super obvious in retrospect -- but we do agree that comics telepathy and the speed at which comic telepaths Xavier thinks utterly defies physical biology? We agree on that, yes? Not trying to be prevaricating, but I don't think an answer could equally apply to all thinking processes. "Speed at which Character A thinks" has so many different meanings that it requires context. Again, smartest man on earth vs F1 driver.

But is Xavier capable of thinking speeds that defy biology? Yes. Agreed.

^ Ok, Danger is a Shiar A.I. mutant with cpu processing capabilities that I think, undoubtedly dwarf Wolverine's. Danger beat the phuck out of Wolverine together w/ the X-Men. Logan was particularly dismantled. Like, he didn't do crap even when the X-Men started changing things up.

Well, Xavier outfights Danger in pretty much every turn of their 1v1 fight. Especially so when he brings his telepathy into play. Not sure why I didn't draw upon this now. The initial scan I presented comes from that exact storyline.

I'll have to reread Astonishing because I forget the specifics of how the fight started. I do think that Whedon mostly wrote Logan as comic relief so I don't put a ton of stock in that comparison (better to compare high showings, I think) but I take the point.

From what I do recall, showings like that and Xavier vs Exodus lead me to believe that in an actual ring-slinging match against Logan, Xavier would quickly dominate him in terms of power, complexity, number of constructs... etc. I mean, I don't think that was ever really in question.

But (and again, admittedly without recalling all the specifics of the Danger showing) in the very specific thread parameters at hand, I don't think any of that leads to the conclusion that Xavier would reflexively form the Emma-card faster than Logan would

/shrug

^ Based on what I think your argumentation is trying to bear down on, you probably won't find much there anyway. But that's kind of my point?

Slightly off-base here: replace Xavier in this thread w/ Hal Jordan himself. Who wins this quickdraw GL ring contest? It strikes me as if the prevailing idea I'm railing against is that Logan has enhanced bio-physiology, so he would undeniably win against normal human Hal Jordan?

Even with Hal being a completely normal, non-telepathic human w/ zero comic science telepath biology phuckery, I'm just like... that don't exactly seem right. Nor would I anticipate that bearing out in comics... like at all.

How many aliens, or A.I., or higher forms of life, or friggin mathematical equations have been GLs? An enhanced bio-physiology ought to provide quicker trigger fingers, sure. In real life. But when has that ever been a meaningful factor in a GL ring-slinging contest in the comics? Should it? Maybe. Does it? I can't think of anything.

Back on-base here: Xavier isn't even a normal human. And he somehow thinks faster. Sure, it's dumb but it's also on-panel. To the point where I kinda think Xavier would beat Danger in this GL-ring quickdraw contest. Based on how he kinda sonned her in their 1v1 fight.

So what sort of superior opponent would Logan present in the face of that? We argue with the comics or against the comics. I'd like to think I'm arguing with the comics. But because I don't really have a horse in the race, it's possible I am missing the plainly obvious.

Also in that vein, like... clearly classic Psylocke with her ninja-training had much faster physical reflexes than a cripple like Xavier.

Has there ever been a scene in comics that suggests, "Someone needs to warn the X-Men Gold team of the danger once we disable these psi-blockers!"

"Xavier, can you-"

"No! Psylocke has better reflexes! She can communicate faster with the X-Men Gold squad than Xavier!"

/shrug

Originally posted by Smurph
I do think that Whedon mostly wrote Logan as comic relief so I don't put a ton of stock in that comparison (better to compare high showings, I think) You motherf- I just now noticed you trying to slide Wolverithmetics into this discussion! How dare you! crackers

I blame the beer for me not noticing at first.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7f/a5/ea/7fa5ea7213dca5517241800d30dea3dc.gif

Gdi, I'm getting drunk in my old age... belch

i'm not entirely sure what we agreed on...? we reached an impasse when you said a quickdraw between sue and a high end tp would come down to reaction feats. i get why you say that. but i disagree entirely and the discussion had become circular. the example of f1 vs genius is clever but...neither can process and transfer years of info in an hour or send their thoughts across the universe or expand someone's consciousness to a universal degree in an instant. so while clever, not apt. but neither of us is budging here so.... yeah. i get your point. but i don't agree with it. not in the particular case i've been discussing. *shrug*

^ we agreed that speedsters vs Xavier may be a different case

I then stated that as a given (more or less) when talking with ODG, and he took exception to the assumed conclusion, or w/e

Originally posted by ODG
Also in that vein, like... clearly classic Psylocke with her ninja-training had much faster physical reflexes than a cripple like Xavier.

Has there ever been a scene in comics that suggests, "Someone needs to warn the X-Men Gold team of the danger once we disable these psi-blockers!"

"Xavier, can you-"

"No! Psylocke has better reflexes! She can communicate faster with the X-Men Gold squad than Xavier!"

