Scathan vs. Tiamut

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id369
In light of recent events. Yeah you know this had to happen.

LDHZenkai
The Fulcrum said tiamut was the strongest celestial ever.

guy222
Celestial fan here

Tiamut = The Fulcrum

Who's the Fulcrum? TOAA hmm

The Communicator

occultdestroyer
As of current continuity, Tiamut is the strongest celestial.

As for the match, I have no idea.
If Tiamut is believed to be stronger than LT as of now, then he should win.

D_Dude1210
Isn't Tiamut a celestial from our current reality and Scathan is a Celestial from a future reality? What if there are now several of the future Celestials that has achieved Tiamut's level of awareness?

Knowsbleed33
Scathan.

guy222
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Isn't Tiamut a celestial from our current reality and Scathan is a Celestial from a future reality? What if there are now several of the future Celestials that has achieved Tiamut's level of awareness?

Tiamut - Earth-616

Scathan - Earth-691

Slaanesh
Fulcrum created Scathan..

Tiamut is now = Fucrum..

so..i think Tiamut > Scathan

Knowsbleed33
Who said the Fulcrum created Scathan?

iceman24567
Nobody

occultdestroyer
Well, Fulcrum created the Celestials.

iceman24567
He seeded the Universe not the Ominverse to assume he created every single Celestial threw out the Omiverse is assuming too much eek!

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Who said the Fulcrum created Scathan?

do we assume someone else create Scathan??the Fulcrum did say he created the Celestial..

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Slaanesh
the Fulcrum did say he created the Celestial..

No he didn't.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
No he didn't.

he didn't?? laughing i must have read it wrong than..

LDHZenkai
He says the Celestials are his devices. Pretty sure that means he made them. http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4862/fulcrum.jpg

Slaanesh
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
He says the Celestials are his devices. Pretty sure that means he made them.

ahh..there it is..now i remember why i think the Fulcrum created the Celestial big grin

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Slaanesh
ahh..there it is..now i remember why i think the Fulcrum created the Celestial big grin
Yep they seem to be some super advanced robotic type of life form. The reason he's going to see the Fulcrum is because he thinks his programmings malfunctioning (that's a really brief summary of a bunch of stuff). thanks to guy222 for the scans smile

guy222
Ur welcome friend

Check ur PM

Xplosive
Originally posted by guy222
Celestial fan here

Tiamut = The Fulcrum

Who's the Fulcrum? TOAA hmm

The Communicator

If Fulcrum would be TOAA, then he wouldn't say such nonsense for Tiamut to rival his own power. No way.

Only power to say it was TOAA within the MU and that was Thanos with THOTI and we know what Thanos was doing with it.

I haven't seen close doing for Tiamut to win against Scathan. I have to see more from him to assume that he can defeat Scathan and to live up to words.

guy222
I didn't write the book good friend

Two brothers did

Marvel: The End to me is still silly to believe. But it happened. Just like Sue 'killing' Exitar

The Brothers tale have the Fulcrum All knowing and All powerful. Who else is he. TOAA has appeared in FF and Spider-Man(homeless man)
Seems now as the Fulcrum. woot

Now u know, I am a Celestial fan and its a good day when the book came out big grin

And the whole Eternity created the Celestials through mediation been debunked just as Starlin had Thanos used the Heart to kill Ziran. The Brothers wrote Celestials cannot be killed only contained

Its always up to the writers and editors

Tiamut = The Fulcrum will be talked about for years. Mystery again only adds to the Celestials mystique

Good Morning and goodnite. I'll read ur response when I get to work

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Xplosive
If Fulcrum would be TOAA, then he wouldn't say such nonsense for Tiamut to rival his own power. No way.

Only power to say it was TOAA within the MU and that was Thanos with THOTI and we know what Thanos was doing with it.

I haven't seen close doing for Tiamut to win against Scathan. I have to see more from him to assume that he can defeat Scathan and to live up to words.
I concur.
Scathan's single feat was enough to trounce even most (if not all) of the higher level Abstracts in the MU.

Enyalus
I read the line about him being 'proven a power equal to my own' as him finally gaining his own free will and conscience, and in that sense he had the same power (ability) as TOAA. Not that he's equal in power to TOAA. Otherwise, why would he have needed help in dealing with the Horde?


Anyway, probably Scathan. Though I like Tiamut more.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Enyalus
I read the line about him being 'proven a power equal to my own' as him finally gaining his own free will and conscience, and in that sense he had the same power (ability) as TOAA. Not that he's equal in power to TOAA. Otherwise, why would he have needed help in dealing with the Horde?


Anyway, probably Scathan. Though I like Tiamut more.

This is exactly how I viewed what was said. He had power enough to BREAK THE BOND and thus in that respect rival the Fulcrum's power in that particular sense not in a overall power sense. I mean come on now that's like saying SS = Galactus his creator. There is no way Tiamut is equal to TOAA and we don't even know that Fulcrum is the One above all. Boasting and such has happened over and over again. I'll wait till we see who fulcrum really is but I highly doubt hes the TOAA. Lastly, again I viewed that scan gaining free will and conscience not power that is kinda silly to think it's power if it's really the TOAA

Enyalus
I do think the Fulcrum is TOAA. I think it was in the previous issue that Tiamut states the Fulcrum is all powerful and all knowing. And had ignored his request for assistance.


...Perhaps that was in this issue. But w/e. If a celestial talks about something being 'all powerful and all knowing' I think it should be taken seriously, considering the nature of the Celestials themselves.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Enyalus
I do think the Fulcrum is TOAA. I think it was in the previous issue that Tiamut states the Fulcrum is all powerful and all knowing. And had ignored his request for assistance.


...Perhaps that was in this issue. But w/e. If a celestial talks about something being 'all powerful and all knowing' I think it should be taken seriously, considering the nature of the Celestials themselves.

Yes but hasn't Eternity been given such references? Thanos with the IG was given much similar references. Shoot even Galactus has been given countless hyperbolic references. However, when they are called God's, all powerful etc etc we don't consider them the TOAA or rival "it" in power do we?

Enyalus
Thanos doesn't need the IG to be all powerful, Kurupt. Don't make me pimpslap you.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Enyalus
Thanos doesn't need the IG to be all powerful, Kurupt. Don't make me pimpslap you.

LOL LOL. Very true my friend.

occultdestroyer
Thanos has a brain in each of his cell, and a chin that rivals no other

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Enyalus
I read the line about him being 'proven a power equal to my own' as him finally gaining his own free will and conscience, and in that sense he had the same power (ability) as TOAA. Not that he's equal in power to TOAA. Otherwise, why would he have needed help in dealing with the Horde?


Anyway, probably Scathan. Though I like Tiamut more.
Because by the time he had realized that he didn't have to do what The Fulcrum said and could make his own decisions the Horde had already killed 1/2 of earth. And The Fulcrum says he has a power equal to his own. Taking it any other way is taking it out of context. Tiamut takes off his helmet and looks to be the same type of being as The Fulcrum underneath. p.s. - the horde are agents of the Fulcrum, doing his divine bidding by culling Earth. That's why Tiamut asked The Fulcrum to stop them, he didn't feel it was his place to do so.

