Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

All Firestorms combined except the FS elemental.

Classic Thor and Classic Surfer.

Full Harness Orion.

50/50

Superman => Orion
FireStorm>Hal
SS>Thor

I would say team 1 though, unless FS can help superman overcome radiation that will come from Hal, and SS

Team One.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman => Orion
FireStorm>Hal
SS>Thor

I would say team 1 though, unless FS can help superman overcome radiation that will come from Hal, and SS

Thor > Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor > Silver Surfer.
Not classic thor

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Not classic thor

Classic Thor is superior to Classic Norrin based on their encounters. If I recall right, Norrin has even admitted to Thor being his superior in the past.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Classic Thor is superior to Classic Norrin based on their encounters. If I recall right, Norrin has even admitted to Thor being his superior in the past.

Yup.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Yup.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Classic Thor is superior to Classic Norrin based on their encounters. If I recall right, Norrin has even admitted to Thor being his superior in the past.

Actually the only time surfer "admitted" that he was below classic thor was when he was trapped on earth and weakened. Heck even in that encounter surfer seemed to be getting the upper hand. The only other fight was the Blood and thunder arc where thor was clearly amped.

Now im not going to argue either way on this as to who is more powerful (id rather not argue against thor or surfer). But superiority cant be determined from their encounters which were influenced by different circumstances.

Classic SS > Classic Thor

there was also the case were Surfer nearly killed thor with a single blast.

The only time these two version fought in normal level was in what if's and Norrin dominated both

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually the only time surfer "admitted" that he was below classic thor was when he was trapped on earth and weakened. Heck even in that encounter surfer seemed to be getting the upper hand. The only other fight was the Blood and thunder arc where thor was clearly amped.

Now im not going to argue either way on this as to who is more powerful (id rather not argue against thor or surfer). But superiority cant be determined from their encounters which were influenced by different circumstances.

Thor wasn't amped with the Power Gem the first two times he kicked the crap out of Silver Surfer and it wasn't Warrior Madness during Blood and Thunder. He beat him twice before he had the Power Gem and Silver Surfer had help from Adam Warlock etc.

In the end Silver Surfer clearly said that he was not holding back anymore, and they went at it for a page and then Thor said enough, and knocked him out.

During their first fight, neither had the upper hand, and Loki added his own significant power to Silver Surfer and Thor was holding back.

Silver Surfer clearly said that Thor had more power (Or was it strength) than he could ever know.

That's an admittance of inferiority in my opinion.

I believe that Classic Thor and Classic Silver Surfer are as close as they come, but I think that internally Thor is superior, but externally Silver Surfer is superior. It balances each other out but I give the win to Thor because in my opinion he has more power on tap. Silver Surfer isn't far behind and can obviously win as these two are significantly close in terms of power. Either could win, and I could see Silver Surfer winning, but in my opinion Thor would come out on top but he would feel it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


It wasn't warrior madness it's was some sort of madness either it was warrior or not

this was confirm by Odin when he enter his mind that this thor was different. Also even before The power gem Thor he was operating at ahigher than normal level.


And later he said that he was still holding back - This was until Thor obtained the Power Gem thats when he says they will go all out

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor wasn't amped with the Power Gem the first two times he kicked the crap out of Silver Surfer and it wasn't Warrior Madness during Blood and Thunder. He beat him twice before he had the Power Gem and Silver Surfer had help from Adam Warlock etc.
In the end Silver Surfer clearly said that he was not holding back anymore, and they went at it for a page and then Thor said enough, and knocked him out.

During their first fight, neither had the upper hand, and Loki added his own significant power to Silver Surfer and Thor was holding back.

Silver Surfer clearly said that Thor had more power (Or was it strength) than he could ever know.

That's an admittance of inferiority in my opinion.

I believe that Classic Thor and Classic Silver Surfer are as close as they come, but I think that internally Thor is superior, but externally Silver Surfer is superior. It balances each other out but I give the win to Thor because in my opinion he has more power on tap. Silver Surfer isn't far behind and can obviously win as these two are significantly close in terms of power. Either could win, and I could see Silver Surfer winning, but in my opinion Thor would come out on top but he would feel it.


