Kain Vs Link

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Burning thought
Had to be made and ime bored. Its obvious whos side I will be debating from, this is Link with all of his powers, as it is with Kain, only ofcourse not the complete tri-force. I may change the thread to what each are allowed access to since I know little to nothing about Link.

ArtificialGlory
As much as I would like to see the gayboy being viciously eviscerated by Kain, I don't think that's gonna happen.

XanatosForever
Link's Feats

strength:

As to strength, Let me math.. He lifted a stone pillar resmebling black granite closest (a VERY heavy stone known for being retardedly heavy.)

granit article v
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rmr/definition.html

an old reference says an "average" granite has a density of about 166.5 lb. per cubic foot, or about 2.6 times what the same volume of water would weigh. If its what commercial stone dealers call a "black granite" the density would likely be much higher."

http://i44.tinypic.com/15pg4g3.jpg

K, working with only what we can SEE in this image, let's assume conservatively that Link is slightly above average height, around 6'2" or more seems reasonable, so we'll go with six. this rock is aprox 12208.32 cubic feet in volume. (JUST the visible part in the pic, not including the top half.) Now, if that means the average weight of white granite is 166.5 lbs per cubic foot... *math* 2032685.28 Lbs. That's the weight of JUST the visible portion of the pillar if we assume Link is 6' and the stone is light granite as opposed to black granite.

If a ton is 2000 lbs thats 1016.3 tons. and he THROWS IT.

Now I have to find something on black granite because that's the stone the pillars in OoT closest resemble.
BLACK GRANITE!


"Cambrian Black granite

Absorption by weight: 0.101%

Density: 179 pounds/cubic foot

(2,874 kg/cu.m)


Compressive strength: 22,122 psi (153 Mpa)


Modulus of rupture: 1,868 psi (12.92 Mpa)"

http://www.stoneworld.com/Articles/...000f932a8c0____ <--article.

Math time. 12208.32 (volume in cubic feet) x 179 (lbs per cubic foot) = 2185289.28 lbs. Just the visible portion. Link. Is. Amazing.. I didn't expect it to be THAT heavy.. wtf.. 1096.64 tons. .


Link like many others who are brought up has his own multiple forms to be able to shape shift and his strength as Goron Link is able to take down a Mechanical-Organic giant, super bull with his body alone. Not to mention the giant slabs he is able to punch away with ease while in the dungeon.
-n_xp9eM7HU


endurance:

Link surviving an explosion he took a point blank radius while still inside the Moon, that eventually disintegrated it (this scene is done in slow motion, rainbow is there for happy ending effects) Now 'Dawn of A New Day' is easily translated into only a few minutes time since with the Moon destroyed the Day would be immediate.

Link fell from that height of the Moon after surviving the explosion and the only counter argument to that has been there is no crater where he landed. Well last I checked if a humanoid is dropped from any height, extreme or not, there is no crater of impact because they are not heavy in weight. The explosion radius is clearly contained with in the Moon and so inertia kicks in and is canceled. So force of impact is all with in that moment of explosion, then Link would simply drop from the point there after.
example: suicide victims of 9/11 did not create craters and fell from greater heights.
DeVbMiqVuV0

another one is that as young Link, by only using the Hylian Shield on his back while crouching alone can withstand the pressure and weight of the King Dodongo. That is only his young body with out fully being physically developed it both situations.
dFP7Bded-IQ

Speed;Agility;Reflex:

Also noted in this fight that Majora uses whip based weapons that are able to travel faster then the speed of sound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_barrier That means those attacks from Majora break the sound barrier, which means they are faster then the speed of sound, and Link can react and dodge them accordingly. Link is faster then the speed of what it takes to break the sound barrier. And thus upon breaking it, and Link showing he can dodge them with ease proves his speed, agility and reflex all in one go. Young Link, Adult Link or any of his forms would all be capable of this respectively.

Link's Items & Weapons
Weapons

I T E M S

Masks aka Other Forms

LINK's abilities:
Link is the hero of time with many abilities.

Link is an exceptional swordsman. His skill with various weapons and items allows him to easily adapt and master each new tool he acquires and employ them in battles. Link shows himself to be an excellent marksman. Including but not restricted to with a Bow and Arrow, Boomerang, Slingshot, HookShot, ClawShot etc. etc.

Link is also very agile, proven as he is able to perform back-flips and somersaults with ease to dodge his enemies' attacks at the very start of his adventures.

Additionally, Link has proven to be very strong physically, as he is usually able to move heavy objects and overpower larger enemies rather easily. Along the fact his power to ride a giant Boar, and his horseback riding skills are impeccable.

In the "Oracle of Seasons", Link is shown to have at least some skills in hand-to-hand combat with the boxing mini-game and in Twilight Princess, he is taught the art of sumo wrestling by the mayor of Ordon Village; proving Link isn't completely defenseless without a weapon.

Link even uses magic in the form of spells. On several occasions he has even been able to shape shift into another form including a fairy, bunny, wolf, Deku, Goron, Zora, a Giant, and a Deity.

Finally, he is endowed with the powers of the Triforce of Courage.

The Legend of Zelda
-Sword Beams: able to fire energy blasts from Sword
-Spin Attack: Charged or otherwise, with or with out magical energy released from it, this attack is a circular based one with critical consequence.
(side note: these attacks are also translated and relate to the other titles in which they appear. Same goes for Sword Plant, Rocket Stab, Lunge and so on)

Legend of Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link
-Shield: (buff) reduces all damage taken by half
-Jump: (buff) Link's jumping abilities are greatly increased
-Life: (buff) Regenerates Health
-Fairy: (buff) Transforms Link into a Fairy
-Fire: (ranged) A ranged fire attack from the Sword
-Reflect: (buff) Nullifies and reflects all attacks
-Spell: (aoe) Transforms all Enemies into a Bot
-Thunder: (aoe) destroys all Enemies.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Bombos: (aoe) creates a giant explosion
Ether: (aoe) immobilize all enemies
Quake: (aoe) creates an earthquake

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
Excluded since it's a dream, other wise this Link would be unbeatable.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Din's Fire: (aoe) Creates a dome of intense Fire to disintegrate
Farore's Wind: (buff) Create a Warp Point to teleport at any time
Nayru's Love (buff) Create a protective barrier to reduce damage

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
Deku Link: can hover/fly and shoot poison bubbles
Goron Link: unbridled strength & can spin around at extreme velocity
Zora Link: Energy Shield, ranged fins, & unlimited breath under water
Giant Link: need I say more?
Fierce Deity Link: Deity means a god, so yeah =3

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
The Hidden Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLg5beoBbAU
-Ending Blow
-Shield Attack
-Back Slice
-Helm Splitter
-Mortal Draw
-Jump Strike
-Great Spin

Super Smahs Bros. Series
Final Smash:
65pkTJHljSI
1Gn1d_qn0vw

The move hits multiple enemies.

SSE:
4_m5AsTPaPw

(side note: being able to side step and dodge Fox's laser is proof he could dodge a bullet. Lets also state that by official translation of Nintendo that Farore's wind can be used as a quick teleportation)

SoulCalibur 2
IaDSWnA-27Q

Illusion Stab Combo, also in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

for the sake of length I have not gone to deeply into each specific Link by assuming all the basics are kept through out each one.

credits: ScreamPaste for Strength feat.
references: http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Zeldapedia

Burning thought
I think Kains most useful abilities would be in the form of TK, repel and his unfair powers involving soul, time, mind and blood.

XanatosForever
Well Link already has Kain at a disadvantage, then. Link (assuming OoT and MM, which seem to be the default) wields the Master Sword, which buffs his already formidable attack power against Kain, and as has been stated in other threads, Farore's Wind can be used as a counter for the TK.

I don't know enough about Link, and I'm only going off of the feat list, and what statements the others have made that have yet to be debunked.

So while I'm posting stuff for Link, I'm not ready to say that he takes this.

Burning thought
Thats only to help himself escape, one TK push and Kain could be holding the master sword, also why would he have an advantage over Kain from the start just because he is wielding the Master sword?

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats only to help himself escape, one TK push and Kain could be holding the master sword, also why would he have an advantage over Kain from the start just because he is wielding the Master sword?

I believe Link - being a bullshit character that he is - is protected from all sorts of things like that. Even Ganon, who has some insane TK(among many other things), has to fight Link the old fashioned way.

Burning thought
Although that could just as well be PIS, if Ganon does indeed have TK that can grab items and objects then it could simply be through gameplay and plot stupidity that he doesnt just disarm Link and pummel him into the ground, ofcourse if theres an actual canon explanation for Link not being able to have his items taken then I would concede that but so far it seems to me a lot of Links power comes from his items and if Kain just steals them off of him as he tries to use them with a gesture hes going to be at a disadvantage.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Burning thought
Although that could just as well be PIS, if Ganon does indeed have TK that can grab items and objects then it could simply be through gameplay and plot stupidity that he doesnt just disarm Link and pummel him into the ground, ofcourse if theres an actual canon explanation for Link not being able to have his items taken then I would concede that but so far it seems to me a lot of Links power comes from his items and if Kain just steals them off of him as he tries to use them with a gesture hes going to be at a disadvantage.

Well, all I know about Link is from what I have read in other VS threads in this forum. Most of the stuff was posted by ScreamPaste; perhaps he could come here and shed some more light on this.

Gumachi
Kain fvcks up Gayboy.

Gumachi
Has nonething to do with this. But if Kain doesn't feed on souls won't he die?

Burning thought
First Kain does not feed on souls, he feeds no blood and he has proven not to require blood, after his heart is ripped out remember? infact he doesnt require any physical sustinance. Blood simply makes him more powerful by giving him the powers of those he drinks from.

ThunderGodEneru
Every fight with Ganon is PIS. Ganon is stronger, faster, and much more powerful than Link.

The Master Sword has never shown to repel certain powers except projectiles, so please stop saying it has.

Phanteros
you probbally shouldn't of have done that BT.

ScreamPaste
As far as I can tell the master sword's plot shielding qualities are exactly what stops Ganon from TKing Link, or any of the other brutal things Ganon is canonicly capable of in each game. There literally is no other explanation as until Link has the sword, even with his piece of the triforce, he DOES get TK'd and instantly lose to Ganon.