/shrug Not that I know of

But Psylocke definitely has the feats to suggest she could have performed better than Jean did to rapidly "sleep" Quicksilver, in Carver's scans

^ I guess it's appropriate to point out that I haven't really been paying attention to leonidas' or carver9's posts here. I've been more than amply engaged by you and Darksaint85.

But in passing over them, I thought I read those scans being debunked as alternate reality scans???

If not, what are Psylocke's feats that suggest she'd do better than Jean? Which, even if answered definitively, what are Psylocke's feats that suggest she'd do better than Xavier would've?

Yeah, they're alternate reality. I gesture to the scans by way of analogy, in response to your question, not as proof that Jean is a slow turtle.

I can post Psylocke stuff later, but she has plenty of reflex feats, including using psi to specifically amp her speed, as well as stuff like running up shrapnel. In a pure quickdraw between her and Xavier, failing to give "full faith and credit" to those feats because Xavier is a more powerful telepath would strike me as disingenuous.

^ All things considered equal, yes, not giving Psylocke the benefit of the doubt of her feats would be stupid.

It's just when it comes to quickdraw contests involving pure thought or thought-based weapons? The library of comics I've read has severely diminished (if not outright eliminated) the idea of relative biology-based physiological speed from being a factor. Does it make sense from a real life perspective? No. But, we ain't arguing real life, we're arguing comics. And comics make their own rules.

I mean, I agree, comics over biology. But giving highly skilled streets absurd reaction abilities is also part of the rules of comics.

Originally posted by ODG
^ All things considered equal, yes, not giving Psylocke the benefit of the doubt of her feats would be stupid.

Originally posted by ODG
It's just when it comes to quickdraw contests involving pure thought or thought-based weapons? The library of comics I've read has severely diminished (if not outright eliminated) the idea of relative biology-based physiological speed from being a factor. And... wherein the library of comics is the underlined portion?

I agree, if comics have decisively shown how this specific thread scenario plays out, then that's authoritative. But I kinda think you're overstating how much comics have severely diminished (much less eliminated) the possibilities here. I agree that it's not about real world biology, but comics have a lot to say about the relative ability of certain heroes to act absurdly fast in a quickdraw.

Originally posted by Smurph
And... wherein the library of comics is the underlined portion?

I agree, if comics have decisively shown how this specific thread scenario plays out, then that's authoritative. But I kinda think you're overstating how much comics have severely diminished (much less eliminated) the possibilities here. I agree that it's not about real world biology, but comics have a lot to say about the relative ability of certain heroes to act absurdly fast in a quickdraw. At the risk of being reductive, Xavier has contended with aliens, higher forms of life, A.I. and cosmic forces that should have faster physiological reflexes. But I honestly don't recall a single instance where Xavier was shut down because: "Haha, your simple human biology too slow." I could be proven wrong but I feel like it woulda been brought up by now. To me, it sorta flies in the face of mutant telepath history.

And then on the flipside, I can't think of a single GL comic where GLs that should have faster physiological reflexes because they're aliens, higher forms of life, A.I., mathematical equations (lol, but canon) have exploited this apparently supreme flaw in the greatest GL in history, Hal Jordan: "Haha, your simple human biology too slow." Has that come up, like ever? So conversely, it just flies in the face of GL history.

We got a biiiiiigggggg library of comics and neither you nor I can come up with something definitive. Hence my comment.

I just don't see it happening on-panel. Largely because I cannot recall seeing it on-panel. Which I guess is my own subjective measure of these kinds of hypotheticals.

That's why this is such an on-point illustration though.

"It only took one second for Jean Grey to reach Quicksilver's mind. To shut him down.

But so much damage had already been done -- damage we couldn't reverse."

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

https://i.postimg.cc/WFxj2HmK/RCO014-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/qhN4HTKy/RCO015-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/mPSbQVRz/RCO016-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/KKqxWz1m/RCO017-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/WDbsSrb9/RCO018-1663852615.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/754HGjvr/RCO019-1663852615.jpg

Raw speed pretty much phucked them over. And interestingly, QS previously in the issue was too fast to be detected by anyone - including Apocalypse, a telepath:
https://i.postimg.cc/PPWhjKC3/RCO010-1663852615.jpg

^ I mean... neither of them were wielding thought-based weapons tho? And the task to accomplish/shutdown was not to form a GL image, it was to attack/deflect a physical attack.

If they were both wielding Cerebro helmets where the attack was mentally-based, I think it's arguable that Jean would shut Quicksilver down before he could mentally attack innocents.

But I dunno, because of an alternate reality Quicksilver's feat, Wolverine could generate a GL image before Xavier could??? I'm definitely missing something here. There's this salient premise that connects everything together you guys have been arguing. And I am clearly missing it. But I'm past blaming myself for missing it.

I just kinda think it doesn't exist at all.