In Blood and thunder thor was clearly more powerful than usual. And i mean clearly. I even remeber Beta ray bill saying that "he drew strength from the madness". so regardless of whether it was actual warrior madness or not. He was more powerful than usual and certainly could not have replicated the same thing regularly.


During the first fight surfer actually got more hits in and downed thor. The only thing that made thor seem superior was when surfer said he had seen thors hammers magic and it was superior to his own cosmic force. However, considering that the surfer that said that was the depowered earth version, who also at that period was written at his weakest level i wouldnt take it as the empirical proof that classic thor>>>surfer. Classic surfer was written far stronger as the years went on.

I also believe they are very close powerwise and hence it would be a tossup.

Thor was definitely in Warrior Madness during his first fight with Surfer (and BRB for that matter.)

Then later on in the issues he fights him again both with WM and with the Power Gem aiding him.






I don't think I've read their original fight.

Originally posted by kgkg
It wasn't warrior madness it's was some sort of madness either it was warrior or not

It wasn't warrior madness. He just lost it because of Odin and all the multiple Thor clones etc. He was loony but not amped in power.

Originally posted by kgkg
this was confirm by Odin when he enter his mind that this thor was different. Also even before The power gem Thor he was operating at ahigher than normal level.

He wasn't amped as it wasn't actual Warrior Madness. True he would be fighting rougher etc. than he normally would but it never said that his power was amped and it shouldn't be sad as it wasn't warrior madness.

Of course his mind was different.

Originally posted by kgkg
And later he said that he was still holding back - This was until Thor obtained the Power Gem thats when he says they will go all out

When did he say that?

I must have missed it and he is contradicting himself.

The first time they fought during that arc, in the end he said he wasn't holding back and Thor still defeated him.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSilverSurfer2fight12.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSilverSurfer2fight13.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSilverSurfer2fight14.jpg

The second time they fight, he and Adam Warlock were both defeated.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Actually the only time surfer "admitted" that he was below classic thor was when he was trapped on earth and weakened. Heck even in that encounter surfer seemed to be getting the upper hand. The only other fight was the Blood and thunder arc where thor was clearly amped. .

- That was retconned
- Surfer "won" the fight
- Loki added his own power to the Surfer's that fight

Originally posted by Naija boy
In Blood and thunder thor was clearly more powerful than usual. And i mean clearly. I even remeber Beta ray bill saying that "he drew strength from the madness". so regardless of whether it was actual warrior madness or not. He was more powerful than usual and certainly could not have replicated the same thing regularly.

He wasn't amped during that arc. He was mental, and I do believe Beta Ray Bill said that, but people in berserk rages draw strength as well. Thor could accomplish what he did in Blood and Thunder, he just isn't one to unleash that type of power and not hold back on his own friends.

How was he amped?

He did not receive any upgrades. He simply went crazy.

Was he tapping into his potential etc.?

That could be said. Either way, it never showed him being amped. It wasn't warrior madness, it was just him going screw loose.

If Silver Surfer lost his mind, and went on a rampage, what he did would be within his power, but not within his character as he does not randomly commit acts of violence. Everything Thor did, he could do, it was within his power but not within his character.

Originally posted by Naija boy
During the first fight surfer actually got more hits in and downed thor. The only thing that made thor seem superior was when surfer said he had seen thors hammers magic and it was superior to his own cosmic force. However, considering that the surfer that said that was the depowered earth version, who also at that period was written at his weakest level i wouldnt take it as the empirical proof that classic thor>>>surfer. Classic surfer was written far stronger as the years went on.

During that fight Silver Surfer himself said that Thor was holding back and that Thor knew from the beginning that he was being deceived, and he was holding back his strength.That barrier that was able to keep Mjolnir from Thor was shattered with one blow by Thor. Thor downed him but it isn't like he did anything serious or permanent. Thor seemed unharmed after he got back up.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I also believe they are very close powerwise and hence it would be a tossup.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Was he tapping into his potential etc.?

