Superboy Prime vs Darkseid (h2h)

kevdude

Originally posted by Enyalus
onedumbshit? Is that your new moniker, Trick?

Anywho, his stuff makes sense. Just like yours does. There's always contradictions in DC it seems. Hell, just like the "Black Racer can't go FTL" argument we were having...where it's right stated, but then he goes through a singularity which would lead you to believe he can. WTF?

So in short, there's evidence to support both sides, and I choose OneDumb's because I don't like you. stick out tongue

Some of what he says is right most wrong like the ALE, clearly hes wrong, everything in the material world is finally catching up with the events that happened beyond it in The Fourth World. As the ALE brought more beings under Darkseids control and more began to worship him he was able to begin to fully manifest in the Multiverse which his presence was to much and it started breaking down.. eek!

Enyalus

Originally posted by kevdude
he was able to begin to fully manifest in the Multiverse which his presence was to much and it started breaking down.. eek!

I assume you're talking about DS never 'showing his true form' until FC. And that's a BS interpretation. What DS says in FC 5 is just gloating. And the Secret Files thing? 'As with most of the weapons and artifacts from the higher vibratory world of the New Gods, we see only facets of the barely managable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation.' I wasn't aware Darkseid was an artifact...

I know Trick has posted a scan from NGv3 (I think it was) where Orion tells Darkseid the Boom Tube automatically shrinks them when they go to DC Earth's plane, but there's plenty of evidence against this. Off the top of my head you've got Genesis where all the heroes are brought to 4th World and are the same size as everyone else, without the aid of a Boom Tube. Ares was in fact larger than everyone else. Then you've got Apokolips Now where Superman, Supergirl, Superboy, Erads, and even Krypto are all roughly the same size as Darkseid and the other New Gods and parademons. Then most recently (I think) was Libra dispersing on this plane, traveling to 4th world and being reconstructed there...the same size as everyone else, also without a Boom Tube.

I'm sure there are plenty of other instances, but I really thought it was fairly obvious when Darkseid says, "They've only faced the idea of a God before" he was being his typical egotistical self. Much like any villain calls themself a god or says they're omnipotent, etc.

Hazsekswthurmom

Morrison said himself that fc was supposed to be the revelation of the true Darkseid........

Philosoph�a

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
onedumbshit

crylaugh

Allankles

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Morrison said himself that fc was supposed to be the revelation of the true Darkseid........

Yep! It was basically Darkseid in his full form without the filter that was the fourth world.

Allankles

Originally posted by Enyalus
Then most recently (I think) was Libra dispersing on this plane, traveling to 4th world and being reconstructed there...the same size as everyone else, also without a Boom Tube.

Actually, when Supergirl went to Apokolips without a boomtube she was no more than an insect to the denizens of that world. So there is comic book evidence of this. And this was much more recent than the terrible Hunter/Prey or Apokolips Now.

Of course a lot of authors will overlook certain aspects of canon. But those are mostly oversights and not retcons since they probably took place before before NG v3 and the more recent super girl incident.

Also Libra had become one with the universe (a giant) and that event precipitated his arrival on the higher dimension of the 4th world. Bonding with the universe may well have acted like a matter threshold.

Allankles

Originally posted by Enyalus

I'm sure there are plenty of other instances

Also Libra had become one with the universe (a giant) and that event precipitated his arrival on the higher dimension of the 4th world. Bonding with the universe may well have acted like a matter threshold. It is also explained that Libra no longer has a body and new one was reconstitued on Apokolips, lending evidence that he had a new cosmic form much like the other New Gods.

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0362/Untitled-16.jpg http://f.imagehost.org/t/0564/Untitled-17.jpg

In Genesis the other heroes were brought there by the New Gods as well and Ares became a giant to demonstrate that the power he had dwarfed all the forces arrayed against him. Again Genesis was before NG v3, so even if you disregard those factors it still takes place before Orion explained to Supes the deal.

Badabing

Why are people getting bashed in a thread they haven't yet posted?

kevdude

Originally posted by Hazsekswthurmom
Morrison said himself that fc was supposed to be the revelation of the true Darkseid........

thumb up

Some people just don't want to face the music. laughing

btw Darkseid.

What is this Apokolips Now I keep hearing about?? Comic? TV?

Enyalus

Originally posted by Allankles
Actually, when Supergirl went to Apokolips without a boomtube she was no more than an insect to the denizens of that world. So there is comic book evidence of this. And this was much more recent than the terrible Hunter/Prey or Apokolips Now.

I don't know what you might be referencing (A Supergirl issue? I don't read that.) But in Superman/Batman she was her same size...so was Wonder Woman when she came, etc.

no expression

And how does one get to 4th World (or 5th now) without the aid of a Boomtube?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You mean onedumbshit who uses subjective evidence that's contradicted by on-panel descriptions, half the books, and even Grant ****ing Morrison himself? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Ok there. Nice summation of my argument that is completely uncharacteristic of anything I've said. I've wholly adopted everything that's been thrown my way and carefully addressed all your arguments. I've provided a slew of scans, manyof which none of you wish to repost because of how obviously they tend to undermine your theories. It's you guys that have to ignore that it was stated on-panel that the ALE cracked time and space, that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his own fall, that humans could shoot Omega Finder beams out of their eyes and that Morrison himself reveals that DS was tooting his own horn the entire time. Good luck there. Maybe we can debate about how many wishes Superman made with the Miracle Machine again. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Allankles
As tp said odg make baseless theories. The ALE brought about a disastrous war in heaven, that doesn't mean it became a power up, when the FC article in question describes it as an equation that disproves the concept of free will. http://f.imagehost.org/t/0452/Untitled-28.jpg

It goes on to state in the very next few sentences that what we've so far seen of the ALE are "only facets of the barely imaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation." Meaning, the mind-control aspect is a mere facet. Try presenting everything to the audience (which unfortunately for you, clearly undermines your argument), instead of one piece that you can isolate in the hope that nobody actually clicks on the scan and reads for themselves. Your continuing accusations that my theories are baseless might be less laughable if you behave as such.
Originally posted by kevdude
Some of what he says is right most wrong like the ALE, clearly hes wrong, everything in the material world is finally catching up with the events that happened beyond it in The Fourth World. As the ALE brought more beings under Darkseids control and more began to worship him he was able to begin to fully manifest in the Multiverse which his presence was to much and it started breaking down.. Turpin fighting DS was what kept DS from manifesting, not any deficiency in beings under his control. I'm not sure what you're saying is really supported by anything we saw in Final Crisis. Additionally, this interpretation would tend to undermine the collective theory that the ALE had nothing to do with DS' fall and folding of the Multiverse.
Originally posted by Badabing
Why are people getting bashed in a thread they haven't yet posted? Because they know that I've corrected nearly a dozen mistakes concerning their reading of Final Crisis which even they've acknowledged, wholly separate and apart from any debate over Darkseid and the ALE. Because they also feel threatened by the stock that my interpretation has started to garner because it actually makes sense and is supported on-panel. As such, because their own arguments have actually conflicted with each other, they try to resort to appeal to numbers fallacies and engage in ad hominem attacks since they can't argue against simple, plain language as presented by Morrison and the comics themselves...

...

... or they're just schmucks. dur

Symmetric Chaos

Originally posted by Enyalus
'As with most of the weapons and artifacts from the higher vibratory world of the New Gods, we see only facets of the barely managable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation.' I wasn't aware Darkseid was an artifact...

"As with" would be the important part of that sentence.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
"As with" would be the important part of that sentence.

How is that significant? I underlined what was significant.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0452/Untitled-28.jpg

It goes on to state in the very next few sentences that what we've so far seen of the ALE are "only facets of the barely imaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation." Meaning, the mind-control aspect is a mere facet. Try presenting everything to the audience (which unfortunately for you, clearly undermines your argument), instead of one piece that you can isolate in the hope that nobody actually clicks on the scan and reads for themselves. Your continuing accusations that my theories are baseless might be less laughable if you behave as such.

Yeah first of all its not mind control. And the article already clearly defines the anti-life equation. To the beings of the multiverse the anti-life equation merely resembles mind control but it is a concept that disproves the concept of free will.

It is an abstract weapon, that is why its whole is "unimaginable", I don't know why you want to continue tooting your baseless theories, when the article in question has already defined what it does - disproves the concept of free will.

It's an abstract weapon, not a power up.

Darkseid cannot abide a universe that doesn't reflect his "perfect" vision, that's the reason why he seeks the ALE, so that only his vision prevails in the hearts and minds of all beings.

Thats where the quote "All is one in Darkseid" comes from, to unite all sentient beings in a universe where the old god's free will has been replaced with darksied's anti-life.

Morrison already explained this exactly in his FC interviews.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah first of all its not mind control. And the article already clearly defines the anti-life equation. To the beings of the multiverse the anti-life equation merely resembles mind control but it is a concept that disproves the concept of free will.

It is an abstract weapon, that is why its whole is "unimaginable", I don't know why you want to continue tooting your baseless theories, when the article in question has already defined what it does - disproves the concept of free will.

It's an abstract weapon, not a power up.

Darkseid cannot abide a universe that doesn't reflect his "perfect" vision, that's the reason why he seeks the ALE, so that only his vision prevails in the hearts and minds of all beings. Morrison already explained this exactly in his FC interviews. That is a possible, but not probable interpretation of the scan. Reasons: Mastery of ALE precipitates war in heaven and DS' fall. ALE cracked time and space. Humans infected by ALE can shoot Omega Finder Beams from their eyes. Life Equation fixes Multiverse.

Furthermore, nothing of the above actually goes to undermine any of my assertions. Also, you need to take your argument to comicfan11, kevdude, Tricksterpriest and The Great Galen. They have continually asserted that the ALE is only mind-control. Nothing more, nothing less.

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That is a possible, but not probable interpretation of the scan. Reasons: Mastery of ALE precipitates war in heaven and DS' fall. ALE cracked time and space. Humans infected by ALE can shoot Omega Finder Beams from their eyes. Life Equation fixes Multiverse.

Furthermore, nothing of the above actually goes to undermine any of my assertions. Also, you need to take your argument to comicfan11, kevdude, Tricksterpriest and The Great Galen. They have continually asserted that the ALE is only mind-control. Nothing more, nothing less.

Allankes is right, I have never said the ALE is 'just' mind control I said its that and more. It strips free will of all sentient beings and makes them one with Darkseid, that is why his Omega Beams shoots out of the peoples eyes, they are Darkseid, one mind one will that IS Darkseid. I don't think the others disagree with that either. You are not paying close enough attention.

Also the ALE theory of yours has already been debunked of cracking space and time. WE KNOW it was Darkseid that cracked it. With the ALE going world wide and all those beings started to worship DS he became more powerful and began his ascension into reality. The Miracle Machine made for 1 wish and it was for a happy ending considering all the depressing things that happened in FC. The GL Corps and the Supermen of the Multiverse stated by Nix Uotan fixed Symmery of the Orrery, as they dragged the Earth back to its original place. cool

fangirl101

Originally posted by Enyalus
How is that significant? I underlined what was significant. meaning weapons and artifacts TOO. Meaning just like the Gods have only been seen in their weakest forms.

Enyalus

Originally posted by fangirl101
meaning weapons and artifacts TOO. Meaning just like the Gods have only been seen in their weakest forms.

It doesn't mention gods. It only refers to weapons and artifacts of 4th World. There's nothing in there about only seeing a fraction of the gods true forms, and whatever.

kevdude

Originally posted by Enyalus
It doesn't mention gods. It only refers to weapons and artifacts of 4th World. There's nothing in there about only seeing a fraction of the gods true forms, and whatever.