Jean was obviously wielding a thought based weapon. If her mind doesn't count, then neither could the X/Danger showing.

Maybe you're focused too much on imagining this thread as a mental battle? Or a ring slinging battle? In which one character out-speeding the other would seem out of place?

This is four characters racing mentally to complete a supremely simple task. All the complexity has been flattened, it's just a race to mentally push a button, with no interaction between the parties.

A bit like Jean reacting to push the sleep button but her mind moving relatively slower than Quicksilver's mind commanding his body to kill x2.

Originally posted by ODG
Isn't that a giant-sized IF that would essentially assume its conclusion?

What do you want me to say?

Yes, if Jenny Sparks attacks Xavier completely unaware and drains his brain of electrical impulses, game over. But that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other w/ guns and the contest is a quickdraw?? I'm not sure what'd happen. I'd guess Jenny Sparks has more feats with guns than Xavier given how old she is? So Jenny wins, I guess. But again that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other w/ Jenny's electric powers vs Xavier's telepathy in a quickdraw to phuck their brains? I'm not exactly sure what'd happen, but I might take Xavier more often than not given how weird comics measures the speed of telepathy. But again again that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other and asked to draw something with a purely thought-based weapon like a GL ring. I might be even more inclined to side with Xavier on that. That's what this thread is asking, isn't it? And I feel like Xavier's speed of thought is extremely relevant, if not determinative of this contest.

I feel like I'm being accused of fleeing from the thread topic yet I'm sitting here like... I think you guys are the ones going off-topic.

Ah, I think you misunderstood the point of my post, which may be entirely down to me.

I was NOT trying to introduce another variable, to compare Jenny's speed to X's. As you rightly point out, this is not the thread for that. What I was responding to, was your assertion that telepathy does not rely on physical processes.

Whilst I 100% agree with you, that telepathy has ZERO basis with RL science, in comics, telepathy still relies on biochemical processes, on electrical signals flowing between synapses etc. On physical processes. I think you and I both agree on this - for example, IF all the electricity is drained from Xavier's head, he isn't firing off any telepathic bolts across a room, let alone a galaxy. His brain relies on electricity.

So we agree telepathy relies on physical processes, still. And unless the electricity in X's head....is faster than the electricity in Logan's head, that's the same speed. We can extend this to other parts of the pathway - if Magneto controlled all the blood to flow away from his brain, can X still fire telepathy? I wager no, again. If a matter manipulator converted his neurons into marshmallow, he cannot think either.

In short, telepathy relies on physical processes. Which are the same speed. (unless there is proof otherwise, as Smurph says). Hulk has his gamma amped speed, Wolverine has his mutated speed, and QS is....QS. Not saying that X is the same level as RL human off the street, no. But he is human as much as Punisher, or Sue, or Jubilee et al are human - i.e. trained comic humans.

Originally posted by Smurph
^ we agreed that speedsters vs Xavier may be a different case

I then stated that as a given (more or less) when talking with ODG, and he took exception to the assumed conclusion, or w/e

Originally posted by Smurph
This is four characters racing mentally to complete a supremely simple task. All the complexity has been flattened, it's just a race to mentally push a button, with no interaction between the parties.

A bit like Jean reacting to push the sleep button but her mind moving relatively slower than Quicksilver's mind commanding his body to kill x2. But GL rings aren't activated by physical movement via a button press. They're activated by thought. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In short, telepathy relies on physical processes. Which are the same speed. I disagree with how you leap to that second premise. Again, it's assuming your conclusion.

Originally posted by ODG
But GL rings aren't activated by physical movement via a button press. They're activated by thought. I disagree with how you leap to that second premise. Again, it's assuming your conclusion.

I...just assume that the electricity in X's brain is the same as the electricity in Logan's.

Is it not, then?

Originally posted by ODG
But GL rings aren't activated by physical movement via a button press. They're activated by thought. It's a metaphor.

When I said that Jean was trying to push Quicksilver's "sleep" button, I wasn't referring to an actual button.

^ Oh, ok. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I...just assume that the electricity in X's brain is the same as the electricity in Logan's.

Is it not, then? Not sure how electricity matters here. Do I think Xavier's brain conducts some sort of mutated bio-electricity? No, not necessarily.

But somewhere along the path of Xavier's telepathy manifesting, something comic-sciencey happens that permits Xavier to process vast amounts of information at speeds that are impossible for simple human neurons to achieve. We have to accept it happens somehow. But until a comic book decides to specifically portray it, there's no point in torturing real life biological minutiae.

And again - we see that when it comes to having conversations, telepathic conversations, non-telepaths are capable of keeping up with telepaths. When a telepath downloads reams of information, battle tactics etc into their team-mates' minds, the non-telepaths are perfectly capable of processing and understanding said plans. Emma is able to dump languages into Storm/Wolverine's mind - they keep up pretty well. Logan can, with a thought, reach Emma telepathically no matter where she is. Reed can project his thoughts across galaxies to call Galactus. A depowered Surfer can call Legacy despite not having the power cosmic.