That could be said. Either way, it never showed him being amped. It wasn't warrior madness, it was just him going screw loose.

Uh, when BRB and Sif go to confront him, they admit he's caught Warrior's Madness. That's before SS fights him the first time. Nearly the entire Blood and Thunder arc, Thor's in Warrior's Madness mode.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Uh, when BRB and Sif go to confront him, they admit he's caught Warrior's Madness. That's before SS fights him the first time. Nearly the entire Blood and Thunder arc, Thor's in Warrior's Madness mode.

They "thought" it was Warrior Madness. It wasn't.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_Notwarriormadness.jpg

I have to go now. I'll be back on, later.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It wasn't warrior madness. He just lost it because of Odin and all the multiple Thor clones etc. He was loony but not amped in power.



He wasn't amped as it wasn't actual Warrior Madness. True he would be fighting rougher etc. than he normally would but it never said that his power was amped and it shouldn't be sad as it wasn't warrior madness.

Of course his mind was different.



When did he say that?

I must have missed it and he is contradicting himself.

The first time they fought during that arc, in the end he said he wasn't holding back and Thor still defeated him.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSilverSurfer2fight12.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSilverSurfer2fight13.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_ThorvsSilverSurfer2fight14.jpg

The second time they fight, he and Adam Warlock were both defeated.

Like he said, "we" cannot risk holding back this time. He was referring to the last page, when they meet Thor but did no attack.

They were talking about capturing him etc.

He was referring their encounter on the last page.

As you saw, when he first fought Thor during Blood and Thunder, he clearly said, he isn't holding back.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He wasn't amped during that arc. He was mental, and I do believe Beta Ray Bill said that, but people in berserk rages draw strength as well. Thor could accomplish what he did in Blood and Thunder, he just isn't one to unleash that type of power and not hold back on his own friends.

How was he amped?

He did not receive any upgrades. He simply went crazy.

Was he tapping into his potential etc.?

That could be said. Either way, it never showed him being amped. It wasn't warrior madness, it was just him going screw loose.


It being stated that he was drawing strength from the madness is a clear indication that he was amped beyond regular levels as far as im concerned. People in simple berserker rages dont just become much more powerful than normal and achieve things theyd NEVER be able to do regularly.

The only thing that could account for such a spike in thors power other than an amp by the madness is if he was tapping into some unseen potential which has never been seen again. However that would mean that he was only able to tap into it during that period of madness and wouldnt be able to replicate it under normal conditions







I think u meant to say surfer downed him.And yes it wasnt anything serious or permanent hence im not using that fight is an indicator of anything just sayin that in that fight in which some would want to use to say thor definitely>>>surfer, surer actually was winning(on points at least).

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- That was retconned
- Surfer "won" the fight
- Loki added his own power to the Surfer's that fight

-Meh, that so called "recton" is iffy imo. Still he was written drastically weaker in that era.

-I know about all the circumstances surrounding of the fight and im not trying to use it as proof of anything. Those circumstances are the reasons that it shouldnt be used as proof of anything for either side.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It being stated that he was drawing strength from the madness is a clear indication that he was amped beyond regular levels as far as im concerned. People in simple berserker rages dont just become much more powerful than normal and achieve things theyd NEVER be able to do regularly.

The only thing that could account for such a spike in thors power other than an amp by the madness is if he was tapping into some unseen potential which has never been seen again. However that would mean that he was only able to tap into it during that period of madness and wouldnt be able to replicate it under normal conditions

That wasn't warrior madness and there was no clear indicitation of an amp.

Beta Ray Bill said he was drawing strength from the madness. He said that the Valkyrie was driving him to paranoia, pushing him etc.

That does not mean he was being amped up in power.

He had no amping. The Valkyrie was part of Thor and was created by his mind. To him he was a companion and a women he loved. She was pushing him, and driving him to paranoia.

