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Both characters are fighting IN character but fighting to win.

Scenario 1 : Invisible Woman vs FP Kuurth

Scenario 2: Invisible Woman vs Serpent only Kuurth

The first one is a stomp in Kuurth's favor, I can't recall the second.

don't see how sue beats classic juggs let alone either of these versions. :/

No internal organs, BFR is turned off by default as he always returns - the only hope for Sue is to hide until.....he gets bored? Gets recalled?

Kuurth wins both scenarios, handily.

^ DS' wife posting from his KMC account

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
^ DS' wife posting from his KMC account "Now Namor, now THAT'S a true powerhouse..."

Kuurth, especially that FP one. Sue could probably stay out of his way though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
"Now Namor, now THAT'S a true powerhouse..."

Originally posted by basilisk
Kuurth, especially that FP one. Sue could probably stay out of his way though.
Kuurth can fly :
https://i.postimg.cc/Y48rFWdk/7197818-flight2.jpg
and he can run fast enough to catch a speedster :
https://i.postimg.cc/SXmQjr7D/7197812-catchesuptononstop.png
He also has ranged options, if he flings his hammer at her, especially the FP version with the unstoppable enchantment, I have a feeling she dies horribly.
https://i.postimg.cc/qhRkxvFK/7197825-unstoppablehammer.png

Zop, it's 2024.

And somehow your scans are inferior to the original ones from 2011.

Never be lazy when you want to rep someone.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Zop, it's 2024.

And somehow your scans are inferior to the original ones from 2011.

Never be lazy when you want to rep someone.
They'll have to do. I don't think we'll be seeing Kuurth or the other Worthy again anytime soon. Just wanted to gauge the forums opinion on Sue vs a High Herald with great durability and decent power output.

Originally posted by zopzop
They'll have to do.

https://i.ibb.co/HDX1Tvv/tenor.gif

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/HDX1Tvv/tenor.gif
LOL. Now back to the thread, do you think she has a chance against either verion of Kuurth?

I liked Sue the most back when she was the least useful member of F4, constantly scared of all those massive cocks gathering around her.

That should answer your question.

You've changed my mind, Zop.

IW bubbles him and incapacitates him for a forum win.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
constantly scared of all those massive cocks gathering around her.

Zop:
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/1ae72a_1d2a68896b5a483297f8d66fb7ebfbdd~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_469,h_352,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/1ae72a_1d2a68896b5a483297f8d66fb7ebfbdd~mv2.png

Welcome back, DS.

Wouldn't classify Kuurth as just a high Herald tbh.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Welcome back, DS.

Her forcefields have stood up to Merged Sentry and the entire Cancerverse hitting them several times, whilst spread out over a planet.

She has stood up to Cormorant, who was so powerful Franklin burnt himself out hitting him (and was only mildly amused).

She withstood ground zero of the last Incursion for a couple of seconds (I have been told that an Incursion is two universes colliding).

At her strongest bubble, focussed, Kuurth isn't coming out of that.

Originally posted by zopzop
Kuurth can fly :
https://i.postimg.cc/Y48rFWdk/7197818-flight2.jpg
and he can run fast enough to catch a speedster :
https://i.postimg.cc/SXmQjr7D/7197812-catchesuptononstop.png
He also has ranged options, if he flings his hammer at her, especially the FP version with the unstoppable enchantment, I have a feeling she dies horribly.
https://i.postimg.cc/qhRkxvFK/7197825-unstoppablehammer.png

Speedsters?

Sue can stop Quicksilver, who even at this point has better feats than Nonstop:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/7409146-img_20200605_225840.jpg

Flier?

Sue can redirect Thor midflight, and he and Mjolnir have better feats than Kuurth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speedsters?

Sue can stop Quicksilver, who even at this point has better feats than Nonstop:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/7409146-img_20200605_225840.jpg

Flier?

Sue can redirect Thor midflight, and he and Mjolnir have better feats than Kuurth.
I mean, even Magneto has affected Mjolnir but he was powerless vs FP Kuurth's hammer and needed to be saved by Kitty.

IMHO, Kuurth will pound away on her forcefields and he'll eventually break through or she'll exhaust herself long before he does leaving her open to getting KO/killed.

Originally posted by zopzop
I mean, even Magneto has affected Mjolnir but he was powerless vs FP Kuurth's hammer and needed to be saved by Kitty.

IMHO, Kuurth will pound away on her forcefields and he'll eventually break through or she'll exhaust herself long before he does leaving her open to getting KO/killed. how would kuurth cope with an attack like this iyo?


https://i.postimg.cc/9F6Ss7rV/0.jpg


she also shielded from a mad celestials attack, which is something even franklin was pressed to do.