Read the whole thing "As with" important and " higher vibratory world of the New Gods" important wink

TricksterPriest

Jesus christ...........people are claiming that the new god weapons and technology is outside comprehension and perception, but not the New Gods themselves? Even though that was the entire point of FC and clearly illustrated via Libra....?

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by kevdude
Allankes is right, I have never said the ALE is 'just' mind control I said its that and more. It strips free will of all sentient beings and makes them one with Darkseid, that is why his Omega Beams shoots out of the peoples eyes, they are Darkseid, one mind one will that IS Darkseid. I don't think the others disagree with that either. You are not paying close enough attention.No. Look at your own posts in the past. If you need help, search for the words "mind" and "control" and your own username under advanced search. It's what you've said before I started debunking that myth. As with each other poster I listed. Furthermore, taking a person's will does not not allow you to start shooting Omega Finder Beams out of their flippin eyes. Only by making their bodies literally his own, such that their existence is his, can you do that. Which is exactly more support that the ALE does more than just strip free will. Which is exactly more support that the ALE makes all existence you as I've continually asserted.
Originally posted by kevdude
Also the ALE theory of yours has already been debunked of cracking space and time. WE KNOW it was Darkseid that cracked it.False and completely unsupported. Nowhere is it stated that DS cracked it. Yet in two other on-panel instances, two other things are attributed to cracking space and time, both of which have to do with the ALE. The war in heaven which is specifically precipitated by the mastery of the ALE and the release of the ALE by Mokkari over the Internet. Sorry. But if you posted a scan that said DS cracked time and space and I continually refused to accept it, you'd scream bloody murder. As it is now, I can just keep posting the scans and look on with pity that you can honestly sit there and suggest the weight of evidence is on your side. When the ALE was released over the Internet, time, space, everything cracked. That's it. A press of a button. On-panel.
Originally quoted by kevdude
With the ALE going world wide and all those beings started to worship DS he became more powerful and began his ascension into reality. The Miracle Machine made for 1 wish and it was for a happy ending considering all the depressing things that happened in FC. The GL Corps and the Supermen of the Multiverse stated by Nix Uotan fixed Symmery of the Orrery, as they dragged the Earth back to its original place.DS became more powerful because the ALE was making everything him. You just agreed with everything I've been pointing out. I even warned you in the prior post that was happening and you still ended up doing it. That's fine, because that's how any logical reading of Final Crisis leads to even if you didn't realize it. If you become master of all existence, then all existence warps to approximate you, your image, your state of being. How would all existence warp if someone left a void in your heart? All existence would become a void, a singularity. How would all existence begin manifesting into a singularity? The fabric of space and time cracks and everything begins folding in on itself. What cracked time and space on-panel? ALE. What makes you master of all existence in the first place, as stated ON-PANEL? ALE.. Nuff said.

As for the LE as utilized by the Miracle Machine, what would the reverse of what I believe the ALE wrought be? Since I believe the ALE wrought massive damage to the Multiverse, then I must believe that the LE reverses and fixes said damage. And it does. How much more obvious can you get?

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. Look at your own posts in the past. If you need help, search for the words "mind" and "control" and your own username under advanced search. It's what you've said before I started debunking that myth. As with each other poster I listed. Furthermore, taking a person's will does not not allow you to start shooting Omega Finder Beams out of their flippin eyes. Only by making their bodies literally his own, such that their existence is his, can you do that. Which is exactly more support that the ALE does more than just strip free will. Which is exactly more support that the ALE makes all existence you as I've continually asserted.
False and completely unsupported. Nowhere is it stated that DS cracked it. Yet in two other on-panel instances, two other things are attributed to cracking space and time, both of which have to do with the ALE. The war in heaven which is specifically precipitated by the mastery of the ALE and the release of the ALE by Mokkari over the Internet. Sorry. But if you posted a scan that said DS cracked time and space and I continually refused to accept it, you'd scream bloody murder. As it is now, I can just keep posting the scans and look on with pity that you can honestly sit there and suggest the weight of evidence is on your side. When the ALE was released over the Internet, time, space, everything cracked. That's it. A press of a button. On-panel.
DS became more powerful because the ALE was making everything him. You just agreed with everything I've been pointing out. I even warned you in the prior post that was happening and you still ended up doing it. That's fine, because that's how any logical reading of Final Crisis leads to even if you didn't realize it. If you become master of all existence, then all existence warps to approximate you, your image, your state of being. How would all existence warp if someone left a void in your heart? All existence would become a void, a singularity. How would all existence begin manifesting into a singularity? The fabric of space and time cracks and everything begins folding in on itself. What cracked time and space on-panel? ALE. What makes you master of all existence in the first place, as stated ON-PANEL? ALE.. Nuff said.

As for the LE as utilized by the Miracle Machine, what would the reverse of what I believe the ALE wrought be? Since I believe the ALE wrought massive damage to the Multiverse, then I must believe that the LE reverses and fixes said damage. And it does. How much more obvious can you get?

Well I was comparing it to mind-control when I said that, I've also said it does more then that as it makes everyone who hears it makes them Darkseid. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. About the Miracle Machine we know Superman made 1 wish and that was for a good ending. Something else it did was reshrink and bottle the whole universe for protection from Mandrakk since the Black Hole which was where DS heart used to be and his fall caused it. (on the page after Mandrakk dies). Nix says "the germ-creatures Themselves reestablished the Symmetry of the Orrery, the "Multiverse" as they call it". On panel. The Miracle Machine (w/LE) did 1 thing while the GL Corps and the Supermen of the Multiverse did something else.

KuRuPT Thanosi

For the last fing time Trick, Allan Kev one question:

1. Could DS with a wave of his hand created the sigularity and starting dragging the multiverse down with him? Could with a wave of his hand he fold time and space like a piece of paper?

I think we all know the answer to these questions and that answer is NO he couldn't have done that with just his standard powerset. That is well beyond him to do and we all know he couldn't do it with a gesture. If it was that easy we would've seen him do this long ago or similiar stuff a long time ago. The facts are these.....

1. The war on panel was stated to crack time and space
2. Him falling caused the singularity NOT DS doing it with his own powerset
3. The ALE is way more then mind control which is what you guys were arguing at first. Then got proven wrong and changed your argument. However, the fact remains once DS mastered the ALE he won the war and the ALE helped him do all that he did and again NOT his own power. The ALE on panel as soon as it was spoken cracked time and space.

You ask how is the ALE a powerup... Well it's simple really.... have others used the ALE besides DS for their own purposes? Shoot it being spoken on the radio cracked time as space along with many others who have used it. You try and throw out all those times but the fact is it did happen and others can use the ALE which thus makes it a powerup NOT part of his normal powerset.

Allankles

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
For the last fing time Trick, Allan Kev one question:

1. Could DS with a wave of his hand created the sigularity and starting dragging the multiverse down with him? Could with a wave of his hand he fold time and space like a piece of paper?

I think we all know the answer to these questions and that answer is NO he couldn't have done that with just his standard powerset. That is well beyond him to do and we all know he couldn't do it with a gesture. If it was that easy we would've seen him do this long ago or similiar stuff a long time ago. The facts are these.....

1. The war on panel was stated to crack time and space
2. Him falling caused the singularity NOT DS doing it with his own powerset
3. The ALE is way more then mind control which is what you guys were arguing at first. Then got proven wrong and changed your argument. However, the fact remains once DS mastered the ALE he won the war and the ALE helped him do all that he did and again NOT his own power. The ALE on panel as soon as it was spoken cracked time and space.

You ask how is the ALE a powerup... Well it's simple really.... have others used the ALE besides DS for their own purposes? Shoot it being spoken on the radio cracked time as space along with many others who have used it. You try and throw out all those times but the fact is it did happen and others can use the ALE which thus makes it a powerup NOT part of his normal powerset.

The singularity is a result of DS total manifestation existing in a lower dimension (No more 4th world to house it), a sign of the level of power he's at, it's not a matter of a mere powerset but a matter of existing amongst lesser beings, in a lesser dimension.

He was the only New God that survived the war (Metron being the other). The other dark gods were recreated by DS according to how he remembered them, this is a theme carried over from Kirby about DS ability to resurrect the other Apokoliptans when they have died, it was an interesting idea in Hunger Dogs.

No. I never argued that the ALE is mind control. It is an abstract weapon, whose whole is unimaginable to the beings of the multiverse. A weapon that actually destroys concepts (in this case the concept of free will), you can't fully fathom how such a weapon would function, or be designed.

That's why even the components of the equation as it is given (the words) barely scratch the surface of what this concept killer is, that's why it's an abstract weapon.

kevdude

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
For the last fing time Trick, Allan Kev one question:

1. Could DS with a wave of his hand created the sigularity and starting dragging the multiverse down with him? Could with a wave of his hand he fold time and space like a piece of paper?

I think we all know the answer to these questions and that answer is NO he couldn't have done that with just his standard powerset. That is well beyond him to do and we all know he couldn't do it with a gesture. If it was that easy we would've seen him do this long ago or similiar stuff a long time ago. The facts are these.....

1. The war on panel was stated to crack time and space
2. Him falling caused the singularity NOT DS doing it with his own powerset
3. The ALE is way more then mind control which is what you guys were arguing at first. Then got proven wrong and changed your argument. However, the fact remains once DS mastered the ALE he won the war and the ALE helped him do all that he did and again NOT his own power. The ALE on panel as soon as it was spoken cracked time and space.

You ask how is the ALE a powerup... Well it's simple really.... have others used the ALE besides DS for their own purposes? Shoot it being spoken on the radio cracked time as space along with many others who have used it. You try and throw out all those times but the fact is it did happen and others can use the ALE which thus makes it a powerup NOT part of his normal powerset.

From what we have seen of lesser New Gods (creating small universe's), its not to hard to grasp that Darkseid who is the most powerful next to Highfather would be able to do it in full power, the thing is thats not what he wants, his goal was to destroy New Genesis then rule creation as they was the only beings able to stand against him. He ignored the Monitors who are also outside of the Multiverse and suppose to take care of the Multiverse, his attack was against NG. So there you go

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by Allankles
The singularity is a result of DS total manifestation existing in a lower dimension (No more 4th world to house it), a sign of the level of power he's at, it's not a matter of a mere powerset but a matter of existing amongst lesser beings, in a lesser dimension.

He was the only New God that survived the war (Metron being the other). The other dark gods were recreated by DS according to how he remembered them, this is a theme carried over from Kirby about DS ability to resurrect the other Apokoliptans when they have died, it was an interesting idea in Hunger Dogs.

No. I never argued that the ALE is mind control. It is an abstract weapon, whose whole is unimaginable to the beings of the multiverse. A weapon that actually destroys concepts (in this case the concept of free will), you can't fully fathom how such a weapon would function, or be designed.

That's why even the components of the equation as it is given (the words) barely scratch the surface of what this concept killer is, that's why it's an abstract weapon.

