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All of the middle earth armies plus Sauron w/the ring vs

THE USA


Who wins?

Obviously this is a spite, but I'm trying to see what LOTR fanboy can come up w/ the best argument for middle earth.

USA with there F22 and hi tec stuff can win easy

WOW, this forum is DEAD. The only thing people post in the the annual tig party thingy.

One word: Melkor.

A few more:

Sauron. Fingolfin. Giant Eagles. Ungoliant.

Heck, the Wrights of the Barrow Downs or the Nine ringwraiths (by themselves) could take out the entire military of the United States. Being invulnerable to conventional weapons comes in handy.

(I didn't say Eru Illuvitar, but I might. Maybe.)

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
One word: Melkor.

A few more:

Sauron. Fingolfin. Giant Eagles. Ungoliant.

Heck, the Wrights of the Barrow Downs or the Nine ringwraiths (by themselves) could take out the entire military of the United States. Being invulnerable to conventional weapons comes in handy.

(I didn't say Eru Illuvitar, but I might. Maybe.)

Forgot to say: No supernatural Eru or Valor or anything like that. Just the armies. Sauron and the nine allowed, but nothing else.

The nine are vulnerable to fire.

Sauron got beaten by two "mortals" (well, an elf isn't mortal, but you know what I mean) using swords. And please, even if said sword is a "great sword crafted by the ancient blahblahblah" (shouldn't ancient swords be worse? I mean, an ancient handgun isn't as good as a modern one...), if a sword can take him down, then several missiles could surely do so.

Guns, nukes, tanks and planes

vs

Swords, shields and bows

I wonder who wins...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Forgot to say: No supernatural Eru or Valor or anything like that. Just the armies.
You're really annoying.

Even if you put those restrictions on, I still get the massive armies of Angband, the Numenorians at their height (which would have been enough to overcome the Valar) and the High elves. The combined population of good and evil armies of the entire history of the universe would be more than the number of bullets earth could produce. (AND I GET TROLLS!)

Anyway, depending upon one's definition of supernatural, I could include Dragons since they were simply corrupted versions of Natural animals. Artificial Selection FTW! I also call dibs on Wargs.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Sauron and the nine allowed, but nothing else.
The nine are vulnerable to fire.
O......K? I assume that you aren't going to allow the 'Lord of the Rings' books (or movies) as intel for earth. That would mean that we don't know about it. Flamethrowers aren't standard equipment.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Sauron got beaten by two "mortals" (well, an elf isn't mortal, but you know what I mean) using swords. And please, even if said sword is a "great sword crafted by the ancient blahblahblah" (shouldn't ancient swords be worse? I mean, an ancient handgun isn't as good as a modern one...), if a sword can take him down, then several missiles could surely do so.
That isn't what I was going to say at all.

Sauron was beat by someone lying on the ground with a broken sword. He wasn't a threat any more. The likelihood of a modern soldier cutting off an enemy's hand is incredibly small.


Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Guns, nukes, tanks and planes

vs

Swords, shields and bows more invulnerable demonic servants]

I wonder who wins...

Fixed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

You're really annoying.

Even if you put those restrictions on, I still get the massive armies of Angband, the Numenorians at their height (which would have been enough to overcome the Valar) and the High elves. The combined population of good and evil armies of the entire history of the universe would be more than the number of bullets earth could produce. (AND I GET TROLLS!)

Anyway, depending upon one's definition of supernatural, I could include Dragons since they were simply corrupted versions of Natural animals. Artificial Selection FTW! I also call dibs on Wargs.


O......K? I assume that you aren't going to allow the 'Lord of the Rings' books (or movies) as intel for earth. That would mean that we don't know about it. Flamethrowers aren't standard equipment.


That isn't what I was going to say at all.

Sauron was beat by someone lying on the ground with a broken sword. He wasn't a threat any more. The likelihood of a modern soldier cutting off an enemy's hand is incredibly small.




Fixed.

"the entire history of the universe?"