This thread should be interesting, BT is one of the more fun people to debate with, imo.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by XanatosForever
Link's Feats

strength:

As to strength, Let me math.. He lifted a stone pillar resmebling black granite closest (a VERY heavy stone known for being retardedly heavy.)

granit article v
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rmr/definition.html

an old reference says an "average" granite has a density of about 166.5 lb. per cubic foot, or about 2.6 times what the same volume of water would weigh. If its what commercial stone dealers call a "black granite" the density would likely be much higher."

http://i44.tinypic.com/15pg4g3.jpg

K, working with only what we can SEE in this image, let's assume conservatively that Link is slightly above average height, around 6'2" or more seems reasonable, so we'll go with six. this rock is aprox 12208.32 cubic feet in volume. (JUST the visible part in the pic, not including the top half.) Now, if that means the average weight of white granite is 166.5 lbs per cubic foot... *math* 2032685.28 Lbs. That's the weight of JUST the visible portion of the pillar if we assume Link is 6' and the stone is light granite as opposed to black granite.

If a ton is 2000 lbs thats 1016.3 tons. and he THROWS IT.

Now I have to find something on black granite because that's the stone the pillars in OoT closest resemble.
BLACK GRANITE!


"Cambrian Black granite

Absorption by weight: 0.101%

Density: 179 pounds/cubic foot

(2,874 kg/cu.m)


Compressive strength: 22,122 psi (153 Mpa)


Modulus of rupture: 1,868 psi (12.92 Mpa)"

http://www.stoneworld.com/Articles/...000f932a8c0____ <--article.

Math time. 12208.32 (volume in cubic feet) x 179 (lbs per cubic foot) = 2185289.28 lbs. Just the visible portion. Link. Is. Amazing.. I didn't expect it to be THAT heavy.. wtf.. 1096.64 tons. .


Link like many others who are brought up has his own multiple forms to be able to shape shift and his strength as Goron Link is able to take down a Mechanical-Organic giant, super bull with his body alone. Not to mention the giant slabs he is able to punch away with ease while in the dungeon.
-n_xp9eM7HU


endurance:

Link surviving an explosion he took a point blank radius while still inside the Moon, that eventually disintegrated it (this scene is done in slow motion, rainbow is there for happy ending effects) Now 'Dawn of A New Day' is easily translated into only a few minutes time since with the Moon destroyed the Day would be immediate.

Link fell from that height of the Moon after surviving the explosion and the only counter argument to that has been there is no crater where he landed. Well last I checked if a humanoid is dropped from any height, extreme or not, there is no crater of impact because they are not heavy in weight. The explosion radius is clearly contained with in the Moon and so inertia kicks in and is canceled. So force of impact is all with in that moment of explosion, then Link would simply drop from the point there after.
example: suicide victims of 9/11 did not create craters and fell from greater heights.
DeVbMiqVuV0

another one is that as young Link, by only using the Hylian Shield on his back while crouching alone can withstand the pressure and weight of the King Dodongo. That is only his young body with out fully being physically developed it both situations.
dFP7Bded-IQ

Speed;Agility;Reflex:

Also noted in this fight that Majora uses whip based weapons that are able to travel faster then the speed of sound. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_barrier That means those attacks from Majora break the sound barrier, which means they are faster then the speed of sound, and Link can react and dodge them accordingly. Link is faster then the speed of what it takes to break the sound barrier. And thus upon breaking it, and Link showing he can dodge them with ease proves his speed, agility and reflex all in one go. Young Link, Adult Link or any of his forms would all be capable of this respectively.

Link's Items & Weapons
Weapons

I T E M S

Masks aka Other Forms

LINK's abilities:
Link is the hero of time with many abilities.

Link is an exceptional swordsman. His skill with various weapons and items allows him to easily adapt and master each new tool he acquires and employ them in battles. Link shows himself to be an excellent marksman. Including but not restricted to with a Bow and Arrow, Boomerang, Slingshot, HookShot, ClawShot etc. etc.

Link is also very agile, proven as he is able to perform back-flips and somersaults with ease to dodge his enemies' attacks at the very start of his adventures.

Additionally, Link has proven to be very strong physically, as he is usually able to move heavy objects and overpower larger enemies rather easily. Along the fact his power to ride a giant Boar, and his horseback riding skills are impeccable.

In the "Oracle of Seasons", Link is shown to have at least some skills in hand-to-hand combat with the boxing mini-game and in Twilight Princess, he is taught the art of sumo wrestling by the mayor of Ordon Village; proving Link isn't completely defenseless without a weapon.

Link even uses magic in the form of spells. On several occasions he has even been able to shape shift into another form including a fairy, bunny, wolf, Deku, Goron, Zora, a Giant, and a Deity.

Finally, he is endowed with the powers of the Triforce of Courage.

The Legend of Zelda
-Sword Beams: able to fire energy blasts from Sword
-Spin Attack: Charged or otherwise, with or with out magical energy released from it, this attack is a circular based one with critical consequence.
(side note: these attacks are also translated and relate to the other titles in which they appear. Same goes for Sword Plant, Rocket Stab, Lunge and so on)

Legend of Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link
-Shield: (buff) reduces all damage taken by half
-Jump: (buff) Link's jumping abilities are greatly increased
-Life: (buff) Regenerates Health
-Fairy: (buff) Transforms Link into a Fairy
-Fire: (ranged) A ranged fire attack from the Sword
-Reflect: (buff) Nullifies and reflects all attacks
-Spell: (aoe) Transforms all Enemies into a Bot
-Thunder: (aoe) destroys all Enemies.

The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past
Bombos: (aoe) creates a giant explosion
Ether: (aoe) immobilize all enemies
Quake: (aoe) creates an earthquake

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
Excluded since it's a dream, other wise this Link would be unbeatable.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Din's Fire: (aoe) Creates a dome of intense Fire to disintegrate
Farore's Wind: (buff) Create a Warp Point to teleport at any time
Nayru's Love (buff) Create a protective barrier to reduce damage

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
Deku Link: can hover/fly and shoot poison bubbles
Goron Link: unbridled strength & can spin around at extreme velocity
Zora Link: Energy Shield, ranged fins, & unlimited breath under water
Giant Link: need I say more?
Fierce Deity Link: Deity means a god, so yeah =3

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
The Hidden Skills: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLg5beoBbAU
-Ending Blow
-Shield Attack
-Back Slice
-Helm Splitter
-Mortal Draw
-Jump Strike
-Great Spin

Super Smahs Bros. Series
Final Smash:
65pkTJHljSI
1Gn1d_qn0vw

The move hits multiple enemies.

SSE:
4_m5AsTPaPw

(side note: being able to side step and dodge Fox's laser is proof he could dodge a bullet. Lets also state that by official translation of Nintendo that Farore's wind can be used as a quick teleportation)

SoulCalibur 2
IaDSWnA-27Q

Illusion Stab Combo, also in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

for the sake of length I have not gone to deeply into each specific Link by assuming all the basics are kept through out each one.

credits: ScreamPaste for Strength feat.
references: http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Zeldapedia

He lifted tohat rock with gauntlets, not pure strength and anything he did in Brawl doesn't count, Besides Great Aether is way better than that.

ScreamPaste
The OP states we get everything Link has, including the gauntlets needed to beat OoT, except the complete triforce.

Edit: I agree smash bros/SC aren't canon, I think Voyeur originally put those there because in another thread a few.. people were totally ignoring whatever evidence we posted anyway so he just got lulzy, still I love the cut scenes, and Nintendo wouldn't make things too rediculous in their own game. =P

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
As far as I can tell the master sword's plot shielding qualities are exactly what stops Ganon from TKing Link, or any of the other brutal things Ganon is canonicly capable of in each game. There literally is no other explanation as until Link has the sword, even with his piece of the triforce, he DOES get TK'd and instantly lose to Ganon.

This thread should be interesting, BT is one of the more fun people to debate with, imo.

Does anything actually state the Mastersword actually shields from TK? or is it assumed?

If it is canonically stated please show me, if it is not, then ofcourse Kain could win this fairly easily using TK to pull apart links equipment from afar.

ScreamPaste
Very few things are ever flat out stated in Zelda games because Nintendo loves to keep us in the dark, and stating something for sure makes retconning it later more difficult, and we all know how they love to get creative, however. There are several instances where the sword's presence or lack thereof, coincide with bad things happening to Link, or not happening to Link, as well as a few things stated about the sword , support this. So, really.. it's one of the more dependable things in Zelda.

Firstly in it's first appearance in aLttP it displayed the ability to 'repel evil' and reflect spells and attacks, as well as cut through magical barriers and the like. In OoT as a child Link is allowed to wander around Hyrule by Ganondorf until he opens the door of time so Ganondorf can get the triforce, after this, Link has the master sword and some wierd things happen. Firstly, at the end of the Forest temple Ganon banishes a "useless creation" to the gap between dimensions, secondly, when Sheik reveals herself as Zelda and Ganon has both the remaining pieces in one place, he simple bubbles Zelda and captures her instantly. Link and Zelda both have pieces of the triforce, if he can bubble one, why can't he bubble the other and instnatly claim the entire thing? Link has the master sword at this point, other than that there's no extra protection. In TP it's actively shown breaking a curse, and it's stated clearly that such things cannot touch Link so long as he holds the sword. In this very game, without the sword, but with his piece of thr triforce Link is defeated in an instant by Zant using only a fraction of Ganon's power to TK Link, then transform him into a wolf, once Link gets the sword, his curse is broken and he is totally immune to such silliness and even Ganondorf himself is forced to deal with Link the old fashioned way.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The OP states we get everything Link has, including the gauntlets needed to beat OoT, except the complete triforce.

Edit: I agree smash bros/SC aren't canon, I think Voyeur originally put those there because in another thread a few.. people were totally ignoring whatever evidence we posted anyway so he just got lulzy, still I love the cut scenes, and Nintendo wouldn't make things too rediculous in their own game. =P

Yes but everytime someone brings it up as a strength feat they fail to mention the fact that it wasn't pure strength. Him lifting that rock is an assisted strength feat.

ScreamPaste
When I posted it in the Link respect thread I noted clearly he uses the gauntlets.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Very few things are ever flat out stated in Zelda games because Nintendo loves to keep us in the dark, and stating something for sure makes retconning it later more difficult, and we all know how they love to get creative, however. There are several instances where the sword's presence or lack thereof, coincide with bad things happening to Link, or not happening to Link, as well as a few things stated about the sword , support this. So, really.. it's one of the more dependable things in Zelda.