Thor has done amazing things when pushed for the ones he loves. When Kurse was beating on him and then put Sif in danger, Thor actually turned the tide in moments and downed Kurse himself in a few blows.

It's a great example of what happened in the arc. Thor holds back a great deal, but when pushed shows incredible strength.

Thor has stated he can call on the madness in a fight, did he not?

The true madness I believe.

Originally posted by Naija boy
I think u meant to say surfer downed him.And yes it wasnt anything serious or permanent hence im not using that fight is an indicator of anything just sayin that in that fight in which some would want to use to say thor definitely>>>surfer, surer actually was winning(on points at least).

Yes, I meant to say Silver Surfer downed Thor. He downed him after multiple blows attacks directly at Thor and even then all he could do is down him.

It didn't seem to have any serious effect etc. on Thor.

Silver Surfer wasn't winning. He simply got the upper hand and didn't really do anything after multiple attacks, while Thor was holding back a significant portion of his strength and power.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/962/madness1.th.jpg
Here reference to Warrior Madness

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8725/madness2.th.jpg
The only reason Odin did not call thor's state warrior madness it's because Odin manipulated thor's spirit hence he says it's not true warrior madness it has the same affect. Also Odin later refers to this as Madness few time

-He also believe that this will spread like warrior madness

- Thor's official bio mention his state has warrior madness

- Marvel.com refers to it as warrior madness

-beating BRB is evidence enough since they are almost in far with each other

This was not a "normal" Thor no matter how people want to spin it

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That wasn't warrior madness and there was no clear indicitation of an amp.

Beta Ray Bill said he was drawing strength from the madness. He said that the Valkyrie was driving him to paranoia, pushing him etc.

That does not mean he was being amped up in power.

He had no amping. The Valkyrie was part of Thor and was created by his mind. To him he was a companion and a women he loved. She was pushing him, and driving him to paranoia.


It wasnt "true warrior madness" but the effect was the same. This was evident in thors enhanced power level there. Beta ray bill saying that thor was drawing strength from the madness is a really unequivocal statement imo. Him drawing strength from it indicates that he the madness is making him stronger in other words giving him extra strength. Such strength isnt something thor has access to regularly.

Valkryie was pushing him to paranoia but that does not account for the vast strength increase.




When did thor knockout kurse in a few blows? It took the combined power of all the magic in both thor and BRBs hammers to ko kurse, i cant imagine thor doing it in a few blows.

Yes in the onslaught saga he did mention something of that sort but i cant recall him ever doing it



When surfer got thor down, he didnt press the advantage he just stood thor and started talking to himself for the next two pages and eventually left when he realised that he had been deceived. However if u take that fight in itself as a judge of anything(which im against in itself), Surfer had the upper hand and so was winning. thor did hold back however and surfer at that point was at a drasticaly lower level than he would be written at over the years and thats why that fight in itself doesnt prove anything.

Uhm, if you look at SS listed powers and abilities he technically should be able to beat all of them by himself.
Just read all his powers listed on marvel universe.
He can transmute things, so he could turn the yellow sun red. Down goes Superman. Being as he can move at unlimited speed (whatever that means) he could just fly into Firestorm going at, oh we'll say 99% the speed of light, and decapitate him with one hit. Then just burn up his body with cosmic blasts. Thor would be a bit harder but i dunno why. With the powers that surfer is supposed to have he shouldn't even be able to be hit by Thor, but always seems to get knocked around. Either way SS+Hal Jordan + Orion could do thor in.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Beta Ray Bill said that he draws strength from the madness, that the so called love of his pushes him to greater levels and drives him to paranoia. There is no evidence that clearly states, his stats including his strength, power, durability etc. were all greatly augmented during this arc.



No u are combining to different though processes and leaving out context. When Beta ray bill said, he draws strength from the madness, it was in response to surfers statement that the battle was already over and he did not even need surfers help. BRB thenn said, "Nay this batle is anything but over, he draws strength from the madness". End of thought process. Here he was clearly talking about thors quick recovery being as a result of the madness.

