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Battle of the Gods!

Darkseid in a shit stomp. Aegis is vastly more powerful. Plus, ALE.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Darkseid in a shit stomp. Aegis is vastly more powerful. Plus, ALE. It doesn't say that Darkseid has the ale.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Darkseid in a shit stomp. Aegis is vastly more powerful. Plus, ALE. Yeah, the ALE.

Forum rules, punk. All characters are at current or last seen levels unless otherwise indicated.

Now, the OP can remove the ALE at his discretion. But it's still spite because of the Aegis.

I lol'd at 'punk'.

DS wins.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Forum rules, punk. All characters are at current or last seen levels unless otherwise indicated.

Now, the OP can remove the ALE at his discretion. But it's still spite because of the Aegis. He is currently without a body. When did he use the ale on anyone in combat? Why did he not use it on Batman?

Originally posted by quanchi112
He is currently without a body. When did he use the ale on anyone in combat? Why did he not use it on Batman? Never stopped you for arguing Thanos while he was....dead. Yes, DS has the ALE.

Originally posted by Badabing
Never stopped you for arguing Thanos while he was....dead. Yes, DS has the ALE. Originally posted by Badabing
Never stopped you for arguing Thanos while he was....dead. Yes, DS has the ALE. I argued for him at his regular power levels. If this was immediately after marvel's the end before his series I wouldn't be acting like he has the heart.


When did Ds defeat anyone with the ale in this story?

Gee I dunno, how about MOST OF DC EARTH?! dur

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Gee I dunno, how about MOST OF DC EARTH?! dur When did Ds own anyone by speaking with the ale?

Anyone want to explain why the above was reported?

lol

It's obvious baiting and trolling. Ask Bada or Raoul. srug

lol

Quan AND Trick got pwned in one thread.

The planets are aligned.

Darkseid wins.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Quan AND Trick got pwned in one thread.

The planets are aligned.

Darkseid wins.

darksied didn't do anything with the ALE..in FC he's s**k..that's all i care..

odin > darksied...

i don't know which one is more powerful..the destroyer or aegis armor..so..i don't know who win..

what starts with 's' and ends with 'k' that would be asterisked?

skuk?

i was trying to say sick uhuh

are you sure?

Originally posted by Slaanesh
i was trying to say sick uhuh Why'd you block it... ?

Definitely a skukky post though.

he got beat down from orion before FC..so in FC..he is sick biscuits

Originally posted by Slaanesh
darksied didn't do anything with the ALE..in FC he's s**k..that's all i care..

odin > darksied...

i don't know which one is more powerful..the destroyer or aegis armor..so..i don't know who win..

The one time we saw Odin in the Destroyer he got sonned by the Celestials.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The one time we saw Odin in the Destroyer he got sonned by the Celestials. Why do you love DC so much?

If you actually read Marvel, and had reason for your blind hatred, you'd know he was recently shown using it against Thor (when Thor went on a 'rampage' in the past).

Yes, of course.

You got to stop with the irrational hate posts. srsly

What can I say? I heart Grant Morrison.

FC sucked and you know it.

Now you've gone too far.

Just don't knock everything Thanos has been in in retaliation.

i agree with Mekrob hey..i love DC..but FC the tie-in was good thou..

Odin>Darky

with their armor on not sure on that one.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The one time we saw Odin in the Destroyer he got sonned by the Celestials.


Thats not a low showing.

Originally posted by zeel
Thats not a low showing. How can anyone consider losing to the Celestials a low showing?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How can anyone consider losing to the Celestials a low showing?


NFC man. The celestials have made even the Mighty Galactus shit his shorts at times. Even standing up to a single celestial for even the shortest time is a large feat.

Aegis would solo them. srug Hell, Darkseid would crush the celestials at his FC levels or with the ALE.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Aegis would solo them. srug Hell, Darkseid would crush the celestials at his FC levels or with the ALE.

in your dream maybe..

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Aegis would solo them. srug Hell, Darkseid would crush the celestials at his FC levels or with the ALE. Sure trick. I don't even get what you would base this off of.

When the celestials can destroy a multiverse under their own power, or in the case of the Aegis, channel the power of a universe buster, then talk to me.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
When the celestials can destroy a multiverse under their own power, or in the case of the Aegis, channel the power of a universe buster, then talk to me. That has nothing to do with anything really. Ds being pulled out of the timestream almost destroyed all of reality, but he was no more powerful for it.

.............You didn't really understand anything about FC, did you?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
When the celestials can destroy a multiverse under their own power, or in the case of the Aegis, channel the power of a universe buster, then talk to me.

Would you be offended if I referred to you as the DC Quanchi?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Would you be offended if I referred to you as the DC Quanchi?

What about you?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
.............You didn't really understand anything about FC, did you?

u talk like u understand it completely..

I'm doing good, how about you?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I'm doing good, how about you?


I'm fine except for weather very much unpredictable nowadays.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
.............You didn't really understand anything about FC, did you? Feel free to explain away. It still doesn't change the fact that Ds did nothing even close in battle to show he can take down a Celestial let alone the 4th host.Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Would you be offended if I referred to you as the DC Quanchi? Aren't you the same guy who claimed he was trying to get permabanned on here?

Coming from the guy that claims to be Bada's best friend.

Wait hold on isn't Quan the one going around saying Odin rocking the multiverse is a high feat? Darkseid did that and more

Quan thinks Sentry losing to the Omega mutant is a high feat.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Wait hold on isn't Quan the one going around saying Odin rocking the multiverse is a high feat? Darkseid did that and more Not in a battle. Huge difference.Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Coming from the guy that claims to be Bada's best friend. I never claimed to be his best friend I claimed to speak with him on msn which is true.

tell me what Darksied is actually doing aside from dying and falling and dragging the whole universe along with him??

Originally posted by Slaanesh
tell me what Darksied is actually doing aside from dying and falling and dragging the whole universe along with him?? Exactly. His role and fall is affecting the multiverse nothing else. He also had use of the ale in the war.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Quan thinks Sentry losing to the Omega mutant is a high feat. Who did he lose to again?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not in a battle. Huge difference. I never claimed to be his best friend I claimed to speak with him on msn which is true.

The battle happened in the Fourth World which is beyond the Multiverse

Yeah i call BS on Quan he affected the multiverse on the same level the feats are damn near identical. Darkseid couldn't be killed easily = fact don't show to ignore the effort of that various people made to kill him don't low ball

Originally posted by kevdude
The battle happened in the Fourth World which is beyond the Multiverse The battle happened off panel so it cannot be referenced. he also used the ale.Originally posted by iceman24567
Yeah i call BS on Quan he affected the multiverse on the same level the feats are damn near identical. Darkseid couldn't be killed easily = fact don't show to ignore the effort of that various people made to kill him don't low ball His fall did. I think it is much different. I never said Ds could be easily killed I merely said that Odin's feat was on panel and during battle. It wasn't the result of some battle off panel.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who did he lose to again?

Wait, you don't know?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Wait, you don't know? Tell me.

The Collective aka. The Omega mutant.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The Collective aka. The Omega mutant. When did he lose to the Collective?

darksied got beat by orion..and his fall affect the multiverse or something like that..well..if it was orion who is falling..maybe he can do what darksied do in FC nothing impresive there..

Originally posted by Slaanesh
darksied got beat by orion..and his fall affect the multiverse or something like that..well..if it was orion who is falling..maybe he can do what darksied do in FC nothing impresive there..

What?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What?

i don't know..FC suckzz..i remember Batman said that Darksied got wounded by Orion..and he was beyond repair..and that he's dying and crawling into the universe..

Originally posted by quanchi112
When did he lose to the Collective?

Losing = opposite of winning.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Losing = opposite of winning. You would be right dear sir

Darkdied doesn't need the aegis armor to win this.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Losing = opposite of winning.

What Quan is saying is that Sentry didn't technically lose. Which was true. He was being beaten, sure. But he wasn't KO'd or anything close to indicate a definite loss.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Aegis would solo them. srug Hell, Darkseid would crush the celestials at his FC levels or with the ALE.

Trick your DS and DS wanking knows no limits. All this power and he couldn't even stop batman from killing him or supes from messing up his plans. All this stuff he did that he couldn't have even done on his own and had to have things fall into place outside of his power to make anything happen with a powerup lol. Good ol' batman for the win.. haha

Originally posted by iceman24567
Wait hold on isn't Quan the one going around saying Odin rocking the multiverse is a high feat? Darkseid did that and more

Jesus fing christ he didn't do shit on his own.... He dying and the war caused this all to take place which had nothing to do with his power.

HIS FALLING IS WHAT CAUSED IT ALL TO OCCUR and that wasn't his own power. It can be argued his presence and importance thus caused more to happen but lets be clear the chain reaction had nothing to do with his powerset or ability

So when you fall off your roof and land on your car and bust the windshield then.....?

Oh, so now you want to argue with the author himself coming out and agreeing with my interpretation.

GRANT ****ING MORRISON CAME OUT AND SAID IT WAS DARKSEID. stfugtfo

trick, I'm sick of your DS wanking...it's getting out of hand frankly

You're all delusional. The goddamn author comes out in a interview and says "Yes, it was Darkseid. He was bringing down the multiverse."

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?!

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You're all delusional. The goddamn author comes out in a interview and says "Yes, it was Darkseid. He was bringing down the multiverse."

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?! did he say he was doing it through his presance or his power was bringing down the multiverse.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You're all delusional. The goddamn author comes out in a interview and says "Yes, it was Darkseid. He was bringing down the multiverse."

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?! so DS is committing suicide in your scenario? cuz thats the only way he's bringing down a multiverse...and it's also an automatic loss.

Originally posted by Nihilist
did he say he was doing it through his presance or his power was bringing down the multiverse.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010928-Grant-Final-Crisis.html
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/020904-Grant-FC2.html

See for yourself.

Originally posted by Nihilist
did he say he was doing it through his presance or his power was bringing down the multiverse.

As in DS was falling, the wound Orion gave him left a black hole where his heart used to be.