Galan007
Tiamut looks way cooler, therefore, he wins. It's that simple.

guy222
woot

KillAll
got scans? i'm not up to date on my celestials lol.

Galan007
Originally posted by KillAll
got scans? i'm not up to date on my celestials lol. Scathan:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/43/pro3.th.jpg


Tiamut:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8162/fulcrum2.th.jpg



Hence my initial reply:Originally posted by Galan007
Tiamut looks way cooler, therefore, he wins. It's that simple.

thumb up

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by KillAll
got scans? i'm not up to date on my celestials lol. http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4719/tiamut.jpg
that's tiamut.

id369
Its official Tiamut became new spirit of vengeance.

xJLxKing
The scan Galan posted shows that he views Tiamut as an equal because he question him and other didn't. Well that's what I think he meant

guy222
Gaiman's run

http://g.imagehost.org/t/0270/e-06-019.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0424/e-06-020.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0834/e-06-021.jpg

Mr Master
The Fulcrum is not TOAA. (there's no proof of any kind that even alludes to this notion)

In fact, by him stating Taimut rivals him in any sense of the word certifies this.

TOAA doesn't deal with his drawings (the Omniverse and its inhabitants)
in that fashion either.

The Fulcrum is indeed obviously very powerful,
but the Fulcrum is just another drawing of TOAA's.

I came to this conclusion due to the nature of the Fulcrum's conversation with Taimut,
in comparison with TOAA's talk with the FF, Spidey and Supreme.

KuRuPT Thanosi
That is exactly my point. Fulcrum can't be the TOAA and certainly a celestial can't rival him in power. TOAA is the pen behind everything and that certainly can't be said about any celestial whether it's Tiamut or anybody. It's quite clear to me and others what Fulcrum meant was that he was equal in power because he questioned things will others didn't. That is one particular aspect of power. I see nothing to suggest that all of a sudden Tiamut can create anything or do anything it chooses. Where you guys get that from is beyond me.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Fulcrum is not TOAA. (there's no proof of any kind that even alludes to this notion)

In fact, by him stating Taimut rivals him in any sense of the word certifies this.

TOAA doesn't deal with his drawings (the Omniverse and its inhabitants)
in that fashion either.

The Fulcrum is indeed obviously very powerful,
but the Fulcrum is just another drawing of TOAA's.

I came to this conclusion due to the nature of the Fulcrum's conversation with Taimut,
in comparison with TOAA's talk with the FF, Spidey and Supreme.

Going by the way the writer makes him speak as a way of determining if he's TOAA is not a good way to do so. If you go by what The Fulcrum says in the comic he's above LT. And if you go by what LT says then that makes him TOAA. The Dreaming Celestial, who is the strongest one (stronger than Scathan), calls The Fulcrum "All-powerful, and all-knowing" and says that he's what holds all of reality together. That points to him being more TOAA than the way the writers portrayed his speech.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Going by the way the writer makes him speak as a way of determining if he's TOAA is not a good way to do so. If you go by what The Fulcrum says in the comic he's above LT. And if you go by what LT says then that makes him TOAA. The Dreaming Celestial, who is the strongest one (stronger than Scathan), calls The Fulcrum "All-powerful, and all-knowing" and says that he's what holds all of reality together. That points to him being more TOAA than the way the writers portrayed his speech.

and yet your taking him saying to Tiamut that he's equal in power because he QUESTIONED things while others did to mean he's just as power. He's only talking about the questioning/conscience aspect of things. It's really ludicris to think now that Tiamut can do anything it pleases the "pen" like the TOAA. He even says he's all knowing and all powerful which is thus ABOVE HIM. Why you guys take these huge leaps and make a celestial equal to TOAA is beyond me. He was only talking about him breaking the bonds and questioning things.

Mindset
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Going by the way the writer makes him speak as a way of determining if he's TOAA is not a good way to do so. If you go by what The Fulcrum says in the comic he's above LT. And if you go by what LT says then that makes him TOAA. The Dreaming Celestial, who is the strongest one (stronger than Scathan), calls The Fulcrum "All-powerful, and all-knowing" and says that he's what holds all of reality together. That points to him being more TOAA than the way the writers portrayed his speech. How is Tiamut stronger than Scathan?

h1a8
What is the purpose of the LT when there are beings above him besides TOAA? LT can't govern the multiverse over beings he can't control. Did TOAA fire him or something?

Mindset
Laid off, TOAA is outsourcing.

Enyalus
No one's above the LT save for TOAA...

kgkg
Originally posted by h1a8
What is the purpose of the LT when there are beings above him besides TOAA? LT can't govern the multiverse over beings he can't control. Did TOAA fire him or something? LT quit he wasn't get paid enough for all his trouble

Mindset
Originally posted by Enyalus
No one's above the LT save for TOAA... Doom

Enyalus
Originally posted by Mindset
Doom

We previously agreed that Doom was beyond tiers, remember?

Mindset
Oh yea, you're right, my bad

Mr Master
Originally posted by LDHZenkai

Going by the way the writer makes him speak as a way of determining if he's TOAA is not a good way to do so.
I disagree.

And that's exactly how I know this Fulcrum is not TOAA,
by the expression in the conversations.

TOAA speaks like a human representing himself through an avatar,
while this Taimut and this Fulcrum believe they're really "al knowing" or whatever.

TOAA knows they (there's two of them that make up the title)
are NOT "all knowing" ...

Why?

Because TOAA is a representative avatar of a creative but limited mind (real human being)
and this is how he's always been portrayed on panel. (4 times)

The artist half of TOAA stated on panel that he did not know what happens next,
until he draws it,
and besides that,
he can't even do that until the ideas are given to him by his "collaborator" (the writer)
Originally posted by LDHZenkai

If you go by what The Fulcrum says in the comic he's above LT.
And if you go by what LT says then that makes him TOAA.
no expression

Nothing in the entire new Eternals run suggest such a ridiculous notion.
Originally posted by LDHZenkai

The Dreaming Celestial, who is the strongest one (stronger than Scathan), calls The Fulcrum "All-powerful, and all-knowing"
and says that he's what holds all of reality together.
No proof of any kind to suggest Taimut or the Fulcrum are above Scathan or LT.

Being called "all powerful" and "all knowing"
(big deal, the LT not only has been called that, (by the narrator/writer himself)
but it's even advertised in the powers description in his bio,
meh, the IG alone makes one absolutely omnipotent, so again, meh)

"Holds all reality together?" ... laughing out loud
(heck, Galactus holds all reality together just by existing)


This Fulcrum is being over-hyped imo.
Originally posted by LDHZenkai

That points to him being more TOAA than the way the writers portrayed his speech.
no

Slaanesh
for those who said Scathan win..why do u guys think that??is it because he beat Protege so u guys put him above LT??if Scathan can be above LT..why not Tiamut??