WHAT?? Ok...now I know that you're going to say that "oh look you're bending the rules again!" but when I meant all of middle earth, I didn't mean "all of middle earth that ever existed!" No. Think about it. Let's say at the end of the third age or something. And no, I'm not really "bending the rules". All of middle earth to ever exist would be way to many people.

what will trolls do? One cannon round will bring it down. Dragons? Dragons were extinct by that time and even if so I question its ability to withstand explosive rounds.

I don't know why, but I'm making a ton of "modern day earth" vs Fantasy land recently...

sorry for double post, but remember that we have:

nuclear weapons
f 22s (what's their defense for that)
abrams
etc

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"the entire history of the universe?"

WHAT?? Ok...now I know that you're going to say that "oh look you're bending the rules again!" but when I meant all of middle earth, I didn't mean "all of middle earth that ever existed!" No. Think about it. Let's say at the end of the third age or something. And no, I'm not really "bending the rules". All of middle earth to ever exist would be way to many people.

what will trolls do? One cannon round will bring it down. Dragons? Dragons were extinct by that time and even if so I question its ability to withstand explosive rounds.

I don't know why, but I'm making a ton of "modern day earth" vs Fantasy land recently...

As per my new OSC: EG policy regarding people who annoy me, trolls and socks:

Originally posted by coolmovies
USA with there F22 and hi tec stuff can win easy

Lol, F22's aren't required. Launch a few H-bombs and its over.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
As per my new OSC: EG policy regarding people who annoy me, trolls and socks:

I'm not a sock, and I don't intent to be a troll.

And no offense, but it's you that's insulting me; you always say "you're silly" or "do you seriously think that". I never insulted you in any way.

I'm not aware of any interpretation of my post that implies that you are either. I put "people who annoy me, trolls and socks." As you are obviously not a troll or a sock, you simply fall under the category of 'people who annoy me' rather than one of the more serious accusations. "You're silly" is my way of saying that I disagree, and I don't think that I have ever written the words 'do you seriously think that' as a reply to you. I don't feel insulted by you. If you think I've insulted you then I'm sorry.

*Edit:
The word you were looking for was 'intend'. 'I don't intend to be a troll.'

OK, so let's say that the USA decides to attack Gondor first. So, they just have a bunch of bombers absolutely destroy all those walled castles and such. Then, their TANKS, men w/MACHINE GUNS and HELICOPTORS start marching towards the white city. OK, so then the army garrisoned comes out to meet them (the walls are destroyed, so there's no point in garrisoning themselves in a castle that's destroyed). The infantry/cavalry charge at the Americans. The Americans open fire. The Gondorians started getting mowed down as each soldier is taking out several in a second. They'd never even get close.

Then, they invade Rohan, do the same airstrike thingy, and then engage the Rohirrim. Well, the Rohan calvarly will charge at the tanks and infantry, only to get mowed down by "magic arrows" that hit them several times a second.

Then, they invade Mordor, and win in the same way.

And so on.

And about the "Numenorians" and such, first of all they aren't in the third age (but that's my fault because I posted wrong), and the Numenorians can't withstand bullets/cannons unless if they're supernatural or something, which they aren't.

Neither can the high elves; in the movie you see elves going down after getting hit by a SWORD, let alone a BULLET or a CANNON or MISILE jor NUKE

Clearly. Pitting the mortal inhabitants, as a divided set of forces, against the modern military might of the United States is spite. As none of these powers have any supernatural assistance at all (no war mages n' such) it is equivalent to asking if Modern USA could beat the Holy Roman Empire. It is self-evident and a waste of our time.

If you go by your original post then Middle Earth has a reasonably good chance of victory, even if only by the use of Body-Shields.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Clearly. Pitting the mortal inhabitants, as a divided set of forces, against the modern military might of the United States is spite. As none of these powers have any supernatural assistance at all (no war mages n' such) it is equivalent to asking if Modern USA could beat the Holy Roman Empire. It is self-evident and a waste of our time.

If you go by your original post then Middle Earth has a reasonably good chance of victory, even if only by the use of Body-Shields.

Sauron, the Nine, Gandalf and such are allowed, but no Eru (that's just spite) or any of the Valor

The U.S Nukes Middle Earth into a pile of rubble.