Basically DS was bringing the house down with him, so that he could conquer the multiverse with the ALE.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You're all delusional. The goddamn author comes out in a interview and says "Yes, it was Darkseid. He was bringing down the multiverse."

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?!

Nobody is saying anything about him bringing down the multiverse. Clearly that is what Morrison was trying to convey. However, that goes directly to some of his doing (power) but a lot of his importance and presence in reality and when he dies it causes a whole bunch of f-ed up sh1t. FC is quite clear that the war, the ale (powerup of sorts) and him dying all caused the falling (not his doing or power) and then he ran with it and saw and opportunity to drag everybody down with him. However, what caused and started it all was nothing about his powerset in the least

OOoo and for the Record I kinda see DS winning this fight.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What Quan is saying is that Sentry didn't technically lose. Which was true. He was being beaten, sure. But he wasn't KO'd or anything close to indicate a definite loss.

He lost, the Collective BFR'd him. Unfortunately a BFR = a win in forum debates.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nobody is saying anything about him bringing down the multiverse. Clearly that is what Morrison was trying to convey. However, that goes directly to some of his doing (power) but a lot of his importance and presence in reality and when he dies it causes a whole bunch of f-ed up sh1t. FC is quite clear that the war, the ale (powerup of sorts) and him dying all caused the falling (not his doing or power) and then he ran with it and saw and opportunity to drag everybody down with him. However, what caused and started it all was nothing about his powerset in the least

Darkseid did win, for everything that was up against him he did very good. The war caused his falling into the Multiverse which could not support him, don't know why your bringing up the war and ale causing it to collapse, that's not what happened.. The only thing he was unprepared for and you can't blame him for this is Barry returning to life and helping Wally, if that did not happen he would have continued to consume everything until it was his. DS knew Batman was there the whole time but didn't care cause nothing Bats could do would hurt him (save Barry role). His mad conquest seems to had driven him insane and he couldn't help himself anymore to continue much like what Morrison said about his liking to Hitler..

Originally posted by kevdude
Darkseid did win, for everything that was up against him he did very good. The war caused his falling into the Multiverse which could not support him, don't know why your bringing up the war and ale causing it to collapse, that's not what happened.. The only thing he was unprepared for and you can't blame him for this is Barry returning to life and helping Wally, if that did not happen he would have continued to consume everything until it was his. DS knew Batman was there the whole time but didn't care cause nothing Bats could do would hurt him (save Barry role). His mad conquest seems to had driven him insane and he couldn't help himself anymore to continue much like what Morrison said about his liking to Hitler..


It useless to explain when people doesn't really understand the whole premises of the story.

Hard to believe Final Crisis is still being debated. Three letters is all you need: ALE.

The mere broadcast by Mokkari of the ALE onto the internet cracked time and space on-panel. As nobody can argue the crumpling of time and space = the Multiverse folding in on itself into the singularity. What else do you need to know? ALE literally remade all into Darkseid, such would be the penultimate result of being the rightful master of all existence. You got normal people becoming his body and literally shootin Omega Finder beams, a mere broadcast over the Internet cracking time and space before DS even manifests and Cain and Spectre unmaking creation by its mere utterance, etc. The ALE wasn't mere mind-control no matter how desperately some posters want it to be. It's mastery prefaced Darkseid's war in the Fourth World as stated by Grant himself and accelerated the destruction/subjugation of reality unto Darkseid as demonstrated on-panel. Nuff said.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hard to believe Final Crisis is still being debated. Three letters is all you need: ALE.

The mere broadcast by Mokkari of the ALE onto the internet cracked time and space on-panel. As nobody can argue the crumpling of time and space = the Multiverse folding in on itself into the singularity. What else do you need to know? ALE literally remade all into Darkseid, such would be the penultimate result of being the rightful master of all existence. You got normal people becoming his body and literally shootin Omega Finder beams, a mere broadcast over the Internet cracking time and space before DS even manifests and Cain and Spectre unmaking creation by its mere utterance, etc. The ALE wasn't mere mind-control no matter how desperately some posters want it to be. It's mastery prefaced Darkseid's war in the Fourth World as stated by Grant himself and accelerated the destruction/subjugation of reality unto Darkseid as demonstrated on-panel. Nuff said.

That along with the war and him falling were also not something he caused and also caused chain reactions but wasn't his powerset doing so.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Hard to believe Final Crisis is still being debated. Three letters is all you need: ALE.

The mere broadcast by Mokkari of the ALE onto the internet cracked time and space on-panel. As nobody can argue the crumpling of time and space = the Multiverse folding in on itself into the singularity. What else do you need to know? ALE literally remade all into Darkseid, such would be the penultimate result of being the rightful master of all existence. You got normal people becoming his body and literally shootin Omega Finder beams, a mere broadcast over the Internet cracking time and space before DS even manifests and Cain and Spectre unmaking creation by its mere utterance, etc. The ALE wasn't mere mind-control no matter how desperately some posters want it to be. It's mastery prefaced Darkseid's war in the Fourth World as stated by Grant himself and accelerated the destruction/subjugation of reality unto Darkseid as demonstrated on-panel. Nuff said.

That summary was beautiful and every point you made is backed by on panel statements or actions or Morrison himself. My question is: why did it take you 10 pages in another thread to say exactly that?

^ chair

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This somehow disputes what One said in his post? Face it trick the ALE isn't simple mind control and that along with other things not in darkseids plans or powerset caused events that took place.

Wrong again the ALE was and IS mind control, nothing has been stated otherwise! The ALE was being used BEFORE Darkseid was manifesting into reality and nothing happened until that point, Libra spreading the ALE before is proof of that.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Except that Grant Morrison said it was Darkseid.I can't even accuse you of being selective and not embracing context because absolutely none of what you quoted contradicts a single thing that I've stated. Arguing past me and simply wasting space with quotes that don't even begin to rebut my assertions doesn't suffice as an argument.
Originally posted by kevdude
Wrong again the ALE was and IS mind control, nothing has been stated otherwise! The ALE was being used BEFORE Darkseid was manifesting into reality and nothing happened until that point, Libra spreading the ALE before is proof of that. Ray states it. On-panel. Time and space cracked when Mokkari broadcast the ALE. The damn artist depicts it. Human beings started shooting Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes. What's so hard to grasp that the ALE is more than just mind-control?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life05.jpg

You're so willing to accept that Final Crisis revealed the true form of Darkseid for the first time, but you can't possibly accept that it also revealed the scope of the ALE for the first time also?

Aiyaiyai! Let go onedumgo!

There's a difference between time and space being affected and the idea that space-time itself was folded.

All of the points you seem to make ignore the singularity that DS created with his destructive energies.

It also ignores the fact that time and space were neither folded or crumpled when Mokkari infected Earth's comm tech with the ALE.

When DS fully manifested in Turpin's body the Lantern's state and I quote: "Space time just crumpled like it was crushed in a fist." Also notice that the Guardians referred to the ALE as a word weapon, capable of enslaving souls.

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0905/FC5p08.jpg

The only other time space is stated to be folding is in FC 7 again there, space and time have become Darkseid. Also you keep mentioning the humans all speaking as one etc etc, that's just part of the ALE's effect, each body becomes Darkseid; animated by a single will.

He crumples all time into one-time and assasinates Orion from a place he cannot see him, in a time where Orion doesn't exist i.e. which is where FC started (with the death of Orion).

Forgive me if I'm wrong Odg, but it seems as if you taking the context in that scan a bit to literal. The "Making Time and Space crack" statement can be interpreted in a number of ways. It looked to me that it was referring to the beginning of the whole Ale ordeal. My personal philosohy is that if something isn't clearly depicted on panel, then it's either hyperbole or a literary device, used to build up the significance of the story.

And seeing how the Oe is Darkseid's signature ability, doesn't that say that the people shooting the Ob, would more likely had been influenced by Darkseid's intervention then say the Ale itself?

Allankles: I think it's eminently clear to most people who have tracked our arguments, that you are the one who needs to let go.
Originally posted by Allankles
It also ignores the fact that time and space were neither folded or crumpled when Mokkari infected Earth's comm tech with the ALE.Except I already posted the scan that says space and time did crack when the ALE was merely broadcast, well before Darkseid actually manifested fully. Short-term memory loss?
Originally posted by Allankles
When DS fully manifested in Turpin's body the Lantern's state and I quote: "Space time just crumpled like it was crushed in a fist." Also notice that the Guardians referred to the ALE as a word weapon, capable of enslaving souls.

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0905/FC5p08.jpgYeah. They also mention machines capable of rewriting the laws of being. Hmph. Wonder if Darkseid used those to do what he did. Ironic how when you point out something to try to avoid what I point out, it can lead to holes in your argument.
Originally posted by Allankles
The only other time space is stated to be folding is in FC 7 again there, space and time have become Darkseid. Also you keep mentioning the humans all speaking as one etc etc, that's just part of the ALE's effect, each body becomes Darkseid; animated by a single will. Actually, Mr. Miracle stated that time and space broke as a result of the war that destroyed the Fourth World:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Superman09.jpg

Specifically. Explicitly. So yeah. Yet, another statement that taken in its clearest possible meaning is dispositive that it was purely Darkseid with no influence of the ALE. I never mentioned the humans speaking together as one. I mentioned them shooting friggin Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes at Wally and Barry.

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Forgive me if I'm wrong Odg, but it seems as if you taking the context in that scan a bit to literal. The "Making Time and Space crack" statement can be interpreted in a number of ways. It looked to me that it was referring to the beginning of the whole Ale ordeal. My personal philosohy is that if something isn't clearly depicted on panel, then it's either hyperbole or a literary device, used to build up the significance of the story.So it's only hyperbole when we're talking about the ALE. But it's not hyperbole when we're talking about Darkseid? I doubt you would stand there and dictate that. So turn that type of logic back on yourself. All the statements where Darkseid is the subject of a certain feat, i.e. "his destructive emanations" could be hyperbole or literary device. Or more simply, it's just the author not pandering to his audience. When Thanos obtained the InfinityGauntlet, Starlin didn't whack you over the head with statements such as, "By virtue of his possession of the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos has infinite power." Would you argue that "his infinite power" must attribute the power to Thanos only? Or is just obvious from the story that it's not his personal power, but his wielding the power of the Infinity Gauntlet?