Mindset
Because Scathan has feats showing his power?


I think Scathan is below LT though, so. smile

id369
Why is Tiamut stronger then Scathan? Because Fulcrum said so.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Mindset
Because Scathan has feats showing his power?


I think Scathan is below LT though, so. smile

i think Scathan is below LT too..and that means him beating Protege is nonsense cuz even LT can't beat Protege..if he really did..that puts him above LT..so..what feat of him showing his power are u talking about??

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Enyalus
I do think the Fulcrum is TOAA. I think it was in the previous issue that Tiamut states the Fulcrum is all powerful and all knowing. And had ignored his request for assistance.


...Perhaps that was in this issue. But w/e. If a celestial talks about something being 'all powerful and all knowing' I think it should be taken seriously, considering the nature of the Celestials themselves.

This doesn't mean anything. Other beings have been called omnipotent or omniscient or both in the past who are clearly not TOAA. I remember in Quasar Gruenwald referred to almost all cosmic characters as being "omnipotent". That concept gets thrown around entirely too much in comics.

Enyalus
I have but one comment to that:

**** Gruenwald. Always trying to slip mini retcons in everywhere. **** that dead bastard.


no expression

Knowsbleed33
That's just picking-nits. It's been thrown around by many writers many times. In Adventures of the X-Men #12 the LT was referred to as being all-powerful and all-knowing, does that make him TOAA?

Enyalus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
That's just picking-nits. It's been thrown around by many writers many times. In Adventures of the X-Men #12 the LT was referred to as being all-powerful and all-knowing, does that make him TOAA?

...His bios refer to him like that, too. Giving the LT omnipotence and omniscience. So, he is all powerful and all knowing.


...Anywho, I see your point and I don't know why I initially said what I did, anyway. I don't think the Fulcrum is TOAA.

no expression I was at work when I typed that and clearly wasn't paying attention. My apologies.

Knowsbleed33
thumb up

LDHZenkai
I still don't see how people can't understand this. The Celestials follow what The Fulcrum told them to do. They refer to The Fulcrum as all knowing and All powerful. Scathan's power is right up there with LT. And it's stated on panel that Scathan isn't the strongest Celestial, Tiamut is. It's stated Tiamut is as powerful as The Fulcrum (the one who made the celestials). It's stated The Fulcrum is the essence that holds reality in it's place. Show me a scan where it says that about any other Cosmic beings. And in case you are unaware of what essence means:
1 a: the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence. So the Fulcrum is the ultimate nature of reality. And another way to tell that Tiamut is the strongest Celestial...The Fulcrum says so. As i've already shown scans of. Don't know how any of you are arguing about whats printed. The Fulcrum says other celestials have come close and gained greater power than what they initially had but that Tiamut is the only one to reach his level.

Enyalus
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
I still don't see how people can't understand this. The Celestials follow what The Fulcrum told them to do. They refer to The Fulcrum as all knowing and All powerful. Scathan's power is right up there with LT. And it's stated on panel that Scathan isn't the strongest Celestial, Tiamut is.

See, Scathan's from the future...over a thousand years into the future. So in this current, 616 timeline, Scathan might not even be born yet. So yeah, Tiamut is the strongest Celestial in the current MU. Scathan is the strongest in the future, 691 timeline.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
I still don't see how people can't understand this. The Celestials follow what The Fulcrum told them to do. They refer to The Fulcrum as all knowing and All powerful. Scathan's power is right up there with LT. And it's stated on panel that Scathan isn't the strongest Celestial, Tiamut is. It's stated Tiamut is as powerful as The Fulcrum (the one who made the celestials). It's stated The Fulcrum is the essence that holds reality in it's place. Show me a scan where it says that about any other Cosmic beings. And in case you are unaware of what essence means:
1 a: the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b: the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence. So the Fulcrum is the ultimate nature of reality. And another way to tell that Tiamut is the strongest Celestial...The Fulcrum says so. As i've already shown scans of. Don't know how any of you are arguing about whats printed. The Fulcrum says other celestials have come close and gained greater power than what they initially had but that Tiamut is the only one to reach his level.

First and foremost you're ASSUMING the Fulcrum is TOAA and secondly Tiamut has no feats that match Scathans. Scathan was proven to be more powerful than another "all-powerful, all-knowing being" the LT.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Enyalus
See, Scathan's from the future...over a thousand years into the future. So in this current, 616 timeline, Scathan might not even be born yet. So yeah, Tiamut is the strongest Celestial in the current MU. Scathan is the strongest in the future, 691 timeline.
They're in a place outside of time when he tells Tiamut that he's the most powerful Celestial. And he says ever....if you exist outside of time and you use the ever i think that means in all of existence.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
First and foremost you're ASSUMING the Fulcrum is TOAA and secondly Tiamut has no feats that match Scathans. Scathan was proven to be more powerful than another "all-powerful, all-knowing being" the LT.

what??u think Scathan > LT..doesn't that makes him TOAA..

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
First and foremost you're ASSUMING the Fulcrum is TOAA and secondly Tiamut has no feats that match Scathans. Scathan was proven to be more powerful than another "all-powerful, all-knowing being" the LT.
Well we all know The Fulcrum is above all of the Celestials except for tiamut. It says it on panel. Don't know how that fact is evading your comprehension. Should I post the scans again?

Enyalus
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
They're in a place outside of time when he tells Tiamut that he's the most powerful Celestial. And he says ever....if you exist outside of time and you use the ever i think that means in all of existence.

Hm. I can see that...

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Well we all know The Fulcrum is above all of the Celestials except for tiamut. It says it on panel. Don't know how that fact is evading your comprehension. Should I post the scans again?

What difference do you think that makes? Scathan>>>>All other Celestials.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What difference do you think that makes? Scathan>>>>All other Celestials.

Plus, Scathan was never beaten by Ashema and the FF. Hehe.



EDIT: Meh, Doom helped with that victory though, so it might not be such a low feat.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Slaanesh
what??u think Scathan > LT..doesn't that makes him TOAA..

I know he's > the LT. He defeated a being more powerful than the LT. The LT needed to supplement his own power just to pass judgement on Protege.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What difference do you think that makes? Scathan>>>>All other Celestials.
Not according to the guy who made them. But that's cool. You continue to argue about what was said on panel without telling me what makes it not true.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I know he's > the LT. He defeated a being more powerful than the LT. The LT needed to supplement his own power just to pass judgement on Protege.

so..u r ok with Scathan being more powerful than the LT..but not the Fulcrum and Tiamut??

the Fulcrum says that the Celestials are his device..Scathan is a Celestial..

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Not according to the guy who made them. But that's cool. You continue to argue about what was said on panel without telling me what makes it not true.

Again, you're assuming that the Fulcrum is TOAA. There's no proof to support this.

Fact: Scathan has done more ON PANEL than Tiamut. Tiamut has done, well, nothing.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Slaanesh
so..u r ok with Scathan being more powerful than the LT..but not the Fulcrum and Tiamut??

the Fulcrum says that the Celestials are his device..Scathan is a Celestial..