Originally posted by zopzop
I mean, even Magneto has affected Mjolnir but he was powerless vs FP Kuurth's hammer and needed to be saved by Kitty.

IMHO, Kuurth will pound away on her forcefields and he'll eventually break through or she'll exhaust herself long before he does leaving her open to getting KO/killed.

She held a forcefield up over an entire city for a day:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/7408680-rco017_1468858871.jpg

An entire planet was shielded and hidden from the Sentry:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11139/111391579/7408394-rco011_1576677178.jpg

Was able to hide a Moon sized area:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/7225815-img_20200129_182806.jpg

And casually made thousands of cubic miles invisible, for sixteen hours straight, for three consecutive days:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/9087579-9013819-fantasticfour006%282023%29%28digital%29%28zone-empire%29-009.jpg
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/9087580-9013821-fantasticfour006%282023%29%28digital%29%28zone-empire%29-014-1.jpg

So I guess it all depends what we in the forum define as immobilisation. If Spidey buries the Juggernaut in cement and he takes days to free himself, is that a win for Spidey?

If someone buries Thor under an avalanche, under tons of rocks, and he is unable to get out, how long does his opponent stand around for? A 10-count? A minute? An hour? Two? Five?

If Sue can casually, whilst playing I Spy etc maintain forcefields up for 16 hours a day over thousands of cubic miles, a Kuurth-sized forcefield for...10 minutes, say, would be easy.

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
how would kuurth cope with an attack like this iyo? Tbf, the specific type of energy that Sue's abilities derive from have previously been described as, essentially, the equivalent of Celestial Kryptonite.

Dunno if that 'origin' has been retconned in more recent times(?), but if some random thug shot Superman with a k-nite bullet, I certainly wouldn't consider it a high feat for the thug. /shrug

Originally posted by DeadpoolXXX
she also shielded from a mad celestials attack, which is something even franklin was pressed to do. Nah. Even kid Franklin's 'shields' did just fine against an attack from one of the Mad Celestials, when he was actually trying:
https://ibb.co/C8CZqxb
https://ibb.co/MRSZ7Qb



Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She held a forcefield up over an entire city for a day:

An entire planet was shielded and hidden from the Sentry:

Was able to hide a Moon sized area:

And casually made thousands of cubic miles invisible, for sixteen hours straight, for three consecutive days: True, but it is all dependent on the amount of direct/localized stress being placed on her shielding at any given time... Like when Sue mentioned that not even her FF could endure repeated strikes from Mjolnir:
https://ibb.co/NpPyHRk

So Kuurth likely would break through her shields. How long it would take, however, is a different discussion.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So I guess it all depends what we in the forum define as immobilisation. If Spidey buries the Juggernaut in cement and he takes days to free himself, is that a win for Spidey?

If someone buries Thor under an avalanche, under tons of rocks, and he is unable to get out, how long does his opponent stand around for? A 10-count? A minute? An hour? Two? Five?

If Sue can casually, whilst playing I Spy etc maintain forcefields up for 16 hours a day over thousands of cubic miles, a Kuurth-sized forcefield for...10 minutes, say, would be easy.

That is something that probably should be better-defined in the rules. I'm fully open to opinions here.

I would say Kuurth hammer can break the shield instantly.
Why?
Magneto couldn't stop the hammer.
Is Sue's power significantly beyond Magneto power?
She is better off becoming invisible and being evasive while trying to put him down.

You assume she makes a dome that is of a fixed shape. She can make an amorphous blobby one that takes the sting out of his swings:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8233486-rco012_1473741528.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
I would say Kuurth hammer can break the shield instantly.
Why?
Magneto couldn't stop the hammer.
Is Sue's power significantly beyond Magneto power?
She is better off becoming invisible and being evasive while trying to put him down.

As for direct comparisons to Magneto:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8725218-screenshot_2022-11-17-20-05-09-26_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12-1-1.jpg

The group, btw, is: Professor X, Storm, Human Torch, Iceman, Thing, Bishop, Pyro, Mister Fantastic, Kitty Pryde and a weakened Franklin Richards .