None of the statements being thrown at me, even when taken in their clearest and plainest meaning, is absolutely dispositive that the ALE is more than mind-control. None of those statements can be read that it must be Darkseid's personal power. All those statements can be read that it is Darkseid's power with the ALE. However, we have statements, when taken in their clearest and plainest meaning and actual scenes that are completely dispositive of the ALE only being mind-control. That's the point. And it's obvious.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
And seeing how the Oe is Darkseid's signature ability, doesn't that say that the people shooting the Ob, would more likely had been influenced by Darkseid's intervention then say the Ale itself? No. Considering the ALE is presented as making Darkseid master of all existence and allowing all denizens to be his body as stated by he, himself, just no. It's speculation in the face of the purely obvious. It's so obvious, I shouldn't even have to entertain this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Yeah. They also mention machines capable of rewriting the laws of being. Hmph. Wonder if Darkseid used those to do what he did. Ironic how when you point out something to try to avoid what I point out, it can lead to holes in your argument.



And this is the problem with your argumentation, you don't stick to the substantial story elements. For one, no machine that can change the law of being was used in the story outside of the miracle machine, which apparently was a cargo-cult motherbox with a single function.

You pick and choose little elements here and there that don't even qualify as concrete evidence. What is concrete is that DS created a singularity with his destructive energies. What is concrete is that time and space only crumpled upon DS' active involvement, nothing of that nature was shown to happen before FC 5.

In FC 7 again we get to see visual proof as well as a statement that time-space were being folded. Nothing of that nature takes place prior to FC 5, which coincides with what happened at the end of #4 and the subsequent # 5.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Superman09.jpg

Specifically. Explicitly. So yeah. Yet, another statement that taken in its clearest possible meaning is dispositive that it was purely Darkseid with no influence of the ALE. I never mentioned the humans speaking together as one. I mentioned them shooting friggin Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes at Wally and Barry.

Which doesn't coincide with anything else you've mentioned or don't you see that? Also Miracle states (in the same scan) that Darkseid is dragging down the universe, i.e. he's using a singularity to crumple space-time towards Earth where the ALE awaits its victims.

I don't know what's difficult to grasp there.

Originally posted by Allankles
You pick and choose little elements here and there that don't even qualify as concrete evidence. What is concrete is that DS created a singularity with his destructive energies. What is concrete is that time and space only crumpled upon DS' active involvement, nothing of that nature was shown to happen before FC 5.What is concrete is that Final Crisis never would have started without Darkseid's mastery of the ALE. Morrison unequivocally states that his mastery of the ALE precipitated the cosmic war. Precipitate means "to abruptly and directly cause." It doesn't merely mean precede. It means to abruptly and directly cause. Your statements are completely ignorant of everything that has been shown to contradict your opinions. Mastery of ALE precipitates cosmic war. Ray's statements. Mr. Miracle's statements. Cain/Spectre's statements. Omega Finder Beams. ALE is not just mind-control.
Originally posted by Allankles
Which doesn't coincide with anything else you've mentioned or don't you see that? Also Miracle states (in the same scan) that Darkseid is dragging down the universe, i.e. he's using a singularity to crumple space-time towards Earth where the ALE awaits its victims.

I don't know what's difficult to grasp there. It doesn't mesh with yours either. In fact, it outright contradicts yours. Which is the point. Ray's statements don't mesh with yours. In fact, it outright contradicts yours. None of your cherry-picked statements contradict mine.

Your argument is wholly based upon a poor or misleading grasp of basic sentence construction. Just because Darkseid is the subject, does not disprove that the ALE is also involved. Example: "Thanos replaced Eternity's importance with his own." Do you have to interpret that sentence as: "Oh, well... they only mention Thanos, so it must only be Thanos' personal power." Does that sentence as constructed, completely disprove that the Infinity Gauntlet was involved? Absolutely not. Neither do the statements being thrown at me. That's why absolutely nothing you guys have said so far does a single thing to disprove my assertions.

HOWEVER, when you read the statements I've been throwing at you, they are completely dispositive of Darkseid's personal power being involved. Why? "It was exactly 5:30 PM EST. That's when time, space... everything cracked." Why is that completely dispositive of Darkseid using only his personal power? Because Darkseid hadn't manfifested yet. And the occurrence is simultaneous with the timing of Mokkari releasing the ALE on the internet.

Not only that, regular human beings shoot friggin Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes when possessed by the ALE. How much more obvious can you get, that the ALE isn't just mind-control? It actually makes all existence you. And that directly coincides that all reality/space/time would crumple onto you and you'd be all that's left. How hard is this to grasp? No amount of equivocation or errors in reading sentences will change this. The ALE is more than mind-control.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So it's only hyperbole when we're talking about the ALE. But it's not hyperbole when we're talking about Darkseid? I doubt you would stand there and dictate that. Now turn that type of logic back on yourself. All the statements where Darkseid is the subject of a certain feat, i.e. his destructive emanations could be hyperbole or literary device. Or more simply, it's just the author not pandering to his audience. When Thanos obtained the InfinityGauntlet, Starlin didn't whack you over the head with statements such as, "By virtue of his possession of the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos replaced Eternity's place." It's just obvious from the story that it was by virtue of the Infinity Gauntlet. None of the statements, even when taken in their clearest and plainest meaning is absolutely dispositive that the ALE is more than mind-control. However, we have statements, when taken in their clearest and plainest meaning and actual scenes that are completely dispositive of the ALE only being mind-control. That's the point. And it's obvious. Funny thing I to believe that certain messages should be conveyed subtly and not straight out. However, that scan you provided further up........ Evidence like that is the exact reason I'm skeptical on feats such as Odin's supposed galaxy busting to feat. It was shown with very little detail and from what the artist displayed, Odin was hardly operating at planet busting. If there's something I missed on that feat, feel free to correct me on it.

Anyways, it seems to me that your so sure on your opinion and interpretation, that you pretty much took it as fact. From my viewpoint though, you overemphasized a minor detail and gave it more significance than what it's worth. Yes things don't have to black or white, but there was not a single thing in that scan that would be concrete proof to declare whether it screwed with the time space continuum. That's you have to distinguish vague hyperbole from, a literal piece of context.

And one of the few things that holds relevance to me on the scope of Ds's power, is the fact that he caused the destruction of the multiverse. Say whatever the hell you want about it, but a skyfather or even a low level abstract, don't cause the destruction of an entire Mv, just because their essence fades away.

I'm sorry, but wouldn't that help the case that the Ale is only mind-control more then if it wasn't? As stated in the story that Ale made all of earth's population one with Ds, that would mean that they were all merely extension to Darkseid's being. When think about it, the concept of the Ale makes alot more sense. It's domination on levels that no one short of a Higher power(as in the Presence or the Oaa) could attain. The ability to cease complete control over one's will. Considering Darkseid, a god himself, can't achieve such a feat without it clearly paints a vivid image of how great it is. So to sum it up, it was merely the remote controller to his tv set, rather than the batteries to his remote controller.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
ALE is not just mind-control.

Who said the ALE is mind control? The ALE erases free will and enslaves soul it's not just mind control.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It doesn't mesh with yours either. In fact, it outright contradicts yours. Which is the point. Ray's statements don't mesh with yours. In fact, it outright contradicts yours. None of your cherry-picked statements contradict mine.

Nothing supports the ALE folding space and time. Simple as that. When Mokkari infected the internet, again the ALE transformed the internet into a god weapon, whether it affected time or otherwise we know space and time were not crumpled by this action.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your argument is wholly based upon a poor or misleading grasp of basic sentence construction. Just because Darkseid is the subject, does not disprove that the ALE is also involved. Example: "Thanos replaced Eternity's importance with his own." Do you have to interpret that sentence as: "Oh, well... they only mention Thanos, so it must only be Thanos' personal power." Does that sentence as constructed, completely disprove that the Infinity Gauntlet was involved? Absolutely not. Neither do the statements being thrown at me. That's why absolutely nothing you guys have said so far does a single thing to disprove my assertions.

Except the ALE is not the infinity gauntlet which has it's clearly defined capabilities. The ALE has never been attributted with the formation of singularities. There's nothing misleading there, if anything you seem to be mislead by a few comments and you fail to grasp the big picture.

You want to relate the ALE to the 4th world's destruction, when no mention of the specifics of how the war was ended are made. You want to relate the singualirty to the ALE when no such relation was made. I like to deal with things as they are presented, not to make interpretations without the story elements for support.

We've been through this before, so I don't know why you feel compelled to make bad comparisons like the IG.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
HOWEVER, when you read the statements I've been throwing at you, they are completely dispositive of Darkseid's personal power being involved. Why? "It was exactly 5:30 PM EST. That's when time, space... everything cracked." Why is that completely dispositive of Darkseid using only his personal power? Because Darkseid hadn't manfifested yet. And the occurrence is simultaneous with the timing of Mokkari releasing the ALE on the internet.

Except time space never folded at 5:30, time space never crumpled at 5:30 it crumpled after DS had fully manifested in Turpin. When his full manifestation had arrived on Earth and it's impact formed cracks across all sectors of space. You don't see the big picture.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not only that, regular human beings shoot friggin Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes when possessed by the ALE. How much more obvious can you get, that the ALE isn't just mind-control? It actually makes all existence you. And that directly coincides that all reality/space/time would crumple onto you and you'd be all that's left. How hard is this to grasp? No amount of equivocation or errors in reading sentences will change this. The ALE is more than mind-control.

No.

The ALE enslaves souls, and the flesh becomes Darkseid's body, and I'm sorry I don't see where this supports the ALE being able to create singularities? The ALE allows DS to enslave all sentient beings, it is mathematical proof of his mastery over all sentient life. Nothing is contradicted there with FC.