Do you honestly believe Scathan is your average Celestial? He's not eve referred to as just "Celestial" in that story.

As to am I ok with it? Sure, why not? While it does say the LT is 2nd only to TOAA, does it say he has to be?

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Again, you're assuming that the Fulcrum is TOAA. There's no proof to support this.

Fact: Scathan has done more ON PANEL than Tiamut. Tiamut has done, well, nothing.
Even if we assume he's not TOAA he's still the guy who made the Celestials and he says Tiamut is the strongest of them ever....The Fulcrum exist outside of time...so when he says ever he really means EVER. Tiamuts greatest feat? The guy who made the celestials said he was the only one of them on his level. Seems like a pretty good one to me.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Even if we assume he's not TOAA he's still the guy who made the Celestials and he says Tiamut is the strongest of them ever....The Fulcrum exist outside of time...so when he says ever he really means EVER. Tiamuts greatest feat? The guy who made the celestials said he was the only one of them on his level. Seems like a pretty good one to me.

Fulcrum exsists now. Scathan exsists 1.000+ yrs in the future, we have no clue what happens between now and then.

That would be an interesting feat if you believe the Fulcrum>The LT. Stating that just because the Fulcrum created the Celestials makes him something special is going out a limb. Before now it was stated that Eternity created the Celestials.

LT>>>Eternity.

occultdestroyer
And LT > Fulcrum, unless Marvel says otherwise

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Fulcrum exsists now. Scathan exsists 1.000+ yrs in the future, we have no clue what happens between now and then.

That would be an interesting feat if you believe the Fulcrum>The LT. Stating that just because the Fulcrum created the Celestials makes him something special is going out a limb. Before now it was stated that Eternity created the Celestials.

LT>>>Eternity.
Fulcrum exist in all of time. Not just in one point. He can rewrite history if he see's fit. So the fact that Scathan exists 1,000 years in the future doesn't matter to someone who doesn't perceive time like that. He lives outside of time, bar tending to dead people until they decide to quit existing. Then they tell him they're ready to go...then they do. But it doenst really matter if The Fulcrum is above LT. It's never stated that Scathan was, just implied. It is stated however that Tiamut is above Scathan...because he's above EVERY CELESTIAL EVER! I don't know how many different ways I can say that before you understand what it means.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
And LT > Fulcrum, unless Marvel says otherwise

thumb up

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Do you honestly believe Scathan is your average Celestial? He's not eve referred to as just "Celestial" in that story.

As to am I ok with it? Sure, why not? While it does say the LT is 2nd only to TOAA, does it say he has to be?

doesn't change the fact that he is a Celestial..and he answer to the Fulcrum..means Fulcrum > Scathan...and Tiamut = Falcrum..is that so hard to believe..

and don't say he's from the future so he's deferent..time line doesn't mean anything to people like LT or other cosmic on that level..

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Fulcrum exist in all of time. Not just in one point. He can rewrite history if he see's fit. So the fact that Scathan exists 1,000 years in the future doesn't matter to someone who doesn't perceive time like that. He lives outside of time, bar tending to dead people until they decide to quit existing. Then they tell him they're ready to go...then they do. But it doenst really matter if The Fulcrum is above LT. It's never stated that Scathan was, just implied. It is stated however that Tiamut is above Scathan...because he's above EVERY CELESTIAL EVER! I don't know how many different ways I can say that before you understand what it means.

facepalm

Scathan>>>Tiamut because Feats>>>No feats. That's the way it works on battle boards my son.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Slaanesh
doesn't change the fact that he is a Celestial..and he answer to the Fulcrum..means Fulcrum > Scathan...and Tiamut = Falcrum..is that so hard to believe..

and don't say he's from the future so he's deferent..time line doesn't mean anything to people like LT or other cosmic on that level..

Do you actually read comics?

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Do you actually read comics?

i actually do..so what??

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Do you actually read comics?
what exactly did slanessh say that made it seem as if he didn't read comics/

iceman24567
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
what exactly did slanessh say that made it seem as if he didn't read comics/ Everything.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by iceman24567
Everything.

eek!

Knowsbleed33
iceman's not wrong.

Let me try and make this clear using the simplest method I can think of, ABC logic.

Scathan is > Protege who is > the LT who is > the Fulcrum/Tiamut.

Any questions?

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
iceman's not wrong.

Let me try and make this clear using the simplest method I can think of, ABC logic.

Scathan is > Protege who is > the LT who is > the Fulcrum/Tiamut.

Any questions?

Any on panel proof showing that scathan is above the guy who created them? Because I can give you some that shows he's not. Unless we're just going by opinions now and not evidence?

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
iceman's not wrong.

Let me try and make this clear using the simplest method I can think of, ABC logic.

Scathan is > Protege who is > the LT who is > the Fulcrum/Tiamut.

Any questions?

i have...why is the LT > Fulcrum when Scathan who is > LT is created by the Fulcrum??

Knowsbleed33
::sigh:: What leads you to believe the Fulcrum is possibly > the LT?

Also, the Fulcrum is but one of many theories as to who created the Celestials.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
facepalm

Scathan>>>Tiamut because Feats>>>No feats. That's the way it works on battle boards my son.
Oh and I have already posted a scan of Tiamuts best feat. It's the one where the guy who built Scathan says that Tiamut is the only one to be at his level. How does that not include Scathan when the guy who built Scathan says it?

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Any on panel proof showing that scathan is above the guy who created them? Because I can give you some that shows he's not. Unless we're just going by opinions now and not evidence?

Please, post this non-exsistant information.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Oh and I have already posted a scan of Tiamuts best feat. It's the one where the guy who built Scathan says that Tiamut is the only one to be at his level. How does that not include Scathan when the guy who built Scathan says it?

What part of Scathan is more powerful than the LT who is more powerful than the Fulcrum are YOU not getting?

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
::sigh:: What leads you to believe the Fulcrum is possibly > the LT?

Also, the Fulcrum is but one of many theories as to who created the Celestials.

hey..i don't think the Fulcrum > LT...i don't even think Scathan > LT..u r the one who said Scathan > LT..so..i just use what u said no expression

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Slaanesh
hey..i don't think the Fulcrum > LT...i don't even think Scathan > LT..u r the one who said Scathan > LT..so..i just use what u said no expression

How can you not when on panel evidence in a CANON comic book says Scathan > the LT.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Please, post this non-exsistant information.
Proof
Now notice where he says that Tiamut is just as powerful as he is now. And that he is the only celestial to EVER achieve that? He says others have come close ::cough:messedcathan::cough:: but that Tiamut is the only one. Do you need more proof? I can try and get the writers number and call them if you want? That way we can make sure they meant what they WROTE ON PANEL.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
How can you not when on panel evidence in a CANON comic book says Scathan > the LT.

and on panel evidence in a CANON comic book also says that Fulcrum created the Celestial..and that include Scathan..so..Fulcrum should be > LT if we to believe that Scathan > LT

Knowsbleed33
Scathan went beyond that level.