And she saves Magneto in another issue:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
X-men Vol 3 #19.

https://i.postimg.cc/bdq00pvW/RCO009.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/hf59qm0R/RCO011.jpg

Later on, Sue contains Doom's magic in a bubble (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8233499-rco019.jpg), but not before blocking the big bad (who is able to easily capture Magneto):
https://i.postimg.cc/GhPq4Sp6/RCO017.jpg

No shade on Magneto, though. That baddie is powered by an entire planet:
https://i.postimg.cc/dDn24pk1/RCO020.jpg

@Galan: plus, whilst Sue says that, she was easily blocking Allfather bloodlusted Thor alongside other characters:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8235344-rco012_1628085920.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@Galan: plus, whilst Sue says that, she was easily blocking Allfather bloodlusted Thor alongside other characters:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8235344-rco012_1628085920.jpg Oh, I'm not saying that Kuurth would immediately be able to break through Sue's shielding(she's got the feats to suggest that much.) I just think he would ultimately be able to do so.

So the question becomes: how long does Kuurth have to remain trapped/contained in order to constitute a forum win via immobilization?

ie. When Firestorm locked Orion in a titanium cube, it technically immobilized him for a time, but he ultimately broke out a bit later. So I wouldn't view that as an immobilization win, for example... But if Sue's shields were able to trap Kuurth for a prolonged period for time(whatever arbitrary figure that might be), then it probably could be viewed as an immobilization win.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh, I'm not saying that Kuurth would immediately be able to break through Sue's shielding(she's got the feats to suggest that much.) I just think he would ultimately be able to do so.

So the question becomes: how long does Kuurth have to remain trapped/contained in order to constitute a forum win via immobilization?

ie. When Firestorm locked Orion in a titanium cube, it technically immobilized him for a time, but he ultimately broke out a bit later. So I wouldn't view that as an immobilization win, for example... But if Sue's shields were able to trap Kuurth for a prolonged period for time(whatever arbitrary figure that might be), then it probably could be viewed as an immobilization win.

Oh yeah, missed that part.

So a 10 count like in boxing feels waaay too short - but at the same time, 10 minutes seems too long?
If Hydro-Man (say) got Spidey in a bubble of water, he'll drown in what - 3, 4 minutes? So a 5 minute count feels right as a starting point. Someone like Bats or Spidey could be trapped and empty their entire arsenal trying to get out, for example, and 5 minutes is long enough for them to pull something out of the hat.

i don't think i'd ever consider immobilized as a forum win--unless it was essentially indefinitely. you used juggs and spidey. i wouldn't call that a forum win. he was still moving forward the whole time. i don't think she could stop him at all--he'd continue moving forward imo so he would never truly be immobilized but that's neither here nor there. the idea of immobilization has always been a bit of a loophole. if spidey immobilizes logan with webs for an hour did he win the fight? if a specific forum rule says so, that's fine, but if they stayed in the ring logan would get out and the fight continues so i wouldn't personally count that as a forum win.

i look at it like bfr--bfr works because one opponent is completely taken out of the fight. if an immobilized person wins and is out of the fight for good--OR if the person who immobilized the opponent can then kill the immobilized opponent THEN the immobilization should count as a win. like if kraven hit spidey with a poison that paralyzed him. the paralyzation wouldn't be a win imo--the fact that once paralyzed kraven would chop his head off is what would make it a win. imo.

in this case sue would need to concentrate heavily to immobilize him. kuurth would be fighting the whole time and not be truly immobilized, and its a forgone conclusion he'd break out and kill her. don't see how that, in any way at all, could be considered a win for her.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think i'd ever consider immobilized as a forum win--unless it was essentially indefinitely. you used juggs and spidey. i wouldn't call that a forum win. he was still moving forward the whole time. i don't think she could stop him at all--he'd continue moving forward imo so he would never truly be immobilized but that's neither here nor there. the idea of immobilization has always been a bit of a loophole. if spidey immobilizes logan with webs for an hour did he win the fight? if a specific forum rule says so, that's fine, but if they stayed in the ring logan would get out and the fight continues so i wouldn't personally count that as a forum win.

i look at it like bfr--bfr works because one opponent is completely taken out of the fight. if an immobilized person wins and is out of the fight for good--OR if the person who immobilized the opponent can then kill the immobilized opponent THEN the immobilization should count as a win. like if kraven hit spidey with a poison that paralyzed him. the paralyzation wouldn't be a win imo--the fact that once paralyzed kraven would chop his head off is what would make it a win. imo.

in this case sue would need to concentrate heavily to immobilize him. kuurth would be fighting the whole time and not be truly immobilized, and its a forgone conclusion he'd break out and kill her. don't see how that, in any way at all, could be considered a win for her.