Seriously, without Morgoth, this is spite.

Nuclear warfare is something Middle Earth is not going to be able to fvck with.

Tom Bombadil solos, lol

Remember, they still have Sauron/nine/Gandalf.

I'm interested to see any arguments in middle earth's favor.

Europe in the middle ages VS modern America. FIGHT!

I'm interested to see any arguments in favor of the Holy Roman Empire. See what I did there?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Europe in the middle ages VS modern America. FIGHT!

I'm interested to see any arguments in favor of the Holy Roman Empire. See what I did there?

How come almost every time you post something, it has to be insulting? Remember, LOTR universe has Sauron/The Nine/Gandalf/Trolls/etc.

That wasn't even insulting. Lyke, @ all.


It is blatantly obvious who the victor in your (amended) scenario would be. Heck, 15 guys with machine guns could've taken out most of Isengard's army at Helm's Deep. That you insist on continuing this (amended) spite thread says something about you, though I'm not sure what. That I'm still posting says something about me, although again, I'm not entirely sure what that might be.

But they have Sauron/The Nine

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

You're really annoying.

Even if you put those restrictions on, I still get the massive armies of Angband, the Numenorians at their height (which would have been enough to overcome the Valar) and the High elves. The combined population of good and evil armies of the entire history of the universe would be more than the number of bullets earth could produce. (AND I GET TROLLS!)

Anyway, depending upon one's definition of supernatural, I could include Dragons since they were simply corrupted versions of Natural animals. Artificial Selection FTW! I also call dibs on Wargs.


O......K? I assume that you aren't going to allow the 'Lord of the Rings' books (or movies) as intel for earth. That would mean that we don't know about it. Flamethrowers aren't standard equipment.


That isn't what I was going to say at all.

Sauron was beat by someone lying on the ground with a broken sword. He wasn't a threat any more. The likelihood of a modern soldier cutting off an enemy's hand is incredibly small.




Fixed.

Here, you say that trolls and high elves could help middle earth win, and you still get those! And just to be fair, I'll add in the Numenorians (and please don't say that I'm changing the thread again because it's in your favor (you favored middle earth and adding them in helps middle earth)). So really, in this thread you claim that middle earth could beat the USA w/the Numenorians/High Elves/etc, and now you're saying that this is a spite?

Basically, the thread title is USA vs All of Middle Earth. My position is that the sheer numbers of the massive armies throughout this world's history (especially during the First age and the Height of Numenor ) would overcome the United States' ability to kill. The supernatural titans (Morgoth and Manwe) would overshadow even the modern military powers.

Middle earth is high fantasy but low magic. It needs the unimaginable numbers of combatants (and dragons and whatever the dragon-machine things were that Morgoth sent after the Elves) to even have a remote chance. If you exclude the few powerful supernatural creatures of the 'verse then it isn't much different from making a thread between medieval Europe and any modern force. That is why it is spite.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Basically, the thread title is USA vs All of Middle Earth. My position is that the sheer numbers of the massive armies throughout this world's history (especially during the First age and the Height of Numenor ) would overcome the United States' ability to kill. The supernatural titans (Morgoth and Manwe) would overshadow even the modern military powers.

Middle earth is high fantasy but low magic. It needs the unimaginable numbers of combatants (and dragons and whatever the dragon-machine things were that Morgoth sent after the Elves) to even have a remote chance. If you exclude the few powerful supernatural creatures of the 'verse then it isn't much different from making a thread between medieval Europe and any modern force. That is why it is spite.

In the quote that I quoted, you said that all of middle earth to ever exist - Eru/Morgoth/etc. would still win. Well...

Al of middle earth in history minus anyone above Sauron would STILL lose. (if you were to include Eru and such, then it would be a spite in another way).

First of all, let's say that Middle Earth replaces Europe (they have a similar structure). OK then...so how exactly are they going to get to America? Sail there? And how are they going to get past the US navy (the most powerful navy to ever exist)? Modern ships can launch missiles at a range exceeding 200 miles. What are their ships going to do? Or will they win because they have "ancient ships crafted long ago"?