Also, No where does it say he created the Celestials in that scan

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Slaanesh
and on panel evidence in a CANON comic book also says that Fulcrum created the Celestial..and that include Scathan..so..Fulcrum should be > LT if we to believe that Scathan > LT

Where?

Also, it was said Eternity created the Celestials in a canon book. How is this anymore valid?

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Scathan went beyond that level.

Also, No where does it say he created the Celestials in that scan
Nope he just says he seeded immeasureable amounts of planets and that they are his devices. I guess that could mean something else. Oh and there is the fact that the Celestials always refer to him as their supreme being.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Oh and there is the fact that the Celestials always refer to him as their supreme being.

Proof? Because I know for a fact not one Celestial says this.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Where?

Also, it was said Eternity created the Celestials in a canon book. How is this anymore valid?
Wasn't it kubix who said he thought eternity made the celestials? If not please post the scan of eternity saying it made them.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Wasn't it kubix who said he thought eternity made the celestials? If not please post the scan of eternity saying it made them.

Eternity states that he created the Celestials through intense meditation or something of that nature.

I'll hunt down the scan, it's on here somewhere I'm sure.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Eternity states that he created the Celestials through intense meditation or something of that nature.

I'll hunt down the scan, it's on here somewhere I'm sure.
i found it for ya actually. http://www.geocities.com/brenni_au/Surfer.jpg
It says Eternity mediated and then the celestials showed up. That could mean just that they felt Eternitys thoughts and showed up to see what's up. If they could read the Beyonders mind they could read eternitys. I don't see how Eternity could have made them though when they've been seen to be born from the black galaxy thing and when they're devices of the fulcrum and not eternity.

Knowsbleed33
You're speculating. All it says is that Tiamut was his device. It doesn't say all Celestials nor does it say him even created the Celestials. All it says is that he'd been looking for a companion since the big crunch and that Tiamut filled that role.

Here, I found the scan plus a 2nd scan that suggest Eternity is responsible for the creation of the Celestials.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6736/surferrf5.th.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9868/2004779674754127803fs.th.jpg

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You're speculating. All it says is that Tiamut was his device. It doesn't say all Celestials nor does it say him even created the Celestials. All it says is that he'd been looking for a companion since the big crunch and that Tiamut filled that role.

Here, I found the scan plus a 2nd scan that suggest Eternity is responsible for the creation of the Celestials.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6736/surferrf5.th.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9868/2004779674754127803fs.th.jpg
The first scan doesn't prove that eternity made them. The second one eternity says that they're part of someones dream. Then the fulcrum says they're his devices. So i'd assume that means they're his dream. Eternity also says that maybe everything is someone elses dream or w/e. So maybe Eternity is part of The Fulcrums Dream. The Fulcrum is what hold all reality together.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Not according to the guy who made them. But that's cool. You continue to argue about what was said on panel without telling me what makes it not true.

I think your understanding of things is lacking... Think about what your saying.....

1. Your assuming the Fulcrum is TOAA - nothing more then assumption based on some hyperbole. Words like all knowing, all powerful etc etc were thrown around. Those words have been used to describe many many different people.... Eternity, LT, Thanos with the IG and even Galactus. So, taking that to literally mean he's the TOAA is nothing more then an assumption TRUE OR FALSE?

2. Even if he is TOAA your then saying Tiamut is his equal... Now your notion and assumption are reaching epic levels. So, now your saying Tiamut can do anything it wants and is essentially the "pen" behind everything in Marvel. He's above the LT and can do anything is chooses. That is so left field it's not even funny to think that a celestial a celestial is now equal to the TOAA. That is the ludicris notion your pushing right?

3. Now again if the TOAA is the fulcrum he never said Tiamut was equal to him in all his power did he? He was talking about ONE particular aspect of power and that was the questioning things when other never did and being "outside"of time. So, again was there anything mentioned about Tiamut being just as powerful and as all knowing as TOAA. No the Fulcrum is clearing only talking about Tiamut questioning things and being the most powerful celestial. Furthermore, doesn't Tiamut call the Fulcrum all knowing and all powerful... thus doesn't that tell you that he's above Tiamut clearly. He didn't talk to him as his equal he talked to Fulcrum as if he was above him true or false?

This hyperbole and assumptions your pushing while ignoring context is simply amusing. Your actually pushing the notion that a celestial is now equal to TOAA and is now the "pen" behind everyting marvel. Does that sound like a good stance buddy?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

You're speculating. All it says is that Tiamut was his device. It doesn't say all Celestials nor does it say him even created the Celestials. All it says is that he'd been looking for a companion since the big crunch and that Tiamut filled that role.

Here, I found the scan plus a 2nd scan that suggest Eternity is responsible for the creation of the Celestials.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6736/surferrf5.th.jpghttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9868/2004779674754127803fs.th.jpg
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think your understanding of things is lacking... Think about what your saying.....

1. Your assuming the Fulcrum is TOAA - nothing more then assumption based on some hyperbole. Words like all knowing, all powerful etc etc were thrown around. Those words have been used to describe many many different people.... Eternity, LT, Thanos with the IG and even Galactus. So, taking that to literally mean he's the TOAA is nothing more then an assumption TRUE OR FALSE?

2. Even if he is TOAA your then saying Tiamut is his equal... Now your notion and assumption are reaching epic levels. So, now your saying Tiamut can do anything it wants and is essentially the "pen" behind everything in Marvel. He's above the LT and can do anything is chooses. That is so left field it's not even funny to think that a celestial a celestial is now equal to the TOAA. That is the ludicris notion your pushing right?

3. Now again if the TOAA is the fulcrum he never said Tiamut was equal to him in all his power did he? He was talking about ONE particular aspect of power and that was the questioning things when other never did and being "outside"of time. So, again was there anything mentioned about Tiamut being just as powerful and as all knowing as TOAA. No the Fulcrum is clearing only talking about Tiamut questioning things and being the most powerful celestial. Furthermore, doesn't Tiamut call the Fulcrum all knowing and all powerful... thus doesn't that tell you that he's above Tiamut clearly. He didn't talk to him as his equal he talked to Fulcrum as if he was above him true or false?

This hyperbole and assumptions your pushing while ignoring context is simply amusing. Your actually pushing the notion that a celestial is now equal to TOAA and is now the "pen" behind everyting marvel. Does that sound like a good stance buddy?
thumb up ... I see you boys are handling business here.

This Fulcrum discussion has wandered into comedy.