Allankles: Your faulty use of sentence interpretation doesn't fly. It's this damn simple: Grant Morrison says Darkseid's mastery abruptly and directly causes the cosmic war that destroys the 4th World. It's this damn simple: Mokkari presses a button to release the ALE and this happens:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg

Just because you say time and space wasn't collapsing at 5:30 PM doesn't change the fact that the ALE cracked time and space. And if the ALE can crack time and space, isn't it ridiculous to assume that Darkseid then never used the ALE to actually collpase it? Had he the personal power to collapse the Multiverse, why in god's name would he wait until he masters the ALE to do so? it's obvious the ALE does more than enslave souls. It makes everything him, to the point that normal human beings start shooting Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes. Get over it.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Anyways, it seems to me that your so sure on your opinion and interpretation, that you pretty much took it as fact. From my viewpoint though, you overemphasized a minor detail and gave it more significance than what it's worth. Yes things don't have to black or white, but there was not a single thing in that scan that would be concrete proof to declare whether it screwed with the time space continuum. That's you have to distinguish hyperbole from a vague, yet literal piece of context.That's not vague hyperbole. At all. You cannot interpret that sentence along with the coincidence of Mokkari releasing the ALE as anything other than the ALE cracking time and space without Darkseid's personal involvement. Whereas you can easily attribute all other statements about Darkseid's "destructive emanations," or "his singularity" as relying on the ALE. Same thing as "Thanos' infinite power." No, that doesn't necessarily mean Thanos' personal power is infinite. It could and obviously means he is in possession of infinite power because he wields the Infinity Gauntlet.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
And one of the few things that holds relevance to me on the scope of Ds's power, is the fact that he caused the destruction of the multiverse. Say whatever the hell you want about it, but a skyfather or even a low level abstract, don't cause the destruction of an entire Mv, just because their essence fades away.Of course that is what a lot of people say. How could Darkseid himself cause the destruction of the Multiverse? Well. As I already agreed, Final Crisis is the first time we actually see Darkseid. The slate is wiped clean. Preconceptions do not matter. So taking Final Crisis on it's own is the proper thing to do. What is unbelievably hypocritical, is that the ALE itself cannot break past preconceptions. That the plain meaning of words and scans have to be outright ignored or labeled as hyperbole to preserve this preconception that the ALE is only mind-control. Another ironic point, is that in the past, the ALE was shown to be more than just mind-control to boot! Ridiculous.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
I'm sorry, but wouldn't that help the case that the Ale is only mind-control more then if it wasn't? As stated in the story that Ale made all of earth's population one with Ds, that would mean that they were all merely extension to Darkseid's being. When think about it, the concept of the Ale makes alot more sense. It's domination on levels that no one short of a Higher power(as in the Presence or the Oaa) could attain. The ability to cease complete control over one's will. Considering Darkseid, a god himself, can't achieve such a feat without it clearly paints a vivid image of how great it is. So to sum it up, it was merely the remote controller to his tv set, rather than the batteries to his remote controller. How did you possibly end up concluding that last sentence? You concluded the exact opposite of where your reasoning was heading which is encapsulated by the underlined sentence. If the Multiverse is a tv set. And Darkseid wants to change the channels or turn it off. Can Darkseid as a remote control do it on his own power? Or does he needs batteries like the ALE? Well considering he required the ALE to wage his war on the Fourth World and considering that Mokkari himself started turning the tv off with the ALE... it becomes obvious that Darkseid used, if not outright required, batteries like the ALE.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Allankles: Your faulty use of sentence interpretation doesn't fly. It's this damn simple: Grant Morrison says Darkseid's mastery abruptly and directly causes the cosmic war that destroys the 4th World. It's this damn simple: Mokkari presses a button to release the ALE and this happens:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg

Just because you say time and space wasn't collapsing at 5:30 PM doesn't change the fact that the ALE cracked time and space. And if the ALE can crack time and space, isn't it ridiculous to assume that Darkseid then never used the ALE to actually collpase it?


http://g.imagehost.org/t/0905/FC5p08.jpg

You forgot about this little bit of info here. DS's full manifestation on Earth causes cracks to form across all sectors of space. Also consider that he formed a personal singularity to draw in all space and time without the ALE being stated as the tool being used. You're arguing for a function the ALE has never been stated to have.

Ofcourse I'm only using the concrete story elements here, as they were presented. No mention of the ALE breaking time space let alone folding and crumpling it.

Originally posted by Allankles
You forgot about this little bit of info here. DS's full manifestation on Earth causes cracks to form across all sectors of space. Also consider that he formed a personal singularity to draw in all space and time without the ALE being stated as the tool being used. You're arguing for a function the ALE has never been stated to have.

Ofcourse I'm only using the concrete story elements here, as they were presented. No mention of the ALE breaking time space let alone folding and crumpling it. You're arguing for a power that Darkseid has never been stated to have. Stop the blatant hypocrisy.

There was no mentioning of IG in the sentence that described when Thanos overtook Eternity's place in the universe either. Yeah. Except it is much more likely that it was the IG because it was stated and depicted elsewhere that the IG could rearrange reality. Now... it was never actually stated or shown that the IG could overtake Eternity prior to it happening, but the other statements/depictions make it clear it most likely wasn't Thanos' personal power. Especially considering that the whole story is premised and was precipitated by Thanos' obtaining the IG.

There was no mentioning of the ALE in the sentence that described the singularity that space/time was crumpling into. Yeah. Except it is much more likely that it was the ALE because it was stated and depicted elsewhere that the ALE can crack time/space. Now... it was never actually stated or shown that the ALE could crumple time/space with a singularity prior to it happening, but the other statements/depictions make it clear it most likely wasn't Darkseid's personal power. Especially considering that the whole story is premised and was precipitated by Darkseid mastering the ALE.

This how your argument is faulty.....your trying to apply the same logic to the occurences in the infinity gauntlet to Fc's. The Ig unlike Ale, had a clear and established power level. Because of the feats that it displayed on panel, any narrative statement made about it, prior to after it, would be valid. That's why a narrator's statement shouldn't be given much consideration, unless it's supported by a clear cut illustration. Hence why it would be absurd to stand by a narrative statement, when what's being depicted on panel is the exact opposite of what appears on panel. If it was logical to debate in such a manner, I could start pulling a bunch of exaggerational statements from my ass, or even metaphors from stories featuring my favorite characters, for the sole purpose of wanking them. But of course...it's not....and Darkseid's narrative descriptions are more credible than the latter, because unlike the Ale, we've had an actual glimpse of what he's capable of on panel.
Please don't turn this into one of those "they did this thing to me I didn't like, so I'm going do it to others" type situations. When you do that, you end up generalizing and giving certain things inaccurate labels. There's not a shred of conclusive proof that would make the ideal that the Ale effected time and space, a plausible one. Like I said, if we could all use vague narration to determine something, anyone could make a silly argument for the fave character. That's why "hyperbole" is frowned down upon

In the past? Odd, seeing how the true Ale made it's first appearance in Fc....
You completely missed my point...... Ale is mind control unlike anything seen in comics. No Spectre, No Living Tribunal, No Eternity, or whoever the hell else, has the jurisdiction to dominate free will to the degree that the Ale can. That's why I said it was more akin to his remote control than say the batteries to his remote. It doesn't provide him with a power amp, it merely gives him the ability to dominate(control) ones will(tv set).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're arguing for a power that Darkseid has never been stated to have. You do realize that Darkseid exhibited temporal effecting powers in Losh foundations right?

^ Alternate universe, no thanks. That wasn't the real Darkseid as we've already established. Classic Surfer and classic Thor have temporal effecting powers. Neither of them can collapse the entire Multiverse without an enormous amp. Gee. That sounds familiar. All this is beyond the point, since Mokkari cracks time and space by releasing the ALE on the internet.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
This how your argument is faulty.....your trying to apply the same logic to the occurences in the infinity gauntlet to Fc's. The Ig unlike Ale, had a clear and established power level. Because of the feats that it displayed on panel, any narrative statement made about it, prior to after it, would be valid. That's why a narrator's statement shouldn't be given much consideration, unless it's supported by a clear cut illustration. Hence why it would be absurd to stand by a narrative statement, when what's being depicted on panel is the exact opposite of what appears on panel. If it was logical to debate in such a manner, I could start pulling a bunch of exaggerational statements from my ass, or even metaphors from stories featuring my favorite characters, for the sole purpose of wanking them. But of course...it's not....and Darkseid's narrative descriptions are more credible than the latter, because unlike the Ale, we've had an actual glimpse of what he's capable of on panel.Ray's statement's, Cain's/Spectre's statements, the human beings' firing of the Omega Finder Beams and Morrison's statements all establish that the ALE is more than mind-control. As such, any narrative statement that seems to attribute something to Darkseid personally, could and probably should be attributed to the ALE. There is no "on-panel Darkseid crushing Multiverse" scene at all. You only have narrative statements. Don't exaggerate your position.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Please don't turn this into one of those "they did this thing to me I didn't like, so I'm going do it to others" type situations. When you do that, you end up generalizing and giving certain things inaccurate labels. There's not a shred of conclusive proof that would make the ideal that the Ale effected time and space, a plausible one. Like I said, if we could all use vague narration to determine something, anyone could make a silly argument for the fave character. That's why "hyperbole" is frowned down upon
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg

That isn't vague narration. "Darkseid's destructive emanations" like "Thanos' infinite power" is a vague narration to describe what is the ALE in the former and the IG in the latter.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
You completely missed my point...... Ale is mind control unlike anything seen in comics. No Spectre, No Living Tribunal, No Eternity, or whoever the hell else, has the jurisdiction to dominate free will to the degree that the Ale can. That's why I said it was more akin to his remote control than say the batteries to his remote. It doesn't provide him with a power amp, it merely gives him the ability to dominate(control) ones will(tv set). It also gives him the ability to have human beings shoot Omega Finder Beams from their eyes as if he's shooting them. It also allowed Mokkari to crack time/space before Darkseid even manifested. It also precipitated the cosmic war that destroyed the 4th World. ALE is more than mind-control.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're arguing for a power that Darkseid has never been stated to have. Stop the blatant hypocrisy.