What are the "Numenorians at their height" going to do? Sure, they're taller, stronger, more advanced (still nothing compared to the USA) and live longer than third age men, but being taller and stronger won't let you resist a bullet. There are too few high elves, and even they can't resist bullets (although their archery skill + excellent eye sight will certainly get a few kills).

Gandalf may help as a tactitian/morale boots/strategist, but in terms of sheer fighting power, one powerful person doesn't make a difference in a WAR unless if they're superman or something. Same with Sauron, the Nine and dragons.

But comeon, who thinks middle earth will win and why? (not a rant, just a question)

If Morgoth is in this, he soloes


If not, the U.S nukes Middle Earth into a lifeless wasteland.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
If Morgoth is in this, he soloes


If not, the U.S nukes Middle Earth into a lifeless wasteland.

Sauron and anyone below him is allowed, but no Morgoth.

Then Middle Earth Loses.

Nukes win. Lord of the Rings loses. Gothmog gets cancer. America triumphs as always.

The modern US army is getting its ass handed to it in Afhganistan by a few hundred rag heads with outdated weapons and a chemistry set.

For context.

Originally posted by jaden101
The modern US army is getting its ass handed to it in Afhganistan by a few hundred rag heads with outdated weapons and a chemistry set.

For context.

"outdated weapons?" sure, they're outdated by 40 or so years, but:

1. Middle Earth is outdated by a thousand or so years.
2. The US army isn't "getting its ass handed" to it, infact numerically they are "winning" considering the death ratio
3. The terrorist hide. They don't reveal that they're the enemy until they decide to. If it were an all out war, the terrorists would get butt stomped

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

3. The terrorist hide. They don't reveal that they're the enemy until they decide to. If it were an all out war, the terrorists would get butt stomped

I'm pretty sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.

Regardless...You want a case for middle earth?

The army of the dead.

Originally posted by jaden101
The modern US army is getting its ass handed to it in Afhganistan by a few hundred rag heads with outdated weapons and a chemistry set.

For context.

I was unaware that the U.S. had lost a single engagement in Afghanistan. lol. But that somehow equates to the U.S. losing? Just because they've shown restraint and compassion for civilians and human rights doesn't mean they're losing. There's no other nation in the world right now that has a military force great enough to really threaten the U.S. (disregarding nukes, which the U.S. has the greatest missile defense system e.g. airplanes with lasers). The U.S. also has the largest military budget, and can maintain a fight longer than anyone else based on gdp. Any other single country would go broke buying the means at which to fight with. But again to reiterate, the U.S. hasn't lost any engagements in Afghanistan, the U.S. has the most sophisticated and powerful army, and Middle Earth would lose b/c we could nuke the entire place from space (I'm assuming the two planets aren't being merged into one since that wasn't stated).

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
I was unaware that the U.S. had lost a single engagement in Afghanistan. lol. But that somehow equates to the U.S. losing? Just because they've shown restraint and compassion for civilians and human rights doesn't mean they're losing. There's no other nation in the world right now that has a military force great enough to really threaten the U.S. (disregarding nukes, which the U.S. has the greatest missile defense system e.g. airplanes with lasers). The U.S. also has the largest military budget, and can maintain a fight longer than anyone else based on gdp. Any other single country would go broke buying the means at which to fight with. But again to reiterate, the U.S. hasn't lost any engagements in Afghanistan, the U.S. has the most sophisticated and powerful army, and Middle Earth would lose b/c we could nuke the entire place from space (I'm assuming the two planets aren't being merged into one since that wasn't stated).

Your view that Afghanistan even resembles a conventional war shows what little you know about what is really going on in that country. Does it not even register that even today Obama announced that he's sending 17,000 more troops to Afghanistan? Clearly not the actions of someone who believes it's a won war. You could probably argue that the US never lost too many conventional "engagements" in Vietnam. Would you claim that the US won that one too?

Here's something to think about.

1: The Afghan war has now been going on for 3 years longer than WW2.
2: There is now more Taliban than there was in 2001
3: No outside army has EVER conquered Afghanistan.