Rogue is able (another example) to gain the life memories and skills of people from a touch - are we suddenly going to argue she is a a speedster in her thinking as well?

Whilst you can handwave it away as 'comics', the problem here is that the other side of the coin can also be argued as 'comics'. Beast can have entire mental conversations with Jean, Storm and Jean can have entire shopping days out in the span of miliseconds - but that's not the telepath being faster, when conversing mentally, a normal comic book human would also be able to converse with a telepath with no issues. When it comes to reflexively acting on Emma's message and to tell the GL ring what to do, however, then reflex feats will come into play.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And again - we see that when it comes to having conversations, telepathic conversations, non-telepaths are capable of keeping up with telepaths. When a telepath downloads reams of information, battle tactics etc into their team-mates' minds, the non-telepaths are perfectly capable of processing and understanding said plans. Emma is able to dump languages into Storm/Wolverine's mind - they keep up pretty well. I would submit such results are the direct result of the telepath. Not a reflection of the non-telepath's brain capacities. Danger didn't want to be stuck in an extended conversation, Xavier forced her to be stuck in it. Current Thor gifting his powers onto Loki recently, is in no way a reflection of Loki's inherent worthiness.

What you're arguing now -- which oddly contradicts your prior arguments -- is mere association fallacy.

Originally posted by ODG
I would submit such results are the direct result of the telepath. Not a reflection of the non-telepath's brain capacities.

Or is it not just 'comics'?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or is it not just 'comics'? Hey, mang. I cannot tell what you're arguing anymore.

Somehow you think if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained. And I guess GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag. Ok, whatever.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between mutant telepaths, much less the supreme mutant telepath that Xavier represents.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between different GLs either (although this makes more sense to me than the former).

Somehow, I'm doing it wrong. Whatever, mang. I feel like we're all just going in circles. It's not interesting anymore.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Oh, ok. Cool. So that brings us back to: the Quicksilver showing is an illustration of two people (one, a telepath and one, a speedster) in a quickdraw to complete independent mental tasks.

Telepath task is to command "sleep"
Speedster task is to target and kill people

Speedster also has to perform the necessary physical actions before the Telepath completes her single task, but we're just focusing on the thinking part.

None of it is about RL biology. It's just what we see on the page in the comic. Jean detects something in his mind (and gets a bonus warning from Spider-Man) but she doesn't manage to think "sleep" sooner than his mind compels him to kill (which he does, twice).

So given that he had more tasks and carried them out, the only conclusion left is that his mind was moving faster off the cuff of the quickdraw.

Are we at least agreed that that's what happens in that scene?

Originally posted by ODG
Hey, mang. I cannot tell what you're arguing anymore.

Somehow you think if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained. And I guess GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag. Ok, whatever.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between mutant telepaths, much less the supreme mutant telepath that Xavier represents.

I cannot recall ever seeing such speed advantages manifest that way between different GLs either (although this makes more sense to me than the former).

Somehow, I'm doing it wrong. Whatever, mang. I feel like we're all just going in circles. It's not interesting anymore.

Well I started the thread hoping to see reaction feats from all. Instead, what I got was 'Professor X MUST be the fastest, because...otherwise, how could he stretch milliseconds of time out into hours/days??'

Answer: no, it's comics. Same way Moira can.

'How else can Professor X be able to project his thoughts out into space and still get the message out in time??'

Answer: comics. Same way Reed can.

'How else can Professor X process such large amounts of infomation?? He must have superfast brain!!'

Answer: comics. Same way Rogue can process entire life memories and skills in a second. Same way any non-telepath can understand what the telepath is telling them (such as in this case, Emma telling them it is an apple/bicycle/fish).

You simultaneously argue/imply that we should follow things to their conclusion (Professor X can do X, and Y, therefore Z, because comics) whilst arguing....we shouldn't (Speedster telepaths can do X, and Y, does that mean, dear Darksaint85, that Z?? Lollers!')?

Why don't mutant telepaths have such clear speed advantages over each other? Comics. Same way, as you say:



I DID ask you what you thought the process here was - but didn't get an answer (it was probably lost in the ether, tbh). And I DID ask for actual reflex feats from X, but Leo kinda fell flat in that regard.

mmm

How do we think this thread goes between Reed and Xavier?

Originally posted by ODG
I would submit such results are the direct result of the telepath.