There was no mentioning of IG in the sentence that described when Thanos overtook Eternity's place in the universe either. Yeah. Except it is much more likely that it was the IG because it was stated and depicted elsewhere that the IG could rearrange reality. Now... it was never actually stated or shown that the IG could overtake Eternity prior to it happening, but the other statements/depictions make it clear it most likely wasn't Thanos' personal power. Especially considering that the whole story is premised and was precipitated by Thanos' obtaining the IG.

There was no mentioning of the ALE in the sentence that described the singularity that space/time was crumpling into. Yeah. Except it is much more likely that it was the ALE because it was stated and depicted elsewhere that the ALE can crack time/space. Now... it was never actually stated or shown that the ALE could crumple time/space with a singularity prior to it happening, but the other statements/depictions make it clear it most likely wasn't Darkseid's personal power. Especially considering that the whole story is premised and was precipitated by Darkseid mastering the ALE. Well, I haven't taken the time to read back through all of it yet, since I just recently got back from vacation in Cancun. And although I've read a friends copy I don't have issue 7 on hand. I'm waiting to get that before embarking back through it, but the LCS has been sold out since.

From what I got though, it was Darkseid's fall that caused the singularity, and space and time to crumple and causing a hole at the base of creation.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Alternate universe, no thanks. That wasn't the real Darkseid as we've already established. Classic Surfer and classic Thor have temporal effecting powers. Neither of them can collapse the entire Multiverse without an enormous amp. Gee. That sounds familiar. All this is beyond the point, since Mokkari cracks time and space by releasing the ALE on the internet. ......... foundations is canon, Ds was even returned to his timeline after the story. His removal from the time stream caused the near destruction of the Dcu.
.....Jesus Christ man, now your resorting to restating your previous argument, that I've already addressed? Please lets not make this go in circles. Re posting a scan isn't going to help either......trying to make a relation to the multiverse scene and the time space continuum ordeal, reeks of all kinds of crap. The fact that Supes had to wish the multiverse back to how it was, makes my case more plausible.

Once again, Oe was derived from Darkseid and not the Ale. Under the influence of Ds, the people were an extension to Ds's being, meaning that they were one with him, as in he could make them do whatever he wants by commanding them to. When they used the Omega beams, they were just a conduit of Darkseid. Why is it so hard to understand. No offense but this post reminds me of some of the "debates" I use to have with Quanchi. Rather than making proper retorts, he would summarize a bunch of previous statements and do so even after his argument was debunked.

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
......... foundations is canon, Ds was even returned to his timeline after the story. His removal from the time stream caused the near destruction of the Dcu.What did I write? That isn't even the true Darkseid. Why are youguys so quick to use stuff outside of Final Crisis and heckle me for pointing to things outside Final Crisis? I might as well use Cosmic Odyssey and quote you how the damn Anti-Life Entity threatens to destroy the entire universe. At least that adventure didn't happen in an alternate universe. Jebus. Stick to Final Crisis. you venture outside of it, my arguments are stronger, not weaker.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
.....Jesus Christ man, now your resorting to restating your previous argument, that I've already addressed? Please lets not make this go in circles. Re posting a scan isn't going to help either......trying to make a relation to the multiverse scene and the time space continuum ordeal, reeks of all kinds of crap. The fact that Supes had to wish the multiverse back to how it was, makes my case more plausible.Collapsing space/time = crumpling the Multiverse. Don't be ridiculous. They equated the two in Final Crisis. Nobody argues this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life03.jpg

And do you even remember what Superman used to make his wish? The Miracle Machine. And do you remember how the Miracle Machine works?! It calculates the Life Equation:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Superman02.jpg

Thanks for reminding me of another reason why the Anti-Life Equation should be seen as more than mere mind-control and attributable to the damage done to the multiverse: Because it's opposite, the calculation of the Life Equation actually restores the Multiverse!
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Once again, Oe was derived from Darkseid and not the Ale. Under the influence of Ds, the people were an extension to Ds's being, meaning that they were one with him, as in he could make them do whatever he wants by commanding them to. When they used the Omega beams, they were just a conduit of Darkseid. Why is it so hard to understand. No offense but this post reminds me of some of the "debates" I use to have with Quanchi. Rather than making proper retorts, he would summarize a bunch of previous statements and do so even after his argument was debunked. Give me a break. You're proving my god damn argument. The ALE can make people conduits of a power that only Darkseid himself has EVER exhibited! That proves it's more than just simple mind-control! Do you even realize what you're saying?!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Give me a break. You're proving my god damn argument. The ALE can make people conduits of a power that only Darkseid himself has EVER exhibited! That proves it's more than just simple mind-control! Do you even realize what you're saying?!

You're the one who seems to have a problem understanding the ALE and regardless of how relentless you are you seem to missing the gist of it.

The ALE allows DS to enslave souls and erase the free will of any being, what this means in practical terms is that all sentient life affected by the ALE are extensions of DS, all become his body, his church i.e. he can shoot the OE through their eyes because their eyes, their bodies, their very souls have become DS; they are governed by his will alone.

That's why I told you it's not simply mind control, but the enslavement of the soul and the complete removal of free will.

It doesn't become anything more than that. It doesn't amp DS, it's not the infinity gauntlet or the cosmic cube.

It was simply that DS had descended to a lower dimension in his full manifestation. Afterall, his arrival alone cracked space and time.

Read the entirety of FC to gain a clearer picture, DS plan was to become the one god by replacing the gift of the old (true) god (free will), with his own gift (anti-life).

True I don't think you both disagree about the ALE enslaving souls and making them slaves and making them Darkseids body, One just think it does more then that. Oracle talks about only hearing half of the ALE and she was very disoriented and what she saw was really worst then what she thought. I believe she was beginning to see Darkseid manifest in front of her something like what we saw in 5. The last time we saw Darkseids avatar was in 3, and it had just died and DS must have been moving into Turpin like what we saw at the beginning of 4 when he began his ascension. The Miracle Machine (Life Equation) was used to repair the Multiverse correct but mainly because DS presence was there even WW who was freed from the ALE stated that "what used to be meaningful and significant is Losing importance"..

What is so hard to understand. DS Failing is what caused the singularity and the black hole not something DS created under his own power. The war cracked time and space not DS. The ALE cracked time and space not DS. It's all there in FC what is the problem? So, if it simply enslaves people and is mind control then how exactly did it CRACK space and time. You keep on saying it didn't crumple it but then how did it even CRACK it if it's simply enslaving people? THe more logical conclusion is that it can do a lot more then just enslaving and mind control and that DS mastery of it allowed him to CRUMPLE space and time instead of it just cracking when spoken by others. For God's sake his FALLING caused all the events and the ball to start rolling which had nothing to do with his power at all.

Originally posted by Allankles
You're the one who seems to have a problem understanding the ALE and regardless of how relentless you are you seem to missing the gist of it.

The ALE allows DS to enslave souls and erase the free will of any being, what this means in practical terms is that all sentient life affected by the ALE are extensions of DS, all become his body, his church i.e. he can shoot the OE through their eyes because their eyes, their bodies, their very souls have become DS; they are governed by his will alone.That. Is. More. Than. Mind-control. What. Don't. You. Guys. Get. About. This. You. Just. Proved. Me. Right.

Even if I can control your will utterly, I can't very well make you do things you couldn't do on your own. Darkseid is the only one who can wield the Omega Beams. For him to control your mind and make you start shooting Omega Beams involves more than just replacing will. It has to do with that person changing. And as is obvious from the very nature of the ALE, it makes you master of existence, thus all becomes you.
Originally posted by Allankles
It was simply that DS had descended to a lower dimension in his full manifestation. Afterall, his arrival alone cracked space and time.Completely unsupported. Nothing throughout Final Crisis stated that DS cracked space and time when he manifested. In fact, there are two clear and conflicting statements that state DS wasn't the source of what cracked space and time. 0-2. All things considered equal, you lose when it comes to pure evidence.
Originally posted by kevdude
True I don't think you both disagree about the ALE enslaving souls and making them slaves and making them Darkseids body, One just think it does more then that. Oracle talks about only hearing half of the ALE and she was very disoriented and what she saw was really worst then what she thought. I believe she was beginning to see Darkseid manifest in front of her something like what we saw in 5. The last time we saw Darkseids avatar was in 3, and it had just died and DS must have been moving into Turpin like what we saw at the beginning of 4 when he began his ascension. The Miracle Machine (Life Equation) was used to repair the Multiverse correct but mainly because DS presence was there even WW who was freed from the ALE stated that "what used to be meaningful and significant is Losing importance".. It does do more than that as shown on-panel. You guys are already in full retreat of your initial positions that the ALE is only mind-control. It's obviously more than that. The Miracle Machine was used to repair the Multiverse by calculating the Life Equation. It's reasonable, in fact, downright obvious that it's repairing the damage caused by the Anti-Life Equation as wielded by DS. Wonderwoman only stopped the ALE from controlling people, "Nobody got hurt." She couldn't reverse the already irreparable compression of the Multiverse caused by DS w/ALE. Only the Miracle Machine could do that, by using the LE.

LE = fixes Multiverse, ALE = _____ (fill in the blank).

Simplistic? Maybe when taken on its own. But you have Ray's statements, Cain/Spectre's statements, Mr. Miracle's statements. It's obvious what the answer is. And it's downright inarguable that the ALE is more than just mind-control.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What did I write? That isn't even the true Darkseid. Why are youguys so quick to use stuff outside of Final Crisis and heckle me for pointing to things outside Final Crisis? I might as well use Cosmic Odyssey and quote you how the damn Anti-Life Entity threatens to destroy the entire universe. At least that adventure didn't happen in an alternate universe. Jebus. Stick to Final Crisis. you venture outside of it, my arguments are stronger, not weaker.
Collapsing space/time = crumpling the Multiverse. Don't be ridiculous. They equated the two in Final Crisis. Lol, yeah it wasn't the true Ds, it was an avatar, which ironically says alot more about the feat. Oh and Cosmic Odyssey? Even if you wanted to use it, that shit is IRRELEVENT and retconned. And let me correct you once again, it was IT WAS NOT A ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. Don't even try to drag me into a silly debate over that crap, Darkseid experianced it and was returned to his proper timeline, with his memory intact.