Firstly in it's first appearance in aLttP it displayed the ability to 'repel evil' and reflect spells and attacks, as well as cut through magical barriers and the like. In OoT as a child Link is allowed to wander around Hyrule by Ganondorf until he opens the door of time so Ganondorf can get the triforce, after this, Link has the master sword and some wierd things happen. Firstly, at the end of the Forest temple Ganon banishes a "useless creation" to the gap between dimensions, secondly, when Sheik reveals herself as Zelda and Ganon has both the remaining pieces in one place, he simple bubbles Zelda and captures her instantly. Link and Zelda both have pieces of the triforce, if he can bubble one, why can't he bubble the other and instnatly claim the entire thing? Link has the master sword at this point, other than that there's no extra protection. In TP it's actively shown breaking a curse, and it's stated clearly that such things cannot touch Link so long as he holds the sword. In this very game, without the sword, but with his piece of thr triforce Link is defeated in an instant by Zant using only a fraction of Ganon's power to TK Link, then transform him into a wolf, once Link gets the sword, his curse is broken and he is totally immune to such silliness and even Ganondorf himself is forced to deal with Link the old fashioned way.

So it is indeed an assumption? we cannot assume it does these things, I agree its a very intrieging coincidence but if its not stated to actually repel powers such as TK then its not exactley fair to simply take this and use it against anything and everything that could harm him, theres many many instances in gaming and other fiction where villains or sometimes even heroes do stupid things or do not do something for the sake of the plot. So from what your saying, there is no actual canon statement that the sword makes Link immune to TK? also lets tackle an assumption with an assumption, I dont have to because without the actual official statement of it protecting him your argument cannot go much further in this debate but for the sake of argument and because ime dreadfully bored perhaps it will only protect him from such evil things, such as curses and the like, TK is not actually evil, not to mention in the Legend of Zelda series, Ganon and other characters are specifically evil, evil is an outlined status of a being in the Legend of Zelda series. On the other hand, in Legacy of Kain evil is simply a point of view, there is no "king" of evil and thus its more than likely Kain who is not really considered evil by his own fiction is not protected against, and neither would his powers.

Perhaps for the sake of some kind of battle, ill take away Kains ability to TK since with it, its likely he can simply disarm Link and as crude as it sounds, literally undress him of most of his major items that could help him in the battle. If this happens, what would your argument for Link be? if Kain cannot use TK? lets say they start at a fair distance from eachother, say....40-50 meters (may change it), what would Link progress with from the beginning to defeat Kain?

XanatosForever
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
In TP it's actively shown breaking a curse, and it's stated clearly that such things cannot touch Link so long as he holds the sword.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
In TP it's actively shown breaking a curse

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
and it's stated clearly that such things cannot touch Link so long as he holds the sword.

erm Isn't that what you're looking for, BT? A clear statement of its abilities to establish canon? If I'm wrong, please show me how.

Burning thought
Tk is not a curse

ScreamPaste
Haha, you sir are fair and reasonable. I wouldn't call it an assumption, though, considering that in TP it dances aroudn sayign it directly but says things kind of like it, but yeah, the evil thing seems pretty applicable and whether or not it'd work on Kain is subject to much speculation which is hard to prove for either side and... Well let's just move on, lol.

For the "he TK's Link and undresses him" lol selective quote, situation I'd ask to see the limits on what Kain can TK before I made any argument.

Phanteros
Originally posted by Burning thought
Tk is not a curse BT, it protects him from all non physical threats. Kain can still win this in a melee fight though

ScreamPaste
Regardless, it's nice to not have to go through the semantics of every fight, Phanteros =P

ArtificialGlory
I believe Kain can levitate and throw people around. Not sure if it would be enough to pull a sword out of a grip of a person who can lift thousands of tons, though.

Phanteros
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I believe Kain can levitate and throw people around. Not sure if it would be enough to pull a sword out of a grip of a person who can lift thousands of tons, though. link can't lift that many that means kratos can lift a 2000 tons. link needs those gaunlets for strength

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Phanteros
link can't lift that many that means kratos can lift a 2000 tons. link needs those gaunlets for strength

Yes, but I believe it was stated that he has all his equipment(except for the Triforce) in this match.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Haha, you sir are fair and reasonable. I wouldn't call it an assumption, though, considering that in TP it dances aroudn sayign it directly but says things kind of like it, but yeah, the evil thing seems pretty applicable and whether or not it'd work on Kain is subject to much speculation which is hard to prove for either side and... Well let's just move on, lol.

For the "he TK's Link and undresses him" lol selective quote, situation I'd ask to see the limits on what Kain can TK before I made any argument.

lol, yes well, I prob should have chosen those words a little more

Well surely if he can lift objects, human bodies etc with his TK here:

L_gSZlNqNQo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_gSZlNqNQo

He moves Moebius' staff, an item from the beginning 0:21 and holds Moebius, perhaps an estimated 5 1/2-6 ft tall human. now as long as none of Links pieces of equipment are heavier than a human or smaller than a blood cell, its fair to say he could take it from him.

Originally posted by Phanteros
BT, it protects him from all non physical threats. Kain can still win this in a melee fight though

Can you show me where this is stated please?

and technically, Tk is physical.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I believe Kain can levitate and throw people around. Not sure if it would be enough to pull a sword out of a grip of a person who can lift thousands of tons, though.

Well that would depend on the gauntlets themselves, how are they fastened? lets assume Link is wearing these, we still cannot assume he is using his full strength from the very beginning, clutching as hard as he can on his sword, especially since he does not know what powers Kain will employ first, infact it may be likely he would not use the sword from the beginning, since he may want to use the bow or whatever other useful item he may have.

How are the gauntlets fastened? are they easy to slip on or off? if so then Kain could steal them and perhaps even use them against Link.

Phanteros
Originally posted by Burning thought
lol, yes well, I prob should have chosen those words a little more

Well surely if he can lift objects, human bodies etc with his TK here:

gSZlNqNQo

He moves Moebius' staff, an item from the beginning 0:21 and holds Moebius, perhaps an estimated 5 1/2-6 ft tall human. now as long as none of Links pieces of equipment are heavier than a human or smaller than a blood cell, its fair to say he could take it from him.



Can you show me where this is stated please?

and technically, Tk is physical.



Well that would depend on the gauntlets themselves, how are they fastened? lets assume Link is wearing these, we still cannot assume he is using his full strength from the very beginning, clutching as hard as he can on his sword, especially since he does not know what powers Kain will employ first, infact it may be likely he would not use the sword from the beginning, since he may want to use the bow or whatever other useful item he may have.

How are the gauntlets fastened? are they easy to slip on or off? if so then Kain could steal them and perhaps even use them against Link.
i can't there's no statement on the matter...

Burning thought
Hm I see, what does back up what you said then? does anything actually say that it does indeed without question protect against all non physical effects?

ArtificialGlory
Is there supposed to be some kind of video there? There's only an empty space messed

Burning thought
yes I goofed, fixed AND added a link for the sake of it

ThunderGodEneru
Mastersword is not what saves Link from Ganon's powers. The plot does.

Kain cannot TK something from the grip of someone who can lift 1,000 tons.

Burning thought
He can if their not gripping tightly or using all their strength, you cant assume just because a person can use that much strength, that their using it constantly, not to mention the fact, that you would have to prove he can use the Master sword while using the gauntlets by proving the durability of the Master swords sword guard is indeed that strong. But grabbing the Master sword was not my only argument, he may depending on how the Gauntlets are fastened, simply take the gauntlets with it.

XanatosForever
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Mastersword is not what saves Link from Ganon's powers. The plot does.

Kain cannot TK something from the grip of someone who can lift 1,000 tons.

So you're saying its properties as shown in TP are not enough to establish it canon?

I may have already been debunked on this, but I just want to make sure.

@BT: Even if Kain did try to TK the gauntlets, it would be a matter of TKing Link so he's no longer making a fist, otherwise he'll be fighting the strength to keep the gauntlets on which, I think, would still be benefiting from the buff.

ThunderGodEneru
The gauntlets are tightly on his forearms, and Kain's TK has never shown to be this precise.

The Master Sword's hilt can take the force of two beings of around that strength clashing.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
The gauntlets are tightly on his forearms, and Kain's TK has never shown to be this precise.

The Master Sword's hilt can take the force of two beings of around that strength clashing.


TKing blood cells is more precise than any "tight" gauntlets, although what Xanatos says holds true, if he clenches his hands and uses his strength to keep the gauntlets on then Kain cannot TK 1000+ tons, but I doubt Link can hold a sword or weapon with his hands in such a manner that makes it difficult for Kain to slip them off, not to mention, if all they are is tight on his arms, and not actually fastened, then Link is going to try massively hard if its even possible, to keep those gauntlets on while fighting.

Meh whom?

Voyeur
idk who can win.

isn't Kain a vampire? Link puts on garlic gloves, holy water, does the sword plant via wooden stake into his heart. GG =P

nah but for real, I'm actually going to condition and train my Sheik on Super Smash at the moment so have fun.

XanatosForever
Originally posted by Burning thought
TKing blood cells is more precise than any "tight" gauntlets, although what Xanatos says holds true, if he clenches his hands and uses his strength to keep the gauntlets on then Kain cannot TK 1000+ tons, but I doubt Link can hold a sword or weapon with his hands in such a manner that makes it difficult for Kain to slip them off, not to mention, if all they are is tight on his arms, and not actually fastened, then Link is going to try massively hard if its even possible, to keep those gauntlets on while fighting.

Meh whom?

BT, that's just silly to assume that Link doesn't have the gauntlets fastened. In any case, how accurate is Kain's TK? Is he nimble enough with it that he could unfasten the gauntlets and pull them off before Link could realize what was going on? Personally, I don't think that would be the case. I think, at best, Kain would get the gauntlets unfastened, then Link would realize what's going on and tighten his grip, which you have already admitted would be unbreakable by Kain's TK.

Burning thought
You saw what he did with Moebius' staff, one gesture, less than a second and it was across the room....all Kain needs to do is get them off his hands and its not silly to assume their not fastened, tbh not every pair of gauntlets have the ability to be fastened, some are just held on through tightness to the arms, not actual bonds much like gloves. But obviously Kain could not break Links grip, he would have to lift thousand odd tonnes. Although tbh you have to be careful when taking those weights in hand. For example your feat for his 1k ton strength is of him lifting up a rock, did he use both his hands and a lot of his strength? if not all? For example if Kain wanted to, he could attempt to weaken Links grip by manipualting each finger or do what he did to Moebius and send a painful jolt through Link which would likely make him lose his concetration even if he didnt lose his grip straight away.

fascistcrusader
Kain stomps.