Okay both Allan and Kev you guys didn't answer any questions I posed because we all know the answers. NO he couldn't have just done what went down in FC with just his power set alone. Your argued for points that I didn't make and for things I already know and skipped over the questions. However, it's all good as we all know the answers. He couldn't have done what went down with a wave of his hand under his own power set. He needed all those things to fall into place into for things to play out the way they did. You further when on talking about what the ALE is and finally concede that it's more then what has been portrayed and more then just mind control. The things it can do is beyond imagination. That's all great and points ODG has been arguing this whole time. However, my question was.. have others used the ALE for their own benefit? It's really a simple question with a simple answer that goes directly to the fact that it's a power up of sorts not his and his only power set. Again, you guys keep talking about importance and no place to house him etc etc. I don't disagree with that and agree his importance and housing is what lead to things happening. Which is further my point that ISN'T his power causing the singularity to form or space and time to crack. He's not waving his hand and all this is happening. It was stuff out of his control and his importance and place in the universe that caused it all. Concession accepted.

fangirl101

I can't think of a single being under galactus that can take SBP in hand to hand.

kevdude

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay both Allan and Kev you guys didn't answer any questions I posed because we all know the answers. NO he couldn't have just done what went down in FC with just his power set alone. Your argued for points that I didn't make and for things I already know and skipped over the questions. However, it's all good as we all know the answers. He couldn't have done what went down with a wave of his hand under his own power set. He needed all those things to fall into place into for things to play out the way they did. You further when on talking about what the ALE is and finally concede that it's more then what has been portrayed and more then just mind control. The things it can do is beyond imagination. That's all great and points ODG has been arguing this whole time. However, my question was.. have others used the ALE for their own benefit? It's really a simple question with a simple answer that goes directly to the fact that it's a power up of sorts not his and his only power set. Again, you guys keep talking about importance and no place to house him etc etc. I don't disagree with that and agree his importance and housing is what lead to things happening. Which is further my point that ISN'T his power causing the singularity to form or space and time to crack. He's not waving his hand and all this is happening. It was stuff out of his control and his importance and place in the universe that caused it all. Concession accepted.

Yes we answered your question, read again. He could have forcibly gone to the Monitors and rip down the wall and break it from inside the chamber then seep in under his full power and destroy everything (unless The Source sends someone from Heaven) he would not be stopped. 2. Others have used the ALE, been used in DC and Vertigo but everything the ALE is is for DS himself, it in the end = Darkside.

TricksterPriest

The true form. That's the one thing every marvelite ignores. If the ALE is beyond imagination, WHY NOT THE NEW GODS THEMSELVES?

You can't think in more than 2 dimensions. It's inconceivable, that a being from a higher realm entering a lower one, would be disastrous for the lower. roll eyes (sarcastic)

psycho gundam

Originally posted by fangirl101
I can't think of a single being under galactus that can take SBP in hand to hand. wonder woman's braclets would block everything thrown at her, then she decapitates him with the lasso.

yes

fangirl101

New Gods in true form are not to be ****ed with. They are from the 4th world. Which really is a step up from the 3rd dimension. they would be just under the imps in power. Since the imps hail from the 5th dimension. Now that there is a5th world, they may have stepped up the ladder again.

fangirl101

Originally posted by psycho gundam
wonder woman's braclets would block everything thrown at her, then she decapitates him with the lasso.

yes

do not troll me. Or i'll report you.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The true form. That's the one thing every marvelite ignores. If the ALE is beyond imagination, WHY NOT THE NEW GODS THEMSELVES?

You can't think in more than 2 dimensions. It's inconceivable, that a being from a higher realm entering a lower one, would be disastrous for the lower. roll eyes (sarcastic)

A devil god from the 4th world crashed into the Earth and his entry into the lower dimension crushed space/time and began dragging the multiverse into a doomsday singularity where his heart used to be.

Your exactly right and that goes directly to his importance as crashing down into a lower dimension. Nobody is arguing that and that is my point. However, none of that was from his own power set causing that to happen as a matter a fact from the start not much was under his control in causing it to even happen in the first place. Your arguing my point trick. His presence in this dimension and importance power etc etc caused all shit to go haywire. No problem however, it was ds waving his hand and his power set causing all that happened is the only point.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by fangirl101
I can't think of a single being under galactus that can take SBP in hand to hand.

Galactus is renowed for h2h. I see him using his exotic powers to defeat prime not his h2h.

fangirl101

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your exactly right and that goes directly to his importance as crashing down into a lower dimension. Nobody is arguing that and that is my point. However, none of that was from his own power set causing that to happen as a matter a fact from the start not much was under his control in causing it to even happen in the first place. Your arguing my point trick. His presence in this dimension and importance power etc etc caused all shit to go haywire. No problem however, it was ds waving his hand and his power set causing all that happened is the only point. DS crash has nothing to do with an important aspect of the story. DS crash was dragging the multiverse down with his crash. We know that came from the crash. But there is a part where it is stated that time and space just crunched like a fist around the earth into a singularity. That was not due to the crash. That was DS trying to prevent anyone from escaping. That was caused solely by his power. The ALE specifically was used to control minds. If anyone things the Ale powered up ds, then why the hell didn't he just destroy everything and remake it?

Mindset

Originally posted by psycho gundam
wonder woman's braclets would block everything thrown at her, then she decapitates him with the lasso.

yes

kevdude

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your exactly right and that goes directly to his importance as crashing down into a lower dimension. Nobody is arguing that and that is my point. However, none of that was from his own power set causing that to happen as a matter a fact from the start not much was under his control in causing it to even happen in the first place. Your arguing my point trick. His presence in this dimension and importance power etc etc caused all shit to go haywire. No problem however, it was ds waving his hand and his power set causing all that happened is the only point.

It was because of his power and role, who he is which caused the crack, Orion ripped out his heart and it effected the Multiverse, showing everyone how much power DS has taken over the years to effect it that much. wink

fangirl101

So who is going to explain the sudden crunch in time and space like a FIST that caused everything to be trapped? Cuz that sure as hell wasn't the ALE and it wasn't from DS falling.

OneDumbG0

^ It was exactly from DS falling. As he manifested in this dimension, the ALE made him become more the master of all existence, such that all existence becomes Darkseid. How does all existence become Darkseid? When all individuals become him. When all existence changes to reflect his current state. And what's his current state? Dmaaged, evil, distorted... and at his core: a void, a singularity. When you have a void, a singularity at the core of all existence (especially concerning the lodestone of Earth-0), then everything crumples in upon itself. It's obvious. It's both literal and metaphorical. That's Grant Morrison.
Originally posted by kevdude
Well I was comparing it to mind-control when I said that, I've also said it does more then that as it makes everyone who hears it makes them Darkseid. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.No. False. In fact you're completely contradicting everybody I listed and yourself. A LOT of your "compatriots" disagree with that. Check this out:
Originally posted by comicfan11
There are numerous panel in the comics that prove ALE=mind control.
There isn't but a single panel that proves the ALE to be something else.
Originally posted by kevdude
Wrong again laughing out loud

the ALE was and IS mind control, nothing has been stated otherwise! The ALE was being used BEFORE Darkseid was manifesting into reality and nothing happened until that point, Libra spreading the ALE before is proof of that.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The ALE doesn't give the ability to control all those people as extensions of yourself, or use them as conduits for your power.
Originally posted by The Great Galen
It's what his powerset implies...and the ALE only had a effect on his control over minds it isn't a amp. Please. Don't act like all you guys agree with each other and I'm just a lone voice in the wind. Only fangirl101 and Allankles have consistently agreed that the ALE is more than just mind-control. And that concession was only clearly voiced AFTER I debunked the myth. Now, you yourself have switched that position after being called out upon it. But don't act like the rest of you guys agree with each other. And that dissonance amongst yourselves speaks volumes about your overall position.

fangirl101

Originally posted by fangirl101
So who is going to explain the sudden crunch in time and space like a FIST that caused everything to be trapped? Cuz that sure as hell wasn't the ALE and it wasn't from DS falling.

OneDumbG0

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The singularity is a result of Orion tearing out DS' heart. Manifesting with his mastery of the ALE forces all existence to conform to his state of being. And since his core is a singularity, the way the lower dimension, i.e. the Multiverse, would react is in fact, by crumpling in upon itself. How would such a crumpling of the Multiverse begin? By the very concepts of time and space cracking.
Orion survived as well. He was killed after the war.
And since the ALE actually cracks time and space on-panel, then what is the real problem accepting such a concept? Because you have some sort of unfulfilled wish that DS himself could do so? Please show me one panel that states that the ALE gave DS a power boost. If it did, how come there was even a war? he should have over powered everyone right? How did orion manage to rip out his heart with such a powerful boost? The only thing I can think of is that the new gods in thier true form are as stated, multiversal beings.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The singularity is a result of Orion tearing out DS' heart. Manifesting with his mastery of the ALE forces all existence to conform to his state of being.

Just to clear this up FC didn't go with Countdown's interpretation. DOTNG was the closest representation of what happened pre FC with the New Gods, but again even that doesn't represent what happened according to Morrison's vision. They were grafted in (extremely) loosely to FC. So yes Orion wounded him but we're not sure it was a matter of reaping out his heart.

OneDumbG0

^ We all know that. No need to state the obvious. It's still obvious that Orion gravely wounded Darkseid's true form in the Fourth World.
Originally posted by fangirl101
Please show me one panel that states that the ALE gave DS a power boost. If it did, how come there was even a war? he should have over powered everyone right? How did orion manage to rip out his heart with such a powerful boost? The only thing I can think of is that the new gods in thier true form are as stated, multiversal beings. Straw-man. Mastery of the ALE precipitated the war and DS' fall. The New Gods obviously had their own weapons, such as Metron's letter. Either way, it didn't help them in the end because they got wiped out anyway. Orion managed to rip out his heart in ways that cannot be conceived by our imagination, in keeping with the scope of Final Crisis. In Death of the New Gods, Orion did so by combining with the Source. That was obviously only one interpretation of what we could possibly know of what actually occurred. The New Gods obviously transcend the normal dimension. But since Grant Morrison specifically takes his time to show the effects of the ALE, to describe how the scope of the ALE is beyond imagination, to outright state that the ALE cracks time and space and outright state that the ALE precipitates the disastrous events of Final Crisis, it's obvious that you cannot divorce any of Darkseid's feats in Final Crisis from the ALE.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because you have some sort of unfulfilled wish that DS himself could do so?

Hardly, I just go by what was stated, explained and demonstrated. And it was DS that caused the singularity upon his manifestation in the material world.

According to Morrison he began warping reality and messing up the multiverse and continuity after the Radion poisoning as we see in FC 7, that part was just spite on his part.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Allankles
Hardly, I just go by what was stated, explained and demonstrated. And it was DS that caused the singularity upon his manifestation in the material world.

According to Morrison he began warping reality and messing up the multiverse after the Radion poisoning as we see in FC 7. No, according to Morrison, the warping of reality and cracking of time and space began in Final Crisis #4, well before Darkseid's defeat of Turpin's soul and before his actual manifestation in the lower dimension. I already posted these scans several times, they won't go away because you wish to be selective:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ We all know that. No need to state the obvious. It's still obvious that Orion gravely wounded Darkseid's true form in the Fourth World.
Straw-man. Mastery of the ALE precipitated the war and DS' fall. The New Gods obviously had their own weapons, such as Metron's letter. Either way, it didn't help them in the end because they got wiped out anyway. Orion managed to rip out his heart in ways that cannot be conceived by our imagination, in keeping with the scope of Final Crisis. In Death of the New Gods, Orion did so by combining with the Source. That was obviously only one interpretation of what we could possibly know of what actually occurred. The New Gods obviously transcend the normal dimension. But since Grant Morrison specifically takes his time to show the effects of the ALE, to describe how the scope of the ALE is beyond imagination, to outright state that the ALE cracks time and space and outright state that the ALE precipitates the disastrous events of Final Crisis, it's obvious that you cannot divorce any of Darkseid's feats in Final Crisis from the ALE.