Whereas I would see it as a forum win for Spidey..without a timeout rule, Mr Immortal/Deadpool/Wolverine/Lobo would win against someone like say, GL, whose ring would run out of charge. Hal could pin Mr Immortal under a construct, but eventually it runs out....and Mr Immortal is right back in the fight.

immortal is a different case. he would be COMPLETELY immobile and unable to defend or continue acting. same with pool or logan. they could all be decapitated--THAT would count as a forum win. juggs never stopped moving in the cement. he was never immobilized. like kurrth would never be immobilized. not completely. I see the two situations as completely different. just because someone can heal doesn't mean killing them the first time doesn't count as a win. it's the same as the paralysis I mentioned above.

But it's the same as Logan all webbed up - he can't attack or defend. Spidey could come over and read an entire book of slam poetry to him, and he'd have to lie there and take it

GL Vs Logan - Hal could hold Wolverine under a cube construct, and do whatever he liked for as long as the ring held its charge. He could walk slowly over, get a pen out and write his entire life story on Logan's face ('Daddy issues. Cocky Pilot. Greatest GL'). Yet as soon as the cube is lifted, Logan will jump to his feet and be back in the fight, even if it took days for the ring charge to deplete. I wouldn't say Logan won that. Hal would have.

Or say, Brit. Hulk could just.....hold him down with one hand. He's got a normal human level of strength, so will never be able to do anything. I wouldn't say he's 'won', quite the opposite (I'm not talking about killing, and never said so).

Killing isn't the only way to win

a webbed Logan is incapacitated and that would count as a win to me ONLY IF someone could prove Spidey was then able to beat a prone Logan into unconsciousness. if not, Spidey would need to win another way. can't see why simply webbing him would be enough to count as a win. if that were true, any Logan/Spidey thread should be closed as spite. don't really see that happening...

gl could kill logan--at least once--so incapacitation there is equivalent to a killing blow.

brit--IF he was able to withstand hulk's continually mounting strength it would be a stalemate if bfr is eliminated. or hulk holds his head and suffocates him--if that would cause brit to pass out. hulk could barely hug him or stomp him and hold him but he still didn't ko/kill.bfr him so it's a stalemate to me.

you're right--there are other ways to win--ko or bfr. not sure what advantage a time limit would have in these forum situations where even pis is off. sue holding someone in a bubble for an hour but the person inside is getting stronger and she's getting weaker means she should win that fight when it's a foregone conclusion she will lose it? in a forum situations where we're trying to see who would ACTUALLY win a match? doesn't make sense to me.

immobilization that leads to an inevitable incapacitation (via kill, ko or bfr) is the only kind of immobilization that should count as a win imo. :/

Well...yes, spamming his web cartridges to trap Logan is a win for Spidey. Same as Batman using his 15-ton-breaking-strength grappling line to wrap someone up, or encasing someone in foam, is a win for Batman.

I mean, is it any different from Herc doing this?

Originally posted by leonidas
In a city its possible for herc to bfr logan, or just open up a crack in the earth and seal him in it for a win. /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
a webbed Logan is incapacitated and that would count as a win to me ONLY IF someone could prove Spidey was then able to beat a prone Logan into unconsciousness. if not, Spidey would need to win another way. can't see why simply webbing him would be enough to count as a win. if that were true, any Logan/Spidey thread should be closed as spite. don't really see that happening...

Logan breaks free out of the webbing pretty fast, it doesn't hold him.

Even back when Parker was protecting the serial killer kid, refused to listen to Logan and webbed him up when he had his claws sheathed, this happened:

https://i.ibb.co/NmyQvQ0/Marvel-Team-Up-001-019.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well...yes, spamming his web cartridges to trap Logan is a win for Spidey. Same as Batman using his 15-ton-breaking-strength grappling line to wrap someone up, or encasing someone in foam, is a win for Batman.

I mean, is it any different from Herc doing this?

Wow. You really had that 2017 post ready in case Leo returned?

Anyway, I always assumed the rules regarding such incapacitation were the same ones as with BFR --- if the character can't break free in a "reasonable time" and under his own power, it's a loss for him.

Of course, the debatable part would be what exactly we understand by "reasonable time".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Wow. You really had that 2017 post ready in case Leo returned?

Anyway, I always assumed the rules regarding such incapacitation were the same ones as with BFR --- if the character can't break free in a "reasonable time" and under his own power, it's a loss for him.

Of course, the debatable part would be what exactly we understand by "reasonable time".



If the Blob sat on Logan and just.....sat there, I would class it as a win for Blob, even if he doesn't kill/KO Logan. If Peter just spammed all his web cartridges at Logan and basically filled the arena with web, then sat back and played with his micro peen, I would class that as a win for Peter.

Blob tried that, you know. Didn't end well for him. Snikt.