Regardless...It's an entirely seperate debate.

Again. How does a nuke kill an army that's already dead?

Originally posted by jaden101
Your view that Afghanistan even resembles a conventional war shows what little you know about what is really going on in that country. Does it not even register that even today Obama announced that he's sending 17,000 more troops to Afghanistan? Clearly not the actions of someone who believes it's a won war. You could probably argue that the US never lost too many conventional "engagements" in Vietnam. Would you claim that the US won that one too?

Here's something to think about.

1: The Afghan war has now been going on for 3 years longer than WW2.
2: There is now more Taliban than there was in 2001
3: No outside army has EVER conquered Afghanistan.

Regardless...It's an entirely seperate debate.

Again. How does a nuke kill an army that's already dead?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"outdated weapons?" sure, they're outdated by 40 or so years, but:

1. Middle Earth is outdated by a thousand or so years.
2. The US army isn't "getting its ass handed" to it, infact numerically they are "winning" considering the death ratio
3. The terrorist hide. They don't reveal that they're the enemy until they decide to. If it were an all out war, the terrorists would get butt stomped

So...You never answered anything at all there did you?

Originally posted by jaden101
The modern US army is getting its ass handed to it in Afhganistan by a few hundred rag heads with outdated weapons and a chemistry set.

For context.

The United States won the Gulf War with an immeasurable amount of ease.

For context.

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm pretty sure there's a lesson in there somewhere.

Regardless...You want a case for middle earth?

The army of the dead.

Oh yeah. Lol.


Army of the Dead Solo.

Well, I only meant live inhabitants of Middle Earth. The AotD doesn't count because it is already dead!!1111

Originally posted by Final Blaxican
The United States won the Gulf War with an immeasurable amount of ease.

For context.

The US won the gulf war did they?

You do know that 80% of all targets destroyed were taken out between a combination of laser designation by British SAS combined with bombing from about 50% of other allied planes?

Besides. For context. At the outbreak of the 2nd Iraq war, out of all the 18 allied countries and Iraq, the only country to have the same president/prime minister/leader they had at the outbreak of the 1st gulf war was Iraq. I'd put that in the win column for Saddam.

Strange thing I didn't know until recently about the 1st gulf war though is that Saudi Arabia put in the 2nd most troops against Iraq...ahead of the UK.

Originally posted by jaden101
The US won the gulf war did they?

You do know that 80% of all targets destroyed were taken out between a combination of laser designation by British SAS combined with bombing from about 50% of other allied planes?

Besides. For context. At the outbreak of the 2nd Iraq war, out of all the 18 allied countries and Iraq, the only country to have the same president/prime minister/leader they had at the outbreak of the 1st gulf war was Iraq. I'd put that in the win column for Saddam.

Strange thing I didn't know until recently about the 1st gulf war though is that Saudi Arabia put in the 2nd most troops against Iraq...ahead of the UK.

Even if the Americans got owned (which they didn't, quite the opposite in fact), any modern force > Middle Earth Weaponary

AK-47s >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Swords and shields

So, being defeated by "random terrorists" (which they never were), =/= being beaten by medieval level civilizations. Trust me, modern insurgents would waste Gondor.

Originally posted by jaden101
The US won the gulf war did they?

You do know that 80% of all targets destroyed were taken out between a combination of laser designation by British SAS combined with bombing from about 50% of other allied planes?

Besides. For context. At the outbreak of the 2nd Iraq war, out of all the 18 allied countries and Iraq, the only country to have the same president/prime minister/leader they had at the outbreak of the 1st gulf war was Iraq. I'd put that in the win column for Saddam.