Voyeur
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Kain stomps.
no greater debating skills have been shown, it brought tears to my eyes.

We should just start summarizing all our debates to

(character X) > (character Y)

it'd be so awesome =D

ScreamPaste
One issue with this is that it's speculation whether the sword would recognise Kain as evil, and whether simply trying to kill it's master is enough to set off it's magical alarms, because Nintendo never lays things out like this in black and white for the fans, lol. But assuming it does, it pretty much exempts Link from beign touched by TK and the like. another issue is the strength of the TK, what is mobius states strength and reflex time? Many characters can over power a normal human with TK, Link is far above that, so even if the TK applies I'm not sure it would even noticably hinder Link, who even while being TKed could probably execute any action he wished, if that is the limit of Kain's TK.

It appears one of TGE and I's main divisions is on the properties of the sword and why Ganon loses, I agree it's plot, but the plot uses the sword to cover it's ass, as explained in my earlier post.

Also, no one other than Link may wield the master sword. /sidenote.

Burning thought
The only limit of TK is the weight it is trying to stop moving, Links strength is impressive only with his gauntlet covered hand strength from what ive seen, so assuming Link is as tall as moebius, he would be equelly stopped by TK.

But Tk is just one of Kains many powers, Kain can use the repel shield to make him immune to damage for 10+ seconds (possibly indefinaltey, it can be cast more than once) and reflect spells.

Blood shower and Kains various time powers are also abilites kain could use to wipe out Link, a simple time reaver distortion or even an incpaciation bolt would be a powerful move. Ime not sure Link can do anything to stop blood shower.

Also all Balance guardians such as Kain have regulation over magic, that means he would stop Link from using any.

Voyeur
@ 1:26
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@00:48
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@2:30
Bx0Yfg6EasQ

Link can lift and toss a Goron (who's body weights in general as a race are made up of pure muscle mass and the fact they're combined with some sort or rock, hence they sink in water) with Armor, as well as drag and pull a full on Gigantic Twilight steroid Goron along the ground. Gorons roll rapidly at speeds up to 60-70 MPH and Link is able to catch and stop them from moving any further. And he matchs head to head and even over power in feats of pure strength against Ganondorf. A much larger and obviously more physically stronger being then himself. Link isn't only limited to his strength via the Golden Gauntlets, Braclet etc. items. He actually is already physically strong.

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by Burning thought
TKing blood cells is more precise than any "tight" gauntlets, although what Xanatos says holds true, if he clenches his hands and uses his strength to keep the gauntlets on then Kain cannot TK 1000+ tons, but I doubt Link can hold a sword or weapon with his hands in such a manner that makes it difficult for Kain to slip them off, not to mention, if all they are is tight on his arms, and not actually fastened, then Link is going to try massively hard if its even possible, to keep those gauntlets on while fighting.

Meh whom? He does not TK blood cells though.

And the gauntlets are fastened, and to take them off would be overpowering Link, which is not happening.

And Link using his class 100 strength to grip his sword and shield will not allow him to take it.

Ganondorf.

Gumachi
Originally posted by Burning thought
First Kain does not feed on souls, he feeds no blood and he has proven not to require blood, after his heart is ripped out remember? infact he doesnt require any physical sustinance. Blood simply makes him more powerful by giving him the powers of those he drinks from.

I heard they needed to feed on souls to live.

Burning thought
Well ill concede on strength claims, Kain will not use TK to take things Link can hold. Hell either use TK to send Link into cardiac (spelling?) arrest and he will bleed to death/die of a heart condition.

or kill him with a variety of other powers from time, to blood, to mind.
Originally posted by Gumachi
I heard they needed to feed on souls to live.


hm no, thats Raziel, the soul reaver.....Vampires drink blood...

ScreamPaste
Does Kain's TK have the power to harm Link's super durable body?

Burning thought
He is not harming links durable body, hes moving the blood within Links body, preferably to the heart or any other vulerable location to burst it or send it into cardiac.

ThunderGodEneru
Never happened.

Burning thought
Well no because Link is not in the Legacy of Kain games silly

Voyeur
when I RP'ed my character had molecularkinesis. Which is something I totally made up.
Originally posted by Burning thought
The only limit of TK is the weight it is trying to stop moving
Telekinesis on the other had we already stated what it can do, bring a physical manifestation from mental thought. So Kain on his own would have to physically be able to cause Link to go into cardiac arrest. You'll notice when people are choked by Telekinesis they grab their neck in attempt to release from it. That is because it is as if the person was actually choking them, they're just doing it with their mind.

But Telekinesis doesn't translate into being able to manipulate molecules or oxygen in the blood stream, let alone blood cells unless there is something Kain can do while those systems are circulating in a persons organs. So, unless Kain could physically, with out ripping through Link's chest, get to his heart and tamper with it, I don't see how he could give him a heart attack.

The Ocarina of Time can be used to Slow down or Double the speed of time around Link. The Song of Time itself can be used to go back in time to (x) amount of span. Besides, is the power Kain has over time a Buff on himself or does it effect those around him? Because Link also has a Reflect spell to immune him from both physical and magical alike.

The Last Great Fairy casts a permanent buff over Link's life and it reduces all damage to half. Link also can cast a Shield spell to reduce damage by half and can even then cast Nayru's love over himself. Stacking and thus greatly reducing any damage he would take by 1.5 the attacks original power.

So any of those things you stated before about "easily" being able to take out Link, I highly doubt.

Also what about transfiguration hex spells. Where the actual genetic and chemical structure of the target is manipulated and turned into what ever it may be. I know that other magical properties that would other wise damage a being or slow them down by manipulation of the Law of physics, time, can be nullified by magical auras and spells but rarely does anyone have counter abilities against hexes. Unlike Link who's Master Sword cures him of being hexed into a Wolf.

Link casts Spell.

Kain is now a Bot

He is only capable of doing what a Bot can do.

Explain how you could escape this? Because frankly you haven't and he would simply be squished into a nothing left but jelly based residue.

for example.

ArtificialGlory
Except Link won't be casting anything because Kain is the Guardian of Balance and can apparently regulate Link's spells. On the other hand, the whole thing is kinda dubious because the last Guardian got pwned by a creepy old man, and Kain doesn't have any feats regulating anything... or does he?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Voyeur


Telekinesis on the other had we already stated what it can do, bring a physical manifestation from mental thought. So Kain on his own would have to physically be able to cause Link to go into cardiac arrest. You'll notice when people are choked by Telekinesis they grab their neck in attempt to release from it. That is because it is as if the person was actually choking them, they're just doing it with their mind.

But Telekinesis doesn't translate into being able to manipulate molecules or oxygen in the blood stream, let alone blood cells unless there is something Kain can do while those systems are circulating in a persons organs. So, unless Kain could physically, with out ripping through Link's chest, get to his heart and tamper with it, I don't see how he could give him a heart attack.

The Ocarina of Time can be used to Slow down or Double the speed of time around Link. The Song of Time itself can be used to go back in time to (x) amount of span. Besides, is the power Kain has over time a Buff on himself or does it effect those around him? Because Link also has a Reflect spell to immune him from both physical and magical alike.

The Last Great Fairy casts a permanent buff over Link's life and it reduces all damage to half. Link also can cast a Shield spell to reduce damage by half and can even then cast Nayru's love over himself. Stacking and thus greatly reducing any damage he would take by 1.5 the attacks original power.

So any of those things you stated before about "easily" being able to take out Link, I highly doubt.

Also what about transfiguration hex spells. Where the actual genetic and chemical structure of the target is manipulated and turned into what ever it may be. I know that other magical properties that would other wise damage a being or slow them down by manipulation of the Law of physics, time, etc. but rarely does anyone have counter abilities against hexes. Unlike Link who's Master Sword cures him of being hexed into a Wolf.

Link casts Spell.

Kain is now a Bot

He is only capable of doing what a Bot can do.


for example.

TK is using the mind to cause physical effect, lifting things etc, Kain can manipulate blood cells using this effect, he would simply make the blood cells travel to the heart and cause cardiac arrest, blood problems or simply splatter link through blood loss, its like a weaker form of blood shower.

But that would assume Link is going to be able to play this tune on his Orcania before Kain destroys him? And kains power has two forms, the reaver spell version is an area around him which slows time to a crawl, his other freezes the opponent solid in time.

Damage reduced by half is a gameplay effect,

Thats a spell, it would be reflected back at link by repel....not to mention how fast is the spell cast? what is its range? etc etc, its unlikely that he can do it while having blood pouring out of him as well through Kains Blood shower or TK.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Except Link won't be casting anything because Kain is the Guardian of Balance and can apparently regulate Link's spells. On the other hand, the whole thing is kinda dubious because the last Guardian got pwned by a creepy old man, and Kain doesn't have any feats regulating anything... or does he?

The last Guardian was Ariel who was stabbed in the back i belive by mortanius, the guardian of Death, although her powers over regulating magic would have been useless anyway since he used a knife to kill her if memory serves me.

No he has no feats of such an act.

ArtificialGlory
Voyeur, that's a very good observation about Telekinesis. I never even thought of it that way, but now that you said it, it makes sense.

BT, do you reckon all that fancy stuff would work on Link? I mean, he's already ridiculously durable, add the Master Sword, and you get a being that not even Ganon can **** with.

Burning thought
ofcourse it would work, certainly if hes not got any feats to escape the fancy stuff, the durability means little to nothing against Kain, Links only hope would be to rely on his own fancy powers to defeat Kain, running at Kain with a sword is suicide.

k1Lla441
Originally posted by Burning thought
Although that could just as well be PIS, if Ganon does indeed have TK that can grab items and objects then it could simply be through gameplay and plot stupidity that he doesnt just disarm Link and pummel him into the ground, ofcourse if theres an actual canon explanation for Link not being able to have his items taken then I would concede that but so far it seems to me a lot of Links power comes from his items and if Kain just steals them off of him as he tries to use them with a gesture hes going to be at a disadvantage.
your right, unless there is a real reason that you cant just automatically use tk on link... then the match is over. real fast.

ArtificialGlory
But it could it be that Ganon, having all these uber powers, fights Link with nothing but his sword just like that? It's either something protecting Link(like the Master Sword), or it's one of the biggest raging PIS moments in gaming history.