The Fulcrum created the Celestials (which isn't even a concrete fact)
The Fulcrum is "all powerful" ... "all knowing" (whoopi fn doo ... so is ... meh I could name several)
The Fulcrum holds all reality together. (so now he's Galactus)

laughing ... to all three statements.

shokosugi
The Fulcrum = Galactus

guy222
The Fulcrum isn't Galactus

Like I said in the other thread. Lets all wait and see when the Celestials return

Did anyone see the boy at the end of the book like me

Tenebrous
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
The first scan doesn't prove that eternity made them. The second one eternity says that they're part of someones dream. Then the fulcrum says they're his devices. So i'd assume that means they're his dream. Eternity also says that maybe everything is someone elses dream or w/e. So maybe Eternity is part of The Fulcrums Dream. The Fulcrum is what hold all reality together.

The first scan says:

"And from this meditation came the MANIFESTATION - as the Celestials APPEARED from the nebulous spheres"

What is this sentence? It means, Eternity meditated on some concept or concepts. After an indeterminate amount of time, the meditation was manifested (the dictionary definition of manifest: ": to make evident or certain by showing or displaying." Manifestation is the act of manifesting. Manifesting means "one of the forms in which an individual is manifested, or materialized."wink in the form of the Celestials, who suddenly appeared from an intangible, immaterial source ("nebulous spheres"wink.

Eternity mediated, and during/after the meditation, materialized the Celestials, from an immaterial source. That is literally what the scan says.

"Device" can either mean
1) a plan, technique, or strategy
2) an instrument designed to fit a specific function or serve a particular use or purpose.

The ambiguity in the Fulcrum's statement is whether he actually designed the device "you are my device" or he is in possession of the device "you are my device."

However the Fulcrum says "you are no longer my device." If we take it to mean the Fulcrum actually designed or created the Celestials, then the Fulcrum literally is saying "I designed you, but because you have questioned me, you are no longer my design" which is awkward.

If we take it to mean the Fulcrum is in possession of the device, then the Fulcrum is literally saying "I used you for a specific plan/purpose , but because you questioned me, you are no longer going to be used for my plan/used as my instrument to execute my plan " i.e. "you are no longer my device."

guy222
Never been a fan of the whole Eternity created the Celestials thru meditation

The scan from HR is a lil better

Now we have the Fulcrum

Who knows friends

But I like it big grin

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up ... I see you boys are handling business here.

This Fulcrum discussion has wandered into comedy.

The Fulcrum created the Celestials (which isn't even a concrete fact)
The Fulcrum is "all powerful" ... "all knowing" (whoopi fn doo ... so is ... meh I could name several)
The Fulcrum holds all reality together. (so now he's Galactus)

laughing ... to all three statements.

So sad. On panel the Celestials...who are pretty up there, consider him all knowing and all powerful. It also says the Fulcrum is what holds all reality together. Galactus doesnt do that. If galactus dies something comes that destroys reality as we know it. It never states that he is anything like what it says The Fulcrum is. But like i said keep on taking what is said on panel and just pretending like it isn't clearly stated...

LDHZenkai
Also, like i said already, it doesn't matter what The Fulcrum really is. What we do know is that the Celestials look to him as a superior being. And that superior being said Tiamut was the greatest of the celestials to ever exist. How on earth can that be translated into "he's the greatest EVER next to scathan"?

Nihilist
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Also, like i said already, it doesn't matter what The Fulcrum really is. What we do know is that the Celestials look to him as a superior being. And that superior being said Tiamut was the greatest of the celestials to ever exist. How on earth can that be translated into "he's the greatest EVER next to scathan"? becuase scathan is from the future and tiamut hasnt done anything compared to what scathan did/will do.

guy222
Tiamut is the only one to question the Fulcrum

He wins

woot

Nihilist
Originally posted by guy222
Tiamut is the only one to question the Fulcrum

He wins

woot wasnt sersi *technically* questioning *him* at the bar.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Nihilist
becuase scathan is from the future and tiamut hasnt done anything compared to what scathan did/will do.
The Fulcrum exist outside of time and is called all knowing. I'm pretty sure he knew about Scathan when he said that. And i think tiamut fighting off millions of The Horde is pretty impressive...being as they seem to be equal to the celestials (they're the antithesis of the Celestials). The horde are the locust of the universe and cull planets where deviants life force has become too much. They absorb that energy or give it back to the fulcrum.

guy222
Originally posted by Nihilist
wasnt sersi *technically* questioning *him* at the bar.

She's not Tiamut big grin

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Nihilist
wasnt sersi *technically* questioning *him* at the bar.
She was asking a question about where she was. tiamut was asking a question about The Fulcrums grand design. Big difference i think.

Nihilist
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
She was asking a question about where she was. tiamut was asking a question about The Fulcrums grand design. Big difference i think. i know, i was just messin with guy.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Nihilist
i know, i was just messin with guy. Happy Dance

guy222
Originally posted by Nihilist
i know, i was just messin with guy.

big grin

Knowsbleed33
Scathan still.

Handily.

Mindset
I just read Eternals 9, good read.

I still don't see how Fulcrum could be the TOAA or equal to him, or how Tiamut is stronger than Scathan.

guy222
It is a great read

Knowsbleed33
I was a fan of the entire arc.

Xplosive
Originally posted by Mindset
I still don't see how Fulcrum could be the TOAA or equal to him

And your thinking is right, because he is not TOAA. And there is a big difference how was avatar of TOAA portrayed when he was in comics compared to Fulcrum.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Xplosive
And your thinking is right, because he is not TOAA.
Doesn't matter if he is or not. He's still the one the Celestials look up to as all knowing and all powerful. And he still said Tiamut was equal to him in power. I'd assume the all knowing guy that the celestials listen to (who exist outside of time) would know about Scathan....and he never said Scathan was his equal. He did say there were other Celestials that came close (probably TOAA, Exitar, Scathan) but that Tiamut was the most powerful. I dunno why there's still reply's coming in about this. Oh well. It was a great story (the new eternals arc) :-D Two Thumbs UP!

guy222
Celestial fan for many years

Mr Master
yawn

The LT spins the destiny of the creation in one hand,
while holding the power of two Megaverses in the other.

The LT is "all knowing" and "all powerful" (omnipotent & omniscient)

The LT once was going to replace the 616 Reality with the Ultimate Universe.
(ridiculously uber feat)

The LT withstood then nullified a fursious attack from Warlock/IG.

The LT stomped Slorioth in one move.

The LT lasted the longest against Thanos/THOTI, not Taimut or the Fulcrum.
(and the entire race was there ... uhmm, the ENTIRE race!)

The LT according to official Marvel Handbooks in second only to TOAA in current continuity,
and on panel is the most powerful entity Kubik can comprehend as well.


Now, 1000 years into the future,
and a child named Protege is engineered to be GOD!

Protege literally becomes
the LT/Eternity/Hawkgod/Beyonder/Mephisto/Malevolence & GOTG.

Scathan comes along and stomps Protege with a gesture.

So Scathan > LivingTribunal/Eternity/Hawkgod/Beyonder/Mephisto/Malevolence
& GOTG.


Now what has Taimut done
or this Fulcrum that would suggest they are even near what the LT has done?

Oh right ... nothing.