Surfer then asked him who thor was speaking to. IT was then that BRB said "A figment...........This valkryie drives thor to paranoia,he lashes out at any who might help him" So no, when BRB said he draws strength from the madness he wasnt referrring to his the paranoia that his love for valkryie was causing but rather the quickness of thors recovery



And why wouldnt it make sense? This was clearly not simply a case of thor going mad or berserk. As Odin even said, the madness would even spread to the other Asgardians like true warrior madness. How would thor simply going berserk spread to other asgardians if that was truly the totality of the problem? It wouldnt and so there was obviously more to it. Further Odin didnt say it wasnt "Warrior madness" but rather, that it wasnt true warrior madness. By this he indicates the similarities between the diseases with the difference being the cause. Odin induced the warrior madness upon thor and that was the reason it wasnt true warrior madness. This is further corroborated by the fact that thors malady would spread just like true warrior madness. Once again, if thor simply went mad as u claim, how would the madness then spread to other asgardians in the same way as true warrior madness? Further Odin was so sure it would indeed spread that he was willing to kill his own son just to protect other asgardians. Obviously it wasnt regular madness.



No its not baseless. Its based on thor performing at above regular levels in that arc. It was described as not being"true warrior madness" (as Odin induced it) but was shown as having the same effect. This was confirmed by Odin who was sure it would spread to other asgardians like true warrior madness. Thor simply going bonkers wouldnt spread to other asgardians. so there was obviously more to it than that. Also yes thor can call on the true warrior madness in battle but that is not relevant here at all ( I cant remeber thor ever actually doing it even).




Actually it doest really show anything.Knocking Kurse down is hardly as impressive or even comparable to what thor accomplished in the Blood and thunder arc. In thor 363 which iirc is thors first fight with Kurse (in Kurse form) he knocked him down with only one hammer shot. Knocking a guy down and knocking him out are two entirely different things. Also which fight between thor and kurse are u talking about even?




Thor didnt allow himself get separated from mjolnir at all. Surfer was blasting him and blasting him until he knocked thor down. While he was on the floor surfer then trapped mjolnir in an energy field. After which he monologued for about two pages. Thor eventually gets up goes and breaks the barrier. thor didnt allow anything to happen. He was holding back undoubtedly hence the irrelevance of the fight, but still in that scenario surfer was clearly winning .

The point was that Thor was affected by a madness which resembles "Warrior Madness"

They are not always correct but when there is evidence in a comic books which support Thor being stronger than he is portraited. Than a bio is a good place to look to verify that claim. Also bio are good for anything other that stats for most cases



look under for character bio select Thor

I agree but they are peers and thor would have a hard time beating BRB. Another reason why thor was stronger.

and we have never seen this Thor in comic after his madness was gone so using feat form that saga to say THor > SS is a bad idea.

I mean I might as well say Surfer = Odin by using Korvac , Enslaver sagas and his higher end showings


I don't really care what you want to call it my point was this was clearly an amped thor supported by on panel ownage of multiple top heralds in h2h like combat when his regular self struggles with Hulk

Originally posted by Naija boy
It wasnt "true warrior madness" but the effect was the same. This was evident in thors enhanced power level there. Beta ray bill saying that thor was drawing strength from the madness is a really unequivocal statement imo. Him drawing strength from it indicates that he the madness is making him stronger in other words giving him extra strength. Such strength isnt something thor has access to regularly.

Valkryie was pushing him to paranoia but that does not account for the vast strength increase.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8616/brbcu4.th.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8494/brb1kt0.th.jpg

Right there, you could easily see the diff. in Thor's power levels; before and after drawing strength from the madness.. From being taken down by BRB's blows to witstanding both direct attacks from Warlock/Surfer and on to Thanos and the watch.. A significant spike in power-levels which is not accessible normally for him less a similar sit. arises..