Burning thought
The latter is the most likely because PIS is very common, simply saying "well something is protecting him against all of Ganons other powers" is simply going too far, without evidence for the excistence of such a protection especially in a debate its worthless, it has to be PIS. In a discussion however, maybe something is protecting him, we just dont know.

k1Lla441
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
But it could it be that Ganon, having all these uber powers, fights Link with nothing but his sword just like that? It's either something protecting Link(like the Master Sword), or it's one of the biggest raging PIS moments in gaming history.
If anything its the latter, your blowing it up temendously to make it seem like its a big deal. And he uses more than his sword, he floats, he shoots those electicity balls, and he makes platforms disapper iirc.

k1Lla441
rofl, we nearly had the same thought.

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
But it could it be that Ganon, having all these uber powers, fights Link with nothing but his sword just like that? It's either something protecting Link(like the Master Sword), or it's one of the biggest raging PIS moments in gaming history. It is one of the biggest. At least most cases of PIS have an explanation.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by k1Lla441
If anything its the latter, your blowing it up temendously to make it seem like its a big deal. And he uses more than his sword, he floats, he shoots those electicity balls, and he makes platforms disapper iirc.

Bx0Yfg6EasQ

I don't know dude, it doesn't look like he's using anything apart from his sword in that fight.

k1Lla441
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Bx0Yfg6EasQ

I don't know dude, it doesn't look like he's using anything apart from his sword in that fight.
That was just one part of that fight in one of the zelda games.
In the rest of that fight he manipulates zelda, and transforms into a crazy ass mad teleporting bull. in Ocarina of time he does all the things i said he did in my other post, and again its still pis. Im telling you, your making it a big deal.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by k1Lla441
That was just one part of that fight in one of the zelda games.
In the rest of that fight he manipulates zelda, and transforms into a crazy ass mad teleporting bull. in Ocarina of time he does all the things i said he did in my other post, and again its still pis. Im telling you, your making it a big deal.

Oh. I was just reposting the same video that Voyeur had previously linked. I wouldn't know, I've never really played any of the Zelda games.

Voyeur
Already from what Burning has said earlier about TK being able to manipulate blood cells I'm done with this.

Molecularkinesis as done by Dr.Manhattan is the example.

It's not telekinesis that does it. I won't sit here and talk in circles like Terry and the Omnislash (V5) being physical. So if you want to fight the fact that TK apparently has that ability then Kain is over powered and no one in the entire gaming world will ever be able to defeat him. So, have fun.

But as for Bot transforming it's a pure Spell that Link has, literally called 'Spell'. And it's AOE would be limitless since it affects all enemies in the frame at the time. It's also immediate and quick cast, it's from Legend of Zelda 2. There isn't any fancy long animations for cinematic effect in that game.

Damage reduced by half is also game play mechanics but it doesn't take away from the fact that with the Life buff, Shield spell casted and Nayru's love that Link will not be taking any considerable damage and it lessens the blow from many other attacks.

I'll also state that Things such as Nayru's love, Farore's wind and Din's fire are the condensed versions of those Goddesses power and they're probably classified into 'Divine' And normally in games, white and dark magic can be nullified but divine is in a class of it's on and can not be tampered by normal magical means.

side notes: (for others)
Kain's Powers:
All vampires in Nosgoth have their own unique Dark Gift; a supernatural power. Kain's Dark Gift was the ability to use surrounding mist to assume a mist form, which allowed him to be virtually invisible and intangible. He also had a fury ability where he could use a single charged attack against an enemy. While he acquired a number of abilities as a young vampire in Blood Omen, defeat at the hands of the Sarafan Lord in Blood Omen 2, which took 2 centuries to recover thanks to care from the Cabal, made him lose most of his previous powers. Some speculate this loss of power was a result of the Hylden weapon used against him, as the Glyph technology was precisely designed to be used against vampires.

In Blood Omen 2 when he woke from his slumber he retained his mist and fury abilities. Like all vampires Kain could attain weaker variations of other vampires Dark Gifts by drinking their blood. By killing Faustus he gained the power to jump great distances and to inhuman heights. By killing Marcus he acquired the ability to charm the weak willed and bend their minds to his will. By killing Sebastian he acquired super-speed and often used this ability to perform high speed combos on his enemies. By drinking the blood of the Hylden Seer, his natural telekinesis was heightened. By killing Magnus, he gained the ability to immolate matter with pyrokinesis.

The many centuries after Blood Omen 2 had given Kain plenty of time to evolve his powers. In Soul Reaver 1 he had demonstrated the ability to teleport. In Soul Reaver 2, in the opening we see a display of massive strength far beyond Raziel, as well as Kain showing off an ability to generate lightning in his palms. In Defiance we see his telekinetic powers having evolved beyond simply knocking opponents as now he could lift them and cast them away. His mist ability had evolved where now he no longer needed mist to assume the mist form. He also demonstrated an ability to transform into a flock of bats and travel great distances.

I don't see control blood. If you actually literally mean, Kain has the power over blood also, specifically, then that's really over powered except against beings who don't need blood to live. But TK can't do that.

YOU'RE ALSO all wrong and haven't played the games very thoroughly obviously and for the other debators like Paste and stuff, to aid them I will get you actully the exact quotes of what the Master Sword is capable of and how it protects Link. It indeed is the very item that protects him from Ganon's abilities, no simple PIS.

ThunderGodEneru
I loled that no one in gaming can beat Kain because he can TK blood.

Burning thought
It can if its advanced, the advance of telekinetic force can go two ways, into the realms of the small and minute (cells-->microbes etc) and into the large and enormous (castles, mountains, cities) Kains goes into the realm of the minute, as can be seen in this video he Tks blood:

PLz7T1Y_yFQ

He does it again and again, Tking blood from his foes, to his mouth, now in this case that would probably be bad enough but hed prob kill Link faster if he sent the blood not to his mouth, but to Links heart or send it all to another vital organ.

It has to be Telekineisis because TK is the only power Kain has that is capable of doing that kind of thing, other than blood shower which is a specific spell, here are Kains spells:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo1/spells.php

The power of Magnus was also very strong, the immolate spell:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/bo2/gifts.php

Which when used by Magnus blasted large stone statues with a thought into dust.

0ZdFDSO_ZGo

both videos in this post require no timing, it happens from the beginning, until the end.

Voyeur
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
I loled that no one in gaming can beat Kain because he can TK blood.
TK only blood? If that's what he can do
MOLECULARKINESIS, not ****ing telekinesis, then yeah, he is.

Because he could manipulate oxygen instantly around a person in a matter of seconds to have them choking. He could cause their brain to rupture and explode at a mere fraction of the thought. He could do it to their heart, with their blood to anything. When you go beyond telekinesis to state that it is actually molecularkinesis, then it is VERY over powered and is nothing to "lol" at.

My favorite character of all time in fact, Tetsuo Shima, from the 6 book graphic novel series, each one being 200-300+ in pages, has psychokinesis. He actually is a sponge too. And he has molecularkinesis so I know all about this bs. If some one in the gaming world has it, then ...game...honestly...

its not a lower level of telekinesis though. It's Molecularkinesis.
Being able to use "TK" to transfer your body isn't called, body transfer through tk, it's called teleportation. And so on with specifics of manipulation of anything.

Such as controling fire is pyrokinesis like that Magnus spell which Link would be able to withstand better with the Goron/Red/Fire tunic.

It's cool he has that over blood specifically it seems only though to be fair, so it really isn't either Telekinesis or Molecularkinesis, it's some thing on another scale of specific blood manipulation. Which is still very strong.

If he has that ability though, game. Screampaste and others can try and beg to differ with you over that. I can even help them with how the Triforce of Courage (not the whole triforce) and the Master Sword makes Link immune to evils of magic, spells, tk, etc.

Burning thought
I dont know about him only being able to do it with blood, that would not be logical, anything similiar to blood cells in size would be just as able to be Tked by Kain however, although his example in the games is blood. Is oxygen just as small as blood cells? I thot it was diffrent.

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by Voyeur
TK only blood? If that's what he can do
MOLECULARKINESIS, not ****ing telekinesis, then yeah, he is.

Because he could manipulate oxygen instantly around a person in a matter of seconds to have them choking. He could cause their brain to rupture and explode at a mere fraction of the thought. He could do it to their heart, with their blood to anything. When you go beyond telekinesis to state that it is actually molecularkinesis, then it is VERY over powered and is nothing to "lol" at.

My favorite character of all time in fact, Tetsuo Shima, from the 6 book graphic novel series, each one being 200-300+ in pages, has psychokinesis. He actually is a sponge too. And he has molecularkinesis so I know all about this bs. If some one in the gaming world has it, then ...game...honestly... Dude, it is called matter manipulation, and your use of it is wrong.

That is just extremely precise Telekinesis.

And if you think that is enough to be the top of gaming, you have not played alot of videogames.

ScreamPaste
The explanation of the PIS pretty much IS the mastersword, Nintendo has all but said it directly, really. -.o;

All these events of Ganon displaying reality bending, cosmic power, and only using it against Link when he doesn't have the master sword? Various phrases and statements hinting at it's protective power? The mastersword is the largest source of PIS ever.

Gumachi
How far exactly can he bloodshower someone?

Burning thought
What do you mean by that? how far can he bloodshower them?

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
The explanation of the PIS pretty much IS the mastersword, Nintendo has all but said it directly, really. -.o; Prove. It.

Gumachi
How close does he has to beto draw blood from them? And can he it only be done to humans? And can he escape it by teleporting?

Voyeur
Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont know about him only being able to do it with blood, that would not be logical, anything similiar to blood cells in size would be just as able to be Tked by Kain however, although his example in the games is blood. Is oxygen just as small as blood cells? I thot it was diffrent.
It is on a molecular level. You can go down to manipulate DNA with in the cells, and then to atoms and molecules and so on. Down to where you control and manipulate the very fabrics and structures to what creates life. That is MOLECULARKINESIS, not matter manipulation, thought that is what you're doing I suppose. In a sense, yeah it is telekinesis but you're doing it to specific tiny based structures so it goes into it's own sub category and branch of ability.

Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen is capable of it. Go Read that graphic novel ( I read it only 8 months ago myself before the movie) but now with hype you should be easily able to find it.

There is nothing to prove he uses his telekinesis though over the blood to get it that way, so nothing can NOT go as far to say Kain even has molecularkinesis. He does have Telekinesis though for sure. You probably can say that he doesn't control just the blood cells to be fair and that he is just controlling the more easily graspable full liquid and flow of the blood in the person. Though it could be he specifically reigns some sort of ability over blood in humans.

But yeah, any way.