Actually, grant in several interviews has stated that the New gods were so far beyond what they had been used for previously. It was his intent to show their power with or without the ALE. DS didn't have the ALE in Seven soldiers. And that according to grant is what happened before FC. in Seven Soldiers DS cracks time and space and creates alternate realties. Now, explain away that with the ale. Tee hee.

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, according to Morrison, the warping of reality and crackign of time and space begin in Final Crisis #4, well before Darkseid's defeat of Turpin's soul. I already posted these scans several times, they won't go away because you wish to be selective:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg
Did you forget that everything that was happening was happening in a weird backwards time thing. in reality, DS had been on earth and cracked time already in Seven Soldiers.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No, according to Morrison, the warping of reality and cracking of time and space began in Final Crisis #4, well before Darkseid's defeat of Turpin's soul and before his actual manifestation in the lower dimension. I already posted these scans several times, they won't go away because you wish to be selective:

Actually the part Morrison was talking about (DS warping reality and ruinign continuities was the result of the Radion bullet, and I already countered that ages ago with this scan.

"Space time around Earth just crumpled like it had been crushed with a fist." And my favourite: "The impact of Darkseid's fall is causing cracks to spread across all space sectors"

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0263/FC5p08.jpg

The relevant evidence of what I was talking about concerning what Morrison stated about what DS did after the Radion poisoning is here.

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0199/Untitled-07.jpg

You're talking about a moment that has no relation to what I was referencing. I was talking about what Morrsion stated was happening after the Radion poisoning.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by fangirl101
Actually, grant in several interviews has stated that the New gods were so far beyond what they had been used for previously. It was his intent to show their power with or without the ALE. DS didn't have the ALE in Seven soldiers. And that according to grant is what happened before FC. in Seven Soldiers DS cracks time and space and creates alternate realties. Now, explain away that with the ale. Tee hee. No. It's clearly stated that Darkseid uses the ALE in Seven Soldiers. It's stated plain as day in the scan in the page prior. Let me cut and paste the relevant sentences for your benefit:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life11.jpg

Tee hee indeed.
Originally posted by Allankles
Actually the part Morrison was talking about (DS warping reality and ruinign continuities was the result of the Radion bullet, and I already countered that ages ago with this scan.

"Space time around Earth just crumpled like it had been crushed with a fist." And my favourite: "The impact of Darkseid's fall is causing cracks to spread across all space sectors"Exactly, the impact. Not Darkseid himself. And this is Darkseid with mastery of the ALE. When you fall through the Multiverse, and you have the ALE which makes you master of the Multiverse, such that the Multiverse becomes you, what would the impact of falling through it do? Duh.
Originally posted by Allankles
The relevant evidence of what I was talking about concerning what Morrison stated about what DS did after the Radion poisoning is here.

You're talking about a moment that has no relation to what I was referencing. I was talking about what Morrsion stated was happening after the Radion poisoning. By then, the damage was already done. And you still cannot divorce that from when the ALE cracks time and space on it's own when Mokkari releases it over the Internet. So how does posting these scans do anything to contradict a single thing I've said? ALE-master Darkseid can warp all existence such that it becomes him. His only opposition is the other New Gods. He destroys them, but not without grievous wounds. After getting rid of them, he begins manifesting in the lower dimension of existence (since there is no higher existence anymore), and that existence begins warping to become him. Since he is evil, distorted and has a void, a singularity in his heart, how would our concept of existence be affected? It would distort, become evil and would have a singularity at it's center, Earth-0. When you have a singularity at the base of all existence, then time and space crack, then it breaks down and then it crumples upon itself.

How does this all start? When you master an equation that makes you master of all existence, such that existence literally becomes you: Anti-Life Equation.

How do I know the ALE does this? Because the skies rain blood? Meh. Nobody ever directly used the ALE on the skies. So that's debateable. Because time and space crack? Yea. Because Mokkari uses it on the Internet and time and space crack on-panel. Because normal human beings directly infected with ALE end up being extensions of DS' body such that they shoot friggin Omega Finder Beams out their eyes? Yea. Because it's stupidly obvious the ALE was used on them on-panel:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life10.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life05.jpg

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. It's clearly stated that Darkseid uses the ALE in Seven Soldiers. It's stated plain as day in the scan in the page prior. Let me cut and paste the relevant sentences for your benefit:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life11.jpg

Tee hee.
Exactly, the impact. Not Darkseid himself. And this is Darkseid with mastery of the ALE. When you fall through the Multiverse, and you have the ALE which makes you master of the Multiverse, such that the Multiverse becomes you, what would the impact of falling through it do? Duh.
By then, the damage was already done. And you still cannot divorce that from when the ALE cracks time and space on it's own when Mokkari releases it over the Internet. So how does posting these scans do anything to contradict a single thing I've said? ALE-master Darkseid can warp all existence such that it becomes him. His only opposition is the other New Gods. He destroys them, but not without grievous wounds. After getting rid of them, he begins manifesting in the lower dimension of existence (since there is no higher existence anymore), and that existence begins warping to become him. Since he is evil, distorted and has a void, a singularity in his heart, how would our concept of existence be affected? It would distort, become evil and would have a singularity at it's center, Earth-0. When you have a singularity at the base of all existence, then time and space crack, then break down and crumple upon itself.

How does this all start? When you master an equation that makes you master of all existence, such that existence literally becomes you.

How do I know the ALE does this? Because the skies rain blood? Meh. Nobody ever directly used the ALE on the skies. So that's debateable. Because time and space crack? Yea. Because Mokkari uses it on the Internet and time and space crack on-panel. Because normal human beings directly infected with ALE end up being extensions of DS' body such that they shoot friggin Omega Finder Beams out their eyes? Yea. Because it's stupidly obvious the ALE was used on them on-panel.

A new form of the ALE and what did it do? Tee hee. Cuz it was the omega force that warped reality. It sickens me that One would think that an ale would boost DS so greatly and yet there is still a war in heaven in which he still loses by falling. Obviously your theory of the ale being a power boost is a big fat no. Or Orion would have simply gotten steam rolled.

fangirl101

Question.

How does Orion, A being that many refuse to believe is anything more than a herald lvler, manage to cause DS to fall if DS has this great power up that supposedly makes him master of all reality"?

Since the ALE boosts DS so greatly that it is what allows him to literally crack time and space, how does Orion compete?

Unless Orion in his true form is already multiversal as are all the new gods and the ALE isn't the power boost that some want it to be.

Imagine Silver Surfer defeating thanos with the IG. Impossible.

That is basically what people are saying happened here since they think the ALE is an uber power up artifact/weapon.

Allankles

Originally posted by fangirl101
Question.

How does Orion, A being that many refuse to believe is anything more than a herald lvler, manage to cause DS to fall if DS has this great power up that supposedly makes him master of all reality"?

Since the ALE boosts DS so greatly that it is what allows him to literally crack time and space, how does Orion compete?

Unless Orion in his true form is already multiversal as are all the new gods and the ALE isn't the power boost that some want it to be.

Imagine Silver Surfer defeating thanos with the IG. Impossible.

That is basically what people are saying happened here since they think the ALE is an uber power up artifact/weapon.

I already know that the ALE is a concept that disproves the concept of free will, Morrison via FC secret files makes this clear, it's not a power up. Yes and the New Gods are multiversal as Libra points out, they are singular beings in the DCU.

I'm just entertaining odg, I'm giving him my abridged version of events as he insists on repeating points we've been over already.

EDIT: Also Morrison was depicting them as Kirby did, as embodiments of concepts.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by fangirl101
A new form of the ALE and what did it do? Tee hee. Cuz it was the omega force that warped reality. It sickens me that One would think that an ale would boost DS so greatly and yet there is still a war in heaven in which he still loses by falling. Obviously your theory of the ale being a power boost is a big fat no. Or Orion would have simply gotten steam rolled. Translation: "I was utterly wrong when I, fangirl101, tried to say that Darkseid did not have the ALE in Seven Soldiers. He did have the ALE and OneDumbG0 was right and I was wrong."

Your incredulity at Orion wounding Darkseid is disingenuous. You're already trying to argue that the New Gods are multiversal beings. So why wouldn't all the New Gods + Orion be able to fight Darkseid off in your warped opinion? Clearly, you're arguing against yourself now. But we know the real truth: the New Gods had their own weapons, some of which we don't see, one of which we do: Metron's letter. The New Gods also fought in a battle we didn't actually witness, so how they fought against Darkseid is mere speculation. What we do know is that they did, they lost, their entire vibratory dimension was destroyed and Orion himself wounded Darkseid. Therefore, suggesting that they couldn't do so, even though they had weapons, even though they obviously did, but in a pyrrhic victory... is just mere recalcitrance that only serves to undermine your own assertions.
Originally posted by fangirl101
Question.

How does Orion, A being that many refuse to believe is anything more than a herald lvler, manage to cause DS to fall if DS has this great power up that supposedly makes him master of all reality"?

Since the ALE boosts DS so greatly that it is what allows him to literally crack time and space, how does Orion compete?The New Gods had their own weapons. And Orion didn't cause DS' fall. The war in heaven caused by mastery of the ALE caused DS' fall into our Multiverse as a result of their higher vibratory dimension of existence being plain destroyed. There's nowhere to exist except the lower dimension. What happens when you manifest into a lower dimension from a higher dimension? You fall. Duh.

Orion doesn't compete as basically got sh1t-hammered after all the other New Gods died fighting and their entire vibratory plane of existence was destroyed. They had their weapons and artifacts. Death of the New Gods suggested that Orion merged with the Source to counter Darkseid's mastery of the ALE. Do we have one version of how it could have happened? Yes. Do we know how it actually happened? No. Can we discount the possibility that the New Gods used their artifacts and weapons and some plot-device to resist just hard enough to manage a pyrrhic loss against Darkseid? Obviously not. What are we left with? Evidence that the ALE precipitated everything, evidence that it affects time and space, evidence that it is more than mind-control, evidence that it makes existence become DS. It all connects. The only thing that prevents you from seeing it is the hope that DS, on his own power, could do everything leading up to Final Crisis and during Final Crisis without the ALE. And that's nothing short of foolish.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Dude you don't have to write essays. We're human, just stick to the gist of the argument.

OneDumbG0

^ Fine. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE precipitated everything before Final Crisis. As stated by Grant Morrison. ALE is more than mind-control as proven on-panel. Grant Morrison states we haven't seen the unimaginable whole that is the ALE. ALE pervades every single part of Final Crisis as is plainly obvious.

When the ALE is responsible for many of the feats we see during Final Crisis and is especially responsible for certain feats that had nothing to do with Darkseid's own utilization of his power since he hadn't manifested himself yet, i.e. cracking time and space when Mokkari releases it on the Internet... for you to suggest that Darkseid could do everything he did in Final Crisis without the ALE... is nothing short of absurd. And your positions are tenuous at best since you guys have been corrected multiple times about mistakes in Final Crisis which even you guys admit. And moreover when you guys can't even agree amongst yourselves about many of your arguments.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Fine. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE precipitated everything before Final Crisis. As stated by Grant Morrison. ALE is more than mind-control as proven on-panel. Grant Morrison states we haven't seen the unimaginable whole that is the ALE. ALE pervades every single part of Final Crisis as is plainly obvious.