Strange thing I didn't know until recently about the 1st gulf war though is that Saudi Arabia put in the 2nd most troops against Iraq...ahead of the UK.
You realize that the U.S. had almost 700k troops in the Gulf War right? So yes all the other countries combined (all 30) may have gotten in the other 50% that the U.S. didn't. But as one country alone we had the most troops and did the most work. And the U.S. can't have the same president since the gulf war ended in 1991 and a president can only serve a term of 8 years total. You sure do like to try and belittle the United States Jaden. And the only reason Saddam stayed in power is because the United States let him. He wouldn't have stayed if we had really wanted otherwise. Also check out the major battles and events that occurred during the Gulf War. The U.S. were in 9 of the major battles...the U.K. only 3. and yes saudi arabia always sends in lots of troops and donates lots of money for humanitarian aid. They're second to the U.S. in both (albeit by a very large number, but they are certainly giving a lot of effort).

Oh and again back on topic...the world as a whole has enough nukes to destroy a planet. Add in nerve gas, supersonic fighters, and everything else and i'm pretty sure all the magic in middle earth wouldn't help. I mean they almost lost to orcs carrying spears and swords despite their magic.

jaden101, do you think that middle earth would win? If so, then please post how they would win. I'm interested in your opinion (no, I'm not using sarcasm)

I'm not an expert on Lord of the Rings but i'm pretty sure the army of the dead are essentially invulnerable. Nothing from bullets to nukes would have any effect. So either they would just storm around killing everything until they'd won or they'd be the last things from middle earth standing and the US would use up everything they have trying to destroy them until they gave up. With the army of the dead having no way to travel to the US it would end up in a stalemate (unless they're able to simply march across the ocean)

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm not an expert on Lord of the Rings but i'm pretty sure the army of the dead are essentially invulnerable. Nothing from bullets to nukes would have any effect. So either they would just storm around killing everything until they'd won or they'd be the last things from middle earth standing and the US would use up everything they have trying to destroy them until they gave up. With the army of the dead having no way to travel to the US it would end up in a stalemate (unless they're able to simply march across the ocean)

First of all, what proof do you have that they're invulnerable? And if they are completely invulnerable then that means that they're above Sauron (since he's not) and thus aren't allowed.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, I only meant live inhabitants of Middle Earth. The AotD doesn't count because it is already dead!!1111

Well, you never said that it only includes those that are alive so therefore whenever a soldier of middle earth dies in the war vs USA they come back to life and fight for Middle Earth because this is ALL of middle earth HEHEHE and you can't counter that! And you're an idiot hewhoknowsnothing and you suck and I'm just insulting you for no reason!!!!!!!!

LOL but seriously please state why middle earth will win given that you seem to think that they will.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
First of all, what proof do you have that they're invulnerable? And if they are completely invulnerable then that means that they're above Sauron (since he's not) and thus aren't allowed.

Well they're already dead so they cant be killed. At least not by any conventional means and that's all the US army has. If the US killed Aragorn then there would be no way to let the army of the dead be at peace.

The army is not a single person. Each individual is above Sauron and so they should be allowed. I'm sure the entire army of Rohan is more powerful than Sauron...Should they also not be collectively allowed? Same question applies to every army.

Originally posted by jaden101
Well they're already dead so they cant be killed. At least not by any conventional means and that's all the US army has. If the US killed Aragorn then there would be no way to let the army of the dead be at peace.

The army is not a single person. Each individual is above Sauron and so they should be allowed. I'm sure the entire army of Rohan is more powerful than Sauron...Should they also not be collectively allowed? Same question applies to every army.
technically the OP didn't say you couldn't have anyone above Sauron. He said everyone including sauron with the ring. The dead army guys would be the only problem but we have plenty of priest and whatnot to exercise the demons (ace ventura reference)! So i'd say U.S. wins by sending in all their priest to get rid of the ghosties then they flood middle earth with nerve gas and w/e before nuking the entire middle earth (probably throw in some carpet bombing runs by some stealth plans just for kicks).

Originally posted by jaden101
Well they're already dead so they cant be killed. At least not by any conventional means and that's all the US army has. If the US killed Aragorn then there would be no way to let the army of the dead be at peace.

The army is not a single person. Each individual is above Sauron and so they should be allowed. I'm sure the entire army of Rohan is more powerful than Sauron...Should they also not be collectively allowed? Same question applies to every army.