Originally posted by Gumachi
How close does he has to beto draw blood from them? And can he it only be done to humans? And can he escape it by teleporting?
I already had those thoughts immediately and studied the videos. It's clear he would be able to do it at almost any given distance so long as the person is with in visible range (with limitations)

And it was shown being done to other beings, things with blood in general. And almost everything thus far survives via blood in their body.

And yeah, Link would be able to escape it by teleporting if Farore's wind is able to be translated to an instant case, free spell, instead of to a set warp point, slow pain in the ass action.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Prove. It.

Augh, this is going to require a bwnr worthy amount of data collecting, so you had better give me your first born when I'm finished with it.

/Leavestoscourtheinternets

Burning thought
more than a screen, its one of those old games, its prob around 20-40 meters depending on the environment, although thats an estimation. Its done to all beings, not just humans and escaping it by teleporting...not really, the effect happens almost instantly, your blood sprays forth and as the name implies, showers the area in blood...so if the spell has inflicted you, your pretty much dead and Kain would have at least drank the blood meaning he would have Links or anyones powers already by the time he finds them again.

ThunderGodEneru
Stfu.

And being able to manipulate blood cells is not molecular in level, seeing as how cells are much larger than molecules.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Voyeur
It is on a molecular level. You can go down to manipulate DNA with in the cells, and then to atoms and molecules and so on. Down to where you control and manipulate the very fabrics and structures to what creates life. That is MOLECULARKINESIS, not matter manipulation, thought that is what you're doing I suppose. In a sense, yeah it is telekinesis but you're doing it to specific tiny based structures so it goes into it's own sub category and branch of ability.

Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen is capable of it. Go Read that graphic novel ( I read it only 8 months ago myself before the movie) but now with hype you should be easily able to find it.

There is nothing to prove he uses his telekinesis though over the blood to get it that way, so nothing can NOT go as far to say Kain even has molecularkinesis. He does have Telekinesis though for sure. You probably can say that he doesn't control just the blood cells to be fair and that he is just controlling the more easily graspable full liquid and flow of the blood in the person. Though it could be he specifically reigns some sort of ability over blood in humans.

But yeah, any way.


I already had those thoughts immediately and studied the videos. It's clear he would be able to do it at almost any given distance so long as the person is with in visible range (with limitations)

And it was shown being done to other beings, things with blood in general. And almost everything thus far survives via blood in their body.

And yeah, Link would be able to escape it by teleporting if Farore's wind is able to be translated to an instant case, free spell, instead of to a set warp point, slow pain in the ass action.

Yes but affecting DNA is an extra step more than the cell itself, lets say Kain is moving a blood cell, that doesnt mean he can specifically go deeper and effect its DNA, merely physically move the cells.

But the fact that is the only power he has that can do it must mean through the process of logical deduction, that is the ability he is using, if you watch the video where he is moving moebius and his items with TK, he is doing the same arm gesture when manipulating the blood as he does when using TK, I guess it doesnt really matter how hes doing it in the debate.

Well he would have to escape out of range, quite far so Kain cannot continue, but tbh having your blood moved in such a manor would prob upset your body system to a degree that would cause major problems anyway.

ThunderGodEneru
One thing he said is true though, go read Watchmen. Is great.

Burning thought
Isnt there a film or game of it coming soon or already out? reading material is harder for me to get than watching....

Voyeur
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Stfu.

And being able to manipulate blood cells is not molecular in level, seeing as how cells are much larger than molecules.
Resorting to lame acronym swearing accomplishes nothing. Didn't know you're taking what I said previously so personally. No one is being combative and I actually am for once am aiding against Link.

It is a microscopic level though. So small as to you can not see it, like bacteria and other micro sized things. Who is to say that one wouldn't just simply be able to keep going down the scale if that was indeed his power.

I think it looks more like some pure control over the blood stream flow of a person perhaps, imo and perception and it makes Kain a little less over powered. Still strong though.

ThunderGodEneru
The movie is out in theaters, but it is not half as good as the graphic novel, although there is no shame in that. The movie did get about as close to the original genius of Watchmen as it is gonna get though IMO.

Burning thought
So kain wins?

ThunderGodEneru
Don't much care to be honest.

Burning thought
dont lie

ThunderGodEneru
Lie? About what?

Voyeur
no, he hasn't won yet because I'm sure ScreamPaste will want to continue and at this moment I am helping in compile a list of what the master sword specifically is capable of doing by quoting word for word from canon.

I'll also then show what Ganon can do to others who don't hold such a weapon and then ergo prove that it makes Link immune too, if not already by the quotes doing so.

So, it could debunk that Kain could use this very powerful blood manipulation over Link to begin with and the fight will continue as thus. I really honestly need to train my Sheik some damn time lol and yeah. But give me some time.

and for sure the movie did a wonderful job in translation from the graphic novel. My favorite character, the Comedian, all his scenes were very superb and as close as accurate. There are of course time restrictions in a movie which led to no Black Freighter and Squid, but yeah, it's was great.

Burning thought
How much you actually care...

Voyeur
TGE hates Link I think. He has a mad boner for Ganondorf though it seems.

He wouldn't care how the match goes, and neither do I in most cases. We're not discussing my favorite characters and I don't think we ever will be. If so, then I'll have to lay down the hard core debating powers and show where it's at =P

Burning thought
Originally posted by Voyeur
I am helping in compile a list of what the master sword specifically is capable of doing by quoting word for word from canon.


Then please be swift, ime tired of ageing slowly while waiting for you to do this my creamed suger bun you....

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by Voyeur
TGE hates Link I think. He has a mad boner for Ganondorf though it seems.

He wouldn't care how the match goes, and neither do I in most cases. We're not discussing my favorite characters and I don't think we ever will be. If so, then I'll have to lay down the hard core debating powers and show where it's at =P Bingo.

And truth be told I like Kain more than Link.

ScreamPaste
I like Kain, I like Link, I think Link would win in all honesty.

And Voy, your post is pretty much common knowledge, I used to lurk here when TGE was Dark-Jaxx and he "wants to like Link but can't forgive him for beating Ganon"

I still don't see how the swords plot busting properties need better outlining, how they work is open to speculation but that they do seems blatantly obvious to me. I'm doing the work to collect the info into one spot anyway. TGE should be grateful the Mastersword is the source of the PIS though =P

ScreamPaste
Alright, evidence of the sword's rediculous PIS abilities.

The sword's earliest confirmed appearance is in aLttP. Guess what, Ganon has the *entire* triforce to himself in this title. The sword here uses art VERY similiar to the magic sword in Zelda II's info booklet which came with the game cart, suggesting the art atleast, if not the idea, of the sword had been around for some time.

In it's earliest incarnation the Master sword could could destroy and repel evil, including reflecting back magical attacks from Ganon and Aghanim, as well as cut through magical barriers and the like. It had not yet become the fully formed PIS device it was to become, but the basic building blocks were already there. Firstly, because Link does not have a piece of the triforce, and the sword is hailed all through the game in various quotes as the only thing that can save Hyrule.

and it did, in a maddeningly PIS piece of PIS, Link won, but what explains this? How did Link overcome a fully powered up Ganon with the entire triforce? With the mastersword! And so it began..

The next time we see this magical plot blasting blade we've made the jump to OoT and some.. wierd thigns happen. One of the first events in the game as we're introduced to Gerudo form Ganondorf, who was in a nightmare Link had, is that he, with no piece of the triforce, cast a death curse on the Deku tree, a powerful gaurdian of the forest and "entrance to our world". Now, Link quickly becomes a pain worthy of Ganon's note, collecting the stones Ganon wanted for himsef, but Ganon allows this to go on, findign a way to turn it to his advantage. If Link opens the door to the scared realm for him, why bother working himself? /mistake. He threw away his victory by easily prepubescent kill rigth there. THAT is the PIS that lost him every Zelda game ever as OoT is the first in the series that Ganon is in. . Link goes on to get the master sword and the triforce is trisected.

Now Link comes back, and Ganon wants Link's piece of the triforce. At the end of the Forest Temple, Ganon banishes the boss to the gap between dimensions without even being on screen! hax. Link stands a few feet away like "lul,sucker" <--Why not him too?

Hell, why not a death curse?

LATER: Link has freed the sages and Zelda has revealed herself in the temple of time, giving Link the ligth arrows.. Then Ganon is like "*****, I'm not even on screen, but gimmeh your triangle" and traps Zelda in a magic diamond shaped pink bubble. Why not Link? He'd have them both! Full triforce, instant win. Cause Link's holding the damnable sword, imo. It was the only thing that could, Zelda had a piece of the triforce, lotta good that did her, and just like in aLttP, Link's plot device sword keeps him from gettign totally owned by Ganon.

Then, it gets better, Link runs into Ganon's castle, fights his way to the top of the centre tower, and faces Ganon.. who immediately tries to TK Link. He uses "dark magic" to blast Link, but Link simply braces himself, and is fine, nothing happens. Navi however, can't stand it, she's driven away... Why not Link? Why can he stand up to it? Master sword in his hand, he goes to work.

Here, the mastersword does what it did in aLttP, it reflects Ganon's magical attacks with a touch, and proves to be capable of actually harming the evil King. Post fight, Ganon coughs up blood and admits he lost. then he starts yelling and TK'S THE CASTLE DOWN ONTOP OF HIMSELF. Waitwut? Why not just TK Link? Wierd. Hell, that death cuirse shit he used on the deku tree might have been cool, too.

Anyone else see what I see?

In TP, the sword reappears in it's most recent incarnation, except now we're granted a glimpse of what can happen if Link does not have the sword.. o: And it's not fair.

Zant, with only a fraction of Ganon's power TK's Link and effortlessly defeats him, Midna, and a light spirit without even moving. Then transforms Link into a wolf, permanently. Or something..

vQQ3j_bpDmY

Link is forced to seek out the mastersword, which breaks the curse on Link before he even touches it.

http://i41.tinypic.com/15n6stc.jpg

when Link reaches the end of the game, and fights Ganon.. why doesn't he do this? It's PIS, but the PIS obviously has a swource. (badpunisbad.)

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Then, it gets better, Link runs into Ganon's castle, fights his way to the top of the centre tower, and faces Ganon.. who immediately tries to TK Link. He uses "dark magic" to blast Link, but Link simply braces himself, and is fine, nothing happens. Navi however, can't stand it, she's driven away... Why not Link? Why can he stand up to it? Master sword in his hand, he goes to work. It was his dark aura, not TK, and Navi is a four inch tall fairy. Link is not.