First of all "precipitates" doesn't mean anything with regards to the ALE's function. Essentially what it means is that when DS acquired the full ALE, New Genesis was forced to go to war with Apokolips, a full scale do-or-die-war. This war proved disastrous and ended the 4th world, nothing more, nothing less.

the effects of that disaster reverberate throughout the multiverse precipitating the arrival of a 5th world ( a new reality) a 5th world which DS wants to prevent because he is falling from of the war in heaven.

The ALE's whole is unimaginable because it is a weapon that attacks concepts. It is not a material weapon and therefore cannot be understood by material principles. It's whole is unimaginable because it is an abstract weapon.

The ALE is a concept "weapon" not a power up.

Mindset

Why don't you guys just ask Morrison what he meant, I'm sure he isn't busy.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Allankles
First of all "precipitates" doesn't mean anything with regards to the ALE's function. Essentially what it means is that when DS acquired the full ALE, New Genesis was forced to go to war with Apokolips, a full scale do-or-die-war. This war proved disastrous and ended the 4th world, nothing more, nothing less.Completely baseless statements. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE directly and abruptly caused the war in heaven and his own fall, as stated by Morrison himself. That's all we know. You make it sound like the New Gods entered some preemptive strike against Apokolips. And this war didn't just prove disastrous for the Fourth World. It completely and utterly destroys it, leaving no place to go for Darkseid's form to manifest except the lower dimension. So obviously it is something more than what you state.

Instead of arguing with me, try arguing with the other posters who have continually stated that the ALE is only mind-control and get your own interpretations straight with each other. When you guys are done falling over each other trying to argue with me, maybe then you can posture like you've set forth some unified front of solidarity and are "entertaining" me.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Completely baseless statements. Darkseid's mastery of the ALE directly and abruptly caused the war in heaven and his own fall, as stated by Morrison himself. That's all we know. You make it sound like the New Gods entered some preemptive strike against Apokolips. And this war didn't just prove disastrous for the Fourth World. It completely and utterly destroys it, leaving no place to go for Darkseid's form to manifest except the lower dimension. So obviously it is something more than what you state.

Instead of arguing with me, try arguing with the other posters who have continually stated that the ALE is only mind-control and get your own interpretations straight with each other. When you guys are done falling over each other trying to argue with me, maybe then you can posture like you've set forth some unified front of solidarity and are "entertaining" me.

The ALE is inert without someone actively wielding it, so obviously the war was ignited by the parties involved because of who was in possession of it. "Precipitate" only serves to point out that a full scale war broke out abruptly, immediately after DS had mastered the ALE.

The article states that this war devastated the 4th world, it never says the ALE devastated it, but the war

We also get a glimpse of how DS fought this war, as he states that Orion was destined to die in "final" battle, splintlered like light through a prism in an infinite number of deaths.

And he kills him at the moment where time coalesces into one time, at a moment where Orion no longer exists, with a gun that shoots backwards in time. The whole event was like a time paradox.

Not to mention motherbox protects the New Gods from the ALE.

OneDumbG0

^ No. I've pointed out a dozen times that precipitate doesn't simply mean precede. It means to abruptly cause or bring about.

The article states that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his subsequent fall.

Anything else you said is stating the obvious and does nothing to rebut any of my assertions. In fact, this has been happening a lot where you or kevdude start bringing up completely random things about Final Crisis that have nothing to do with the immediate conversation. Yet you present them as if they are rebuttals to some imaginary point I made. Orion gets killed by bullet? So what? Also, IIRC, Motherboxxx never protected anyone from the ALE's stripping of free will.

TricksterPriest

I see your arguement, and raise you this.

If the New Gods are not multiversal, then explain Libra. Motherboxx helped protect Shilo Norman. 7 Soldiers.

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ No. I've pointed out a dozen times that precipitate doesn't simply mean precede. It means to abruptly cause or bring about.

The article states that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his subsequent fall.

Anything else you said is stating the obvious and does nothing to rebut any of my assertions. In fact, this has been happening a lot where you or kevdude start bringing up completely random things about Final Crisis that have nothing to do with the immediate conversation. Yet you present them as if they are rebuttals to some imaginary point I made. Orion gets killed by bullet? So what? Also, IIRC, Motherboxxx never protected anyone from the ALE's stripping of free will.

I don't see what you 2 are arguing about, we all know the war happened before he fell.. Anyway again when I (and from what I've seen Comicfan say, but well have to ask him himself) mind control I meant it as removing free will and making them Darkseid, others have used it before it was said online and it did not crack space time, maybe I should have said that but at least I admit it. You read 1 page and take it as the whole FC story revolves around it, read the whole thing. I agree with you on some things One. The whole point tho is when Morrison stated himself that DS fell into the black hole and down to the Multiverse breaking things along the way.. What more do you want? smile

manx422

there is only one set of new gods

KuRuPT Thanosi

When are you guys going to give it up. The evidence is on our side and not yours. YOu guys even admitted DS couldn't have just stood there and waved his hand and time and space cracking and folding and cause a sigularity. Those were all things outside of his control and powerset and were possible only with the ALE. He could have never just done what happened in FC on his own with his own powerset that is made clear in FC. What's is also clear and stated on panel numerous times is the ALE is a powerup of sorts. If others have used it for their purposes that means it's a power-up DS and DS alone to use. Give it up guys. FC spoke more to me about DS importance and in a way his power. However, lets not act like he couldn't done any of this without the war, falling, ALE. PERIOD

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ No. I've pointed out a dozen times that precipitate doesn't simply mean precede. It means to abruptly cause or bring about.

The article states that DS' mastery of the ALE precipitated the war in heaven and his subsequent fall.

Anything else you said is stating the obvious and does nothing to rebut any of my assertions. In fact, this has been happening a lot where you or kevdude start bringing up completely random things about Final Crisis that have nothing to do with the immediate conversation. Yet you present them as if they are rebuttals to some imaginary point I made. Orion gets killed by bullet? So what? Also, IIRC, Motherboxxx never protected anyone from the ALE's stripping of free will.

Precipitated means the war was brought about abruptly upon DS' mastery of the ALE. Also in FC (and other stories) motherbox protects the new gods from the ALE - its an idea that originated with Kirby.

DS' fall was caused by the destruction of the 4th world (heaven) by that war not the ALE itself, the war (the fighting) destroyed their universe not the equation.

Allankles

Originally posted by manx422
there is only one set of new gods

They are singular beings in the multiverse and they embody concepts as Kirby demonstrated and now Morrison.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I see your arguement, and raise you this.

If the New Gods are not multiversal, then explain Libra. Motherboxx helped protect Shilo Norman. 7 Soldiers. What do you want to know about Libra? Metron and Shilo's status as the Source's avatar of life and freedom helped protect Shilo Norman in Seven Soldiers. Motherboxxx never counters any effects of the ALE to my recollection in either Seven Soldiers or Final Crisis. It wouldn't surprise me that she could, I just don't remember it happening.

I don't remember ever engaging in a debate about whether the New Gods are multiversal or not. You're talking to others about that. It's a misplaced inquiry imo. They exist in a higher vibratory plane of existence. Whether that's multiversal, like Living Tribunal or Spectre are multiversal, is wholly irrelevant. What's relevant is whether DS w/o the ALE could do everything he did in Final Crisis. Considering he searched for the ALE his entire career, finally mastered the ALE and that single event started the sh1tstorm that was Final Crisis, you've already got an uphill battle to climb because DS is never without the ALE throughout all of Final Crisis. Considering that the ALE on it's own also performs things completely independent of DS' own exertion of power, you've got an obstacle none of you have gotten past except by claiming ignorance.

Now answer this: If the New Gods are Multiversal in their true form and can cause such great damage simply by manifesting in a lower dimension, why didn't Orion's manifesting cause any damage? Orion's true body manifested in a pile of garbage on Earth-0. Any massive upheaval in the multiversal structure there? No. What's an obvious difference that could explain the clear disparity between their respective effects on the lower dimension?

DS mastered the ALE, which makes him master of all existence, such that existence becomes him. And DS himself is distorted, evil and contains a singularity in his heart. His mastery of the ALE forces existence to conform to that. That forcible conforming manifests itself as time and space breaking down and collapsing into a singularity at the base of all existence, Earth-0. Since it's Earth-0, it causes a correlative effect across all parallel universes, the entire multiverse, hence multiverse collapses. That's what happens. And it's all predicated on mastery of the ALE making you master of all existence, such that existence becomes you.

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What do you want to know about Libra? Metron and Shilo's status as the Source's avatar of life and freedom helped protect Shilo Norman in Seven Soldiers. Motherboxxx never counters any effects of the ALE to my recollection in either Seven Soldiers or Final Crisis. It wouldn't surprise me that she could, I just don't remember it happening.

I don't remember ever engaging in a debate about whether the New Gods are multiversal or not. You're talking to others about that. It's a misplaced inquiry imo. They exist in a higher vibratory plane of existence. Whether that's multiversal, like Living Tribunal or Spectre are multiversal, is wholly irrelevant. What's relevant is whether DS w/o the ALE could do everything he did in Final Crisis. Considering he searched for the ALE his entire career, finally mastered the ALE and that single event started the sh1tstorm that was Final Crisis, you've already got an uphill battle to climb because DS is never without the ALE throughout all of Final Crisis. Considering that the ALE on it's own also performs things completely independent of DS' own exertion of power, you've got an obstacle none of you have gotten past except by claiming ignorance.

Now answer this: If the New Gods are Multiversal in their true form and can cause such great damage simply by manifesting in a lower dimension, why didn't Orion's manifesting cause any damage? Orion's true body manifested in a pile of garbage on Earth-0. Any massive upheaval in the multiversal structure there? No. What's an obvious difference that could explain the clear disparity between their respective effects on the lower dimension?

DS mastered the ALE, which makes him master of all existence, such that existence becomes him. And DS himself is distorted, evil and contains a singularity in his heart. His mastery of the ALE forces existence to conform to that. That forcible conforming manifests itself as time and space breaking down and collapsing into a singularity at the base of all existence, Earth-0. Since it's Earth-0, it causes a correlative effect across all parallel universes, the entire multiverse, hence multiverse collapses. That's what happens. And it's all predicated on mastery of the ALE making you master of all existence, such that existence becomes you.
Neither Orion nor Orion manifested in their True form in FC. They weren't Giants. Orion was all energy and DS used a human host. Where di you get that they manifested in their True forms on earth? As a matter of fact the Gods complained about their weak host bodies.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by fangirl101
Neither Orion nor Orion manifested in their True form in FC. They weren't Giants. Orion was all energy and DS used a human host. Where di you get that they manifested in their True forms on earth? As a matter of fact the Gods complained about their weak host bodies. Whatever labels you use to equivocate between them manifesting doesn't matter. Darkseid manifested in the lower dimension. Orion manifested in the lower dimension. Darkseid created a multiversal upheaval. Orion did not. The obvious difference to explain the clear disparity between their respective effects? Mastery of ALE which makes you master of all existence, such that all existence literally becomes you. Very simple.

TricksterPriest

So you refuse to even consider the idea of Darkseid's full manifestation in a lower realm as the reason for space time's collapse?

Orion was here in boomtubed form, that's the difference.

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Whatever labels you use to equivocate between them manifesting doesn't matter. Darkseid manifested in the lower dimension. Orion manifested in the lower dimension. Darkseid created a multiversal upheaval. Orion did not. The obvious difference to explain the clear disparity between their respective effects? Mastery of ALE which makes you master of all existence, such that all existence literally becomes you. Very simple.
No. How much new gods do you read? The Reason DS created an Upheaval is becuz of his role and power. Remember when he was removed from the time stream and he was causing all reality to be destroyed? No ALE there. Game set and match.