No, if each one of them can't be killed then that means that each individual is above Sauron. Technically then, one ghost > all middle earth =< Sauron.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
technically the OP didn't say you couldn't have anyone above Sauron. He said everyone including sauron with the ring. The dead army guys would be the only problem but we have plenty of priest and whatnot to exercise the demons (ace ventura reference)! So i'd say U.S. wins by sending in all their priest to get rid of the ghosties then they flood middle earth with nerve gas and w/e before nuking the entire middle earth (probably throw in some carpet bombing runs by some stealth plans just for kicks).

Yeah I know, I forgot to reference it in the OP. But, in order to prevent a "Eru solos!" thing, anyone above Sauron isn't allowed, but Sauron and anyone below him (in power) IS allowed.

So basically you're going to find a way to gimp the middle earth side so the US wins whatever anyone says.



Does the legend not state that the only way for them to be "exorcised" is for Isildor or one of his heirs to release them from their curse? I don't think priests would work.

Originally posted by jaden101
So basically you're going to find a way to gimp the middle earth side so the US wins whatever anyone says.



Does the legend not state that the only way for them to be "exorcised" is for Isildor or one of his heirs to release them from their curse? I don't think priests would work.

We capture Aragorn and convince him to release them from their curse in exchange for us not nuking Gondor.

But it doesn't matter, because

a) the army of the dead won't fight us unless if they had an incentive to
b) the rest of middle earth even with Sauron gets pwned in a zero casualty win for the USA
c) they aren't allowed anyway

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No, if each one of them can't be killed then that means that each individual is above Sauron. Technically then, one ghost > all middle earth =< Sauron.



Someone edited that...WHO IS IT

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
We capture Aragorn and convince him to release them from their curse in exchange for us not nuking Gondor.

But it doesn't matter, because

a) the army of the dead won't fight us unless if they had an incentive to
b) the rest of middle earth even with Sauron gets pwned in a zero casualty win for the USA
c) they aren't allowed anyway

They aren't allowed because they'd mean that the US would lose...That's the only reason you're making. Every time someone puts an argument forward that means middle earth would stand a chance, you change the rules to gimp them.

You can even tell it's the only outcome you'll accept from the 1st word of your post "We" meaning you're siding with the US and the fact that you're the thread starter means you can constantly change who is and isn't allowed to fight simply to achieve the outcome you want.

You're pathetic.

Originally posted by jaden101
They aren't allowed because they'd mean that the US would lose...That's the only reason you're making. Every time someone puts an argument forward that means middle earth would stand a chance, you change the rules to gimp them.

You can even tell it's the only outcome you'll accept from the 1st word of your post "We" meaning you're siding with the US and the fact that you're the thread starter means you can constantly change who is and isn't allowed to fight simply to achieve the outcome you want.

You're pathetic.

How did I change the rules. BEFORE you talked about the army of the dead, I stated that only those at or below Sauron's level are allowed. Try and read before accusing people.

The US wins.

If you allow dragons and all the mythical beings from Middle Earth, they would do some damage, but still lose (with the possible exception of the undead army, which, conveniently, has now been disallowed).

Personally, based on your reasoning, I think the undead army should be allowed. Each individual undead soldier is no where near as powerful as Sauron. As an army, sure, but in small numbers, no. Therefore, they are not as powerful and should be included.

Furthermore, to say that only beings below Sauron are allowed because that would allow Eru is just not sound. Eru is the equivalent of the monotheistic christian god of our world, which means if he steps into the picture, so does our christian god, which would end the war with neither side winning.

Besides, why limit one side without limiting the other. If they can't have any being above Sauron, why is the US still allowed Nukes? As long as nukes are on the table, Middle Earth can't win. Admittedly, without them, they don't stand much of a chance, but they shouldn't even be on the table to begin with.

Putting that aside, short of the undead army, there is simply no way Middle Earth can win. Even if they had more dragons than they had in all the history of Middle Earth, they just don't have the equipment/magic to deal with modern air strikes, bombs, and weapons.

The US wins, unless Tom Bombadil is allowed, then he solos.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
How did I change the rules. BEFORE you talked about the army of the dead, I stated that only those at or below Sauron's level are allowed. Try and read before accusing people.