What you're arguing now -- which oddly contradicts your prior arguments -- is mere association fallacy.



yep. you've run through all the same thought processes i have in the course of this discussion man. lol

Originally posted by Smurph
Cool. So that brings us back to: the Quicksilver showing is an illustration of two people (one, a telepath and one, a speedster) in a quickdraw to complete independent mental tasks. Ummm... I thought I made this clear beforehand but I'll be very blunt now: I could honestly care less about an alternate reality Quicksilver's superspeed feat. It's an illustration of what you'd like to project onto this scenario involving 616 Quicksilver and 616 Xavier w/ thought-based weapons. But it's about as irrelevant as me posting an alternate reality Thor snapping Hulk's neck in a What If? during a 616 Hulk vs 616 Thor wrestling thread debate.

Why would you return to these scans??? They're utterly meaningless. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well I started the thread hoping to see reaction feats from all. Yes, I realize that. You want to pigeonhole and focus on physical reflex feats and reject all thought speed feats from the conversation. I get it. I just don't agree with it.

I kinda don't understand why you won't simply declare that GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag (which makes more sense to me). But this thread don't even deal with that... it deals with the greatest mutant telepath in Marvel in a drawing contest.

So why you won't stand behind your own reasoning and just openly declare that if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained?

Just say it. And if you do, it's not like I got some secret plan or ace up my sleeve. I just realize that if you truly believe that, there's simply no further discussion to be had between us. We just disagree. That's ok, mang.

Originally posted by ODG
Ummm... I thought I made this clear beforehand but I'll be very blunt now: I could honestly care less about an alternate reality Quicksilver's superspeed feat. It's an illustration of what you'd like to project onto this scenario involving 616 Quicksilver and 616 Xavier w/ thought-based weapons. But it's about as irrelevant as me posting an alternate reality Thor snapping Hulk's neck in a What If? during a 616 Hulk vs 616 Thor wrestling thread debate.

Why would you return to these scans??? They're utterly meaningless. no Because, you said Originally posted by ODG

I just don't see it happening on-panel. Largely because I cannot recall seeing it on-panel. Which I guess is my own subjective measure of these kinds of hypotheticals. and you asked me to opine on hypotheticals if we changed the facts in various ways.

I'm not saying this is canon to 616 Jean. I'm saying: are we agreed that this is an illustration of type of thing you say would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history"?

In other words: yes, this is not 616. And you're saying it wouldn't align with how thinking speed is depicted in 616. Right?

Originally posted by Smurph
Because, you said and you asked me to opine on hypotheticals if we changed the facts in various ways.

I'm not saying this is canon to 616 Jean. I'm saying: are we agreed that this is an illustration of type of thing you say would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history"?

In other words: yes, this is not 616. And you're saying it wouldn't align with how thinking speed is depicted in 616. Right? I'm pretty positive that I never invited anybody to post alternate reality scans during this discussion. Much less alternate reality scans that don't even involve thought-based weapons and don't even involve one of the two contestants in this actual thread whose mental speed is off the charts.

I guess I'll blame that on myself? Apparently this is all my fault. grumpy

Yeah, nobody's arguing about canonicity.

Your argument is premised in part on what would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history". I'm trying to clarify what you meant by way of an example.

Is this an example of the kind of thing that would fly in the face of mutant telepath history?

Originally posted by ODG
Ummm... I thought I made this clear beforehand but I'll be very blunt now: I could honestly care less about an alternate reality Quicksilver's superspeed feat. It's an illustration of what you'd like to project onto this scenario involving 616 Quicksilver and 616 Xavier w/ thought-based weapons. But it's about as irrelevant as me posting an alternate reality Thor snapping Hulk's neck in a What If? during a 616 Hulk vs 616 Thor wrestling thread debate.

Why would you return to these scans??? They're utterly meaningless. Yes, I realize that. You want to pigeonhole and focus on physical reflex feats and reject all thought speed feats from the conversation. I get it. I just don't agree with it.

I kinda don't understand why you won't simply declare that GL Stel could easily outspeed GL Hal Jordan in any aspect of GL ring-slinging since he's an advanced alien robot and not a human fleshbag (which makes more sense to me). But this thread don't even deal with that... it deals with the greatest mutant telepath in Marvel in a drawing contest.

So why you won't stand behind your own reasoning and just openly declare that if Psylocke and Xavier both wore GL rings, Psylocke could draw sh1t faster than Xavier cuz she ninja-trained?

Just say it. And if you do, it's not like I got some secret plan or ace up my sleeve. I just realize that if you truly believe that, there's simply no further discussion to be had between us. We just disagree. That's ok, mang.

It's.... what I'm saying.

Psylocke would win in a quickdraw, all things being equal.
One could argue Xavier winning based on his mental battle feats, perhaps (e.g. against Exodus), but assuming both sides had equal experience and skill, Psylocke would be faster.

With the GLs, it's comics, man. Hal would always come out top.