OneDumbG0

^ What storyline are you referring to?
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
So you refuse to even consider the idea of Darkseid's full manifestation in a lower realm as the reason for space time's collapse?

Orion was here in boomtubed form, that's the difference. It's possible, but with all the evidence that supports the ALE giving DS the actual means to distort reality into his own image, it's not probable.

When did he boomtube in? Speculation?

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's possible, but with all the evidence that supports the ALE giving DS the actual means to distort reality into his own image, it's not a probable.

When did he boomtube in? Speculation?
There is no evidence what so ever that the ALE gave DS that kind of power. The whole story goes against that theory since DS was taking over people's minds via the web and shit. What kind of power up is the ALE if he has to use helmets and the web to take over? If the ALE makes all reality under one's rule, why the slow process? makes no sense what so ever that the ale gave DS anything more than the power to strip free will.

KuRuPT Thanosi

At least though you guys have conceded that the ALE is way more then the quotes you guys originally said lol. Furthermore, you have conceded that DS didn't cause most of what happened under his own power. He couldn't have just waved his hand and caused space and time to collaspe lol. I can't believe you ignored what was on panel and instead tried to hide behind ooo it's his true form. Like he could've just easily folded space and time this whole time yet never did lol. The reason because the war and him falling into a lower dimension and his mastery of the ale caused most of it. Some of it was obviously his importance and some power in the senes that once the ball got rolling the war, him falling, singularity etc then sure he went with it and used some power. Who knows when and how but that is fine. However, to say he could just do it with a gesture is hilarious and ignores what's on panel. He never has and never could period.

Allankles

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
So you refuse to even consider the idea of Darkseid's full manifestation in a lower realm as the reason for space time's collapse?

Orion was here in boomtubed form, that's the difference.

Even after FC stated the impact of his fall caused the singularity he refuses to consider it. Even when the guardians state the destructive emanations warping space time are coming from DS. erm

Worse, even after secret files describe it as an equation that disproves the concept of free will.

fangirl101

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
At least though you guys have conceded that the ALE is way more then the quotes you guys originally said lol. Furthermore, you have conceded that DS didn't cause most of what happened under his own power. He couldn't have just waved his hand and caused space and time to collaspe lol. I can't believe you ignored what was on panel and instead tried to hide behind ooo it's his true form. Like he could've just easily folded space and time this whole time yet never did lol. The reason because the war and him falling into a lower dimension and his mastery of the ale caused most of it. Some of it was obviously his importance and some power in the senes that once the ball got rolling the war, him falling, singularity etc then sure he went with it and used some power. Who knows when and how but that is fine. However, to say he could just do it with a gesture is hilarious and ignores what's on panel. He never has and never could period. The ALE NEVER gave that kind of power over space and Time. It never powered him up. When Scott had it, It didn't give him power over space and time. He clearly used it to controll free will. DS when he had it in countdown and in DOTNG was able to use it to control his mind but not his body. No space time was mentioned or used anywhere in the HISTORY of the ALE.

OneDumbG0

You never answered my question. No matter, we both could see where that was heading.
Originally posted by fangirl101
There is no evidence what so ever that the ALE gave DS that kind of power. The whole story goes against that theory since DS was taking over people's minds via the web and shit. What kind of power up is the ALE if he has to use helmets and the web to take over? If the ALE makes all reality under one's rule, why the slow process? makes no sense what so ever that the ale gave DS anything more than the power to strip free will. Mokkari cracked time and space with it. Life Equation fixes Multiverse. Cain orders Spectre to unmake creation and reshape it into Darkseid's form. Etc, etc, etc.

Don't revert. You know better than most, that the ALE does more than strip free will. It makes people Darkseid, that is indisputable. You're just resistant to the idea that it makes all existence Darkseid, despite everything in existence mirroring exactly what is happening to Darkseid himself.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You never answered my question. No matter, we both could see where that was heading.
Mokkari cracked time and space with it. Life Equation fixes Multiverse. Cain orders Spectre to unmake creation and reshape it into Darkseid's form. Etc, etc, etc.
the absences of their free will is an antithesis of life - anti-life.

The ALE turned Earth's technology into a weapon against the concept of free will, the beginning of the end.

No. The Spectre spread out the ALE to enslave more souls, to unmake the old god's gift (free will) and replace it with anti-life. Read Revelations from issue 1 for the specifics.

The plan for unmaking creation was to disprove the old god's concept of free will, which is what Revelations is all about form issue # 1.

You're the one completely missing the picture, by reshaping life DS reshapes creation (since sentient beings are the creation).

Here we see what the concept of free will, means. It is the divine spark in all sentient life, taking it away unmakes god's creation. As we see with these ALE victims, the absences of their free will is an antithesis of life - anti-life.

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0469/FCR3p03.jpg

fangirl101

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You never answered my question. No matter, we both could see where that was heading.
Mokkari cracked time and space with it. Life Equation fixes Multiverse. Cain orders Spectre to unmake creation and reshape it into Darkseid's form. Etc, etc, etc.

Don't revert. You know better than most, that the ALE does more than strip free will. It makes people Darkseid, that is indisputable. You're just resistant to the idea that it makes all existence Darkseid, despite everything in existence mirroring exactly what is happening to Darkseid himself.
And I am Thinking Superman and the wish machine fixed the situation. with the monitor's rebuilding the multiverse. Or something like that. I sure as hell didnt' see Mokkari. And if the ALE literally controlled all time and space, Then Mandrakk would have had a big problem with DS. Since the Multiverse was actually mandrakk's brain.

Allankles

God's gift to mankind was free will. Where there is no free will...

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0330/FCR3p18-19.jpg

...Anti-Life.

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0359/FCR3p20.jpg

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You never answered my question. No matter, we both could see where that was heading.
Mokkari cracked time and space with it. Life Equation fixes Multiverse. Cain orders Spectre to unmake creation and reshape it into Darkseid's form. Etc, etc, etc.

Don't revert. You know better than most, that the ALE does more than strip free will. It makes people Darkseid, that is indisputable. You're just resistant to the idea that it makes all existence Darkseid, despite everything in existence mirroring exactly what is happening to Darkseid himself.

Don't know what you 2 are arguing about, the ALE replaces free will and replaces it with Darkseids will. If everyone in existence is taken over by the ALE which makes you Darkseid. Again the Miracle Machine never fixed the Multiverse, that was done by the GL Corps and Supermen of the Multiverse as they pulled Earth 0 back to its original spot. Everything that all the evil New Gods did, was they was willed to do by Darkseid himself. Orion was boomtubed as it is the only reason hes that size, he was also not evil or nearly trying to replace the Source.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by Allankles
No. The Spectre spread out the ALE to enslave more souls, to unmake the old god's gift (free will) and replace it with anti-life. Read Revelations from issue 1 for the specifics.False misrepresentation. Spectre spread out the ALE to unmake creation, which is separate from God's gift of free will. How do I know that creation is separate from free will? Because it's spelled out here, "After Creation, God's gift to mankind was free will."

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life12.jpg

They are separate things. And what does Cain specifically command Spectre to do? "Unmake creation. Rebuild the world in Darkseid's name!"

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life13.jpg

Reread all of Final Crisis: Revelations for the specifics, thanks much.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by fangirl101
And I am Thinking Superman and the wish machine fixed the situation. with the monitor's rebuilding the multiverse. Or something like that. I sure as hell didnt' see Mokkari. And if the ALE literally controlled all time and space, Then Mandrakk would have had a big problem with DS. Since the Multiverse was actually mandrakk's brain. Mokkari with a press of a button, released the ALE over the Internet and time and space cracked, WELL before DS manifested:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg

Mandrakk was separate and apart from the Multiverse, he was the first Monitor. He fed off the stories of the Multiverse. Mandrakk only attacked AFTER DS was disposed with. Reread Final Crisis #7. Even when Grant Morrison offers a disjointed narrative, Superman destroys Darkseid with counter-vibrations and THEN Mandrakk appears AFTER Superman loses his voice.
Originally posted by kevdude
Don't know what you 2 are arguing about, the ALE replaces free will and replaces it with Darkseids will. If everyone in existence is taken over by the ALE which makes you Darkseid. Again the Miracle Machine never fixed the Multiverse, that was done by the GL Corps and Supermen of the Multiverse as they pulled Earth 0 back to its original spot. Everything that all the evil New Gods did, was they was willed to do by Darkseid himself. Orion was boomtubed as it is the only reason hes that size, he was also not evil or nearly trying to replace the Source. As you said, the ALE makes you become Darkseid. The Miracle Machine fixed the Multiverse. You are speculating that Orion was boom-tubed. Considering that the Fourth World was destroyed and both Orion and Darkseid were survivors and manifested in the lwer dimension, for you to assume Orion boom-tubed in is pure speculation. A different New God manifested, as stated and reinforced by the Guardians' statements about him. He didn't break the Multiverse by manifesting. That contradicts your interpretations that New Gods, on their own, can distort the entire multiverse merely by manifesting. What goes to explain the obvious disparity between the respective effects of Orion and Darkseid? Mastery of the ALE, which makes all existence, you. Orion didn't have the ALE when he manifested. He died in a garbage heap after being shot by a Radion bullet. Darkseid had the ALE when he manifested. All existence began distorting, turning evil and eventually collapsed upon a singularity, just as Darkseid's own form was. What's so hard to understand here?

Mekrob

So... Prime kills Darkseid?

Mindset

Originally posted by Mekrob
So... Prime kills Darkseid? Please stay on topic.

SBP vs. Darkseid has nothing to do with this thread.

Mekrob

Originally posted by Mindset
Please stay on topic.

SBP vs. Darkseid has nothing to do with this thread. Of course.

Every DS thread since FC is about the ALE.

EDIT: Final Crisis sucked.

OneDumbG0

^ ranting

Mindset

Originally posted by Mekrob
Of course.

Every DS thread since FC is about the ALE.

EDIT: Final Crisis sucked. thumb up

Juntai

FC most certainly did not suck. It's one of the best events either of the big two has done.

fangirl101

Originally posted by Juntai
FC most certainly did not suck. It's one of the best events either of the big two has done.
I agree. It still has people talking. It's scope was just to large for such a limited number of issues.

Enyalus

Originally posted by Juntai
FC most certainly did not suck. It's one of the best events either of the big two has done.

I, and probably most other people would disagree with you. Some of the tie-ins, like Revelations, Rogues Revenge, and Superman Beyond were great. FC itself? sick

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mokkari with a press of a button, released the ALE over the Internet and time and space cracked, WELL before DS manifested:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life07.jpg

Mandrakk was separate and apart from the Multiverse, he was the first Monitor. He fed off the stories of the Multiverse. Mandrakk only attacked AFTER DS was disposed with. Reread Final Crisis #7. Even when Grant Morrison offers a disjointed narrative, Superman destroys Darkseid with counter-vibrations and THEN Mandrakk appears AFTER Superman loses his voice.
As you said, the ALE makes you become Darkseid. The Miracle Machine fixed the Multiverse. You are speculating that Orion was boom-tubed. Considering that the Fourth World was destroyed and both Orion and Darkseid were survivors and manifested in the lwer dimension, for you to assume Orion boom-tubed in is pure speculation. A different New God manifested, as stated and reinforced by the Guardians' statements about him. He didn't break the Multiverse by manifesting. That contradicts your interpretations that New Gods, on their own, can distort the entire multiverse merely by manifesting. What goes to explain the obvious disparity between the respective effects of Orion and Darkseid? Mastery of the ALE, which makes all existence, you. Orion didn't have the ALE when he manifested. He died in a garbage heap after being shot by a Radion bullet. Darkseid had the ALE when he manifested. All existence began distorting, turning evil and eventually collapsed upon a singularity, just as Darkseid's own form was. What's so hard to understand here?