Well let's see.

You opened with



Then when someone said Melkor you changed it to



So when someone takes armies from other time frames in middle earth other than the lord of the rings setting you change your mind again to



thus putting another limit on what middle earth can call upon.

So then I mention that army of the dead and you make up some nonsense about them not being allowed even though your original post clearly stated "all the armies plus Sauron"

You're just making a fool of yourself now.

Originally posted by jaden101
Well let's see.

You opened with



Then when someone said Melkor you changed it to



So when someone takes armies from other time frames in middle earth other than the lord of the rings setting you change your mind again to



thus putting another limit on what middle earth can call upon.

So then I mention that army of the dead and you make up some nonsense about them not being allowed even though your original post clearly stated "all the armies plus Sauron"

You're just making a fool of yourself now.

I know that I opened wrong, and I didn't deny that. I said that I stated the rule of no one above Sauron BEFORE (not necessarily in the OP) you posted the army of the dead thing.

So if someone says "oh Roman Empire vs Russia who wins" would it be fair for someone in favor of Rome to say "oh well Roman Empire also gets all of the soldiers that it ever had in it's history" and then "oh you never specified that it's only from one time in history"? And if you really have a problem with that, then fine: this is all of middle earth in history except for anyone above Sauron. USA still wins, and if you think otherwise then please explain how.

Ummm...show me where I said that I claimed to have stated the rule IN THE OP.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I know that I opened wrong, and I didn't deny that. I said that I stated the rule of no one above Sauron BEFORE (not necessarily in the OP) you posted the army of the dead thing.
The Army of the Dead is not above Sauron in the LotR innate power level scheme. At all: Sauron is a fallen Miar (or elf?) second only to Morgoth in terms of power. He was second in command of evil at evil's height. The Army is just a bunch of dead guys.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

So if someone says "oh Roman Empire vs Russia who wins" would it be fair for someone in favor of Rome to say "oh well Roman Empire also gets all of the soldiers that it ever had in it's history" and then "oh you never specified that it's only from one time in history"?
If they said 'all of the mediterranean cultures and mythological pantheons against russia' and then added 'oh wait no majik users and you only get the weakest nations' then it would look like you had an agenda. That's a problem.


Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

And if you really have a problem with that, then fine: this is all of middle earth in history except for anyone above Sauron. USA still wins, and if you think otherwise then please explain how.

This means that the people of Middle Earth have the magic of Numenor and the first age, they have more people than the US has bullets and they have Wizards. This is within reach, and a open military confrontation in which nukes are ignored (for whatever reason- maybe the US wants to keep Middle Earth for itself) they have a good chance for victory.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

The Army of the Dead is not above Sauron in the LotR innate power level scheme. At all: Sauron is a fallen Miar (or elf?) second only to Morgoth in terms of power. He was second in command of evil at evil's height. The Army is just a bunch of dead guys.

If they said 'all of the mediterranean cultures and mythological pantheons against russia' and then added 'oh wait no majik users and you only get the weakest nations' then it would look like you had an agenda. That's a problem.




This means that the people of Middle Earth have the magic of Numenor and the first age, they have more people than the US has bullets and they have Wizards. This is within reach, and a open military confrontation in which nukes are ignored (for whatever reason- maybe the US wants to keep Middle Earth for itself) they have a good chance for victory.

Are they 100% immortal? If yes, then they are above Sauron. If no, then the USA can deal w/them. And let's say that middle earth takes the place of europe (they have a similar structure). How do they beat the USA then? Or even if they are right next to each other, how do they beat tanks?

OK, what about this:

The USA is on the edge of the middle earth world, and both sides are trying to get at eachother. They are about the length of half of the atlantic away. Who wins? (if this senario is too spitish for you, then Middle earth takes the place of South America and in between the two is unpopulated (no Mexico or anything, I mean it's there, but not populated in this senario)

I demand this thread be closed because the creator set up an intentional spite match by gimping Middle Earth so it stands no chance.

Closed

I'm sure there must be a forum in KMC where this kind of threads fit