But I see what you're saying. If such tactics succeeded, they would count as a forum win.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well...yes, spamming his web cartridges to trap Logan is a win for Spidey. Same as Batman using his 15-ton-breaking-strength grappling line to wrap someone up, or encasing someone in foam, is a win for Batman.

I mean, is it any different from Herc doing this?

you should get checked out lol

but in that case Logan would be indefinitely incapacitated--meaning he could NEVER get free. he'd be forever incapable of breaking free or healing his way out so yes, again, it would/should count as a win.

reasonable time makes no real difference. if sue holds him for an hour but her concentration is breaking and he's getting stronger and WILL WIN (as everyone knows) then what possible advantage is there in arbitrarily declaring she wins? I mean take it if you want. I just don't see the point when the whole point of these forum fights is removing pis AND seeing who'd actually win.

Originally posted by leonidas
you should get checked out lol

but in that case Logan would be indefinitely incapacitated--meaning he could NEVER get free. he'd be forever incapable of breaking free or healing his way out so yes, again, it would/should count as a win.

reasonable time makes no real difference. if sue holds him for an hour but her concentration is breaking and he's getting stronger and WILL WIN (as everyone knows) then what possible advantage is there in arbitrarily declaring she wins? I mean take it if you want. I just don't see the point when the whole point of these forum fights is removing pis AND seeing who'd actually win.

Then I guess it then becomes...a question of time. 10 minutes? An hour? 2?

Let's go to 2021:

Originally posted by leonidas
the webbing is too big an edge. i thought maybe cage could rip it, but it he can't petey can immobilize most of them quickly i think. weirdly, danny is the toughest one. i wonder if he could ramp up the fist to get through the webs...?

And no, I don't have these saved, lol. I just use the search function.

Originally posted by leonidas


but in that case Logan would be indefinitely incapacitated--meaning he could NEVER get free. he'd be forever incapable of breaking free or healing his way out so yes, again, it would/should count as a win.



You're assuming Logan wouldn't just dig his way out of that. He's done it before.

Which, incidentally, would be far less problematic than Herc performing such a feat as if he had tactile telekinesis or Looney Tunes force backing him up.

Originally posted by leonidas
you should get checked out lol



Lmmfao.

et tu, Carvy? After I tried rescuing you in the JL thread?

Originally posted by h1a8
I would say Kuurth hammer can break the shield instantly.
Why?
Magneto couldn't stop the hammer.
Is Sue's power significantly beyond Magneto power?
She is better off becoming invisible and being evasive while trying to put him down. Originally posted by Galan007
Oh, I'm not saying that Kuurth would immediately be able to break through Sue's shielding(she's got the feats to suggest that much.) I just think he would ultimately be able to do so.

So the question becomes: how long does Kuurth have to remain trapped/contained in order to constitute a forum win via immobilization? Like h1a8 says, I would. He had both Cyttorak's & Serpent's power.

If the notion of him instantly shattering Sue's forcefields would offend her upper capabilities, then maybe he just simply bypasses them to preserve the notion of unstoppability. Similar to how he simply bypassed teleportation into the Sun by simply walking forward anyway.

It took a godblast to stop classic Juggernaut. If we give Sue the benefit of her uppermost capabilities/feats, then we have to do the same for classic Juggernaut too... and, by extension, Kuurth.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
et tu, Carvy? After I tried rescuing you in the JL thread?

Thanks for the rescue. The laugh was more in shock of Leo saying that.

Originally posted by ODG
Like h1a8 says, I would. He had both Cyttorak's & Serpent's power.

If the notion of him instantly shattering Sue's forcefields would offend her upper capabilities, then maybe he just simply bypasses them to preserve the notion of unstoppability. Similar to how he simply bypassed teleportation into the Sun by simply walking forward anyway.

It took a godblast to stop classic Juggernaut. If we give Sue the benefit of her uppermost capabilities/feats, then we have to do the same for classic Juggernaut too... and, by extension, Kuurth.

I don't think we can share feats, but that's just me......

^ Sharing feats??? I don't understand.

Kuurth is Cain Marko. He was utilizing Cyttorak's full blessing/power as revealed during Illyana/Piotr's conversation with Cyttorak in the Crimson Cosmos. Marko was just further amped with the Serpent's power also.

So it's not sharing feats between different characters. It's just adding more power to the same character???

Ah my bad - I meant to say we don't stack powers (but I have no idea why I typed what I typed - I was probably in my cups).

By that I mean, we don't just...take the highs of classic Odin's power level, and add the highs of Thor's, to get Allfather Thor's striking power.