Against Guy, now, that's a different matter. Originally posted by leonidas
yep. you've run through all the same thought processes i have in the course of this discussion man. lol

Yeah, you ended when you realised you didn't have any reflex feats. Not throwing shade, it is what it is.

why on earth would i throw out reflex feats when i don't think it's reflex related?? *facepalm* i've said ALL ALONG that the outcome of a quickdraw using PURELY thought based powers should stand on speed of thought feats. tp's have TONS of them. you disagreed and said the winner of a quick draw between two people using PURELY thought based powers is based on biology and reflex. fine. but then you swapped goalposts and asked ME to provide reflex feats? i mean really?? lol why in stan's name would i provide proof for something i never said, nor couldn't disagree with more?? tp's have uber thought speed. hence--as i've said 100 times--i think they should win a quickdraw where speed of thought is the only deciding factor.

but, but, but, but...... but nothing. with the exception of speedsters who CAN and HAVE increased thought speed, against anyone else i'll STILL give the edge to a high end tp. again--as i've also said 100 times--it is no more complicated than that. i sound like a broken record by now and the discussion has gone exactly nowhere. THAT is why i quit.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, nobody's arguing about canonicity.

Your argument is premised in part on what would fly in the face of "mutant telepath history". I'm trying to clarify what you meant by way of an example.

Is this an example of the kind of thing that would fly in the face of mutant telepath history? For me? Yes. Xavier is a cripple. Emma Frost is in extremely good physical health/shape. Jean is a supremely athletic young lady due to constant training. Psylocke/Kwannon is straight-up ninja trained to be peak human or beyond.

But I would never think Emma, Jean or Psylocke would ever defeat a cripple Xavier in a quickdraw telepath contest. Because the comics I have read do not suggest so. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Psylocke would win in a quickdraw, all things being equal.
One could argue Xavier winning based on his mental battle feats, perhaps (e.g. against Exodus), but assuming both sides had equal experience and skill, Psylocke would be faster.

With the GLs, it's comics, man. Hal would always come out top. Ok, well. I said what I said.

You think Psylocke outspeeds Xavier in a telepathy contest because her ninja training over his cripple state.

But conversely you believe GL Stel loses to GL Hal in a quick drawing contest despite his advanced alien A.I. composition over Hal's fleshbagginess.

I see a stark contradiction. But you don't. So we don't really have anywhere else to progress constructively from here. I have my opinion and you have your's.

Originally posted by ODG
For me? Yes. Xavier is a cripple. Emma Frost is in extremely good physical health/shape. Jean is a supremely athletic young lady due to constant training. Psylocke/Kwannon is straight-up ninja trained to be peak human or beyond.

But I would never think Emma, Jean or Psylocke would ever defeat a cripple Xavier in a quickdraw telepath contest. Because the comics I have read do not suggest so. I guess this is where you lose me. Looking at that scene (again, not as proof--it's not 616--but just because it's easier to pin down the disconnect with an actual example rather than hypotheticals) I see the issue as that Pietro's super speed made his reflexes faster, despite Jean being a telepath. Her body never factored in, so I'm lost as to why her physical fitness would have mattered. Her task was purely telepathic.

Psylocke is just a particular example of a telepath and a ninja/highly skilled MA. Two attributes that tend to lead to higher reflexes. In comics, a high enough level of skill almost becomes a spider sense. The amount of evidence we could muster to prove that telepathy improves reflexes would be a molehill compared to the mountain of evidence that skill improves reflexes.

Also, for whatever it's worth, Xavier was out of his wheelchair for the majority of the 80s, most of the 00s, and again since 2017 and through the whole Krakoa era. And the dude was weirdly fit whether he was in or out of the chair. He just doesn't have reflex feats because they're not his thing. And if they're not his thing, why would he get the advantage over Wolverine or Quicksilver in a pure contest of simple reflexes?

Anyways, yeah, this has gone in circles.

Imo, all of the proof that your and Leo's positions rely on just establish that telepaths tend to have more powerful minds - which does include thinking speed. But none of that is proof that telepaths automatically have heightened mental reflexes.

If I have two cars, and I know that Car A has a vastly higher top speed, and even better handling at high speeds, then I can safely say that Car A is the faster car. But if the contest is just which engine can turn over and go from 0 to 60 the quickest, then I need to know more about how the cars compare in terms of acceleration.

It's a rare gap in Prof X's catalogue of mental feats, but I think Quicksilver and Wolverine definitely have more proof in that very specific respect.

Originally posted by Smurph
I guess this is where you lose me. Looking at that scene (again, not as proof--it's not 616--but just because it's easier to pin down the disconnect with an actual example rather than hypotheticals) I see the issue as that Pietro's super speed made his reflexes faster, despite Jean being a telepath. Her body never factored in, so I'm lost as to why her physical fitness would have mattered. Her task was purely telepathic.

Psylocke is just a particular example of a telepath and a ninja/highly skilled MA. Two attributes that tend to lead to higher reflexes. In comics, a high enough level of skill almost becomes a spider sense. The amount of evidence we could muster to prove that telepathy improves reflexes would be a molehill compared to the mountain of evidence that skill improves reflexes.