And the LT is only one of Protege's powers,
and Protege got curbstomped by Scathan.

hum

guy222
Gotta love LT and Celestials

I do

woot

Mr Master
Originally posted by LDHZenkai

I'd assume the all knowing guy that the celestials listen to (who exist outside of time) would know about Scathan....
and he never said Scathan was his equal.
Existing outside of time means nothing,
heck even Warlock can exist outside of time.
on top of that, again, Scathan can exist outside of time as well,
and the LT can shift in and out of time just as easily.

Fact is though,
when the Fulcrum made his statement about Taimut,
he made it withIN time, so that statement is bound by time.

Fact also is,
that we've seen what Scathan can do,
we know what the LT's bio confirmed concerning Scathan,
we know what the Celestials own 07-08 bio confirmed concerning Scathan.

As for the Fulcrum,
nothing significant has been depicted on panel or in any handbook,
only a hyperbolic statement, that's not even special at that.

As for Taimut, he's actually done more than this Fulcrum,
and yet Taimut has done nothing to suggest he's anything more than a flea to the LT.

Scathan > LT


btw. Eternity creating the Celestials is more factual
when considering the on panel evidence,
than the vague ambiguous allusion presented in the Eternals series.

shokosugi
why is there even debate? Scathan wins this.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Doesn't matter if he is or not. He's still the one the Celestials look up to as all knowing and all powerful. And he still said Tiamut was equal to him in power. I'd assume the all knowing guy that the celestials listen to (who exist outside of time) would know about Scathan....and he never said Scathan was his equal. He did say there were other Celestials that came close (probably TOAA, Exitar, Scathan) but that Tiamut was the most powerful. I dunno why there's still reply's coming in about this. Oh well. It was a great story (the new eternals arc) :-D Two Thumbs UP!

Why do you insist on saying the Celestials when the Fulcrum was talking about Tiamut and Tiamut only?

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Why do you insist on saying the Celestials when the Fulcrum was talking about Tiamut and Tiamut only?
Did you actually read the issue? "I have watched other Celestials change and evolve into beings of Greater power. Some have come close. But you Dreaming Celestial ...You are the only being to question me... to become and individual." So here we have him saying he's seen the other celestials evolve and become really powerful, but they all still follow his orders. Or is there another way to interpret him saying that Tiamut is the ONLY being to question him? If you believe what the writers put on panel there then not even Scathan or LT have questioned the Fulcrum. Unless we're excluding them from every being? And when they were talking they were in the place you go when you die...which i would imagine to be outside of time. then The Fulcrum says... "You are no longer my Device, in shattering that bond, you have proven a power equal to my own".... so there we have him saying that Tiamut has power equal to his own. He's not saying that Tiamuts indivduality is what makes his power equal or anything like that. He says Tiamuts power is equal to his. I'm not the one assuming anything or inferring anything. I'm just posting what is said on panel. On panel when they're having a conversation in a place that exists outside of time The Fulcrum says Tiamut is the most powerful. To say that he for some reason didn't know about Scathan makes absolutely no sense. How does the guy who exists outside of time and who is called all knowing not know about Scathan ? The Fulcrum is referred to as the very essence of what holds reality in it's place. so wouldn't that mean he knows about the reality in which scathan was alive in? Or are we to assume he doesn't despite the fact he's all knowing?

Endless Mike
Going with Scathan

Mr Master
Originally posted by LDHZenkai

Did you actually read the issue? "I have watched other Celestials change and evolve into beings of Greater power. Some have come close. But you Dreaming Celestial ...You are the only being to question me... to become and individual." So here we have him saying he's seen the other celestials evolve and become really powerful, but they all still follow his orders. Or is there another way to interpret him saying that Tiamut is the ONLY being to question him?

If you believe what the writers put on panel there
then not even Scathan or LT have questioned the Fulcrum.

Unless we're excluding them from every being? And when they were talking they were in the place you go when you die...which i would imagine to be outside of time. then The Fulcrum says... "You are no longer my Device, in shattering that bond, you have proven a power equal to my own".... so there we have him saying that Tiamut has power equal to his own. He's not saying that Tiamuts indivduality is what makes his power equal or anything like that. He says Tiamuts power is equal to his. I'm not the one assuming anything or inferring anything. I'm just posting what is said on panel. On panel when they're having a conversation in a place that exists outside of time The Fulcrum says Tiamut is the most powerful. To say that he for some reason didn't know about Scathan makes absolutely no sense. How does the guy who exists outside of time and who is called all knowing not know about Scathan ? The Fulcrum is referred to as the very essence of what holds reality in it's place. so wouldn't that mean he knows about the reality in which scathan was alive in? Or are we to assume he doesn't despite the fact he's all knowing?
I can see now you've been sold.

I stopped at the part where you believe this silly Fulcrum is above the LT now. laughing

Discussion went from partially interesting to ludicrous.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Mr Master
I can see now you've been sold.

I stopped at the part where you believe this silly Fulcrum is above the LT now. laughing

Discussion went from partially interesting to ludicrous.
Oh man you're right MM. I forgot in the forum rules it said you were supposed to disbelieve on panel statements from canon sources. My bad. I retract everything I said.

p.s.- i just chipped my effing tooth..at 4a.m.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Did you actually read the issue? "I have watched other Celestials change and evolve into beings of Greater power. Some have come close. But you Dreaming Celestial ...You are the only being to question me... to become and individual." So here we have him saying he's seen the other celestials evolve and become really powerful, but they all still follow his orders. Or is there another way to interpret him saying that Tiamut is the ONLY being to question him? If you believe what the writers put on panel there then not even Scathan or LT have questioned the Fulcrum. Unless we're excluding them from every being? And when they were talking they were in the place you go when you die...which i would imagine to be outside of time. then The Fulcrum says... "You are no longer my Device, in shattering that bond, you have proven a power equal to my own".... so there we have him saying that Tiamut has power equal to his own. He's not saying that Tiamuts indivduality is what makes his power equal or anything like that. He says Tiamuts power is equal to his. I'm not the one assuming anything or inferring anything. I'm just posting what is said on panel. On panel when they're having a conversation in a place that exists outside of time The Fulcrum says Tiamut is the most powerful. To say that he for some reason didn't know about Scathan makes absolutely no sense. How does the guy who exists outside of time and who is called all knowing not know about Scathan ? The Fulcrum is referred to as the very essence of what holds reality in it's place. so wouldn't that mean he knows about the reality in which scathan was alive in? Or are we to assume he doesn't despite the fact he's all knowing?

Good grief man, all you do is assume. There is absolutely no on panel proof as to what the Fulcrum really is. The only suggestion to his power is when he undid what the Horde did to planet earth.

You assume that the Fulcrum created all Celestials, yet this is never mentioned, not once.

You assume that the Fulcrum is greater than the LT and the other high end abstracts, yet there's no proof of this, none.

You assume the Fulcrum is supreme because Tiamut said it was all powerful and all knowing, so what? Need I remind you how many times different beings have been referred to as being omnipotent or omniscient or both?

Scathan has something both Tiamut and the Fulcrum don't, on panel evidence to prove how powerful he is. How can this confuse you?