I mean we could, and I can post Sue blocking Allfather Thor's bloodlusted strikes.....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ah my bad - I meant to say we don't stack powers (but I have no idea why I typed what I typed - I was probably in my cups).

By that I mean, we don't just...take the highs of classic Odin's power level, and add the highs of Thor's, to get Allfather Thor's striking power.

I mean we could, and I can post Sue blocking Allfather Thor's bloodlusted strikes..... I don't think anyone was stacking highs, I could be wrong though.

ODG was using a single feat by a full powered Juggs (a Godblast barely being able to stop Juggs).

I stated that Mags could not even stop Kuurths hammer as it had the same unstoppable enchantment on it. I don't believe Sue shield integrity is significantly beyond Magnetos power.

Sue can put up a decent fight. But she has to stay invisible and become evasive (use movement) while attacking Kuurth. Just standing there and trying to stop the hammer from hitting her might be suicide

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't think anyone was stacking highs, I could be wrong though.

ODG was using a single feat by a full powered Juggs (a Godblast barely being able to stop Juggs).

I stated that Mags could not even stop Kuurths hammer as it had the same unstoppable enchantment on it. I don't believe Sue shield integrity is significantly beyond Magnetos power.

Sue can put up a decent fight. But she has to stay invisible and become evasive (use movement) while attacking Kuurth. Just standing there and trying to stop the hammer from hitting her might be suicide

You saw my other scans showing her blocking the Ultimate Nullifier (which in the same comic erased a universe)?
You saw my scan showing her blocking the TVA's reality warping wave (which was erasing realities)?
You saw my scan showing her blocking Merged Sentry and the entire Cancerverse with a planet sized shield?
You saw my scan with her blocking Cormorant, who Franklin had to burn his powers out fighting and who handily defeated Squirrel Girl?

Show me the screenshots of h1 ever relying on on-panel evidence instead of his autistic imagination

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ah my bad - I meant to say we don't stack powers (but I have no idea why I typed what I typed - I was probably in my cups).

By that I mean, we don't just...take the highs of classic Odin's power level, and add the highs of Thor's, to get Allfather Thor's striking power.

I mean we could, and I can post Sue blocking Allfather Thor's bloodlusted strikes..... Well Kuurth achieved certain measurable feats that classic Juggernaut has failed:

1) Classic Juggernaut has had his powers absorbed by classic Rogue twice. When a more seasoned Rogue tried to absorb Kuurth's power, Kuurth simply no-sold her and Rogue was left catatonic.

2) Classic Juggernaut generally needs footing on solid ground to advance. Indeed he was left helpless when lifted into the air by Skaar. Kuurth casually walks forward over canyons on thin air.

3) Classic Juggernaut is famously susceptible to telepathy when deprived of his helmet. When Kuurth's helmet came off, he no-sold a Cerebro-amped Emma Frost who was left completely mindphucked.

4) Related to above, classic Juggernaut has had his helmet torn off by your standard X-Men team. Kuurth only had his helmet torn off by Iceman lowering its temperature to absolute zero, Colossus striking it, Magneto warping it and then Hope going all-out to the point where she fainted afterwards. And, remember, all that effort ended up being pointless.

5) Classic Juggernaut has been teleported several times. When Pixie tried to teleport Kuurth to the bottom of the sea, or high orbit, or into the Sun, Kuurth simply no-sold actual teleportation and kept walking forward.

In the face of all this, why exactly is the notion of Kuurth being slowly blown away by a godblast equally as well (if not better) than classic Juggernaut was... that farfetched?

Bottom-line is, Kuurth was an amped classic Juggernaut. And if you want to give Sue Richards full credit for all of her greatest feats, you ought to do the same for classic Juggernaut... and by extension, Kuurth. If you want to limit Kuurth's upper capabilities arbitrarily to some sort of average??? Ok, sure... then you must also do the same for Sue. It's only fair.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You saw my other scans showing her blocking the Ultimate Nullifier (which in the same comic erased a universe)?
You saw my scan showing her blocking the TVA's reality warping wave (which was erasing realities)?
You saw my scan showing her blocking Merged Sentry and the entire Cancerverse with a planet sized shield?
You saw my scan with her blocking Cormorant, who Franklin had to burn his powers out fighting and who handily defeated Squirrel Girl?

What does that have to do with your comment about stacking feats or "sharing feats"?
And no I didn't see your scans (you didn't post them), and they are anyway irrelevant to the statement "sharing feats" that supposedly someone else is doing.
Now wouldn't the feats you gave for Sue do exactly what you are arguing against? You assume high end feats for her and not for an amped version of a character? Proof of Bias.