Besides, that wasn't my point, you completely misaddressed me. I was referring to your response to Allan, about how Ds is capable of no such temporal effecting abilties, when in fact his damn avatar could do it. And yes, avatars are still valid to Fc Ds, seeing how their weaker manisfestations of the true "Dark God" Seid.

Geez, I wonder why.

No I forgot about it, that's why I referenced it in one of my post.......

I'm sorry, but that's not going to cut it.......note how Lex states that it rewrites the laws of physics. That's not quite the same as fixing a devasting blow that Ds put on the time space continuum and the universe. It merely counters the effects of the Ale(the corruption of souls and such).

Lulz, at you patting yourself on the back and deeming your logic sound. No shit, of course the Ale can unite every being into one with Darkseid. But it's laughable to say the least, to play it off as solidifiable proof to your case. I'll concede on one thing, the Ale isn't simple mind control, it literally makes one surrender his will to the user. Their not just mind slaves, their literally a part of Ds.(note how I bolded literally) However, this detail in no way supports the notion that the Ale was power amp. I really don't see how any one could stand by that theory....it's f#cking ridiculous, considering how one of the main purposes of fc, was to be the revalation of the true Darkseid. I mean trying to interpret it as some kind of powerful artifact, is down right silly and shallow minded.

That's why I made that remote controller analogy earlier ago. Darkseid is not the remote controller that requires a power source such as batteries(Ale). The Ale was the remote, that Darkseid needed in order to manipulate the tv set(the people). It doesn't act as a power source akin to the Ig, instead gives him the jurisdiction to take over and corrupt anyone he desires. That's why it's called the Anti life equation and not the Anti life gauntlet.

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Lol, yeah it wasn't the true Ds, it was an avatar, which ironically says alot more about the feat. Oh and Cosmic Odyssey? Even if you wanted to use it, that shit is IRRELEVENT and retconned. And let me correct you once again, it was IT WAS NOT A ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. Don't even try to drag me into a silly debate over that crap, Darkseid experianced it and was returned to his proper timeline, with his memory intact.Yeah, like Death of the New Gods was an avatar... an avatar that revealed that the ALE was far more than just mind-control. Dude. We don't use alternate universes, alternate futures. It's in the rules. Superman broke Wonderwoman's bracelets in two punches in an alternate future and he came back with that memory. We don't use the feat. Considering that Grant Morrison expressly referenced Cosmic Odyssey and never referenced Foundations, it was the latter that was retconned out of existence. Lulz.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Besides, that wasn't my point, you completely misaddressed me. I was referring to your response to Allan, about how Ds is capable of no such temporal effecting abilties, when in fact his damn avatar could do it. And yes, avatars are still valid to Fc Ds, seeing how their weaker manisfestations of the true "Dark God" Seid. Dude. Thor and Surfer have temporal abilities. Neither of them could crush a damn Multiverse. Darkseid never showed the ability to collapse space/time. Is that statement wrong? So what the heck do you not get about what I said.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
I'm sorry, but that's not going to cut it.......note how Lex states that it rewrites the laws of physics. That's not quite the same as fixing a devasting blow that Ds put on the time space continuum and the universe. It merely counters the effects of the Ale(the corruption of souls and such).No. Ray's tattoo on one hemisphere of the Earth helped to undo the corruption of souls and such. Wonderwoman lassoing DS helped to undo the corruption of souls and such. Neither did anything to reverse the damage done to time and space. Only the Miracle Machine, by calculating the Life-Equation, could undo the damage.
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Lulz, at you patting yourself on the back and deeming your logic sound. No shit, of course the Ale can unite every being into one with Darkseid. But it's laughable to say the least, to play it off as solidifiable proof to your case. I'll concede on one thing, the Ale isn't simple mind control, it literally makes one surrender his will to the user. Their not just mind slaves, their literally a part of Ds.(note how I bolded literally) However, this detail in no way supports the notion that the Ale was power amp. I really don't see how any one could stand by that theory....it's f#cking ridiculous, considering how one of the main purposes of fc, was to be the revalation of the true Darkseid.Funny. One of the main purposes of fc, was to be the revalation of the true ALE. Considering Grant Morrison spent this much time talking about the damn Anti-Life Equation:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_FCSO1.jpg
Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
That's why I made that remote controller analogy earlier ago. Darkseid is not the remote controller that requires a power source such as batteries(Ale). The Ale was the remote, that Darkseid needed in order to manipulate the tv set(the people). It doesn't act as a power source akin to the Ig, instead gives him the jurisdiction to take over and corrupt anyone he desires. That's why it's called the Anti life equation and not the Anti life gauntlet. Considering that you don't have any proof except for statements that could easily be read BOTH ways that Darkseid did it under his own power or that Darkseid w/ALE did it, considering there isn't a single panel where Darkseid didn't have the ALE in Final Crisis, considering that Grant Morrison himself stated in the above scan that Darkseid's mastery of the ALE actually precipitated the war in the Fourth World, considering that space and time cracked once Mokkari released the ALE on the internet, considering that Cain/Spectre talked about the ALE unmaking creation and considering that the Life Equation fixed the Multiverse... do you really think you're on the winning end of this argument?

Moot point. I've already made you concede that the ALE is more than just mind-control. But that's not all. Because we both agreed that preconceptions ought to be dispelled, yet you won't even budge when it comes to the ALE. And refusing to accept that the ALE , "an equation that makes you master of all existence," could possibly affect time/space in spite of this scan is simply disingenuous:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life10.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0


http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_FCSO1.jpg


lol. The Anti-life equation is the EMCsquared of despair, not a power up, Morrison's own interpretation. When it is used in Soldiers it preys on Shilo Norman's emotional vulnerabilities. No time displacement powers (that's the OE's domain).

Also we are already told that he cracked space when he descended from the 4th world to Earth.

Originally posted by Allankles
lol. The Anti-life equation is the EMCsquared of despair, not a power up, Morrison's own interpretation. When it is used in Soldiers it preys on Shilo Norman's emotional vulnerabilities. No time displacement powers (that's the OE's domain).


http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_FCSO1.jpg

Also we are already told that he cracked space when he descended from the 4th world to Earth. He used a different form of the damn ALE in Seven Soldiers. Morrison states that right in the damn scan! Are you not reading the whole thing? Let's read some more, he also says that, "We see only facets of the unimaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation." If it's entirety is just mind-control like you assert... wonder what could be so unimaginable about it. That's a pretty simple concept there.

Now since you've been engaging in ignoring the plain and the obvious, let's do yet, even more reading, "Darkseid's recent mastery of the Anti-Life Equation precipitated a disastrous war in heaven which resulted in the "Death" of the New Gods and Darkseid's subsequent catastrophic fall into the material world."

So his mastery of the ALE abruptly and directly caused the cosmic war and his falling through the Multiverse? A fall which you, yourself, attribute to causing the Multiverse to collapse? How is quoting something which I posted myself doing anything but hurting your case and supporting mine? Final Crisis wouldn't have happened without the ALE. Darkseid needed it for his war. Mokkari used it to crack time/space. Cain enslaved Spectre to "unmake creation." The Multiverse was fixed by the Miracle Machine calculating the LE. It's that damn simple.

Tell onedumb, can just anyone do what Darkseid did? Because it's one thing to enslave souls, minds and wills. IT'S ANOTHER TO SURPLANT THEM AND USE 6 BILLION BODIES AS EXTENSIONS OF YOURSELF. The amount of concentration, multitasking and indeed, sheer scope indicates a vast consciousness beyond human comprehension. The ALE doesn't give the ability to control all those people as extensions of yourself, or use them as conduits for your power.


ANSWER ME THIS THEN. If Darkseid fell through and cracked space/time, then how big was he? This is the fatal flaw in your arguement. You're refusing to accept the other part of the equation, so to speak. Consider the scale, mass and curvature of space/time needed to cause a black hole. It's caused by an object of enormous mass whose gravity caves in on itself creating a hole in space/time.

EXACTLY HOW BIG WOULD DARKSEID HAVE TO BE TO CAUSE A BLACK HOLE AKA DOOMSDAY SINGULARITY, THAT WOULD CRUSH AND DRAG DOWN THE ENTIRE DCU MULTIVERSE?

It's really just a simpler explanation. A massive object, in this case, Darkseid, crashed into the past. Hence, the time distortion in Seven Soldiers. Darkseid appears in a human body, manifesting only part of his powers in an avatar. And now, we get to the point where reality catches up to the fact that Darkseid fell through. Darkseid himself begins fully manifesting inside Dan Turpin. What happens? A singularity begins forming. A massive heartbeat, that's what Supergirl said. "Space-time suddenly crumpled as if grasped by a fist."

It's the simpler explanation, but you won't hear of it, oh no. you can't admit this is the easier and more logical solution. Because if you do, then Darkseid's true power is evident. And the avatar arguement is proven true, thus meaning Darkseid was always at this level of power. "They have only ever faced the idea of god. Now is God himself manifest among them."

And this was a weakened, near dying Darkseid. But go on denying it. when everyone around you sees the truth, and you are in it's shadow denying it even as the sheer scale of the thing itself is beyond you. Like an ant trying to understand what the sky is, or what the wind is.

You stand in the footsteps of giants, and still you do not believe.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Tell onedumb, can just anyone do what Darkseid did? Because it's one thing to enslave souls, minds and wills. IT'S ANOTHER TO SURPLANT THEM AND USE 6 BILLION BODIES AS EXTENSIONS OF YOURSELF. The amount of concentration, multitasking and indeed, sheer scope indicates a vast consciousness beyond human comprehension. The ALE doesn't give the ability to control all those people as extensions of yourself, or use them as conduits for your power....

That's exactly what the ALE is capable of doing.

Nuff said.

Why don't we get back on topic which is darkseid with entropy aegis and no ALE versus Odin with the destroyer armor.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He used a different form of the damn ALE in Seven Soldiers. Morrison states that right in the damn scan! Are you not reading the whole thing? Let's read some more, he also says that, "We see only facets of the unimaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation." If it's entirety is just mind-control like you assert... wonder what could be so unimaginable about it. That's a pretty simple concept there.