Again it is the only thing that makes sense that he would have been Boom-tubed, if he was not he would have been bigger then Earth.. Heck the other evil New Gods never manifested either just DS.. Darkseid shot the Radion bullet backwards through time to kill Orion before Darkseid himself died (while still in the Fourth World). He then was dumped on Earth to die. About The Spectre unmaking creation with the ALE, that is untrue, The Spectre himself did it with his own power, the ALE was used to erase the Life Equation from the Multiverse the gift of free will from God.. The Spectre then erased the ALE from creation and gave back Gods gift of free will. Again you are wrong about the MM fixing the Multiverse and repairing creation with the Life Equation, the Spectre did that and the GL Corps/Supermen of M reestablished the Symmetry of the Orrery (Multiverse) as Nix said. We see them pulling Earth back into its symmetry which Darkseid used to drag it down with him collapsing the Multiverse. cool

FC was pretty good, thats if people get it.... smile

fangirl101

Originally posted by Enyalus
I, and probably most other people would disagree with you. Some of the tie-ins, like Revelations, Rogues Revenge, and Superman Beyond were great. FC itself? sick

FC was like a big budget movie with an actual plot. It can't be all action sequences. You gotta connect the dots.

starlock

Originally posted by Mekrob
Of course.

Every DS thread since FC is about the ALE.

EDIT: Final Crisis sucked.

thumb up

..i agree it was horrible sick

Oh...DS for the win

Enyalus

Originally posted by fangirl101
FC was like a big budget movie with an actual plot. It can't be all action sequences. You gotta connect the dots.

Even big budget movies with actual plots can be boring at points, and thus suck completely. See the 2003 Hulk movie for a perfect example.

fangirl101

Originally posted by Enyalus
Even big budget movies with actual plots can be boring at points, and thus suck completely. See the 2003 Hulk movie for a perfect example. That was a plot? You are mistaken.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by kevdude
Again it is the only thing that makes sense that he would have been Boom-tubed, if he was not he would have been bigger then Earth.. Heck the other evil New Gods never manifested either just DS.. Darkseid shot the Radion bullet backwards through time to kill Orion before Darkseid himself died (while still in the Fourth World). He then was dumped on Earth to die.Darkseid manifested and he wasn't bigger than Earth. Your theory is shot. Either way, the boom-tube theory is pure speculation. We never see Orion arriving via boom-tube. It's much more probable that he fell just like Darkseid did when the Fourth World was destroyed.

Your theory that a New God manifesting = multiversal upheaval is controverted by the fact that Orion manifests and no multiversal upheaval is caused. Therefore, there must be a reason why Darkseid's manifesting caused such an upheaval. Obvious answer: ALE which makes all existence you.
Originally posted by kevdude
About The Spectre unmaking creation with the ALE, that is untrue, The Spectre himself did it with his own power, the ALE was used to erase the Life Equation from the Multiverse the gift of free will from God.. The Spectre then erased the ALE from creation and gave back Gods gift of free will.No. I disagree, the panels make this clear: Spectre spoke the ALE specifically. Cain did not use the ALE to enslave Spectre, then subsequently command him to use the Spectreforce to unmake creation. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave Spectre and forced him to speak the ALE. It is the speaking of the ALE that unmade creation. Why would it have such an effect? Because Spectre is like the biggest loudspeaker you could find. Even bigger than the intarnetz.

The very next splash page shows the direct result of Spectre speaking the ALE: more people are infected, lightning crashes from the skies and fires of destruction start blowing up all over the place. Creation and free will are unequivocally two separate things. Cain forced Spectre to unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's same specifically by forcing him to speak the ALE. Spectre may have restored the damage with his own power, but he caused the damage with the ALE. Furthermore, Spectre never erased the ALE from creation. He only reversed the effects he himself had wrought when he spoke the ALE. The events of Final Crisis: Revelations occur somewhere between issues #3 and #6 of Final Crisis itself. The fight was still going on.
Originally posted by kevdude
Again you are wrong about the MM fixing the Multiverse and repairing creation with the Life Equation, the Spectre did that and the GL Corps/Supermen of M reestablished the Symmetry of the Orrery (Multiverse) as Nix said. We see them pulling Earth back into its symmetry which Darkseid used to drag it down with him collapsing the Multiverse.See above. Spectre only reversed the destruction he himself had wrought when speaking the ALE. The fight against Darkseid was still going strong even after Spectre reversed his damage. Renee Montoya had not met with Checkmate yet for the initiation of the Black Gambit protocol. Even moreso, the assault on Bludhaven hadn't even started by that point. That is clear because Supergirl is still in the Fortress of Solitude awaiting Alan Scott's orders to assault Bludhaven.

The Miracle Machine restored the Multiverse. All the deus ex machina-style events that occur after Superman made his wish for a happy ending are a direct result of the Miracle Machine.

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Darkseid manifested and he wasn't bigger than Earth. Your theory is shot. Either way, the boom-tube theory is pure speculation. We never see Orion arriving via boom-tube. It's much more probable that he fell just like Darkseid did when the Fourth World was destroyed.

Your theory that a New God manifesting = multiversal upheaval is controverted by the fact that Orion manifests and no multiversal upheaval is caused. Therefore, there must be a reason why Darkseid's manifesting caused such an upheaval. Obvious answer: ALE which makes all existence you.
No. I disagree, the panels make this clear: Spectre spoke the ALE specifically. Cain did not use the ALE to enslave Spectre, then subsequently command him to use the Spectreforce to unmake creation. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave Spectre and forced him to speak the ALE. It is the speaking of the ALE that unmade creation. Why would it have such an effect? Because Spectre is like the biggest loudspeaker you could find. Even bigger than the intarnetz.

The very next splash page shows the direct result of Spectre speaking the ALE: more people are infected, lightning crashes from the skies and fires of destruction start blowing up all over the place. Creation and free will are unequivocally two separate things. Cain forced Spectre to unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's same specifically by forcing him to speak the ALE. Spectre may have restored the damage with his own power, but he caused the damage with the ALE. Furthermore, Spectre never erased the ALE from creation. He only reversed the effects he himself had wrought when he spoke the ALE. The events of Final Crisis: Revelations occur somewhere between issues #3 and #6 of Final Crisis itself. The fight was still going on.
See above. Spectre only reversed the destruction he himself had wrought when speaking the ALE. The fight against Darkseid was still going strong even after Spectre reversed his damage. Renee Montoya had not met with Checkmate yet for the initiation of the Black Gambit protocol. Even moreso, the assault on Bludhaven hadn't even started by that point. That is clear because Supergirl is still in the Fortress of Solitude awaiting Alan Scott's orders to assault Bludhaven.

The Miracle Machine restored the Multiverse. All the deus ex machina-style events that occur after Superman made his wish for a happy ending are a direct result of the Miracle Machine.

I don't think we are arguing about the Spectre using the ALE and replacing the LE with the ALE replacing Gods name with Darkseids, The Spectre was chosen because he was the only 1 who could have broad casted it to nearly everyone else in creation, his power spreads it out, if he said it normally and nobody could hear him it would have fallen on deaf ears and nothing happen, why Cain said "louder" comes in. The MM bottled the Multiverse up for protection against Mandrakk, fixing the crack Darkseid caused when Nix said "The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseid's Fall is under repair." I agree that the Spectre must have only repaired the damage he caused and not everyone seeing as Darkseid was still there and his influence was still so great, though that is not whats shown in FC Revelations.. The MM restoring the Multiverse is a theory as we know it was for 1 wish, we can clearly see the group I said fix the symmetry, the MM seems to have fixed the crack is what I gather.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by kevdude
I don't think we are arguing about the Spectre using the ALE and replacing the LE with the ALE replacing Gods name with Darkseids, The Spectre was chosen because he was the only 1 who could have broad casted it to nearly everyone else in creation, his power spreads it out, if he said it normally and nobody could hear him it would have fallen on deaf ears and nothing happen, why Cain said "louder" comes in. The MM bottled the Multiverse up for protection against Mandrakk, fixing the crack Darkseid caused when Nix said "The damage caused to the Orrery of Worlds by Darkseid's Fall is under repair." I agree that the Spectre must have only repaired the damage he caused and not everyone seeing as Darkseid was still there and his influence was still so great, though that is not whats shown in FC Revelations.. The MM restoring the Multiverse is a theory as we know it was for 1 wish, we can clearly see the group I said fix the symmetry, the MM seems to have fixed the crack is what I gather. We do disagree on the purpose behind Spectre speaking the ALE; either unmaking creation (the world itself) or enslaving people (taking away God's gift of freedom). Creation and free will are definitely two distinct concepts. I think the ALE affects both, you think it only affects the latter. I point to two things that support my interpretation: (i) Cain orders Spectre specifically to "Unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name..." (ii) This is followed by people being enslaved, but also lightning crashing around, flames blowing up around Earth-0, etc.

As for the Miracle Machine, I do not believe it ever bottled the universe, thus protecting it from Mandrakk. When Superman was building the Miracle Machine, Superman wasn't even aware that Mandrakk was coming back. He was just trying to fix the damage caused by Darkseid. How could he plan to use it to protect it from Mandrakk? There are too many things that miraculously occur after Superman makes his wish: 1) Nix Uotan is summoned; 2) the New Gods reincarnate; 3) the multiverse is repaired; 4) Batman survives; and 5) Nix manifests in human form. A happy ending to undo all that Darkseid wrought when he mastered the ALE.

Now I know you mentioned that the Miracle Machine also fixed the crack. If it did, don't you think that occurrence only supports my interpretation that the LE has a much wider scope than simply restoring free will? And isn't it only logical that the ALE mirrors it's polar opposite and has a much wider scope than simply stripping free will?

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We do disagree on the purpose behind Spectre speaking the ALE; either unmaking creation (the world itself) or enslaving people (taking away God's gift of freedom). Creation and free will are definitely two distinct concepts. I think the ALE affects both, you think it only affects the latter. I point to two things that support my interpretation: (i) Cain orders Spectre specifically to "Unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name..." (ii) This is followed by people being enslaved, but also lightning crashing around, flames blowing up around Earth-0, etc.

As for the Miracle Machine, I do not believe it ever bottled the universe, thus protecting it from Mandrakk. When Superman was building the Miracle Machine, Superman wasn't even aware that Mandrakk was coming back. He was just trying to fix the damage caused by Darkseid. How could he plan to use it to protect it from Mandrakk? There are too many things that miraculously occur after Superman makes his wish: 1) Nix Uotan is summoned; 2) the New Gods reincarnate; 3) the multiverse is repaired; 4) Batman survives; and 5) Nix manifests in human form. A happy ending to undo all that Darkseid wrought when he mastered the ALE.

Now I know you mentioned that the Miracle Machine also fixed the crack. If it did, don't you think that occurrence only supports my interpretation that the LE has a much wider scope than simply restoring free will? And isn't it only logical that the ALE mirrors it's polar opposite and has a much wider scope than simply stripping free will?

When they talk about unmaking creation they are not talking about the world itself, creation is human beings and in human beings is the Life Equation, the world was never unmade and remade. Darkseid took away the LE a gift that The Source/God gave to creation, the ALE takes it away and proves there is no such thing as free will and we all do as The Source wants.