To address your feats:
Energy projection does not correlate to blunt force.
There are materials (and energy) that can easily stop lasers and other energy projection but utterly fail against bullets, sledge hammers, etc.
That covers your UN, TVA warping wave, and Cormorant arguments.

Now about the relevant blunt force feat:
The size of the shield (Merged Sentry example) is irrelevant. It's all about the strength of the shield. Average Merged Sentry's punch isn't more powerful than Kuurth's unstoppable enchantment. And fodder striking the shield one at a time in different places is not the same as a concentrated attack (which breaks shields more easily).

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Show me the screenshots of h1 ever relying on on-panel evidence instead of his autistic imagination

Show me where Stilt knows anything about comics.
Show me where Stilt understands that no scans (although irrelevant) were posted of DS claims. He stated feats without posting them.

Originally posted by h1a8
Show me where Stilt knows anything about comics.
Show me where Stilt understands that no scans (although irrelevant) were posted of DS claims. He stated feats without posting them. https://i.gifer.com/EJmc.gif

Originally posted by h1a8
What does that have to do with your comment about stacking feats or "sharing feats"?
And no I didn't see your scans (you didn't post them), and they are anyway irrelevant to the statement "sharing feats" that supposedly someone else is doing.
Now wouldn't the feats you gave for Sue do exactly what you are arguing against? You assume high end feats for her and not for an amped version of a character? Proof of Bias.


To address your feats:
Energy projection does not correlate to blunt force.
There are materials (and energy) that can easily stop lasers and other energy projection but utterly fail against bullets, sledge hammers, etc.
That covers your UN, TVA warping wave, and Cormorant arguments.

Now about the relevant blunt force feat:
The size of the shield (Merged Sentry example) is irrelevant. It's all about the strength of the shield. Average Merged Sentry's punch isn't more powerful than Kuurth's unstoppable enchantment. And fodder striking the shield one at a time in different places is not the same as a concentrated attack (which breaks shields more easily). you missed my point. Which was that she's more powerful than Mags

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
you missed my point. Which was that she's more powerful than Mags
This is debatable.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
you missed my point. Which was that she's more powerful than Mags

That part I assumed from you mentioning certain feats that she did (you stated you post scans of them, which I did see lol, because you didn't post the scans). Magneto is damn near omnipotent when controlling metal. He can manipulate adamantium with ease. He couldn't do anything to Kuurth's hammer.

But I'm confused about the
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't think we can share/stack feats, but that's just me......

How does that play into this?

And I'm not saying Kuurth stomps her. My point is that her Shields WILL NOT hold up to a hammer throw or swing. She can contend in this fight by staying evasive (flying around and maneuvering) and by being undetected (invisible). That gives her all the time to try to figure out how to put Kuurth down (if it's possible).

I like Sue and definitely want her to win. But I simply can't lie to myself into thinking that she can stop the hammer from moving forward (or him)

Originally posted by h1a8
That part I assumed from you mentioning certain feats that she did (you stated you post scans of them, which I did see lol, because you didn't post the scans). Magneto is damn near omnipotent when controlling metal. He can manipulate adamantium with ease. He couldn't do anything to Kuurth's hammer.

But I'm confused about the


How does that play into this?

And I'm not saying Kuurth stomps her. My point is that her Shields WILL NOT hold up to a hammer throw or swing. She can contend in this fight by staying evasive (flying around and maneuvering) and by being undetected (invisible). That gives her all the time to try to figure out how to put Kuurth down (if it's possible).

I like Sue and definitely want her to win. But I simply can't lie to myself into thinking that she can stop the hammer from moving forward (or him)

With regards to the first, I posted them in other threads (hence me asking if you had seen them). I rate blocked reality warping and ultimate nullification as being higher than Mags.

My statement about stacking was that comic writers don't take levels like that into account, like we do. We say well, Kuurth has the powers of X, and Y, so X+Y = Z.....but that doesn't play out in comics. Otherwise, I can say well Thor has these powers, Odin has those powers, add them together and Sue still blocked All father Thor's hammer strikes, even when he was bloodlusted.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With regards to the first, I posted them in other threads (hence me asking if you had seen them). I rate blocked reality warping and ultimate nullification as being higher than Mags.

My statement about stacking was that comic writers don't take levels like that into account, like we do. We say well, Kuurth has the powers of X, and Y, so X+Y = Z.....but that doesn't play out in comics. Otherwise, I can say well Thor has these powers, Odin has those powers, add them together and Sue still blocked All father Thor's hammer strikes, even when he was bloodlusted.