The rest of your post needed no response, it was far too founded on speculation.

ScreamPaste
Liez. You didn't read it all, the aLttP bit is kinda bad, and the grammar is horrendous. HOWEVER: the proof is there, especialyl in TP, the most recent title. I'll dig up quotes later, I've been drinking. But it's there.

Edit: When I get a video you'll see he clearly is assaulting Link directly with energy/TK/something. It keeps Navi away, but when Ganon assumes his beast form Navi comes back just fine.

Voyeur
Navi may be a fairy but a fairy is closely related as a descendant to the Goddesses in that world and have a high magical tolerance and ability. In fact what you may think you know about fairies is probably wrong and they actually are high strong, magical prowess beings in general, even in other lore. Physical power has nothing to do in general with resisting what Ganondorf in my interpretation uses to perform his Telekinesis.

e.g. Great Fairies, bottled fairies restore Link back to life fully and so on

edit: when I'm done eating and relaxing I'll actually show you guys quotes word for word Canon to back up all of Paste's claims and how they're not speculation.

ThunderGodEneru
Shut the hell up.

Voyeur
Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
Shut the hell up.
nah, kek.

This debate stuff is pretty easy when no one puts up to much of a challenge or poses an intelligent threat. But debunking amazing biased perception of TK'ing blood cells specifically is tough.

=P

ThunderGodEneru
You are arguing that Navi the fvcking fairy have high durability, you will never prove that.

EVERYTHING Paste said is speculation. Repelling a curse? Sure. Stopping TK, being dumped in another dimension, or time powers?

Please kindly stfu.

Voyeur
I thought you were actually good at this sort of bull shit? But you're kind of really lame and asinine so far.

But umm, yeah...durability by what means? if you punch her, for sure she'll get squashed.

Ganondorf is using his pure blood mage abilities though so send out some sort of attempt to curse and capture Link, but failing. It is able to weaken Navi but not completely dispose of her. That is because it is Ganondorf's spiritual and magical power against her own.

It doesn't matter if she is physically weak or very low in endurance. It's Magic vs Magic. Most Magical based beings in all kinds of games are squishy.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy there is a shit load of different stuff about fairies and I know you won't read that but honestly, they're capable of some pretty twisted stuff. Especially going by Legend of Zelda Lore; Fairies are very well endowed magical and spiritual beings.

Any way *rolls eyes* that isn't the point of this debate. I'll get those master sword quotes some other time when I'm not doing other stuff.

ThunderGodEneru
Originally posted by Voyeur
I thought you were actually good at this sort of bull shit? But you're kind of really lame and asinine so far.

But umm, yeah...durability by what means? if you punch her, for sure she'll get squashed.

Ganondorf is using his pure blood mage abilities though so send out some sort of attempt to curse and capture Link, but failing. It is able to weaken Navi but not completely dispose of her. That is because it is Ganondorf's spiritual and magical power against her own.

It doesn't matter if she is physically weak or very low in endurance. It's Magic vs Magic. Most Magical based beings in all kinds of games are squishy.

and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy there is a shit load of different stuff about fairies and I know you won't read that but honestly, they're capable of some pretty twisted stuff. Especially going by Legend of Zelda Lore; Fairies are very well endowed magical and spiritual beings.

Any way *rolls eyes* that isn't the point of this debate. I'll get those master sword quotes some other time when I'm not doing other stuff. No point you made was ever stated. Anywhere.

And I assure you I am far better at this thing than you are, only I base my debates on facts. Not on speculation or idiocy.

Voyeur
its all fact.

Do you see Ganondorf using physical strength against Navi?


....meh...what a waste of time. This theory bull shit is pretty fun since there is no definite debunking of certain things to a greater respect and I actually have used nothing but facts and quotes and keep to canon in all the other debates, if some one points out other wise then I'll gladly put that down or siphon out why not?

Then again, Theory Bull shit in smash forums is always less fun since...it's debunked by "Lets play." though then it also brings truth to the final matter. Where as this crap can go on for ever.

lets say you're not narrow minded though for a few moments time and realize that Ganondorf isn't using physical power and is presenting some sort of magical presence against Navi. (its not clear what the power is trying to accomplish, IMO drag Link to him) so Navi had to use all her magical output to cancel that effect on herself and then made her drained.

Fairies in the LoZ world are capable of blessing Link with the divine spells of the Goddesses, increasing his over all life capabilities and even the common fairy imps are able to fully restore Link from certain death. That doesn't show feats of their magical prowess? They obviously have SOMETHING going for them.

any way...waste of time.... :]

tl;dr: Physical Endurance = Physical Endurance. Mental Endruance = Mental Endurance. Magical Endurance = Magical Endurance. Spiritual Endurance = Spiritual Endurance. And so on and so on.

e.g. One usually can't punch and break anothers spirit/will on a tangible level.

Burning thought
Reading through Screams and you guys posts, I still cannot find the evidence ,still speculation/assumption, or was the evidence not posted yet?

Also regardless of the evidence, anyone can still play on the fact the Mastersword protects against evil, and in LOK kain not considered evil, infact the idea of evil is a point of view, wheras in Zelda series, its a tangible force thus its likely the sword only protects against ganon and those beings actually thought to be evil.

XanatosForever
The draining of the blood of "innocent" bystanders...perhaps I should say helpless instead...could hardly be considered "good", now can it?

Burning thought
Point of view, Kain drinks blood to survive and strengthen himself, its like eating animals as a human being, it all depends on beliefs. Fact is, Kain is not evil, and hes not unlike Ganon depicted as an evil entity, Ganon on the other hand is "king of evil" and seems like an evil embodiment in that world.

XanatosForever
Okay, I could understand the whole "food chain" debate, if it weren't for one very important fact. Humans, while animals, are sentient in a way most animals clearly aren't. That's part of what makes us consider animals...well...animals.

To put it in an example, if Kain happened to need sustenance, and he chose you to drain, would you consider it evil that he was essentially stealing your life to prolong his?

Burning thought
Well theres no point in having a moral debate since thats not what this forum is for, simple fact is, Kain is not considered evil, and a point of view of someone doesnt make them evil, so the Mastersword is likely if not definaltey useless protectionwise against Kain and his powers.

I wouldnt consider it evil, I would consider it certainly an inconveniance for my part but not "evil", maybe cruel depending on the rest of the set up. Obvioulsy if he chose me, 19 years old, fairly young, maybe with a life ahead of he while at the same time, a sick and dieing 90 year old was in the next room, then I would probably think on his morals, although tbh if Kain was coming at me for blood, how morally wrong he is would not be going through my mind.

But as I said, a moral debate is not part of this forum and its not really relevent, a point of view is not enough to condemn anyone, wheras evil for Ganon is not a point of view, its a substantial and tangible status.

XanatosForever
Well, then, this becomes an issue of alignment between worlds. If evil is a point of view for Kain, it doesn't change what is considered evil to Link and the Master Sword. They have a set standard of good and evil, and regardless of Kain's opinion, his actions will resonate to one side of the spectrum or the other, and chances are those actions will lean towards the side of "evil".

Burning thought
Well maybe in the eyes of the people of Hyrule, but not to kain, not to mention he does not have to adhere by their rules. Also Evil is not just a point of view in the Zelda games, its just a constant force which is why weapons that are made to fight "evil" exist and have actual properties against those kinds of beings, since Kain is not that kind of being, some sort of manifestation of evil like Ganon seems to be, then the Master sword would not protect Link against Kain.

Voyeur
http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Master_Sword

To busy and need to go at the moment to go through my games and get pure word for word quotes of Canon from the game of how the Master Sword actually, literally protects Link from curses and magic and such.

Also though, it is clear Kain is a pure telekinetic, unlike what I think of Ganondorf. Ganondorf is a pure blooded mage (yes they call him a Wizard but that is wrong, since Wizards need to recite incantations to cast spells, Ganon does not) So with an extensive knowledge of of many spells and curses and so forth, he can quick cast and purely in his blood use them, even some being like that of Telekinesis.

Though...in my own above rant I do realize they call him a Wizard and perhaps he actually is a Wizard with Telekinetic powers. I mean, Zelda is a Telepath, Telekinetic and has precognitive dreams, so it wouldn't be hard to think Ganondorf does have TK.

None the less my view is; he's a pure blooded mage with the power of magic flowing through his blood and veins, so he doesn't need to recite incantations. So he just is using spells that levitate things and so on.

Some one else can argue he is a pure telekinetic like Kain. Anyway, the master sword would protect from such spells and all but I don't know if any translation it would defend link from a 100% telekinetic. If Kain is evil though, then, it most likely would have some defense.

Any way, later.

EDIT: everything I say about Ganondorf is pure theory and speculation based on my extensive knowledge of Wizards, mages and other magical beings from playing many other games and reading folk lore of many stories. D&D from a mate and so on.
But he could very well be a Wizard with telekinesis.

ScreamPaste
If Kain were to try to kill Link I don't think the sword would need much nudging to register Kain as a jerk. The sword seems to function fine against beings with no concept of evil, such as the twili, even in the twlight realm.

Burning thought
But thats in a universe where evil manifests as actual beings and as a tanigible form, in Legacy of Kain, evil is nothing more than an ideology and by some, kain is a messiah of good, attempting to save the world....which technically he is.

ScreamPaste
Which is cool, I enjoy the LoK games, haha.

But for the purposes of this debate he's also trying to kill someone else who's job is to save the world, and who does so in a much less questionable manner =P and I see what you mean, with Ganon being the seeming emobdiment of evil. Really, it's not so, he created all the evil that sorrounds himself, and has a human side. Before Ganondorf there were no physical embodiments of evil.

I don't see how the sword's PIS ability's can be called speculation, the real speculation is who it works on, lol.

Some of Kain's methods would seem evil to Link, some of his motivations would seem good. The sword, has no stated way of figuring out the black and white cases. So this enters the "what if" area.

IF it does work, TK and blood shower are out, and the sword acts as anathema to Kain.

if not, I don;t think Kain's TK is that dangerous, and he could probably resist blood shower. Anytime Kain lifts him off the ground, he knocks and pulls an arrow, and kain either breaks concentration and gtfo's or gets it.

what is the most durable being Kain has ever bloodshowered?

Burning thought
yes well it does not matter how evil Link thinks Kain is, or indeed if the whole world Link comes from thought this, the fact remains is, what someone thinks does not make someone else evil.

Ive answered this before many times, durability is not a factor when conditioning Blood shower, what Ib should be asking, is what kind of magic has Link resisted?