Also, for whatever it's worth, Xavier was out of his wheelchair for the majority of the 80s, most of the 00s, and again since 2017 and through the whole Krakoa era. And the dude was weirdly fit whether he was in or out of the chair. He just doesn't have reflex feats because they're not his thing. And if they're not his thing, why would he get the advantage over Wolverine or Quicksilver in a pure contest of simple reflexes? Bruh. Seems like your's and Darksaint85's whole point is that someone with faster physical speed/reflexes is the same as someone with faster mental speed/reflexes.

So in your estimation, why wouldn't the ranking be: cripple Xavier <<< fit Emma <<< super athletic Jean <<< ninja trained Psylocke?

Xavier's vastly superior telepathic/mental speed feats, be damned.

That's why you both put a non-telepath like Wolverine over Xavier in this particular thread scenario, after all?

Darksaint85 owned the ultimate conclusion to be derived from your reasoning. Seems you do as well. So what are you even arguing anymore?

Originally posted by ODG
Bruh. Seems like your's and Darksaint85's whole point is that someone with faster physical speed/reflexes is the same as someone with faster mental speed/reflexes.

So in your estimation, why wouldn't the ranking be: cripple Xavier <<< fit Emma <<< super athletic Jean <<< ninja trained Psylocke?

Xavier's vastly superior telepathic/mental speed feats, be damned.

That's why you both put a non-telepath like Wolverine over Xavier in this particular thread scenario, after all?

Darksaint85 owned the ultimate conclusion to be derived from your reasoning. Seems you do as well. So what are you even arguing anymore? No, none of that matches up with what I've been saying for pages.

Look, I was able to have an actual conversation with Leo to identify the specific impasse at which we disagree. With you, it's just been a series of accusations about logical fallacies that you're actively trading in, and a failure to engage with the point in dispute.

Anyways, ya, we disagree.

Originally posted by Smurph
With you, it's just been a series of accusations about logical fallacies that you're actively trading in, and a failure to engage with the point in dispute. https://64.media.tumblr.com/a375ababd67aebd083aba0c582dfd9d4/tumblr_mgmp0qdplt1rkffv3o1_500.gif

Ok? Apparently it has been all my fault. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
yep. you've run through all the same thought processes i have in the course of this discussion man. lol You share the blame too. You musta triggered dem somehow.

Originally posted by ODG
For me? Yes. Xavier is a cripple. Emma Frost is in extremely good physical health/shape. Jean is a supremely athletic young lady due to constant training. Psylocke/Kwannon is straight-up ninja trained to be peak human or beyond.

But I would never think Emma, Jean or Psylocke would ever defeat a cripple Xavier in a quickdraw telepath contest. Because the comics I have read do not suggest so. Ok, well. I said what I said.

You think Psylocke outspeeds Xavier in a telepathy contest because her ninja training over his cripple state.

But conversely you believe GL Stel loses to GL Hal in a quick drawing contest despite his advanced alien A.I. composition over Hal's fleshbagginess.

I see a stark contradiction. But you don't. So we don't really have anywhere else to progress constructively from here. I have my opinion and you have your's.

With all things being equal - so Stel's GL training would need to override Hal's/Hal's natural giftedness (i.e. 'comics, man'). Psylocke's ninja training needing to override X's experience/training with telepathy.

Which I overrode in this thread with all contestants having the same experience/training/skill with the GL ring. In THAT example, should Stel and Hal be in this thread, Stel would win, if he has the reflex feats. I mean, he should, being a robot and Hal being a fleshbag, but somehow, comic humans have the reflex feats to prove this wrong ('comics, man').

So yeah, it's down to feats as I keep saying.

If Xavier has none, then....he has none. If I used similar logic with say, Superman, Carver would crucify me, and rightly so. 'Hey, look, this is proof Superman has super fast reflexes as he has a conversation with Lois Lane !!!' 'DS....erm...how is it a feat when Lois is easily keeping up with him??'

It's almost as if none of these feats being given to X, are actually speed feats, and any character could do them.

Originally posted by Smurph
I guess this is where you lose me. Looking at that scene (again, not as proof--it's not 616--but just because it's easier to pin down the disconnect with an actual example rather than hypotheticals) I see the issue as that Pietro's super speed made his reflexes faster, despite Jean being a telepath. Her body never factored in, so I'm lost as to why her physical fitness would have mattered. Her task was purely telepathic.

Psylocke is just a particular example of a telepath and a ninja/highly skilled MA. Two attributes that tend to lead to higher reflexes. In comics, a high enough level of skill almost becomes a spider sense. The amount of evidence we could muster to prove that telepathy improves reflexes would be a molehill compared to the mountain of evidence that skill improves reflexes.