So you believe that Kuurth wasn't more powerful than classic Juggs alone?

Blocking energy beams can not always correlate to blocking blunt forces.
Unless the said beam can be proven to have X quantifiable push force behind it. Some energy just burns, some do other stuff. For example, Withstanding burning (for example lasers) doesn't mean one can withstand being pushed.

That is just my take anyway.

Ah, ok, you didn't see them then.

Cormorant:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Against the Cancerverse Sentry and the entirety of the Cancerverse, with a planetary shield as she is talking to Reed:
https://i.postimg.cc/34XSL8Y7/11.jpg

And finally, the scans which made me wonder.

Against Cormorant, who has the power to split the Earth in two:
https://i.postimg.cc/kgfh5D6n/04.jpg

Doom is unable to defend against it:
https://i.postimg.cc/g2YTd30S/12-1.jpg

"Incalculable might":
https://i.postimg.cc/WbmHQ5sq/18.jpg

They have to use Franklin against him:
https://i.postimg.cc/xjz7P07R/18-1.jpg

Who burns himself out:
https://i.postimg.cc/VSjWwKTW/19.jpg

Sidenote: Cormorant defies all known laws of physics:
https://i.postimg.cc/28NtcsNf/23.jpg

Franklin burns all of his power out, and it does nothing. Susan manages to block his blows, when in full Mom mode:
https://i.postimg.cc/bDpHwQfc/20.jpg

Note that he's punching. Not using energy attacks against her shields.

Note too, that the same writer who was writing Cormorant later has him defeating Squirrel Girl, and even mentions her not being 'Undefeatable'. I mention this because you always talk about how different writers have different opinions on power levels.

I mentioned the planet-sized shield with the Sentry, because my point is that it is surely, logically, easier to have a focussed 'Juggernaut-sized' forcefield, than a planetary-sized shield, no?

Moreover, fodder weren't striking the shield at different places. They were focussed on one area.

I am saying, we assume high end feats for ALL.

Thor, unamped, has his strikes 'shattering worlds around him', and we see him fighting Gorr and the shockwaves damaging nearby moons:
https://imgur.com/a/tW9eybD

He now has the Allfather power. 'Classic Odin' did this with Set:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111240836/5424780-9887690832-52905.jpg

'Long-dead galaxies, shattered' blah blah blah.

So, we have an unamped Thor (who could shatter moons/worlds), now amped with the Allfather power, which enabled Odin to shatter galaxies.

Then we make him bloodlusted. Then he meets Sue (with help):
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11139/111391579/8235344-rco012_1628085920.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ah, ok, you didn't see them then.

Cormorant:


Note that he's punching. Not using energy attacks against her shields.

Note too, that the same writer who was writing Cormorant later has him defeating Squirrel Girl, and even mentions her not being 'Undefeatable'. I mention this because you always talk about how different writers have different opinions on power levels.

Cormorant doesn't have any strength feats. How hard can he punch? No doubt he is super strong physically, but by how much? His durability to withstand blasts and other attacks doesn't equate to punching force. Claims of ripping a planet in two or snuffing out stars are not proof of his physical punching power. Characters like Molecule Man can perform such feats, but how hard can they punch with sheer physical force? Cormorant needs quantifiable punching feats or feats of punching well-known characters.


I thought she made the entire planet invisible and only she shielded a small, city-sized area.

Assuming that I'm wrong, the argument has several issues anyway:

1. The ability to generate constructs of a certain size doesn't necessarily mean they become stronger when made smaller. For instance, a character might create glass-like constructs of various sizes, from baseball-sized to planet-sized, but this doesn't mean the smaller constructs are tougher. This requires explicit proof, such as narration or a character stating that smaller constructs are inherently stronger.

2. The scan never showed all the fodder striking a particular area simultaneously. It only shows Sentry striking the shield while the fodder are gathered in the sky around it. It is highly improbable for two or more beings to strike anything at the exact same time unless it is planned and timed in advance. While it can happen by coincidence, it must be shown to occur to challenge the status quo.




Since fictional characters exhibit a range of abilities from their lowest to highest showings, one should assume a character is operating at their average level when applying ABC logic. For example, if Gladiator punches someone with all his might, we shouldn't assume he used planet-shattering force. Instead, we should assume he used his average or most generally portrayed level of force.

This differs when arguing for a character's highest feats in a forum fight. High feats can be used to represent the primary characters (those participating in the forum fight), but these high feats cannot be applied to a secondary character (one not participating in the forum fight) for ABC logic concerning the primary character.