Also I cant see how TK can be seen as something the sword can protect against, its a mental force projected by Kain to create physical bonds, that would be like trying to stop Kains mental projection....I doubt the sowrd has ever done that.

Also surely the source of teh Master swords and indeed other Link powers sources are magic? since Kain is the regulator of magic, he would likely deem Link unable to use their power, unless ofcourse the items do not use magic as their power source.

I am who I am
Link can take this easily. He's made destroy peeps like Kain.

ScreamPaste
They do use magic, but it is divine magic from the goddesses.

I'll be back with magic specific endurance feats.

Voyeur
yeah, the very sages forged and created the master sword to protect it from specific evils that even would have obtained the Triforce, so in light of that, it's reasonable the Master Swords properties of magic or what not, go for beyond any extension of normal level charms.

It's forged and created for the very sole purpose to be the tool against all those who try to harm it's wielder.

I understand Kain has this power to control and regulate magic (is there proof of that by the way, footage of him using that or is it speculation based on what other people in his race have done) and even thus if he does show to have this ability what extension of canceling others magic is there?

i.e. can you stop certain bosses or anyone with very powerful from using their magic

if not then I don't think he could cancel out divinity of the Goddesses magic, who created the entire land of hyrule, the law of physics and time and life itself on the planet. The same Goddesses who reascending into the heavens created the sacred realm and the Triforce, which you now know of that's power.

So, the magic of the Master Sword and of Nayru's love and so on, are not simple parlor tricks or spells from pure mage blood nor books.

Burning thought
The power of magic regulation is a specific and only power the Balance guardians have, Kain is one of them, it is the regulation of magic. Which ofcourse means he is judge, jury etc over magic. Now if he so wishes it, he would by defintion of regulation, stop Link from using magic, stop the magic in his items and weapons. Balance guardian is not a race, a being is chosen to become that guardian and gains the power to regulate magic, there are other guardians to regulate other things such as abstract forces such as Death, the state of matter, energy etc. Kain is the regulator of Magic.

Voyeur
Kain's an anti-hero, if you ever wanted a correct label.

Like Deadpool.

And I read up on Kain and no where do I see he has this power of magic, he is the guardian of balance and all, but could you provide with a quote or video proof that he has this power to govern so highly over magic. I have yet to come across such.

I still also don't think that the divine blessing upon the Sword or through the condensed powers of the Goddesses into Din's Fire, Faroroe's Wind, and Nayru's love, can be countered by such ability. It would be out of his jurisdiction. Besides, canceling out things that try to cancel the Master Sword is what it does best. It would be a stale mate and thus, the master sword would still be able to carry out its normal duties.

But if you can get proof Kain has this power to cancel magic in general, that would leave a lot of Link's other spells nullified.

Burning thought
http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php



And as youll see, kain is among them.

Magic is his juristiction, if its magic then it cant be out of his jurisitction can it.

ScreamPaste
The role of the Balance Guardians was a reglatory one; their magic influenced the regulation of the other magic in Nosgoth.

This suggests there are limits on it.

Burning thought
Not exactley, since Nosgoth is the place the whole games universe is set in, it would be like saying "link has this incredible strength of the gauntlets in Hyrule" and me saying that is a limit on his strength.

ScreamPaste
Exept Link goes places other than Hyrule in his games and his abilities function fine, I'm more or less pointing out it looks as though he only has jurisdiction in his region, like a magic cop.

Also, I don't see how Kain could cut off Link's ties to the goddesses, there needs to be soem sort of feat to qauntify Kain's power?

Burning thought
Well the Zelda universe then, what ime saying is that Nosgoth is pretty much the universe Kain comes from, it wouldnt say he regulates magic anywhere else because he is not depicted anywhere other than Nosgoth.

I dont see why, Kain is the regulation, so power is not a question is it, if someone regulates something the power of the thing their regulating is determined by them alone. otherwise thay sort of defeats the point of regulation.

Voyeur

Burning thought

Voyeur
I agree that we should go above and beyond game mechanics, but nothing openly suggests he can do that sort of manipulation of the blood control other wise. Like I said, even if it is evident to see that he may, he simply does not. Or else, you'd have that ability in game I'd imagine against certain enemies and so on. I see the irony in this statement but it holds true.

Regulation means Balance. Even one of the definitions, to put in good order. Hence he is the Pillar of Balance guardian. Balance wouldn't be to make something one extreme to the next. And removing Link of all his magical capabilities is Unbalanced. It isn't regulating.

None the less, nothing proves that even that would intervene with the divinity of the Gods that bless Link, or the fact I stated before the master sword leaves such attempts moot.

So, yes, blood cell, blood, the flow or what not. etc etc. I still can not debunk that and it stays as that. The only way Kain could get it from Link is to draw it out of his open mouth, since Link's skin is highly durable to wounds. While using pure telekinesis to pin him down and such.

Though during this, it would be that Link would be able to still hook shot Kain or fire an arrow and such to cancel out a continuing blood loss. Since telekinesis is physical pressure applied and we've proven with his fastened gauntlets, let alone already natural muscle strength, that Link could thwart the hold off eventually. Kain just needs to do this blood siphoning in intervals until Link had loss enough blood though.

Since it isn't telekinesis and is not some form of magic, and is unlabeled in what Kain can do but clearly just has this control over blood, I can't say Link has anything against that specifically at this moment. You could beg to differ if you want Scream, that this unknown power can be combated with the Master Sword's veil.

If it can cancel being transmutated into a wolf at will or even being dimensionally sealed, puppet and mind controlled, and so on a list down the line from Ganondorf, then I think it would fairly be able to not allow such a blood harvest on Link.

what are you restricting the master sword too BT? because it actually has some feats that is title dependent.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Voyeur
I agree that we should go above and beyond game mechanics, but nothing openly suggests he can do that sort of manipulation of the blood control other wise. Like I said, even if it is evident to see that he may, he simply does not. Or else, you'd have that ability in game I'd imagine against certain enemies and so on. I see the irony in this statement but it holds true.

Regulation means Balance. Even one of the definitions, to put in good order. Hence he is the Pillar of Balance guardian. Balance wouldn't be to make something one extreme to the next. And removing Link of all his magical capabilities is Unbalanced. It isn't regulating.

None the less, nothing proves that even that would intervene with the divinity of the Gods that bless Link, or the fact I stated before the master sword leaves such attempts moot.

So, yes, blood cell, blood, the flow or what not. etc etc. I still can not debunk that and it stays as that. The only way Kain could get it from Link is to draw it out of his open mouth, since Link's skin is highly durable to wounds. While using pure telekinesis to pin him down and such.

Though during this, it would be that Link would be able to still hook shot Kain or fire an arrow and such to cancel out a continuing blood loss. Since telekinesis is physical pressure applied and we've proven with his fastened gauntlets, let alone already natural muscle strength, that Link could thwart the hold off eventually. Kain just needs to do this blood siphoning in intervals until Link had loss enough blood though.

Since it isn't telekinesis and is not some form of magic, and is unlabeled in what Kain can do but clearly just has this control over blood, I can't say Link has anything against that specifically at this moment. You could beg to differ if you want Scream, that this unknown power can be combated with the Master Sword's veil.

If it can cancel being transmutated into a wolf at will or even being dimensionally sealed, puppet and mind controlled, and so on a list down the line from Ganondorf, then I think it would fairly be able to not allow such a blood harvest on Link.

what are you restricting the master sword too BT? because it actually has some feats that is title dependent.

Thats like saying Link can only slash with his sword the exact ways weve seen in the game, if the game only showed him slashing down...that doesnt mean in a debate, or in a real battle, he couldnt slash from side to side...weve seen him manipulate blood, thats all we need as evidence to decide that instead of moving the blood north, he will move it south into the heart.

Not quite, balance or "balance" guardian means to make sure things are even, regulation is Kains power that allows him to keep the magical balance, obviously he woudlnt give a damn about balance against Link, since in this debate hes going to try and Kill him. Balance and regulaton are diffrent things.

The only question is do they use magic, yes or no? if its yes, then Kain can regulate it.

Depends, theres more than one way to draw blood with a bit of pressure, burst an artery, through the pores etc etc, being durable against striking objects is not the same as being imperivious, skin is indeed covered in tiny holes as you likely very well know.

Can you show me the Mastersword doing these things please? resisting dimenstional seal and such, ime not sure ive seen it. although no we cannot assume it would protect link from the blood harvest.

Ime restricting it to any canonically official feats, e.g. if its canonically stated/shown to definaltey stop a certain power, then it can stop it. You cant assume however that just because Ganon or another being who has a power, didnt use it on Link or couldnt that it was because of the Master Sword.

LLLLLink
Link uses the Mirror shield to reflect any TK. The official ability of the Mirror shield is that it reflects or absorbs ENERGY. TK is a type of energy, just like chi, ki or whatever. Therefore, it gets reflected or absorbed, regardless of the effect.

Gumachi
How can you reflect TK?

K1ll3r
It doesn't reflect the actual force, it reflects the energy necessary to create the force. (I think)

Anyway, interesting debate!

LLLLLink
Originally posted by Gumachi
How can you reflect TK?

With the Mirror Shield, appearantly. Or matching it with equal force (like Anakin and Obiwan's Force-lock in ep 3).

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Link uses the Mirror shield to reflect any TK. The official ability of the Mirror shield is that it reflects or absorbs ENERGY. TK is a type of energy, just like chi, ki or whatever. Therefore, it gets reflected or absorbed, regardless of the effect.

He won't be using any shields in Kain's presence.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
He won't be using any shields in Kain's presence.

...Yet another statement without reason, not worth responding to in its current form.

ScreamPaste
Epic bamp because I see BT watching, and I never should have been as nice to him as I was.

LLLLLink
Lol, why?

MooCowofJustice
Yeah, this thread didn't even make it to ten pages, somebody quit too easily.

ScreamPaste
I WILL NEVER FAIL SO SPECTACULARLY AGAIN.

Anyway, this thread gives Link all his powers, so he goes back in time thousands of years and slays Kain before he becomes a vampire.

/thread.

Phanteros
who bump this crap?

ScreamPaste
Me. :]

Phanteros
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Me. :] If you know who wins why bump it. also in the wiki we need a better debate outcome.

ScreamPaste
I'm unsure how to implment that without offending people. You can PM me any ideas.

Burning thought
I dont even know why I wasted any time creating this silly little spite thread. Although the conclusion on it has already been drawn.

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