The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the right to have mastery over all sentient life.

As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So his mastery of the ALE abruptly and directly caused the cosmic war and his falling through the Multiverse? A fall which you, yourself, attribute to causing the Multiverse to collapse?

What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space.

Originally posted by Allankles
The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the right to have mastery over all sentient life.

As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.





What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space. That's what I got too.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He lost, the Collective BFR'd him. Unfortunately a BFR = a win in forum debates. I haven't read this in a while, but I recall Iron Man calling off the Sentry.

Originally posted by Allankles
The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the right to have mastery over all sentient life.Good to see you concede that was a different form of ALE in Seven Soldiers. Was half-expecting you to equivocate around that. Moving forward, on-panel, the ALE lets human beings shoot Omega Finder beams out of their eyes. It isn't just mastery over all sentient life. It's mastery over all existence. And how else would that manifest other than all existence becoming you, literally.
Originally posted by Allankles
As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.You're equivocating with absolutely no support. Whenever anybody was caught by ALE, there was not a single scan of Darkseid personally struggling to make sure it's effects stuck. Mokkari used it while Darkseid was busy manifesting in Turpin. This was weeks before Darkseid actually manifested. Did you see Mokkari exerting himself when he pushed the button? Did you see any references to Darkseid having his power diverted over those weeks of ALE-infection, while destroying Turpin's soul? No and no. Your theory is completely unsupported.
Originally posted by Allankles
What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space.Your statement is completely unsupported. Not a single panel or statement by anybody said Darkseid cracked time and space. There are statements that the cosmic war broke time and space. There are statements that the moment the ALE was released time and space cracked. Stop acting like you have evidence. You don't. You don't have anything except what you think it to be, and ambiguous statements that could be literally read both ways if you weren't so tunnel-visioned; all against the backdrop that Final Crisis is the first time we see true Darkseid. Of couse, I have what I is what I think it to be, on-panel statements and scenes that support the ALE can crack time/space and is more than just mind-control, those very same statements you're quoting which also support me; all against the backdrop that Final Crisis is the first time we see true Anti-Life.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He lost, the Collective BFR'd him. Unfortunately a BFR = a win in forum debates. Originally posted by quanchi112
I haven't read this in a while, but I recall Iron Man calling off the Sentry. Knowsbleed33 is probably referring to when Sentry tackled him inter outer space and Collective pushed him away with a blast. Unfortunately, he misunderstands the idea of BFR. BFR is when you're removed from the battle-field and you can't get back under your own power. Sentry flies and did get back under his own power. So it wasn't a BFR.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Knowsbleed33 is probably referring to when Sentry tackled him inter outer space and Collective pushed him away with a blast. Unfortunately, he misunderstands the idea of BFR. BFR is when you're removed from the battle-field and you can't get back under your own power. Sentry flies and did get back under his own power. So it wasn't a BFR. Yeah, that is what I thought had happened but it was a few months back when I read it and I was too lazy to go hunting through comics to find out. I figured I was right that he wasn't bfr'd.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yeah, like Death of the New Gods was an avatar... an avatar that revealed that the ALE was far more than just mind-control. Dude. We don't use alternate universes, alternate futures. It's in the rules. Superman broke Wonderwoman's bracelets in two punches in an alternate future and he came back with that memory. We don't use the feat. Considering that Grant Morrison expressly referenced Cosmic Odyssey and never referenced Foundations, it was the latter that was retconned out of existence. Lulz. If your going resort to forum rules don't misuse them......the Darkseid that caused the time stream to collapse was in fact the same Ds, that appeared in the Dcu prior to Fc. The rule only applies to characters such as Maestro Hulk, Aoa Apoc, and such.....

It's some of the most illogical and head ache impending crap on planet, trying to get that message through certain peoples heads. Regular "vanilla" Darkseid caused the time stream's collapsing. And how the hell does Grant Morrison's non existant opinion on foundations, factor in?

And to what extent? Young Darkseid nearly caused the Dcu to collapse. I don't ever recall Ss and Thor causing something on that level. Your trying to make it sound like Darkseid having catastrophic effects as a result of tampering with time is foreign to him. Not only that, but your trying to dismiss my evidence(foundation) whilst not acknowledging the fact that it was normal canon Darkseid that did so.

Ugh, wrong....the life equation freed Wonder Woman and others, then others fought to spread it through out earth as so. Superman's wish on the Miracle Machine, recreated the multiverse, not the life equation. Again, you misinterpreted something and tried to provide it as a crutch to your argument.

Oh yes of course, and it wasn't the outlandish artifact your depicting it as. Want to know what's funnier and ironic? That article supports the idea that the Ale is simply an equation and not a multiverse warping Ig/Hotu rip off.

And this is an example why your argument is immensely flawed....it's based off unfounded beliefs and assumptions. First of all Darkseid didn't destroy the 4th world with the true Ale, the life equation like I said, didn't recreate the multiverse. Please enlighten me, where the hell did the Spectre state that the Ale was unmaking the multiverse?

Please, don't flatter yourself....the Ale isn't simple mind control, it's not just something on a telepathic level. It completely taints souls and wills. The Ale only effects biological lifeforms and things capable of having the ability to exist through their own decision making.

And you don't have to post that damn scan, over and over again.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Your statement is completely unsupported. Not a single panel or statement by anybody said Darkseid cracked time and space. T

The Lanterns stated in FC 5 that the impact of DS' descent /fall onto Earth caused space to crack across all space sectors, this is right after he'd fallen to Earth and inhabited Turpin's body, now you're saying they are no panels or statements? We're also told that the singularity originated from DS.

Also DS already explained what the ALE meant.

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0288/Untitled-10.jpg

Originally posted by Allankles
The Lanterns stated in FC 5 that the impact of DS' descent /fall onto Earth caused space to crack across all space sectors, this is right after he'd fallen to Earth and inhabited Turpin's body, now you're saying they are no panels or statements? We're also told that the singularity originated from DS.

Also DS already explained what the ALE meant.

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0288/Untitled-10.jpg

Unbelievable that Onedumb even after all this still does not get it, nice job Allankles and others. Where was the Black Hole Onedumb?? It was where Darkseids heart used to be, while Orion and him fought in the Fourth World that is what happened in there final battle where he ripped his fathers heart out and Darkseid fell into the material world cracking time and space! After this happens he is able to see Mandrakk draining the Multiverse and he takes precautions making sure Mandrakk won't show up only after Darkseid is finally gone does Mandrakk show up and he is taken down pretty quickly.. The ALE (Libra) was being used way before on people and it did nothing but what Morrison has said it does, One you use DTNG as if it was what really happened... It was what Superman could comprehend and some of the stuff didn't happen as shown. Superman never killed Darkseid all he did was loosen his grip on the Multiverse so the Black Racer could drag him away. After this the Miracle Machine was used to calculate the Life Equation to bring hope back to the Multiverse and reverse Darkseids corrupting presence had caused to the Multiverse. In Countdown ancient powerful magicans left and ran away because they feared him so much.

Originally posted by Allankles
The anti-life equation is the antithesis of the gift of the true god, as in it's more than just mind control in the sense that it is an equation that proves, that gives DS the right to have mastery over all sentient life.

As Haz stated, it is his remote control, Darkseid only possess the batteries he needs the pathway, the mechanism to complete domination, his power is nothing without the formula to impose that power.





What does the full manifestation of a god's spirit falling into a lower dimension have to do with the ALE? He fell through reality not because of the ALE, but because the 4th world was destroyed, his full manifestation merely fell onto Earth and said impact cracked all space.

It's foolish and downright illogical to attribute said event to the ALE, when the event has nothing to do with the ALE but DS' spirit descending and then inhabiting Turpin's body.

His spirit caused the multiversal impact upon landing on Earth, the ALE doesn't factor into his manifestation causing cracks across all space.

Well I'm at least glad that you admitted it was him falling and the war that first cracked time and caused the multiverse to collaspe. As I said him falling and causing such things to happen ISN'T his own power doing so. It's not like he stood there and has all this power to generate the multiverse collasping. Nope. He died and thus him dying is what causing the multiverse to collaspe. That speaks more to his meaning and in a sense importance in the multiverse then his powerset

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well I'm at least glad that you admitted it was him falling and the war that first cracked time and caused the multiverse to collaspe. As I said him falling and causing such things to happen ISN'T his own power doing so. It's not like he stood there and has all this power to generate the multiverse collasping. Nope. He died and thus him dying is what causing the multiverse to collaspe. That speaks more to his meaning and in a sense importance in the multiverse then his powerset

The war did not crack space and time, it was because OF THE WAR that Orion and Darkseids final battle and Orion ripping his heart out that caused him to fall and crack space and time, it has been stated many times! That is what it means! His importance means what?? The Source allowed him to die and the Multiverse was still around, it was his powerset and who he is that caused it.. Read Read Read

Originally posted by kevdude
The war did not crack space and time, it was because OF THE WAR that Orion and Darkseids final battle and Orion ripping his heart out that caused him to fall and crack space and time, it has been stated many times! That is what it means! His importance means what?? The Source allowed him to die and the Multiverse was still around, it was his powerset and who he is that caused it.. Read Read Read

Wrong him falling started and caused the chain reaction not his powerset. So, your saying if he didn't "fall" he could've just stood there and with a wave of his hand collaspe the multiverse? You know the answer to that question and it's NO. Therefore, clearly as depicted on panel and all that we know him "falling" is the cause of it all starting which is nothing to do with his power but his importance.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Wrong him falling started and caused the chain reaction not his powerset. So, your saying if he didn't "fall" he could've just stood there and with a wave of his hand collaspe the multiverse? You know the answer to that question and it's NO. Therefore, clearly as depicted on panel and all that we know him "falling" is the cause of it all starting which is nothing to do with his power but his importance.


So now your saying him falling and not the war doing it first started the collapse?? backtracking somewhat? His falling with his powerset of who he IS is what did it, he is the CENTER of his own powerset!!! And no if he did not fall he couldn't have collapse it, it was still filled with hope and Darkseids evil presence had not fallen into it to begin its collapse and even if he wished to destroy it earlier he couldn't have because it would spark a war with New Genesis (something he knew he would have to do before launching an attack on the Multiverse) and that is not what Darkseid wanted to do until his own choosing, and when he chose to he knew it would be a terrible war, against New Genesis tech is the most advanced in the DCU.