The Miracle Machine is a weapon, while John is talking with the others they say "Superman found a way to shrink and bottle the whole universe for protection". Protection from any other threats, I was using Mandrakk as a example, Darkseid even says its a poorly put together Mother box. The MM calculates the LE which was used to repair the crack that which Darkseid caused proving the ALE was correct as he was in a lower plan of existence.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

No. I disagree, the panels make this clear: Spectre spoke the ALE specifically. Cain did not use the ALE to enslave Spectre, then subsequently command him to use the Spectreforce to unmake creation. Cain used the Spear of Destiny to enslave Spectre and forced him to speak the ALE.

The hostless spectre is an engine as you said, he's a major loudspeaker, the equation itself is inert without the projection of power from the spectre(in that instance), spreading the ALE across Earth to enslave more for DS. That incident supports what I've shown here.

The ALE is the antithesis of God's theory on life, its not a power up. The spectre incident proves this, it doesn't disprove it.

Spectre was spreading anti-life i.e. unmaking God's creation by erasing his divine spark (free will).

http://f.imagehost.org/t/0203/Untitled-27.jpg

"And know that the blood of the spear will unmake the Old God and make slaves of his children mortal and spectre alike."

Here we see Lilith's prediction (from the crime bible) about Darkseid, Cain and the spear of destiny. Creation was sentient life, Cain via the Spectre was remaking sentient life (creation) for a new god (DS).

Remember also to seperate this from the main FC as what was happening with the ALE victims and the singularity are seperate.

Allankles

Originally posted by kevdude
When they talk about unmaking creation they are not talking about the world itself, creation is human beings and in human beings is the Life Equation, the world was never unmade and remade. Darkseid took away the LE a gift that The Source/God gave to creation, the ALE takes it away and proves there is no such thing as free will and we all do as The Source wants.

The Miracle Machine is a weapon, while John is talking with the others they say "Superman found a way to shrink and bottle the whole universe for protection". Protection from any other threats, I was using Mandrakk as a example, Darkseid even says its a poorly put together Mother box. The MM calculates the LE which was used to repair the crack that which Darkseid caused proving the ALE was correct as he was in a lower plan of existence.

Yes. Odg is thinking in linear terms. The universe was not unmade in any physical fashion. Creation was always about life, the only life with the divine spark (free will) of the Old God, is sentient life.

Unmaking creation involved removing the Old Gods divine spark and replacing it with a New God's anti-life.

By attacking the Spectre, Cain was spiting the Old God. And he makes this clear in Revelations # 4.

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by kevdude
When they talk about unmaking creation they are not talking about the world itself, creation is human beings and in human beings is the Life Equation, the world was never unmade and remade. Darkseid took away the LE a gift that The Source/God gave to creation, the ALE takes it away and proves there is no such thing as free will and we all do as The Source wants.No. The very first page of Final Crisis: Revelations #5 makes it clear that creation is separate from human beings:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life14.jpg

Here is where lightning crashes down and destructive flames spout out all over the world in the instant the ALE is spoken:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life15.jpg

How can you possibly sit there and suggest that when Cain commands Spectre to "Unmake creation and rebuild the world in Darkseid's name," he is only asking him to enslave people? I already proved creation is different from god's gift of free will:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life12.jpg

Are you guys kidding me? What the f**k?

Originally posted by kevdude
The Miracle Machine is a weapon, while John is talking with the others they say "Superman found a way to shrink and bottle the whole universe for protection". Protection from any other threats, I was using Mandrakk as a example, Darkseid even says its a poorly put together Mother box. The MM calculates the LE which was used to repair the crack that which Darkseid caused proving the ALE was correct as he was in a lower plan of existence. Even if I completely agree with your jaundiced interpretation, if the LE can fix the crack that Darkseid caused, that just goes to prove that the ALE, its polar opposite, caused the crack in the first place. How is this not so blatantly obvious to you? How is it not so god damned obvious when it even lays it out ON-PANEL:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life10.jpg

Originally posted by Allankles
The hostless spectre is an engine as you said, he's a major loudspeaker, the equation itself is inert without the projection of power from the spectre(in that instance), spreading the ALE across Earth to enslave more for DS. That incident supports what I've shown here.

The ALE is the antithesis of God's theory on life, its not a power up. The spectre incident proves this, it doesn't disprove it.

Spectre was spreading anti-life i.e. unmaking God's creation by erasing his divine spark (free will).God's creation is DIFFERENT from free will. I already showed you the scan. Stop acting like it doesn't exist. God created the world and then he bestowed freedom of choice and life. Cain told Spectre to "Unmake creation, rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." For god's sake, he states it plain as day! Not only that, the entire world begins distorting the very next page! What the heck is going on here that you guys could be so impossibly recalcitrant? IT'S ALL ON-PANEL. This is downright trolling that you guys could ignore these scans!

kevdude

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes. Odg is thinking in linear terms. The universe was not unmade in any physical fashion. Creation was always about life, the only life with the divine spark (free will) of the Old God, is sentient life.

Unmaking creation involved removing the Old Gods divine spark and replacing it with a New God's anti-life.

By attacking the Spectre, Cain was spiting the Old God. And he makes this clear in Revelations # 4.

The Universe and Creation are separate things, the scan he shows is talking about Earth being made nothing else. Next page is very clear what Creation is and what the World is, Cris saying "and there is NO Light for God's Creation anymore, no light and no Hope". Earth by itself is not alive like human (creation) and is not sentient to need hope which was removed from Creation(humans) when Darkseid removed the Life Equation (free will). When Crispis takes the Spear he says hes found his place in creation, your interpretation sounds like hes an elemental which he is not. Cris while binding Cain down thinks "in the Entirety of Creation (humans), in the multitude of universes (something else) we are but small things".

Creation and Free will are 2 separate things correct. Cain who serves Darkseid tells the ALE to the Spectre and then who sends it world wide demanding the humans to destroy everything valuable to themselves and give everything to Darkseid and rebuild earth worshipping Darkseid. Why else would they begin posted signs up "die for Darkseid'' "worship DS"?? The first creation was The Word (a being not a planet) when The Voice first opened his mouth, he then created the Universe.

The ALE did cause it in a way but it was Darkseid who smashed through, once it was broad casted worldwide it seems he became powerful enough (through worshippers) to break it... It is not my fault One does not put the pieces together.. smile

OneDumbG0

Originally posted by kevdude
Cris while binding Cain down thinks "in the Entirety of Creation (humans), in the multitude of universes (something else) we are but small things".This sentence proves you utterly wrong.

How can you possibly equate the Entirety of Creation to humanity... ?!

We. Are. But. Small. Things.

Compared to what?

Compared to the Entirety of Creation and the multitude of universes. When you compare two things such that one is far lesser than the other, they can't be the same thing. That's not how sentence striucture works. That's not how English works. That's not how you read. What jibberish is this? Why do I have to dumb this down for you?

Creation means creation!!!! It's not some purple prose for humanity or free will! They just laid it out for you in like every single sentence and distinguish them! For anyone to suggest that the Entirety of Creation = Humanity is humanistic idiocy in itself. When Cain commands Spectre, IN ADDITION to telling him to unmake creation, he tells him to rebuild the world in Darkseid's name! Rebuild. The. World.

What? World = humanity now too? Look at the flippin scans! The world starts going all to hell when Spectre speaks the ALE. Looking at the literal, plain meaning of the words presented together with the artwork should be very clear: the ALE does more than enslave free will, it affects existence such that existence becomes you.

The use of the word creation, throughout Final Crisis: Revelations IS NOT equatable to humankind! It's not equatable to free will! It means creation!

KuRuPT Thanosi

OneDumb... these guys won't give up man so what can you do. They won't hear anything that against DS being uber multiversal and causing everything that happened in FC with his own powerset. It goes against what's on panel but they are so desperate to have DS be uber duper powerful even ignoring on panel evidence

skyfather

ODG is pwning all the Darksied fans here thumb up

Juntai

More linguistically than in actual semantics, which is typical when OneDumbG0 debates. I don't believe either side has it entirely correct currently, but OneDumbG0 always presents his points precise and clear. I just wish he were a bit more of a gentleman when doing it sometimes, like that last post..but I'd be a hypocrit if I didn't acknowledge that I also fall victim to posting like that sometimes.

OneDumbG0

^ I'll try and be more nice in future posts...

... wuss. shifty

...

... j/k

dur

fangirl101

Originally posted by skyfather
ODG is pwning all the Darksied fans here thumb up

actually he isn't. I could clearly rebuff his wall of text. But who cares. The ALE isn't the infinity guantlet. It cannot be lost. So for better or worse, it is a part of DS powerset. So in the end, it doesn't matter. It's a power up like Death gave thanos one. So everything that was accomplished by DS was his power since the ALE is his power. Period.

Philosoph�a

Originally posted by fangirl101
actually he isn't.

Why would you respond to that troll ?

kevdude

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This sentence proves you utterly wrong.

How can you possibly equate the Entirety of Creation to humanity... ?!

We. Are. But. Small. Things.

Compared to what?

Compared to the Entirety of Creation and the multitude of universes. When you compare two things such that one is far lesser than the other, they can't be the same thing. That's not how sentence striucture works. That's not how English works. That's not how you read. What jibberish is this? Why do I have to dumb this down for you?

Creation means creation!!!! It's not some purple prose for humanity or free will! They just laid it out for you in like every single sentence and distinguish them! For anyone to suggest that the Entirety of Creation = Humanity is humanistic idiocy in itself. When Cain commands Spectre, IN ADDITION to telling him to unmake creation, he tells him to rebuild the world in Darkseid's name! Rebuild. The. World.

What? World = humanity now too? Look at the flippin scans! The world starts going all to hell when Spectre speaks the ALE. Looking at the literal, plain meaning of the words presented together with the artwork should be very clear: the ALE does more than enslave free will, it affects existence such that existence becomes you.

The use of the word creation, throughout Final Crisis: Revelations IS NOT equatable to humankind! It's not equatable to free will! It means creation!

laughing out loud

What a waste of time..

Allankles

Originally posted by kevdude
laughing out loud

What a waste of time..

stick out tongue

Indeed.

He forgot that Earth 0/New Earth is the foundation stone of creation and that humanity possess the anti-life equation in the deepest recesses of their minds.

Allankles

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

God's creation is DIFFERENT from free will. I already showed you the scan. Stop acting like it doesn't exist. God created the world and then he bestowed freedom of choice and life. Cain told Spectre to "Unmake creation, rebuild the world in Darkseid's name." For god's sake, he states it plain as day! Not only that, the entire world begins distorting the very next page! What the heck is going on here that you guys could be so impossibly recalcitrant? IT'S ALL ON-PANEL. This is downright trolling that you guys could ignore these scans!

Creation is not some physical block of "earth". Your scans show humanity destroying their world, it doesn't show any "physical" distortion on account of the anti-life.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/th_Anti-Life15.jpg

Above: Is the scan you posted. Every word, every judgement of the ALE is designed to break/disprove free will , and everything the ALE affects on panel is free will. There's no evidence of a physical distortion on account of the ALE - even using your so called evidence.

Again tell us where the universe is distorted or shown to be distorted in all your scans via the ALE?

And I already explained what the concept of free will entails, the concept of free will contains the divine spark of the Old God, his imprint on life (creation), the removal of this concept via anti-life redefines creation in Darkseid's image.

New Earth (after all) is the foundation stone of creation.