Also, for whatever it's worth, Xavier was out of his wheelchair for the majority of the 80s, most of the 00s, and again since 2017 and through the whole Krakoa era. And the dude was weirdly fit whether he was in or out of the chair. He just doesn't have reflex feats because they're not his thing. And if they're not his thing, why would he get the advantage over Wolverine or Quicksilver in a pure contest of simple reflexes?

Yeah, one of similar examples: When you put Brainiac or MMH against some top speedsters, like say, Barry/Wally/Superman in a contest of who active the GL ring first, do people think they can outspeed these speedsters?

MMH based on his telepathy feat against Perpetua. Brainiac based on the super-smart/brain ability(like the one he recently seems to get)

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So Brainiac has absorbed all the knowledge of time, space, and the Multiverse, according to the preview
https://aiptcomics.com/ezoimgfmt/i0.wp.com/aiptcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Action-Comics-1066-2.jpg?w=1248&ssl=1&ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb4

Feel free to change Brainiac to Batman or any other super-smart characters

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yeah, one of similar examples: When you put Brainiac or MMH against some top speedsters, like say, Barry/Wally/Superman in a contest of who active the GL ring first, do people think they can outspeed these speedsters?

MMH based on his telepathy feat against Perpetua. Brainiac based on the super-smart/brain ability(like the one he recently seems to get)



Feel free to change Brainiac to Batman or any other super-smart characters

How about Lex?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How about Lex?
Or Waller
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Interesting
Lex was able to erase Brainiac's intelligence, which is just previous stated it stored all the knowledge of time/space and the Multiverse, though it seems to cost his intelligence greatly.
But according to Brainiac, this process should kill even Lena whose intelligence is beyond 12th level intelligence/has no limits even for 12th level intelligence

Also, curious to hear people thoughts about this kind of intelligence feats compare to speed feats? It definitely seems to look like it ties to brain processing speed, as Brainiac's mind has problems to process all these information(but still can act normally in most occassions), and Lex was able to process and erase these knowledge
https://ibb.co/2gMBkNg
https://ibb.co/g4wJCqB
https://ibb.co/zN2BJ5k
https://ibb.co/T4hFSp1
https://ibb.co/sJ3hQ1B
https://ibb.co/85CG5Fp
https://ibb.co/bmLJWcL
https://ibb.co/S5Y8KbN
https://ibb.co/34Hgr5X
https://ibb.co/Xpx90d3
https://ibb.co/SsLjj5j
https://ibb.co/5BfysdG

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Amanda Waller also lived 20 years' worth of time, accelerated and compressed into 20 hours. That's quite the mind speed feat.

DC, are you reading KMC?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yep
https://ibb.co/xGSyT2G
https://ibb.co/5sHY5Xx
https://ibb.co/Tr626sv

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which I overrode in this thread with all contestants having the same experience/training/skill with the GL ring. In THAT example, should Stel and Hal be in this thread, Stel would win, if he has the reflex feats. I mean, he should, being a robot and Hal being a fleshbag, but somehow, comic humans have the reflex feats to prove this wrong ('comics, man'). So you admit that in a quickdraw contest, Hal wins over Stel because of "comics, man" but you haven't pointed to a single Hal mental speed feat to support that opinion.

Yet, you take me to task when I suggest Xavier's mental speed would be a significant factor here... Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's almost as if none of these feats being given to X, are actually speed feats, and any character could do them. So Xavier who can out-think Danger, Dark Phoenix, 1/5 Phoenix Namor, 1/2 Phoenix Scott, Nimrod, etc. Xavier somehow has no mental speed feats? Any character could do the same? I mean... despite all those foes who have physically/mentally wrecked the crap out of characters like Wolverine? Well...

https://media1.tenor.com/m/OTuwpUuuFCEAAAAC/lebowskiopinion-my-opinion.gif

Originally posted by leonidas
yat has super speed, right? has anyone ever seen him create constructs faster than anyone else?

I don't think I've even seen him use his speed, actually. Though I'd say half his appearances I've read were him without Daxamite powers(or at least only partially powered, when initially on Earth, for those powerless appearances).

Originally posted by ODG
So you admit that in a quickdraw contest, Hal wins over Stel because of "comics, man" but you haven't pointed to a single Hal mental speed feat to support that opinion.

Yet, you take me to task when I suggest Xavier's mental speed would be a significant factor here... So Xavier who can out-think Danger, Dark Phoenix, 1/5 Phoenix Namor, 1/2 Phoenix Scott, Nimrod, etc. Xavier somehow has no mental speed feats? Any character could do the same? I mean... despite all those foes who have physically/mentally wrecked the crap out of characters like Wolverine? Well...

https://media1.tenor.com/m/OTuwpUuuFCEAAAAC/lebowskiopinion-my-opinion.gif

Yeah, I was talking about the feats that had been posted so far - bring those other feats in, and now we have a thread.