Hazsekswthurmom: There have been rulings on this. Superman in Absolute Power, shattered an alternate Wonderwoman's bracelets in two shots. He came back with that memory. In fact, it haunted him that he snapped Wonderwoman's neck. We don't use the feat.

Foundations is completely irrelevant. COMPLETELY. Messing with time does not correlate to completely collapsing space/time and the entire Multiverse in the slightest. Zarkko the tomorrow Man can screw with time. He can't collapse the entire Multiverse. Furthermore, Grant Morrison specifically mentions Cosmic Odyssey. And in that adventure, the ALE was more than just simple mind-control. How much plainer can you get as to which adventure would be more applicable to Final Crisis, an adventure he completely forgets and ignores? Or one in which he actually references on-panel? Not that hard.

I can't believe you're like Tricksterpriest. The big flippin tattoo that Ray creates on the Earth helps free people from ALE-induced slavery and Wonder Woman lassoing DS helps free people from ALE-induced slavery. Superman used the Miracle Machine ONCE. ONLY ONCE. At the very end of FC. It works its miracles by calculating the Life Equation. On-panel. Superman wished for the happy ending and everything was fixed. Stop trying to confuse yourself. Lord. The damn Miracle Machine could only be used once Superman found Metron's Element X to complete it and used his own solar energy to power it. How could the Miracle Machine been used to undo the ALE prior to this? GAWD. Reread Final Crisis right now. You obviously completely missed when Ray makes the huge tattoo on Earth and you completely missed when and how Superman uses the Miracle Machine.

Mokkari uses it, time/space and everythign is cracked. As recounted by Ray. On-panel. Cain and Spectre use the ALE to "unmake creation" and "rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." On-panel. The ALE-infected humans shoot Omega Finder Beams out of their eyes. On-panel. The Miracle Machine fixes the Multiverse by calculating the Life Equation. On-panel. The war in heaven and DS' fall were abruptly and directly caused by his mastery of the ALE. On-panel.

Get over yourself.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Lanterns stated in FC 5 that the impact of DS' descent /fall onto Earth caused space to crack across all space sectors, this is right after he'd fallen to Earth and inhabited Turpin's body, now you're saying they are no panels or statements? We're also told that the singularity originated from DS.

Also DS already explained what the ALE meant.

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0288/Untitled-10.jpg No. Read it again. The Lanterns state that the fall is causing the cracks to spread. How was it cracked in the first place? ALE. On-panel. Nobody is arguing that Darkseid isnt falling. It is by his falling that the Multiverse gets dragged into the singularity. The singularity originated because Orion took Darkseid's heart out and left a void.

Thanks for putting up the scan because it furthers this exact point. When you become all existence and you have a void in your heart, what happens to you, what happens to all existence that is you? It gets sucked inward. And that's exactly the peril throughout Final Crisis. And what is it that makes Darkseid master of all existence in the first place? ALE. Say it again. ALE.

Kevdude: You rambled on without saying a single thing that contested my assertions. It looks like you're trying to rebut assertions I made, but you ended up putting words into my mouth. I never even talked about the Black Racer. Why did you mention that? And you're wrong anyway. Superman never loosened DS' grip so Black Racer could take him away. The Flashes caused that by making the Omega Finder Beams hit DS. That's how the Black Racer gets to DS. After being a discorporated spirit, then Superman destroys him with counter-vibrations learned when he was travelling in the Bleed. You agree Orion left a void where DS' heart used to be. You agree LE was used to fix everything Darkseid did. So I don't see how we're arguing over that.

The singularity was the hole left from where Orion ripped out Darkseid's heart. A black hole at the center of the galaxy dragging down creation.

THINK FOR ONE SECOND. Exactly how powerful would someone have to be, for them to enter this dimension, and have their wound be comprehended as a doomsday singularity?! The black hole is where Darkseid's heart used to be. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!? The hole is part of Darkseid, and the reason why everyone is said it was a hell where everything was Darkseid, or that the multiverse was becoming Darkseid.

facepalm Your bullshit has been countered even by Grant Morrison himself. Take your DC hate elsewhere.

All i can say is Darkseid is one ugly *****

He thinks you're grotesque too. durkseid

Well atleast i don't have to mind control hoes to get some play

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The singularity was the hole left from where Orion ripped out Darkseid's heart. A black hole at the center of the galaxy dragging down creation.

THINK FOR ONE SECOND. Exactly how powerful would someone have to be, for them to enter this dimension, and have their wound be comprehended as a doomsday singularity?! The black hole is where Darkseid's heart used to be. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!? The hole is part of Darkseid, and the reason why everyone is said it was a hell where everything was Darkseid, or that the multiverse was becoming Darkseid.

facepalm Your bullshit has been countered even by Grant Morrison himself. Take your DC hate elsewhere. If you are master of all existence, such that all existence is now you... and you have a gaping void in your heart, than all existence will get sucked into that void. So what makes Darkseid master of all existence? ALE. What makes all existence now Darkseid? ALE. What started the whole war in heaven that was responsible for the destruction of the Fourth World and Orion leaving a gaping hole in DS' heart and DS falling through the Multiverse? ALE. Explained by Grant Morrison. ON-PANEL.

I don't have to even refer to other on-panel proof that ALE cracks time/space or supporting proof to dispel the wrong notion that ALE is only mind-control. ALE started the whole mess of Final Crisis and ALE serves as the literal theme of Final Crisis. How can you possibly divorce everything from the ALE? Only if you want to inflate some ambiguous and completely unsupported idea that DS could have done all this without needing the ALE. Ridiculous.

And stop using ad hominem. This has nothing to do with "DC haterade." How many mistakes have I pointed out to several of you posters where you've outright conceded your errors despite our disagreements over overarching plot? Just because you seem to have a friend who also thinks Superman somehow used the Miracle Machine twice doesn't make my opposing view DC haterade. I read Final Crisis because I'm a fan of DC comics. I didn't read it, just so I could post on this board and deride DS. And unfortunately, the myth that DS w/o ALE could do what he did in Final Crisis is so outright wrong, someone ought to point it out. Reading Final Crisis incorrectly in so many ways is the greater crime here. I've been quoting Grant Morrison non-stop, his scans, his work and his interviews. Please. Keep the palm on the face and show yourself the door.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The singularity was the hole left from where Orion ripped out Darkseid's heart. A black hole at the center of the galaxy dragging down creation.

THINK FOR ONE SECOND. Exactly how powerful would someone have to be, for them to enter this dimension, and have their wound be comprehended as a doomsday singularity?! The black hole is where Darkseid's heart used to be. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT!? The hole is part of Darkseid, and the reason why everyone is said it was a hell where everything was Darkseid, or that the multiverse was becoming Darkseid.

facepalm Your bullshit has been countered even by Grant Morrison himself. Take your DC hate elsewhere.

So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.

Originally posted by iceman24567
All i can say is Darkseid is one ugly ***** Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He thinks you're grotesque too. durkseid I lol'd.

oooo Trick....

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, I ask again Trick as I put this question to somebody else before... Could DS just wave his hand and have the multiverse collasping and dragging everything down with him and making everything DS (hell) The answer is no therefore that wasn't under his own powerset. It's really simple... The war... him falling and the ALE all caused the events to play out the way he did not his powerset.

The reason he was able to do what he did was because there was no 4th world to house his full manifestation. He descended into a lower dimension. Also there's the other element of trying to break all space and time to prevent a 5th world without him in it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0 Hazsekswthurmom: There have been rulings on this. Superman in Absolute Power, shattered an alternate Wonderwoman's bracelets in two shots. He came back with that memory. In fact, it haunted him that he snapped Wonderwoman's neck. We don't use the feat. facepalm Once again you apply faulty logic to something you have little understanding of.....predictable....The Wonder Woman feat doesn't have relevance to Superman because he PERFORMED IT ON AN ALTERNATE TIME LINE VERSION OF WONDER WOMAN. For all we know, she could of had class 50 strength and shittier equipment than normal canon Ww. The rules applies to characters from an alternate TIME LINE, or characters that had a feat involving alternate TIME LINE characters. Do you realize how laughable this argument is? It negates all forms of common sense and logic. It's about as retarded as saying " saw earth-1 Superman destroy a planet with his hv in another universe he visited, there for you can't use that feat because the no alternate universe rule".

The presence of young avatar Darkseid's being removed from the time stream, nearly caused the destruction of the Dcu. And yet again you've misunderstood my reasoning for bringing that feat up. You stated with your own words, that Darkseid has never exhibited temporal effecting powers when he in fact did. It's irrelevant to what extent it was, I was just trying to inform of what he has done.

And don't try to smear face with that Cosmic Odyssey Bs. Even though it's still canon, the concept of the Ale in that story, was completely disregarded and retconned by f#cking Jim Starlin himself

crylaugh Do you even know what the Miracle Machine is? It's basically a plot device that dates back to the pre-crisis era, that brings any ones fantasy or dream to reality. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with the Ale. It brought the multiverse back, but it's so called "life equation calculating" ability, has nothing to do with reviving the multiverse. Note how Luthor states that it looks like something capable of rewriting the laws of physics. And you know what? I'll gladly admit that Ww freed the rest of humanity, because she did. However the Miracle Machine did not need to calculate the Le to restore the multiverse, it was a goddamn plot device from the beginning.
Can you be more original and stop re posting the same irrelevant nonsense over and over again. Taken statements out of context and using it as evidence(nonsensical bullshit in your case) does not equate to a well structured argument. And do tell, when did Cain unmake creation with the Ale? I'd love to see what out of context dribble you'll provide me with, as "evidence".

And also Odg, has it ever occured to you, that Supergirl made that life equation statement, because at the time the heroes needed a quick solution to their Darkseid problem, in that case the life equation? Maybe things didn't go according to plan.......Cause you know......reality ended up being destroyed...........