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Good grief man, all you do is assume. There is absolutely no on panel proof as to what the Fulcrum really is. The only suggestion to his power is when he undid what the Horde did to planet earth.

You assume that the Fulcrum created all Celestials, yet this is never mentioned, not once.

You assume that the Fulcrum is greater than the LT and the other high end abstracts, yet there's no proof of this, none.

You assume the Fulcrum is supreme because Tiamut said it was all powerful and all knowing, so what? Need I remind you how many times different beings have been referred to as being omnipotent or omniscient or both?

Scathan has something both Tiamut and the Fulcrum don't, on panel evidence to prove how powerful he is. How can this confuse you?
Apparently you didn't read my post either. I said it doesn't matter what The Fulcrum is. If you go by whats said on panel then he's all knowing (that means he knows about Scathan). The Fulcrum could be the Janitor of the multiverse for all i care. All I know is that Tiamut (a celestial who even several other celestials couldn't kill) calls him all knowing and powerful. And then i know that the Fulcrum says he's the most powerful of them. Where in any of that is an assumption i've made and not something that is directly said on panel? Because i can post the scans AGAIN if you want? This time if need be i can hi-lite the exact lines i already quoted?

Mr Master
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Apparently you didn't read my post either. I said it doesn't matter what The Fulcrum is. If you go by whats said on panel then he's all knowing (that means he knows about Scathan). The Fulcrum could be the Janitor of the multiverse for all i care. All I know is that Tiamut (a celestial who even several other celestials couldn't kill) calls him all knowing and powerful. And then i know that the Fulcrum says he's the most powerful of them. Where in any of that is an assumption i've made and not something that is directly said on panel? Because i can post the scans AGAIN if you want? This time if need be i can hi-lite the exact lines i already quoted?
Still with the hyperbolic statement?

So, should I post when the Omniscient/Omnipotent entity known as the LT,
stated that ANY and ALL Realities rest on Protege's shoulders?

Yep, any and all ...

Yet, Protege got stomped by Scathan's gesture.

On Panel statement and action combined,
also confirmed in both the LT's bio and the Celestials.

But I guess you'll just come back with,
Taimut said, the Fulcrum is ... yippy yap.

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by Mr Master
Still with the hyperbolic statement?

So, should I post when the Omniscient/Omnipotent entity known as the LT,
stated that ANY and ALL Realities rest on Protege's shoulders?

Yep, any and all ...

Yet, Protege got stomped by Scathan's gesture.

On Panel statement and action combined,
also confirmed in both the LT's bio and the Celestials.

But I guess you'll just come back with,
Taimut said, the Fulcrum is ... yippy yap.
You can post where LT said that if you want. Tiamut didnt say the fulcrum was reality...he said he was the very essence of what holds it in it's place. But yea you can post that if you want...it's not really helping you at all but go for it. And hyperbolic means im exaggerating what's stated. I'm posting exactly what's stated. So if it's been exaggerated you should talk to the writers. And the difference in what's been stated in the past and whats been stated now is this is what they're making the story now. So it doesn't matter what it was then if this is what they're saying it is now. But you can keep posting these replies where you don't address anything i've actually posted. That's cool.

guy222
Brothers tale of the Celestials and the Fulcrum

Hopefully, the Celestials return again

Another writer will prolly write something different. Maybe not

Its a mystery I like

LDHZenkai
Originally posted by guy222
Brothers tale of the Celestials and the Fulcrum

Hopefully, the Celestials return again

Another writer will prolly write something different. Maybe not

Its a mystery I like
agreed. they left it so vague you have to love it! I wish my new sig would show up sad

guy222
I love it

Huge Celestial fan

Xplosive
I understand LDHZenkai and I wouldn't say he's been exaggerating, because he is saying everything that's been stated. But you are taking too much literally of what been said (for many being was said, omnipotent and many things, but they were far from that).
Logically, I can't say Fulcrum or Tiamut>LT just because of words and one showing of Fulcrum. On the other side, everything that has been said could be confirmed in the future and it's not out of the option that Fulcrum could be>LT. But now and logically that cannot be said.
But if that is expected and Fulcrum and therefore also Tiamut are above LT, then I will easily accept it. There were more beings that went above LT in power and I wouldn't be surprised, if also Wanda at her peak would beat LT.

About Fulcrum saying that Tiamut is the most powerful Celestial ever. Well, it's known that not all comics all always written with continuity and some things are also forgotten. Scathan had only one appearance and was never even mentioned after that anymore.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Jesus LDH answer me these questions...

1. Isn't it true the Fulcrum said that because Tiamut questioned things and thus broke the bond he showed A power equal to his own? Was he not talking about one particular aspect of power?

2. By on panel proof.. Did Tiamut call the Fulcrum all knowing and all powerful? Wouldn't that clearly seem to indicate that he's above Tiamut? Tiamut wasn't talking to him as an equal who is also all knowing and all powerful. He was talking to him as if he was well above him. Which further goes with question number one. You don't think it's possible he was saying you have equal power for one particular aspect of power.. questioning/conscience not overall power? Is that not possible?

3. He was ONLY saying Tiamut is the most powerful celestial he wasn't including other abstracts like LT or Eternity etc etc? He only called him the most powerful celestial not the most powerful being.

4. Haven't we seen statements such as most powerful, all knowing many times in marvel and your making an assumption that he's the TOAA and also an assumption that he's above the LT when really we only have one hyperbolic statement and not much more.

guy222
Originally posted by Xplosive
I understand LDHZenkai and I wouldn't say he's been exaggerating, because he is saying everything that's been stated. But you are taking too much literally of what been said (for many being was said, omnipotent and many things, but they were far from that).
Logically, I can't say Fulcrum or Tiamut>LT just because of words and one showing of Fulcrum. On the other side, everything that has been said could be confirmed in the future and it's not out of the option that Fulcrum could be>LT. But now and logically that cannot be said.
But if that is expected and Fulcrum and therefore also Tiamut are above LT, then I will easily accept it. There were more beings that went above LT in power and I wouldn't be surprised, if also Wanda at her peak would beat LT.

About Fulcrum saying that Tiamut is the most powerful Celestial ever. Well, it's known that not all comics all always written with continuity and some things are also forgotten. Scathan had only one appearance and was never even mentioned after that anymore.

thumb up

id369
Originally posted by Mr Master
Still with the hyperbolic statement?

So, should I post when the Omniscient/Omnipotent entity known as the LT,
stated that ANY and ALL Realities rest on Protege's shoulders?

Yep, any and all ...

Yet, Protege got stomped by Scathan's gesture.

On Panel statement and action combined,
also confirmed in both the LT's bio and the Celestials.

But I guess you'll just come back with,
Taimut said, the Fulcrum is ... yippy yap.

The Celestials, Horde, and the Watchers serve the Fulcrum. If the Fulcrum deems Tiamut the most power, because he evolved. Its not up to us the readers dictate otherwise.

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